This is what I learned from 20 years of

being in the Navy Seals. Discipline,

drive, how to make decisions under

pressure, leadership, strategy, and

tactics that you can apply to business

and you can apply to your life as well.

So, let's go.

Jaco Willink is a former Navy Seals

officer

who uses his decades of military

training to help people become masters

of discipline and master their lives.

Your excuses will destroy you. Your

default mode should be to take ownership

because if these problems are because of

me, then I'm capable of fixing these

problems.

So, what's step one?

First of all, small steps can be

painful. Even something as simple as

going to the gym. If you're completely

out of shape, sometimes that can be

enough to make you say, "I'm not doing

it anymore." You need to envision a path

of where this can lead you to. Number

two, most human instinct is to hesitate.

But you see that problem over there, you

got to go solve that problem. It's not

going to go away. So, if you're in the

woods and you don't know where to go,

start walking. And worst case scenario,

you figure out that you walked the wrong

direction. Okay, now you can go walk in

the other direction. But standing there

not doing anything is just waiting to

starve to death. And the next challenge,

detach from your emotions. Good leaders

have control of our emotions. If I have

to yell at you to get my point across,

I've made like 47 other mistakes. My

goal is I don't have to say a word and

you already know what to do.

Is there anything else that you'd add to

that list?

Absolutely. In fact, people don't really

talk about this and this could apply to

just about anything. So if you're the

type of person that doesn't, you're

going to struggle.

Jocker, was there a hardest day while

you were in the Navy Seals?

Yeah,

that was the lowest point of my life.

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episode.

[Music]

Joo, surprisingly,

I couldn't find an awful lot in your

childhood that would indicate to me how

you became the man that you are today.

And I say that because there's a bit of

a stereotype that someone like you who

becomes a Navy Seal must have some kind

of traumatic early event that shaped

them to become some ultra resilient

human being. When you look back on your

childhood,

what are the sort of dominoes that fell

in that early chapter of your life that

made you the man you are today? I wish I

could positively identify the thing, the

moment. The closest I've come is that I

a little kid. I was a little kid. I

wanted to be some kind of soldier. I

wanted to be some kind of commando. And

that's I so I collected little little

soldiers, little plastic soldiers. And

one of the I had different military

units like historical military units

from around the world. And one of the

historical military units that I had was

the British commandos. And so I had

these tiny figurines and they had

machine guns and they had kayaks and

they had uh little boats, little

inflatable boats. And I thought to

myself, that's what I want to do. I I

want to do that. I I wish I could do

that. And then when I was probably

around

12 or 13, I realized you actually could

do that. You could actually get the job

of being a commando. And then it was

just a matter of figuring out which one

of the American branches had the closest

thing to what I thought was a British

commando. And the closest thing that I

found was being in the being in the Navy

and being in the SEAL teams.

And at 19 years old, you applied to be a

Navy Seal.

Mhm.

Okay. So, I have to ask a very dumb

question here, which is what is a Navy

Seal? So

there's special operations which I guess

you know from England this is the the

the SAS and the SBS. So those are the

two sort of units that we get compared

to the most. And uh so a Navy Seal is a

part of the Navy but you're the special

operations component of the Navy. And

the the term SEAL is actually an acronym

which stands for sea, air, and land.

Because even though we're in the Navy,

we are trained to operate in the sea. In

the air, so in the sea meaning we dive,

in the air meaning we parachute and

repel, and then on the land meaning we

conduct land warfare operations. And you

take all those things, combine them

together, and that's what our job

consists of. I was under the assumption

that to become a Navy Seal or to be in

the SAS, you had to have 10 20 years in

of military service. You had to have

like an established military service and

then you get some like pop up on your

computer and it says like come to this

this building over here. And so to hear

that you applied at 19 years old, I was

like, "Oh, I didn't know teenagers could

apply." Yeah. No, I I was 18 years old

when I joined the Navy and I joined on a

contract that got me sent to SEAL

training and it took a year to get

through. So I was 19 when I finished

that up.

There is there's always debates about

well don't you want someone that's more

experienced and I actually loved the

fact that I was basically raised in the

SEAL teams. It it was just awesome. It

was an awesome way to grow up. It was an

awesome way to spend those those years

of your life learning the trade that you

wanted to learn. And so I thought it was

awesome and I think it worked out pretty

well. There is a

usually the the the percentage of people

that make it through SEAL training is

about 20%. People that are under the age

of 20, it goes down to about 5%. So

yeah, I was one of those like small

percentage of people that are very young

but still make it through.

And what is the characteristics that

they're ultimately testing with the

design of that training? What are they

testing for?

Will you keep going

in the face of

whatever?

Well, they they call the uh one of the

weeks hell week, don't they?

Mhm.

So, they try and simulate hell by the

sounds of it.

Yeah. They try and simulate hell. It's

it's

they actually were trying to simulate

combat initially when they created that

week. They wanted to take as much combat

simulation from World War II at the time

and put it into a very compressed

schedule so they could create these frog

men to go overseas and conduct

operations cuz World War II was going

on. And so they needed to compress the

training cycle. So they compressed a

bunch of that combat simulation into

it's about 5 and a half days, no sleep,

lots of physical activity, lots of

stress, lots of pain, and lots of people

quit.

How many people quit in that particular

week? Mo

I would say most of the people that quit

probably of of

it's probably 80% of the quitters quit

in that week. It's been long discussed.

I think there's a book um called Grit

where they discuss what it takes in

terms of character traits to get through

these kinds of endurance tasks. And

people often think it's those that have

the biggest muscles or that do the most,

I don't know, cardiovascular exercise.

But from what you've observed, and this

is maybe a broader point about adversity

in life, is there any similarities in

the people that are able to get

themselves through adversity? It it's

there's there's some internal

drive that you either have or you don't

have. And if you have it, you won't

quit. And if you don't have it, you're

going to quit. And it breaks people. The

other thing is you might be an

exceptional swimmer

and you might be exceptional upper body

strength but you're not that fast of a

runner. They're going to find that out.

Or you might be a fast runner but a bad

swimmer. They're going to find out what

your weaknesses. You might not like the

cold. They're going to see it. You might

not like the boat on your head. They're

going to see it.

They might see that you have a bad

temper. are going to find that and

they're going to pick at that thing to

either make you come out the other side

or make you quit. It's a pretty It's a

pretty amazing

thing. It's a pretty It's a pretty

amazing thing. It's a pretty profound

thing to look at from the outside and

and and see it cuz when I was going

through it, it was just sort of I was

young. I didn't care. I was going to do

it. There was nothing that they were

going to tell me that was going to make

me quit. I never thought about quitting.

If they told me to get back in the water

again, let's go. They told me to put

that log on on my shoulder, let's go.

Put the boat on my head, let's go. I I I

didn't care. Can you teach that? That

let's go. Let's We're going to jump back

in the water. Let's go.

I think that I think that's one of the

few things that you learn in basic SEAL

training is to shrug your shoulders and

go forward.

