have you ever had a conversation like

this one publicly no I think it'll be

fun all Sprouse from Disney Channels The

Sweet Life is acting Cody Riverdale Big

Daddy friends you're my hero thank you

sweet pea were you pushed into acting I

would hardly call it pushing because I

was eight months old single mom two twin

boys put food on the table so the choice

never really existed you guys are big

stars now yeah

my mother was living vicariously through

the success of her children a person

that grapples with mental illness drug

abuse but primarily narcissism

a wicked narcissism

but that selfishness is something that

the legal system also observed and said

that she was unfit the court had to step

in

your relationship with acting and the

entertainment industry it's been a

journey I loved being on stage I didn't

like the [ __ ] that came with it this

industry encourages the worst qualities

of you selfishness greed you know

authenticity and vulnerability are not

really encouraged trades how do you feel

about that you're given these lessons in

your life so that you can triumph over

them and use the traits that you've

acquired from those lessons over time to

carve out who you are I've got two

pictures here then what are the words

unsaid to this individual

[Music]

I'd probably kick his ass

before we get into this episode just

wanted to say thank you first and

foremost for being part of this

community

um the team here at the diver Co is now

almost 30 people and that's literally

because you watch and you subscribe and

you um leave comments and you like the

videos that this Show's been able to

grow and it's the greatest honor of my

life to sit here with these incredible

people and just selfishly ask them

questions that I'm pondering over or

worrying about in my life but this is

just the beginning for the day of this

year we've got big big plans to scale

this show and to every corner of the

world and to to diversify Our Guest

selection and that's enabled by you by a

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to watch so if there's one thing you

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us continue to do what we do it's just

to hit the Subscribe button if you like

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you watch these episodes please just hit

that subscribe button means the world

let's get on with it

[Music]

