do you really think I was deliberately

partti and breaking the rules but it's

all about leading by example ISM sorry

but to say it was a party is a complete

travesty seeing that photo when one of

my friends can go to their grandmother's

funeral is the most enraging thing I

think all Gatherings should have been

Bann at number 10 because I think what

do you mean Gatherings Gatherings with

alcohol and music and Cake you should

never have allowed that to happen I

apologize for that Johnson the former

prime minister of the UK whose Reign

included brexit Co and the Ukraine war

he's one of the world's most famous

politicians on this point of brexit how

did David Cameron react when you said

you're going to vote leave he said if

you come out and support leave I will

you up forever but if you support remain

you can have a top five job in the

cabinet but is that not a bit corrupt

and is that how the jobs are dished out

in the government at the moment look I'm

sad to say that this probably been the

way politics has been since the dawn of

time and then this letter you wrote

about the decision to leave or stay

within the EU which was unpublished you

seemed torn so do do you regret brexit

well the next big thing was the pandemic

there was a lot of stuff we we didn't

know I I think almost certainly was a

lab accident they they were looking at

engineering viruses and ways that they

could manipulate it sadly something went

wrong when you talk about lockdowns you

refer to them as Bonkers which is

strange hearing it from the guy that put

the rules in place well did the benefits

of lockdown outweigh the very very

severe Damage Done to kids what do you

think the answer to that question is

honestly I think I just wanted to ask a

few more things Trump or camalo who's

the best for international relations how

many kids do you have Charlotte Owen

you're not related to you and then you

have quite a distinct Persona people

describe you as being a buffoon when I

first saw you I thought you were a

parody from Bose selector is it

calculated well to get people's interest

in politics you got a sugar the pill but

also your mother said you had certain

mechanisms to cope with pain because

your mother is sent to a psychiatric

facility when you were 10 I read There

was physical violence in the house and

then at 14 your parents get divorced yes

we were in Somerset my father told us

and I was look I was cross and said you

know so so why did you have us

then you

know

[Music]

um this has always blown my mind a

little bit 53% of you that listen to the

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[Music]

