i just got to a point where i thought

it's time to empower myself and you know

what some of this is your fault because

you've said something you'd met someone

yeah you spoke to i can't 51

that

it's been my life

and i accept it like you say acceptance

actually can be a beautiful thing and it

can be a liberating thing to think

i'm not

holding on to something that i can't

change

so first of all the conversation was

well done i didn't know about this

and then overnight the doll turned that

that definitely was

like

do you know what actually i was scared

of taking my kid to nursery that day

because i got death threats

quick one can you do me a favor if

you're listening to this and hit the

subscribe button the follow button

wherever you're listening to this

podcast thank you so much michelle humes

once upon a time she was a member of the

saturdays one of the most famous uk girl

bands that has ever risen from this

country

but since then she's become so much more

she is a mother she is a fearless

entrepreneur and honestly she is one of

the most pleasant wonderful

authentic guests i've ever had on this

podcast

and i can see why after having this

conversation with her she's built this

huge engaged community behind her online

and i think you're going to see that too

she's inspiring she is wise she is

resilient but she's also

just unbelievably real

and today we talk about something she's

never addressed before the moment where

she was nearly cancelled unanswered

questions from her childhood and also

the all-consuming side of starting and

running a business that people just

never talk about

the difficult times the rejection the

struggle with work-life balance

and in her words

how she's just winging it anyway

and i kind of think we are all just

winging it

so without further ado i'm stephen

bartlett and this is the diary of a ceo

i hope nobody's listening but if you are

then please keep this to yourself

[Music]