code yes okay much of what I do here is

I'm especially at the start of these

conversations is I'm trying to

understand somebody you know I get to

see the Finish Line I get to see their

achievements the behaviors their

personality during my research and I'm

always trying you know this is

ultimately why this podcast came to be

on one hand in the name you hear the

Diary of a CEO and it was really me

trying to show that there's this other

side of these people including myself

there's this other side that we don't

often talk about and on the other hand

just from a very personal perspective

I've come to learn I'm so interested in

like human beings why they do what they

do and what causes them to do what they

do at the very core of it

um what do I need to know about you when

if we Zoom back to your earliest years

to understand the most influential

things moments influences that caused

you to be the complex inspiring

individual you are today hmm

I mean I'm really glad I'm doing this

podcast with you at this time in my life

because for the last year and a half

I've really been thinking about

questions like this what what is it that

that still compels me uh into certain

professional Pursuits or artistic

Pursuits now

um I think when I was younger it was uh

it was definitely a financial pressure

there were kind of two kinds of kids uh

working kids really there was the kids

that were doing it to put food on the

table for Mommy and Daddy and then like

the thespian children you know like like

Mommy I want to go into acting and they

would show up and it would be this huge

gap between philosophies

um between like yeah man it's a job and

like no this is a this is a craft this

is you know this is an art

uh and those kids kind of showed up

around 14 and for me I think

I had trained to kind of workaholism

since I was a child uh in order to one

feel valued by my environment

uh both immediate family and audience in

very many cases that has stuck with me a

work ethic that has stuck with me now to

this day like I I do not feel good when

I am not working and I think a lot of

people can say that uh and that's

something I've been trying to unpack

over the over the last year and a half

is what would happen if I just simply

stepped away for good and enjoyed my

life which is really the purpose of why

we're all here

um would I be content with sitting down

and fishing and growing my own

vegetables and you know living

sustainably or would I get so

disenfranchised and bored that I would

have to take back to the Arts in some

way or another and I think I think the

pressure of my upbringing really

compelled me to continue doing what I am

today I cannot live without the Arts I

mean I I cannot live without performance

or expression in some kind because it's

truly all I know and have known since I

was eight months old

since you were eight months old yeah you

hold the record for being

the guest on this show that started

working the earliest tell me tell me

Well to be fair I don't know if we can

call it work I don't I don't believe I

cued into Consciousness until about like

10 years ago

um when you're a baby you have that kind

of lantern Consciousness where only you

know whatever exists is only in your

immediate purview and then as you age

you know when you start to become less

present you're like wow I'm an adult and

I feel like [ __ ] all the time

um

so I don't know about if I I perceived

it as work but it certainly infused

within me a kind of work ethic as I have

aged

um but yeah it established a

relationship with work

it did

I mean it started for me financially uh

single mom two twin boys put food on the

table she is still able to be a mother

while we can still pursue a sort of uh

Improvement of our lifestyle and and

very many ways she was living

vicariously through the success of her

children but I think uh it's certainly

developed a relationship to

uh professionalism much earlier than

almost anyone else I know

will you will you use the word pushed

earlier were you pushed into acting in

your view well I didn't you know I would

hardly call it pushing because I was

eight months old I don't even think I

would I knew you know I was on screen I

don't remember much of like the early

early the diaper commercials and things

like that so the choice never really

existed

I was there

that's it how do you feel about that

I think gratefulness and ungratefulness

can exist simultaneously and I I am

tremendously grateful of the financial

stability I have acquired now as a 30

year old and being able to say yeah I'm

okay now

um

I think in many ways I traded sort of

the lantern consciousness of Youth and

sort of the Carefree presentedness of

Youth for financial stability that I

would come to appreciate as an older man

but

um

I don't regret too much

I don't I I think if I were to sit here

and talk about regretting my my

childhood within the industry I think

that would be silly it toughened the

hell out of both my brother and I and

many kids that go through that same

thing

um but I'm grateful I'm grateful for the

financial stability of it yeah and I

also am grateful to have done it in a

time where you could get your Gladwell

10 000 hours in anonymously you know if

you did a crappy direct DVD movie Just

for kicks I'm looking at you for anyone

who knows this uh if you did your crappy

soccer movie

it would go to the back of Blockbuster

and no one would see it now with social

media I mean

there's no way that you can

that you can cut your teeth in silence

anymore everyone sees your portfolio

globally and you're expected to put it

on display I find it you know I I feel

quite afraid for young actors now who

have to hone their craft over time but

do it to a global audience that sucks

you've got a you've got a twin brother

yes um 15 minutes older than you yes as

he always likes to yes help people in my

face

your parents you mentioned single mother

I am as I read through your story I saw

a ton of similarities between the way

you described your relationship with

your with your mother and the way that I

often describe the relationship still to

this day with my mother can you tell me

about both your your mother and your

father and the journey you kind of went

on I know at five years old roughly they

divorced sure I I don't remember the

exact timeline of divorce

um but I remember only having one memory

of them being together uh when I was

very very young and then from that point

on my father was in Switzerland and my

mother was in LA he would eventually

move out to LA in order to try and

repair the family

uh but my mother was

um still is uh the kind of tortured

artist type she struggled with uh in

very many ways her place in the world

she she

I think she found a tremendous amount of

self-identity through motherhood and

tried to turn it into a profitable

business at the same time which for

identical twin boys going into acting is

sort of economic loophole through labor

laws that can be incredibly profitable

um so that's what she did and as I've

thought about it it seemed like to me it

made a lot of financial sense to her to

put us into acting it made I think it's

satisfied some sort of narcissism that

she probably had in order to be

recognized as this sort of artistic

success

uh she was a wonderful painter so she

always wanted sort of artistic

legitimacy and validation

But as time went on

uh

I think the entertainment industry just

kind of broke her you know this this

this industry in very many ways

it

encourages the worst qualities of you

as a person

um

narcissism

selfishness

greed a lot of these things that we have

come to know is practically cardinal

sins

um it's one of those things that uh

encouraged a kind of selfishness that

was

uh directly opposed to the very

fundamental idea of motherhood

and As I Grew Older in my case the court

had to step in and Rend my brother and I

towards our father who's an incredible

guy

um but that selfishness is something

that the legal system also observed and

uh said that she was unfit

and I think as I've aged and I've looked

back on a lot of the circumstances of

that entire environment I see a person

that grapples with

mental illness drug abuse

but primarily narcissism

a wicked narcissism the inability to to

perceive anything outside your own

perspective would probably be the

biggest sickness I see

and uh

that just doesn't work with me and the

mother that just doesn't work with being

in a family in general

you know when

when it rains it rains on everyone's

roofs

that's how it goes it takes a village

man

and selfishness

that is encouraged very much like I said

from the industry just doesn't really

work

it doesn't really work for being a

mother

it's easy to look at this that situation

objectively and go okay just don't speak

to them but this is your mother yeah

that's something I've dealt with a lot

too

that's my question which is like how do

you how have you tried to separate the

two there's so many people listening to

this right now who have a member of

their family that is a toxic influence

in whatever way and they struggle with

this idea that it's a big one yeah right

like because they're blood I have to

persist with the relationship I have to

tolerate it whereas if this was someone

who was I just met on the street or in

school I would [ __ ] I would I would

chop up later straight away right

have you dealt with with the duality of

both it being blood but also being

unacceptable Behavior yeah it's a great

question

um

I don't think you ever fully reconcile

it I think it's the difference between

this like kind of immortal abstract

connection to someone this thing that we

call love this this energy not to sound

to California you know but this this

this sort of a mortal connection between

a mother and a child or a father and a

son or or whatever it is

um

and how do you distinguish that

uh from anyone else who you would

immediately cut off

and I think for me I I've recently you

know

I've recently arrived at the philosophy

that almost everything is is some sort

of lesson that we must take and I think

lessons like this when it comes to

