Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Thank you for being here.

>> Good to be here.

>> I'm excited [music] to talk to you. Did

you maybe manifest this conversation

somehow?

>> Maybe. [laughter]

Um I've seen a bunch of your talks

online and um the first of all let's

start from the beginning like what what

is your background?

>> Uh I thought I'd give you a 40 45 year

arc.

>> Okay.

>> In about 3 minutes.

>> Perfect.

>> Because then there's a lot of places you

can get into it. So I started out as a

musician violin

uh up until about halfway through

college. And then I realized to be a

musician means you have to be an athlete

because you're making your living with

your body. No one told me that up

through until I finally decided I don't

think I want to make my living with my

body because I've never been very

strong. And more importantly, you also

need to have a lot of stamina and I

didn't have that.

>> And you weren't interested in gaining

it.

>> I I couldn't. I I have a genetic

mutation that that creates it uh like

most people when they exercise you feel

really good afterwards. I feel really

exhausted and I never understood why

until many years later I realized that I

have something called Jill Bear syndrome

which is a mutation of a liver enzyme

and you have no recovery time.

>> Whoa.

>> Yeah. So,

>> is there anything they can do for that

>> other than something like genetic

engineering, which I've never heard

anybody try yet? The answer is no.

>> I've never heard of that condition

before, I don't think.

>> Yeah, it's uh there's some missing

enzymes and more importantly the Billy

Rubin, which is unconjugated Billy

Rubin, you have way too much of it. So,

there's an upside and a downside. The

downside is that there you you can't

recover from exercise quickly, and so

there's a lot of fatigue

>> that happens. The upside is that

unconjugated Billy Rubin is an

antioxidant. It's one of the most

natural antioxidant. So, my

cardiovascular system is like a

20-year-old.

>> Oh. So, you got your pros and your cons

with this.

>> Yeah.

>> Have you ever tried exercising in very

small doses, like throughout the day?

>> Well, I I walk every day, so that's

that's my primary exercise.

>> That's always great exercise. If I walk

too fast, too hard, I will feel it for

the next three or four days.

>> Wow. Um, so too fast, too hard, too

long.

>> Yeah.

>> So, what if you do like two push-ups and

then just do two push-ups like four

hours later and then two push-ups like

four hours later?

>> I can do that. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> I can do seven push-ups.

>> Yeah, maybe that's the move. Maybe the

move is just make yourself do things

very lightly throughout the day just to

keep your bone mass and all that Yeah.

>> good stuff that we lose when we get

older.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, but it sounds like there's a

pro the cardiovascular benefits. Pretty

sweet.

>> Yeah. So, when you get to a certain age,

your your doctor says, "Let's take a uh

cardiac calcium scan to see what what

are your arteries doing." And the the

range is from zero, so they don't see

anything in there, up to 100 where

you're basically about to die. So I my

doctor did said, "Does do that because

your cholesterol is like off it. It's

way too high." And I have zero.

>> Oh wow.

>> And say, "Well, how how could you have

zero?" Because I'm 74. I should not be

zero, but I do. And it's because of

this.

>> You look really good for 74.

>> Thank you.

>> You do. you you look like maybe 15 20

years younger than you're supposed to

look.

>> Yeah. So that's the other advantage of

this particular mutation is longevity.

>> Damn, son.

>> Well, that's good. There's a positive to

it.

>> So violinists Oh, can I ask you this?

Totally unrelated. What is the

difference between a violin and a

fiddle?

>> Well, a violin is a career track towards

concert violinist. So classical music.

>> So it's how you play it. It's partially

how you play it, but it's mostly about

the nature of the music that you're

playing.

>> So, is it just how it's referred in

different cultures? Like in southern

music, it would be a fiddle.

>> It's also style.

>> It's style and it's also the the

intonation. Like if you're if you're did

like I did, I transitioned from

classical violin when I knew I wasn't

going to do that as a career into

bluegrass fiddle and banjo.

>> Oh. So I actually ended up playing 25

years, the last five years being

bluegrass. And so there I actually had

to learn not to play that well. Like you

have you it sounds better for bluegrass

if you're a little bit off tune and

you're not you're not holding it right

and it's

>> authentic.

>> Yes.

>> Scratchy something to it.

>> So in fact in graduate school I uh I was

in the competition for the Illinois

State Fiddler Contest. And so I was

probably 25 or something at the time.

Uh, and Allison Krauss was like a like a

teenager and she was in the same

competition and I lost miserably and she

was incredible even at that time.

>> Who is she?

>> Allison Krauss.

>> I don't know who she is.

>> Sorry.

>> She she is a

>> Do you know who she is, Jamie?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. She's a very very well-known uh

somewhere between country singer, but

she plays the violin and the fiddle and

is a fantastic voice.

>> I'm out of the loop. I'm sorry.

>> Yeah. If you heard if you heard one of

her songs, I'm sure you would know it.

>> Yeah. If you made me name a fiddler, I

would say,

well,

the devil went down to Georgia was the

first time like America really

understood like popular culture like the

fiddle got introduced. Is that fair to

say?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Like that for a lot of people that song,

that Charlie Daniels Jr. song, right?

That's that's the fiddle.

>> Yeah. That's like

>> Is that good?

>> Well, yeah, it's pretty good. It's a

little bit like fiddle on steroids, but

Yeah.

>> But I mean, like as a fiddler, do you

hear that or is it like only for the

unwashed masses to think that's good?

>> Oh, no. [clears throat] That it's good.

Good fiddling. Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's fiddling around.

>> It's a beautiful instrument. Sorry for

the sidetrack. So, um

>> Okay. So I I did that for for 20 years

or so and then in the middle of college

I decided I think I want to get a job

where I could use my mind instead of my

body. So I switched into electrical

engineering. Uh why? Because I like to

take stuff apart and I I used to make

things in high school. Uh so then I

didn't know what I wanted to do after I

got my degree. So I went on to get a

master's in electrical engineering and

then I didn't want to be an electrical

engineer anymore. So, I got a PhD in

experimental psychology.

And so, it it sounds like like flipping

back and forth between lots of different

things. And it kind of is, but you'll

see that my career is a little bit like

a game show and that uh you're presented

with this is what you could do like

forever. Or you can choose door number

two. And I almost always chose door

number two because like I I would do

this for a while and say I sort of

understand that now I want to do

something different. Door number two. So

in the as a senior in college uh I

learned about this place called the

Institute of Noetic Sciences which was

started by Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar

Mitchell who was the six man on the moon

and on the way back to the earth he had

a mystical experience and so today a lot

of people who go into space talk about

the overview effect and he was one of

the first to talk about it openly even

though all of the other astronauts had

it. It expresses itself in different

ways. So people generally will turn from

whatever they were, it's a

transformative experience and they

become different. And so in his way of

expressing that after the mystical

experience and thinking what in the

world is that because he felt one with

the universe literally

he decided to create this institute that

would study what he had been studying

for outer space but for inner space to

to explore inner space. So I remember in

college reading about this new institute

and their motto was uh the exploring the

frontiers of consciousness and I thought

that sounds like something I want to do

but there wasn't any place to do that

other than this one institute. So I

always had in the back of my mind that

that's that's where I want to end up.