Like, one of the things they do is

they'll they'll line you up on the

ocean. And this is in California. And

sometimes people think that California

is nice warm water, but it's not. It's

55 degrees. And I don't know what that

translates to in centiggrade, but it's

cold. And one of the things they do is

they'll they'll line you up and they say

interlock arms and you get arm- arm with

the guy next to you and they say forward

march. And you march in the water and

they say take seats and you sit down and

they leave you in there and it's called

surf torture. And you just sit there and

they'll after a while they'll pull you

up out of the water. They'll line you up

and the doctor will come down and see if

anyone has hypothermia. And if no one

has hypothermia or signs of hypothermia

yet, get back in the water. And then

they just keep doing that. And so, yeah,

it's uh what you learn to do is okay,

I'm going to go forward. There's no I

can't get out of this. I'm going to go

forward. I'm not going to quit. So, I'm

going to go forward. Bring it on. And I

think if there's anything that you

learn, it's to to

keep pushing

through things that suck. And I would

love to say like, oh, so keep pushing

through adversity, but this isn't

adversity. This is just things that

suck. It's one level below adversity.

Adversity is when you're having a

challenge. This is just something that's

going to suck, and you're going to have

to push through it. cuz I'm asking

myself if this is something I could

teach, you know, or I could be taught

because I I look at someone like you

who's, you know, done all the things

that you've done through your life and I

go, did did you have some kind of innate

advantage or can we all become Joo?

If I had to guess,

I would say no. I I would say you can't

teach it. I would say that you can grow

it. If you've got the seed of some sort

of fire,

you could probably grow and you can get

better at it. But

it's same thing. You go back to like

prison. If you've ever met anyone that

was a prisoner of war

or people that went through like the

Baton Death March, there's some people

that had a will that they were not going

to die.

They I'm not going to die. I'm going to

keep going. And and the people that

died, they they did not have the will to

live. And think about how bad things

have to be before you say, you know

what, I'm just going to lay here and

die.

That and that can get to that point. I

had a guy on my podcast that was he was

shot down in Vietnam and he was shot

down in South Vietnam, captured and so

he had to do a seven-month trek through

the jungle with his captors and at one

point he's in a two-ft tall bamboo cage

in the jungle and he's trying to fall

asleep but he can't sleep because the

rats are gnawing at the wounds on his

legs and and he shackled.

And he was with guys

that

did not have the the intrinsic will to

carry on. And if you didn't have that

will to carry on, you die.

You talked about the role that having a

why plays and I was thinking about, you

know, if I just if I just lost my

girlfriend or someone I'd gone through

some severe rejection or someone in my

life had died and their part my parting

promise to them was I was going to do

this. The role that having some kind of

reason to carry on plays in how we

handle adversity or things that suck.

Did you see have you seen any patterns

in that? Is it important? cuz there's

books behind me that literally say start

with your why and those kinds of things.

Yeah. And you know that's a

anything from oh my girlfriend dumped me

and I'm going to prove her wrong to

something that much more significant

which is my girlfriend died and I told

her I was going to do this. I'm going to

do it for her. Both those things

depending on the human being can be a

strong enough I a strong enough why to

get through. And I've I've I have

friends that were

I have one friend that was into Vietnam.

He was in Vietnam and when he showed up

SEAL training, he didn't know what it

was. He thought he was volunteering to

be like a diver, a a diver that would do

construction under under boats. He

thought that that that what it was. And

so he showed up and they're like, "This

is SEAL training. He's what's a seal?"

And they kind of explained it to him and

then he went and made it through all

that torture, all that mayhem. And why?

cuz that was what they were telling him

to do. And he was, "Okay, that's what

we're doing. Let's go." So, again, I

would love to be able to, you know, give

you this profound anchor that people

need to have, but it's like, "Oh, do do

you want to do this or not?" Which is

what I think a lot of it boils down to.

Do you actually want to do this or not?

Do you actually want to do this or not?

Because if you actually want to do it,

what's going to stop you? Nothing. And

if you don't really want to do it,

what's going to stop you? Just about

anything that comes up, just about any

obstacle that gets in your way becomes

an excuse. It becomes a reason. It comes

a rationale for not proceeding down that

path. And and and this is interesting,

too. You when you talk to people that

went to SEAL training that didn't make

it, most of the time it's

some reason. There's a medical reason.

There's a family problem. There's very

few people that look at you and say,

"Oh, I quit cuz it sucked." Which is

what, by the way, which is what happens

to the vast majority of people. The vast

majority of people that don't make it

through SEAL training, and by this I

mean 80 90% of the people that don't

make it through SEAL training, they

didn't make it through because they

quit. Then there's a small percentage

that had a medical problem. And then

there's a small percentage that got

performance dropped, meaning they

couldn't perform the runs, the swims,

the the the technical aspects of the

job, and they failed. and they get

dropped. But the vast majority of

people, they quit. But they don't

usually say that. And even in their

mind, they probably don't believe it.

They probably believe, well, you know,

it was my leg and once my leg was

hurting, I knew I was going to have a

hard time on the runs. And since I

wasn't going to be able to make the

runs, I just that's why I quit. But it

wasn't really quitting. It was cuz my

leg.

So, it's it's it's like I said, it's a

very it's a very strange and and and and

really kind of a a mystical thing.

Excuses. You're talking there about

people making excuses.

Yeah.

What have you come to learn about the

nature of excuses and if they are our

friends, our enemies, if they're ever

useful,

your excuses will destroy you and take

everything that you ever wanted from you

if you let them.

Doesn't sound like a friend.

No, it's definitely not a friend. It's

definitely not a friend. It It can seem

like a friend just like your friend that

uh keeps feeding you drinks at the bar

can seem like a friend, but are they

really helping you in any way, shape, or

form? No, they're not. They're not. So,

when you when your excuses make you feel

a little bit better about the fact that

you didn't execute on what you needed to

execute on,

then they can make you feel better, but

they're not helping you. They're not

helping you at all. Is that what you

when you think about extreme ownership,

which is the title of um this book here

in front of me, is are excuses the

opposite? Excuses and blame, is that the

opposite of extreme ownership? That is

the opposite of extreme ownership.

Extreme extreme ownership is this went

wrong. This failed, didn't accomplish

this, and it's not the fault of my boss.

It's not the fault of my girlfriend.

It's not the fault of my parents. It's

not the fault of the weather. It's my

fault, and I'm going to take ownership

of it, and I'm going to fix it. That's

what extreme ownership is. And this is a

very difficult thing to do because it

hurts. Because when you look around at

your life and you look around at your

job and your financial situation and

your relationship and your physical

health and when you look at all those

things and all the problems that you may

have with those things and you say, "The

reason I have all those problems

is because of me."

That can hurt. That can sting.

And a lot of times our ego rejects that

and makes excuses and lies and then we

don't have to change anything and then

nothing changes

if someone was on the extreme end of

that disease of excuse and blame and all

of those things. Is there anything that

you could do or you would advise them to

do to kind of walk back from there to

get over the other side? Because I think

we can all think of people in our lives

and maybe even ourselves at times who

have gotten into a chronic pattern of

using excuses and blame as a form of

self-defense because we don't want to

turn that mirror back at us and have to

confront reality. Like I think sometimes

if I think about my some of my closest

friends, those that have the lowest

self-esteem will use excuses and blame

the most because it's,

you know, personal responsibility might

not in the short term at least do

anything for my already low self-esteem.