just me and mama i was reading um about

the start of your life and going through

multiple interviews and that phrase kept

coming up

just me and mum

why was it just you and mum

it was just me and mum because that's

sort of how my childhood looked my mum

and

my dad split officially when i was a

tiny

probably my son's age probably maybe one

just short of one

and then

that was sort of it really so that sort

of

i had contact with my dad for a little

burst of time but it was never anything

solid

and then the contact

stopped all together so yeah that

i suppose i actually it's funny that you

point that out because i didn't realize

how much i say that but it just me and

mum is probably something that

i have said a lot you're right

i am i had a

a relative show up one day when i was

maybe 12 right and they claimed to be my

uncle they just walked into the shop and

they claimed to be my uncle and they

presented evidence which was really

compelling they were my uncle they

strolled in

and um they spoke to my dad and they

said i'm your brother and they looked at

me and said i'm your uncle and it was a

really bizarre point in my life because

although we believed them and they had

evidence to prove that they were there

was no relationship there and i i read

that you went in search of your dad to

just to find out who he was and what was

going on at some point in your life can

you tell me how that interaction was and

what you what you felt yeah i think

my mum did very well uh at

not sort of discrediting my dad over the

years so she would kind of make a lot of

excuse well now i'm an adult and i'm a

parent right i know that she was

obviously

covering his ass constantly and making a

lot of excuses and dressing it up in a

way that i suppose that at the time i

could handle as a as a kid but you're

always going to have that level of

curiosity

in life when i had my own children

i weirdly became less curious

which is weird right

because i had my own kids and i suppose

i've always thought oh yeah he's my dad

and

oh he's not been around i don't really

know him but he's my and i sort of

held hope

but then i had my own children

and i saw what being a dad was from my

husband

and i knew what being even not being a

dad was being a parent was because i was

then

a parent and besotted and in love and

lived live my life for my kids

so i think the respect

was here

but it was in the basement when i had my

own you know because

i my outlook was then like okay now i

really don't understand the way that you

don't want to be a part of your child's

life you know for some people that

changes they have their own kids and

then i'd like them to know their

grandparents or i'd like them and i

thought

my biggest thing in life is to protect

these little ones

i know how flaky you were for me

there's no way that i'd have them sat by

the window saying is granddad coming to

get me because i can protect i've got

control over that

i'm not against it i'd be open

but it's not something that i would seek

now and there was that day that you got

a chance to meet him yeah and what did

you find out that day

about him or why he wasn't present or

well i didn't really i didn't find out

anything

my mom had always told me this story

that sort of went like

bless her and this is what now i'm a

parent i'm like she was so thinking on

the spot but it's something that stuck

with me

she said

some some

daddies aren't very good at looking

after little girls because they would

look after little boy it's easier for

them to look after little boys and she

must have literally been doing the

washing and i've said why don't i just

you know

i like because at that time i i knew

that he had a son

fast forward to have many years later i

realized that you also had two daughters

so that sort of my mum was like

but at that point i was old enough to

like

realize that you know

he it just he had a new set up and i

just didn't slot into that i'm super

naive to the situation because i don't

know what it's like it's important to

say that so everything you talk about or

assume of the situation comes from a

place of like total naivety um

like if i'm if i met my dad and he

wasn't around i would assume i would

just like ask him the [ __ ] question

like where the [ __ ] have you been like

yeah

i know and can i just tell you with

everything else in my life

i am i mean ask anybody that knows me

the most direct person but there's just

this

like

i can't even

articulate it enough like there's this

weird

it's been my life right and i've got to

this point and i still don't know the

answer but i know the person that i want

the answers from isn't the person that's

going to give me the honest answer so i

just don't waste my own time because

time is something that we don't have

enough of so i'm at that place so it's

not that i'm like

i'm not scared to know the truth i'm not

like i'm just not in desperate need for

it because i know that that it's not

gonna be

a real picture of what happened and i'm

too old and i'm too wise to believe

[ __ ] so i think

that's where i am with it

there's something really powerful and

beautiful about acceptance in situations

like yeah

it seems that most of our unhappiness or

frustration comes from the lack of

acceptance not getting to the point

where we need the answer and we need

someone to blame well you need to be

like i'm not gonna be me having a

conversation with my father now at 32

years of age with three kids of my own

with a husband with my own career my own

life

me having a conversation and him saying

to me

oh

it didn't work out with your mum and i

and this i don't know what he would say

this is me thinking of an answer

me having that conversation i'm actually

not going to get anything out of it

that's genuinely how i feel there's not

anything he would be able to say to me

that could change the fact that he

didn't come to watch my nativity play or

he didn't do put in that ground

so really

i don't

need a dad at my age now

because i have my own family set up and

i'm secure

so i'm not seeking that because it's

something i've never had do you forgive

him for his absence

yeah i think i do i don't i'm like that

as a person i don't hold on and i think

if there was something in life that i

would hold on to it'd be something like

this right

because i would have the right to but i

don't and i think had you have asked me

at 18

i'd i would have i would have been like

i will never forget that man for not

being around for me but i just know what

it is

i know what i'm gonna get if i had

contact with him

and i accept it like you say acceptance

actually can be a beautiful thing and it

can be a liberating thing to think

i'm not

holding on to something that i can't

change it's done it's in the past it is

what it is

there's a quote that i read one day on

and it really stuck with me and it kind

of speaks to what you're saying there

which is um um

forgiveness but i guess acceptance as

well is letting a prisoner go and

realizing that you were the prisoner the

whole time so

you were holding on to a weight which

wasn't going to ever serve you but you

you thought it was in service of revenge

or victory i'll win if i hold on to this

grudge or this bitterness but in fact

it's like poison in your own chalice

honestly i couldn't

like i have

friends that they're

they are back to a t

and i think you have literally

you're you are stopping your future and

the rest of your life because you're

holding on to something that

first of all no one even knows what it

is when it's been that long like like

what is this all about and you're but

you're the person that remains unhappy

because you're

you're going through life with a side of

your brain that's focused on the fact

that well no because they've done me

wrong yeah they did you're doing

yourself wrong yeah amen it's like yeah

it's exhausting and that's just not me

as a person like

on to the next and that's just me that's

that's always been my mentality so you

on that day when you you discovered his

his other life his his life as it is you

also discovered um two

is it half sisters is that what it's

called i have no idea i don't even know

what an uncle is these days but yeah

yeah so yeah i suppose technically

they're half yeah we share the same

father but not the same mother yeah um

two sisters and a brother okay yeah

so i you're right i knew i had the

brother i didn't know that he had

daughters but obviously

they were young so they came with him

and we we just

weren't going to see eye to eye he just

wasn't

consistent

and that was just the you know

a continuous pattern

so then it sort of the contact dwindled

again to near or nothing

well nothing

and

then fast forward to

about 11 12 years later

i was at a christmas due at my then

agents

and they had just taken on

one of the guys from love island kemp

who is a lovely lovely guy

and

i obviously you know prosecco's hit

mom's got a night off have her having a

lovely evening

he randomly come up to me i've never met

him before prior to this never met him

i was like nice to meet you and he was

asking me about the management and was