parents when it comes to people who are

supposed to be these sort of

um

Immortal almost god-like figures in in

your life especially during your youth

like

that is the greatest lesson for your

Humanity that you can acquire you know

the distinction between love and care

and abandonment and pain as you grow uh

I really

I wouldn't call myself a religious man

but I I do believe that everyone is put

here in your life to have these

interactions with you for some kind of

reason and I know that sounds like

fadedness which can be you know we'll

leave that for another podcast but

um

I think it's uh

I think it's a lesson that you have to

learn and it's all in a way reflecting

back and carving you into the person

that you're supposed to be I also think

it tests your patience and your love

and the people that really persist and

continuously try and find the love after

all the pain consistently we arrive to

the the care and the connection and the

love

even though you've been you know

deeply wounded by the ones who are

supposed to be at your Round Table those

are the strongest individuals in my

opinion

you know if you can if you can

consistently on the other come to the

other side of that conversation and go

I will still choose to care I will still

choose to love

um

that speaks a lot about you

at some point you have to put your love

for yourself of course fast it's the old

oxygen mask analogy your journey with

with your mother you're very young you

don't really know what's going on sure

you're acting you're doing these things

at some point in your adolescence or

Beyond you figure out that this is not

normal behavior this is not acceptable

behavior for a mother and a son sure

when was that

I mean

I guess when Social Services came

knocking it's usually when it happens

um I don't know I would go over to my

father's house because the court gave

primary custody to my mother and this is

one I don't know too much about the UK

legal system in this regard but the

United States legal system is incredibly

biased towards uh towards the mother in

cases of divorce and custody and in this

case it certainly should have been my

father taking custody

um and this is obviously a case-by-case

basis but

um I would go into you know we'd we'd

spend some time with my father like once

a week and we wouldn't be able to eat

candy and do whatever the [ __ ] we wanted

he would you know make us go and

exercise and play outside and

there was a regiment

there was a healthy regimen it wasn't

you know we weren't a lot we we weren't

allowed to do whatever the [ __ ] we

wanted and I think at that point I was

going at when you're a child you go man

this is no fun but as you as you sort of

pan out for a moment and you go wow I'm

actually feeling a lot better here I'm

present here I'm I'm happy here even

though I don't get to eat ice cream all

the time you know so am I making sense

with this please um Social Services

don't get called for eating ice cream no

no they don't and I won't go too much

into that because I don't want to make

this whole podcast about another young

man in LA with mommy issues yeah uh but

I do think that that

the circumstances of my life are are at

least my childhood are much like the

sort of cliche narrative that you hear a

lot about child stars but

um I don't talk about it too much

because I don't ever want to be

perceived as a victim of it I am not and

have never been and never will be a

victim of any circumstance that I am in

I don't wear victimhood on my shoulder I

don't like to act like I am my wounds

and to repeatedly be reminded of my

wounds

um

what happened in my youth happened and

carved me and forged me into the person

I am today for better and for us right

for better for purely better even

through pain

we trade trauma for wisdom that's what

we do as humans when we go through heavy

experiences it deepens our eyes you know

I I I think for me

the reason I haven't really talked about

it too much in the past is because one

the media has a way of sensationalizing

scars and victimhood like this is a

person's character and in very many ways

it is but they don't talk about

the strength that is the byproduct of

pain they talk about the pain which is

useless like it it all it does is

perpetuate the past which I think is is

or a pain that existed in the past

rather than going my god look how well

he's done for himself even though he's

had such a tough tough upbringing you

know I think Oprah is another wonderful

example of this where her story her

origin tale so to speak is is very well

known

um and look at what a beautiful example

of success that she's become over time

you know that to me is the most

beautiful way that I think media can

sensationalize a story of pain but I

find that it's oftentimes not and I also

feel like we're in a climate right now

that

really encourages people to talk about

the victimization of pain more than they

do about the triumph over it the

strength that comes as a byproduct of

that pain and so that's mainly why I

don't talk about it too much because I

don't want to be that guy you know I

don't want to be that guy that's like

are we all the time no man you you're

given these lessons in your life so that

you can

triumph over them and use use the traits

that you've acquired from those lessons

over time to to carve out who you are

one of the things I've mulled over from

speaking to people on this podcast is

about this idea that that that trauma

you describe if it ever goes away you

know should it ask yourself that it's a

good question

it probably I have to say it probably

shouldn't because as you I said earlier

on it's a lesson that you learned so

that you could deal with your

environmental circumstance and just like

the lesson I learned of not putting my

hand into fire I'm not going to unlearn

that at 30. no there's no therapy that

could that could help me worse and

unfortunately I'm speaking for myself

here I don't know about you but I'm a

dumbass that needs to learn by his own

mistakes I mean I can watch my father go

hey man yeah you need to drink water at

this Watering Hole but I you know you

can't drag me there and make me drink I

have to make mistakes in order to learn

from my mistakes and a lot of my friends

are very similar but um

I don't think I don't think those

lessons should ever go away like I said

about my my validation thing sticking

sticking around with me sure what stuck

around with you

um the workaholism is definitely stuck

with me uh I need validation a lot

I think that's a pretty common

uh uh thing for most artists just to

have

um but I am

the byproduct of the byproduct of

um moments of incredible narcissism and

moments of severe self-loathing and

right in the middle is when I do my best

work

um but a lot of that

operation and the fluctuation between

those two things uh is determined by

people going goddamn you're good what if

they say what if they invalidate what if

they say God damn you suck I spiral of

course but I don't let it hang on me I

try not to let it hang on me what does a

spiral look like

um man maybe I should just run away and

and not do this and you know get some

chickens and raise you know get some

eggs and live off the grid and and

whatever it is

um

it also manifestes the inability to sort

of say

your desires out loud for fear of of

looking like a fool

um I think

La does that too because I think

vulnerability is just something that we

don't really encourage here in Los

Angeles why is that

um because it's not cool

but it's not cool

uh

uh to angelino's because someone that is

cool hasn't said it like that before do

you know what I'm saying it's a lot of

imposter syndrome in Los Angeles and so

you know authenticity and vulnerability

are not really encouraged trades

um before you arrived I was saying to my

team

I was like I watch all these interviews

with people like yourself from La that's

a Stars actors and I go no one's ever

asked them an interesting question it

seems but genuinely that's how before

you walked in this is what I was saying

because Lucy Hale was the same she goes

oh this is the first time I've had a

deep conversation and I'm like why and

then I mimicked what interviewers are

like he was like hey uh where did you

get your shoes yeah

yeah

yeah of course who the [ __ ] wants to

talk about that does people actually you

know yeah yeah yeah I mean because it's

safe yeah right because it's a safe

thing you know this is why I love the

podcast space is because the podcast

space creates new ones yeah nuance and

and context a viewed it gives you the

whole context right there which is

something that a lot of people you know

in interview settings or otherwise are

completely devoid of when you're selling

a publication when you're selling an

interview with someone on paper you

don't really get the context oh well the

context was it was pouring rain outside

for the last blah blah blah and you

arrive to the studio and you got to sit

down and have a tad and we talked about

having similar birthdays and we talked

about Botswana beforehand blah blah blah

blah blah you know you get the context

you get the connection which I think is

gorgeous

and I think it also creates a really

beautiful way to discover the honest

humanity and opinion of people

because

we're you know entertainment media it's

Sensational we're only going to sell the

worst person in the world and the best

person in the world we're not going to

sell the humans in between

you know and and most of us fit as soon

as a kind of gray morality that doesn't

really you know we're not not all of us

are these [ __ ] outliers that are like

these really firm radical [ __ ] people

that are that are saying these

radicalized things in order to preach to

the to the sensationalism of the

internet most of us have these kind of

moderate places that we sit

um so I think the podcast space is

[ __ ] awesome for that man you really

get to to sit and connect to people and

have a conversation and for people that

are interested they [ __ ] listen it's

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production virtual events your journey