much

Boris Ste what do I need to understand

about your earliest years to understand

the man that you are today I think

the key

thing is

my

wonderful happy very kind of paginating

childhood um in the company of my

siblings the key fact was that after a

18 months of existence my sister Rachel

was born and ever after it was just a

constant struggle to

keep the the pretense of Primacy with my

with my siblings but I think it's it is

probably true to say that

healthy

incessant

sibling interaction competition whatever

you want to call it

rivalry um definitely played a part in

my formation and we used to make fun of

it too we used to think it was rather

pathetic we all knew that there was a

culture of trying to win so we used to

say oh little baby wants to win and so

we were kind of we competed but we

also deprecated the the competition at

that age um say before the age of 10 how

does that manifest in terms of a feeling

because you can in hindsight say okay I

was competitive but how did it feel you

know CU you it felt like fun but but

this idea that Rachel came along and

then you were vying for attention and

competition with her how did how does

that feel when you're under the age of

10 because your your your father at

least was very very busy as a man so I'm

presuming he wasn't necessarily so

present um I was reading you moved house

32 times in 14 years yeah but that okay

I mean he was

um but really I think I you know I speak

for all of my siblings now when I say

that you really couldn't have had a more

loving caring you know they they both of

them I mean you they're both very busy

both my mother and father mother was

painter um my father yeah writer did a

huge number of things but they did

invest a lot of time in US I mean really

a lot it sounded like you had a rough

sort of first 10 years of life because

you also had glue ear which is uh which

made you deaf a little yes well I don't

know I think we need to look very care

the I I definitely had adenoids and I

had tonsilitis and I spent a lot of time

in s Barts and had my adenoids out my T

and everything like that and I did have

glue here but it but my my my

deafness there's no trace of it now

particularly and I kind of wonder

whether it was in fact

a a a cunning means to avoid my mother's

questions and I I think look I mean I

don't know it may be that I wasn't as

deaf as as all that you know what I mean

would you ever do that if your mother

was asking you something you didn't

actually want to engage and I don't

think I'm that coming you what I mean

not at8 years

old your mother Charlotte um she had

four children you were the oldest of

those four

um she seems to be a really important

character in your life In fact when I

opened up the first couple of pages of

the book you you dedicate the book in

memory of of Charlotte your mother I do

she was an artist she had many paint

paintings of of of her children but also

other things I saw some of those

paintings I did some research on those

paintings um but one of the sort of

really pivotal moments in her OT

bringing is that she suffered from

obsessive compulsive disorder she did

yeah you're what 10 years old when your

mother is an uh put as an impatient in a

Psy psychiatric hospital and you're

apart for eight months something like

that yes what what impact does that have

on you in terms of

shaping shaping the Boris that we know

today if

any I mean I remember it all very very

well

and it's hard to say exactly what impact

it it had on me but I think

what certainly happened was that all

four of us all four of the children that

um that my mother had we definitely

kind of coagulated as a as a group

because it was a tough time there were

well there were aspects of that were

were tough because you know she she

wasn't always there and so I think it

did breed a certain kind of group

solidarity and she always kind of blamed

herself for not being there for the8

months whatever period it was and I I

remember feeling very strongly that that

was unfair and on and that

she actually you know did an amazing job

and you know you couldn't you couldn't

have asked for more did you notice her

anything unusual about her behavior

before she was yes so the OCD thing is

absolutely right she did have that and

you know it was it was very difficult

and I'm sure people who are watching

this know exactly what it is but she

lots of

different patterns of behavior one of

the one of them was was about ESS so so

so the so the she she wash her

hands and then um she she would realize

in order to turn the tap off she'd have

to touch the the the foret the spiger

and and and she didn't want to do that

because that would make her hands dirty

again she thought but you know this is a

very well-known symptom and she and she

totally got over it I she totally got

over it she got through it why was she

sent to a psychiatric facility

um well I guess because she's I

think that's a JT good question I don't

know really know the answer I think I

think

she

probably said that she thought she could

benefit

from

therapy

and that's what she and my father

decided to was a best way forward but I

I I honestly don't know the answer to

that and who looked after you while she

was in that facility at 10 years old

well my father was there and we had uh a

wonderful series of opair girls and

nannies and and so on and so forth and

at 14 years old they they were all great

too but you know I don't I don't you

know I don't want to give the impression

which would not be fair that my mother

kind of um was

absent for long periods or wasn't a a

presence in our lives because she really

was it was more her words I saw her

doing an interview where she was talking