like do you enjoy and i'm like yeah

they're going to be great for you good

luck with everything

and then i could feel that he wanted to

approach me and say something and the

night's gone on

and you know maybe a couple of cocktails

later he comes up to me and he's like

look

okay so this is really weird but i went

to school with your sister

i was like right okay really she never

said thinking the sister that i grew up

with

and he's like no

so on your dad's side

and he said i always said to her because

she was a really good friend if ever i

bump into your sister

i'm going to give her your number

and i lit can i just tell you

i was twisted

i sobered up within a second i was like

sorry what

and he said look can i just message her

now and it all just happened so quickly

he whatsapped her and was like i'm with

your sister a christmas party can i give

give her your number she was like please

the next thing i had

her number saved in my phone

the next day

i

sent her a message

we had arranged to meet later on that

week

with all of them so

so the two sisters the brother

so i was like okay this is great like

and i told my mum and and then it got to

thursday night and i promised you i had

the worst time like i was so nervous

i said marv i don't know if i can do

this i don't know if i can go like this

is

so i made him come with me really

so he came because i was like the three

of them are together they've grown up

with each other they know each other

like i feel really i don't know why i

just felt really vulnerable about the

whole thing

so yeah we went for dinner we it was

like

marv said it was really weird for him to

witness

because he was like i just felt like

it was the norm

and it was weird like i was like my

brother going you look like my eldest

daughter like you know just jeans are

really mad and like she's super tall so

i'm like she must get her height from

you it was just a really weird thing and

marvin was just like in the kind of way

homie was like i was just staring at

them all because you are all

so similar and

it's that weird like nature and nurture

thing isn't it like we are just so

similar mannerisms everything

and then from that day

we like talk every single day

i can't remember a time when i wasn't

in my life isn't that a gift

it really is and that's what i mean when

i speak of not holding on to

resentment not not holding on to because

you know me thinking oh well that's

lovely for them they live the life with

my with my dad and they seem to get the

attention and not holding on to things

that you actually don't know too much

about like

not holding on to those feelings of

anger towards

the fact that he wasn't around for me

because if i'd held on to that i

wouldn't have gone i met them for dinner

and struck up that relationship and i

wouldn't have real key players that are

in my corner now in my life and people

that i adore but that comes of age

as i said the younger me i've read

something on instagram that said i'm so

proud of how the older me and situations

that the younger me just wouldn't have

entertained and that is the key

of just not holding on to stuff that you

think you have to

because actually there is always a light

at the end of that tunnel and

my light is them and the siblings that i

didn't have around me that are now

everything to me you know

i've always contended with that with

um especially growing up with this idea

that i i assumed my family should be and

look perfect yeah and we go through so

much um like self-harm trying to make

our family as we see it in like

the movies

like home like i just need them to be

like this and act like this and so much

despair and misery when they fail to

meet that expectation and i i think

there's not enough people talking about

the fact that like

by the way your family don't get like a

free pass into your life you don't have

to fight forever to make the setup

perfect in fact you end up harming

yourself more than you gain from trying

to achieve that and i definitely noticed

that in my life so with me at some point

when i got a little bit older and maybe

a bit more secure i realized that like

just like everything else in my life

that too has to serve me

you don't get a free pass

like if you're going to be toxic and

you're going to be an [ __ ] to me

goodbye [ __ ] like i don't care

if we have the same you know i mean and

yeah that's not a narrative people talk

about enough so i was really

yeah and i think and i think for me i

definitely grew up

i grew up with the sort of

i don't want to say embarrassment

because i'm not sure if that is the

right word i suppose as a kid maybe it

was but

my family didn't look like everybody

else's so i knew i was very aware like i

knew my grandparents god dress

themselves

um from my dad's side but i grew up in a

white family

felt like i'd constantly have to explain

that my sister

didn't look like my sister but we were

sisters and you know she'd be the last

person in the room that you'd say that

was my sister because we don't look

anything alike

and

you know i was aware that i then had

a side of my family my black side that

i wasn't around and but i would but that

was still a big part of my life that

and i was very aware of how that looked

and i knew that i had siblings

that looked like me but my family was

just a bit of a big messy picture but

like with so much love like i had the

best upbringing my mum did

everything by me to raise me in the

right way and

she did a phenomenal job but i was

really embarrassed of how that looked

like i didn't see

a christmas commercial that had like

my family on on the ad but really

as i'm old as i'm older now and as i

said it does come with age i'm like

it's amazing like i have so many

different elements of my life

but yeah i always want to speak about it

and be open because your family doesn't

have to look like i met marvin and his

mum and dad have been married like 40

odd years

and

you know they they share the same dna

and it's all you know it's all very in

my mind how i would wanted my family to

look but everybody's family comes if

they're different problems their their

road hasn't been plain sailing and i

just think so it's something that i've

always spoken about because

it is what you make it at the end of the

day and i think

like you said if it serves you in the

right way then brilliant but also if

your family is perfect on the outside

and it's not serving you

then

you don't have to hold on to things that

you think you have to because you've got

that

ideal picture in your mind

and even a dysfunctional family can

teach you a lot of important lessons

about life and so really interesting

course it tends to be the case with my

guests that come here it's in fact often

the

the thing that made them different the

thing that made their family slightly

dysfunctional which leads to them having

wild success obviously sometimes or

becoming an anomaly later in life yeah

it seems to tends to be the case that a

little bit of a different start to life

causes a little bit of a different end

to life yeah you know what i mean

um and that's again

needs to be said there's always a

downside as well to that so we have

people here that are incredibly

relentless in their career because of

some insecurity from their childhood so

just understanding that and being

self-aware about that is um important

speaking of

tremendous successes the saturdays

when you look back on that phase of your

life how would you describe it now in

hindsight and now you're 32. oh my gosh

you know you look 22. i look back now

and i think the saturdays existed at the

perfect time in my life

like i was a young girl in

well i think

when i joined the group i was like

obviously it took a while for us to

launch

so i think i was 18 when we formed

and

what young

girl

doesn't want to be

in a girl band well i mean i'm sure

there are girls that don't but for me

it was the most incredible experience

when i look back now i think

we were actually really fortunate when i

see other girl bands and their fallouts

and the way that looked i think goodness

me yes we bickered but we bickered like

sisters we never had a row that was like

we just never had it we didn't we kind

of was all there for the same reason we

loved what we did and we had a respect

for that

so i feel blessed because when i look at

the history of girl bands

it doesn't always play out that way so

we had the best time if there was

something up we'd sort it out and that

was it done and it was only only really

ever a work thing so it'd be like i

don't like that i don't think that's the

right vibe for the video

or i don't think and that's the sort of

disagreement that's sort of where it

stopped

and then we always had this there was

five of us so we had the majority rules

rule

and it was and on that on the on the

time where you were in the two and not

the three

it was so annoying yeah so you'd be like

and it was one of those things because

you know you couldn't do anything about

it because that's we lived our life by

that so it is what it is and even if you

think your point is so valid you're in

the two so go back down

[Music]