with your relationship with

acting sure and the entertainment

industry yeah it's been a journey oh for

sure man

can you give me kind of like a timeline

of that journey and how you've felt

through the process with your

relationship with acting absolutely

um

started at eight months old

when you say that it still baffles my

mind diaper commercials things like that

dick commercials

um

worked on a sitcom for a bit

uh still wasn't really fully conscious

uh we were still doing the baby acting

thing I did a sitcom called Grace Under

Fire a couple other little TV spots here

and there identical twins switching

places blah blah blah then we booked big

daddy with Adam Sandler when we were

around six

um and that was like the big thing at

the time this point about the use of

twins in acting yeah some people might

not understand the context oh okay you'd

like me to explain yeah children can

only work a certain amount of hours

which is a very strange thing to say out

loud

um in the button factory in the coal

mines we can only work for two hours a

day uh no but we can only work for a

certain amount of hours

um and so if you have two twins that

look identical to each other that people

can't perceive as anything other than

the same character you double the amount

of hours you can work

which is an incredible economic loophole

for a lot of young actors because to

clean the jackpot yeah yeah of course of

course it was great

work the system baby but the problem is

when you start

at least from that philosophy and you go

into an art you know

um we've commodified almost all of the

Arts that exist but when you enter into

a form of expression in a

professionalized or or work Dynamic it's

hard to see that as a pursuit of passion

so my journey through acting over time

has been one of trying to balance art

and Commerce in a way one for the money

too for the show sort of thing where

I need to be reminded consistently to

myself that I love this thing do you

know what I'm saying

making my money becoming financially

stable getting financially stable taking

jobs that are uh

that aren't paying as much but doing

cool projects and making yourself feel

more in love with the discipline

and I think you know

this is this is a particular approach

that has to come from a certain

socioeconomic background if you are

you know this nepo baby conversation has

been huge out here in La I don't know

how how big it's been out in the UK but

um if you come from a financially stable

background and you can see it with any

actor that has a really Stellar resume

where you're like God you've picked

great movie after great movie after

great movie you've been a part of all

these really cool projects well they

probably had a lot of financial

stability because those projects pay you

[ __ ] nothing

right so if you have the sort of Patron

that is allowing your freedom of

expression to take these artistic

projects and reinvigorate this passion

for you even in the face of

commodification of an expression then

you can uh you can have a really Stellar

career but if you also have to make

money alongside it you're probably not

going to take the super cool jobs you

gotta you know you gotta sell drinkable

yogurt uh for a little bit in order to

go to college you know what I mean yeah

yeah this is the balance between art and

commerce that a lot of people don't

understand in almost every other art at

least in photography this is a great

example no one looks at

someone doing a commercial gig and then

going back to the editorial world and

going why would they do that commercial

again yeah it's a little strange but in

acting they do there's a huge division

between those two people massive

Big Daddy yeah that's where we left off

wasn't it yes big daddy so got Big Daddy

it's six

um Adam was just incredible we shot that

movie for far longer than it needed to

be shot in New York City

um it's my first time going to New York

uh and then that was a whirlwind

were you cognizant at this point of your

feelings with acting that your

relationship with the industry no it was

super present okay which is good which

is what I think we're all trying to get

back to is this sort of lantern

consciousness of of Youth in terms of

acting this is a state of play because

no one should go into acting and be like

I'm going to act

no that's

I don't think that's yeah I don't think

that's right

um but I was still very present at the

time

and then big daddy came out and

alongside it came this Whirlwind of

opinion and conversation and fame and

and all this sort of stuff

which would then which was very

polarizing but would lead me into I

worked on

um a couple other direct DVD movies at

the time for some cash money

and then uh

did friends I was a recurring role on

friends and then

uh Dylan and I would end up booking

uh The Suite Life on Disney which of

course was another huge lifesaver

um and your relationship with acting at

this point is what you're very

commercial okay are you enjoying it

um not really because now it had become

a thing that was taking me away from

playing in the cul-de-sac with the

friends you know what I mean so

I loved school like I loved going to

school I loved playing with my friends

and and all that sort of thing so at the

time I couldn't see it as anything other

than that but that's you know that's

what a child does

um

and then we did The Sweet Life and then

I actually really did not mind not going

to school so we were homeschooled from

The Suite Life lawnmowers and then every

every conversation because I kept a lot

of my super close friends you're 12 and

15 at this point uh this would yeah so

we did that from 12 to 18. 12 to 18. oh

in the Sweet Sweet Life yes would be The

Suite Life on Deck to spin off

um and when we got to high school age

all of my friends would tell me these

stories from high school American public

high school that was just like God damn

you lived through that [ __ ] I don't want

to be part of that at all this sounds

horrible and so then I was quite

thankful to not be doing that

um and then I went to college

you picked up photography around this

time I did around 18. I actually went to

London and the first time I went to

London I said I should give myself a

camera and document my brother a nice

little journey through London I found a

really curious quote that you said about

the reason why you chose photography

sure

um relating to it allowed you to escape

your depression yeah yeah I think a lot

of people um

have sort of

discussed that one quote

um I I think I was certainly

I had gone through a huge breakup after

college

right at the end of college

um and re and picked my camera up again

um and you put a lot of my emotional

state into just shooting hobbyism which

is a real wonderful uh thing to do when

you were feeling sad is pick up a hobby

dive into hobbyism

um

and so I pushed myself into a lot of

that

uh and in very many ways it allowed time

to pass more quickly and for me to heal

more effectively yeah

but I also did it because I wanted to

express my vision

in very many ways when you're an actor

you are the byproduct of the writing the

direction and the editing and a lot of

people assume you have much more

creative agency over a project than you

do but I don't find that to be the case

when you're a commercial employee actor

you know when when you were working on

Commercial projects in very many ways

there's they're controlling the image of

you that people are seeing

um and they control the takes and you're

as bound to the project uh as the

writing is good or bad and the directors

are changing week to week so it's a

difficult relationship to expression

and self-identity and I I think at the

time I was really looking for a way to

tell people hey

this is what I can do if I'm given

creative freedom

um I don't think I've achieved that

no your work is amazing as I was saying

she wasn't just blowing smoke up your

ass I I went on your website I thought

oh we're moving into a new house me my

girlfriend I thought this would be

brilliant if we come out I'll just send

you something

yeah I hate I hate anything I I do after

two weeks so I'll send you some of the

newer stuff textbook creative yeah

when's the moment in your life where you

both loved and then the moment where you

hated acting the most I came back to it

yeah you know I used College yeah I was

at real fork in the road and I um

made a promise to someone that I would

return to acting but I never anticipated

I would and I was reminded that I love

performance

which is I love to perform in front of

people

um and I love the presentedness of a

performance like when you wake up at the

end of the take and you go man I don't I

barely remember what I was even doing

right there that was I just felt that

um I love that I love performing for the

crew I love

I loved being on stage I didn't like the

[ __ ] that came with it

because when I was young

you know acting was like the grilled

chicken of the dish it was like it was

the biggest part of the course and the