>> Is that term noetic? I know I've heard

it before but I I never looked it up.

>> Noetic. So knowetic is

uh a feeling of intuition except that it

carries a sense of certainty that the

intuition is correct.

>> So intuition is knowing something

without knowing how you know it. It just

sort of arrives but it's knowing with

with certainty and more often than not

the certainty is correct. So people talk

about downloads in meditation and other

places that's what that is. This is a

subject that

up until I would say last couple decades

was pretty openly dismissed by rational

people. Right? There's there's almost

like um a desire to dismiss it like a

desire to define the world in much

clearer terms where you it's maybe

ego-driven. You're in control of your

own destiny and then there's certain

factors that are out of your control and

just this is how it is and this is life.

deal with it. And all this mystical woo

woo magic that people have been

talking about for some strange reason

for thousands of years that we just

dismiss and we dismiss it um under the

narrative of science. We're talking

about science. We're science people. We

want data. But there is data. That's

what's weird. And if you're willing to

look a little preposterous, which I

certainly am, uh I think it's a good

thing to do every now and then.

take a chance and try to figure

out if the world is exactly constructed

the way you've been told because it

might not be. There might be some

weirdness to it all. And it seems like

we all agree. We all agree there is some

weirdness. You could chalk it off to

coincidence when you think about a

person and you haven't thought about

them forever and all a sudden they call

you. There's there's some weirdness in

the world.

There's some weirdness in the world like

knowing not to do something and then

something happens.

And there's some weirdness in knowing

something's going to happen and you

ignore that feeling and then something

terrible happens. You're like, "Fuck, I

knew I shouldn't have gone there."

There's there's weirdness in the world.

And it's not necessarily just pattern

recognition and un understanding

scenarios because you've experienced

them before. There's something to that,

too. That's part of it, too. But there's

also something else. There's some weird

connection that people have. There's a

thing that when you know someone's mad

at you and they don't say anything,

you're like, "What is this weird

energy I'm getting off this guy?"

There's some stuff we're we're

experiencing in the world that you can't

put on a scale. You can't put a tape

measure to it. You know, you can't you

can't measure its density, but it's

there. There's something. And we have a

very limited amount of senses in terms

of our ability to see, feel, touch,

smell. It's not enough. there probably

some other stuff out there we don't have

the tools to measure but it impacts us

>> but we do have the tools to measure. So

that's what attracted me to the rest of

my career because exactly for the same

reason you just said that people have

experiences oftenimes they feel pretty

strange and so they start looking for

well what what is that? So if you go to

a uh like a conventional science

spokesperson, they will echo back

exactly what you were saying. It's

coincidence. It's a it's frailty of

memory, all of that stuff.

>> But I learned early on, even in college,

that there is a branch of science that

has studied these things. I mean, it's

been going on since the late 1800s, that

there scientists have been interested in

these kinds of phenomena. And science is

really really good at taking even

strange subjective experiences and

figuring out is that a coincidence or is

that what what is that? Is it real? That

attracted me. So and it it partially

came out of reading a lot of science

fiction. So your science fiction is

saturated with these kinds of stories

where the the element of the story is

revolving around some kind of psychic or

noetic thing.

>> The force.

>> Yeah.

the force uh in in Dune, the series

Frank Herbert's Dune series, the whole

thing about spice. Why did they have to

take spice? Because that's the only way

you can navigate when you're you're

jumping through wormholes. Like you

needed to know what you're about to

expect in the other side. It just

saturates novels and science fiction.

It's there. And generally if if you have

a topic that people are paying attention

to like that and are very popular, it's

because something is resonating like if

if if it was so strange that nobody even

had a way of thinking about it, it it

wouldn't be popular. But it is and it's

perennially popular. So So I took the

science fiction interest and as even a

younger kid about fairy tales, which is

saturated with these things, too, and I

thought, well, that I wonder if that's

real. But then you kind of get shuttled

into a scientific career. And one thing

that happens for fledgling engineers and

scientists and for a lot of other

academics is that you're being taught a

set of assumptions about the way that

the world works called materialism or

physicalism. And the thing is you're not

taught that that is a set of

assumptions. You take it for granted

after a while because after you go

through college for 20 plus years and no

one ever mentions that we're working

under a set of assumptions materialism

and no one ever talks about the

philosophy of science which is all about

studying the assumptions and are they

correct.

Once you do start studying the

philosophy of science you find out that

there's lots of different ways of

understanding reality. And so there's

the whole materialistic side which is

really really good at explaining aspects

of the physical world. It it gives us

these kinds of technologies,

but it doesn't explain subjective

experience at all. And so that's that's

like a existing number one mystery in

science today because you have to

challenge the idea that materialism is

all there is. And so people have weird

experiences. They're talking about a

more comprehensive way of understanding

reality. That's what's going on. And so

that's that's why I end up writing a

book like this. So the magic here is not

stage magic. It's it's the real magic

which we don't have a name for yet.

>> When they first started studying this in

the 1800s, what were they specifically

trying to isolate or figure out?

>> Well, just like today, people would see

apparitions. They would have the sense

that there were telepathic connections

between people. uh they'd have

precognitions. And there was the

beginning of figuring out ways of using

experimental science to be able to study

these things under controlled

conditions. And and the word control is

important because it means you exclude

coincidence by the design and you

exclude leakage of information. You

exclude all kinds of things. So the only

thing left over is if that telepathic

thing was real, then we'd be able to see

it in the lab. And the short story is

yeah, so we're now 150 years past that

and we have very very strong evidence

that telepathy does exist.

>> So what was the first evidence that they

they were able to get out of these

initial experiments?

>> They used to call it thought

transference. And so the methods they

were using then would not pass muster

today. They they would have like two

kids who said we we can we can do

telepathic transfer between us. And then

many times it would find that the kids

were using some kind of signal. And so

that that wouldn't work today. Today

people have to be strictly isolated. Uh

neither can know what the target is that

they're trying to transfer to the other

person. And we do lots and lots of

replications with lots of people. And so

that that then forms a body of evidence

where it becomes extremely difficult to

think of what the flaw might be. And in

fact, if you ask skeptics about it who

know the literature, their usual

response now is either uh there's no

plausible flaw that they can identify

because a lot of time has been spent to

figure out what might be a flaw.

>> And the second response, which is more

recent now, is we're not even going to

look at the evidence because we know

it's impossible, which is no longer a

scientific argument, but that's that's

the approach. We're not going to look at

the data.

>> That's silly.

>> Yeah. Well, it's really silly when you

consider the intelligence agencies have

spent an enormous amount of money and a

considerable amount of time studying

remote viewing. Like why why would they

invest that much time in nonsense? Why

would they invest that much time in

something where there's no evidence

whatsoever and they've never achieved

positive results? That doesn't seem to

be correct.

