- The Viking longships could average 70 to 120 miles a day.

They could hit a place, raid it, drag off whoever they

wanted, and get away before you could get your army there.

That's just absolutely terrifying.

- What do you think it felt like for Alcuin and the

monks to see the Viking ships on the horizon?

- Honestly, I think it's the end of the world, and I don't think they were wrong to think

that. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle says the night before

Lindisfarne, the monks saw sheets of lightning in the sky in the

shape of dragons, and this obviously meant to foreshadow the dragon

ships coming up. But if you were brave, then you got

taken to the House of the Dead, which was Valhalla. Every day you would

fight, and whatever wounds you got would be magically healed that night, and then the

next morning, you'd get up and do it again, so you're essentially practicing for

Ragnarok, the final battle. You know, there's this poem

by Tennyson, Ulysses, my favorite poem. I think it

captures the Viking spirit. The last line of it is to strive, "To seek, to

find, and not to yield." I think that's very much like the Viking,

you know, my purpose holds, to sail beyond the baths of all the Western stars until I die.

We may die, but I'm gonna do this, I'm not gonna yield.

- The following is a conversation with Lars Brownworth, a

historian and author of many excellent history books, including The

Sea Wolves: A History of the Vikings and The Normans: From Raiders to Kings.

He's also the host of two history podcast series. The

first called 12 Byzantine Rulers: The History

of the Byzantine Empire is one of the first, if not

the first ever, history podcasts launched over 20

years ago in June, 2005. His second

series, Norman Centuries, explores the remarkable

rise of the Normans from Viking raiders to the rulers of

kingdoms stretching from England to Sicily.

In this conversation, we focus primarily on the Vikings, the

seafaring Norse warriors and explorers who, over a

period of just 300 years, reshaped the medieval

world and the trajectory of Western civilization as we know it.

This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors

in the description where you can also find links to contact

me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.

And now, dear friends, here's Lars Brownworth.

Your writing and podcasts take us from the Vikings to the Normans to Crusades,

to the collapse of the East Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire.

There's a thread, I think, that connects the Vikings through all of it, so let's

start at the beginning. Let's start with the Vikings.

So the age of the Vikings was intense and violent,

as you write about, often dated from 793 AD to 1066 AD.

It lasted less than three centuries. So the start is often dated to June 8th,

793. What happened on June 8th, 793?

- In June of 793, a group of Vikings, probably originating from Norway, arrived

at the Holy Island of Lindisfarne, which was a monastic community, and they

essentially slaughtered everyone, burned a couple of buildings and

grabbed everything that had any value and left. And that was the

first Viking raid that came in force. And I do

think Lindisfarne is a good beginning date because the terror that

it brought really signified what was to come for the next two to three centuries.

- So the word of it has spread.

Like there's a bunch of accounts, like the monk Alcuin wrote about this

event in a letter to King Ethelred of Northumbria, quote, "It is nearly 350

years that we and our fathers have inhabited this most

lovely land, and never before has such terror

appeared in Britain as we have now suffered from a pagan

race, nor was it thought that such an inroad from the sea could be made."

What made this race so psychologically devastating to this monk and to the

many other monks on the island and then to all of Britain?

- That's a great quote. Um, Alcuin was not just a

regular scholar, he was Charlemagne's favorite scholar

and he's largely responsible, as much as one person can be, for the

Carolingian Renaissance that had done so much to elevate the early medieval world.

In fact, the spaces we have, the punctuation we have, spaces

between words are likely a result of Alcuin's

work. He was an extremely literate man, and you can hear the terror

creeping into that. Um, and part of that has to do with monastic

communities, the Church and the- what they

thought a monastic community was. So the Church was viewed as a sacred

place. Everyone in Europe, everyone in quotes, is

nominally Christian, and the Church is an area of safety. It's a

literal ark from the troubles of the world that you can flee to. I believe

there are even rules in England, for example, that if you had killed

someone, you could flee to a church and the civil authorities were

not allowed to enter for up to 40 days. So you could have sanctuary

there. And to violate this would've been the worst

possible offense you could have given, which is why, you know, Thomas

Becket's murder is so, so horrible in England. And the

monks had dedicated themselves to a life of studying the Bible,

to copying scriptures to prayer, to removing themselves

literally from the temptations of the world. And so they would seek

monasteries that were remote, and the most remote locations you could

find were islands in the North Atlantic, because it's just so

difficult to get there.... So the ocean was considered a place of

safety. Not sailing on the ocean, but these islands were

literal havens of peace and security and closeness to God.

And so the fact that the Vikings hit this place of all places you could hit was

the worst, the most terrifying kind of offense against medieval sensibilities.

- So there's a kind of line that you understand you don't cross. Like, everybody

agrees.

- That's right.

- It's the kind of thing that there's a social contract that most societies, most civilizations

sign. There's a line that we don't cross. Let the scholars

do their scholarly work. That's one line. The other

line is more kind of from a military perspective, from a,

Mobility perspective, you just assume the sea is not a

place from which a threat could come-

- Yeah, that's exactly right

- ... especially the north. So your conception of the world is shattered

by, one, the brutality that can come, two, that

the sea can bring a threat, and three, that you don't give a

damn about any of the lines that we as a society, as a Christian

society, have established.

- That's exactly right. I mean, even Alcuin, I think he writes a little later on that

the dead were left as dung in the streets. So he's describing dead monks as

literal dung in the streets. And, you know, who would do this to men of God?

Inhuman monsters.

- So who were they, the Vikings, coming from the north? How did they think

of the violence that they were doing?

- Now, that's a very good question because... and it brings up a central problem,

of looking at the Vikings, which is the story is almost always told from

somebody else's perspective largely from the pens of those they're attacking.

So they're not gonna come across well. Um, they're often portrayed as demonic and

inhuman. The Vikings themselves though, as much as we can piece

together from archeology, from the stories they wrote

later but that was another problem there, the written alphabet, the runes.

It was mostly used for spells, naming your sword, things like that, cursing

someone, but it wasn't really useful for writing long poetry or literature. So the

only Norse literature we have comes at the end of the age when they had

adopted the Latin alphabet.

So it's... you can almost never see the Vikings in their own words as they

saw themselves. But we can piece certain things together. Most importantly,

Viking was not their day job. They were

were mostly merchants and farmers, mostly farmers who lived

in little bays called Viks in Old Norse, which is probably

where we get the word Viking from. Um,

one other note about how hard it is to- to tease apart what's happening here is the-

the English and the Frankish and the Irish writers all

call them Danes, no matter where they came from. They didn't stop to ask, "Now, excuse me,

are you from Norway, or are you from..." So they're all called Danes or

Pagans, heathen, or Northmen. Um,

so this is not very helpful in figuring out where they came from.

Um, the language was interchangeable. You know, Old Norse was spoken in all three of

those Scandinavian countries. But

living in the north, so far up near the Arctic Circle,

is... that's at the very limit of where technology of the time could allow humans to survive.

And that kinda, that kinda harsh climate bred, I think, very

hard people. Mercy was not a quality they seemed to

favor, value. There's a very famous story of a Swedish

Viking putting a sword in the crib of his newborn

son, and saying, "May you have nothing in this life but what you can gain with this."

I mean, I can't imagine doing that.

You know, to any of my children, you know, putting a gun in the crib, or-

... you know, I'd be carted away. But the... I think that kind of

underscores the kind of violent life that was... you could

expect as a Viking. I mean, strength was valued more than anything else.

- So the understanding of the world is harsh,

and that strength is the way you must face that

world. So when you have those people, and especially the ones that self-select

to get on a boat, to face the ocean with all the uncertainty,

that results in the kind of brutality that we got to see.

- I think so. I mean, the way they would build their ships, they were clinker built, so they were

overlaid, like planks overlaying. So they were undecked as

well. And so they'd have tents. So can you imagine crossing the Atlantic,

the northern Atlantic, you know, with these huge waves splashing

over with an inch of oak between you and the ocean?

I mean, the amount of bravery that must have taken to undergo is

astounding. Plus they didn't have a compass. They navigated by,

"Where's the sun? Where are the stars? What... are there birds in the sky? Do

I see a different color of water? Do I see leaves floating?" I mean, it's terrible.

If you're traveling 2,000 miles, that's not great.

So it's kind of an intrepidness to them that

I think is part of the reason why they're so fascinating to us in our sanitized,

more or less sanitized world. That this incredible courage to do this,

and some horror at what they did on the other end when they arrived.

But, you know, we'll talk a little bit more about their religion, but they-

they do not view the Christian God

in particularly flattering terms. I mean, to them, he's a weak

God who won't protect his adherence, and they can just come in and plunder as

they... I mean, they'll... One Viking famously says, "On land, I'm a Christian.

When I'm on the sea, I worship Thor."

It was very much the kind of pragmatic take that the Vikings had.

- Yeah. There are gods, and they have many, but Odin and Thor are

pretty hardcore gods. So everything, just

their whole philosophy on life is pretty- pretty hardcore.

Probably some of the toughest humans to have ever lived.

- I think so. Yeah. I mean, their gods are horrifying. They're

polytheistic. There was no universally accepted, Head god.

I think Marvel has also led people astray in this.

- Well, we'll talk more about,

religion, but since you mentioned the boats, what- what do we understand about the technology that they

were using? Can you just speak a little bit more to this one inch of oak

idea? So, these were these long ships that,

Were also able to travel on rivers. So they're

not... Like, what- what is structurally, do we know about the boats that

allowed them to be so flexible in terms of where they can travel?

- Yeah. I mean, and this was the Vikings' great secret, and I think it's

underappreciated. They built different types of ships, obviously for different

purposes, but the thing that blows my mind is that they

built these ships that could cross an ocean, cross the Atlantic

Ocean, and at the same time, when they had a

draft of less than two feet, so they could sail up

rivers that were two feet deep. And if they came to an, you know, a

block or something, 20 men could pick up the ship and port it around. They were

incredibly portable and their speed, the speed was the

most frightening thing about the Vikings.

- So the... These are the same kind of ship that they sailed the ocean on.

- Yeah. I mean, it's insane.

- So they're pretty sufficiently robust to handle the ocean and sufficiently

mobile to travel on rivers and do so really fast, so-

... you mentioned speed. That seems to be,

from a military perspective, the great advantage of the Vikings-

... because they can move much faster than the land armies can.

So, and not just the element of surprise, which they often had, but the

element of speed was the thing that gave them such an extreme advantage

against the British armies.

- That was the big one. So, an English army, if it had

access to a good Roman road that was well maintained, which frankly there weren't tons

of them, but they could average something like 10 to 15 miles per day-

... on a good day, if they didn't have a large baggage train to slow them down. If you had a

cavalry unit that didn't have to travel with the army, they could

average about 20 miles a day. The Viking long ships could average

70 to 120 miles a day. So, they're just moving in

super fast motion. They could hit a place, raid it,

drag off whoever they wanted, and get away before you could get your army there.

That's just absolutely terrifying.

- What do you think it felt like for Alcuin

and the monks to see the Viking ships on the horizon?

Do you ever think about trying to put yourself in the mind of those folks

and imagining...

In that time, you don't have a full map of the world, right? And the

oceans are not mapped, and you have

a hazy conception of the world. And so out of the darkness from the

ocean where you thought nothing can come, comes this terrifying, this brutal force.

What do you think that felt like?