um but yeah so i had a ball i was young

for a proportion of it i was single

you know i didn't have chill i just we

we traveled the world we performed

i had a bloody good time doing it so

when i look back i only actually

look back

fondly

so interesting because liam payne sat

here

from one direction before he arrived i

would have said the same what young guy

wouldn't have wanted to be in one

direction but then when he described how

turbulent that experience was and being

a young dude that comes out on stage

there's 150 000 people screaming at him

he then has to go back to his hotel room

straight after the gig and he's

basically locked in the hotel room

because there's tens of thousands of

fans screaming downstairs and doing that

over and over and over again for years

and years and years really took a toll

on him yeah obviously like also not

being able to walk down the street

without people coming up to him and

um and then the band ending and there's

almost that sense of like well what the

hell do i do now yeah

was there not it almost made me think

that there's a bit of a curse of being

in the public eye especially in that

context of a band and yeah and then what

happens after and yeah did they

experience i don't know i just after the

conversation with them i thought yeah so

glad i wasn't in one direction yeah i

think look i think one direction's level

and it was a global phenomenon right

and i've noticed

being married to mark there's a very

different level of hysteria when you're

in a boy band to a girl band like it's

just it's just different it comes with

the nature of this job the hysteria is

wild for boys

which i do think would come with a

different level of pressure i mean

there's pros and cons to both you know

when you're in a girl band it's very

visual and people are obsessed with how

you look and if you're the one that may

have enjoyed your christmas too much and

put on a bit of weight oh people are

gonna tell you or if you're the one that

kind of you know there's there's with

girls it's all very visual and i think

that's what

i think we can all say that we would

have found the toughest at one point

for us

our we didn't burst onto the scene right

so like we weren't like jealous or like

one direction

who went on x factor in its prime

and

gained this overnight momentum and girls

overnight want to wait outside their

house because there's one minute you're

a guy that's just turned up for an

audition and the next minute

you've got this pressure that you don't

know how to handle because no one's

taught you that so for us we did the

like

university gigs we did the

we we didn't have that

burst we really did

it was a

real sort of grind to get our single

played on radio and we

you know so for us it was kind of

every little bit of success meant so

much because

we would all at the time we'd be like oh

we should've just got an expert and we'd

say things like that because we think it

was so hard for us and we'd see these

groups that appeared overnight and we'd

be like oh my goodness we've been here

for years trying

um you know our dressing rooms would be

toilets because that's sort of that's

the level it was it wasn't it wasn't all

glitz and glamour

but

it worked that way in the end and we

were all on that same page and it was

kind of like you're only as strong as

your weakest member right so we were all

there we were all present we were always

on time and we really wanted it

we enjoyed it because as these things

happened or we got booked for

an amazing performance which was really

hard to get or we you know an appearance

or a jonathan ross chat show we were

like we've only bloody got jonathan ross

because we couldn't get on there the

single before because nobody was

interested however yes there were

massive downsides it's like a whole

merry-go-round and that's a downside

you're on a hamster wheel i think the

downsize is not

having control over your own life and

i'm a control freak i don't know if

you'll gauge that already

um

i like to know what i'm doing i'm like

that's me as a person

so there's time you know there would be

times and when

you'd feel responsible and because that

was always our sort of mantra like we're

in this together like one of us drops

off we let the other one down

if you weren't up to it the pressure

that you'd put on yourself to be up to

it for everybody else like i

had a layer and i came back to work

three and a half weeks later and

performed on national television like

with spanx up to my neck to try and hold

in the belly and like

this is gross for you but boobs leaking

because i'm like trying to navigate am i

breastfeeding on my not all because i

didn't want to let the girls down and

and

the fact that the label were like you've

got another single to release and i

think it just got to a point

where we became a bit more adult

and we all just were like

this has been quite a lot

you know and we're ready to sort of

wind down we never actually officially

broke up

there's probably someone in the record

label somewhere that probably would

still say that we owe them a single

we didn't officially break up because

there wasn't a need to because we love

each other and it's look we don't talk

every day because we spent so long of

our life together but i see one of them

tomorrow and it's like

we haven't not seen each other i think

we just got to a point where we were

like

we've you know we've grafted we've done

this now we're ready to sort of

just like there's things that when

you're in a group that you don't even

think about right because you're

in control of yourself in the same way i

am now but thinking about things like we

would all have to agree on the same day

off

well that's near on impossible because

you want to go

to see your friend in

i don't know whatever he's doing that

day and you and i want to do this and

i've actually got this

so it was those little things that

became

hard for me like i want to be off

because mars got down for work so can we

have friday well no actually because i

want and it naturally

it's going to just become a little bit

like okay let's pause on this for now

and we can all

go in our own lanes and that's sort of

how it ended and how it still is

as those priorities shift i guess and

you start to you know then i had a baby

yeah exactly i'm like you know and

that's

that became

everything

and

owner had already had a little one too

before i had a layer but it just yeah

there's a there's a switch isn't there

and you start to go okay we've done this

now for us so when's the reunion quite

some time

you know what i just can't imagine doing

it i'll be totally honest with you and

i'm always honest i just can't

and i've been there to see marvin on

side of stage doing the whole groupie

wife thing but i thought

i just

just feels like a lovely chapter that

ended for me and it was so lovely and i

will always speak of it fondly but

it just feels like a period in my life

that's done when you think about doing

it when you think about getting that

email and they say we're going to do a

tour reunion what what are the emotions

that come to mind

as in the sense yeah it just would feel

like

i just i've look i've got three kids and

there's so many things that i turned

down because it wouldn't work for my

life

and that falls into that

category like

my life's changed i have a business

there's no way i could be on tour

imagine the girls in the office would be

like oh she's at the o2 tonight like

we've got stuff to do you know i think

it's just it just wouldn't well i don't

think i'd remember the dance routines

the thought of doing it's all of the

like the actual

i love it and i feel like a bit of a

cool mum that i had that time

but it's not me now it's just not and i

think it's okay

do your kids realize that you're

in a

really well-known girl band elia does

but she doesn't care it's really sad

like i was i was showing her these

videos she cares to watch the videos and

that's quite nice

but i was telling her i was like you

know because she loves little mix oh my

god she is like the biggest little mix

fan you should tell her they copied me

and i was like literally i was saying to

her because when the little mixed girls

were on x factor we were on tour and

they come to one of our tour rehearsals

and

like asked for our advice so i was i was

saying this to a lady and i was like

what do you know actually

when i was telling this whole story they

they come to and i tried to find it and

there was a clip on youtube of them

coming to meet us and watching our

rehearsal it was like it's ancient this

clip

she was like

but why would they ask you for advice

go to your room be crafty

so in her mind because she she

understands i did it but she i don't

think she realizes but it's funny

because because she loves little mix i'm

like god she would probably love it if i

did that again you know like she would

probably love that

but

yeah i'm just not

there in my life anymore

and that isn't

there's no

that's not bad mind as me and my friends

would say it's just not

yeah not for me now

i've had so many people tag me on

instagram even on telegram and in my

twitter dms

in a picture of them starting their heel

journey and it's one of the most

amazing things in my life that i get to

do a podcast which of course needs money

to to fuel and i have a sponsor like you

who i genuinely believe is going to help

every single person

who starts their heel journey change

their life because this podcast the

central intention of this podcast is to

help people live better lives and we get

to sit here and i get to promote to you

a product which has not only helped me

change my life but it's going to help

millions of people and is helping

millions of people live a nutritionally

complete life it's so it's such an

incredible product and for me the reason

why it's incredible is because it gives

me my protein it gives me my vitamins

minerals it's plant-based it's low in

sugar gluten-free it does all of that in

a small drink that tastes good there are

other products there's foods there's the

hot and savory collection many other

things but for me

this ready to drink is the absolute

