Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

NIGHT. All day.

>> Mr. Paul. So good to see you again.

>> Hey, good to be back.

>> Consciousness. So, um, this new book,

what inspired it? What what got you to I

mean, you you've kind of explored

consciousness a little bit with your

>> psychedelic book. Yeah. How to change

your mind. Well, actually this book was

inspired by the research I did for that

book. Um, as you know, I had several uh

research trips. Um, and uh,

>> do you do air quotes when you say

research?

>> Yes.

And I um, and two things happened that

were really interesting. One is there's

something about psychedelics that makes

you think about consciousness. it, you

know, it's like smudging the windscreen,

the windshield that you normally is

perfectly transparent and you see the

world through. Suddenly it's like

different and you realize there's

something between me and the world and

what is it? And that's consciousness.

And so like a lot of people have who've

done psychedelics, you start wondering

about this mystery. Why is it this way,

not that way? So that was one

experience. The other was I had an

experience in my garden in Connecticut

where we have a house of um uh walking

through my garden and getting the

powerful impression that the plants were

conscious and that these I remember

these this particular it was a plume

poppy or several plume poppies and they

were like returning my gaze. They were

very benevolent. They were, you know,

putting out positive vibes,

but like they were conscious, much more

alive than they had ever been. And like

a lot of insights on psychedelics, I

didn't know what to do with it. Like, is

it true? Is it just a drug thing? You

know, what is it? Um, but I decided it'd

be interesting to find out. And uh I

consulted a couple people, scientists,

and said, "What do you do with an

insight like that?" And they said,

"Well, you test it against other ways of

knowing, including scientific ways of

knowing." And that led me down this uh

really interesting path uh exploring

plant intelligence and plant

consciousness. So basically it yeah the

book grew out of the psychedelic

experiences and some meditation

experience. Meditation also has a way of

making you like hyper aware of how

strange your thoughts are. Where are

they coming from? Who's thinking them?

>> So there's a bunch of different schools

of thought when it comes to

consciousness, right? There's one like

the Rupert Sheldrake thing that sort of

everything has consciousness and there's

the sort of

rational scientists that believe it

exists somewhere in the mind. I don't in

the brain.

>> Yeah, in the brain, excuse me. And then

there's people that think that the brain

is essentially just an antenna,

>> right?

>> That's tuning in to the greater

consciousness of whatever it is that's

out there.

>> Yeah. Do you have any one of them that

you hold

>> or they're all equally plausible? I, you

know, I went into the experience

assuming because this is what most

scientists assume that somehow a certain

arrangement of neurons in the brain

generates consciousness, you know,

subjective experience. But no one's been

able to show that. We've gotten nowhere

in that effort to, you know, we can we

we might correlate certain parts of the

brain with consciousness, but we don't

understand how three pounds of matter

could generate the feeling of being you.

>> You talk about it in your book where the

the two gentlemen who had the bat.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Um that was Kristoff Ko, who's a a a

great brain scientist, and David

Chomers, who's a philosopher. And uh

this goes back to like in the early 90s.

They were getting drunk in a bar in

Bremen, Germany. And uh Kristoff Ko had

had really was at the beginning of the

modern scientific exploration of

consciousness. And he was working with

Francis Crick who had just come off of a

Nobel Prize for the discovery of DNA.

And Crick, who is like the most famous

scientist in the world at the time, um

thought, well, the same kind of

reductive science that discovered the

double helix DNA and explained heredity,

um I'm going to do that for

consciousness. He's very arrogant man,

and he he thought it just, you know, no

problem. Um and Crick was kind of his

sidekick. I'm sorry. Uh Ko was his

sidekick. And so Ko who shared that kind

of confidence made this bet with

Chomemers that they would find the

neural coralates the parts of the brain

that are responsible for consciousness

within 25 years.

That was 25 years 27 years ago now. And

uh Chomers won the bet. Chomers is

famous for um coining the term the hard

problem to you know to um describe the

whole effort to figure out

consciousness. And it's a hard problem

for a lot of reasons. Um I mean it is

one of the biggest mysteries in the

universe. I mean how consciousness come

came to be. Did it evolve? Was it always

here? Um but he his his point was that

our science is based on third person

objective quantifiable measurements and

consciousness is fundamentally a

subjective first person experience. So

how does that those tools reach in and

say any anything of value about

consciousness? So he said you know there

easy problems of consciousness we can

figure out like perception um emotion

things like that but but there is this

hard problem how do you get from matter

to mind and uh he won the bet. M

>> there was a ceremony I went to a couple

years ago at NYU and uh uh Ko presented

Chomemers with a case of very fine

Madera wine and uh and renewed the bet.

He said, "All right, in another 25

years."

>> That's optimistic. How old are these

gentlemen?

>> Ko is in his late 60s, so we'll see if

he's around for this. But uh and Chmer

is a little bit younger.

Um it's it's such an interesting thought

because we know that the mind contains

if damaged right it we know that there's

certain aspects there's certain parts of

the mind where like labbotoies for

instance we know that if we disturb it

it radically affects behavior. We know

that there's parts of the mind that you

can stimulate that can actually recall

memories. Yeah. Right. There's some some

weird stuff going on there. So we know

it's somehow or another at least

functionally connected to consciousness.

>> Oh yeah, it's definitely a relationship.

But but

>> if it's generating consciousness, that's

one thing. But it could be, as you said

earlier, it could be receiving

consciousness.

>> And the same things would hold true that

if you damage parts of the brain,

>> sure. Yeah. Yeah. Damage signal

television, right? Um

>> so that that doesn't determine the truth

of either theory. And then the other one

is pansychism

which you were alluding to. I don't know

if that's Rupert Sheldrake would he I

think he would believe more in the field

of consciousness.

>> Yeah. Right. He was a morphic resonance

guy but I think he also subscribed to

this idea that things contain

consciousness. It's not his but you know

what I mean. It's well it's been it's

pretty universal, right? There's a lot

of people that have subscribed to this

idea that everything has consciousness.

>> Yeah. uh that that even the particles

that this table is made of have some

insy little bit of of psyche. And the

challenge there is so that that solves

the problem of how did it evolve? It

didn't evolve. It was always here.

>> But then you have this other problem

like how well how do you take these if

every one of our cells is made of

particles that are conscious? How do you

combine them in such a way that you get

the sort of consciousness we have?

>> Uh

>> it's called the combination problem and

nobody solved that. It's a, you know,

it's a really deep mystery and uh this

is a this is an odd book in some ways in

that I don't know if this is very

selling, but you'll know less at the end

than you do at the beginning,

>> but it's a fun ride.

>> Oh, it's Yeah, I think it's a great

ride. It was a great ride for me. I

learned so much.

>> Well, it's a fun ride to consider these

things that no one can really figure out

or not yet.

>> Yeah. And also just to be put in touch

with the fact you have this marvel going

on in your head all the time. You have a

voice in your head. You know, we're

talking to each other, but you've got

another voice going on thinking what

you're going to ask the you know, what

the next question is,

>> maybe what you're going to have for

dinner. You know, there's it's it's this

amazing interior space we have.

>> Yeah.

>> And nobody understands how it came to

be.

>> And he can manage it,

>> which is also interesting because like I

don't think about what I'm going to have

for dinner. That's that's the thing to

stay no about any of those things. It's

the way to stay locked in in a podcast.