- Honestly, I think it's the end of the world, and I don't think

that's... I don't think they were wrong to think that. The Anglo-Saxon

Chronicle says the night before Lindisfarne, the

monks saw sheets of lightning in the sky in the shape of dragons. And this

obviously meant to, you know, foreshadow the dragon ships coming up.

I can't imagine the horror. It would shake my faith, I'm sure, to have these-

these giant men jumping out of their ships with swords raised. And you're... What

do you have? Your cross?

- Were the Vikings aware of the fear that they had caused?

So, did they use fear as a kind of weapon, or was this just a

side consequence of their actions, or did they understand and

use it? Like the Mongols, Genghis Khan, the Mongols used the fear and the

terror on purpose-

... to increase the chance that they wouldn't have to avoid fights, basically.

- Yeah, yeah. The Vikings absolutely used terror. It was a main

weapon in their arsenal. They would attack

specifically on high holy days like Easter, Christmas,

because they knew there'd be higher value targets there with richer clothing, richer

offerings. There'd be a lot of money available. So they were rather

sophisticated, which I think is something also that they don't get much

credit for. It's like they were just dumb brutes attacking and just

destroying. But they were... It was very sophisticated. They would show up.

That's what I mean when I say Viking wasn't their day jobs. They would be

traders in say an English port, kind of looking

around. They'd get everyone's schedule, then they would sail away and

come back as Vikings, and they knew exactly where to go. They knew where all the

money was held. They knew where all the, you know, the churches were, when to

attack. They knew the entire Christian calendar. They knew when someone's

baptism was, when someone's confirmation. I mean, they were aware of all of this.

And they would... They would definitely attack to increase terror.

- One of the signs of the intelligence

of the Vikings is that the Viking Age is so short.

So what happens is these explorers and these Rough men who do the raids, they

very quickly are good at conquering and then start state

building, or conquering and then establishing trade

routes and stop being the quote, unquote, "Vikings." So

basically, they just... They conquer, and then they start doing

the usual instit- build the institutions, start a state,

and now they're normal kind of nation,

civilization kind of thing. So this kind of force that is

the conquering, raid, violent, intense explorers, it's like a

short-lasting thing, a couple of generations at most.

- Yeah, that's right. I mean, the Vikings were ultimately a pragmatic

people who, if it worked, they would keep it,

which is frustrating because they disappear so quickly because of that.

- With very little trace in the records-

- With very little trace. That's right.

- ... with very little writing.

- That's right.

- No time for writing it down.

- No. Yes. Not doing that.

- Yeah. Why were monasteries such good targets for these early raids?

- This is where I imagine myself as a Viking and one of my ancestors perhaps.

And sailing in... I mean, they must have thought they had won the lottery.

You got this rich, these rich buildings, rich gold everywhere.

Decorated books, jewels, all guarded by old men who

don't know how to fight. You just take it.

- I mean, we should make clear that the monasteries had... They were used as almost like

storage for gold.

- Yeah. And this goes all the way back to, you know, the Roman Empire where, you know,

think of, for example, the Emperor Augustus. When he was writing his will, he put it in

the Temple of the Vestal Virgins as well as Mark Antony and

Cleopatra. They'd all done that because there's this

additional protection of religion-

... and this taboo against violating that. And the same thing happened

when Europe was Christianized. Monasteries were... I mean, rich people,

their faith had to be an active faith. They couldn't just say their

prayers and go to church on Sunday. They would have to do something to publicly

show that they were, you know, worthy of forgiveness or, or whatever.

And so they would donate huge sums to the church. I

think, you know, by the time of the French Revolution, which is obviously way in the future,

the Church is the largest single landowner in France. I mean, the monasteries

where... These, these monasteries filled with monks who had taken vows of poverty

were some of the richest places in Europe. It's kind of a strange dichotomy here.

- And then we should also say that the Vikings, many of them pragmatic people, so a

lot of them would eventually then convert to Christianity, so you get-

- That's right

- ... you integrate yourself into the system.

- That's right.

- In some sense, religion

creates this backbone of a society that stabilizes it, and then you create a

bunch of rules about behavior, how you're supposed to behave. One of the rules

is you don't mess with the church buildings and-

- That's right

- ... the religious-

... institutions and therefore they become great storage places for gold.

- That's right.

- And then the Vikings here just test the system.

Uh, I mean, it's the fortune of geography for them

and the fortune of their way of life,

To be able to raid, to become extremely rich and therefore this... It

both spreads the terror across England,

and the message across Scandinavia that there's a lot

of riches to be had. And so the raids, that's why there's an explosion of raids.

- That's right. And I think it's not a coincidence that it happens when it

does. I mean, you have both... So there's two main theories about why the Viking Age starts.

The first, Will Durant puts it, I think, the best. He says, "The fertility of the

Viking women outstripped the fertility of the Viking land." It's

basically overpopulation.

Um, and then they're searching for food. And then the second

is there's this technological breakthrough with the keel and maybe pressure

put on Charlemagne's consolidation and a little worries like that.

I don't see why both can't be true but I do,

I do also think Europe... Like, Charlemagne puts together this vast empire that,

you know, fairly approximates the Western Roman Empire. If you squint-

... it looks like the Western Roman Empire. He's calling himself,

The new Roman emperor. This will eventually

mutate into the Holy Roman Empire. But it's very

much this idea that it's back. The Roman Empire is back.

He's crowned on Christmas Day in the year 800, and the empire is

back. Unfortunately, it was sprawling. It hadn't been thought through. There was...

The communication was terrible. You just couldn't do it. And so it

was wealthy and weak, and that kind of attracts predators.

By the time the Vikings crash into it, you also have the added bonus for them of

really feckless rulers.

- And we should say, going to Perplexity here, that Charlemagne, also known as

Charles the Great, is the Frankish king who became

emperor in 800 and ruled much of the Western and Central

Europe in the late eighth and early ninth centuries. And,

There's a theory that the Viking Age was also a

reaction to the South expanding north, as you're talking about.

You tell the story of Charlemagne weeping because he foresaw the

evil his descendants would suffer. Did the

Franks accidentally wake the sleeping giant by crushing the Saxons and removing

the buffer zone between them and the Vikings?

- I'm sure that had something to do with it. But yeah, as power was

consolidated throughout specifically Central Europe it did put a little

pressure on the areas of Denmark. And those are the areas that first kind of

erupt down toward,

um... Norway and Denmark contribute most of the early Vikings that

hit the Franks. And the Frankish Empire

is the most wealthy state in Europe. It's poured money

into religious houses for the reasons you

outlined. And all sitting there, easy pickings for people who've just

developed the keel.

- And so the word of the raids sent terror through,

through England and through Europe.

How much of the raids were reconnaissance, and how

much was it just raids, and how much was it preparing for greater scale?

- That's a good... That's a really good question. I think a lot

of the early raids are probing raids, to see what's there.

Um, definitely when Ragnar Lothbrok, for example, sacks Paris in 845,

that definitely results in waves of Viking attacks throughout the 860s,

trying to copy that. And he actually is the template which

everyone wants to follow. And so that provokes large-scale

invasions. And they hit England. They kind of

switch off. When France is pretty much exhausted, they switch over to England, and then when

England is pretty much conquered, they switch back to France.

So I think a lot of these are just probing raids at first, but they're proof of

concept and then they come in force. For example, there was one

king in England, his name was Ethelred the Unready, which is a

pretty funny... Pun on his name. But he paid, in one year,

7.5 million silver pennies to the Vikings to get them to go away, which

is a bit like someone's mugging you, so you pay them more money so they'll go away.

It's-

- That's not gonna work, is it?

- It's not gonna work, but it will bring more muggers. Um, so

he paid the equivalent of 50 adult elephants, 48,000 pounds of silver,

to get the muggers to go away. And it's unsurprising that throughout the

course of his reign, he paid something like

20 tons of gold and silver, which he had to tax his people for.

- Um, yeah, the Vikings are not the kind of people that would make go away, right?

- Nope. That's not gonna happen.

- Yeah, they would just come back in force.

- Yeah, they trust silver to do the work of swords.

- Uh, you mentioned Ragnar Lothbrok. Who was Ragnar Lothbrok? Did he actually exist?

Some people believe he's a composite from several real ninth century

Viking leaders, versus an actual singular human.

- Yeah, I'm a romantic. I would like to believe he existed. Um, I

think probably he's a compilation of a lot

of different... There probably is a seed of

truth there. There probably was someone named Ragnar.

The last name's a little suspicious. Lothbrok means hairy

breeches. He supposedly had magic pants that would prevent him from being poisoned

by dragons or snakes. That's maybe a clue. We're dealing with myth here. But he

is really the template for Vikings. You want to figure out, like, what the Vikings

wanted, who's their success story, it's Ragnar Lothbrok. He's born Norway,

Denmark, countries argue over that. Maybe Sweden. Some sagas say he's in Uppsala.

Anyway, he is, you know, penniless, and when he is

in his late teens or early 20s, he decides to invade, sail up the Seine. Uh,

there is a well-known city on the Seine and he raids it.

Supposedly, he takes the hinge of one of the gates from Paris to

prove that he's been there. The- the

Frankish king, I love the Frankish kings because they-

their citizens give them names based on how much they hate them.

So you have- you have Charles the Great, right? Charles the Great, Charlemagne.

He's followed by Louis the Pious. That's probably the best one.

And Louis the Pious is followed by Charles the Fat-

... who's followed by Charles the Bald-

... who's followed by Charles the Simple or Stupid.

- Nice. So you can trust the names-

- You can trust—

- to give you the TLDR of how good of a ruler they were.

- Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

- So Charles the Great, widely acknowledged as sort of one of

the great leaders of the Frankish Empire- ... aka Charlemagne.

Uh, so what else do we know about him? So, there's

going to Perplexity, "Ragnar's portrayed as a Scandinavian warlord, often

called a Danish or Swedish king," like you mentioned.

Uh, "Active in the ninth century during the height of the Viking raids."

And then descriptions of the raids and the exploits.

"Medieval traditions link Ragnar to famous raids on the Frankish realms,

especially the attack on Paris in 845, where he

reputedly sails up the Seine and extorts a huge ransom from King Charles the

Bald." He's also associated with repeated attacks on

Anglo-Saxon England, embodying the archetypal Viking

chieftain, charismatic, brutal, and focused on wealth, fame, and honor in battle.

So that, those are the ideals of the Vikings. Charisma, brutality-

... and focusing on wealth, fame, and honor, especially honor in battle.

- Then also,

what does he do with it, right? What does he do with it? So, he gets about 7,000 pounds of

silver from Charles the Bald, which destroys, essentially destroys Charles the Bald's

kingship. But he goes back home to

Denmark, and the Danish king doesn't want him around,

because he's too powerful, he's too rich. He's a ring

giver. You know, think Beowulf here, right? He's got this

large personal army which wants to join him for ad- he can do, you

know, they'll follow him, and he is a threat, and so he kind of is

encouraged to go elsewhere. He ends up raiding England for something like

15 years, and then there's a,

probably the most famous bit of the story is he's shipwrecked, and King

Aella of Northumberland captures him and decides to

kill him by throwing him into a pit with vipers.

They throw him in this and the snakes are biting him, but he's got his hairy breeches on, so

it's not working. So, he's singing a hymn to Odin

and he gets pulled out and he's asked why he's not dying

and he explains, rather foolishly, that he has these hairy breeches. So, they take the

pants off and throw him back, and his last words are,

um, "When the boar bleats, the piglets come."... by which

he means, "My s- I have sons," he had 12 of them, "and they

will avenge me." And they do, they lead the the Great

Heathen Army to invade and eventually conquer

England. Aella, fun fact, not so fun for him,

is the, supposedly was captured by the son of Ragnar, his

name is Ivar the Boneless, which is somewhat terrifying of a name. And he is,

he's the first person that a blood eagle was performed on.

