It sounds like you train fasted.

>> I listen to how I feel. That's exactly

what I do. So, what what your podcast

guest and and the researchers are

talking about is exactly there are times

when I wake up in the morning and I'm

like, I need to eat something before I

work out.

>> And I do um but I often times do train

fasted one because I am practicing

intermittent fasting again. But I do it

I'm not like starving myself. And like I

said, the reason there's multiple

reasons I do it. One reason is because

it really did help me lose the belly fat

which is the visceral fat which is like

the worst kind of fat you can have and

we can talk more about that. Um but the

second reason is I love the cognitive

benefits I have in the morning with it

and it's the main reason I do it and so

there are many times when I do train

fasted but I am not out running 15

miles. Most of my my like I said my

sessions are about an hour long and am I

taking a little bit of a performance hit

with the high intensity? probably

probably yes but it's not much to matter

for me and you do burn a little bit more

fat if you train fasted I mean that's

known um you will if it is a longer

session you will take an import

performance enhancement hit that is also

known right so I think it really does

come down to like what is your goal how

do you feel and and then you kind of go

with that and I I completely agree like

there are times when you know I'm on my

cycle and I feel fine and I'm working

out just fine And there are time other

times that I'm like I don't feel good.

Like I'm going to I'm going to take it

easier. I still train. I just you listen

to your body. And I that's a pretty easy

>> I think rule of thumb. Sometimes people

like to complicate things, you know. I

don't there's lots of reasons why. I

don't we don't need to get into that.

>> I have theories. Yeah. I have theories,

but they're not important right now.

>> No, it's not important. Yeah. So, so

yeah, I do I do train fasted and it is

um for me it is has helped me

tremendously change my body composition.

Like I said, I'm in a different part of

my life than perhaps a 30-year-old woman

is, right? So, when I was 30, I mean,

like I I didn't have to train fasted. It

was it was it was easy to keep, you

know, the the belly fat, the visceral

fat lower. Um, hormonal changes are do

play a role in the way your body so

estrogen plays a role in telling your

body how to store fat. So, subcutaneous

fat would be the kind of fat that you

can just like pinch, right? the the fat

that we see, the visceral fat. That's

that deep fat that's lining your organs.

It's often belly fat, you know, and it's

lining the intestines, the liver, you

know, it's it's it's it's an it's almost

like an endocrine organ. I mean, because

it is secretreting hormones. It's

secretreting inflammatory factors. It's

metabolically active. It's constantly

breaking down triglycerides. It's

associated with double the increased

risk, double the risk of early death.

Um, people that have high visceral fat

have 44% higher chance of having cancer.

Many different types of cancers. Wow.

>> It's huge. It's huge, you know, and and

and of course insulin resistance is the

number one problem with visceral fat,

right? And I'd love to to talk about

that, but um if you want, I mean, we can

we can get into that. Yeah, it's it's so

>> with the visceral fat and like I said,

you know, visceral fat is something if

you really directly want to measure it,

you do a DEXA scan. But, you know, for

the average person that isn't going to

go out and do a DEXA scan, waist

circumference is a proxy. It's used in a

lot of studies. So, women that have a

waist circumference of 35 in or above

are considered to have a higher amount

of visceral fat. Men that have a waist

circumference of 40 in or above are

considered to have higher amount of

visceral fat. It's also that belly fat.

Like, you can you can you just know,

right? Um, interestingly, like 70% of

women over the age of 50 have high

visceral fat. 50% of men over the age of

50 do you know again coming down to

women go through menopause estrogen

plays an important role in telling the

body you know to store the fat

subcutaneously rather than viscerally

deep around organs and so as women

transition to pmenopause you know the

years before menopause and menopause it

their estrogen goes down and that does

change the way the body stores fat and

any woman that's going through either of

those stages knows And it's also why you

see often women over the age of 50 with

more belly fat, right? I mean, that's

something that I think it's it's hard to

deny, but um it's it's one of the

reasons why I kind of went back to

practicing intermittent fasting because

there's a there's a couple of ways that

you can really powerfully lose visceral

fat. And one of them is doing aerobic

exercise, high-intensity interval

training also really powerfully can do

it, but also being in a caloric deficit.