saviour of my diet throughout the week

where i'm moving at such pace

look i don't want to labor the point but

if you haven't tried you'll give it a

try and if you do

tag me instagram wherever you try it

give me a tag anyway

back to the podcast

you talked about starting a business

then you've got a business you run now

my little coco

tell me about that why why did you want

to start that business and obviously you

know being a mother of three wonderful

children starting a business especially

starting a business at the start of the

pandemic is a

uh really great time right yeah

phenomenal timing to take on tremendous

responsibility yeah so

obviously i'd started the business

before it didn't launch until a few

weeks before the pandemic hit

um

but there was an emotion right we

couldn't stop then

so i was pregnant

with a layer

and

going through that real phase of like

thinking i'm an earth mum

and being really precious about what i

use or my kid you know they are the most

precious thing

ever in your life like that just

and

i was really fussy about what i used

and i would shop really premium so i'd

be like going into like liberty beauty

hall and finding out you know and i'd be

really into it there wasn't anything

that existed on the high street that i

felt happy with you know a lot of them

have like outrageous chemicals in and

things that you

are like oh that's quite harsh for baby

skin so for me it was bridging that gap

of

products that you could use for the

whole family

that were gentle that had everything

that i wanted as you know my values

and

so the journey began and i didn't want

this to be

a flash in the pan thing i didn't want

this to be baby by rochelle humes this

wasn't about me right this was about me

building a brand

from the ground up

rolling with the punches which we

certainly have done and yeah bigger

picture you know

almost creating a space

i knew what i wanted to do but almost

creating a space for myself that like

i'm always going to be needed right

because it's mine and no one can make

the decisions that i can make because

this is my baby so why was that

important well i think i suppose there's

a little bit of the nature in what i do

that

yes i host television but

any day someone

more relevant or more current could come

along because that's the way the time is

there could be somebody new that now

fills the gap that i

you know had created or left open so i

think

for me it's always

being that one step ahead and being in

control being in control you're getting

this thing yeah um marvin told me

[Laughter]

um

it hasn't been easy though goodness to

me

so

i knew exactly what i wanted so

developed pro we started off with a

range of seven products um

that would develop which takes a long

time and please believe it's like

particularly when it's children involved

so the testing for any product the

process is quite

stringent and it's it's a full-on thing

but add newborn into it

we're dealing with a whole new level of

testing which rightly so

um

so it took a while it took three years

in you know for

before the pandemic hit and it was in

store it was three years work prior to

that

and i'm never happy with something on

the first round it's notorious it's not

happened yet it won't happen there'll

always be something that i want to

change

so that obviously took quite a long time

and then it was me

i suppose deciding from a sensible

business perspective if i want to

take the risk and go on my own

e-commerce first of all or do i want to

partner with a retailer

most people eventually want to partner

with a retailer right it's getting in

there and it's you know

and that's where i was lucky you know

the business has been me and it's been

my graft aside from rochelle humes but

that's where i do feel lucky that i

could use my profile to have a meeting

with certain retailers and

be in that room and you know

use that to my advantage which i did do

however it can go against me too so it's

not always

yeah okay you've got that because you

have had the profile that has helped

with that it actually can

can go against you because you know what

do you know you're a celebrity coming

into this world and what is this going

to be another celebrity range people say

that to you or was that kind of implied

yeah i mean they said it without saying

it as bluntly as i did yeah it was it

was yeah definitely implied

so then so i was going for a whole thing

and there was

i'd had this moment where

one of my products um was a cult well it

is a curl custard

and

that was key to the range like that's

happening

and

there were quite a few retailers that

didn't feel the need

they liked the range

i think they like the range and they

like the association with me and what

that might bring to

their store

but

the values and everything else that

comes with the brand that i've created

they wasn't so interested in

so the fact that i'm trying to make it

diverse

the fact that

you know that i want people to walk on

their high street and be able to get a

hair product for

afro hair

that that's a must the fact that you

know

the level of moisturizing is different

when you're of a black background

you know and that that appreciating

those things and i think

i mean what's really interesting is i

think if i'd have pitched this idea now

post blm movement

i think they would have bit my hand off

yeah yeah which is wild right

but when i did pitch it it was like now

there's not really i don't think there's

a need and i'm like there's no need for

a product for people with curly or afro

hair

sorry

what

so i

there was a bit of a struggle

and then i

had this meeting

with boots i actually felt like i was on

dragon's den really yeah felt like i was

on the telly

um

i actually was i was really nervous i

felt like i was really just

pitching

something that i knew that was great and

that i believed in but it was really i

suppose when it's your passion

it fills you with that level of nerves

that are different right

instantly

but it was boots they got it they were

like okay

love it we want to take it all

and we love the curl custard

and that's that okay these are my people

these are my people and it's i mean it's

ironic it's it's just i'm i'm so pleased

that i went with my gut and i was

persistent with that because i felt like

it was gonna go somewhere so i needed to

stand firm on that what else has

surprised you about running your own

business that you uh if someone had told

you before you started you might not

bothered

oh my gosh

it's all-consuming and i think if you're

gonna start a business you have to know

that don't think you're going to turn

your phone off at five because that's

not a thing

it's not a thing

and if you turn your phone off at five

don't expect a successful business

like don't expect to make money for the

first period of time expect to if you

break even that's good

and

you have to be all in

you can't like i i speak to like some of

my sister's friends and they want to we

want to start business

but you know do you

do you actually and i think it's it's

and that's not being patronizing that's

like you're not going to make an

instagram page for it it's going to be a

success overnight and you're going to

post a few pretty pictures it takes

everything

and i think

once you're happy with that

then i think you'll be okay once you

know that

it's really interesting um

because people don't talk about that

enough there's a definitely a culture of

be your own boss start a business as if

it will be you know the minute you make

that decision it's a decision of like

freedom and

your life is just

totally yours and in control but it

tends to be the case in my experience

anyway that starting a business becomes

almost the antithesis the opposite of

control yeah you you are controlled by

your emails and your whatsapps and

crisis and employees and

and i think it's important part of the

reason i started this podcast was to try

and shed a light on that that side of

things that instagram won't like

definitely tell you about and i think

that's because that's the

that is the culture that we live in now

that that

you literally can launch a page and you

can look something overnight it doesn't

mean that it's gonna

work

and i think

yeah i think i just i'm always real with

that sort of stuff because

you have to work hard like you it

people underestimate graft

and i think

particularly that's something that's

really important to me for my children

like

are they gonna have the same level of

hustle that i have and that same work

ethic and i still don't know the answer

to that to be honest with you do i do

that through schooling do i i really

make a fuss about their tests but i also

want to let them know at the same time i

didn't leave school with x y and zed i

did it myself so i think

that's an it's something that i just

look

show up be present

be committed

work your ass off at the thing that you

know that it is that you're good at

and i think i'm not into like i'm not

going to be that mum that lets my kid go

and expect if she can't sing and be

clapping in the wings i adore my

children

and i will love them no matter what and

i would like to hear them sing but i'm

going to be real and i think that's what

we need more of and i think that's what

because i'm everyone's hype girl to the

end i will hype you now i've met you and

i like you i will hype you so hard

but i will always be real with you and i

think that is what it doesn't have to

come up

you know from a place of judgment or a

place of disrespect it's like look

maybe go away and think about that a bit

more and go and i think that's what i

want my kids to have from me they'll

have love and abundance

but if if you're not good at a certain

thing i'm not gonna go do it and lead

them into a room blind i'm gonna say

look this is what you're amazing

actually look at this

and i think

we can love our kids and support them

without

you know

because i think that's doing them wrong

i think we can be real at the same time

a lot of our guests in fact have sat

here in in the last couple of weeks and

said the same thing about the importance

of actually don't focus on the [ __ ]