- What's the blood eagle?

- It's when they remove the lungs, they, while you're still alive, they cut you

open and remove the lungs and put the lungs on your back.

And then when you try to breathe, they flutter like wings, so it's called, like

an eagle. It's called the blood eagle.

- That is horrible.

- It's disgusting, yes. And this is what Aella, you know, deserves,

according to, you know, Bjorn Ironside and Ivar the

Boneless, the sons of Ragnar. Like, this is what they get.

- Offense.

- This is the piglets coming-

... to their own boar, you know? One last thing about Ragnar,

is his wife is also an important part. He had

something like 12 sons, the accounts differ, and probably

three marriages. But his most famous wife was named Aslaug,

and she fell in love with him. He was on a ship, he was passing through, so-

... kind of a glamorous sea king, right? With his, he's living the

dream. And she sees him and she wants to be married to him, and he says no.

He says, 'cause he wants a clever wife, and so he says, "If you can

accomplish these three things, you can marry me. So tomorrow, I'll be here

tonight, and then tomorrow, I want you to come to my ship. I want you

to have no clothes on-

... but not be naked. I want you to have not eaten a meal, but

not have fasted. And I want you to come without a companion, but not alone."

And so she shows up

with a dog. She doesn't have a companion, but she's not alone. She's taken a

bite out of an onion, so she's eaten. She hasn't fasted, but she hasn't had a meal.

And then she has very long hair, and so she's using the hair to cover

herself. So she has no clothes-

- Oh, she shows up naked, but she's-

- ... but clothed.

- Right. Wow.

- Yeah, so in this, so this is kind of the cleverness that would be expected of a,

of a Viking woman. So they're well matched, they're like the ideal couple.

And then they have 12 kids, 12 sons. Not just 12 kids, 12 sons.

- And many of them end up...

- Many of them end up almost as famous as their father.

- Ivar the Boneless. Uh, Bjorn Ironside, and many others. These sons

later appear as leaders of major Viking forces in England, particularly

the so-called Great Heathen Army- ... that invades in 865.

- And they are historical. They are, I mean, there's no, these were the

names of Vikings who attacked and conquered England.

They end up attacking Islamic Spain. They go all over Europe.

- Well, for them, it sounds like glory in battle is really important.

- That's right, yeah.

- And so it's not even- It's just part of the culture, it's part-

- That's right

- ... the honor culture.

- Men die, but names live forever.

- Uh, as a small aside, since Ragnar is the star of the Vikings TV

series, I don't know if you've gotten a chance to watch any of it.

Is there any accuracy to it?

- I think it's well done. My one quibble, Ragnar's brother

is Rollo in the show, right?

They weren't brothers. In fact, by some accounts, they were born 80 years apart.

But as a storytelling device, I applaud that.

- Yeah, they basically take all the main Vikings and put them all together.

Just so it's a-

- I mean, I get it. I get it, it's confusing. Honestly, in writing a book about it, the

hardest part was coming up with an organizational scheme. Like, what's the

overarching thing that links them together?

- Well, there's certainly an overarching thing, but we don't have

information about it. This is, the problem is we get to see just slivers of the

information-

- That's right, that's right

- ... from the raids. There might be just this rich history that we know

nothing about. Like where did this warrior culture come from?

Like, what was the evolution of these ideas of honor and battle? I mean, maybe it's

being overly romantic, but you can imagine the ideals of battle from the Roman

Empire, from the Roman Republic and the early imperial period

coming up north to Scandinavia. And we just know very little traces about that.

- Yeah. Even the name Scandinavia is from a Roman author.

I mean, they thought it was an island. They thought Scandinavia was an island with one tribe,

the Scandia tribe, but you know, close enough.

- And uh, who was the, what was in this Great Heathen Army

that invaded England in 865? What can we say about that?

- Well, there's this famous scene in the Viking siege of Paris in 845, which

is really the Europeans' introduction, or Europe as a whole,

to a Viking army, not just a raid and then what it could

do. And the king, the emperor,

Charles, said, "You know, let's find out what they want and how much do

I have to pay to get them to leave?"

And so his ambassador went to a Viking and said, "Who is your king?"

And the Viking looked at him, he didn't understand, and he said, "We have no king.

We are all kings." So they're very like decentralized, tough. They only valued

leaders who could prove that they had,

they had won. You know, could give out the rings.

- So flat organization, very meritocratic.

- Yes.

- If you're good at what you do, you demonstrate that skill in

battle. That means you get to have maybe a leadership position.

- That's right.

- And the moment you're no longer effective, you don't get to have this leadership

position. We're all kings. That's gangster. Throughout

history, the Mongols, Genghis Khan was famous for this meritocracy.

- That's right. Yeah.

- That's one of the components of an extremely effective military force is if

meritocracy is prized. Same is true for who

gets to rule. How do you determine the succession? If you're

just giving it to your oldest son, that's gonna be a problem.

- Yeah. Yeah, that... I could not agree more. There are some problems with,

with meritocracy in civil war because it tends to... The only way you can find out,

like Alexander the Great, right? Who does your empire belong to? To the strongest.

That kind of guarantees the civil war. At least with giving it to your older son,

you know who's gonna be... There's an element of stability there

although you may end up with a Caligula.

More likely than not, you're gonna end up with a Caligula, I would say, human nature

being what it is.

- It's— It's... Yeah, yeah, it always converges to the asshole, and the asshole holds

power, a crazy asshole. Uh, so yeah, Great Heathen Army, 865.

- So the Great Heathen Army, they were war bands that... Each followed this guy and

this guy.

"And I'm gonna sit you down in this room. I'm gonna tell you my plan. You're gonna listen

or you're gonna push back. I'm gonna push back, and we'll just have this kind of creative

discussion and come up with a plan we all agree on."

- So it used to be relatively small Viking groups that were doing raids.

And then the Great Heathen Army is this large coalition of Viking groups-

- That's right

- ... without a real leader that

was able to somehow stabilize enough to have something like governance.

Basically, there seems to be a very rapid evolution of a Viking

in every part of the world they touch. You go explore, Raid, conquer,

establish state- ... And trade routes, and always maintaining a grand ambition,

but no longer doing the violence, and always

being sufficiently programmatic and flexible where you can accept a

conversion to Christianity, for example, if it's useful-

- That's right

- ... and then they accept the culture, accept the language. So that's why they integrate and

the thing that we think of as Viking dis- kind of dissipates and disappears pretty

quickly.

- Yeah, and I think the best example of this is France, right? So the

Vikings, which is we'll talk about this more probably with

Rollo, but, you know, the Vikings settle in France, in the North

Man's Duchy, which is shortened to Normandy. And they, within

a generation... I mean, Rollo, whose real name is Hrolf, he names his son

William. That's not a Viking name. And within a generation,

the language is gone. The Viking names are gone. The

worship of Odin is, as far as we can tell, gone.

And the Normans are building churches and marrying into the local

aristocracy in there. Their... Essentially, their Viking-ness is gone

except for one thing, their, like, incredible vitality,

which the Normans essentially conquer kingdoms at both ends of Europe,

Sicily and England, and found two of the foremost powerful

states in medieval Europe.

- Yeah, so the ambition is there.

- Is there.

- The vitality is there, but it's-

- The methods have changed.

- Yeah, and they change rapidly, which is fascinating.

So you have a book. You have a podcast series on,

The Normans, so let's talk about Rollo. Who was Rollo?

The famous Viking war leader who became the first ruler

of Normandy, Northern France.

- Well, first I should say, as someone of Norwegian descent, I'm gonna fall

down on the Norwegian side of the argument here because-

... Norway and Denmark almost came to blows over which was the birthplace of Rollo.

But the consensus seems to be Norway- Not just biased. Um, so he was...

The only thing we... The only glimpse we get of Rollo as a young man is

he was very tall, so he's called Hrolf the Walker, Hrolf

Ganger because he was so tall he couldn't ride the little Viking ponies. So

he had to walk everywhere. But... Kinda poor probably raised on stories of

Ragnar and the other Viking lords, and he goes. He

may have participated in some of the earlier, like the 860 raids that

the Vikings did on Paris or the Seine, you know, and

then he eventually ends up plundering

the, what will become the Norman coast. And in the, in the year 911,

he makes a treaty, the Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte with

the Frankish King, Charles the Simple, which is not stupid. It's,

it's more like straightforward. There's no guile in how he talks. Uh, and

Charles makes a really interesting deal with Rollo, which is, um, "Why don't you

settle here, integrate into the local aristocracy

and defend the French coast against the Vikings?"

Which I don't know. It's like putting a burglar in charge of

your security or some- I don't know, but it works.

It works. And Rollo, by the time he makes that deal, he's probably in his

mid-fifties to mid-sixties. It's unclear

when he was born, but the point is he's lived the Viking life. He's,

he's got something like 20 or 30, if you add up all the sagas they say

that he... they gave him this many coins or whatever. He has probably 20 or

30 tons of silver that he has acquired and then probably given out to whatever. So-

- So yeah, so he's done the full-

- He's done the thing. Yeah

- ... and then the conquering and then-

- And then the king says, "Can you settle here?" "Can I give you legitimacy?"

- So he does the diplomacy of a treaty.

... then he does the good statecraft and state building and

then becomes, I mean, European. In one life, he goes through the full journey.

- It's... Yeah.

- And then his son, William Longsword- ... succeeded him and, uh ...

- Gets assassinated, but he does enlarge Normandy. So basically, every

ruler after Rollo enlarges Normandy until it-

it essentially becomes more powerful than the king—

... By far. There's a wonderful scene when Rollo,

Signs the treaty. He becomes a liege lord of the French king, and there's this

great scene 'cause Rollo has to bend down and kiss the foot of the king.

So Rollo's probably, you know, he's a Norwegian Viking. He's probably,

I don't know, six foot. Charles, this little Frank, he's probably five ten. So

he's like Rollo's towering over him,

and there's a large- both armies are watching. There's a bunch of people who have

come in from the countryside. They've heard something's going on, and this important part of

this feudal ceremony, you have to kiss your lord's foot to- to, you know,

be in a subservient role. And Rollo says, "I'm not gonna do that." So he turns to one of

his guards and says, "You kiss the foot," and the guard's probably taller than he is.

So he bends down and he picks the king's foot up to his mouth-

- That's the way to do it

- ... which Charles goes falling on the back. I mean-

... I can't think of a better example of the relationship between the Norman

dukes and the French kings. I mean, it's perfect. It's perfect.

- Oh God, I love the Vikings.

So as you've covered, and maybe you could speak to that a bit more,

for a long time to come, Normans have influence on Europe and beyond.

- Yeah, it's hard to overstate Normandy's impact on Europe in the Middle Ages.

Of course, they will go on to conquer England as well.

But Rollo, when he signs the treaty, it's an ambiguous treaty. He's given a title

which is rather ambiguous. He's not a duke, and it's not clear.

He's not an earl. He's not a duke. He's just subservient to the king.

Which means Normandy is not a duchy. It's not a

principality. It's kind of this ambiguous, no one really knows what it

is. And so Rollo, being a good Viking, and his descendants

being good Vikings, despite becoming French, they just call themselves Duke.