>> No. If you just if you listen to the

stories of the guys like Hal put off and

all these different people that have

been involved in these remote viewing

experiments, they had actionable data

that they they they derived specifically

from remote viewing. I don't understand

it. I can't I've never done it. I've

never attempted it. I don't know if I

can do it. I did it once. Uh we we had

an experiment on a television show that

I did where we had this guy who claimed

to be a remote viewer remote view this

area and it was he was off but it was

also under duress with cameras. Like is

that the state of mind that you want to

be in when you're trying to remote view?

No, that's not ideal at all. And that is

a factor a major factor in whether or

not you can understand intuition is

where where what is your state of mind.

Are you in a place of complete anxiety

and fear? Or are you totally relaxed and

focused on what you're doing? Is there

any distractions? Is there a jackhammer

nearby? Is there a dog barking? What is

there something that could interrupt

this state of mind that you're trying to

achieve? Because there's different

states of mind. We know this. We can

measure this. We can measure the brain

waves. We can we can we understand that

the state of mind, it's not a static

thing like a toaster, you know? It's not

on or off. There's a bunch of different

going on in your brain, in your

mind at any given time. And so the idea

that remote viewing, which is some very

bizarre connection that some people have

to reality that's nowhere near local,

they can describe things in detail, talk

about submarines that are being

constructed in the Soviet Union. Like

it's there's weird to that. And if

you dis if you just dismiss that, you're

being a fool. there's something there.

And the only way anybody figures out if

there's something there is if you study

it. If actually intelligent people are

willing to look a little foolish and

spend some time studying it. This

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>> Right. So that brings us to my next job.

So after I got my my doctorate, I

started working at Bell Laboratories.

>> So it was the biggest laboratory in the

world at the time. It was still a Bell

system. And because I was interested in

these kinds of things, for some of my

time at Bell Labs, I started doing

little psychic experiments involving

mind matter interaction and also

involving precognition.

So there there's a an ongoing link here

that goes back to the Institute of

Duetic Sciences in a strange way. Edgar

Mitchell was gave the first money to

SRRI International which is where

Halputo off and Russ Tar was to do

remote viewing studies. He also brought

Yuri Geller to the United States and

they brought SRI and a bunch of other

places including Bell Labs. So when I

was working at the labs I knew that

there had been people who had seen some

of the stuff that Geller did and I was

doing these little psychic things. So I

asked for permission to be able to

present some of the work I was doing at

a annual conference of the

parasychological association which is an

affiliate of the largest scientific

organization in the United States the

American association for the advancement

of science. So many people don't know

that the parasychological association is

one of the 200ome affiliates of the

tripleas. It's a legitimate scientific

organization. So I did this precognition

test. I asked for permission and I got

permission not only to give my

presentation at the conference but to

use the Bell Labs impremature. So I was

giving this as some guy from Bell Labs

talking to this audience.

Unbeknownst to me there were a few

people in the audience who came up

afterwards and one of them said uh if

there was an opening would be you be

interested in joining the Stargate

program.

>> Whoa.

>> And so that was an offer I couldn't

refuse. That's one of these cases of you

have this door or you have that door.

Well, that door looked really

interesting because it was known at the

time that there were people at SRRI

doing this sort of thing, but the

classified portions were a rumor. Like

nobody knew what was really going on,

>> right?

>> So, I took a leave of absence.

>> That must have been exciting.

>> Yeah.

>> You get that offer. Yeah. Stargate.

>> Yeah. Are you kidding?

>> Holy

>> So, I took a leave of absence for one

year from Bell Labs. And so I went to

SRI International.

Hal Putoff was my boss. And then uh Ed

May when Hal left in 1985, Ed May took

over. He's it may not be a name that is

known as well, but he was the director

for 10 years. Uh and so I worked on that

project and it took a long time to get

the clearances because first of all, I

didn't know anything about

classification or anything. But I

figured, well, maybe it's just secret.

No, it's just top secret. No, it's top

secret SEI. No, it's top secret SEI

special access program, which means

there's literally a book that you have

to sign and you can see all the other

people who have signed that book,

special access means even if you have a

top secret clearance, you cannot know

about this place. You cannot know about

the code word. You can't the code word

was classified. So I mean which seems

kind of odd because if you have a code

word it's not saying anything but

nevertheless that's how it worked.

>> Wow.

>> So we were the research side of people

who talk about Stargate. Mostly they're

talking about the military side, the

operational side. Well, we knew what

they were doing but our mission was

different. Our mission was figure out

those questions that you're asking. How

does this stuff work? Like is it real?

Yes. Some people are very talented. uh

what are the limits of it? Can you block

it? Can you shield it? Can you do

camouflage? And one of the main areas

was what's the difference between

someone like Joe McMonicle who's a

superstar in this area. Why is he any

different than anybody else? Because

like when I first met the Ingo Swan and

Joe and a bunch of other people, they

were the kind they were so different

than my stereotype of Madame Zodiac that

that they like I say, you got to be

kidding. these people are remote

viewers. They're just like guys and

gals.

And so every method was used to try to

figure out is it psychological

difference? Is it physiological? Is it

medical? What what is it? And the answer

was we couldn't find anything. Now there

may be some background about the people

themselves. But in terms of finding out

something that we could use to select

because the the army and others were

interested in getting lots of other

people who would be talented too.

>> So was there was no consistent factors?

>> No, there wasn't wasn't anything.

>> Wow.

>> So

>> that seems crazy

>> except maybe talent. Two things talent

and openness. So talent is natural

talent. It's it did partially based on

genetics. And openness is a

psychological trait where you're simply

open to experience. So people who tend

to be to to have like a certain way of

thinking about things and not not open

to other stuff, they block it. They

could block it real good. People who are

open to experience and willing to try

new things, they in general tend to do

better. So that brings us to talent,

which I'll get to a little bit later,

especially about the genetics of talent.

So we didn't have the genetic tools at

the time. Now we do have the genetic

tools. And so we've done a couple of

studies looking for what we call the

syene. [clears throat] So we've we think

we're on to something. Okay. So so I

work on Stargate for a year. Uh the go

back to Bell Labs and almost immediately

get another invitation. It's one of

these doors open again. How would you

like to go to Princeton? Because at

Princeton at the time was the Princeton

engineering anomalies research

laboratory. It was the a lab doing cyber

research that was headed by the dean of

the school of engineering. And so that

lab went almost for 30 years doing mind

matter interaction doing remote viewing

and a bunch of other stuff at Princeton.

So my position was in the psych

department because that's where I had my

PhD, but to lead a program among many

departments, one of which was the pair

lab. And the idea was uh in order to

have any chance of beginning to

understand this stuff, you need to pull

in every discipline because it's way too

big. It's it's too complicated for a

single discipline. So we had the

philosophy department and the psychology

department and civil engineering and the

pair lab and a bunch of other

departments. My job is to sort of corral

it together to create multiddisciplinary

research projects and I was told in day

one that's impossible. You this is a job

you cannot do. Well why? I mean we had

the money for it and the answer is that

in the academic world you succeed within

silos. you know an enormous amount about

a very particular kind of topic. Like

even in the psych department there you

have cognitive psychologists, perceptual

psychologists, social psychologists and

on and on and on. They don't even talk

to each other because it's outside of

your discipline, outside the little

silo. My job was to sort of mash it

together and it was ridiculously

complicated.