about um her belief that you had certain

mechanisms to cope with the pain of her

going to the facility for eight months

but then also the divorce when you were

14 I thought those ages that sort of

puberty age where you're figuring

yourself

out to get such a jolt of bad news is

yeah I think that's I mean classically

yes and look I'm not going to I think

you're on to it you you know there's

there's there was an element of of

self-defense that then that you know

many kids in in my our position then

develop um but I do insist that they

both remained remarkable parents we know

it wasn't like we were suddenly cut a

drift but by either of them on the

contrary

self-defense well yeah I don't know I

mean I'm quoting her on on me by the way

so I'm quoting I'm quoting you qu

quoting her um you there so you yeah but

I mean you know I don't it didn't it

didn't occur to me at the time yeah I

don't think it can for a 14-year-old but

in hindsight as an as a man you go okay

that was I create a p know but I mean

but

maybe I I've got nothing else to compare

it to right um you know you're growing

up anyway you're becoming more

self-reliant you got to do things to

yourself um so I think so go back to

where it was with my my brothers and

sisters I think certainly you know it

was another thing that drove us all

together why self-defense and how did

that self-defense manifest in terms of

behavior I

just I'd be the worst type of um what

let me think well how did I how did I

how how did my self-defense manifest I

suppose I

became yes unquestionably it was

painful so how did I protect myself

against that well one obvious thing to

do which I suppose we all do and I think

I found the best therapy for every type

of pain emotional

pain is to try to Lose Yourself in your

work emotional pain is is about a lot

about it's about self-esteem so so like

with when when when parents split up um

you know the shock is well you you can't

love us that much but if you're doing

this right that's the that's the what

it's all about which is not true of

course but that's what the children

that's what children feel they feel it's

their failure there's something wrong

with

them and that's not true but that's how

kids feel I suppose to protect myself

against that like I had a natural Avenue

for to build up

my self-esteem and that was academic

work um that kind of thing but again you

know another I suppose another type of

of competition and it I'm it is a good

therapy work is a work is a is a great

reliever or distraction

well depends on your sort of theory of

psychology but

um I think it

both both why did they divorce do you

know I think formerly speaking what had

happened was that um you know my mother

has simply decided she wanted to make

another life and and she you know she

she found someone wonderful and and all

all the rest of it um

but I think that my father um

and and

mother the weird thing about their

divorce was that they both continued to

be very strongly affectionate towards

each other

and you know I'm again I'm not trying to

minimize

the psychological importance of any of

this stuff for us as as

kids but that was immensely fortifying

because it was so obvious that it wasn't

like they were at War I mean you know

they had a big bus stops but it was we

felt that there was a

real residue of of love and affection

between them even if even if it was I

mean I think the way the way we

explained it to ourselves was that there

was still a residue of love and

affection but that it was just

practically impossible for them to to

continue and so that was that was how we

rationalized it and um they both found

other people and and and were very happy

you you say Bust ups that from

everything that I've read There was

physical violence in the household when

you were

younger yeah well this is this is

something that um has been alleged by uh

sadly by one of my biographers um so

sort of pomping to say one of my

biographers um some guy wrote a book um

and put that stuff in you know what I

can tell you is I have no direct

knowledge of of what he said um I don't

want to get into it because I don't want

to be disrespectful to my mother's

memory and I I certainly don't want to

say anything that would cause pain or

embarrassment to my father so but I can

what I can say is I had as a child no

direct knowledge of it myself what did

um their relationship teach you that

marriage and love

was

they they they so they met at

University um they clearly loved each

other and I think if you ask my siblings

they'll they'll they'll tell you

that so that you know it was upsetting

when when they split up because do you

remember the day they told you they yeah

yeah I do I do I do I do it was it was

uh we were we were in we were in

Somerset and my father said that we all

had to go and and up by the the the gate

towards the engine shed so he went and

stood by the gate towards the engine

shed and and we were told this you know

sad news what did he say I don't

remember exactly I don't remember

exactly but I was look I was cross and

and and said you know so so why did you

have us then because I thought

well you

know um

as you know I

think it is upsetting

and kids do take you know kids take it

upon themselves right and so they do

they do think that there must be some

fault or mistake in that in

themselves and that isn't that isn't

true I mean you know you

it's very important for kids not to

blame themselves for for these things

and I think

that it's you know back to the point I

was making earlier on with you

um I

think you know you do need

to feed the

the your

self-esteem and you need to get yourself

back up again and so work was my it was