And they essentially seize whatever power they want. There's

one Norman duke, I think he's the grandson of Rollo. He's kidnapped by

the French king when he's 14. He escapes the captivity and kidnaps the king.

As a 14-year-old, I mean, it's just- these are- these guys are crazy.

- How far geographically and in time does the influence of the Normans

and Normandy go? So what should we understand about the impact of Normans-

... in history?

- I'm a romantic, so I, when I read history, I usually

end up rooting for the losers. Um, I want Harold Godwinson to beat No-

William the Conqueror. You know, I want Hector to beat Achilles. Never

works, no matter how many times I read it. But

I was always interested in the Normans because of the Norman conquest of England.

And my I have a twin brother, and he asked me, we were taking a walk, and he asked me,

"How did Europe..." Uh, 'cause we, I was reading about the Dark Ages at the

time, the the early Middle Ages. "And how did Europe, this kind of backwards place,

become the dominant-" "... force in the world?"

And I started thinking about that, and my answer really is the Normans.

The Normans, that's the great change between

Europe as a backwards, inward-looking place, and Europe as a kind of

confident, outward-looking place. And that change happens under-

under the Normans. I mean, the Normans, it's not a coincidence that they-

they lead the charge in the First Crusade.

They create the state of England. If you look at England before the

Vikings arrive, there are seven, it's the Heptarchy, there are seven

kingdoms in England, and the Vikings destroyed all but one. Only

Wessex is preserved, and they've conquered about half of Wessex.

And there's a young king. What's he gonna do?

But that king is Alfred the Great, and he conquers the rest. And then his

grandson, Athelstan, is the first man called King of England, king of all Angles.

And then they do the same thing almost wherever they go. They

help create modern France by ripping apart,

uh, Charlemagne's empire, which was unwieldy.

It looked good on paper, but it was unwieldy. It was replaced by this leaner,

meaner, compact thing. They figure out how to deal with the Vikings by

essentially building fortified bridges, changes to their army, and so forth.

The Vikings, I—I like to call it creative destruction. It—they, by

destroying the things they destroyed, they cleared the ground for something

stronger to grow.

- Uh, that's brilliant. The creative destruction engine that created Europe

was the Normans and the Vikings.

And then you also, you have another book that talks about the Byzantine

Empire, so you have the creative destruction that resulted in Europe,

that Europe led to this Western, quote-unquote, civilization that we think of now.

And the thing that protected Europe for centuries

was the existence of the Byzantine Empire, the East Roman Empire,

because of all the threats-

- That's right.

- ... That came towards Europe. This strong,

stable empire that is the Byzantine Empire

protected the forces from everything that came from the east.

- Yeah, that's right.

- They were a buffer.

- They were a buffer, giving Europe this kind of vital time to develop the way it needed

to develop.

- So it's—it's interesting to think that the world as we see now was a result—

... of a sequence of quite lucky geographical and

leadership decisions in history. I mean, it really does pivot on

a few points of geography and a few special leaders- ... that conquer.

- Yeah. Had Constantine chosen his side a little less wisely,

the world's going to be very different.

- Yeah, so Constantine is the guy who moved the capital of the

empire from Rome to Constantinople, thereby giving a lot more focus to the east.

Thereby protecting Europe from the gigantic threats that—

- That's right.

- ... loomed in the east.

- That's right. And the Islamic invasions of the seventh century, they couldn't

get past that choke point of Constantinople. So they had to take the long way

across Africa. You know, and by the time they get to Spain,

And conquer Spain and into, that's the Battle of Tours,

you know, Charles Martel is able to stop them, and they're, they're

massively overextended. You know, I think it's a very different story if they can come

in through the Black Sea.

- And all the times the East Roman Empire almost died from all the invasions,

all of those invaders would have just conquered the entirety of Europe.

- Yeah, I mean, I don't think they would've met much resistance.

- Yeah. So rewinding back, what was the religion, the

religious beliefs, the gods that the Vikings believed that

we've mentioned a little bit of? Thor and Odin, how did they see this, this world

and the universe?

- It's, so the Viking gods are... I mean, they've been sanitized, but they're quite

terrifying. But their basic conception of the

universe is an eternal struggle between chaos and

order, which chaos will eventually win. So I think the

best view of cosmology is of concentric circles, with

Utgard is the outer realm and that's where the chaos is. And those are the, that's

where the frost giants are, all the monsters that seek to

destroy. The gods represent order and stability, and the

monsters represent chaos, and it's an eternal war between the two of them.

Um, so there are different categories of gods depending on which circle you

come from. The gods don't all like each other. They're not...

Sometimes they engage in wars. Some of the

most famous gods, the Norse gods, you know, Loki or Freya,

come from outside the Aesir, the main gods. So it was kind of a fluid thing.

- It's more a way to understand the world.

- I think so, yeah. The thunder is

Thor fighting the ice giants, and that's what that is.

- Uh, going to Perplexity. Vikings followed the polytheistic,

ritual-heavy religion centered on a pantheon of gods and spirits with no

single holy book or unified church, and practices varied a lot by

region and family. And so the major gods were Odin and Thor and Freya.

Odin was, his domain was war, kingship, wisdom,

death. Thor was protection, thunder, fertility. Freya was love, magic,

battle dead. Um,

typical worshipers for Odin were chieftains and elite warriors and poets.

Typical worshipers for Thor were

farmers and "ordinary people," and typical worshipers of

Freya were women, magic practitioners, and lovers.

- Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've heard it... I think you can break it down saying like, Odin

was the elite. He's kind of more aristocratic, right?

- Yes.

- He's the god of poetry, you need to read, et cetera. Only the elite would know how to do

that. A farmer wouldn't really care about that. Wherein Thor is a more earthy god.

You know, you want the waves to be less, you know, pray to Thor. Um,

I find Odin, I think, most disturbing. He's the god of

madness and the god of poetry, which, I guess those are related.

- Yeah.

- Um, but in battle, I mean, the berserkers, probably the most famous type of Viking

warriors, were considered to be Odin's chosen warriors. They would show

no pain, and they'd just run at the enemy and attack with their

nails and their teeth.

Even if they could have their arms hacked off, they would still keep going.

Like they would just... And they would attack other Vikings. They were berserk.

That's where we get the word from.

- Uh, what do we understand the mindset leads to that?

I mean, it wasn't religious in nature. There's not this kinda

ideology. It's just the way of life and then the prized

honor and intensity in battle.

- Yeah. I mean, one of Odin's names is the raven feeder. I mean, you

were, by creating corpses, which ravens feed on, you are,

you're doing the work of Odin. And, you know, the,

the Viking view of the afterlife was unique. There weren't really punishments,

not really, for doing bad things. Unless you did something really bad.

Then you ended up as basically an evil spirit, haunting your grave.

But if you were brave, then you got taken to the house of the dead, which is

Valhalla to... And you were resurrected. Every day

you would fight, and whatever wounds you got would be magically healed that night.

And then the next morning you'd get up and do it again. So you're essentially practicing for

Ragnarok- ...the final battle,

which you would lose. So I'm not sure. It seems, it's rather pessimistic.

- The battle's what... I mean, it sounds like losing is not a

thing. The battle itself is what matters, so

Valhalla...It's a place where you fight a battle every day.

- Every day.

- Unlimited food, there's like a boar or whatever.

- Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

- There's unlimited wine.

- Yep.

- And you can die as much as you want-

- As much as you want, yeah

- ...and you'll be born again. And this is the idea of the highest...

This, I guess, if there's such a thing as heaven in this kind of

construction of the universe, this is heaven.

- This is heaven, yeah.

- This is the highest form. This is the highest place you can go to is Valhalla.

Is fight every day, eat as much as you want, drink as much as you want,

die and are reborn the next day.

And this is forever, preparing yourself for the final battle of Ragnarok.

- Ragnarok.

- So this is where, this is the end of the world, this is the cataclysm.

- Mm-hmm. That's right.

Odin's gonna die, Thor will die. He'll get killed by one of Loki's children, the

Midgard Serpent. Odin will be devoured by a wolf.

The sun and moon, which are being chased by

monsters, by giants, will be caught and swallowed by the giants,

plunging the world into eternal darkness. Essentially all the gods will die

and darkness and chaos will then ensue. And then at the very

end the... This is mostly from a guy named Snorri Sturluson who was

living right at the end of the Viking Age and writing this. And he was, I believe, a

Christian. So there's... I think we're fusing things here.

So then there would be a new Earth and a new heaven and a new god,

who's all powerful.

- Yeah, if you think of religion as a kind of technology,

a social technology that stabilizes or helps guide the evolution of a society, it's

interesting to see what the Vikings came up with. And do you ever think

from a history, the grand view of history,

how effective these different technologies of religion have been?

- Yeah, I mean, I think that's certainly...

I'm thinking of the Viking rituals. Hospitality is

very important in a northern climate where, you know, food is scarce, winters

are long and harsh. And if you don't share your hearth with,

you know, someone knocking on your door, then someone else might not share it with you

and you could be facing death. So in this case hospitality becomes a core belief

and— ... you know, the idea was that Odin would travel incognito,

knocking on people's doors, and he would remember

if you let him in or not. And if you were hospitable, he would bless you, and if you were

inhospitable, he would murder you. And—

... you know, I think these rituals are obviously intended for,

"How do we survive this winter?"

- Yeah, how do we effectively spread the message that hospitality is pretty?

Good thing and it's characteristic of religion.

If you do a good thing, you'll be rewarded. If you do a bad thing, you'll

be punished. And then different religions play the different ways of

communicating that.

- Yeah. I mean, I think also religion gives you, it gives you a

world view, right? It gives you a morality and these are core parts of society.

- And the beautiful thing about religion

is it interplays with human nature and it guides humans.

But then of course, human nature and humans

project themselves onto the religion, sometimes they use their religion. It's

to accomplish goals in a pragmatic sense, in a political sense, in a geopolitical sense,

in a military sense, in a social sense. And so there's that dance of

how religion invigorates and guides the peoples,

and then how the peoples use the religion to guide the direction of the world.

And that's certainly the history of Christianity has a big role to play in

the history of Europe, in the history of the Byzantine Empire,

And that part of the world. And it was an incredibly effective religion,

Once Constantine converted.

It spread extremely quickly, relatively speaking, across a couple of

centuries. Just to linger on the Viking views of the

world and the afterlife. So we mentioned Valhalla. There's the Norns,

which are the three spirits that represent the past, the present and the

necessity. They spin the fates of all men and gods at the Roots of Yggdrasil.

- Yeah. Yggdrasil.

- Yggdrasil. So there's a notion of like determinism and fate

to the Viking life. And there's Valhalla, there's Hel, Niflheim.

This was the destination for the vast majority of people.

So if you don't make it to Valhalla, this is where you go.

- That's where you go.

- Unless you're a real bad person, then there's some punishment for the truly wicked.

- And we should point out that Hel, spelled with one L was a daughter of Loki-

... And was not the same as the...

- Hel with the two L's.

- Hel with the two L's. Very different.

- It's more like purgatory type of situation.

- Yeah, so it's the house of the, it's like the house of the dead, the house of the underworld.

- A colorless twilight, not necessarily a place of punishment but

simply the inevitable end for most, unless

you end up in Valhalla, which means you're a great warrior dying in battle.

- It reminds me of the Greek view of the afterlife, right? Where you essentially get amnesia and forget who you

are unless someone makes a sacrifice and says your name, and only

then you'll remember it. So your destiny is ultimately to

just become gray and fade away. So you might as well-

you might as well be brave. You might as well run at that spear.