>> Yeah. That's true.

>> Only think because you can let your mind

wander. Especially if someone on the

other side is boring.

>> Yeah.

>> And then I'm like, "Oh no, this

conversation's going to be pulling

teeth." And then I start thinking about

a new joke I'm working on or, oh, I got

to get my car fixed.

>> Well, that's called spotlight

consciousness when you can like really

like put the blinders on. Yes.

>> And and rule everything out. And that's

opposed to uh lantern consciousness

where you're taking in all sorts of

information. and you're letting your

mind wander

>> and that, you know, they both have their

value for for for our careers. Spotlight

consciousness is essential for our work.

We have to be able to focus uh to get

through school. We have to be able to

focus, but you know, children have this

other kind of consciousness that's

really wild because they're very

undisiplined. they can't stay on task,

but they're taking in so much

information and the world is just full

of wonder and awe and um uh and

psychedelics, you know, is a way to

recover that kind of consciousness

because you you're getting lots of

sensory information from all over the

place. It's very hard to focus. Um and

uh so it's a taste of that other, you

know, childhood consciousness.

>> I always say that about marijuana as

well. Like there's a thing about

marijuana that people always say that it

makes them paranoid. And I say it makes

you aware of all the things you should

be paranoid about.

>> Like like you're very we're very

vulnerable creatures, you know, but we

like to pretend that we are not, you

know, which is I found that out of all

of my friends, the ones that have tried

marijuana and hated it are all the ones

that are control freaks.

>> Yeah. They're all like really give up

control.

>> Yeah. They're all really buttoned down.

very serious, like really worried about

outcomes, really concentrating on their

career, really worried about,

>> you know, just certain things that are

just

a part of their daily life. And then

they get a couple of hits of good weed

and then they're like, "Oh my god, we're

on a planet."

You start freaking out like, "Oh my god,

none of this makes sense. All this is

crazy."

You know, um,

>> the best piece of advice that I had when

I was, you know, starting my exploration

of psychedelics is you have to

surrender.

>> Yes.

>> If you resist, you're going to be

miserable. You're going to get so

anxious and so paranoid.

>> And if you let go, it's going to work

out.

>> Yeah. You just got to be able to accept

whatever it's showing you.

>> And um, you know, we live in a very

strange culture where that's illegal.

>> One of the most

>> Well, not everywhere, right? I mean,

it's changing.

>> Well, it is changing fortunately and

there's some talk about it changing

federally. You know, I actually talked

to RFK Jr. about that. There's some

amazing therapies that are hugely

beneficial to veterans, police officers,

people with severe PTSD that have

experienced, you know, horrors that the

average person never has to experience.

And then they're forced to just like go

back, they're released, go back to

regular life. I know you've served us in

overseas and you've seen people blow up,

but now go to the supermarket,

>> take this SSRI and be okay.

>> And you know, I know a bunch of them and

so many of them have benefited

particularly from Ibagane.

>> I gain um the work that Rick Doblin and

M done. Yes. MDMA and and psilocybin.

Those three are the big ones that I

think

>> well you know I heard a lot of positive

noise out of the administration at the

beginning that they were um very much in

favor of of um approving the FDA

approving MDMA first and then

psilocybin. I don't think we're there

with Ibeane yet just because the

research hasn't been done although it

has shown great benefit anecdotally but

something happened in the last month or

two um and there is uh there was um

either compass pathways that was going

to submit for psilocybin therapy or maps

with um was on a list of five drugs that

were going to get an expedited approval

process. this list went up to the White

House and the psychedelic was taken off

it. So, there's somebody in the White

House who doesn't want to see this

happen.

>> Um, so it may slow down even even if RFK

Jr. is in favor and some other people at

the FDA are in favor. Um, and maybe

they're just waiting to get past the

election.

>> It could be that it's too controversial

for something to do before the midterms.

>> Yep. Yep.

>> Um, that's a gross way to live your

life.

always worrying about midterms and

elections and you can't do what you

actually want to do or think is right to

do because you're worried about public

perception. It's just

>> and I don't think it would be unpopular.

I mean, the fact that it's helpful to

vets and first responders and women

who've been victims of sexual abuse

seems to me that's a very sympathetic

group of people.

>> Yeah. And everyone has experienced loss

of family members. There's a bunch of

different things that it can help you

with that that are way better for you

than just numbing your mind all day

long. Yeah.

>> Which is what a lot of people are

choosing to do. And then unfortunately a

lot of people self-medicate as well. So

then they get involved in,

>> you know, all sorts of stuff that they

just pick up off the street or they

start using alcohol, you know.

>> Well, you know, it's a this to go back

to consciousness. This is this is a very

common thing that people want to be less

conscious,

>> right? And I get that if you had trauma,

um, if you're if you're a ruminator and

being in your mind is a really scary

place to be.

>> Yeah,

>> it doesn't solve anything. But you have

all these techniques we have for muting

consciousness and just being less aware,

less present. And one of the things that

I concluded after doing all this

research on consciousness is that um

it's funny I I was going down this path

of tight focus sol you know it was a

very kind of western male

framework which we got a problem what's

the solution hard problem of

consciousness what's the right theory

and at a certain point I realized okay

that's an interesting question it's

probably not solvable now but there is

this incredible phen phenomenon that

that we have this interior space where

we have complete mental freedom, total

privacy, we can think whatever we want

and we're and we're giving it away. um

we're we're either, you know, muffling

it with drugs and things like that

or we're filling that time with social

media, you know, scrolling. Um uh you

know I mean we've heard about hacking

our attention and and we know these

algorithms you know from social media

are very good at like giving us these

little dopamine hits but um that's

that's time that we used to spend in

spontaneous thought you know daydreaming

mind wandering which can be very

creative. So um I I I came out of it

thinking no the I may not solve

consciousness but I'm going to

appreciate it. I'm gonna use it. I'm

gonna um create a space for it. And and

you know, meditate is one way. Using

psychedelics is another way. These are

all ways to be in your head and explore

what's there, which is kind of

miraculous.

>> Yeah. There's a bunch of different ways

to do I mean, some people like to do it

through running.

>> Yeah. You know, running is uh also

they've found one of the things they've

found recently is that running with when

in terms of endogenous canabonoids like

runner's high is an actual real thing.

>> Oh yeah, it's a real thing. There's a

drug released that feels great and it's

rewarding you for

>> but it doesn't [ __ ] with your

perceptions. It doesn't mess with your

motor skills. Doesn't cloud your

judgment.

>> It just makes you feel great.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Experiences of awe do this too. you

know, you go to the Grand Canyon or

something and or a great piece of art

and you have this feeling of like

>> powerful uh presence and uh and it's

very interesting and it shrinks the ego.

I have a a good friend who's a colleague

at Berkeley, a psych psychologist who

studies awe. Um and uh he does this cool

experiment where he has people um draw a

picture of themselves on graph paper,

you know, just stick figure or something

like that. And then he takes them river

rafting or something like that or even

just shows them a picture of Euseite and

then he has them draw themselves again

and they draw themselves at like half

the size because their sense of self has

been overwhelmed by this transcendent

experience.

>> Oh,

>> and uh so he calls it the the small self

and it feels good. I mean we're we're so

kind of weird about the self, you know,

we celebrate it, right? Self-confidence.

We want our kids to have, you know,

self-esteem and self asssurance, yet we

do all sorts of things to get away from

it. Um to over, you know, to transcend

it.