>> Was there resistance?

>> Oh my god, resistance is not quite

strong enough. [laughter]

It's like uh each one of the departments

was getting money from this big grant

that we had. So they were willing to

play the game, but when it actually came

down to doing some kind of a cross

filtering

no

>> why didn't they want to collaborate?

>> Because everything of value in the

academic world is in your silo.

>> And so if you're trying to work across

silos, again, even within the same

department,

>> social psychology and perceptual

psychology might not even talk to each

other. and they their offices are right

next to each other. But that's simply

the way

>> insane.

>> Yeah. But it also it sort of makes sense

when you think about it to become an

expert in something takes 20 years from

from the university and then the rest of

your academic career just to keep up

with it. So it kind of makes sense that

you don't want to start turning your

attention off to something else because

you're not in that department anymore.

So it it's a problem and it's always

been there. It's not getting any better

either. Well, it seems like there should

be a way to fix that. The ultimate goal

should be whatever we're all working on

collectively should benefit mankind. And

if you're in the psychology industry,

which you are, if you're teaching

psychology, if you're working on

psychology, you should want to get

involved in this. The fact that they're

all siloed off like that seems insane.

>> Yeah. So the the approach that's

sometimes taken in the academic world is

to create a center center for the study

of fill-in- thelank that brings in

people from different disciplines and

then they're kind of forced together

>> but these people from dis different

disciplines probably are already working

on important stuff to them and this is

taking away from their time.

>> It it could be except that uh depending

on the nature of the work it may be

something that requires another

discipline. So you might have somebody

in computer science who's working on

that. And then you have somebody in

psychology who's interested in the human

side. Like how do you connect the

computer and the people

>> well there's a subdiscipline called

human factors. That's where I was

working in Bell Labs because I had

engineering and psychology. So you kind

of mash those two together and then you

could actually learn some new stuff

that's of value to both. And also you

that's how you create new disciplines.

That's how the discipline of

neuroscience began. So you go back now

it's more like 60 to 70 years ago.

Somebody noticed that you have all these

people in biology and all these people

looking at cells and people looking at

things having to do with with the

nervous system that were all different

disciplines. So a a large foundation

came along and said I think we need to

create a discipline of the

neurosciences.

and they threw enough money at it to

bring people together and that formed a

new discipline. So I work in the area of

consciousness studies which is only now

starting to become its own discipline.

>> Because before that it was maybe a few

philosophers interested in it and

anesthesiologists and that's it but it's

changing.

>> So when you were at Princeton what what

specifically did how did you start it?

Like what what specifically were you

working on initially?

Well, besides trying to get people to

talk to each other, which was

frustrating, a

>> big task.

>> Yeah. So, one of the things I did was

metaanalysis. So, this is a way of

taking results of individual experiments

that are similar to each other like

telepathy experiments and putting them

all together with a statistical method

to see whether independent people are

able to replicate the same thing. It's

called metaanalysis. Meta meaning it's

like an analysis of analyses. And so it

answers two questions. One is if this is

really real in a scientific sense, then

other independent people ought to be

able to do the same experiment and get

the same result. So that's one part. The

other part is if you do have a lot of

people doing the same experiment, then

what is the overall result? It's like

one gigantic experiment now. So I I did

a number of metaanalyses,

ended up writing a book on it that

nobody wanted to buy. So it just sat

there. uh and then I was doing

experiments on precognition as as part

of my job and because of my engineering

background I was using the ver the

latest version of machine learning at

the time which was neural networks and

applying it to the data from the pair

lab to see if uh you know when you do an

experiment involving mind matter

interaction usually use a random number

generator and you ask somebody this

thing is you tell them this is going to

push out a whole bunch of bits random

bits and I want you to make more one

bits than zero bits. That's your task.

So they press a button and they get some

kind of result. And now make more zero

bits and now don't do anything. So this

is a uh three different kinds of tasks

in one session. And so what what they

were finding was that in general if you

run a lot of people and this kind of

task, yes, their intention makes the

bits go in the direction that you want.

So you aim high, it goes up, aim low, it

goes down, so on. So the question then

is not everybody can do that. Some

people get the opposite result. So some

people get really good on making it go

high but they can't make it go low. So

the idea came about that there's s

something like a signature

that was from each person. People had a

way of interacting with the machine that

made it do certain things that was

unique to them but overall it worked

out. So I started using neural networks

to see if I could train a neural network

to tell who was doing the task based on

how the random bits were working. And it

turns out you can. So when I left

Princeton because it was getting way too

frustrating, I took that idea

>> just trying to get people to work

together

>> trying to to do this multidisciplinary

teams. It Yeah. And as I told you the

first day I was there for the job. I was

told by the way you have you have an

impossible job. It's necessary though

because this was part of the grant. What

you're doing is part of the grant. So

you have to do it anyway. And I I did it

for three years and then I decided I I

don't want to do that anymore.

But so I went back to to industry but I

I specifically told the people I was

interviewing with I want to pursue this

like this is the beginning of a

technology where that will have a

machine identify who you are and your

intention

kind of like neuralink except there's no

connection there's nothing going in the

brain it's purely intention so I did end

up working for a company outside of

Washington DC where part of my work was

doing exactly that we're using for

advanced neural networks with random

number generators and got to the point

where uh we're about to set a patent for

this device because it worked. And the

head of the organization at the time was

a retired general who had a buddy who

was an admiral and he said the the

Navy's interested in this for kind of

for obvious reasons. They want ways of

communicating with submarines.

So, uh, at that point, we're like right

on the edge of doing that and we get

bought by another company. And the new

company said, "You're not going to work

on that anymore." So, the wheels

internally started. It was like golden

handcuffs. A lot of money. Let's I mean,

it's a very good position, but I didn't

really want to do that anymore.

>> Did they have a re was it a profitable

issue?

>> The vice president in charge of the lab

did not believe that it was possible.

>> Oh god. He also didn't look at the data,

>> of course.

>> So, he said, "No, we're not going to do

that."

>> He doesn't want to be silly.

>> Yeah. So, I I mean, it's so frustrating.

You have that it worked. We have a thing

here. It's working. No, he just he

didn't want to do it.

>> Oh, that's so frustrating.

>> Yeah. So, few years goes by. I kept

doing all this stuff on the side now

outside of work because it was just too

interesting to drop. Uh my there was a

recession. This was 1992. There was a

recession. uh part of my department was

laid off, including myself. So,

unbeknownst to most people at the time

that the Stargate program uh and by the

way, it wasn't called Stargate then.