- So that was the engine of their-

the warrior culture that was core to their society.

- I think probably.

- I have to ask about Vikings as explorers. They were...... truly one of the greatest

explorers in history. What can you say to,

what is it in their spirit that motivated them? I mean, they sailed, they

reached North America 500 years before Columbus. They sailed,

Obviously to England, Spain, Italy, Russia, North Africa, the Middle East, Paris,

and I'm just showing here a map of the ocean routes and the river

systems that they connected to and sailed. What do you think drove them

to explore the unknown?

- This boggles my mind. This, like this map here just,

it messes with me because they didn't have a compass.

I mean, can you imagine shoving off from some fjord in Norway

west. That's your only, west.

And there was a Viking named Naddodd. He's actually the first

Norseman to reach Iceland, though it was a total accident. But here's the, here's the

mind-blowing part. He decides to land and explore,

and he gets off and he sees two humans. They're monks from Ireland.

They got there in a canoe.

You look at Ireland, look at Iceland, that's even more impressive.

They got in a canoe, a skin boat-

... and they just went north because they were trying to get away from the world.

They found Iceland, and

in a very excellent move on their part, they ran away as soon as the Vikings arrived, which

is, you know, pretty smart.

- I don't know if you know there's this video of the deranged penguin

with the Werner Herzog documentary, where

Werner Herzog is like, overdubbing, explaining the thinking of the penguin. But the

penguin leaves the tribe and he just goes out into the mountains. I have to show you this video.

This is my favorite video of all time. There's this low-key documentary

where they're talking about penguins, and then there's one penguin that leaves-

- I'm out.

- ... leaves the tribe and just goes towards the mountains, and

as Werner Herzog says, "Towards certain death." It

always reminds me of this kind of Viking spirit or the— ... or the monk spirit.

There's something, one human or a small group of humans just decide to go.

- Just go, yeah.

- And not look back.

- Are there sea monsters out there? Maybe.

- Maybe.

- Is there any land? Are we gonna fall off the edge of the earth? Maybe.

- And just as Werner Herzog says, you know, "There's certain death."

Now, he doesn't romanticize it. He says the penguin is just deranged and crazy.

But look, the penguin did look back briefly.

- Right.

- He did think about this. So this—

... there's two ways, there's multiple ways, but you just

highlighted two ways to explore. One is 'cause you're this

hardcore dude that just is looking to

raid and just goes and goes and just you have the resilience and the will-

... to keep going. And then there's the monks that just want to leave.

- Escape, yeah. Yeah.

- They just go toward the, they want to leave far away-

... so they could be closer to God. They could be closer to themselves and to-

- And away from sin. Yeah.

You know, there's this poem by Tennyson, Ulysses, my favorite poem.

Uh, I think it captures the Viking spirit. The last line of it is to strive,

"to seek, to find, and not to yield." I think that's very much like the

Viking, you know, "My purpose holds, to sail beyond the baths of all the western

stars until I die." You may die, but I'm gonna do this, and I'm not gonna yield.

- That spirit is one of my favorite aspects of human beings.

- I think that's why the Vikings remain so popular today, you know?

We name our satellites, our football teams, you know, our cruise ships.

There's this like, there's this romantic hook- ... of a people who did not yield.

- Yeah, they embodied the part, the flame that burns in all of us

that we admire most about human beings. Is that like unyielding focus on

going out there, of taking a leap into the unknown,

into the scary, and never stopping.

- That's right. It's not too late to seek a newer world.

- I have to ask you about, speaking of a newer world, America.

And Leif Ericson. But first, a quick bathroom break if it's okay.

Quick 30-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really

is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. We got

Larridin, for measuring AI adoption in your business, BetterHelp,

for mental health, LMNT, for electrolytes, Fin, for

customer service AI agents, Shopify for selling stuff online, and

Perplexity, for curiosity-driven knowledge exploration.

Choose wisely, my friends. And now, back to my conversation with Lars Brownworth.

All right, we're back. Let's talk about this incredible fact of

the Vikings, that Leif Ericson, who was a Viking explorer,

was the first European to reach North America around the year

1000, five centuries before Columbus reached North America.

Tell the story of his journey. What do we know about him?

- So let's begin with his dad. His dad's name is Erik the Red, who

was forced to flee Norway when he was probably 10 years old

because his dad had killed some people. It's kind of hilarious.

In the saga it says, "For a few killings..."

Okay, I guess that's a thing. So he went to Iceland

and he got a farm in Iceland which was already starting to become

overpopulated. They had cut down all the trees. There were

some climate problems of deforestation

and farms just blowing away, so the population was

essentially beginning to crash in Iceland. And he

got into a fight with his neighbor and ended up killing his neighbor,

and so he was exiled from Iceland. He was exiled from the place his father had been exiled

from.

- So it runs in the family, this whole outlaw thing.

- What also ran in the family apparently was this streak, this

courageous streak. And he had heard that there had been people... So the,

the Norwegian Vikings, they were aiming for England, and

they hit the Hebrides, which are these kind of treeless islands

above Scotland, and they found they were good for refueling 'cause they'd get,

pick up water or whatever, and then on your way to Scotland to raid.

And then a Viking had missed the Hebrides and discovered

Iceland, and then another Viking had aimed for

Iceland, missed, and hit Greenland. And a little fun

fact about Greenland, it is both north, south, east, and west of

Iceland. So it's any direction, you're gonna hit Greenland.

- So Greenland is hard to miss.

- It's hard to miss, which is not to take away anything from the

extraordinary danger, the certain death of going further west. But

there was this... By this time, there was this idea that, you know, enough people

had become famous by sailing west into the unknown and

discovering things, that I think there was a general idea of there's more out there to the

west. And so he had talked to someone who had seen Greenland and

reported that there was this good land further west. And so

he hired the ship's crew of that Viking. So it's kind of the deck was loaded,

and he went to Greenland where he was able

to settle two different colonies. One was called the Western Settlement

in the west, and one was called the Eastern Settlement in essentially the extreme south.

And that was essentially the edges of where Viking technology could be.

A cool factoid is that the Vikings practiced husbandry,

raised animals, and obviously this is not an option

in Greenland, although they couldn't have known it at the time. But they brought plants with

them. So, and then they were able to trade with the native Inuit for walrus

blubber and things like that, and they made a go of it. But

what's obvious, you know, anyone who's seen Greenland,

there's, there are no trees. It's almost impossible to survive

by practicing husbandry. It is impossible to survive, as it turns out,

just practicing husbandry. And by this point, I think this

extraordinary Viking pragmatism is beginning to be played out. Because

one of the reasons the Greenland experiment fails ultimately in 300 years is they

fail to adapt. It's clearly they should, they should focus more on

fishing, on other sources than, than just raising pigs and cows. But-

- Oh, so we hit the limit of the,

the Viking adaptability which they have demonstrated throughout the world, I'd say.

Interesting.

- So Erik the Red is this, he makes his name by exploring,

and he does in fact, once he discovers Greenland, he calls it green.

He says there's so many salmon in the rivers of, in the fjords that you can

just scoop them out with your hands. You don't even have to fish.

- Was this real?

- It's a lie.

- Okay.

- That's not true at all.

- So he's doing propaganda.

- He's doing propaganda.

- So is that... Is this story true that he called it green just so he can attract-

- It is.

- So-

- The greatest real estate scam in history. Yeah.

- Okay. Genius. I mean, just stuck to this day.

- Yeah. It's the most misnamed place in the world.

But in the Europe of the time, even in Iceland, the

dream was to have land. I mean, land equaled wealth in Europe.

And here he says there's enough land for the taking, like

anyone who wants it, which is true. It's the largest island on earth. I mean, it's,

it's unusable, but it should be called Iceland,

Glacier Land or something. But it worked. He took 500 men

with him from Iceland. It's gotta be a significant chunk of the

population, but there's enough people, kind of land hungry, there's no more room in

Iceland. It's too restrictive. We're gonna go further west. So he takes 25 ships and

then 14 make it, which is pretty good. And then those 14 ships with their

300 or so people start the western colony. And then word

gets back to Norway, but Norway's 2,000 miles away, 2,000-plus miles away. So it's,

you know, contact... They're having to get resupplied. In the first winter, all their

cattle die. That's not a great, that's not a great start for

people who practice husbandry. So they've got to get resupplied from Norway,

but, you know, the chances of making it to Norway and back are actually

not that great if you're sailing without a compass.

You're just kind of hoping. But they do it. They do it. And the colonies

survive until the 1400s, where they just go silent.

- So let's talk about Erik the Red's son, Leif Erikson.

How does the journey continue west?

- So Erik is getting a little older. The Greenland settlements are

becoming filled up. Erik is happy where he is. He's been kicked out of enough

places. He's made his home here, and this is where he wants to be. But

his son... They're running out of resources. There's no wood.

You know, there's limited food, et cetera, et cetera. And so his son

proposes going west because he's heard stories that there are

other lands. So another Viking had gotten lost, aimed for Greenland and

missed, and had seen something. He said he saw

clouds and mountains and there's land there. And then he had

turned around. And Leif again did the same thing, he hired the man's crew.

He asked his dad to come, his dad wouldn't. He went with his half sister Freydis, who

was a whole nother story by herself, and a bunch of other

colonists, and they went, and they landed in a place.

He called it Vinland because he found-...

things that he could ferment. So, of course, the Vikings, they made wine, or a

wine-like alcohol. So Leif Erikson is, he's landed. He doesn't know this, but

he's landed on a new continent with essentially inexhaustible stores of food and

timber and everything he needs. It's the perfect place.

Unfortunately for him, it's also inhabited by

some natives, probably the Algonquin tribe. He calls them

the Skraelings, which is just Norse for screechers because he

can't understand their language. They just yell at them and attack immediately.

They stay there for three years and then give up

and go back home. So ultimately, it... and then really don't tell anyone about it.

They just keep it in their northern sagas.

- Why do you think they left? Why do you think they didn't stick around longer?

- I think there are a number of things working against them. Of course, I would like to believe there's an alternate

history where the Vikings successfully make it down,

you know, maybe down to Maryland or something, and there's an alternate history

of the US and Canada here, but I think there's a number of things

working against them. The first is they stubbornly

refused to give up husbandry, so they're trying to make this work.

L'Anse aux Meadows I think is where they were, in Newfoundland. It doesn't work.

The climate's too cold. It's not... the grasses aren't appropriate, you

know, it's just not gonna work and they do not adapt, number one. Number

two, they're 2,000-plus miles away from Norway and getting

resupplied, and although they are extremely good sailors and explorers

and traders, I think this is a little too far.

And then thirdly is the native resistance. It's just too

incessant. They are outnumbered, you know, millions to one.

And the Algonquin do not want them there. It's clear,

and they're not gonna stop attacking.

- It's so fascinating because they really didn't understand

the full scale of the land they've encountered, right?

- That's right. That's right. I mean, had they known, had he known-

... what he had found-

- That there's more south. Maybe they, their intuition-

- That's right.

- ... was like there's not... it's just all northern land, it's void of

resources. We can't do the whole husbandry thing.

But you would think they could go down the coast.

- I mean, if they could have gotten enough people from Norway,

you know, or Iceland or whatever, you know, a sizable enough colony,

and build some kind of defenses to fight off the incessant attacks-

... then I think that's the difference there, 'cause there certainly the resources are all there.

- Mm-hmm. Or just keep staying in the water, keep going down the coast-

- Yeah. Yeah.