side salad was like the red carpet stuff

and and whatever the [ __ ] it is and now

that social media has made it so that

the whole thing's just a grilled chicken

salad now I mean like like the salad is

almost a bigger part of your success

than the act the act of performance and

I think in very many ways

you know your celebrity profile has been

become far too intermingled into your

work as a professional and all of us

within the industry are recoiling and

trying to figure out a way to to

you know figure out how to deal with

that

I I was I have to be honest I had a good

laugh at your other Instagram account

camera duels yeah that's polarized a lot

of people but but I at the same time I

thought I underst

I read about your sort of social anxiety

that came with came along with the fame

and then I heard you'd created this

Instagram account of taking people

taking pictures of people taking

pictures of you covertly without asking

permission and then I thought to myself

this is a great idea but it's going to

encourage it yeah of course it did yeah

I know it totally did which I I don't

mind as much

that it encourages people

um

because all it's done is just further

reinforce why I've done it yeah which is

like hey people are not going to care

about anything other than the uh then

bragging about a place they've been or a

person they've seen

you know

how do you feel about that

uh I don't mind it because all of us

kind of just do it we're taught to do

that sort of thing

um but I don't know if I'd necessarily

make those people my friends how does

how does it feel to be on the receiving

end of it every day

I understand it did you always

um

yeah actually I did did you ever

struggle with it um of course I

struggled with it for sure I'm asking

this for myself yeah yeah because well I

think look man we're always searching

for

um

a much deeper emotional connection to

another human being

you know it would I would much rather

have someone be like like this podcast

is a great example tell me about what it

was like growing up in your position and

if anyone ever asked me that I would be

an open book yeah you truly could come

up to me and ask me any question on the

street and I would probably hold a

tattoo with you

um but people want to show others yeah

but I don't

um don't do that uh

but I think people want to want to show

what they're up to right now and that's

totally fine and natural

um well I don't know if it's natural but

uh we're you know we're conditioned to

do that

but I think you know

whether it's you know you're doing it

ironically or authentically or

you're truly excited or you admire

someone or

you want to just prove to other people

I think most people have to understand

that there is probably a greater

connection to be made

that exists there's a choice that you

make when when you're asking for a very

surface level shallow interaction with

someone

um and that the alternative did exist

where you could probably deepen your

relationship to to

um an individual that you've wanted to

talk to

uh

so I don't really mind when people do it

it just means that person's not going to

be a cool connection to me personally

like I'm not gonna remember that

connection in my life when I'm telling

stories and things

whereas you know I did a movie called

five feet apart which um which dealt a

lot with cystic fibrosis and I've had a

lot of

um

people who live with cystic fibrosis

come up to me and talk to me about

cystic fibrosis and and talk to me about

that film and those are Connections in

my opinion that have lasted with me I

remember almost every single

conversation I've had with something

like that because it's not a uh yeah

let's take a pic it is hey man

um I want to let you know that I go

through this something that you were

trying to portray in this and and you

know this it affected me like this and

and it it's it's a discussion that

enriches both people

um and even if you don't like the

individual you know let's say you see

someone that you really don't like the

work of or you don't like the Persona of

going up and asking them a question is

probably going to yield so much more to

you than the alternative but we want to

show everything on Instagram and social

media and Tick Tock and whatever it is

because we want

you know we're all creatures of

validation we want to see the likes and

and the whatever the [ __ ] it is and I'm

I've done it too I'm not saying I

haven't done it you know I've I've taken

a picture or tried to take a picture of

John C Reilly who I really admire you

know I there's a lot of people that I I

deeply admire but if I were given the

choice between asking them a compelling

question and taking a photo I would

probably choose the compelling question

for sure that social anxiety if you will

really know what that's like people

without Fame will often experience

social anxiety for their own reasons as

well but when you say social anxiety can

you give me a picture of what that feels

like in reality oh sure uh pain and

image of it

you're very good at painting images with

your words by the way oh thank you

that's very you're enjoyable to listen

to you know what my social anxiety feels

a lot like

sitting in a sauna when it's just a bit

too hot like the sauna right before you

have to get out you know what I mean

it's it's like this warm sort of

blanketing feeling but it's not warm

it's [ __ ] hot it's but it's a blanket

over me for sure and it it it's this

kind of

for me anxiety is really present even

though I'm thinking about future

possibility or past

um

past actions that I've made it is a

consistent

um

I'm living in this I'm living in this

I'm living in this I'm living in this

I'm living in this and so in that way

it's almost blanketed over me

um

and what I'll do for that anxiety is is

I will

activate my five senses

what do I see

what do I smell

what can I hear

Can I taste anything

what do I feel on my skin and it

immediately grounds me in the present

these things are grounding mechanisms

that I really enjoy when I start to feel

social anxiety have you learned that

somewhere

yeah I think I did where'd you where did

you learn that um well I did uh

I went to therapy I've had I've gone to

therapy off and on my whole life

um

but he was a wonderful man up in

Vancouver that taught me a sort of

grounding techniques

and he's right but I mean it does you

know it can be a therapist it can be a

father figure it can be anyone that

teaches you essentially the root of it

is be present grounded yeah it's it's

it's you know all the Eastern

philosophers and the Buddhists were

trying to tell you to do this [ __ ] the

whole time meditate ground yourself in

the present you know grounding yourself

in the present is the greatest enemy of

anxiety

what other tools have you learned from

therapy I feel like in a

I can learn a lot from you without

having to pay the therapist sure well

that's flattering

um

yeah I try not to talk too much about

mental health just in general

um

because everyone has an incredibly

personal relationship to it and I feel

like there's a lot of armchair experts

on the internet right now acting like

you know or diagnosing people or doing

stuff like that which I find Inc that is

so atrocious I can't believe people even

do that

um and I think the conversation about

around mental health unless it's being

done by truly a trained professional is

probably not the greatest thing to

listen to so with that disclaimer

I will say

um whenever I'm feeling heightened

emotionally I will take a break from

whatever I'm doing I will truly walk

away

from whatever I am doing I will tell if

it is an argument with someone I will go

hey

right now I'm feeling some heightened

emotion if you don't mind let's pick up

this conversation about 20 minutes

give yourself time

you know I I try to approach everything

with a kind of logos that that

you know

allows me to think more clearly and

calmly about what I do

um which can be off-putting to some

people

uh because not a lot of people like

being met uh

with logos when they're heightened

emotionally or being met with Solutions

when they're just trying to vent it's

one of the first things you learn when

you're in a serious relationship

especially as a guy

for sure because most a lot of a lot of

us are solution-based people you know um

but

I'll take a break that's the that's

honestly the most helpful thing I've

done I'll also try and remind myself of

you know grounding myself in the senses

or I will uh I'll remind myself that

one you're not the only person that's

ever gone through anxiety or will ever

go through anxiety and two

um the problem as you perceive it the

the vastness of the problem is you

perceive it is not the way other people

perceive it what about your relationship

with boundaries what please explain what

so you know you're the very first story

you told about being eight months old

eight months old you don't have

boundaries of course yeah so they are

obviously easily exploited as you grow