There's a lot of code words involved,

but it's just known as Stargate, so I'll

use that. That program was giving

classified contracts to other people

around the world, including at the

University of Edinburgh in Scotland. So,

we had a colleague at the University of

Edinburgh who was creating an automated

Gansfeld testing system. This is a

telepathy system where you press a

button and the people are involved and

everything is automated. It's kind of

getting the human out of the loop except

for the two people in the experiment.

Well, the man who was developing that

unfortunately died. And so, this was an

unfinished project. So, I went to Ed May

who was director of Cart Stargate at the

time and I said, "Well, can I go there

and finish the project?" Yeah, sure.

Okay. So, I went to the University of

Edinburgh for about a year and I worked

on this project to finish the automated

telepathy system and they've run many,

many, many people through that system by

now.

Um, and so while I was there, I finished

that pretty quickly. I was started to

develop the presentiment experiment and

you had Julia Mos on the show recently.

Mh.

>> So she was I think she was talking about

this experiment where you can see if

somebody's body is reacting to something

in the future that is unanticipated

that's random. Well, I I was developing

that at the time. This would have been

around 93 or so. And like uh and so let

me let me tell you a story about the

kind of effect that gave me the idea to

do this experiment.

So, the the usual way that people talk

about it is that you're you drive to

work the same way every every day,

thousands of times, and you have a a

traffic light that you're coming up to,

and it's green, and normally you start

accelerating towards it because you want

to get through the light. Something

tells you today there's something wrong.

I don't know what it is, but I'm going

to slow down. And you keep slowing down.

The cars behind you are beeping and

saying, "What? What's going on?"

You get almost up to the intersection

and a truck blast through their red

light and you would have been hit

broadside if you didn't slow down. So

you have this momentary shock of relief

realizing that you just saved your life

by paying attention to that little voice

inside your head. So I thought, okay,

let's simulate that in the laboratory.

Well, we can't put people in danger, but

we can do emotional tests like that. So

you wire somebody up looking at skin

conductance or pupil dilation or brain

waves all kinds of things in your

nervous system

and then you just record that

continually tell them press a button and

then they're going to see something on a

screen. So it could be a very calm

picture or it could be a very emotional

picture. So emotion can split in two

ways. It could be a very negative

picture like picture of surgery or an

explosion or something or it could be a

positive like a smiling baby. So the two

different veilances they're called and

you don't know which is going to come up

because a true random number generator

is a thing that decides after you press

the button then it decides what it's

going to show you. So nobody knows in

advance including the experimentter. So

I set up an experiment to do that. Uh

and by this time I already I'd left

Edinburgh. I had to make a decision then

again do you want to go back into

industry and I had an offer from Oakidge

National Labs which would have put me

back in the classified world or this

other opportunity which was to uh work

at at the University of Nevada funded by

Robert Bigalow who's probably best known

for the OAP.

>> He's been on here before.

>> Yeah. So Bigalow is very generously

said, "Yeah, I'll I'll pay for your way

to go into the university there." And I

was able to run my own lab. So one of

the very first things I set up then was

first of all, I want to continue working

on this neural network or machine

learning method for making a technology

of intention. That was one of the

things. But the other one was this

presentiment experiment. So I ran that

experiment and it was unbelievably good.

Like it's it's normally you have little

statistical effects. This is like in

your face. Holy smoke. This is a big

thing. Big big uh pre presentiment

effects. Like if skin conductance one

and a half seconds before you well you

press a button you wait 5 seconds then

it selects a picture. So one and a half

seconds before the picture is selected.

If it's emotional you start to become

emotional. If it's calm you remain calm.

So that difference beforehand we call

the presentiment effect. It's your body

somehow or unconscious knowing what

you're about to see. Just like

approaching a light and slowing down.

Something is telling you something.

So we did that experiment and I told

this to one of the guys at the at the

center I was working at and he told me a

story which is far more interesting than

than not going through a red light. So

the story is this.

So he used to go hunting with his

buddies and they had a whole bunch of

guns. His favorite gun was a sixshot

revolver, a double-action revolver. And

so the way that he he would take all the

bullets out, he'd clean the whole thing

out. And he put in 1, two, three, four,

five bullets and leave the hammer over

the empty chamber so it wouldn't get

jostled accidentally. So he he's

cleaning the gun, he's putting in bullet

1, two, three, four. where he picks up

the fifth bullet and he has that feeling

something about this bullet isn't right.

So, he didn't put it in, left it aside,

put the hammer over cylinder six and

then they went hunting. So, this is now

two weeks in advance. They they come

back from hunting. His pistol wasn't

used and a bunch of other guns weren't

used, but they do what you should not do

after you go hunting, which is starting

to drink. So, they're all getting a

little bit too tipsy and drinking too

much, and a fight breaks out between two

people there. One of them picks up my

friend's gun, points it point blank at

somebody else, like right in their face,

and my friend is now looking with horror

because the trigger's getting pulled.

The hammer's going back, the cylinder is

turning, and he's trying to intervene

now. He steps right in front of the gun,

and it goes click.

The hammer hit. It hit that fifth

chamber because it rotated from six to

five.

>> Whoa.

>> So he realized with horror at that

moment that if he had not taken out that

bullet, he would be shot in the head.

And so the afterwards he said, "Everyone

has a bullet with their name on it and

mine is in a safety deposit box and I

know exactly where it is and it's not

coming out."

>> Wow.

>> So that's a real life version of this

which is two weeks in advance. In the

laboratory, we can only look seconds in

advance.

>> Also, you should have the intuition and

not go hunting and drinking with psychos

that are willing to shoot somebody in

the face over an argument.

>> Nevertheless, yeah. So, so what happens?

Uh yeah. So

>> that's crazy though.

>> So that but see this is this is where we

want to go in these kinds of

experiments. You need like real life

stuff that you can actually test in a

controlled way in the laboratory. But

there's all kinds of ethical reasons

obviously why you can't do that. But I'm

pretty sure that if we're able to do to

get something at that level in the

laboratory, we would have much much

stronger results than we currently do.

Now, when it comes to things like remote

viewing and being able to be open and

being able to actually pull it off and

actually

remote view things that you can prove,

wh what is the state of mind these

people are trying to achieve is and what

is the protocol for achieving that state

of mind?

>> It depends on whether you're naturally

talented or not. So, uh, Joe McMmonicle

and a few others that that I know, uh,

if if you, uh, were to ask them at, uh,

at breakfast, uh, [clears throat] could

you remove you what I have in I have a

hidden folder over here, they would

continue eating and tell you the answer

immediately. So, for them, it doesn't

take much at all. And in fact, what Joe

would say, and I I have I have some

pictures from what Joe had done. Joe

would say that uh if he knows in the

afternoon he's going to do a remote

viewing he'll get all the information in

the morning like instantly it'll just

it'll just be there and then he has to

wait until the you know the whole thing

plays out but it's like bang you got it

so it's a matter internally of simply

knowing I need to get this information

and it happens immediately for people

who don't have that natural talent you

go through training where and by by the

way almost everybody can do this but it

does require some training now So for a

an average person the training typically

is to not name an impression which is

really tough. So you have a target which

may which may be somewhere in the world

maybe a person somewhere maybe in an

envelope something like that.