- ... not necessarily camp out until, until you get further south.

It is fascinating to think about that alternate history where they would have

discovered America and settled there. So this is 500

years before Columbus. There's...

first of all, they could have done a lot of the stuff we

think about the European nations doing,

including brutality towards the natives. But there could have been

a coexistence also, and some of the diseases that come with

them could have done the damage that they did 500 years later. But now,

it would have stabilized the populations to where the Europeans, the French, the

Spanish, and so on who come, the natives would be more ready. So

they would... Europe would then encounter

a sizable population of the Viking descendants and the

natives to where the two could hold onto the land

and bring a different kind of civilization there.

Because ultimately Europe, with the European ways, of the Western

civilization, expanded out into North America,

but there could be this whole Scandinavian vibe- ... that would have taken over.

- Just a hair's breadth. My favorite museum in New York is called The

Cloisters. It's part of the Met, and in the Cloisters, there's an ivory cross.

And the ivory cross has been richly carved with Christian scenes.

It was carved in England, but it's made of walrus ivory,

and they got it from the New World.

And the Viking, you know, Viking traders. It represents, you know, the great

arc of the northern trade. So it's walrus ivory from the New World via

Norway to England to New York. It's a great symbol of that trade.

- This whole just period of thousands of years of exploration

that we no longer can do, so it's kind of geographic exploration of the world,

is fascinating. It takes true courage. It takes true wander.

Uh, the kind of exploration we could do now is more in the scientific realm and the realm

of ideas and then maybe in terms of geography out into space and

exploring the universe.

- Yeah, I think the closest analog is probably Mars, right? I mean, what would

it take for you to be like, "All right, I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna go to Mars"? You're,

never coming back. There's nothing there as far as you know. You know, all

the accoutrements of civilization are not there. It's- that's the kind of

courage you would have taken.

- Yeah, but there's, on top of that, with Greenland, with Iceland, with Finland,

there's just so much uncertainty, like literally what's beyond

this hill. So with Mars, everything is mapped. So,

so it's really you, you understand the full harshness of the situation.

- Of what you're gonna face, yeah.

- So it's more, it's that's more akin to like, all right, I'm running an

ultra-marathon. I understand the challenge.

I think more akin would be like traveling out into

like the Oort Cloud, like beyond the solar system.

- What's scarier, the known or the unknown?

- I think that deeply, the human nature pulls us towards the unknown.

- No, it's true. Yeah.

- All right. Speaking of which, going to the East.

So like we mentioned, the Vikings really went all over. And one of

the directions they went that ended up touching the Byzantine Empire in

Constantinople, is they went East. What can you say about the

8th century journey East in the river networks that the Vikings did, the Swedish

Vikings, the Varangians, as they began to explore the river systems of Russia?

- So this was the most surprising part for me when I was

first thinking about writing the book and, you know, discovering where the

Vikings went. I never... In a million years, it would've never occurred to me that the

Vikings went East. But a- a good way to think of this is

the Vikings launched themselves in whatever direction their country is

facing. So Sweden goes to the East, Denmark

goes down toward Germany, and Norway goes England and the New

World. So there's a Viking named Rorik who goes East

and manages to set up an encampment on this lake called Staraya Ladoga.

- Which is a launchpad to both the Volga River and the Dnieper River.

- Yeah, and these are major river systems in the East that take you all the way

down to the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. Because the Vikings,

you know, such sea-born people, they can sail up rivers.

This allows them access to the caliphates in the

East and to the Byzantium Empire, where

they, being Vikings, immediately decide to attack the city.

The Byzantines essentially set the Sea of Marmara outside of Constantinople on fire-

... and burn up all the Viking ships. So then the Vikings decide,

"Okay, we can't, we can't take Constantinople, so we might as well join 'em if

we can't beat 'em." And they end up as

probably the most famous guard in Byzantine history, the Varangian Guard.

Varangian means the men of the oath.

Or the men who've sworn an oath. This is kind of an analog

of the Praetorian Guard in Ancient Rome.

They were famously loyal to the throne, but not

necessarily to the person sitting on the throne.

they're major power players. The last of the

great Byzantine emperors, Basil the Bulgar Slayer, forms them in the late 900s.

And they're there with the history all the way up until the end of it.

In fact, many of our famous Vikings, Harald Hardrada

serve in the Varangian Guard. If you go to Constantinople today, inside the Church of the

Hagia Sophia, on the second floor there's a marble balcony,

and on the railings, you can find Norse runes that are carved in by

Varangian Guards who were bored during a particularly long sermon,

in a language they didn't understand, but they had to stand there.

- So that's a fascinating thing, which is the Varangian Guard

guarding the emperor of the East Roman Empire,

is made up initially, for quite a bit of time, of Vikings.

I mean, like speaking of pragmatic, they just integrate into everything.

Now eventually, the Varangian Guard became less and less Viking over time.

But this whole... You fast-forwarded the story, we should mention

that Staraya Ladoga in 753 AD is when it was established, opening the connection to

the two rivers, and they began trading on the rivers

and establishing more stable states along the rivers,

including the Kievan Rus in 862, 882,

where the Varangians, so it's the Swedish Vikings,

they took Novgorod, they took Kiev, and they established the Kievan Rus

there. And that is what led to the

connection to the Byzantine Empire, where they started to... Again,

the Vikings went from being Vikings. They go through this process of trading

and then establishing a state, now they're doing treaties of different

kinds, and they're also waging, or trying to wage war. And

going all the way to Constantinople, and having a deep admiration for

Constantinople, enough to then begin to dream of sacking Constantinople.

- Yeah. I mean, once they're alerted to the wealth that's there, you know,

Vikings being Vikings, they show up.

- Can you speak to the Greek Fire? So this was 941 and 944

when they tried, and then Greek Fire was this technology developed by the Romans.

- We don't really know what it was, Greek Fire. It was a form of

napalm, obviously. We have the ingredients what made it up,

naphtha and oil and things like that. But it was this very

flammable material that would ignite on contact.

So the Byzantines would fill it into clay pots and then

throw the clay pots. As soon as it's exposed to oxygen, it would

start burning. They also had siphons. They would carry, like, flamethrowers on their back

and they would just spray it at enemies. And the real

devious thing about it is that if you launch this clay pot at a ship

and the material, you know, pooled across the wood and

then dripped off into the water, being oil, it would float on top of the water and

continue to burn. So that if you were a sailor and

you jumped off the ship 'cause it's on fire and jumped into

this oil patch that's on fire, you'd be coated with it and you'd

burn underneath the water. It was a horrible way to go. So this was a state secret,

closely guarded secret. So closely guarded—it remains a mystery to this day

of what exactly it was.

- Which is incredible, right?

- Yeah. But it, in the 944 attack on

Constantinople, I mean the Vikings are coming on their ships. They brought these ships from

Sweden. I mean that's crazy. They're in the Black Sea. They've

sailed and they kind of swarm at the Byzantines. The

Byzantines launch a bunch of decrepit old ships toward them

that have Greek fire on them, and that turns the tide. But

the Byzantine emperor so appreciates the strength of

these horrifying Vikings that he forms a bodyguard of them.

- And hence we get just a few years later, again, tried to sack

Constantinople and then join them.

- Join 'em, yep.

- The Varangian Guard in 988 with Basil II and Vladimir,

they make Varangian Guard into an institution, and then the word of mouth

spreads that this is a real career path for the,

for the Viking, is to join the guard.

- Yeah, that's right.

'Cause not only do you get paid very, you're compensated very well

obviously for defending the emperor, particularly if you do a good job, but you also have opportunities

'cause the emperor sends you, "Let's go attack, you know,

this tribe," and you get to keep whatever you take. So there's tremendous amounts of

war profiteering you can accomplish. And the other great river system, the Volga,

that brings you to the the great enemy of the Byzantines, the Abbasid

Caliphate. And they had a lot of trading links with the north. So you get things

like fur and amber, lots of slaves from the from the

Islamic world going up. You even have in a Swedish coin hoard,

there's a Buddha that's been found. I mean- ... it's Sweden.

- Yeah. So these networks of trade, just how incredible are they with geography,

right? You can transform your understanding of land

from the geography of the land to the geography of the

river networks, because the way they raid and then invade and

then conquer England is through the rivers. It's an

incredibly different way of seeing the world.

- Yeah. And if you look at the kingdoms the Vikings created, I'm thinking particularly

of like Eric Bloodaxe in, you know, in York,

he's controlling parts of Ireland parts of

Scotland, Wales, England. Like there's no... That

doesn't make sense unless, unless you're a Viking. You know, he's...

That also added tremendously to the terror that the

Vikings brought, because I mean you should probably be a little careful with

absolute statements here, but I can't think of a major European city

that's not on a river.

Uh, which meant now with the Vikings, 'cause they could travel up, you

know, rivers, the shallow rivers and then carry their

boats whenever, they would, everything was on the table now, even hundreds

of miles inland is on the table.

- Mm-hmm. And an incredible speed, much faster than the land armies. It's terrifying.

- It's terrifying.

- So you're living in a constant state of fear.

- Constant state of fear.

- We've talked about this transition

in several different contexts, but you've written about this. It's

really interesting. Is the Vikings, like Ragnar,

going from this mode of sea kings with no territory to the mode of land kings?

Do you have like somebody like Harald Bluetooth, 10th century Viking king of Denmark,

you go from being these grand explorers that are

free to being state builders. Was this

always inevitable for all of these Vikings? Could we speak to the different

transitions, maybe in England?

- I think in one way, it's inevitable. There's so many

examples of destroyers who just wreck civilizations.

The builders are much more rare, you know? So I think it's,

it's one of the reasons I think Augustus is a much more interesting person than Julius

Caesar is. Augustus was a builder, and I like to

see that. I like to see not just can you pull down, but can you build up?

You know, just to take Ireland for example,

Dublin, Limerick, almost every major city in Ireland was founded by the Vikings.

So I don't think it's just a given that it would have happened. I think there's something

about the Vikings, and it's probably tied to their pragmatism, their, like

this pragmatic streak of, "We're gonna use whatever. Oh, this system of

king works. This taxation system's pretty good, let's keep it."

You know, "Oh, this is, this doesn't work. Let's ditch it."

- Yeah, they, I mean the, they went from destroyer to

builder very naturally and very quickly.

- Yeah. There's a natural process from conquering to building,

but it does take talent and it does take a certain something.

- Can we talk about so one of the great Vikings, Canute the Great?

- I love Canute. I love Canute. I think he never, he doesn't get his due. He's one of those

unsung heroes, I think, of the Viking world. He had a reputation.

He was called the Emperor of the North.

He had this massive, you know, England, Scotland,

Wales, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark. I mean he's just tying it all together.

He was an extremely effective English king.

I believe he introduced the penny, sadly discontinued, but I—

- Oh wait, really? Discontinued?

- Discontinued. They're no longer making...

- The penny is discontinued.

- 2025's the last, the last penny.

- Oh, no.

- Everything's gonna go up by five.

- Uh, so going to Perplexity. Canute the Great

was an early 11th century Danish ruler who became king of

England, Denmark and Norway....

creating what historians call the North Sea Empire. He's

often regarded as one of the most effective kings in Anglo-Saxon

English history for stabilizing the realm after decades of Viking warfare.

Again, an example of a destroyer becoming a state builder.

- Yeah. He was, he was extremely strong. He was effective.

You know, England went from being the whipping boy of

the Vikings to controlling the Vikings.