older sometimes when those boundaries

weren't firm when they were young and

you were maybe people pleasing or you

were seeking validation that can have a

sort of cascading effect into adulthood

what's your relationship been like with

saying no and protecting boundaries

whether it's professionally personally

in relationships well that's a great

question and one I'm far more qualified

to answer now than I was even two years

three years ago

um

I can honest to God say that I did not

love myself enough as a younger man

especially my mid to late 20s for sure

did not love myself enough did not

respect my own boundaries what did that

look like

um that looked like rolling over in the

face of a lot of adversity especially

when it came to romantic relationships

um I was a people pleaser I I was a

people pleaser professionally I was a

people pleaser uh romantically I was

practically a [ __ ] nurse to whoever

needed my help in very many ways likely

as a byproduct of my upbringing but

um what that meant was oftentimes

crossing my own boundaries as an attempt

to make others feel better

and as I've gotten older I've become

more okay with uh turning people off

which is all right

you know you're going to polarize

individuals you are going to get along

with certain people and not get along

with other people that's totally okay

and I think as I've aged

I've tried to um

I've tried to remind myself yeah that

was an awkward interaction that was a

bad interaction with someone but you're

gonna have those man that's okay

move on

and as I've Loved myself now and

thankfully I'm I you know I'm in a

relationship right now with a woman

who's so emotionally understanding and

and just the best and you know it helps

when others can be like yeah dude

encourage you in the right direction and

be like yeah it's okay like we're like

because I will I know myself I will fall

back on like are you all right like is

everything okay like like trying to

control a situation through making sure

everyone is happy you know but it's not

a you know it's not a [ __ ] video game

you can't get like the best solution

where everyone is okay sometimes you're

gonna really have to polarize some

people and that's all right my only

boundaries I would say uh when it comes

to

when it comes to my professional career

or otherwise

um I really don't like condescension

so like if I feel condescension in any

sort of way if I see other people being

condescending to others if if if I can

sense a kind of pretentiousness or

condescension that's usually something

that will either take me to leave the

room or confront another person about it

and be like hey why'd you why'd you do

that

what is um that relationship you

described what is love taught you about

yourself ah so much man

I've had

the pleasure of being in love three

times

the pleasure

um

I've had

I'd say three big relationships in my

life

three girlfriends in my life

um I mean my first one when I was like a

kid but that was just kind of puppy love

stuff and then I had one in college

um I dated a co-star on Riverdale

um and now I'm I'm in love again and

every time it has been pretty distinct I

think maybe the first two college and my

last girlfriend were far more similar

because of me

uh because I was still approaching it

the same way

um and then I did a lot of self work and

I fell in love again

um thankfully and it has taught me a lot

like I mentioned I was a people pleaser

I was deathly afraid of being perceived

as anything other than perfect for a

long time

and so I would roll over quite a bit in

order to make sure that

as long as they were happy that's what

love is you know as a sort of consistent

happiness

um and I was also actively suppressing

my emotions and like not really

discussing what I actually felt about a

situation because I was afraid of

retaliation in very many ways

um I was afraid where did that come from

oh I mean certainly my youth certainly

my youth your youth I think growing up

in you know building an entire life and

business model off of the validation of

other people certainly made me

um open to it but I also think the first

relationship I ever had with with a

female figure which is the mother figure

in everyone's life was an incredibly

tenuous and fractured relationship with

with um

with a a tortured individual which made

me go I can fix things don't worry I got

it you know no you're all good it's okay

um and I brought that in I brought that

in a lot were you trying to make her

happy

oh of course yeah I think so when I was

younger especially but even though I

wasn't an adult you know I didn't even

know yeah yeah of course you don't speak

your pretty mother anymore I don't I

don't but

um

she put me on this path and there was

once a woman who was very clear-headed

and

who had a beautiful

vision of the kind of people my brother

and I could be and in very many ways I

honor

the dream she once had so that if she

were Lucid enough

um

and came back and saw what I had become

she would go man I was right and in that

way it would validate the entire life of

pain and Trauma that she has gone

through are you are you sad about where

your relationship is with her of course

everyone is everyone is sad about

something that could I mean unless

you're a sociopath

um

when something beautiful and and lovely

goes rotten it can be a very sad thing

um

and it does make me sad but

it's also life and that's the lesson

that I've had to learn from it is that

you know that sadness is okay it means

I'm human it means I loved something

outside of myself

in a way that was so beautiful and so

boundless that it that it makes me feel

one of the strongest and most Eternal of

human emotions which is sadness like

real sadness and that's okay do you do

you does part of you like hold out and

this is kind of speaking from my

experience as well sure does part of you

kind of hold out for

things to just get better or go

completely wrong get better

outcome go completely wrong

um

I mean I'm sure you've reconciled this

as well but there's a part of you that

goes oh what if this is my last

communication with an individual you

know

of course you have how would that make

me feel as a consequence thereof how

would it make you feel

if this was you've never got a speech

your mother again you know and going

back to the previous question

I tried for very very many years to try

and to try and do everything I could

um

but at some point or another it comes

down to the individual which is the

hardest part

like you want someone to change or do

something and this also goes to romance

this goes to friendships this goes to to

blood to whatever it is you can really

yearn for someone to do the right thing

and the hardest part is even if you set

up the entire environment for them to do

so

uh unless they choose it for themselves

it's just not gonna happen and so I used

to blame myself quite a bit for not just

my relationship to blood but you know I

used to blame myself for all of the

relationships in my life going wrong

until I realized that yeah in almost

every relationship it takes two to tango

friendships romance blood some the other

person has to be a participant in the

dance just as much as you are

participating in the dance in order for

the outcome to be the one that you guys

both desire when you say that you used

to blame yourself for relationships in

your life going wrong yeah does that

mean that you originally blamed yourself

for the relationship with either your

mother or father or the relationship

between you and your mother going wrong

um I did because unfortunately as a

consequence of being a working child

you're forced into an authority position

when you're quite small right which is

now you're the breadwinner of a family

over the adults so in very many ways you

take this very strange like uh role of

authority and and positioning when it

comes to uh the subsistence of of a

nuclear family which is not a role a

child should be put in so when it does

go wrong as a natural byproduct of the

authority that you feel as a consequence

of you know your professional life you

can adopt some of the blame on yourself

which I will say I do not do anymore was

that are you talking about the divorce

there are you talking about relationship

with your mother yeah just everything

work mother whatever it is super

interesting yeah

yeah I mean dude it's this is also like

it should be said that

the working child a a child that has

worked since they were eight months old

you have to understand that that is a

not to sound like a [ __ ] special

snowflake as an identical twin you know

what I mean which is the greatest

contradiction but

that is a life

an upbringing that is very very very

very rare very rare not there's only a

handful of people that have that really

weird

um path through the world most of them

are in the United States and most of

them you know the sensationalism of

their of their upbringing is talked

about all over

um so that's um that comes with a lot of

[ __ ]