And I think when you start to get the

combination of both, that's what really

worked for me. It's crazy how quickly

you can gain it based on your diet as

well. So it is different from the

subcutaneous fat in many ways. I

mentioned it's secretreting these

inflammatory molecules. It's, you know,

hormones, but it's also constantly

breaking down triglycerides into free

fatty acids. And the location of it is

very dangerous because it's right

surrounding the liver, right? It's this

deep organ fat and that's very close to

the portal vein. And so you're

constantly getting this sort of

mainlinining free fatty acids to the

liver. And visceral fat is very

different from subcutaneous fat because

it doesn't respond to insulin like

subcutaneous fat does. In other words,

when you have a meal, you eat a

carbohydrate meal and you basically your

body increases insulin to help take it

up glucose into your liver uh muscle

atapost tissue lipolysis shuts down,

right? It's like, okay, no longer am I

going to break down these fats. It's

time to use this energy, right? Visceral

fat doesn't respond to insulin. So, it

just keeps going, right? And these free

fatty acids because they're going right

to the liver, uh it's it's essentially

antagonizing the insulin receptors. So,

it causes insulin receptors to become

more resistant to insulin. And this is

part of why people with high visceral

fat, by the way, you can gain visceral

fat without gaining a pound. And we can

talk about those studies like people

people are skinny and can have high

amounts of visceral fat. You've you've

heard of like lean metabolically

unhealthy but lean individuals. Those

people exist and so you can have a high

amount of visceral fat but not really

look like you do. So um when you know

obviously the insulin resistance is a

problem for many reasons but it also

plays a role in those energy crashes

that you experience right and that's

kind of like some of the first signs of

insulin resistance actually have to do

with what you're feeling. So we talked

about lethargy, right? So you know the

inflammation that's being generated from

these this visceral fat constantly

making these, you know, pro-inflammatory

compounds are an it's an energy sink,

right? So you do constantly feel tired,

but also because your cells are becoming

insulin resistant.

When you have a high glucose meal and

you're not responding, the body kind of

overcompensates and produces more

insulin. So it's like I we got to get

this blood glucose out of our system,

right? It can cause a lot of damage if

it sits around there. And so you make

more insulin and then what happens is

you your blood glucose goes way low

because it was like this

overcompensation, right? And then you

feel a crash. You feel like this crash

and that signals to the you know

hypothalamus part of the brain. Uh I

need energy, right? So then you you sort

of crave you get those cravings for

those calorically energetic dense foods.

What I'm talking about is like the

experience of like,

>> you know, insulin resistance. And what's

interesting is that you can cause

someone to gain visceral fat and and

their brain can become insulin

resistant. So we think a lot about

insulin resistance in the muscle, liver,

your brain also can become insulin

resistance quite quickly actually. So um

insulin is very important in the brain

for a lot of reasons as you know but you

know a couple of the things relative to

what we're relevant to what we're

talking about would be one is it does

act on the hypothalamus and help you

know tell it to basically um stop eating

be satiated like I took a meal in okay

like I'm going to be satiated but it

also plays a role in energy storage and

telling the the body how to store the

energy and so when your brain becomes

insulin resistant it's not doing that

and so you're not being satiated so you

eat more and you're storing the fat more

viscerally. And there was a study that

was published actually quite recently. I

covered this in a in a recent

newsletter. It was a really interesting

study because it was healthy young men

and researchers put them on a

little bit of a calorically dense. So it

was like they were eating 1,200 to 1500

more calories a day and it was high

saturated fat, high sugar. So it was a

processed foods, ultrarocessed foods

like you know ultimate right

>> that's a lot of extra calories

>> a lot of extra calories in five days it

is but what happened was their they did

cause their brain to become insulin

resistant and they didn't gain weight

but they gained visceral fat and they

started gaining fat around their liver

and that's something that happens as

well because visceral fat is surrounding

liver you're getting a lot of free fatty

acids and they're going right to the

liver so the liver has to store it right

so you get this non-alcoholic you know

fatty fatty liver but and that happened

after 5 days. I mean without gain

>> in otherwise young healthy

>> Yeah. but you know they were eating a

lot of calories extra calories.