- And ended up on a pilgrimage to Rome.

- Went to Rome. Yeah.

- So he although a Viking war leader, Canute ruled as a Christian king—

... Patronizing churches and monasteries and going on pilgrimage to

Rome in 1027 where he attended the Holy Roman Emperor's coronation.

- Yes, he was recognized by his contemporaries as something special, right?

You don't get invited to those coronations if you're a nobody.

But the most famous story of Canute that I know, my favorite story, is,

you know, being in positions of power, being famous, a lot of people sucking up to

you, a lot of people telling you whatever they think you wanna hear.

And so people are telling him all the time how wonderful he is, and he takes

his whole court down to the seashore and orders his,

his courtiers to carry him on his throne into the water,

and then he commands the seas to stop, the waves to stop and to retreat.

And they don't obviously, and everyone thinks he's a little... But his point

is that, "Y'all are saying how great I am. I have no control." I mean, this is his

active humility to kind of embarrass... "I have no control over anything. Stop

telling me I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread."

- I like the leaders, and there's a few of them in history that

rise to the very top, and they're still able to maintain humility.

Marcus Aurelius in the Roman Empire is an example

that, you know, reading Meditations is also just an

insight into the mind of a man who's

to himself, 'cause Meditations is not supposed to be

work that's published. It's just a diary. To himself, he's deeply humbled. And-

... and one of the most powerful humans in history- ... is still humble.

- The two most famous stoics, one was an emperor and one was a slave.

- So in the other part of the world, you've written a

book and you did a legendary podcast

series on The Byzantine Empire, the East Roman Empire,

AKA, The Roman Empire. Well, let me actually

just as a tangent of a tangent ask you about the podcast. So you're, you created

what is widely considered to be the first

history podcast. This is before Dan Carlin, before

all the amazing podcasts we all know and love. So the

podcast series of course is The Twelve Byzantine Rulers: The History of the Byzantine

Empire. What motivated you to explore this medium

of podcasting? What... In, in the early, this must've been 2005,

something like this.

- It was, it was '05, yeah.

- And people should go listen to it because it, it's still, I mean, it's like, it's

like we're talking about like

ancient times or something, 'cause it is now a long time ago, but it's still an

incredibly good podcast. It's a great podcast series.

- Thank you. At the time, there's a series that I would

get at the library called The Great Courses. I don't know if you're familiar with-

- Yes. Great Courses, yes.

- There was one particular professor. His name is Bob Brier, and he

was, he's an Egyptologist, lives on Long Island where I'm from, and he,

I mean, it's a massive thing. It's like 24 hours-

... of lectures about the entire history of Egypt, and it was

fascinating, 'cause he was, he's such a good storyteller.

And I was reading... As a kid I could never

figure out if I liked the medieval period better or the Roman period better.

I was constantly going back and forth, and

I stumbled across a book which referred to the medieval Roman Empire, and

it was a bit like discovering your favorite TV show had 12

extra seasons you didn't know about.

And they were just as good. So I... It really was

a labor of love. I couldn't, I would not shut up about The Byzantine

Empire. So my older brother, we would go on walks together and I would be like, "And

then Justinian, you know, da, da, da."

And he stopped me, he said, "I have no idea what you're talking about. I have no idea, like, I need a

framework. Give me a framework for this." So I went home and I recorded myself

giving a framework, which turned out to be episode one, but

I think I said it, I did it in a British accent, a really bad British accent.

I was just messing around.

And I gave him the... Luckily, I did it in my regular voice as well as this

goofy accent, and I gave it to him and then I forgot about it. And that summer

I was on a dig in Petra excavating the Temple

of the Winged Lions, which was like a dream come true for me. And

I get this email from my brother

and he said, "Oh, I just submitted it as a podcast."

So he had to tell me what that was. But I was going for,

to the extent that I had put thought into it, I was going for kind of a

longer form lecture Great Courses series on the Byzantines.

and then a bunch of people started emailing me saying, "When's episode two coming out?" Oh, okay.

So I guess there has to be an episode two.

And then the thing kinda snowballed from there. I had no idea what I was doing.

- Uh, your brother, by the way, is super tech savvy.

- He is. It wouldn't have happened without Anders. So Anders, thank you.

- But like looking back now, what do you think about that medium?

Why do you think it connected so much,

To people? Because you've also written several

amazing books. One of them is on The Byzantine

Empire. Just looking back in a retrospective kind of

way, because that from there blew up an entire industry of

incredible other history podcasts and podcasts in general.

- Yeah, I've been... That's a great question. I've been trying to think

for the past 20 years, like why it's such a,

such a niche field, right? Why would people be interested in it? Um, I think number

one, it's a great story. And people are people,

and we haven't changed much, which is one of the reasons why it's accessible,

because it's very... These are people you could meet today.

Um, but I think podcasting in general, because there's such a low bar to get in, or

there was at the time. I mean, there's nobody else, so just by virtue of being

first, you know, it attracted attention. Whatever its merits,

being first was the strongest one.

- Which is say you also did another series on the Normans

who no longer had the benefit of being first and were still nevertheless very good,

so...

- Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you. It was...

But I think podcasting in a way democratizes learning.

Um, you know, it unlocked the potential of all these armchair historians.

I'm one of them who's like, "Hey this is really cool. I'm passionate about this."

You know, anything that allows you to tap into your passion,

you know, I think is gonna be, is gonna be great.

- And the Byzantine Empire's an interesting one. I don't understand

maybe... And, and you articulated this well, but it doesn't get

like the love that it maybe deserves in

history. I think the, the framing of the book you wrote on the

topic is the reason we have Western civilization as we know,

or European-based Western civilization. In a sense because you

have... They... Let's see, maybe you can articulate

the different ways they connected the thread, but one of them is they preserved

the knowledge when the West was when- when Europe was

going through a dark period, they protected Europe in all those ways.

- And then eventually they jumpstart the Renaissance, 'cause people are...

Constantinople's gonna fall. It's inevitable. It's surrounded by hostile

powers, and so they start migrating to Italy.

Um, just at the moment Italy is receptive

to its Greco-Roman past. Uh, Greek had died

out in the West actually as early as the time of Justinian in the 500s, 560s.

They needed... If you wanted to travel between the eastern and western parts of the empire, you

needed, you know, guidebooks with helpful Latin or Greek phrases.

So Latin had died out in the East and Greek had died out in the West

by the 14th century, so you needed Byzantine teachers to be able to

read Plato and Aristotle.

- The book also emphasizes as we've mentioned, a kind of

great man view of history. So celebrating people like Constantine and

Justinian. Or Justinian, who would be your number one top emperor

in the history of the East Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire?

- Hmm, that's a good question. I mean, romantically, it's gotta be

Justinian. He dreams big. He dreams big. He doesn't always get there,

but he dreams big.

- He dreamed and tried to reconquer the Western Roman Empire. I mean,

he was a- a lot of wars of conquest- ... and built the...

- Built the Hagia Sophia. I mean, I think this is... You know, we- we're

interested in the Egyptians

because they built the pyramids. We're not interested in the pyramids because they were built by the

Egyptians, right? It's like what is the great thing that your society has

created? I think the Hagia Sophia is that for the Byzantine Empire. I mean, to

go in it today is still the closest you can come to the fifth century.

You know, and it peeled back the imperial splendor of what it must've been

like. You know, you can still see it. You can smell it. You can feel it.

Like, it's there.

- There's actually a really nice video on YouTube of you going from

I think 50 to 60 years ago. I don't know.

- Seems like that. It does seem like that, yeah. We actually were kicked out.

- Oh, what'd you do?

- My brother and I went.

- What would you do?

- Well, you know, they- as you know, they're very strict as to

guides. They want to promote the local economy, so you have to have a local

guide. You can't go in there and look like you're being a tour guide if- without a

license. You have 15 different organizations. So we

went there early, the- the hour it opened, and we had the entire

cathedral to ourselves. And so we went around and

my brother's holding this camera and I'm, you know, goofily pointing things out.

And one of the guards noticed us, and,

you know, we had to remove ourselves from the building.

- And so one of the things, I mean Justinian was a critical person in this too.

He overhauled the Roman law. The legal system, the law... First of

all, the Roman Empire in general, the East Roman Empire propagated it.

They believed in the law. They held onto the law.

- That's right.

- And that's many of the legal ideas we take for granted

is grounded in everything developed in the Roman Empire and stabilizing the Roman

Empire, so they carried that flag forward.

- Yeah. I mean, outside of Great Britain, all European legal systems are

based on, ultimately based on the Code of Justinian,

and then weirdly, because of the French connections, the State of Louisiana.

Actually, if you want to be a lawyer, you have to pass a different bar in

Louisiana than in everywhere else in the US.

- Why do you think the Western

Roman Empire and then the Eastern Roman Empire collapsed?

Just looking at the grand picture of the history of the Roman Empire, it's

2,200 years starting from the kingdom to the republic.... and

to the imperial period, to the East Roman Empire period.

Why do societies rise and fall?

- That's a really interesting question, and there are probably as many answers as there are different

kingdoms. But just the Roman Empire. My take on it is that the collapse really

starts at the end of the reign of Basil II. So the year is 1025. Basil is the last

monarch of the Macedonian dynasty, which

had seen the empire become the most powerful

state in the Mediterranean, much more powerful and advanced than its Muslim

or Christian neighbors. He had expanded the empire essentially as large as it was

going to be after Justinian. It was wealthy, it was

glittering, it was educated. I mean, courtiers had to memorize the works of Plato by

heart. The emperor, one of his favorite activities was to go, and

he would begin a quote, and you would have to finish it, but you didn't know where he would begin or

what he was thinking that day.

This is kind of what amused him, so they're incredibly

literate. I mean, inside Constantinople itself, the literacy rate was

close to 100, which is...

... crazy. But when he died, the court, which had been this

magnificent court, this bureaucracy which had been running the empire, and which is

vital to the workings of the empire,

they convinced themselves that they could run the empire, they didn't actually need the

emperor. And so they specifically selected weak rulers,

and then that led directly to the disastrous Battle of Manzikert

in 1071, where the Turks enter the story

and defeat, destroy the Roman army under Romanos

Diogenes, who's attempting to break free of the bureaucratic constraints.

And then Anatolia gets flooded by these

nomadic warriors, and the Byzantine gets pushed out on the... So once

they've lost the heartland, they've lost their source of troops, they've

lost their source of taxation, they've lost their source of

food. At this point it's impossible to recover, and the

crusades are an attempt, the First Crusade anyway is an attempt

by the Eastern Emperor Alexius

to recover Asia Minor, more than Jerusalem. He wants to

recover Asia Minor, and obviously it doesn't work out. So

I think at that point, it's on a trajectory that can only end in collapse.

And I think that's, you can see that same kind of thing

in the Viking world that we talked about, this stultifying, bureaucratic, this

inflexibility.

- Combined with the growing threats from all directions.

- Growing threats in all directions. Maybe your own success is beginning to be a

problem. And you can't adapt as quickly, you're not as lean and mean anymore.

There's too many traditions, too many, too much, the weight of history breaks you.

- You sort of mentioned the Macedonian period, the dynasty where it's

where the East Roman Empire flourished once again, but like, they have

gone through so many periods like that, and they lasted.

- That's true. That is true.

- I don't know what the reason is, but you can really

trace the Roman spirit, the Roman state,

the core of whatever that is, through that 2200-year period.