and it affects to tie us all back I'm

getting us back good thank God for that

because I couldn't see how we'd make it

yeah

um that affects how you navigate

everything in your life your

relationships which is what we were

talking about friendships blood all that

stuff and my relationships were deeply

affected by my upbringing of course my

friendships were affected by my

upbringing my relationship to my family

was affected by my upbringing but at

some point or another you have to go

yeah I'm on the right path and even if

it's not I'll try and make it the right

path and I'll grow from them what makes

you alive then like what brings what

brings your heart to life these days

passionate conversation really for sure

without a doubt how many of them have

you had lots publicly

not publicly No in fact I've only done

one other podcast

um and these kind of public

conversations are quite rare which is

why I love this medium so much but I but

I've I've thankfully I've surrounded

myself with individuals that are capable

of all having these conversations and

for really diving into to what it is

that makes us all feel alive

um and I think

truthfully I think I think Seekers of

this kind of conversation find each

other it's weird they really do and you

can see it in others eyes like you can

see people that love this [ __ ] in their

eyes and so I thankful I I mean I host

dinner parties and stuff and try and get

as many people together to have these

sort of conversations and it can be a

little bit awkward for the first one

what are we talking about

um but that's incredibly enriching to me

okay so you've just you've just he teed

this up so perfectly perfect hit it

everything you've just described

the type of person that likes deep

conversations is very much the type of

people that listen to The Diary of a CEO

and we have a closing tradition on this

podcast where guests write a question in

the diary for the next guest they never

get to see who they're writing it for so

because we know that the type of person

that listens to this is by by clear

um linkage terrible use of words the

type of person that likes deep

conversations we wanted to take all of

the questions out of this diary that

have been written into them and allow

people to play at dinner parties the day

of SEO which is they can ask their

friends

deep conversations that have been

written into this book you also get to

see who wrote the the question for the

first time I want to play with you yeah

please right now ask me some questions I

am I took some cards out there's about

100 cards in total but I took the ones

that I thought were the biggest stitches

oh man that's a great idea I love that

so what I'm gonna do I will also answer

one yeah but I'm gonna lay them out here

you pick one that you want to answer

whichever one feels right for you then

I'll pick one as well and I'll answer it

we'll go through the all of them so

we'll pick one at a time

one

can I pick one so so you answer that one

I answer this one yeah this is by Tim

Grover this is what is your dark side

um

I think the Dark Side of myself is

definitely

the narcissistic side of myself that can

come out when I am feeling super proud

of something that I do and I will

oftentimes try to Humble that it'll get

me seeking decadence it'll get me

seeking external stimulation from my

environment and yearning for that which

is you know what every stoic philosopher

would be like dude shut up

um and I I really relate to that I think

my worst side is the side that is

seeking validation from other people

um rather than understanding and placing

myself in my environment and going wow

I'm so privileged to have what I have

and where I'm at and I believe that yeah

okay mine is from wilster who is an

expert on the topic of status who wrote

a book about it and which is kind of

about validation wanting to be famous

for sure who is the person you'd most

like to say sorry to but haven't

I told you I picked these questions to

stitch you up but I decided to answer

them when I laid them out so my would

actually be my mother yeah because she

didn't get an education so

um I've often framed her in my story as

being

I don't know like she she's been the

center point of difficult moments in my

life but she is also like the 95 of my

story with her is just this woman that

absolutely turquoise absolutely loves me

and my whole life her whole life is me

and and you know like growing up she did

everything for us she she raised us five

days a week she can't read or write

herself growing up she raised these four

kids that I think are all pretty good

decent kids

um so I'd say that I'd probably say

sorry to her for not spending enough

time in conversation talking about her

Brilliance and the fact that I am the

reason she's the reason I'm an

entrepreneur great answer man great

answer

I don't know I don't know

Rochelle Humes cool

if you could turn back the clock on one

day this year and do it differently what

day would it be and why

that's difficult

I try not to live doing that too much

where I feel like I need to change

something

but

um

so I am sober

I've been sober for about a year and

some change and it's been a wonderful

thing in my life

um

but I have

thankfully had the self-awareness to

apologize to some people in my life in

the past in a similar way that the card

that you just pulled

um

and in order to protect another person's

feelings I did not tell them that I was

going to be apologizing to an individual

um because I was afraid of the

consequences of that face-to-face

meeting I know this is a little

confusing but if I could turn back and

do it differently I would be so

transparent about that meeting over

coffee to the affected individuals in

order to be like hey I'm letting you

know this is happening I know that this

is blah blah blah but I just want to let

you know

with full transparency this is what it

is blah blah blah

um

but otherwise I try not to live like

that it's unclear you apologize to

someone and there was there was a

repercussion of that apology which you

wish you'd kind of foresaw and addressed

yeah okay exactly right cool exactly

right because sometimes meeting with

other people makes others uncomfortable

like they're you know especially

especially as you grow older some people

are like why'd you meet with that

individual but I think for me I would

have just been super

super transparent about it I'd be like

hey this is happening blah blah

um and that's been a consequence of the

work I've done as I've cleaned my life

up so I look back on that one day and I

go

hey man the work you did should have

told you that you could have been fully

transparent with that even if it made

other people uncomfortable and I

probably would have done that different

but otherwise

I try not I really try not to think like

that because they're lessons right

because it's all lessons because I made

that mistake for a reason you know and

now I'll never do it again and the fact

that I even said that as an answer means

I've already learned my lesson you'd

rather the lesson was in the past yeah

of course of course and in the future at

some point it's a place okay here we go

tell me something about yourself that

nobody knows and would be surprised to

know about you [ __ ] you know let's uh

hear about your internet history bro

Marissa Pierre um

so I had a guest on this podcast called

called Steve Peters who's just this

incredible like psychiatric psychiatric

therapist etc etc

um

after he left I contacted him and spoke

to him about something I was dealing

with this predicament in my mind and I

was bouncing between two outcomes and

it's the first time in my entire life

and I've spoken to so many therapists

that I've ever spoken to a therapist

privately to try and resolve something

and I say that because I say that for

one honestly just for one reason which

is I've spent so long on this podcast

talking to therapists including Marissa

pear who wrote this question and