>> Yeah. That's like an at 1,200 that's

like a half a pizza

extra above your maintenance calories.

>> That's probably what they were doing.

They were eating lots of Well, they were

eating like saturated fat and refined

sugar. So

>> burritos and French fries.

>> Yeah. I mean obviously if you're going

to do the study you want to kind of do

it to a degree where you're going to see

some change, right? So, so maybe like

maybe it's not going to happen in five

days if you're if you're only eating 500

more calories a day, but over time you

will be gaining visceral fat, right? So,

it's not going to be the same degree.

It's something to be concerned about.

It's something to think about and also

because you can gain it and not really

even know it like you know without

gaining a pound. And there are other

things that cause it not just you know

eating too many calories or diet

composition. I mean you mentioned

cortisol. I mean, chronic elevated

cortisol makes you store the fat around

around, you know, visceral fat. Sleep

loss. I mean, there's also studies

showing that you take healthy men, sleep

deprive them for a couple of weeks, I

think four hours, they're getting four

hours of sleep a night, they can start

gaining visceral fat, I mean, pretty

rapidly with only like a pound, gaining

a pound of weight. So, again, it's like

not necessarily something that you're

going to see on the scale, but it's

happening, right? And it's affecting

your short-term mood. I mean, how you

feel, your energy, it's affecting, you

know, the way you're eating. It's a

vicious cycle because you start to eat

more calories, right? And then it just

becomes this vicious cycle of that you

start to gain more visceral fat.

>> Could you tell us what the structure of

the intermittent fasting is for you?

Does that mean skipping breakfast,

skipping lunch, skipping dinner? Because

I know a number of people are sort of

getting drawn back to intermittent

fasting after a couple years of it

getting beat up on like not the best way

to lose fat or it is a I think it's a

terrific way to do the sorts of things

that you're describing and I'm learning

today more about the positive things it

can do. um for insulin sensitivity and

so forth. If you're on a bout of

intermittent fasting, are you doing it

by the clock? Are you doing it by feel?

What does it look like?

>> For me, it it it really does depend on

the day. And I really do try to stop

eating 3 hours before I go to bed. It

doesn't always happen, you know, with

family obligations, social obligations,

but it's the habit that's important,

right? So, intermittent fasting, you

know, it's more than just one

intervention. As I mentioned, it's a

behavioral tool that you can use to

limit your calorie intake with actually

without actually having to count all the

calories, which some people like to do,

some people don't, right? So, it's a

tool, but also it's really important for

a metabolic switch, as you mentioned,

insulin sensitivity. And the metabolic

switch is something that Dr. Mark Matson

coined, and I love it because I feel

like, you know, thinking about

intermittent fasting in that way makes

it a little more clear as to the

benefits of it. It depends on the meal

you have and how much exercise you do,

right? But on average, let's say 11 12

hours to deplete your liver glycogen

levels. And once that happens, you do

start to burn fat and use fatty acids as

fuel and make ketone body. So you go

into ketogenesis, right? And that's a

metabolic switch, metabolic flexibility.

You're not you're going from using

carbohydrates as fuel to using fatty

acids and making ketone bodies as fuel.

And that's something that, you know,

throughout human evolution was

ingrained, right? Like we didn't always

have access to Uber Eats and Instacart

and you just at a swipe you get food,

right? I mean there were many times when

you know people had to

>> not eat because they couldn't forge

their foods maybe the time of year or

they couldn't hunt their food because

they didn't get a win or whatever. I

don't know. So this metabolic

flexibility is something that's really

ingrained in in our in our our DNA in a

sense, right? I mean, one of the reasons

I like to do that is the ketone

production. And why is that? You know,

ketones are really clean. They're clean,

a clean way to burn energy. So, they

generate less oxidative stress, less

oxidative products, but they also are

energetically favorable in that it takes

less energy to use them to make energy

than glucose does. So, it takes more

energy to use glucose as energy than it

does ketones. But, they're also a

signaling molecule. So, it's a way for

the body, you know, to signal to other

parts of the body like, hey, this is a

stressful time. There's no food. I'm,

you know, burn. I'm I'm in ketosis. Um,

let's let's make you stronger, right?