you're really bad at if you want to go

far in life don't try and turn your d in

physics to a c in physics just focus on

jimmy carter just focus on the a like

double down on the on the competency so

and it's that it's taking that like

focus

put your energy in in what you know

because you know what you're good at you

know what happens you get that you get

the buzz from it you know what sits

right with you you know

where you're aligned to go with that and

work on that because

that's sort of how i live my life

everything that i know that i'm not

people always said oh you should go into

acting

i'm like i can act up to marvel and i

need a couple of things but i'm not an

actor i'm not i know i'm not so i'll

just

why are we gonna do that the same way

when i left the group everyone was like

you're gonna release a solo album i work

well in a band i know my strengths i'm

not you know i'm not beyonce i mean i'd

love to be and i think i am after

tequila but that's a different story

but i know what i'm good at i'm a good

talker

so

you know media and television that's my

route that's something that i'm

passionate about so and everyone for

ages was like i bet she's in the studio

and i bet she doesn't want to tell us

and i bet she's doing a solo album i'm

like i'm bloody well not because guess

what i've i've taken what i need from

this experience

and i got away with it in a band and yes

i you know i can sing

i'm not the best singer in the world i'm

really not and guess what the charts are

full of amazing singers so let me do

something that i know

that i can deliver and i work my ass off

at that

what you're describing there to me

sounds it's really interesting because

you're describing like pursuing the

thing where you have a degree of

competency you're good at it but also

where you have like that internal

intrinsic passion yeah and like both are

so important i actually spoke to a girl

the other day on a zoom mentoring call i

was doing and she'd gotten to a stage in

her life where she just just and this is

where the passion bit's really important

she kind of just followed the the

opportunity so she was good at let's say

maths so she found herself at 35 as

being this accountant

but she actually

never cared about maths she didn't care

about being an accountant she got

dragged by

the the opportunity it's like you saying

okay i'll do the single just because i

can or i'll do my solo career just

because i can i'm not taking that moment

to pause and go actually what is it that

i care about and regardless of the fact

that i can do it do i want to do it yeah

and of money and

is this carrot that sometimes can lead

us to make short-term decisions which

become long-term regret right and i've

definitely done that yeah i've

definitely done that i've definitely

thought

i've done i've done it with brand work

before definitely

i've taken on a brand project

and

known it's not really me but the money

was so bloody good welcome to my world

i will take all the deals

but i've got to the do you know what i

think i've got to that point now well

yes and it does again come with age it

comes with i suppose

more financial stability than i had

before like i left the group and people

were

and i wasn't sure what was going to

happen right because i'd left this group

where my life was planned to a tea for

me

and then i was going it alone and i

thought well that's good money i should

take it i don't know what

and hi i'm michelle humes and this is

sausages i don't know whatever

and

i've definitely done that and i'm not

ashamed to say it and yes with i suppose

more

now financial stability

it's it's easier to be choosy right so

this is now easier for me to say because

at the time it was like well i don't

know when you know

when the next one might be you know the

next deal might come in

and do you know even more so in the last

sort of 18 months

if i and this is with everything it's

now i'm so

it's the no's that are not more

important to me than the yeses

and

look i come from a working class

background where my mom has always been

like make hey where the sun shines like

this is amazing but i've really sort of

flipped the switch on that now

and

said to myself do i feel it

i put myself in this situation this is

actually mentally what i do you're gonna

laugh so

if i get a phone call about something

and something's come in or because i

have my five-year plan of stuff that i

know that i would like to do

and we will work to make that happen but

some you know

we're also reactive so people might call

and say we thought about michelle for

this and this would be great

and i actually pretend

that i'm interviewing

myself

on the sofa on this morning and i have

to promote it no do this because it's

actually mad so if i was interviewing

you about i don't know you

you now

are being the face of this mug right

could you

sit on the safer and i'm not so tell me

everything so why did you want to do

this could you genuinely say it with

your gut

and feel passionate about it and believe

in it and know it works and feel proud

of that association

and there are those checklists that i do

in my mind and the questions that i

would ask someone so tell me about it so

when did this start when did you get the

phone call how exciting is it and if i

don't feel confident in that interview

i'm not doing it and that is my new

thing and for the past sort of year

that's what's been playing out in my

mind

and it's changed the landscape for me

that's such a i love that i think that's

so powerful because what it did for me

then is i was trying to think about the

ways to sell this mug right

i saw your face you weren't selling it

and this is your mug in your house by

the way i'm buying you some christmas

well i think i think you look closely

actually matches the table so there was

it does but you don't believe in it i

can tell no

i said to myself i think i could do it

once but then getting called to and to

build a business or to pursue something

you have to do it over and over and over

again for an indefinite period of time

maybe 10 years i couldn't do it for 10

years the first time we'd be acting we

can all act in the short term if we have

to but acting for a sustained period of

time does all kinds of damage i mean

eventually it's going to become really

hard to get out of bed to do something

i'm not passionate about and it's not

just acting the wants because then it

turns into the whole new world now which

is social media yeah so then which i

treat my social media like my home right

i keep it tidy i keep it nice if someone

wants to come in i'll make sure i've

tidied up the place so my pictures are

good but you know and i you know i try

to

visually i'm you know i'm honest

but i also like it looking nice i'm not

going to post the worst part of my day

and i have respect for people that do

and i say this a lot because i think

there's become a pressure with social

media that we now have to be honest

constantly and i should be displaying my

stretch marks at all times and i should

be saying

my child's just

you know i don't know had a really messy

nappy in front of everybody and they're

bombed on me and i've got to take a

selfie and document that moment i have

respect for you if you can do that but

i'm too busy getting myself out of the

[ __ ] at the time that the last thing i'm