>> Well, I think it's because without those

things, you're never going to make it in

life. Yes.

>> It's adaptive. You definitely It's

definitely gets things done. But it also

isolates you, right? Because the ego

builds walls and um and when the walls

come down, we feel like we're part of

something much larger. And that feels

really good. Well, I think my advice to

people is once you get competency in a

in a thing, forget about the

self-respect and forget about all that

self stuff and just concentrate on the

thing, whatever it is.

>> Yeah.

>> And you can find some sort of meditative

at least beneficial like what whatever

you get from meditation is which is like

a cleansing of the mind. Like a lot of

people find that through archery. You

know, archery is a a weird thing because

at the moment of releasing the arrow,

it's like almost impossible to think

about anything else. All you're thinking

about is hitting the target. And there's

so many different things that you have

to have in position. There's so much

going on that people when they're

troubled love to go to an archery range

and just hit targets and it just clears

your mind out. This episode is brought

to you by Armra. Every week there's some

new wellness hack that people swear by

and after a while you start thinking why

do we think we can just outsmart our

bodies. That's why armra colostrum

caught my attention. It's something the

body already recognizes and it has

hundreds of these specialized nutrients

for gut stuff, immunity, metabolism,

etc. I first noticed it working around

training, especially workout recovery.

Most stuff falls off but I am still

taking this. If you want to try, Armra

is offering my listeners 30% off plus

two free gifts. Go to armorra.com/rogan.

>> It's flow. It's flow, right? I mean,

it's a feeling you get to when your work

is going really well

>> and you're not thinking about it. You're

just in it.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's a it's a really precious

experience.

>> It really is. But if you're thinking

about yourself and your self-image, like

that's not it's not going to come.

>> It's not. It's not. Yeah, it's a it's a

interesting trap, you know. Um we we've

had these discussions in standup comedy

about uh joke thieves and um they don't

really make it anymore because the

internet the internet has essentially

like eliminated that problem

>> for the most part. Um but the kind of

mentality that makes you steal a joke is

the exact kind of mentality that keeps

you from writing a joke. Mhm.

>> So, the kind of people that began their

career stealing material, what happens

is like early on they'll have like one

good comedy special because it's got a

bunch of other people's material in it

and then they get outed

>> and so then they have to show they can

do another and the other specials are

always terrible. I mean, unbelievably

awful. like someone's doing a cheap

impression of the original person who

had all this great insight

>> because the very thing that keeps you

from doing it is the thing that you've

been doing like thinking about yourself

like I'm going to take these jokes and

I'm going to make it. I'm going to have

a big career. People are going to laugh.

They're going to love me. Here we go

with no regard whatsoever for that other

person's creativity.

>> That is like

>> So that takes you out of

>> poisoning your own creativity,

>> right?

>> It's weird.

>> It is weird. It's weird because like

everybody that I've ever talked to

that's either an author or even

musicians or comedians when something

comes to them when they're writing it's

like it comes from somewhere else. It's

like I didn't even write it.

>> It's and you know we call we we talk

about being in the zone and there are

times when you're writing it doesn't

happen every day but there are times

when you're writing where you're just

not thinking but one sentence after

another after another and you don't know

where they're coming from

>> right

>> and it's a it's a wonderful feeling.

Well, Stephen King used to get

obliterated so that he could get to that

spot. Like there's books,

>> what do you mean obliterated?

>> Like cocaine, alcohol, like his best

work. Like he wrote Kujo. He didn't even

remember it.

>> He didn't remember any of it. He was

obliterated. He would just drink like

cases of beer and do lines of coke and

write this [ __ ] insane fiction. And

he didn't know where it was coming from,

you know? But I mean, he showed up every

day and sat down with the computer

and then it all came out. And

>> it's such a weird mix of being

disciplined and something else.

>> But it's very common amongst writers.

Yeah. Like Connor Thompson. Same sort of

situation.

>> Well, a lot of writers do that after

they've written. They don't I don't know

how many writers write under the

influence.

>> Oh, I know a few.

>> But there's Yeah.

>> Yeah. I know quite a few.

>> That's interesting.

>> I know a lot of write under the

influence of Aderall.

>> Yeah. Well, and for me it's caffeine. M

>> I mean I have a cup of coffee going the

whole time I'm writing and that kind of

keeps me

>> Caffeine is a is a focus chemical. It's

it's uh it's it definitely encourages

this spotlight consciousness.

>> Well, you talked about how you took this

long break from caffeine and then when

you took it again it was almost like a

psychedelic for you.

>> It was crazy how great it was. No, it

really was. It was like one of the best

drug experiences I've had. I It was

three months off caffeine. I did this

fast for this book I was writing. And uh

and then I was like, "Okay, now I'm

going to have a cup." And I was like,

"Wow." And I and I tried to hold on to

that, you know. I said, "All right, I'm

I'm only going to have coffee once a

week and not build up tolerance." Uh and

and I I stuck to that for a few weeks.

And then I had like a Thursday deadline.

>> I say, "I'll move it up a couple days."

And I slippery slope. And then I was

back to every day.

>> I like it.

I like a big French press where I could

put a lot of grinds in there, make it

super strong.

>> When I'm riding, it's like, woo. It just

it just

>> it makes all the difference.

>> Locks you in.

>> I had trouble writing that that

three-month period. I really did.

Imagine my focus. I I felt like I so I

had pretty good concentration. I never

had ADHD. I had it for those three

months.

>> That's crazy.

>> Stephen King said the biggest um problem

for him was quitting smoking. You said

when he quit smoking cigarettes, it's

like he really felt a slowdown in his

>> Well, that Yeah, it's that ritual. It's

the drug, too. And and and nicotine is

another focus drug definitely like speed

or something. Um but it's also writing

is so much about ritual. Like I got my

coffee here, I have my cigarette here

and between every paragraph, you know.

>> So, um changing those rituals is really

hard. I I mean I I only smoked into my

20s and uh and quitting, you know, made

it very hard to write for a while.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. It's a

very ritualized process.

>> Well, I worry about the people that like

especially journalists. I know quite a

few journalists that have an aderall

problem.

>> Yeah.

>> Because it's just like you got a

deadline 2,000 words by, you know, 2

a.m. Let's go.

>> And that's that's the drug for that.

Definitely. But it's just it's such a

crutch.

>> Yeah. And you can't sustain it long

term.

>> And that definitely messes with your the

way you think.

>> Oh, yeah. I think over time. Yeah.

>> It has to.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, it's amphetamines,

>> right? No, that's why caffeine is such a

good drug. It doesn't have a lot of I

mean, you can overdo it. I think I think

it improves your health and mental

health up to about eight cups a day.

after that incre your risk of suicide

and depression go up.

>> Did you have any communication with any

monks or any people who do TM or did you

>> Yeah, I had some interesting experiences

around that. So there's a long section

on the self which is one of the more

interesting um manifestations of

consciousness, right? I mean it's like

that we have this idea that we're

there's a continuity, right? that who

you are now is has some golden thread

attaching you to your 13-year-old self,

which is really weird because your body

is every cell has turned over many, many

times. You've changed in all sorts of

ways. Um, but this continuity is really

important to us.

>> And uh, you know, the Buddhists think

the self is an illusion.