So I'm going to blame the world as

self-defense. What's step one to get out

of that? Well, unfortunately, what

happens a lot, and you you may or may

not have seen this, but I I would assume

you've seen this at some point in your

life,

people, and this is a term. There's a

term it's rock bottom, right? This is a

term that we hear for someone that's

addicted, someone that's an alcoholic,

someone that's physically let themselves

go, someone that's put themselves into a

situation with their finances or their

work or whatever, where they reach rock

bottom. But when it when it when the

excuses all go away and people can

actually confront the fact that this is

all because of me and this is it hurts

but is also unbelievably empowering

because if these problems are because of

me then I'm

capable of fixing these problems. So

even though extreme ownership hurts and

is painful, it's also liberating because

now you have control over your fate and

over your destiny and that is a glorious

thing. Is that to you how you start to

build confidence? Confidence seems to be

this really elusive thing. Confidence

ultimately is a belief you have and

these beliefs are like instruction

manuals for our life. You must have seen

in your you know in your all your years

some people really build their

confidence and I guess you've seen other

people destroy their confidence.

So what is the nature of how we build

our own confidence?

Yep. You're right. I have seen it and

I've had to do it to people. I had to

take people and build their confidence.

And so how do you do that? You know, if

you're a young officer in the SEAL teams

and you you feel like maybe you kind of

got here, you got lucky, you barely made

it through training and all of a sudden

I'm saying, "Hey, you're in charge of

this squad right here." And you don't

feel like you have the confidence to do

it. And so it comes time to make a

decision and you're sort of looking

around and the guys are looking at you

like, "Hey, you going to make a call or

what?" And finally someone just steps on

you and says, "Hey, I got it. Hey,

everyone move over to this building."

And now your confidence goes down even

lower, which is a problem. So how am I

going to build your confidence? Well,

what I'm going to do is I'm going to

take you I'm going to put you into a

situation

that I know you can handle. I'm going to

put I'm going to give you a task that I

know you can do. It's look, it's not

going to be a total softball. It's not

going to be a joke of a task, but I'm

going to give you something that I know

you can handle. And I'm going to let you

do that. And I might let you do that

two, three, four, five times. I might

say, "Hey, on this next operation,

Stephen, I want you to uh you're going

to you're going to you're going to hold

the left flank with your with your

squad. The whole everyone else is

assaulting buildings. They're setting up

external SC. You're just Hey, just you

just hold this. You just set your team

up on this burm over here

and and watch to the north. And look,

this is a pretty easy job. All right.

And so you go out there, you take your

team, you get on the burm, you look to

the north, you do a good job.

confidence goes up a little bit. Now,

look, there was no pressure. You didn't

have to make any decisions, but you did

what you were supposed to do. And I

might have you do that two or three

times. And then the next time I say,

"Hey, you know what? Hey, good job out

there. I'm going to build up your

confidence a little bit." And then I'm

going to say, "Hey, I need you to handle

security to the north

and to the west." All right? So, you're

going to have two squads now. So, I'm

just going to give you small tasks that

I know you can handle to build up your

confidence and over time you will become

more and more confident and you're going

to hit some challenges and you'll

overcome those challenges and if you do

great your confidence grow if you fail

in a challenge I might have to reset you

a little bit but this this sounds like a

big long process but it's actually

usually not that long it's actually

people kind of nod their head oh yeah I

can do this contrarily sometimes I get a

a guy who's overconfident

and you know I got Stephen walking here

like uh you're darn right I should be in

charge and what do I do with you because

now you got an ego you're not listening

to people now I'm like hey Stephen you

know since you're doing so awesome why

don't you run this whole assault team

tonight and you go yeah no problem and

then you get out there and you're not

ready to lead a whole assault team

you're not ready for that chaos and that

confusion and that mayhem and so about

halfway through the assault when there's

you've completely lost control. I might

walk in and say, "Hey, Stephen, I'm

sending Chief down there to straighten

you out." And you go, "Roger, thank

you." And you get humbled.

So, if someone's trying to build

confidence from a work perspective, we

do the same thing. Whether it's a a

business, a company, give that person a

task, a project that they can handle and

help them build their confidence. Now,

as far as you as an individual human

being, it's a very similar process.

Train,

study,

work, practice.

Train, study, work, practice. Train,

study, work, practice. And eventually

you will increase your confidence.

So I in your book you were talking about

the fact that you didn't like speaking.

You didn't like public speaking. So what

did you do? Did you sign up to go talk

in front of a thousand people, you know,

tomorrow afternoon? No, you started

small and you built a little bit of

confidence and then you win a little bit

bigger of an audience and the confidence

grows a little bit more. Little bit

bigger audience, the confidence grows

and you get to a point where there's no

audience that's going to stumble you in

any way. So that's the same process.

It's it's basically exposure therapy,

right? It's it's basically exposure

therapy where you expose yourself to a

little bit and this is you know you're

talking about Jordan Peterson exposure

therapy. I give you a little bit. I

don't overwhelm you with it because if I

overwhelm you with it, you're going to

be scared of it. I mean, if you lack

confidence and I put you in charge of

something that you can't handle, your

confidence is going to go back even

further. So, I need to give you enough

exposure that you do well, increase your

confidence, and you're going to do fine.

Whenever we're swimming, I don't know, a

couple of centimeters just outside of

our depth in any regard, we have that

thing that some people have dubbed

imposter syndrome where we start, the

story we tell ourselves about this depth

is that we're a fraud. We shouldn't be

out this far. Um, we're going to get

found out. And that can sometimes I

think if we tell ourselves that story

about whatever, you know, depth we're

swimming at, that lowers our

performance. Sometimes it can make us

our confidence decrease. What is your

take on this term imposter syndrome? Do

you think it's a real thing?

Yeah, I think it's a real thing and I

don't think it's bad. I don't think it's

bad because if once again, if you're

coming to work for me and you're like,

I'm glad you hired me. I'm ready to take

over this department. Look out.

I'd be a little bit questioning

the fact that you're so overconfident

that you're going to go in and do things

that you might not really understand.

Now, if you had a little imposter

syndrome and you said, "Hey, Jo, I

really appreciate you hiring me. Um, you

know, I haven't really done this type of

work before. Can I ask you a couple

questions?" I'd be thinking to myself,

"Okay, he's humble.

He's wanting to do a good job. He

doesn't think he knows everything." I'd

feel more comfortable with someone like

that. So, I don't think imposttor

syndrome is a bad thing. I think if you

feel it, it's actually a good indication

that you're humble and you have an open

mind and you're going to listen to what

people have to say. So that's number

one. And number two, if you feel like

you have imposttor syndrome, if you

going to

a meeting and you're going to get

assigned a project or you're going to be

discussing a project that you're really,

wait, should I even be here? Should I be

put in charge of this project? What you

do is you go into the meeting and you

say, hey everyone, I really appreciate

everyone coming to the kickoff of this

meeting. Hey, just so everyone knows,

this is my first time running a project

like this. I'm definitely going to have

some questions for some of you that done

this before. So, if you see me going off

track on something and you see a mistake

that I'm making, please let me know

because what I want is for the team to

win.