You're taught uh the you will have

something come to mind. You know that

that's the target. You have no idea what

it is but you know that there is a

target you're going to have to describe.

So name the first thing that comes to

mind but not the without naming it. So

you start little scribbles and then you

have more complicated scribbles and you

start adding feelings and senses that

are associated with these scribbles.

Eventually you get to the point where

it's kind of all gels together and then

you get a a coherent image. The problem

is that if you tell somebody, I'm going

to show you a picture in 20 minutes that

you don't know what it is and you say,

"Okay, well, just imagine what you're

going to get and you get a flash of

yellow, you're instantly going to start

thinking of bananas." And once that

happens, you can't not think of bananas

anymore. So that's what I mean by not

naming.

>> So that's one of the very first things

that you learn is anything that comes to

mind that you have a name to is probably

not it. It takes practice, but you can

get there.

>> Wow. What was the most impressive thing

that you ever saw anybody achieve with

remote viewing?

>> After I got the clearances, uh, Hal gave

me the briefing that that everyone gets

like in in skiffs in Congress and

presidents, whatever. I got the same

briefing. So, uh, one picture after the

other of experiments

by Joe and by a bunch of other people

who are not as well known, they

basically give almost a veritical

drawing of the target. And these are

targets that are elsewhere in the world.

These are targets that are in envelopes.

These are targets that are in skiffs.

All of all different kinds of targets

where nothing about the target is known.

like I will tell you a five-digit number

which stands for the target and so all

you have is a five-digit number. Now

give me a description of what I'm going

to show you in two hours and they do it.

>> So you're putting the number to the

target. You're just saying like uh

Moscow is number 654.

>> A random number. Yes.

>> And just by you attributing that number

to whatever this target is, there's a

connection made.

>> Yep.

>> What's happening? How is that?

>> Yeah. [laughter] So

>> what's that?

>> Yeah, we we don't know why that is. Uh

there are theories about it and the

theory requires probably stepping away

from materialism as the only model of

reality. So there are other models which

allow for consciousness whatever that is

because we don't know that either. But

consciousness seems to have a non-local

quality. So it's the same kind of

non-locality that you talk about in

quantum mechanics. M

>> so quantum mechanics has entanglement

which are non-local connections between

things. Uh it is also through time. So

connections through space and time. So

we know that that's a real thing. That's

what the physical world allows. It is as

though consciousness whatever that is

also has that property. It is non-local.

So if you push it hard enough you end up

with something like the mo that movie uh

everything all at the same time. That's

basically what we're talking about.

There is an aspect of reality which we

don't ordinarily see but nevertheless

connects everything throughout space and

time. And so if it that were not true

then things like precognition wouldn't

work so well, telepathy wouldn't work,

remote viewing wouldn't work. None of

that would work. But nevertheless, it

does work. So that is like a more

comprehensive way of understanding what

reality is like. Do you think this is an

emerging quality in human beings or do

you think this is an atrophied quality

that we used to all have before the

development of written language, books,

media, all these different things that

sort of take away this quiet

communication that people probably had

with each other. We believe wolves have

that with each other. Wolves coordinate

somehow. They coordinate attacks on

animals. And it could be through learned

experience, but how do they how do they

remember it and know what to do? And how

do each one have specific roles? Like

one wolf will chase the elk into like a

certain corridor and the other wolves

will wait and be on like a higher ground

and come down and attack. They know that

they do weird stuff that somehow or

another requires some kind of

communication.

>> Yes. And they're way more intelligent

than we have usually thought.

>> Well, think about how intelligent some

dogs are.

>> Yeah. you know, like a Belgian malammoir

or something like that. One of those

dogs they use for military training.

Those those dogs are incredibly

intelligent and they need act. They need

activities. They need things to

stimulate them because their brain is

like firing all day long. Wolf is that

times 100.

>> Yeah. And so most animals, plants,

insects maybe are have consciousness in

some form. And if that consciousness is

similar to ours, it is non-local. Do you

think it's an emerging thing or do you

think it's a thing that we've always

had?

>> I I think that uh we are shaped as

humans by evolution to not pay attention

to the there and then because if we were

paying attention to there and then a lot

then you may not notice that there's a

tiger in front of you who's about to eat

you. And so if you like look over the

the long span of development of whatever

it is we are, people who are walking

around thinking about Pluto a million

years ago would have been pruned out of

existence. [laughter]

So only certain kinds of people

historically were able to do that. We

call them shaman. And the shaman as part

of a tribe were extremely important

because they knew the food would be 10

miles away that way next week. But the

shaman typically could not take care of

themselves very well. You know, their

their minds were off in Pluto and so the

tribe took care of them. And so today,

we don't have that very much. There are

we're distracted by everything. And we

don't have the same uh kinds of needs

that they would have had 10 20,000 years

ago

uh except in some indigenous societies.

So one time I gave a talk for the

Australian government. There was a whole

bunch of ministers there and people in

the military and I was talking about

this sort of stuff and unbeknownst to me

one of the ministers was representative

of the indigenous people there. So I

finished this long talk on telepathy

uh and and she came up afterwards and

said well we've known this stuff for

thousands of years. that's they they

would use it like in the outback there

was no phones but somehow they were in

communication part of the culture. So

they didn't have the distractions and

they had a need. So you can imagine a

more or less isolated culture for a long

period of time that didn't have tigers

immediately always trying to capture

them. They had the need to be able to

communicate that way. We don't have the

need anymore. So it atrophies.

>> Okay. So it atrophies and so with things

like remote viewing, do you think this

is almost like a relearning of a skill

that people had at one point in time?

>> Yeah. And there's still some people who

have some of the genetics because all of

this is basic is devolving back into

talent. Some people have that talent.

>> And you think that's a genetic thing?

>> I think a good chunk of it is genetic.

Yes. So, it's from people in their

ancient past that had that quality, had

that ability, and they've passed on that

trait.

>> Yeah.

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>> So like in Joe McMonicle's case, he was

one of those guys who did search and

rescue behind enemy lines and he always

came back. His team always found their

guy and they always came back alive.

and and so well where did that come

from? Well, he used his intuition in the

field to decide uh let's not go down

that road, let's go over here and and he

was safe. So afterwards when asked when

there was recruiting for people who had

some abilities like this, they would ask

people like that, do you find like and

you're in combat, you never get hit?

Okay, let's talk. Uh the other thing of

course is did you ever have any

experiences beforehand that suggests

that maybe you had these experiences?

Well, Joe did and his sister did too. So

there suggests again some kind of a

familial genetic underpinning for why

people have these experiences.

So I will continue the story because I'm

going to intersect with this genetic

part in a minute. So I'm at UNLV

u doing all kinds of interesting stuff.

Uh somehow the uh the New York Times

learns about what I'm doing. They think

it's an interesting character story for

a parasychologist be working in Las

Vegas because Las Vegas is sometimes

called the the largest parasychology lab

in the world. You have a whole bunch of

people trying to mentally influence more

more or less random systems like they

are all the time.