>> And I I interviewed a couple of them. Uh

Matthew Ricard is a French Nepoese monk

in his 80s uh who lives in uh Nepal and

he's written some really interesting

things on the self. And uh I I said u

I'm I'm really curious about how you can

find out for yourself whether the self

is real. Um and you know famously there

was a philosopher in the 18th century

David Yume who was wanted to write about

the self and and he thought well I'm

going to introspect to see what what

what I can learn about the self and he

goes into his mind you know in a kind of

meditation and he said I found all sorts

of perceptions and feelings and thoughts

but I didn't find a thinker I didn't

find a perceiver and I didn't find a

feeler there's like nobody home and it's

a really interesting exercise to do

because you Well, fine. There's nobody

home. There's just the thoughts. And and

who's thinking them? Not clear. And

anyway, so this Buddhist um monk said,

"Are there any meditations that help

with this?" And he said, "Yeah." And he

gave me one. And he says, "Think of your

mind as a house with many rooms. And um

there's a thief somewhere in the house

and go room by room in your head and

look for the thief. and you will find no

thief. And then sit with that that

finding. Um and that thief is the self.

And um uh so I did it twice. The first

time I did it.

>> Why does the self have to be a thief?

>> I don't know. It's just a metaphor. I

know cuz he's a baseball bat. Do you

have a gun? Like you're looking for

someone in your house. That's kind of

crazy.

>> I know. You're not armed. Um anyway, uh

so the first time I did it, this is kind

of weird. I was interviewing this

hypnotist at Stanford named David

Spiegel and he's a psychiatrist who uses

hypnotism. Really interesting guy. And

he uses hypnotism to help people with

multiple personality disorders. He can

actually make them change which person

they're accessing. You know, these are

people whose whose consciousness

contains could be 20 different people.

Um, and I said, "Could we do a test?"

Um, and can you put me under hypnotize

me? And then I wanted to do that

exercise of going through the house. So

he did. First thing he does is, um, I

don't know if Have you ever been

hypnotized?

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. Okay. For giving up cigarettes or

something?

>> No. No. I have a friend who is my friend

Vinnie Shoreman. He is a mental coach

and um a hypnotist. He works with

fighters.

>> Oh. And I I I had him on the podcast a

few times and I was just curious as what

the experience was like. So I said,

"Well," and he said, "Well, is there

anything you want to change?" I go, "I

kind of procrastinate too much. There's

a few things that I do that I don't

like. You know, I'm kind of lazy about

certain things. I like to find out like

what is that? Like what what's the the

heart of that?" Um what I was shocked

about the experience of being hypnotized

was that um first of all that it works

that you really are in this very bizarre

altered state but that I was very aware

>> that I was in this altered state but I

didn't have the the desire to get out of

it.

>> Yeah.

>> First of all Vinnie's a friend. I felt

really relaxed. I was in my studio just

sitting on a couch. I was chill.

>> Um but it was uh very strange. It's like

a a you like a almost, you know, to use

the room metaphor. It was almost like I

was in a room that I didn't know I had.

>> Interesting. It's like a trance. It's a

light trance.

>> A light trance. But, you know, it's not

like I would like go kill the president.

Like, it's not like I would be like,

"Okay." Like I was

>> No, they can't make you do things you

don't want to do. That's that's the

myth.

>> But what do you think they were doing

when they were doing that MK Ultra

stuff? when they were trying to figure

out if they could program

>> control. Yeah. No, they were they were

they had the idea.

>> Well, let me just finish the story and

then we'll get back to MK.

>> That's what I do. I go all over the

place. I'm sorry.

>> But hypnosis,

>> so he puts me on Yeah, it's a real thing

and I didn't realize it and it can be

very therapeutic, but not everyone can

be hypnotized, right? The first thing he

does is a is a sort of a test

>> and uh I scored like nine out of 10. So,

I'm pretty easy to hypnotize. What is

the what's the thing that would keep you

from being hypnotized?

>> I don't know. But some pe there's a real

variation among humans in their

hypnotizability is the word they use.

And uh I don't know what would

>> Is it control freaks?

>> That's a good question. It could well

be. I'm not sure. I could I could ask

David Spiegel. Definitely.

>> Super skeptical people like this is

[ __ ] the whole time they're doing

>> Yeah, maybe. I don't know if it's about

resistance or just the nature of your

mind or how suggestible you are, you

know? It may be something like that. So

he puts me into this uh hypnotic trance.

He has this wonderful baritone voice

which helps a lot. And um and I start

going from room to room thinking I'm not

going to find anything. But in every

room I find a version of myself. I find

the 13-year-old bar mitzvah boy. I find

the, you know, the 22year-old, you know,

college graduate moving to New York

City. I find the a 32-year-old father of

an infant, you know, all with different

outfits and um so I found many selves

and but and they were distinct. They

were very different selves, but they

were all me. So it didn't work that

time. Um and it was just an interesting

odd result. Um and I did it another

time. Um so I had this other experience.

Uh I had heard of this Zen teacher named

uh Joan Halifax. She's also in her 80s.

She has a retreat center in Santa Fe

called Upupaya. Very wise woman. She was

married to Stan Grath for in the 70s for

a few years. And they were both giving

huge doses of LSD to people who were

dying, like 600 micrograms of um LSD.

And she herself was very involved with

psychedelics at the time. And then later

she discovered Zen Buddhism. Anyway, I

had heard that she described Upupaya,

this retreat center where people can go

on two-week retreats or whatever, as a

factory for the deconstruction of

selves. And I was really curious about

that because I was writing this chapter

on the self. So, I asked her if I could

come and uh she said, "Yeah, come to the

retreat center." And uh and I I said, "I

want to interview you about your your

philosophy of the self." And um I get

there and she said she you know, we have

one conversation. She says, "You know,

you're really lost in your head with

this book project. You need a different

kind of experience. I'm going to send

you to the cave." So, there is she owns

a piece of property 50 miles north of

Santa Fe, uh, that she calls the

retreat. And, um, it's got a bunch of

very primitive huts. Um, and some of the

monks that work with her had had dug out

a cave in a southacing hillside. They

dug a cell in it and then put a sliding

glass door. It's really basic. No power,

no water. Um, and she said, "I think you

should spend a few days in the cave and

think about the self." Um, or experience

the self rather. You know, I should have

known that a Zen priest was not going to

be, you know, was going to be allergic

to concept and interpretation and and

all the, you know, the plane I was on.

And she was, it was kind of like a

co-an, an experiential Co-anne. And it

was a profound experience. Um, you know,

our sense of self depends on other

people. You know, it's in the friction

between people that we define ourselves

and and figure out what we think. And

when you're alone and it was an extreme

solitude for several days, it's the

edges of yourself kind of soften in a

really interesting way. And um I got in

touch with uh the

the the just the um the power of

consciousness. I mean I was meditating

like four or five hours a day and then I

was just chopping wood and sweeping out

the place and making a cup of tea.

Everything became kind of a ritual and

when you have rituals you don't need

volition. I mean there is no valition.

So that also erodess the sense of self

>> and the meditation was doing that and um

so it was a it was a really interesting

experience.

>> I finally got her to sit down for an

interview and the first thing she said

was I have divevested a meaning.

So she just doesn't like operating on

that on that you know intellectualized

basis. And uh so she got me off of the

dime and and you know this there's a

shift in the book as it goes on from

trying to understand consciousness to to

learning how to use consciousness.