Okay, there it is. It's on the table. I

don't know everything. I'm not that

experienced in this particular thing,

but I'm humble and willing to listen,

and I want the team to do well. No more

imposter syndrome.

Is that the same in the Navy Seals? cuz

one would assume that you, you know, as

a leader, you've got to tell people what

to do.

That is

wrong. In the Navy Seals, and that is

not a good assumption. In the SEAL

teams, you the good leaders in the SEAL

teams absolutely have an open mind, want

to hear other people's opinions on how

to execute an operation, want to hear

what shortfalls there are when a plan is

presented that, hey, what about this and

what about that? And a good leader is

not going to impose plan as in fact my

standard operating procedure was to have

my subordinate leadership come up with

plans instead of me trying to come up

with the plans. In fact, that's the best

way to operate.

That means you ask them for the plan

100%.

Why?

There's a multitude of reasons. Number

one, I want you to have ownership of the

plan, right? So, if I'm imposing a plan

on you, then that's not really your

plan. I want you to I want you to come

up with a plan and I want you to go to

your team and I want you to collectively

come up with a plan that you all embrace

and understand and buy into. So, it's

going to be a better plan from your

perspective if you come up with it.

Also, if I come up with a plan, I'm in

the plan. So, when I'm in the plan, I

can't see the plan as well. I want to be

outside the plan looking at it from the

outside from a different perspective

where then I can see the holes in the

plan and I can ask you some questions

about the plan that you came up with.

And finally, if I'm coming up with a

plan, if I'm staring down at the map

coming up with a plan, well, who's

looking up and out? Who's looking at the

followon operations? Who's looking at

where our our other units are out in the

battlefield? Who's checking on the

intelligence that we're gathering about

the enemy? If I'm looking down and in,

I'm not looking up and out. If I'm

coming up with a plan myself, I'm

looking down and in. If I'm letting you

come up with a plan, I can look up and

out. You can look down and in. And we

can have a lot more awareness of the

battlefield.

Often leaders and managers, we get, I

think, caught up in

in the proverbial trenches. We get a

little bit too close to the painting, so

we can't see the picture.

How important do you think it is to be

the leader that's able to take a step

back?

That is the job of a leader. That is the

job of a leader to take a step back,

detach from the situation and

see the entire picture of what is

unfolding or what is being planned or

what is happening.

If you are in the problem, you won't see

the solution to the problem.

it it you we will very rarely. So you

have to be able to detach. And that's

one of the the main things that I tried

to teach young leaders when I was in the

SEAL teams. It's the same thing that I

try and teach leaders now is to take a

step back, detach from the chaos, detach

from the mayhem, detach from your

emotions, detach from your ego, and be

able to assess the best way to execute

and

give, you know, the book, the book is

called Extreme Ownership that you

referenced. That doesn't mean that I do

everything myself.

In fact, what I want to do is I want you

to take ownership. And how do I get you

to take ownership? I give it to you.

Hey, Stephen, how do you want to run

this project?

And and listen,

what if you come up with a terrible

plan? Oh, no. No. Let's say let's say

you come up with a let's say I come up

with like I in my mind I've got

something that's going to be a 95%

solution. And I say, well, you know, I'm

going to delegate. So, Stephen, how do

you want to do this? And you come up

with like an 80% solution. Now, what

should I do?

I'll tell you. I'll still let I'll still

run with your plan. I'll be like, "Okay,

Stephen, sounds good." If you come to me

with a 70% plan, I might say, "Hey,

Stephen, what about this?" And you go,

"Yeah, I'm going to make adjustment

there." And all of a sudden, we got it

to a 78% plan and we're still good. If

you come to me with a 20% plan now, I

can ask you three or four questions

before you say, "Hey, Jo, let me I'll be

back in a couple hours. I'm gonna go

reformulate this thing." And by the way,

all that's training you, right? All

those questions are training you. You

coming up with a plan is training for

you. Because if if I'm got people that

work for me and they can't come up with

a plan by themselves, I'm complete

failure as a leader. So, I'm going to

train you so that you can come up with

plans and I can look up and out.

takes a lot of patience, doesn't it?

Because you know, you know, in those

many of those situations that you're not

going to get from A to B as fast as you

possibly could have.

It's a investment in a long-term

efficiency because even though I might

have to invest a little bit more time

right now and I spent 10 minutes

explaining to you why this tactic would

be better than that tactic, even though

it's going to cost me 10 minutes right

now or maybe a half an hour, we look up

in 6 months and you're actually coming

up with better plans than me.

You know, I read throughout your books

you went from being that young teenager

who passed training to really like

leading the Navy Seals in many respects.

Well, leading an element of SEALs. Yeah,

that's um when you look back on that

accomplishment,

have you figured out what it is about

you in particular

that allowed you enabled you to do that?

Is that something? Is that Is there a

muscle you grew?

I was I'm a hard worker.

I,

you know, I I was never great at

anything like as a kid. I wasn't the

fastest. I wasn't the strongest. I

wasn't the smartest.

But I did I did know that I could work

hard. I had to work hard and I listened

to people. I didn't think I knew

everything. I I even sometimes I'll joke

about, yeah, you know, when you're young

and arrogant, even when I was young and

arrogant, like we all are when we're 23

years old or 22 years old and you're

young, you think you know everything.

Even then, I always had that little like

you don't know everything. And I think

that humility paid a played a big role

in me being able to be successful

because I was never afraid to say, "Hey,

I'm not 100% sure what to do right now.

What do you guys think?" Or, "Hey, I

feel like I've reached the limitations

of my thought process. I need some

help." And so, I think that's one of the

main reasons that I was able to to to do

a good job to do to do a good job. When

I meet someone like you, I I wonder I

go, "This guy must have seen so many

things. So many things that the average

human being will absolutely never see,

you know, and I cuz you were you were

sent all around the world on some

absolutely incredible unimaginable

missions for for 20 20 years for for the

average person who has no idea what your

eyes have seen.

Can you paint me a picture of some of

those extremes?

Well, it's war.

So,

it's it's war.

It's

people being wounded, people being

killed in Iraq with the insurgents that

we were fighting. It's them

torturing people, mutilating their

bodies, raping

beheading people

horror.

But you know, it's interesting when when

I talk to other people, when I meet

people, I always think to myself,

what you're saying that you think when

you see me, I always think that when I

see other people because

other people, we don't know what they've

been through. You don't know what kind

of childhood they've had. You don't know

what kind of horrors they've seen. You

don't know what kind of abuse they've

suffered. you don't want to kind of you

don't know what kind of trials and

tribulations other people have faced. So

I I don't I I look at everyone and and

and also the trials and tribulation that

someone face someone faces

that that's profoundly difficult for

them regardless of what it was

regardless of if they were a a person

that you know got injured really bad.

they're when they were in high school,

they're 15 years old and they broke

their leg and they they they couldn't

play their sport anymore and now they're

17, but that was a traumatic thing for

them.