my way of doing it I I could see the um

the emotion in your face when you talk

about that moment as if you were

teleported back to that moment for a

second

yeah yeah I mean it may look I the the

actual the truth is I'm I'm now told in

retrospect that that is what I said I

don't personally remember it you

remember how it

feels yeah but look I mean yes but I

really wouldn't want to over egg it

because my parents were incred kind to

each other after that you know when you

do this and you throw the the coal in

the air I was just stoking the fness of

my of my self-esteem yeah yeah you um

you have quite a distinct Persona you're

I mean much of where you sort of first

came to public knowledge was on the TV

show have I got news for you yeah I know

I think the BBC very they live in

permanent state of horror about what

they did that because you know I think

that's one of the reasons that that they

I think they they have a terrible sense

of corporate guilt that they Unleashed

this thing

is is there a link between your persona

comedic kind of you know people often

describe you as being a bit of a buffoon

I actually thought you were a this is

just being honest because I feel like

it's important to be honest to someone

if you've said it behind their back but

I when I first saw you on the screen I

was a very young man I must have been I

don't know 14 and I thought you were a

parody from Bo selector like I thought I

thought you were I thought it was a

parody but then I came to learn you know

when you did the London May thing ET

that you were a politician and who you

were and where you'd come from but the

out the out external person is very

atypical of a politician right and your

general comedic sense that shows up in

the book a lot um you were very comedic

on have I got news how I have I got news

for you um is that at all linked when

when did that behavior show up because

there was two points of reference that I

was mulling one is things your sister

said about where you sort of learned

that comedy was a useful device um and

the second one is something Jimmy Carr

actually said to me he said to me that

um he goes if you ever meet anyone

comedic or a comedian don't ask them if

they're depressed ask them which one of

their parents they were trying to cheer

up or win favor from and I I wondered if

all yeah and I think I don't know I I

think that um one of the things I've

tried to do in politics is to get people

interested and one of the things I'm

trying to do and Unleashed which is

unquestionably a a mixture there's a lot

of serious argument in it but also I'm

trying to tell the story in as readable

a way as possible and you have to you

have to

use you got to Sugar the pill you've got

to so it's like it's like a it's like a

packet of uh of digestive biscuits MH um

if you've got to have so each of the

chapters uh has a uh some solid you know

wheat germ pabulum but it's covered with

some a little layer of chocolate did you

so say you you go down you go down the

packet compulsively and each of those 60

chapters I think there are 60 chapters

in that book is designed to give you a

bit of both so are you the pill that was

sugared you sugared yourself no well I

it's well I know there are it's the fact

of the great things that I think that we

did we know we took back control of our

of our country we we had a we we went

for a type of Independence that people

thought was impossible no I'm

spefic complicated arguments about um

Middle East about as a as a as a guide

to the last 15 years in in politics I

think it's it's pretty useful but I mean

I worked in marketing for about 15 years

so I find it quite fascinating that

right now in the world it seems that

there's a certain type of atypical

personality that's breaking through and

being

resident is your persona

a carefully constructed marketing

strategy or is because someone someone

that knows you referred to as a bit of a

loner in private and a quite quiet

person yeah no no I I live I so I'm very

I have a wonderful life um I I spend my

time I I do a lot of painting um I I do

a lot of reading and writing um I mck

around mck around with my kids it

doesn't take much to you know my cup to

run over with with with happiness but

you know all this stuff

like yeah but I know but that's I've got

I've always had a lot of energy but I've

always had a lot you understand that

that's part of your persona right well

am I supposed to do about that but I'm

trying to understand is it calculated is

it something that you've you've thought

about and you understand is effective

because they describe you as being one

of the best sort of election winners of

our of our time I think what people will

I don't know I mean what people will

also say is that um

I haven't really

changed I mean you know going back to

your earlier earlier line of question I

can see where you're going with this

you're saying as part of the strategy

for defense do we adopt comedic Persona

or or or whatever was um I don't think

that was I think it was just with my

brothers and sisters in our family there

was a kind of horror of of you know

being dull or not saying anything you

know we we had to you know we all had to

amuse each each other why

that was really really polite

I you know because it was more fun your

brothers and sisters are less amusing

than you are I wouldn't say

that that's a very controversial thing

to say you would say that I would no I

would not say that you would say that

who I would say that yeah you think Leo

have you met my brother Leo no I've not

met well then you got to get Leo on this

show but your sister my brother Joe yes

you met my brother

Jo no look honestly there's a serious uh

risk of of