>> So okay,

>> it's an interesting way to look at

Vegas.

>> Yeah. Well, it kind of is, right? you

toss the dice, you want a certain

result. Well, we do that in the

laboratory, except we don't have a lot

of money associated with it. Uh, I was

able to actually get data from one of

the casinos, the smaller casinos, and

because the general manager was

interested in what I was doing. So, I

said, "Well, could I get all the data,

as much as you have on jackpots for slot

machines and also the table games?" And

a miracle occurred. And she said,

"Yeah." So she gave us the data, was

able to analyze it and among other

things found that jackpots happen more

often and payouts happened were larger

and table games did better between one

one or plus or minus one day from the

full moon

which by the way matches magical lore. I

mean all kinds of things are are related

to when the full moon happens religious

effects and all kinds of things. So I

thought, well, that's interesting. More

jackpots happen plus or minus the day of

the full moon. And so I said to the

general manager, maybe this is something

you don't want to tell people because

they'll all start coming in the full

moon. She said, "Yeah, bring them in

because all you could do with this

information was lose a little bit slower

because everything is, you know, you

Vegas rigged."

>> Yeah. It Well, it's not rigged, but it's

set up in such a way that

>> the odds are against you. Yeah.

>> So, you would lose slower, but but

nevertheless, you'd see that in the

data. So, there's something interesting.

Okay. So, I get to the to the end of my

time at UNLV and a new door opens. And

partially because I because of the New

York Times piece, that book that I had

written at Princeton that nobody wanted

to buy, I suddenly had publishers

calling me and saying, "Do you ever

think about writing a book?" Yeah, I I

have one. So, I published that book.

that caught the attention of people at a

organization called Interval Research

which was funded by Paul Allen the the

co-founder of Microsoft.

So Paul Allen was interested in doing

what he called uh developing the wired

world. This was uh this would have been

started in 1990 as a 10-year project to

figure out given that the internet was

going to be a gigantic thing, what do we

do with it? So this was people that were

that were poached from Apple and from

Xerox Park and the MIT lab and all lots

of places. They brought a hundred people

together. And so I was invited to do a

SAI research program there with a budget

that was 10 times larger than I had at

UNLV and a salary that was three times

larger. So I thought, yeah, that's the

door that I want. So at interval

everything was proprietary because it

was all leading into patents that would

eventually create things and so some of

the things we take for granted now were

developed there. Uh I was there not so

much to develop a psychic technology but

because a small percentage of the

projects were considered blue sky. is

kind of to make sure that everybody in

the lab realize that we're trying to

push the envelope hard in developing new

things. And so it's always useful to

have a couple of speculative projects

around. So I worked on that and then uh

that the 10 years was over in 2000. So

this was all in Silicon Valley. So a

couple of us then left to create a

nonprofit

uh which which we called the boundary

institute which would continue the

research that we were doing and then

that lasted for about a year because

there was the dot crash and we couldn't

raise money to keep ourselves afloat. I

was invited then to join the Institute

of Noetic Sciences where I've been now

for the last 25 years. So the the the

circle here is here I am in college and

looking at this this place studying the

frontiers of consciousness and that's

where I end up and I've been there ever

since and no new doors have opened that

have attracted me. So I'm I'm there and

I've been having great fun at the

institute. I interrupted you when we

were talking about numbers being

associated with targets and you were

expanding on actionable data like real

like what what was the most impressive

thing to you that you saw that people

achieve with remote viewing?

>> Do you mean from an operational sense or

or

>> I mean just just for people listening

like what would be

the most spectacular example of

something that couldn't be achieved any

other way?

Well, one of the things was actually

admitted by President Carter way back

when when they found a a bomber, a

nuclear bomber that that landed

somewhere in Africa uh which could not

be seen from above because of the canopy

of of all the and and nobody knew where

it actually landed.

>> It crashed, right?

>> It crashed. There was a a bomb on board

that they did not want anybody else to

get.

Um, and so they asked one of the remote

viewers. In fact, this one they they

asked several of them, but one of them

specialized in location, which is very

difficult for remote viewing. Like if

you look at a map and you say, well, you

know, put a dot on the map of where it

is. That turns out to not be very easy

even for remote viewers. But this one

lady

was very, very good at that. She was a

dowser. In fact, she was a map dowser.

So you get a big piece of blank. You're

saying dows are like those people that

walk around with the the stick to find

water.

>> Yeah. Except map dowsing is you have a

blank sheet of paper which is linked by

association to an actual map somewhere.

You don't you know you don't want to

give anything away. So you don't use a

real map. Use a piece of paper which is

has little X's on it that map onto an

actual map.

>> Okay.

>> So we asked this lady, her name was

Fran, uh put a mark on the map of where

this bomber landed. And of course, she

doesn't know it's Africa. She doesn't

know anything. She does her thing. She

puts a mark on the map. It says, "I I

think it's there." And so they go there

and they find it within a couple of

kilometers of that spot.

>> Whoa.

>> And so they they originally go to that

spot. They see natives nearby. So they

asked the natives, you know, was there

anything crashing out of the sky

recently? Said, "Yeah, something

happened over there. That's where it

was." Now, what did Carter say when he

when he spoke about this publicly?

>> Carter was asked a very similar question

that did you ever encounter anything

really weird? So, that's the example

that he used.

>> Didn't Carter have a UFO experience

before?

>> He had that as well. Yeah.

>> And Carter was the the folklore is that

Carter was briefed about something

having to do with alien life and he was

so upset that he he started weeping.

>> Yes, I've heard those stories. Yes.

>> What do you think about those stories?

>> It could well be true. Yeah. I mean, so

here there's actually

>> Did you ever hear a rumor of what he was

told?

>> Uh, no. I don't know what he was told.

If I had to guess, given that he was a

very religious person, it probably was

pushing against his religious beliefs.

>> Yeah,

>> that's what I would guess. Well, you

know, that was the the giant rumor that

was going around recently that there was

going to be some big disclosure by the

White House and that a bunch of pastors

had been briefed about this to try to

talk to their flock and and to, you

know, get ahead of it.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> You heard that, right?

>> Yeah.

>> What did you think of that?

>> It could well be true. So, I I know

Jacqu Valet really well. Uh

>> he's a fascinating guy.

>> Yeah. And and I know Gary Nolan and

>> another fascinating

>> Yeah. I' I've I've wor circles where we

basically all known each other for a

long time. uh and the the UFO business

UAP is very similar in some respects to

the psychic side be both in that there's

an enormous amount of misinformation

that has been pushed by government by

other places to deflect attention

>> right

>> and so there there's lots of examples of

that um which I mean because of what we

know now about the UFO thing it's

relatively easy to see how that could

have happened for uh for the SAI

business as well. So just one example, I

I go to the Naval War College and I've

given a number of lectures and one of

them is on telepathy. How do we know

that telepathy actually exists? There's

a bunch of different ways of knowing

that. And so afterwards, two

subcommanders come up. In fact, that's

that's the story. That's the opening

story gambit in my book, The Science of

Magic. So, the two subcommanders come up

and they say, "Uh, well, we have a story

to tell you. These are two independent

subs." They're the commanders of two

subs. So, I'm telling them all

everything we know about telepathy. And

they say, "Well, one time in we're we're

submerged. We're under maneuvers. A

crewman wakes up from a dream and tell

goes to the commander and says, "We need

to surface because something bad has

happened at home."