And yeah, so when I when I look at other

people, when I talk to other people, I

always think everyone everyone every

human faces challenges and you don't

know what they've been through and they

they might have been through things that

are worse than what I've been through.

And I usually my assumption is people

have been through a lot of challenges

and

they they persevered through it and here

they are. So I'm going to give them the

benefit of the doubt.

But humans aren't supposed to be exposed

to those kinds of images. And I think if

you spoke to, I know a trauma

psychologist, they would they would

class a lot of those things that you've

seen as what they call like tort

traumas, like really really traumatic

events. How how does someone like you go

about processing those things to ensure

that that trauma doesn't show up in

later life? You know, we talk about

soldiers coming back from war suffering

with PTSD and things like that. What

have you done to sort of insulate

yourself or at least help you understand

some of some of the things you saw?

There's evil in the world.

when there's evil people in the world

and evil people are going to do heinous

and atrocious things

and that's a reality and that's always

been the reality

and the best thing that I can do is well

when I was in the military do my best to

to stop that kind of atrocious behavior

and

when and I'm out of the military. Try

not to try and

help people move away from those

thoughts. I mean, when you're talking

about like your my my family like my

family didn't

they my wife wasn't tracking what was

going on when I was overseas. She didn't

know what was happening

most of the time. you know, when my guys

got wounded or my guys got killed, she

knew. She went to their she went to the

hospital to visit them. She went to

their funerals, but I wasn't dragging

her down

the the

to the depths of human nature.

I took that and same with my kids. I

didn't share with them that these things

happen. So, and and that's so so I think

from my perspective,

you know, it's like the reality of the

world is yeah, there's evil people in

the world.

I accept that reality. I understand that

reality. There's also good people in the

world and there's people that do amazing

things. There's people that sacrifice

their lives for their friends

and that's part of humanity.

So I like to focus on that part of

humanity rather than

the dark side of humanity. But if you

really want to appreciate the

the light and the good, then you have to

recognize that there's darkness and

there's evil.

Was there a hardest day while you were

in the Navy Seals? Is there a day you

look back on and say that was the the

most sort of emotionally testing day?

Yeah. Losing guys in combat

and that stays with you?

Oh yeah.

Always.

I just can't imagine,

you know, I just can't I've never lost a

friend. I've got two older brothers.

I've never lost my brothers. I just

can't imagine. I can't imagine how

difficult it is to like go forward when

you've lost, you know, you refer to

these people as your brothers

and

I'm not unique.

And the guys we were over in the Battle

of Amati when we were over there, the

the Army and the Marine Corps, they were

losing guys every day. This is not

unique. I'm not unique. There's guys

that were in charge of units that lost

10, 12, 15 guys.

And

it's not unique for human beings either

because even though you haven't lost any

friends, you haven't lost any of your

brothers,

you will.

This is part of life.

And so

this is part of life.

people have, you know, everyone's died

and in combat people have died and

people carried on

and I know that my friends that died,

they would not want me to sit around and

mourn and and and

break down and drink and and and pop

pills. They wouldn't want me to do that

at all. They'd want me to live. That's

what they would want. They would want me

to live. They want me to go out and make

things happen

and and drive on and enjoy and surf and

play guitar and do jiu-jitsu. That's

what they'd want me to do. 100%. 100%.

In fact, they would be disgusted

if what I did with the gift that they

gave me was piss it away. They'd be

disgusted. And I won't do that. Not Not

a chance.

I'm going to live like they would want

me to.

In those moments,

that's certainly what logic tells you.

But those moments, it's hard to be

logical in those moments, right?

Yeah.

I

ended up with some pattern recognition

on this whole scenario.

Unfortunately, because when you lose

friends over and over and over again,

you start to see what happens from an

emotional perspective, from a spiritual

perspective, from a physical

perspective.

And what I what I

began to recognize as a pattern is and

the way that I explain this to people

that go through loss like this is you're

going to have you're not going to be in

control of your emotions sometimes. So,

and since you're 31 years old, you've

had control pretty good control over

your emotions since you were 7 years old

or 8 years old. Occasionally you'd break

down. Occasionally you'd lose your

temper. But you've gotten more and more

in control the older you've got gotten.

So you're not used to not being in

control of your emotion. We as adults

are not used to losing control of our

emotions. So what's going to happen? You

lose one of your friends. You lose one

of your family members. You're going to

get hit with a wave waves of emotion

that you can't control.

And this sometimes

causes people to to

really overreact

and think that they're in this terrible

place cuz they think, "Oh my gosh, I've

been able to control my emotions for the

last 30 years and now I'm losing now I'm

I'm I can't control my emotions. There's

something wrong with me." Is what they

think.

And this is what I learned is that those

waves of emotion,

they're gonna they're gonna roll back

and you're gonna you're going to get

control again. You're going to take a

breath and then you're going to get hit

with another storm, but it's going to go

away. And you're going to get hit with

another storm, but it's not going to be

as strong.

And then it's going to go away. And

you're going to get hit with another

storm, but it's going to be a longer

period of time. and it's not going to be

as strong.

And what this is is this is your

this is you processing what happened.

And eventually you do get you regain

control of your emotions. And there's

still going to be times there's still

going to be times where you're going to

be 3 years, 5 years, 10 years down the

road, you're going to hit with a wave of

emotion and

you're going to be caught off guard.

It's going to catch you. I had a guy on

my podcast

that was in World War II, Korea, and

Vietnam.

And so we were we we talked about World

War II where he was, you know, a young

private soldier. And then he was a

little bit more senior when he was in

Korea. And then in Vietnam, he was a

battalion commander. So he's in charge

of 700 guys.

and we we were talking and I I I said

something along the lines of I I asked

him something about his the casualties

that he took in his battalion. And so

now this is you know he was in Vietnam

in I don't know 1967 or 1968 so it's

been 60 years

and I asked him about casualties that he

took and he got choked up.

Got choked up. lost control of his

emotions for a for a second. And when I

saw that,

I felt so relieved.

I felt so relieved because I thought,

"Oh, it's always going to be like this."

And that's okay. It's okay. It's okay.

It's normal. Lost your friends, lost

your brothers.

Is it Is it Is it wrong that you get

choked up when you talk about There's

nothing wrong with that. Here's a guy

that lost his lost lost some of his men

60 years ago and he's getting choked up

right now. Why? Cuz he loved him.

Cuz he he wishes he could have brought

him through that conflict and he didn't

and he feels it and he lived a normal

life. Retired from the army, got follow

on jobs and had another career.

But he lost his friends, his brothers,

his men, and that hurts. And it's not

going to go away. And that's okay.

There's nothing wrong with you. Nothing

wrong with me. There's nothing wrong

with me. Do I get choked up sometimes?

Sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

I lost some of my best friends.

Does that hurt? Yep.

Do I wallow in that? No.

Do I dwell in those emotions? Nope. I

don't. And they wouldn't want me to. and

they'd be disappointed if I did.