Marissa's Marissa Pierre but I've never

spoken about the fact that I too have

spoken to a therapist about personal

challenges that I've faced and Marissa

Pierre is just one of the best ever and

so is um Professor Steve Peters do you

feel embarrassed I think I did I think I

did I think I think I always have I

think it's funny because

this is therapy for me and I lay it all

out you know I yeah the diversity was

Diary of a CO started as like my therapy

it was like me writing things in this

diary then sharing with them with the

world but I despite my guests

telling me about the profundity of

speaking to someone else as you have

today

as you did in Canada I believe I've

never done it myself until that moment

where I spoke to Steven said this is

what I'm dealing with like how do I

navigate through this and it's

incredible

I I think it'll

because you can't your brain can't think

yourself out of the [ __ ] no I I also

think a good therapist is like you know

your first house like like it arrives to

you precisely when it's supposed to you

know it because ultimately what we're

all seeking at least in therapy with the

help of a trained professional but it's

a human connection just to another

person you know we all want our Goodwill

Hunting you know we want to we want to

sit down and have someone who has a

a deeply enticing personal connection to

you and goes I hear you man I hear you

you're okay like have you thought about

it this way and so I do find a lot of

these kind of conversations can be

inching close to that and in that way

I'll say I do think there are a ton of

different forms of therapy you know of

self-soothing of methods I find a

tremendous therapy by going into the

Wilderness as an example you know I I

find that a really healthy thing for me

to do to sort of Disconnect and leave

and go into the woods and do all that

sort of stuff but I also think the other

stuff is super valuable too and I I

don't think there's any shame in talking

about it I think that's great I've

thought about it so many times in my

life like there's been so many moments

in my life I think like 10 where I've

seriously considered like I need I need

to go speak to someone else about this

because I can't figure this out myself I

remember like maybe two three years ago

I was there was some like business

um challenge I was facing and it was

just like keeping me up all night and I

remember going on the internet

contacting someone and being like can I

speak to you about this and it's because

I'm looking for a trained professional

like that can coach me through my

thought processes and what you've

described is so interesting to me

because you said two things the first

thing you said is therapy in essence is

like a pursuit of connection with

someone and then the second thing you

said is about how nature is therapy

these are all things that humans knew

very well in our Natural Life ten

thousand years ago man look I studied

archeology

and franchise over time because I know

that [ __ ] isn't that funny that therapy

is just being more human oh I I also

think look

we just wanna

we want to be heard man we we look for

soul

we all look for soul in other people we

want to know that Soul exists we want to

justify our soul by looking for soul in

other people and when you find people

with soul you want to hang on to people

with soul that's what we do

you know and I I think when you're

bearing your soul especially in a sort

of therapy environment you want someone

to to pick it up and go God I see this

thing man yeah I see it I did something

like this

so I mean for me it took me a while

finding a therapist that was um

that was willing to be Hands-On you know

there's this sort of uh hands-off

approach to a lot of

um you know

mental health work just in general and I

I just I can't do that man I need

someone like you know in a sort of

similar way to this there's two people

sitting down going God man yeah for sure

if therapy is is there for connection

then the thing that drives us to therapy

must be disconnection a feeling of

Distinction of course

when that disconnection can be anything

disconnection from nature from people

from life from purpose whatever yeah

it's it's

you know you become afraid of

your own soul being too disconnected

from from everything around you or that

or that you're that you feel so entirely

alone or unique that that

no one else really understands you is a

hard thing so so when you go into

therapy as an example and someone goes

yeah dude I hear you you know but then

if the if the [ __ ] alarm rings and

they go your hours up okay that to me uh

that's this connection that's just

connection because then it feels like a

monetary exchange I'm like I don't want

that all right

okay I'll take this haven't I done two

oh yeah that's the other one okay

how could you be more authentically You

by Fern cotton

is that pronounced correct yeah nailed

it perfect how could I be more

authentically you I mean I think stuff

more like this I gotta be less afraid of

of people going wow

he said what

I just don't care anymore I'm like I'm

dude I'm 30. I like I lived a lot of

that anxiety [ __ ] in in my 20s and I

truly believe that your 20s are meant

to be a petri dish for mistake that

you're supposed to learn lessons from

and go into your 30s and be be better at

and I and I don't know I think I am

practicing authenticity in a way but I

think it's complicated because I don't

know

if a life in the in entertainment people

actually seek authenticity which is

something I'm dealing with and I think

for acting it's also a real dilemma

because the more you show an authentic

version of yourself the harder it can be

for people to suspend that and see you

as a character

um which is something I'm sort of

sitting down and having a conversation

with myself about

um

but I'm not going to control what other

people think you know and I think uh

I think I am practicing authenticity in

very many ways how could I be more

authentically me

um stand on my ground set my boundaries

you know

recognizing my own bottom line behaviors

before I you know

stumble into that [ __ ] um

have you ever felt the cost of

authenticity of inauthenticity of

inauthenticity yeah yeah what is the

cost in your view

exposure

if you're exposed to be a fraudster yeah

if you're exposed to be a sort of snake

oil salesman that can be quite

embarrassing

um in inauthenticity can also get you

into a place where you actually don't

have the skill set to perform whatever

you're trying to perform but I also

think inauthenticity or feelings of

inauthenticity are a natural part of of

Courage you're going to doubt yourself a

little bit before you go into anything

and I I don't know I always find

my most effective uh means of surviving

anything is just kind of being thrown

into the fire and being like all right

I'm here what are we doing let's go

all right here we go [ __ ] no stitch

up

James Watt what is the belief that you

hold that most people disagree with you

on so many in fact yeah that's great man

that's good

um the first one I'm gonna say is what's

the thing that most people disagree with

me on trying to decide between I'm gonna

say I'm gonna say the point about

manifestation

um I think this is super controversial

because anything that

gives centers people on a sense of

personal responsibility is typically not

well received like people don't love the

concept of personal responsibility

obviously there's lots of nuance to this

but I would say that when the way that

society and culture and Instagram have

described the process of manifestation

is largely [ __ ]

um and I think that manifest like

knowing that like the example always

give is getting in the current sector

Sat Nav is of course important because

if I just drove without Direction I'd be

lost but if I don't drive

I'm also just sat in my garage with a

Sat Nav set all day

um

I don't think you can just manifest your

your yourself your way there in life I