Because that's kind of what evolution

wants. Like, if you're not able to find

or eat food, you have to be stronger to

be able to do it, right? And so, that's

that's kind of at the I say core of of

this metabolic switch and why it's

important. And I think that I really

like Mark Matson being the pioneer in

this and as a neuroscientist really

looking at the benefits in the brain as

well. You know these ketones like beta

hydroxybutyrate are activating you know

growth factors like brain derived

neurotro trophic factor in the brain as

you know it's very important for you

know learning memory you know synapse

formation and stuff that's hugely

important for um neuroplasticity. So,

it's activating beneficial compounds

like that. And again, um it it it's not

going to happen if you're never going

into this metabolic switch. And there's

other ways to get there, right? So, you

can limit your your food, go into this

ketosis, right? Where you're basically

depleting your liver glycogen or you can

exercise a lot, right? So, your energy

expenditure goes up. So, there's there's

different ways to get to this metabolic

switch. It doesn't necessarily have to

be intermittent fasting. Got And I'm

telling you this because you you I want

to tell you why I'm I'm sort of back

back on the intermittent fasting. And by

the way, it's not for everyone. Like I

said, I mean, I think that you can find

other ways to get this metabolic switch.

And um for me, intermittent fasting

works. And so what I do typically is I

will do most of the time my fast my

workouts will be fasted. Not all the

time. It it does depend on how I feel.

>> What time do you typically wake up?

>> So I wake up like between 6:00 and 7:00.

And if I didn't have a family, like, you

know, getting my son ready and I would

probably work out right away, but I

don't end up working out until like

8:30.

So, I'm, you know, and

>> still pretty early. What time do you go

to sleep, if you don't mind me asking?

>> I'm I'm asleep like I'm asleep by 10:00.

I usually in bed at 9:00 takes and an

hour of just like, you know, hanging out

and

>> yeah. So, so um or 9:30 sometimes, but

yeah, usually 10:00 is when I'm

sleeping. That's my my bedtime. And uh

so I do stop eating I try to stop eating

by 7 p.m. But typically my first meal on

it depends on the day, but it'll usually

be like around 11:00, maybe sometimes

12. If I'm doing a podcast, it'll be

later. And um I do like to be fasted in

the morning because the cognitive

benefits is is really what I'm

interested in with that metabolic

switch. And it does come down to ketones

and I know that u Mark Matson's talked a

lot about this. I had him on my podcast

a couple year a few years ago actually.

I learned so much. But the ketones like

beta hydroxybutyrate are increasing

GABA. They're like balancing the

glutamate, the you know excitatory

neurotransmitter with the inhibitory

one, GABA. And I think the increasing

GABA is what helps me and what I love

the most because it does help I think

quiet down some of the other I don't

know chitter chatter in my brain and

help me focus because it's like somehow

the GABA is calming in a way. I don't I

don't know exactly. You could probably

describe it better than I can. All I

know is that I really like it. And so in

the mornings, I like to be, you know, I

like to be fasted. I like to be

cognitively aware. It's when I get most

of my productive work done

>> and I feel smarter. So I'm doing it. And

that's why I typically like to shift my

breakfast to later. Now, I do I would

say some days I do only eat two meals

where I am on honestly I'm skipping the

quote unquote breakfast,

>> but uh some days I do have three meals

and you know oftent times they're like

different sized meals, right? And

usually my if I do have three meals, the

the the third one will be the in between

the first meal and the second meal will

be like a very like a half a or a three4

of a turkey burger or something. So it's

it's mostly protein and it's not heavy.

>> But so I would say I'm you know usually

11 to 7 probably is when I'm eating my

meals most most days. Some days it's you

know I I fast for a shorter period of

time.