I think it's really important because as

men we we don't we get conflicting

messages about emotion and how to

express it and what that looks like and

if there's weakness to certain emotions

or if you know but the it's the

psychology seems to be pretty clear that

the suppression of these emotions, the

trying to hide them, the total

compartmentalizing of them doesn't

actually make them goes go away. They

just appear somewhere else in a bottle

or in some kind of recreational drug or

somewhere else. So, and nor does

suppressing them isn't going to help.

And nor is letting them run your life.

So,

because you're sad now you're going to

make a bunch of bad decisions cuz you're

sad. No. No. It doesn't doesn't work

like that. Doesn't work like that.

You're sad. Okay.

You get emotional sometimes. Okay. Got

it. Now, get control of your emotions

and carry on with your life. And

sometimes you're going to get hit with

those waves, and that's okay. I I think

that's a big misconception

and sort of relates to what you're

saying.

Oh, I'm I'm having an emotional moment

right now. There's something wrong with

me. No, there's nothing wrong with you.

There's nothing wrong with you. The

other extreme is, oh, I'm letting my

emotions run my life and I'm making a

bunch of bad decisions and my excuse is,

well, you know, I lost some friends or I

had this traumatic experience happen to

me. That's why I'm doing that's just an

excuse and it's a very easy excuse. And

in society, the last thing I want to say

to you is, well, you can't act like

that. Oh, you lost one of your friends.

Hey, that doesn't mean you can make

excuse. You can't use that excuse. No, I

I go,

"Hey, man. Uh, okay." It's what I say,

right? I'm a polite person. I'm

empathetic person. You're sad. You're

making bad decisions. You're saying it's

cuz you lost your friend or you went

through this traumatic thing. And I go,

"Okay, I

how can I help?" Instead of saying,

"Hey, man. Yeah, guess what? It's time

to carry on."

Don't Don't dwell on the I I I've told a

thousand veterans this. Remember, don't

dwell.

Remember, remember your friends. Don't

dwell in the past, though.

Remember, don't dwell. That's what we

have to do.

And the emotions. Yes.

Embrace those emotions, but don't let

those emotions embrace you.

Don't let those emotions run your life.

There is there is a cuz people say, "Oh,

uh, suppressing your emotions is bad."

Okay, so I'm just going to let all these

emotions out and they're going to run my

life now. No, no, no. At a certain

point, you say, "Okay, my emotions are

now leading me down the wrong path.

I'm in control.

I'm not going to allow my emotions to

make my decisions." They're in the

calculus. I'm not saying take your

emotions out of the calculus, but they

have to be one component of your

calculus, not the whole equation. The

equation has to include emotions. Yes.

Logic, yes. Future, yes. Goals, yes.

Family, yes. Work, yes. Finances, yes.

All those things have to be in the

calculus. Emotions has to be a part of

the that calculus. You can't pull them

out of there or they'll bite you. But

you can't make them the overwhelming

denominator of everything that you do or

it's going to be problematic.

I heard you tell a story which I thought

was really inspiring. Actually, I was

just listening to it before you came

about a friend of yours who was going

through hardship in their life and you

your advice for them was to start

walking.

Yeah.

Yeah. It was a guy who was Yeah. going

through hardship with his job, with his

marriage, and the marriage was coming to

an end. The job was not was going to

come to an end as well. And he's out

there and doesn't know what to do.

And the analogy that I set up for him is

if I'm in the woods, which is where you

are right now, you're in the woods and

you don't know where to go cuz the

wife's not there anymore. The job's not

there anymore. You don't know where to

go right now. So if you're in the woods

and you don't know where to go,

start walking.

You got to start walking because the

perspective is not going to change. You

have to start moving forward. You have

to t start start taking steps in order

to improve your vision, improve your

perspective, change your perspective,

make some kind of progress. And worst

case scenario, you figure out that you

walked the wrong direction. Okay, now

you can go walk in the other direction.

And that's that's going to be fine. But

standing there lost and not doing

anything is just waiting to die, waiting

to starve to death.

Don't let that happen.

It's overthinking. It's that anxiety.

It's that ruminating that I think I've I

mean I've done it multiple times in my

life when the solution is I can't get to

certainty on the problem. So I I try and

think my way out of the problem which

only seems to cause more harm than good.

Yeah. There's definitely a level of

risk conditioning that you get inside

the military because there's you're not

you're just not going to be certain

about anything. And you have to be able

to say, "Yep, I'm going to make this

decision right now and here's what we're

going to do. I'm going to make the

smallest decision possible. Going to

take the smallest step possible, but I'm

going to take a step because I'm never

going to know everything. And if I take

the time to try and know everything,

everything will have changed by the time

I know it. So, I'm going to absolutely

take that step and take that action.

I mean, that's a metaphor for life as

well, cuz there's a lot of people trying

to get to 100% certainty whether to

leave the job or the marriage or the

start the business and they're

struggling maybe at 60 70 maybe 80 90%

certainty. But for some reason, we seem

to need,

you know, certainty.

That's why I use the what I what I call

the iterative decision-m process. I'm

only to take small steps. So,

am I trying to leave my I don't like my

job. I'm miserable there. Okay. Does

that mean I walk in tomorrow morning and

say, "Hey, boss, I hate it here. I

quit." No, it doesn't mean that. It

means I say, "Okay, I'm going to start

putting my resume together.

I'm going to start checking out

LinkedIn.

I'm going to start seeing what

qualifications I might need that could

improve my ability to get a new job.

Once I've done that, I'm going to start

sending out my resume. I'm going to

start building some relationships with

some people. And now I look up and I get

another job offer. So, I didn't make a

crazy short-termed emotional decision. I

made a slow, progressive, iterative

decision-making process that led me from

a situation that I didn't like to an

opportunity that seems more promising.

And this could apply to just about

anything.

I see this a lot in businesses. I see

that the the real cost in business. I

spent about 10 years working in

marketing. So I was my job was to work

with the CMO and the CEO helping them to

try and make certain marketing

decisions. You know that invest in this

platform, do this thing, whatever. And I

came to learn over time that the biggest

cost wasn't making a bad decision. It

was the time you waste the nine months

waiting for Joanna to get back from

annual leave so we can have a meeting

with Dave and procurement to get the

invoice signed off versus the CEOs that

I worked with that said, "Let's do it

now." When the decision was quite

clearly

low cost, relatively low cost or

reversible.

Mhm.

It was always speed that seemed to to

pretty much speed that seemed to win out

because most decisions are either

reversible or actually more

inconsequential than you think. Very few

decisions are final. Very few decisions

are final. Even something like buying a

house. Should I buy this house? Oh my

gosh, it seems if you buy a house and

you decide it wasn't the house that you

wanted, you sell the house.

It's like now look, could you get caught

in a bad market and could Yeah, that can

absolutely happen. So, you need to be

smart about your decisions that you

make. But most things are not as final

as they seem. Most things you're going

to be able to and will you look you paid

the realer so you lost 3% there. You

paid the other realer, you lost 3%. You

had to pay the mortgage fees. So you're

going to lose some money, but it's not

like you buy a million- dollar house and

then you decide you don't like it. You

don't lose a million dollars. You lose

80 grand or whatever, you know, and it's

okay. Two years, three years, you get it

back. What? So people think of decisions

as being permanent. Yeah. If you're if

you're in marketing and you approach me

and you say, "Hey, listen, CEO, there's

a new marketing

opportunity that we'd like to get you

into." And I go, "How much did it cost?"