Well, we can't. We're under maneuvers.

next time we can surface. Well, then you

can call home. So the next time they

surface, they call home. And sure

enough, when the sailor woke up from his

dream, there was indeed something bad

happening at home.

So I had So both of the commanders had

the same story. So I said, well, does

this happen like every Tuesday? No,

there were no false positives. It

happened once and both times it was it

was correct. That's very important to

know. Not simply that it happens, but it

is happening when the submarines are at

a classified depth, which means at least

300 meters, probably more below the

surface of the ocean where it's

extremely difficult to get any kind of

message there. So, it's not

electromagnetic. We don't know what that

would be.

>> What were the events at home that were

bad?

>> They didn't tell me the events at home,

but it was

>> personal events like some in someone's

family,

>> something in their family, something was

going wrong,

>> uh, which turned out to be correct. So,

so one thing is yes, it tells us

something that's important to know from

a scientific perspective because they

are not reachable by ordinary means.

That's the whole point about having a

submarine. Very difficult to know where

they are and get messages to them. The

other thing is that people who are

selected to be submariners are

psychologically extremely stable.

They're not prone to flights of fantasy.

They don't have claustrophobia. They

they don't have any kind of the neurosis

that you would imagine that somebody

would need that go into a submarine for

months submerged who knows where.

>> Right?

>> So it means that this happens to

ordinary people in this case in an

altered state of awareness namely in a

dream state but nevertheless they got it

and there were no false positives. So, I

was a little whenever I give a talk to a

new type of group, especially in the

military, always thinking these guys are

they think I'm nuts because I'm telling

them stuff that shouldn't exist by any

conventional perspective. It's exactly

the opposite. I'm mostly have talked to

officers like up to generals and

admirals and few levels below that. They

are all completely on board and I began

to understand why that not only are they

in in life and death situations and

that's where these things tend to bubble

up but also they had to trust their

intuition and making lots of decisions

that affect other people and they would

not have risen through the ranks unless

they were really really good at it. So

that that's why I was not getting the

kind of push back that I expected to

get.

>> Interesting. The Bell Labs connection is

very interesting too. You know, Bell

Labs is a it's also the source of myth

and folklore about the Roswell crash

that they received things from the

Roswell craft and backgineered it. Do

you know that whole crazy?

>> I I know about those stories. I I don't

know any I don't have any direct

knowledge of anything.

>> Never heard anything when you were

there. There was a company called the

American Computer Company way back in

the day and they just would sell, you

know, Windows computers. You could you

pick out the hard drive and all this

jazz online. They'd build it for you.

>> And they had a whole page of their

website that was dedicated

>> to uh Bell Laboratories and Bell

Laboratories being close to a military

base, not because the military base was

really to protect New York City. It was

really to protect Bell Labs cuz they

were working all this top secret stuff

there and that they had back engineered

some stuff from the Roswell crash. This

is all like this.

>> Maybe

>> it's so fun. Why is that stuff so fun?

>> Yeah, maybe. I mean, after all, they

they invented the fiber optics and

lasers and everything in modern modern.

>> The fiber optics specifically was one of

the things that they discussed as being

something that they discovered. Well,

there is I mean, if you go to the to to

the ordinary history, you can figure out

why that happened. Not that it didn't

involve reverse engineering anything

that there's a long history about why

somebody would have gotten to the point

to realize that you can do certain

things with glass. That would be

interesting.

>> Mhm.

>> Whether the idea came from somewhere

else, that's that I don't know.

>> It's just interesting. It's just it's

it's fascinating when you find out that

there are these very limited access

programs that are beyond top secret that

even the president can't find out about

them.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And so one of the

disadvantage of a special access program

is that you could be working next to

somebody and are not allowed to talk

about what they're doing. And that that

was happening a lot.

>> So a lot of the Stargate program is now

public. There's like four volumes that

that go through great gory detail on

this called the Stargate Archives.

Not all of it has been released. So, a

lot of the military stuff won't will

never be released because it involves

people and methods and so on. Some of

the research side is not released

either. And so, I know about that

because I was I was in there. I also

just by virtue of hanging around other

people, you learn things that that they

talk about. So we knew about some of

those things too. And I know when you

talking to Halpoff and occasionally you

would ask him something and he say,

"Well, I can't talk about that." Well, I

can't talk about this.

>> Right. That's a problem. Does that

frustrate you that you can't openly

discuss some of these things?

>> Yes. It was especially frustrating when

I was working there because we go into

the building and we're doing all kinds

of interesting psychic things and you go

out of the building and it does not only

doesn't exist that if it ever comes up

in conversation, you don't say I can't

talk about it because that would mean

they know this, you have to go along

with the game and just agree with

everybody else that it's all nonsense.

>> Wow.

>> So, it's nonsense out there and in here

we're working on it. So, that kind of

>> what a weird psychological dilemma.

Well, even worse,

the whole point about classification is

to keep secrets.

We were figuring out ways that you can't

keep secrets, right? I mean, the whole

thing about remote viewing and telepathy

and all that stuff, there are no secrets

with the right talented people. Nothing

can be shielded. Nothing

>> outside. Everything is all about

secrets. So one of the reasons I think

that these topics are still have a

stigma attached to them and why there's

disinformation

is because imagine how the society would

work if there were no secrets.

>> Do you don't you think that technology

is eventually taking us into that

direction?

>> Yes, but it's not going to be neurolink.

It's it's not going to be brain

computer stuff. It's going to be the

real thing. You so you think technology

will aid us in achieving the real thing?

>> Yes.

>> How so?

>> Okay. So,

one day we're talking to Gary Nolan. Uh

Gary says, "Uh, have you ever looked at

the genetics of of highly talented

people? There's a lot of folklore out

there that there are people who are

psychic who come from psychic families

and then there are people who don't have

anything psychic and don't have anybody

talking about psychic stuff

that suggests genetics. So this was a

couple years ago. We decided to do an

experiment that we call side genes.

We're looking for the psychic gene. More

likely a polygenetic trait but

nevertheless something about genetics.

So, we do an experiment where we recruit

3,000 people using the internet who say

that they're psychic from psychic

families. And then we do all kinds of

vetting to make sure that they are who

they say they are and they have some

talent. And we get their DNA. Uh we only

had enough money to find out of the

3,000 people 13 because we also did

face-to-face interviews to make sure

they weren't nuts. So, we get their DNA.

Then we find match controls and we do

standard methods of comparing the two

the two sets of genomes. And so we found