>> Did you ask her to expand what she means

by that? I have divevested in meaning.

>> Yeah. She's just not interested in

interpretation. she that Zen is just

about um experiencing the sense field

without concept um without you know this

kind of heady approach and that theories

no interest in theories at all of

consciousness. It was just like be with

yourself in the middle of nowhere and uh

yeah it was a it was a priceless

experience.

>> She's out there.

>> Oh yeah, she's out there. But you know

she's also a grounded person. I' I'd

give you a couple examples. She uh she

works with people on death row

counseling them. Uh she um you know

worked with people who were dying. Uh

did a lot of hospice work. She um led uh

a group of doctors and dentists that

once a year went to these mountains in

um Nepal where they have no health care

or dentistry whatsoever. and she would

bring these volunteers and they would

sleep in um tents in like 20°ree

weather, circumn this whole hill, and

she did that till she was 80 once a

year. So, she's a

>> she's a serious serious character.

>> That sounds fun.

>> Yeah,

>> she sounds like a fun person to talk to.

I just love a person that goes that far

out there. It's like that, you know,

they're they're taking this concept of

meditation and consciousness to like a

black belt level.

>> Yeah. And also for people who think

that, you know, meditation and Buddhism

is just kind of disengaging from the

world and, you know, kind of it's not

like that at all. She's really engaged.

>> I think that's an ignorance. It's based

on the idea that these monks go and they

become celibate and all they do is

meditate all day. Well, that's silly.

That's a lot of people's perspective.

Yeah.

>> Like that's silly. Why are they doing

that? Go get a job. You need a nice

watch.

What are you doing out there with

[ __ ] sandals on?

But the thing is is ultimately I think

one day when you look back on your life,

you'll say, "Was I happy? Was I enjoying

the experience? Do I think I did a good

job being me?" And um everything that

you can find that can help you answer

that question. Yes.

Uh, I think you should explore.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> And there's going to be different things

that work better for different people

and different personalities.

>> But explore is the key word. I mean,

like take action to explore what works

for you, what doesn't work for you, and

and

>> break out of just kind of wrote,

>> routine, mindless behavior. I mean,

we're all, you know, we have these

algorithms that we follow and we get

stuck in them. And uh yeah, I mean I

think that's one of the reasons taking a

day out of your life to have a

psychedelic experience can be incredibly

valuable because um first of all no

technology, right? It's a day it's a day

without phones. Um it's a day when you

are in the space of your head. It's a

day when you're visiting your

subconscious um and uh getting in touch

with all the all the things your mind

can do.

>> Yeah. And we don't do that enough. And

you can do that in meditation, too. I

It's harder work, but you can do that in

meditation.

So, I I started to think in terms of the

that we're polluting our consciousness

now. And with social media, I think I

think that, you know, that was a real

issue because they figured out how to

monetize our attention. Chat bots

represent a much more serious threat.

Um, you know, you have people falling in

love with chat bots. You have people

turning to them at as as friends. 72% of

American teens say they turn to AI for

companionship.

>> 72%

>> 72%. This is the fastest uptake of any

technology in history.

>> Um, it's already 800 million people are

using AI. Um,

>> but that I that's crazy that that many

of them use it as a friend.

>> Yeah. Well, there kids who come home

from school and they want and they have

a chatbot on their phone and they want

to tell the chatbot what happened during

the day before they tell their parents.

>> Whoa.

>> There's a thing now called AI psychosis,

right? People who have done lost touch

with reality because of their

relationship with chatbots. Um, you've

heard about there've been a couple

suicides.

>> Um, there was one

>> they've encouraged people.

>> Yeah. Basically, there was this one kid.

He was a teenager and he was suicidal.

And he asked the chatbot, "Should I

leave the noose I'm going to use out

somewhere my parents can see it?" In

other words, cry for help. The chatbot

said, "No, no, keep this between us."

>> Whoa.

>> And then he killed himself.

>> Whoa.

>> So, um,

that, you know, so it's one thing to

hack our attention here. You're hacking

our ability to have human attachments,

right? I mean this is the most important

thing to humans is to attach. We're

social creature and um these chatbots

are getting between people and

interposing themselves as the friend,

the therapist, the um and then you have

these people too. I mean the chatbots

are incredibly syopantic, right? They

tell you you're a genius.

>> Yeah, you're amazing. And there are

these there was a couple cases these

were kind of funny um of uh people who

were convinced they'd solve some giant

mathematical problem like how to

generate prime numbers up to the

millionth place or something like that

and um and they you know they started

writing to mathematicians we figured out

this problem you know they're not even

mathematicians and it was [ __ ] I

mean they hadn't figured anything out

but but it was I think chat PT4 which

was like famously sickopantic had

convinced them that they'd solve this

major problem.

>> So, you know, I think that um again,

we're squandering this precious gift and

and and and letting these uh

technologies um essentially colonize our

our consciousness. And so, the question

then becomes, how do we get it back?

How, you know, we need consciousness

hygiene, right? We need some uh you

know, ways to clear it out and uh and

reclaim it. And and you know it's some

of it's really simple like take a fast

from technology, right? You know, you

don't have to carry your phone

everywhere. We used I was thinking the

other day I was at the uh place in my

neighborhood getting a cup of coffee and

you know while you're waiting for the um

the barista to foam your drink or

whatever. We used to just sit there and

you know deal with 90 seconds of boredom

or two minutes of boredom and now we

don't. We can't we can't tolerate any

boredom and we take our phones out and

we scroll and um

>> but that boredom was generative, right?

If you sit doing nothing for long

enough,

>> your mind will start going to work and

you'll and you'll daydream. You'll have

a fantasy. You'll start observing the

other people around you, you know, and

and you'll be present to that place in

time. And now we're not. We just use the

phone to go somewhere else. And um so I

I just I don't know I've become a lot

more deliberate about consciousness

hygiene which you know you could a nicer

word would be care of the soul.

>> Yeah. No I think you're absolutely

accurate and I I think that um

>> the the other thing that's going on is

you're absorbing the opinions of so many

other people that you find it very

difficult to formulate your own which

leads to group think which is one of the

problems with echo chambers that people

find themselves. your algorithm is

essentially things that you're

interested in interacting with and a lot

of those things you're finding

like-minded people

>> and they're all agreeing that you know

this is amazing or this is a problem and

you sort of lock on to that and then you

you see what happens when people deviate

from that narrative and they get

attacked you don't want to get attacked

so you signal you're one of the good

guys

>> but you're not but it's not your

thoughts I mean you're you're you're

letting someone else uh think for you

And there's nothing worse. Um, and you

know, when you're scrolling, you're, you

know, you're, um, you've got these

little dopamine hits. Great. Um, but

that's someone else's rants, someone

else's obsessions, someone else's

ideology. And, um, uh, you know, I get

why people don't want to think for

themselves or it's easier to let other

people think for them, but, um, I think

we need to reclaim this. And I agree. I

think it's a it's it's part of our

political problem. Well, I know there's

a lightness that I achieve when I take,

you know, multiple days off. It's

generally like I feel it after the first

day and then the second day I feel much

better and the third day I feel even

better. I found this out once I broke my

phone in Hawaii

>> and it was kind of funny like it just

was randomly calling people. I dropped

it and uh I was I was showing my wife

like look at this just keeps calling

people. I hang up and I'm just holding

it. I hang up and it calls somebody

else. Hang up, call. It was like going

through my entire uh contact list and so

uh the phone was

>> annoying your friends.