There's a real connection there, a thread that connects all of it, and

so that, there's lessons. That's why we do need to

study the Byzantine Empire for lessons of what makes societies last.

Eventually everything collapses, but like that one lasted-

- That one lasted a long time.

- ... longer. It's easier to last when you're hidden away somewhere, but they were in the middle of everything.

Everybody wanted what they had.

- Yeah, they were getting hit on all sides.

There was, in their entire 2200-year history, there was not a single year they

were at peace on all frontiers.

- And it wasn't always because they were looking for trouble.

- No.

- They're, a lot of it is defensive.

- Yep, including with those pesky Normans.

- Yeah, yeah. On the topic of great men in history,

so where do you land on this great debate? How important are individual humans

versus systems? So what do you think turns the tides of history? Can

individual rulers or individual

warriors or individual humans have the power to change the course of history?

- Yeah, that's the question, isn't it? I...

The short answer is I subscribe to the great man or great woman theory. Um,

I think there's moments I can't imagine the Protestant Reformation. I don't think you can just swap out

Martin Luther and have a Protestant Reformation. I don't think you can swap

out Augustus and have the Roman Empire. I mean, there are... I don't think you

can swap out con- and so on and so forth. I think ultimately these impersonal forces

are insufficient for explaining, because we are people.

We are humans. We are, you know, everything is kind of a relational thing.

And but at the same time,

you know, the moment needs the man, but the man also needs the moment, you know?

- Some of it is timing, some of it is the environment—

- Yeah

- ... the system around it. But yeah, I've just seen so many incredible humans

that persevere through things that would break

basically everybody. And they, the power of the

belief they have. We were talking offline about Napoleon.

Here's a guy who was a student of all the great military generals of the past.

Extremely competent in being able to micromanage every aspect of

military affairs of a nation, but also extremely confident

in his vision of the world and ability

to conquer anyone. And you have the same thing with Genghis Khan.

This boy that came from nothing. Everything was taken away. He

united all of Mongolia, and then conquered most of the known world to them,

including eventually China. And it's like, well, can you possibly have

the great Mongol Empire without Genghis Khan?

- No.

- And the same, and we as Americans ask ourselves that question about the

founders. I mean, George Washington, not to

romanticize it, but to give away power symbolically

is a really powerful statement like we'll mention with Augustus.

There's... When somebody's given power, and in some sense

absolute power, what they do with that power can reverberate through

generations, and that's in the hands of an individual.

- Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's well put.

You know, Cincinnatus in Ancient Rome, same thing.

- What lessons from... This is a big, ridiculous question, but-

... what lessons from all the things we've talked about, the

exploration of the Vikings? What lessons do you learn from Vikings?

- Lessons, lessons to learn from the Viking Age.

- By the way, I should mention one thing. It's a very practical lesson,

That we didn't talk about that you taught me

is the, the Vikings were, like groomed themselves.

- Oh yeah, yeah.

- They were like clean. This is so very surprising to me.

That they like washed themselves and then both the men and the women-

... really took care of themselves. You don't often think about that.

- There was this whole... Like, the Vikings, everyone at this...

Everyone has this very clear picture of what a Viking looked like-

... and also has no idea what a Viking looked like somehow at the same

time. Like, almost everything about them is wrong- ... that we think of.

You know, almost everything about them is wrong. They didn't wear horned helmets.

Um, they, their hair probably was blonde disproportionately, but that

was more because they used lye to dye it because it would kill the

lice. And then they would take baths on a

more regular basis than... I mean, this depended on where you were. So

in England, for example, they were mocked as being soft, which always blows my

mind. Like, really? You're gonna mock the Vikings for being soft?

Because they took too many baths.

But then in the Muslim east one Muslim traveler writes

that they were God's filthiest creatures because of their habits of

kind of disgusting shared bathing.

- Oh, that aspect of it.

Yeah. So, it's not that they didn't bathe, they bathed a little too much and

together.

- They bathed, but they also like would brush their teeth-

... using like recycled water. Like, they would then spit into a cup and pass it to the next guy.

- Got it.

- It was... It's not awesome.

- I read that... This is, this could be propaganda, but I read

that in England there was worry that the Vikings were a bit too attractive to the

women of England because, because of how much the Vikings took care of themselves

in terms of grooming.

- Yeah. In the Danelaw, like you get invaded by these people-

... they're kicking your rear end militarily.

Now they're stealing your women just to insult you as well. You know?

- Yeah. They're... They wash themselves daily.

They've got good teeth. What is this bullshit?

- Whether they need it or not, I know. It really is...

- Why you guys can't have everything?

What are you doing? Anyway, I, so yeah, so one of the lessons I think we need

to draw is shower daily.

- Shower daily.

- Yeah, there you go.

- That's right.

- That's the one thing I forgot.

- That's the lesson, that's the takeaway, that's the big profound takeaway.

- Is there something bigger about the exploration, about the leaps into the unknown?

- Yeah, I think a couple of years ago, there were all these debates about statues.

Make sure we pull these statues down. This person did a bad thing, let's pull these statues.

You know, and, and I always thought they were kind of silly, too. I mean, I understand the point, but...

Like, we don't... When you have a statue of Christopher Columbus, for example, you're not

glorifying every single thing the man ever did and, and all the

bad stuff that comes from this or that. You're

honoring something about him, like the spirit it takes to

cross an ocean not knowing what's on the other side, and, and that's

that spirit of exploration. I think with the Vikings, it's the same.

There's this way you, you approach the world, this fearless, pragmatic

approach. I think as an American too, it's the ultimate,

it's the ultimate rags to riches. It's the myth we tell ourself. You know, the, the man who starts

with nothing and ends up as a sea king, well respected and sung

about by poets. I mean, that's, that's it right there. You know, this is...

And when you're, when you're a society and you stop doing this,

you run into trouble as well.

- Uh, what about the, the Byzantine Empire? What lessons you draw from them?

- This is a much... That's a much bigger one. Um-

- 1000-year history.

- 1000-year history, and it's also what I think is so cool about the

Byzantines is that in the ways that they are like us and the way that they are unlike

us. In some ways, they're very analogous to the United

States. The kind of the polyglot nature of their inhabitants, you know, the,

their roots, the Greco-Roman, Judeo-Christian roots. And yet

it was a place of incredible alien

things as well. Men sitting on top of pillars. You know, a king, an

incredibly hierarchical system which abhorred democracy.

Um, so I think it's a way, it's a route we could have taken... um,

and it's the way they handled things. Immigration, inflation,

war, peace, diplomacy. I think there are lessons there for us.

- Yeah. Yeah, I think from the Vikings, the lessons are a bit more poetic.

The lessons from the Byzantine Empire are quite literal, like how to run a

government, how to run the law, how to-

- Yeah. How to build a stable society.

And honestly, like you can count on the fingers of one hand,

states that have lasted a thousand years, right? Byzantium and Venice, I think.

And Venice was an offshoot of the Byzantines. Like that's

a gov- for a government to last a thousand years is a rare thing. Like, we should be taking a

look at this. Like how? And how much of that is due to Augustus?

Can we give him any credit for this? He built the system.

- Yeah. But there was a lot, like you mentioned a lot of people along

the way from Constantine to Justinian, the

Basils. There's so many emperors along the way

that revolutionized and then restabilized the empire after it

was almost falling apart.

- Oh, yeah. You know what else too though? Like what happens to a human

when you give that human

essentially absolute power? 'Cause the Byzantine emperor stood halfway there.

I mean, he was more autocratic than anything other than, I don't know, the pope

that we, you know, have in the modern world.

What happens when you give someone that level of power? Like, I love Justinian, but

I wouldn't have liked to know him.

You know, I wouldn't like to be one of his subjects.

I love Basil I, but the man was a bloodthirsty tyrant. Like,

I think it shows you what happened. What is it? Lord Acton, "Absolute power corrupts, and

absolute power corrupts absolutely." Like that's quite clear throughout Byzantine

histories, and it's a long, long list.

- And as technologies become more powerful,

absolute power becomes potentially more destructive, so-

- Yeah, it's more absolute.

- It's more absolute.

- You know?

- And it's, I mean, this is the project for the 21st century,

the 20th and the 21st centuries post-Industrial Revolution, post the computer

technological revolution, post nuclear weapons discovery.

How do we construct societies that last like the Byzantine

Empire did a thousand years? It's just like a new challenge for us.

There's gonna be history books written about us

'cause like nuclear weapons, you know, 80 years ago,

it's like Greek fire that you can apply to the entirety of human civilization.

And so— ... there's gonna be good history books, and I hope there's gonna be these

stories about the American empire, about the rest

that sound similar to Byzantine Empire, um, versus the Viking age. It only lasted-

... three centuries.

- I mean, I suppose the good news is it can be done, right? Or it has been done.

- It has been done. What gives you hope about the future, having

looked at the deep history of us? What gives you hope?

- During grad school, I was reading Frederick Douglass' autobiography,

and he said, "I could sit with Plato and Cicero, and they would not flinch."

You know, by which he meant that the great conversation was for everyone, no matter what your

skin color, no matter what your level of income, and even no matter your intelligence, you know?

And I think that's actually what, that's why

history comes alive for me, is because these are not alien people.

You had asked how similar are ancient people to us psychologically.

You know, and what their goals were for life. And I think the short answer

is they were identical to us, which is why we can understand them. It's,

why you should read things. It's why you should read the Meditations

because this is not just some

dry whatever talking to himself in a culture that you cannot

understand and can never recreate. It's a human talking about being human,

you know? And I think human nature has not changed, and I don't think human nature will

change. So we are flawed and broken, and

we're—that's the human condition. We're gonna be flawed and broken.

So I don't think... I actually think that's the great,

that's the great question of history. If you wanna understand

history, you have to know about human nature. What is

our human nature? If you think it's a blank slate, and we can kind of educate ourselves to a

utopia or, you know, like the Marxists said then, okay.

Hasn't really worked out, but okay. If you believe we're basically bad,

there's a whole set of things that come with that. If you believe we're basically good, there's a whole set of... Right?

So, you won't learn the appropriate lesson if you misdiagnose human nature.

- Yeah. I think the diagnosis that you're kinda hinting at is

seemingly the most accurate one, which is we're flawed.

A mix of good, a mix of evil, capacity for both.

- That's right. That's right. I mean, I have to teach my kids to be

kind. I don't have to teach my kids to be unkind. I mean, one of those is natural, and

one is not. I think my kids can become kind, you know?

- The capacity.

- The capacity.

- Is there.

- Humans have the capacity for much great things.

But not perfection. It has to come outside of us.

- Well, what is it? That line of

all of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking up at the stars.

And so you gotta teach as many of us and

to look up at the stars and dream. Because once you

allow yourself to dream of a better world, you try,

you try. Like the Vikings did, go out there. Don't try to

not to murder your neighbor, but if you do, all of us have, of course.

- If you do, there's Greenland. There's Greenland.

- There's Greenland. Thank you for everything you've done for the world. Thank you for the podcast you

put out there. Thank you for your incredible books, and thank you for the conversation

today.

- Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity. Thanks a lot.

- Thanks for listening to this conversation with Lars Brownworth. To support this podcast,

please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to

contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.

And now, let me leave you with some words from the Volsunga Saga,

a 13th century Icelandic prose epic that tells the story

of the Volsunga clan, a legendary Norse dynasty of heroes and dragon slayers.

"Fear not death, for the hour of your doom is set,

and none may escape it." And another powerful quote from this saga is,

"Better to fight and fall than to live without hope."

Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.