>> Some days I wake up in the morning

>> because I I did too early of of like I

you know I stopped eating like like four

or five hours before bed and I'm like I

need to eat and I guess what I eat and

then I work out and it's like that's you

know you kind of just listen to to what

your body's doing. Actually, Mark Matson

just published a study very very

recently showing that he did a I think

he was doing a 52 intermittent fasting

protocol where it's like two days you're

getting pretty severe caloric

restriction like you're eating one meal

but it's like 500 calories you know for

that for the day and it's twice two days

two days out of the week the other five

days you're eating normal and compared

that to calorie like eating eating like

a healthy diet and they were somewhat

calorie restricted but not quite as much

as the people that were doing the

fasting and they had the fasting group

had massive cognitive benefit. It's like

20% improvement in a battery of tests

that were done.

>> He attributes that to the ketones and

the effect of ketones on

>> GABA. He attributes it to the ketones

and like can you get that to some degree

with caloric restriction? Probably.

Especially the more severe caloric

restriction you do. You can if we're

talking about weight loss, caloric

restriction is key, right? You have to

have that. If we're talking about the

cardiovascular reset, like caloric

restriction, if you're eating meals

right before bed, you're not going to

get that. Like that's those studies have

been done. And I think, you know,

Courtney Peterson was some of the one of

the first ones to really show that

effect on blood pressure, you know, like

really significant. In fact, if you if

you do early timerestricted eating and

stop eating, you know, I don't know how

early in the day it was, maybe 6 p.m.

Maybe it was 8:00 p.m. But, you know,

there was like a blood pressure drop

that was like 10, you know, 10 I think

was um uh points or something

millimeters of mercury.

>> Significant.

>> What is it? Is it

>> Yeah.

>> So, I mean, that's very significant.

It's on it's on magnitude of what you'd

see with like some of the firstline, you

know, drugs that are used to treat

hypertension. I would never say for

someone to do that, but I'm just saying

it's significant and that's not

something that you typically see if

you're eating, you know, fewer calories,

but you're eating constantly throughout

the day.

>> So, I do think there are special

benefits that can be had, but again,

it's also a tool that people use. I use

it as a tool as well. I don't like to

count calories. like I don't you know

some people do and that's fine then you

know that's that's the way you can you

can do it but I like it for the

metabolic switch as well. Um, if I were

an endurance athlete running, you know,

10, 14 miles a day, I wouldn't have to

do this. That would be my metabolic

switch. And it's not that I'm not

metabolically flexible. I mean, I do I

think you can just training itself, you

know, does to some degree help with

metabolic flexibility, right? The

ability to switch between burning

glucose and carbohydrates and and then

burning burn using fat, fat, and fatty

acids as your energy source. It's that I

really I want that. I want that real

switch to be on and I want it to be on

for a little bit of of time and then I

want to turn it off by eating. You know,

I'm not starving myself. And I think you

can go too far with exercise and with

fasting.

>> The problems with fasting and the people

that are like, "Oh, fasting is terrible

for you." I mean, it comes down to one,

they were all about it's like the weight

loss is not just due to intermittent

fasting itself. It's due to calorie

restriction. Guess what? They were

right. They were right. Number two,

they're afraid of losing muscle. And I

think we have enough data now that it's

if you're training, if you're doing

resistance training, you're not going to

be losing muscle. Now, maybe you won't

gain as much as if you were eating more

protein, but um you could you could just

eat more protein um within the window

that you're eating and be fine, right?

So, I think that's the other thing that

people are worried about is muscle loss,

including myself. And I train so much

now and it just works well for me and I

feel good and it's like this clean

feeling. you feel cognitively sharp and

it works. And I think that the metabolic

switch is something to not be scared of

as long as you're not again going to the

extreme, right? And if you don't want to

train while you're fast, don't train

while you're fasted. You don't have to.

You know, I I think there's a little bit

of an added benefit that works for me in

terms of burning fat, which is what I,

you know, particularly visceral fat. And

to me, that that's that's what works

well. But um you can obviously like if

you're training hard and a lot and

really fasting maybe that's too much.

It's too much of a stress. So you have

to kind of figure it out for