>> It was no I just shut it off so it was

broken. I couldn't use it for anything

else. So I couldn't get email. I

couldn't get anything. So I shut it off.

I just left it in the hotel and then um

I had to order a phone and I was on Lai

and it took like three days to get a

phone delivered there. So for those

three days I was like why don't I just

live like this all the time? I feel so

much better. And then immediately I got

my phone check Twitter.

It's very I, you know, I when I I just

decide, you know, all right, I'm online,

>> you know, TSA line going to, you know,

I'm just going to be here with this

boredom.

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm not going to pull my phone out.

And you really have to fight.

>> Yes.

>> Uh it's it's such an instinct and it's

amazing. These things have only been

around for 10 or 12 years.

>> It's crazy. And everyone's attached to

it. I always say that if there was a

drug that made you stare at your hand

for 6 hours a day, it would be banned

immediately. people would be like, "What

the [ __ ] is wrong with these people?

They're just looking at their hand like

this is a epidemic."

>> And it's a new posture, too. We see it.

Right.

>> Right. Well, my one of my kids, I went

to pick her up at school and there was

this boy outside reading his phone that

he was hunched over and he was resting

his chin

>> like he couldn't even hold his head up.

He was just resting his chin on his

chest and staring at his phone waiting

for his parents to pick him up. I'm

like, "Look at his neck."

>> Yeah, I know. He's going to have a

>> osteoporosis.

bulging discs or something like like

>> it was just bizarre. I'm like that would

be painful for me to sit like that.

>> I wonder if orthopedists have diagnosed

any kind of like phone

>> Oh, they certainly have spine. Yeah,

they certainly have. Yeah, they there's

been discussions about that about people

having pains in their neck because

they're leaning over all day staring at

a phone.

>> It's a bad one.

>> I think being in nature, too, is another

way. I mean, just like

>> walking. Yeah. Wow. Um there's a there's

a um a scientist I interviewed who's

really interesting is a woman named Kina

Kristoff [ __ ] Levivia. She's Bulgarian

Canadian and she studies spontaneous

thought which I didn't even think was a

field and it's a small field but um

spontaneous thought is uh daydreaming,

mind wandering, fantasy, intuition,

these bolts from the blue that we get

occasionally. We don't know where they

come from. and she's uh and she says and

she does these cool experiments, you

know, she'll she'll put a experienced

meditator in an fMRI machine and tell

him or her to press a button when a

thought intrudes because even if you're

a good meditator, she says every 10

seconds a thought intrudes. And she'll

look at what part of the brain is

activated and when when when that when

the person presses the button. And one

of the things she's found and this is

mysterious is that um she sees activity

in the hippocampus which is where

memories are um and some other things

but uh essentially memories um 4 seconds

before the person realizes that thought

has come

>> into so it takes it takes 4 seconds for

a thought to get from the subconscious

you know or unconscious into our

conscious awareness. what is it doing

during that's that's a long time in

brain time and we don't know exactly but

there's some process and maybe there's

some inhibitory process that it has to

get through um in order to become

conscious. Um but anyway these are the

kind of things she works with but she

says that we have less there's less

spontaneous thought going on today than

there was 20 years ago and and the

reason is we're filling our our this the

space of our head with all this

nonsense. I wonder if it it's going to

have an impact on creative work. I

wonder and I don't know if it's even

possible to quantify this, but if you

could see how much creativity is

generated by people pre and post social

media. Yeah, my guess is there's less of

it because I do think that that process

I don't know about you, but I get ideas

when I'm just, you know, walking around

thinking and not online and um

>> it's a space of creativity and we're

shrinking it.

>> I used to tell you, I told you that I

used to drive uh and deliver newspapers.

We were talking about driving the snow.

Um one of my most creative periods was

when my radio was broken. So, I was just

driving doing this task where you pick

up a paper, fold it, put it in a plastic

bag, chuck it out the window. And I was

just doing this and checking off the

>> And when I was doing that, I would have

all my best ideas like cuz I wasn't

listening to, you know, morning radio. I

wasn't listening to a cassette on tape.

I was just

>> silence doing this thing. And then I was

so creative when I was doing that.

>> That's generative boredom.

>> Yes.

>> Um,

>> it's beneficial. It's hugely especially

if there's no one around you, right? Cuz

there's no one to talk to to alleviate

that boredom. It's just you and your

mind

>> and it was a couple hours a day. So a

couple hours every day I would have this

moment where I was by myself.

>> And were you writing jokes? What were

you doing?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I would come up with ideas

for jokes. Some of my best ideas I ever

came up with back then were from

driving.

>> Yeah.

>> I almost didn't want to quit the job

because of that.

>> Still be doing it.

>> No, it was hell cuz it was

>> especially in the winter.

>> Yeah. It was Boston. It was, you know,

I'd have to get up at 5:00 in the

morning every day. It was rough.

>> I find walking is where that happens to

me.

>> Same thing, right?

>> Um Yeah. And and actually uh Kina says,

I mean, there are people who studied uh

create creative people through history.

um you know people like Einstein and um

u Beethoven and all these you know major

creative people in the sciences and in

the arts and that they worked a short

day um but they spent a lot of time

walking

>> interesting

>> and uh yeah they'd worked like three or

four hours and which is about all I can

write in a day and then they'd take a

long walk in the afternoon they also

took a lot of vacations they had a lot

of unstructured time and that that's

where a lot of the creativity comes. It

doesn't always come when you're like at

the keyboard,

>> right?

>> It it sometimes comes I mean certainly

solving problems if I'm if I'm really

knotted up and I don't know for me

transitions like where do I go from here

since I'm not writing narrative it's not

always obvious um you know I need a

transition um and I don't know how to

execute that turn uh I'll take a walk

and very often it'll come to me or I'll

wake up with the answer. This episode is

brought to you by BetterHelp in honor of

International Women's Day. BetterHelp is

celebrating the women in your life. I

think we can all appreciate everything

the women in our lives have done for us

and everyone deserves a little

self-care. A good way to get that is

through therapy because not only is

therapy a time for you to focus on

yourself, it's also a way to create

balance and learn how to take care of

your needs in your daily life. and

Better Help as one of the largest online

therapy platforms makes it so easy to

meet with the right therapist. All you

need to do is fill out a short

questionnaire. You don't even need to go

into an office to meet them. You can

chat at home from your couch, in your

car, before you hit the gym, or while

you're walking your dog. Plus, if you

aren't jing with your first match, you

can switch to a different therapist

whenever you need. Your emotional

well-being matters. Find support and

feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get

10% off at betterhelp.comj.

That's betterhp.com/jre.

A lot of writers like to write first and

then walk and maybe even with a recorder

so they can just walk and just talk when

an idea pops in their head so they don't

lose it.

>> Yeah. I have a little pad I carry with

me.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> You like writing it down better than

recording it?

>> Yeah. for me. Yeah, I need to see it.

Um, so another interesting um experiment

I did uh for for this book was um this

beeper experiment. There was a there was

a um a scientist, a psychologist, the

University of uh Las Vegas. And for 50

years, he's been doing the same one

experiment, which is sampling people's

inner experience. And he does this. He

you have a beeper that you carry around

and a little earpiece and at random

times of the day you get and it's like

catches you and it's a very sudden rise

to this beep and you're and then you

have a little pad and you're supposed to

write down what you were thinking.