And you say, "A million dollars." And I

say, "Oh, that's a lot of money. Can is

there can I try it for a shorter period

of time?" "Well, yeah, but you won't get

as much for your for you won't get as

much volume." And I say, "Okay, well,

still I don't want to invest that much

cuz I'm not sure about it. Let's test it

and see where it goes." and you say,

"Okay, we'll try that. Here's 100 grand

and let's see what feedback we get, and

if it's good, it's good. If it's not, we

go somewhere else." Do you think you're

conditioned in some ways to have this

sort of um bias towards taking action?

Because if your background in the seals,

there was often some kind of time

urgency. There was some factor that's

causing you to have to take a decision.

Is that

Yeah.

In business and life, there's not

there's not like we're going to lose

this or someone's going to die or

there's going to be an attack. In the

business world, the consequences are

prolonged and usually not as extreme.

So, you can get away with less action

even though eventually it will catch up

with you. And you've got an example of

that in your book. And the the

father-son deal and one of them takes 9

months to execute and the other one

executes immediately. And the one that

executes immediately is successful. The

one that doesn't takes nine months to

execute fails. So it eventually inaction

will cost you in and you say

interestingly that oh in the SEAL teams

you must be conditioned to do this. I

had to condition people to take action

even in the SEAL teams. Even a young

SEAL leader who you would think would be

by nature aggressive and an action

taker. You put them in a pressure

situation where there's not a ton of

information and they need to make a

decision. They don't want to act either.

So, one of the things that I would teach

was that their default mode was to be

aggressive. Their default mode was to

take action. I would teach that. Same

thing we just discussed. I wouldn't say,

"Hey, look, that means you have to take

action." But your default setting should

be I'm going to do something. Cuz I'd

have a young SEAL officer and there'd be

some training mission and there'd be a

problem in a building and there'd be a

bunch of paintball flying around in

there and he wouldn't want to go solve

that problem. he'd back away from that

problem and I would have to go like push

him in the back and say, "You see that

problem over there? You got to go solve

that problem." It's not going to go

away. You got to be aggressive. That's

got to be your default mode is to take

action and make things happen because

most human instinct is to wait. Most

human instinct is to hesitate. Most

human instinct is to let things go

longer and stick with the status quo.

that seems to be on the on the front the

lowest risk

in the situation is to not do anything.

It usually appears to be the lowest

risk. But just like the example that you

gave in your book, it's it definitely

seems lower risk. Oh well, he wants

money, wants investment, new thing and I

don't know the lowest risk in that

situation is to not do anything. And

that's what many people do whether

they're in the SEAL teams or whether

they're in business. So to train people

to oh I need to take risk some level of

risk take action because in the long run

I say seven out of 10 seven out of 10

times action is better than inaction 70%

of the time action there's definitely

times where you got to hesitate there's

definitely times where you got to hold

back there's definitely and that's the

other book you got there is called the

dichotomy of leadership because there's

times yes absolutely action

aggression there's also times the other

end of the spectrum was like, "Yep,

now's not the time to make a move." So,

it's it's definitely a dichotomy, but

the

to me 70% of the time, you better take

that action. That's got to be your

default mode.

I asked you what your your hardest day

in um the seals were and you said about

losing friends, what was what was your

proudest day? Is there a proudest day

where you go, do you know what? I I

really showed up in a in a way that I to

a standard that I held myself to. And

because I did, we accomplished something

great together

against the odds. There's a a multitude

of times where I was in Iraq.

I was in a detached moment in time,

you know, moving down a street,

sitting in a vehicle,

maneuvering, and I was and I was

watching my guys.

I could see my guys and I could see what

they were doing.

And I could see

one of the most beautiful things in the

world, which was guys that were

exceptional at their job, working

together as a team, maneuvering,

protecting each other, accomplishing the

mission.

And I got to see that many times. And

that's always had nothing to do with me.

Had to do with them. Had to do with

being able to see.

Look, were we perfect? No. But were

there moments

when you see an element cover and move

for each other

on the battlefield?

A simple plan with the right priorities

with decentralized command. Was there

times when I got to see all those

things?

Yes. And that without a doubt, those

were those are the best days.

Says something about, you know, and I

think I've kind of seen this throughout

your work is you have a real focus on

service, serving others as a path to I

guess fulfilling yourself. And we often

think I think many people think in life

that the path to self-fulfillment is to

serve yourself. But it seems like you've

kind of figured out that the path is by

serving others.

Yeah, I think that's

there's there's an underlying

core

component and belief and and innate DNA

in the SEAL teams

and that is you take care of your you

take care of your friends

and and that's not

in fact if you're the type of person

that doesn't take care of your friends,

you're not going to be a good seal.

you're not going to be a good seal if if

you put yourself before the team. Look,

you can be a great shot, you can be

strong, you can be fast, all those

things, but no one's going to really

want you in a platoon if you put

yourself above them. And people don't

really talk about that. No one ever told

me that, but you feel it. And if you're

if you're not self-aware,

you could you might slip into where

you're looking out for yourself and it's

a problem. And this happens in life,

too. You know, if you're if you it

happens in business where I see a guy

that he's taking care of himself

and and

you know, it's a smart guy and he

usually thinks he's pretty smart and

usually thinks he's a little bit smarter

than everybody else and usually thinks

that no one else is going to notice that

he's taking care of himself and

everybody sees it. Yeah.

And they dig themselves a grave. They

they dig themselves to graves and they

I'm not saying they don't get away with

it a little bit. Usually they get a

couple promotions, you know, they get to

a spot, but ultimately people don't want

to work with that person and so they

burn their relationships and they don't

do as well as they should.

And which is the the kind of nice thing

is if you take care of other people,

they'll take care of you. If you screw

other over other people, you're you're

gonna get screwed over. So, yeah, I

think there's a there's there's

definitely that underlying theme in the

SEAL teams. I've seen it now in

business.

And it is it is

it is going to if you if you look out

for yourself all the time, it's going to

catch up with you. I think everyone can

relate in this. If anyone's ever worked

in a business and they have colleagues,

I think everyone will be able to think

about the colleague who is always

seeking credit is um is always you know

being selfish in the way that they're

showing up and then they can also think

about the colleague who's the complete

opposite of that and it's often it's

funny it was making me think as you were

speaking that leadership is in fact in

many respects it's given it's not taken.

I.e. the person that's showing up for

other people but also delivering on

their own work is often kind of elected

the leader of the group. This is you

know we talk a lot in business I think

it was Steve Jobs that said the very

very best leaders in my organization

were those that were so good at their

job and they were never thinking about

like being a leader but that's the

reason they ultimately became it.

Yeah. Uh when people ask me and I got a

I got a book I wrote called leadership

strategy and tactics. It's like how to

get promoted. How do you get promoted?