thinking about is a selfie do you know

what i mean so i i really

i fee so i think there's now a pressure

that we all have to take that approach

which is interesting that we should be a

politician we should come comment on

current affairs like look

i have a blue tick for the reason that

you know for the reason that i'm

verified and it's not because i'm a news

anchor and it's not because i know

everything that's going on in the world

and it's not because

you know i'm constantly going to expose

every part of my life and

but i'll be the real me on there but i

just can't if something bad is happening

at home

i might be ready to talk about it in a

week but that's the sort of instant

instagram for me so i think it sounds

like you've had a couple of dms of

people pushing you to talk on things

well i think i think but i think you

yeah you do and i think it's not just

dm's i think people just expect and i'm

also really aware of that i call it the

blue tick responsibility i'm really

aware of the fact that people could

take my information and it it might not

be correct so i don't want to become and

i think there was a lot of that over the

pandemic people reposting stuff before

they knew the right information and then

i've i've then

become part of that scaremongering

culture and i feel

i feel it's my responsibility to report

on stuff that i know everything about

and the stuff that i know everything

about is myself

my brand my right so i think don't

expect

that from people that are

also not in the know yeah yeah i think

it's quite a it's quite a big ask

actually

and obviously there's a lot i'm

passionate about and that might

you know that might muddle into you know

if i know about it and i've got an

opinion on it yeah i'm going to tell you

but i'm not going to talk about

something that i don't know about i

don't think it's fair

let's talk about that then things you're

passionate about um and

sort of topics you've you've spoken on

the black maternity scandal was one of

those topics um

i was i was reading about why you wanted

to do that documentary and the

statistics around um

mortality in the black community at

pregnancy are pretty staggering for me

yeah the thing that i found really

i want to talk to you about particular

was there was a bit of a a conversation

when you decided to do that documentary

around whether you were black enough

let's

it was quite it was quite the

conversation let's just call it how it

is

and i find it we've both got i believe

i'm guessing here a white parent and a

black parent as well correct it's

interesting because growing up in an

all-white school i was blacker than

black yeah i was the blackest thing

anyone had ever seen

i was the nice guy and then when you go

into

adult life and

you also seem to get then rejected by

the black community even though you've

spent your whole life thinking and you

know yeah being the blackest person in

in my circle and i i funnily enough i

was posted on um

an instagram account when i was

announced as a dragon and the debate in

the comments section from this kind of

like black instagram account was all

around whether i was black enough

and it was black people saying well

that's enough for what for what i don't

know to like be part of that community

like i'm too much of a lighter i don't

even know what that means i'm apparently

i'm too much of a lighting to be

um

to be part of that community and i just

think

i have to say and i just don't give a

[ __ ] because no one could find me i just

think it's pathetic i think personally i

think it's totally [ __ ] pathetic like

black people trying to decide whether

i'm black enough

to to understand like my mother is

nigerian i was born in africa what do i

have to like what do i have to do to be

able to speak to yeah look i i'll be

honest with you i found that really hard

and i actually found that probably the

hardest thing that i've come across in

my

career

i found it really

it's our background on that before we

come to this so as you said so at the

time of filming the show

um there was a campaign started um by

two brilliant women um called five times

more

and black women were five times more

likely to die in and around childbirth

than their white counterparts

and if you what we say black and brown

women but if you were from a mixed

background so i was

four times as likely if you were

if you were of an asian background you

were three times as likely and it

basically if you weren't white

it didn't look good for you in and

around childbirth

so

i got approached by a production company

to go on this sort of

journey into why

and

at the time they asked me i was very

pregnant

and

i just was like it's a little bit too

much i found it a bit overwhelming i was

also scared about working

um during covid and that you know at the

peak of kobe 2.6 we're very much still

living through it

um

because if you were pregnant you were

also at more risk and then obviously if

you're of a black background and

pregnant you're at more risk of getting

covered and also it was so i was just

like look i'm going to be in my house

i will 100

because this was just a pitch at this

time right and you know how this works

you can make a million different

programs but none of them necessarily

make it on telly so i said look if you

think you put my name on this pitch to

channel four is going to get it across

the line put my name on it but i'm in

the new year once i've had the baby in

october

get let me just i will i would i'm here

for it i will do it

so that conversation happened

they said yes we would want to

commission it

we'll wait for you all to do in the new

year so that was that and then

fast forward to

we announced that we were taping it

which was probably we'd already started

but we were announced because i think i

wanted to get a couple more

women that i'd found through my channel

to maybe share their experiences

and so i sort of did a call out on

social media i announced i was filming

it and did a call out to to say this is

what we're filming and it sparked a

conversation it's back to a real

conversation of did you know and a lot

of people were like yes what you know

white midwives had messaged me saying

i've seen this you know i would i'd like

to be a part of it you know there's a

there's lots that needs to be needs to

be done here but first and foremost

people didn't know those stats and i

think that was

for me really important that we we get

that

on a big stage

there's some women that have been doing

some incredible work for years working

tirelessly

um to promote these figures and to

you know

get some sort of acknowledgement that

this happens

so let's give it a big voice right

so first of all the conversation was and

that was the feeling everyone was like

well done i didn't know about this

and then overnight the doll turned

there was a post that was posted on

instagram that was from another woman

who is

an author

um

a presenter that said that she

had been asked

to front the same show

so this conversation has happened and it

was like great and then

she had said i'd been asked to front

this show

which obviously i'd woken up and seen

this post and was mortified she was a

darker skinned black woman

the first thing i did

was dm her

this is my number i don't know what [ __ ]