Sounds really simple. It's actually

really hard. I mean there's a lot of

issues with it like you start thinking

what if it goes off now

that's one problem but also you're a

little self-conscious. So, you do about

five beeps over the course of the day

and then he interviews you about your

about your these moments. Um, and you

think you've got it down. Like I just

give you a lot of my beeps were about

food. Um, and so I was um I was

seasoning a filt of salmon and walking

to the refrigerator with it and just at

the

I was thinking to myself, "Fuck, I

forgot the pepper."

I know my thoughts were not that

profound.

And so I said, "All right, pepper." It

was easy. [ __ ] pepper. Um, but then when

he came to interview me, he said, "Well,

did you hear the word pepper or did you

speak the word pepper?" And that that's,

you know, suddenly you realize those

voices in your head. You don't know if

you're listening or speaking. And so

anyway, you have this long interrogation

with him and he sorts through all these

things and he tries to get you to

isolate what was before what he would

call the footlights of consciousness.

And I found it really hard. I couldn't

separate a the thought the way he wanted

me to because it was there were always

several things going on at once. Like I

was standing in a in a bakery

and I was deciding whether to buy a roll

or not. Another profound thought. And um

uh but at the same time I was like

smelling the baked goods and the cheeses

that they sold and this woman had this

horrible plaid on her skirt that was

like you know really unflattering and

and I was hearing people you know behind

me talking and so I couldn't pull pull

all the threads and and we argued a lot

actually. Um but the the thing he's dis

I said so after 50 years what have you

learned about human thought and um he's

very allergic to theory. He he he still

has no theories about it. But he he did

say well a lot of people think they're

verbal thinkers that that their thoughts

are in the form of words. But it turns

out that's kind of a minority. um that

there are a lot of people who think in

images and then there are a lot of

people who think in unsymbolized thought

which I don't totally understand but

these are thoughts that are neither

words or images. I do have a sense in my

own thought process which I'd never

thought about this way that um a lot of

my thoughts are just on the verge of

being word thoughts but I haven't found

the words yet but I know the thought

even though I haven't put it into words

and um uh William James called it

premonetary thinking premonition

thinking it was the term he used um so

anyway so We so I did this for several

days and we had many arguments and I was

saying look you can't separate a thought

every thought colors the next thought

and um there you know there are these a

thought and you never have anyway we

just would go back and forth and I was

arguing why you can't separate thoughts

it's a stream it's very dynamic stream

and at the end we had a final session um

and he's he's a very funny guy uh he's

really allergic to theories he at one

point I said I was writing a book on

consciousness and he said good luck with

that

very encouraging anyway um he said well

he described there these verbal thinkers

and visual thinkers and unsyvilized

thinkers and I find that really

interesting because we assume when we

say the word what are you thinking that

we know and that you're thinking the way

I'm thinking but it turns out we're not

we that's just an umbrella word for many

different styles of thinking

>> and and we're really different. Um, so

that was one thing, but the other thing

he said in our last meeting on Zoom, he

said, um, there's also a small subset of

people who just have very little inner

life,

>> and you're one of them.

>> And I was like, what? You know, I write

books, you know, I I meditate, I

ruminate. I mean,

>> how can he make that distinction,

though? How does he know what's going on

inside your head? He felt that my

inability to isolate a thought

was evidence that there weren't thoughts

and that I was kind of backfilling with

all this other, you know, simultaneous

stuff going on. I mean, I I didn't agree

with him. I thought it was kind of

crazy. Um, but that's that's

>> Have you asked him Have you

conversations with him about other

things? See how he thinks?

>> No, he's very much in the therapist mode

like he's asking the questions. Yeah,

I'd like to know like how he thinks if

that's

>> what his mode is.

>> Yeah, I'd like to talk to

>> now. He would probably to say that. Um

anyway, he's posted all these

conversations on his website, so if

people really want to be bored, they can

check them out.

>> That's a weird thing to say that you

know, especially someone like you who

writes and does think a lot and clearly

is is got some sort of dialogue going on

in your head. The idea that you don't

and this guy can say that.

>> I know

>> that seems a little arrogant.

>> Yeah. I think I just didn't fit his

template of like how people think.

>> Yeah. Well, that's why you should get a

better therapist. You move around.

>> All right. Find somebody else.

>> Good advice.

>> I mean, it seems like that's a very

narrow mind. I I couldn't imagine saying

to anyone regardless

>> very little in her life.

>> Yeah. Well, regardless of what kind of,

you know, theory I'm following or, you

know, what school of thought, I don't

know what's going on in your head. I

can't. It's not possible.

>> No. And that that's it. There's a

William James said this, the great, you

know, founder of American psychology,

that the breach between two

consciousnesses is one of the biggest

breaches in nature.

>> Yes.

>> And we, you know, I don't know your

conscious for a fact. Um, I assume it

because your behaviors mesh and we're

the same species and we have theory of

mind. We can imagine our way into

someone else's head, but it's a guess.

It's a guess. And uh, so there's I mean,

that's part of the mystery.

>> Well, it's one of the things that I do

when I'm talking to people. I I try to

imagine Well, I've I'm so fortunate that

I've been able to have so many

conversations with so many different

people, so many different ways that

people view the world. And when I'm

talking to someone, particularly if

they're very different from me or anyone

I know, I always try to put myself in

their head

>> and I after they talk for 15 or 20

minutes, I I try to like recognize like

how they approach things and see if and

I'm like what is that what's that world

like? Like this person's perspect

especially.

>> So you're operating on two tracks.

>> I mean you're you're holding the

conversation.

>> Yeah. But you're also thinking,

>> I'm trying to tune in. Yeah. Right. I'm

trying to because I I always feel like

when someone is like a great

performance, like a great comedian or a

great musician, one of the things that

they're doing is they're bringing you

into their head. Y

>> like there's a there's a hypnosis. When

someone sings an amazing song and the

whole crowd is singing along, there's

there's a hypnotic element to that

>> where when someone's like really killing

it on stage and their voice is just

perfect. It's like, oh yeah, like you're

in their head. Like it's

>> it's a it's a it's a mind melt.

>> It's a Yeah, it is a mind melt. And

there's a little bit of that that goes

on in conversations. There's a mind

melt. And I

>> always try es especially if there's a

rational person. I always try to put

myself in their head or at least

>> empty out mine. Yeah.

>> And let them think and then try to just

keep the conversation rolling with just

pure curiosity.

>> Yeah. But always, you know, try to

think, I don't think the same way other

people do, and maybe maybe I can learn

something from this. Maybe I can get

something out of the way they think.

>> Seems to me you're you're you have a

real gift of curiosity.

Um I mean, that's a it's a big gift. I

mean, you're intensely curious person.

>> Well, I've always been that way, but

I've been very fortunate that I've had

something like this that allowed me to

feed it. Yeah. You know, I mean, the the

vast majority of time on my phone, I

just pursue curiosities. I don't I

really am mostly about social media.

Yeah. I watch interesting YouTube

videos. Like I I went down a black hole

rabbit hole last night.

>> Oh my god. You want to really break your

brain? There was a there's a video of

Brian Cox where he's talking about this

black hole that they found that's bigger

than our entire solar system.