Don't worry about getting promoted. to

focus on the team, focus on the mission,

focus on doing a good job, focus on

supporting your teammates. If you do

those things, you're going to get

promoted. And it it takes you'll have

this, you know, the dark part of your

personality will say, "Yeah, but they're

not going to notice. They need to see me

now." And you'll raise your hand and

say, "I want credit for that." And the

minute you do that, the minute you raise

your hand and say, "Give me credit,"

your credit goes down. It's an

unfortunate truth. The minute you ask

for the accolades, your accolades are

decreased because every you're looking

out for yourself and everyone can smell

that and they don't like it.

Yeah. You're saying that the miss I'm

more important than the mission in some

respects.

Terrible. Terrible.

Did you have people like that in the in

the services when you were you were out

there? People that were clearly selfish

in the seals?

Absolutely. Y

how did you deal with that?

Well, if they were my boss, then I would

make them look good,

build a good great relationship with

them. If they were my peer, I'd make

them look good, build a great

relationship with them. If they worked

for me, I'd make them look good, build a

great relationship with them.

I think that as you you know some people

that have that kind of um

you know they've got some kind of

is it a defect? I think it's probably a

little bit of a defect but they they

just they just feel like they need that

recognition. They feel like they need to

take care of themselves.

And again going back to what I was

saying earlier, like what do they go

through in their life that makes them

think that they got to look out for

themselves? And it'd be kind of nice if

I could be a person that they go, "Man,

this guy's

treating me really good."

And maybe I could help them transform

from someone that doesn't trust that

they're going to get the recognition

that they need to, hey, there's good

people out there and I'd like to be a

part of this team.

Were you ever successful in that

transformation?

I was successful. I was also

unsuccessful. You know, some people are

some people they have that defect and

it's strong and they're going to look

out for themselves and there's very

little you can do about it and you you

know, you try try um but it's it's a

very the ego is a very very powerful

thing. I mean, you know, the eagle is so

powerful that there's countless cases of

military history where a human being got

himself and possibly his troops or his

troops killed

because of his ego. So, if you can die

because of your ego, you can absolutely

make some pretty dramatic mistakes in

the business world because of your ego.

And it happens all the time. It happens

all the time.

leaving

leaving the military. I have this quote

where you said, "So, I'd say if there's

anything that I struggle with now, it's

just that does anything else matter?"

And the answer is no. The answer is no.

Nothing else matters. Nothing else is

close. So, I have to deal with that. You

said that on the Tim Ferrris podcast

talking about your time um in the

services, but also more specifically the

battle of Ramadi. Ramardia.

Mhm. um as being the highlight of your

life. How does one go through sort of 20

years of highintensity combat and all

that adrenaline and all of the you know

gosh it's harder to think of many

greater senses of like purpose and

fulfillment and mission and then

real life.

Yeah.

So, number one, as I mentioned earlier,

remember but don't dwell. And

have you seen the movie

Napoleon Dynamite? No, that's a bummer.

There's a character in the movie

Napoleon Dynamite. His name is Uncle

Rico. And Uncle Rico played football in

high school. And now Uncle Rico

uh lives in a van and sells cooking

wear. So he kind of peaked in high

school and he lives in the past. He's

always talking about state championships

and if he would have play had that extra

point and if coach would have put him

in, he's got he's living in the past.

And so

while that quote right there,

no doubt that you just read from me is

accurate. I mean

there there will not be I don't think

anything in my life that will have as

much intensity as much mission focus as

much meaning as much

as much opportunity as much loss like

that is combat is is like life but

amplified and intensified. So every

emotion that you have like you have an

emotion when you when you formulate a

new plan and when you sell a business or

buy a business you have emotions that's

like combat but it's amplified it's

intensified and it's it's a lot more so

the that quote that you read is true

nothing will compare to that it won't

but I don't want to be like Uncle Rico

living in the past talking about how

this is what it used to be like and if

Yeah, there's my big game. I don't want

to do that. I want to, as I said

earlier, I want to remember, but I don't

want to dwell on the past.

Has it ever crossed your mind to go back

in any capacity?

Oh, yeah. Of course. Yeah. Every time

like a every time a war breaks out

somewhere, you you you want to get your

get your knife out, sharpen it up, and

let's rock and roll. Of course, because

Yeah. Well, because of that quote right

there. like this is this is it. Like

that's that's it. I'm lucky that I got

to do what I got to do, you know? Like

that's a blessing. It's a it's the it's

what I wanted to do since I was a little

kid. I got to do it. And so if you asked

me if I got the chance to do it again,

would I? Yeah, I would 100%.

You could though, right? You could go be

involved in some capacity in the

Seals. Yeah, there's ways there's things

that I could do to, you know, like be a

guner again and all that, but there's

also it's also not the same. So, you

know, if I cuz I retired from the Navy

and and so I'm not in the military

anymore. I still work with the military.

I still train the military, but

to go and be a gunslinger again. Um, now

you're now you're doing something

different. Now you are a mercenary. Now

it's a different situation and

the that component that you talked about

of like mission

brotherhood

is not going to be the same for me and

and quite frankly I think that I

part of me

wants to

not sour

that memory and and all those memories.

I don't want to I don't want to,

you know, I don't I don't want to I

don't want to sour that memory. I I have

a beautiful beautiful memory and I don't

want to tarnish it with me chasing

around the past.

You know, when fighters, they retire

from fighting

and then they they just they they want

to go back, they do it again, and it's

just not the same.

Anderson Silva was like that for me. He

was Superman and then he went back a

couple of times and I didn't want to

watch him get beat up. It was like

Yeah. I that's how that's that's a I

feel like that. I feel like that. I

don't don't think I could rematch my my

Anderson Silva the Spider Championship

run. I don't think I could rematch that.

Discipline is freedom. It's the title of

your um your book here. Discipline

equals freedom. Now, that seems like

it's untrue because when people think of

discipline, they think of rigidity and

and taking away their freedom, having to

be disciplined.

Why is why does discipline equal

freedom?

Because the more discipline you have in

your life, the more freedom you will end

up with.

So if you lack the discipline to

exercise

and eat healthy, you will end up being

a slave to disease.

If you lack the discipline to work hard,

save your money,

you will end up a slave to finances.

If you lack the discipline to manage

your time correctly, you will end up

with no free time.

If you have

self-discipline, if you have the

discipline to save your money and work

hard and invest your money properly, if

you have the discipline to

manage your time correctly and not waste

a bunch of time, if you have the

discipline to exercise and eat healthy,

you will end up with freedom.

And it's I know it's a counterintuitive.

It's contrarian,

but

I've seen this over and over and over

again. If you want freedom in your life,

you have to have discipline.

There's going to be some kid listening

to this now. I always think about the

personas that are listening and they

are, you know, eating Doritos off their

belly.

Spit them out.

[Laughter]

Spit them out. Start now. Because if

you're a kid right now and you're eating

Doritos off your belly, I know they

taste good and there's some immediate

gratification, and I get that. But I'm

going to tell you, it starts right now,

throw that bag of Doritos away. Get rid

of it. Go do some push-ups. Go spend $12

at the hardware store and hang up a

pull-up bar in your room and start doing

pull-ups. And if you can't do one

pull-up, hang on that bar. And you're

going to start to get a little bit