has gone down here but this is my number

give me a call

to this day i've not heard from her

and then that sort of triggered this

whole conversation of

the fact that i'd taken a a darker

skinned woman's bread and it it

the dial switched overnight and i was

can i tell you i was beside myself

devastated because first of all that

isn't i'm not whether you're white black

i'm not stealing any woman's bread

that's not for me so i kind of wanted to

get to the bottom of this so i called

channel four i caught i was like just

tell me has anybody because i was on the

pitch right so i was like this is

bizarre because we pitched this together

has anybody been asked to host this

apart from me because i'm not cool with

this and this isn't i'd i'll do it with

her we'll do it together but this isn't

the way that i work

and she and she hadn't been asked and

obviously

as i said there's lots of shows that are

being made so i'm not sure if there was

another production that she'd maybe had

word with and maybe started making

something similar that i that i don't

know and it's probably more than likely

so obviously it sparked this debate

around colorism which

is also a great conversation to be

having we don't have that conversation

enough

but it wasn't the debate we were trying

to spark we were talking about maternal

mortality so it sort of snowballed into

this chat and colorism most definitely

exists i'm aware of that i might be

lighter than one woman but i'm

definitely darker than some that's how

my life has been

so

in a way i was like look

this is at my expense

and this conversation that sparked is

incorrect and it isn't

this isn't how it went down

however it sparked a conversation that

i'm not gonna

release a statement and stop it and say

listen it wasn't and i'm not gonna out

another woman for saying the wrong

information because that isn't me so i

let it i let it go because i just

thought do you know what

that's also a conversation worth having

yes to some i definitely have it a lot

easier because

i am lighter skinned

but as i said before i'm also darker

than some so i understand it so i let

that conversation play out for that

reason because the more we talk about

these things the better right

however it was harsh and it was a hard

pill to swallow because in this instance

this isn't it wasn't it

i felt really hurt because

i was

first of all i was being denied of my

black gene

yeah first off

secondly the community that i'm making

this show for and that we were fighting

to get this on tv it was the first

documentary of this kind being made

weren't happy about it until they saw it

and i was like just wait and see it

because it's actually not about me it's

about the brilliant women that have been

brave enough to take part in this dark

so yeah it was a really weird period of

time because i genuinely didn't know how

to handle it because i didn't i then put

the show on the other foot and then i

said okay so if i'd been asked to do

this which i had to do this show put my

name on it to get this commissioned

and i'd said no if you think it's going

to get commission but we really feel

rushed that by putting your profile to

it we'll get it across the line and if

i'd have said no

am i not then doing my bit for the back

am i not then doing what i should be

doing and

so i really imagine it was a yeah

imagine imagine imagining that that

story broke michelle was asked to do

this um documentary about um

the increase in the the staggering

statistics of mortality in black women

at childbirth and she said no

imagine that you would have got the same

this is a lose-lose situation

and that's how it really felt and i

think that was the biggest frustration

and also in all of this

so this big conversation happened

fine okay i get it and i'm not saying

that colorism doesn't exist because it

really [ __ ] does and it's awful and

it's unjust and it isn't right and

there's a lot of work to do

in that space and i think that'll be

something that exists for a very long

time unfortunately

however

that

it wasn't it and it wasn't right to make

this situation about colorism

and yeah i just found it a real struggle

because at the same time and there was a

lady called mars who's just a brilliant

woman she's a doula and she has been

campaigning

for this disparity for a very long time

and she said the thing that you're

forgetting she called me because she saw

it all go down she was like are you all

right are you okay

and i literally burst into tears

she was like you're forgetting

you've you've lost yourself out of these

stats

because being a mixed woman

you are still four times as likely to

die than a white woman you're losing

yourself in this too and your children

and the re

so you are still very much part of those

stats so let's not lose this here you

know these the stats are about black and

brown women

so i had to remember and there was talk

of we had a meeting at my management and

we go we're going to pull out of this

should we just pull out of this because

and i was like no do you know what i'm

not

because it's not actually about me and

they will learn that when this program

airs

because these brilliant women have

trusted me to protect their stories we

were so careful we had we had one

director a black female director and it

was just we didn't have a soundie we

didn't have any a whole crew

we turned up to these women's homes and

we protected we wanted them to feel safe

so it was just her and i

and they could tell their story and we

didn't want to sort of

make them relive their trauma in a way

that wasn't going to be helpful so we it

was we we did it in the best way that we

could um

and what's interesting is

i've had so many different letters since

saying i'm so sorry that we wrote this

article because

actually we watch the show and it's not

what we so it's just funny that when i

talk about that blue tick responsibility

one post can set a whole community

alight

when actually it was incorrect

and

that's where i think we all need to do

better in our position to make sure that

we're always posting the right

information when we do that

social media is is very much a place of

um trying to hold everybody

to a standard of fit like false

perfectionism like as if we're all just

perfect human beings we make perfect

decisions there is correct and there is

wrong on social media there's no nuance

there's no middle ground there's no

appreciation for like

complexity and how okay this is right

but also this is right that that

conversation doesn't happen because

we're the algorithm pushes us into these

tribes where we're either left or right

um

when you're trying to be

true to yourself when you're trying to

um speak on issues that matter it's

almost it's almost impossible in in the

age of social media and what i

really like about what you've described

there is um there was this intense

pressure to like fall in line with

correct with what when i say correctness

i don't mean that it's right i mean like

they're like false correctness this is

you know it's like a mob screaming in

your face rochelle this is correctness

stop do come and join us yeah on the

side of false perfection and come and

and you had the i guess the i wouldn't

even describe it as courage because that

doesn't feel like the right word but you

had the sense to say i'm gonna do this

anyway

um a lot of people don't have that these

days a lot of i find it so incredibly

hard like

i'm someone who's probably at some point

going to get cancelled because i really

when you describe that story to me it

just pisses me off so much yeah but you

have to sit on it i know and i but with

this it was different because of the

reason i was doing it yeah so i was like

look i don't want to say anything

because there's a lot of noise happening

and i've not even said anything yet yeah

and my the old me with what we were

talking about would have just gone

yeah but really i didn't want

if i spoke on it it would be another