>> Wow. it the event horizon extends far

beyond Pluto.

>> That's that is mind-blowing.

>> Yeah, it when he was descri he said we

don't understand why it exists. We don't

understand how it could have formed so

early in the universe but yet there it

is.

>> How do they measure it? How do they know

how big it is?

>> I have no idea. I don't know. I'm

assuming there's a lot of revelations

that have come out uh since the

implementation of the James Webb

telescope.

>> Yeah. Those images are incredible.

>> Insane.

>> Yeah.

>> Insane. And this is one that's causing

this very interesting um new uh theory

or perspective on the age of the

universe. So, there's some galaxies that

they found that shouldn't have

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've read about this

that it's it's it's throwing all their

assumptions about the age of the

universe up for grabs.

>> Which makes sense because the further

you can look back, the more you're going

to be able to see the assumption that

the universe was 13.7 billion years old

was essentially based on how far we can

look back. Yeah. And then, you know, the

analysis of the the radio waves that are

coming from the supposed explosion.

>> And then you've got guys like Sir Roger

Penrose who say, "No, this is a constant

cycle. It's not one birth of the

universe. It's it's boom smash boom

smash forever.

>> It's an accordion

>> and it's always happened which is the

ultimate mind [ __ ]

>> Well, you know the interesting thing

about astronomy actually astronomy and

consciousness studies have the same

problem which is

you can't get out of consciousness to

study it from a distance. Right?

Everything every tool you have to study

consciousness is a product of

consciousness including science. The

scientific enterprise is a manifestation

of human consciousness. The the the the

problems you decide to study, the the

tools you have to do it with, the scale

at which you're working, it's all like a

product of consciousness. Astronomy too

has to is trying to understand something

it can't get outside of, right? I mean,

because its subject is everything that

there is, the universe. So you can do

interesting things from inside using

telescopes and you know you can figure

out how old things are and and rates of

expansion and all this kind of stuff but

you you can never get that godlike

perspective that we have with other

scientific problems. And this is I think

part of the reason we haven't solved the

the consciousness problem that we can't

get outside. We're it's in we're in a

labyrinth and everything everything we

know is consciousness. I mean, which is

a very weird idea. I remember asking uh

Kristoff Ko, the scientist I mentioned

earlier. I said, "Well, what would the

world be like without any

consciousness?" And that is a trippy

thought. Um because everything we

perceive is, you know, the scale of

things like we we we operate at this

scale, right? We're like five or six

feet tall. Um, we have bodies like this,

but there's another world going on

microscopically and there's another

world going on macroscopically. So, if

there's no consciousness, what's the

proper scale? There isn't any. And when

I asked him this question, he said,

"Particles and waves. That's all there

is. There' be nothing but particles and

waves. There might not even be

spaceime." That may be a product of

consciousness also. So, that was um kind

of mind-blowing to learn.

>> That's the weirdest perspective. is that

consciousness is a part of reality. That

it is how reality is formed and that

without consciousness and the perceiving

of all this stuff doesn't exist.

>> Something exists but it's not it has no

shape. It has no scale. It has no

>> right

>> uh

>> because consciousness is what's

perceiving light and we're perceiving

colors and

>> and it's constructing

>> but it really is just particles.

>> Yeah. and waves and

>> waves and particles and atoms and

subatomic particles and when you get

into the weirder stuff

>> and we give it order

>> right

>> I know which I you know it's just a

mind-blowing idea and

>> it it's a it really is a gamecher

because if you think about it that way

you go okay well what is all this solid

stuff

>> what is this like does this even really

exist or does it only

>> this table this there's a famous uh

Arthur Edington was a physicist early in

the 20th century And he said the real

table is mostly space

and only in our consciousness and at our

scale is it solid. And um but at the

scale of particle physics which is

equally legitimate scale, it's just wide

open space

>> um with these waves and particles but a

lot of emptiness. Um that was kind of

mind-blowing too. So,

>> but that's just such an abstract concept

for a person in their car right now

listening on the way to work. Like, what

the [ __ ] are you talking about?

>> Maybe they want to pull over.

>> All this stuff is real.

>> Yeah,

>> it is sort of, but only if you're

conscious.

>> Well, you could think of consciousness

as the way the universe

>> experiences itself.

>> Yeah. And um

>> Well, that's what really we're like what

if the universe is consciousness?

>> Yeah. I mean, that's another way to look

at it. Maybe consciousness is part of

the universe and and but it's not giving

it the order that we give it. Um you

know we see at a certain spectrum of

light. There's you know bees see it

another spectrum of light. You know

we're we are the world we behold the

world that appears to us is the world

that our senses allow us to see. When I

was doing this research on plant

intelligence they have 20 senses. We

only have five. They're picking up

magnetic fields. They're picking up pH.

They're picking up uh nitrogen levels.

You know, they have all these

>> How do we know all this?

>> Um they're researchers working on it.

There's a group of botonists who call

themselves plant neurobiologists

knowing full well there are no neurons

in plants. They're kind of trolling more

conventional botists and they're doing

these cool experiments with with plants.

Um a couple examples of of some of these

amazing things plants can do, they can

hear. Uh, so if you play a recording of

a caterpillar munching on leaves,

they'll react and they'll send chemicals

into their leaves to make them taste bad

or be toxic.

>> Yeah,

>> they can see. There are um there are

vines that change their the shape of

their leaves depending on the plant

they're twining up in order to be

hidden. How do they see the shape and to

imitate it? We don't know. They um

plants will um go toward a pipe with

water in it because they can hear the

water even though it's totally dry and

they'll send their um their roots down

to it.

>> They can hear the water.

>> They can hear Yeah.

>> There there's a this plant

neurobiologist showed me this a couple

videos he'd made. I actually just posted

them on my website. Um uh he he showed

that a uh a corn plant's roots can

navigate a maze to get to fertilizer.

>> So you put a little fertilizer in a

corner and the root will find the most

direct route to the nitrogen.

>> There was a uh plumbing problem that I

had in my house in California and um uh

the plumber couldn't figure out what was

wrong. It was like the the the pipes

were stuck. And what what had happened

was in the backyard, one of the trees,

the roots had gotten into the pipe and

formed like this tree.

>> I mean, it was huge. It looked like when

I pulled it, I put it up on my

Instagram. See if you can find it. It's

It looked like a muskrat.

>> I mean, it was like dense with roots and

it was thick. It was like three feet

long. It was That's it.

>> That was in my pipe.

>> Oh my god.

>> Ain't that crazy?

>> Yeah. What kind of tree was it?

>> I don't know. I think it was an oak tree

cuz there was oak trees, excuse me, in

the backyard where they dug up.

>> That's wild.

>> But look how thick it is.

>> Yeah.

>> It's crazy. It's And it went through a

tiny little crack.

>> Yeah.

>> It I mean it probably forced the crack

open and then went in there and just

really grew out.

>> Yeah. Well, it had a source of water.

>> Yeah. But it's just kind of bananas that

somehow or another it figured out that

there was water in that pipe.

>> You know, we underestimate plants

basically because we can't see their

behaviors. And and then going to that

point about scale. They have a they

operate at a a time scale that seems

very slow to us, so we don't notice. But

if you use time-lapse photography, you

see what they're up to, and it's it's

pretty amazing. Another another

interesting um video that this guy

showed me, his name is Stephano Manuso.

He's an Italian scientist, botonist, is