uh we had a wonderful childhood because

and they wouldn't deny this because we

all you know we had a lot of fun trying

to interest and amuse each other and and

and and to your point probably our

parents as well CU your sister that's

not to say that we were we were you know

we didn't we didn't do kind of shards

and and Christmas masks and and plays

and and God knows what jery Corbin said

Boris is a calculated intelligent who

lives in a Persona which is the

opposite is that TR at

all

um no I I mean I I think that I I wish

you were true in some ways but I don't

I because most of your most you videos

on YouTube are you tackling a small

child we thing rugby and by the way by

the way he he he would I reckon he could

be much older than he looked you know

the guy in Japan the kid you tackled the

kid in Japan the one I accidentally

knocked over in Japan they're all comedy

videos yeah he he

anyway Eon it's pretty crazy she went to

Eaton at 13 years old it's the crazy

thing for me is that approximately 20 of

the 57 individuals who have served as

prime minister went to Eon which is

roughly 35% of the UK prime ministers

were educated at Eaton roughly yeah this

for me when I read that I go something's

broken here because for one school to

contribute so many of the most powerful

people in in the land feels like a

little bit of like someone's got their

hands on the scale or there's some kind

of that's why you need to read level

read the book because the book contains

this is the whole theme of the book

right not the whole theme of the book

it's one of the major themes of the book

it's about leveling up yeah and if if

you remember what I say about I don't

know whether you got through that bit

but I so I went there on a scholarship

and it was fantastic I was very lucky I

was I was paid for by the by Henry V 6

oh the legacy of Henry V 6 and I

remember feeling this

incredible sense

of

Amazement

that there were kids from some of the

most famous illustrious families in in

Britain uh who plainly didn't have you

know much um intellectual interest

academic you know Spark

in them and and kidss who'd come from

backgrounds all over the

country who were incredible and I and my

my insight at school very very very

young was that this there's there's a

fundamental problem which is that there

is ambition and energy and genius and

talent probably completely evenly

distributed throughout the UK

population

and opportunity is not yeah I

and that is the problem and that is the

basic problem with our country and this

country has more potential arguably than

any other major European economy because

it's so imbalanced and if you look at

the the propon schools like mine p in

London in the Southeast in the UK

economy it's actually unlike France

Germany Italy Holland it's also totally

unlike the United

States and so

I I decided very early on that the

that there was massive massive wasted

potential and so one of the so when I

became mayor of

London one of my biggest projects was

really the biggest thing we did was

really all about trying to lift the the

the burrow that people said were were

locked in a permanent cycle of

disadvantage and and you know you know

what I mean the inner the inner donut of

London hne where you know all that and

and it was total rubbish total rubbish

and you you can change

people's aspirations but you can then

also change uh the culture of of

achievement

and and I saw it happen in London and I

was only mayor for eight years but in

that period you really did see the city

change in in you know quite a

significant way and and I believe very

very strongly that that is fundamentally

what needs to happen in the whole of the

UK and and I think that this is the job

of politic I don't care whether they're

labor or conservative or whoever I think

that that is that is what we need to to

be doing and I think there are very

simple ingredients that polit there's

not there's limits to what politicians

can do but there are some simple things

that politicians need to be doing to to

make that happen has the conservative

government done well enough at leveling

up the the whole of the UK over the last

decade uh obviously not because it's not

happening f it is I mean it is happening

leveling up is happening but if you look

at the but it's nothing like fast enough

yeah

and you know so you know AB I was proud

of doing things like um rolling out

gigabit Broadband from you know 7 to 70%

69 70% of of households in in 3 years

which is not not bad going I was proud

of all the infrastructure stuff we were

we were doing I think it's a mistake to

to stop

that

infrastructure is crucial

[Music]

for leveling up transport infrastructure

is a great is a great equalizer of

opportunity so things like hs2 Northern

Powerhouse

rail we should be going on with those in

in my view and um you know whatever my

my defects as a politician I think one

thing I was good at was getting a lot of

stuff done fast and get and and driving

and driving project projects but the

problem is Eaton Eaton was to back to

your

question that youthful

experience

was I I was also at Primary School in in

London and I really really decided that

this was because I think our country has

this

problem worse than most other most

comparable countries but if you think

how if you think of how strong the UK

economy already

is then imagine what we could achieve if

we leveled up right do you know this

this stat around Eon that 20 out of the

57 individuals who've served as prime

minister came from there isn't that just

the clearest example of the fact that it

is yeah the people that are coming into

politics but also generally the people

that are getting to the top in society

are starting with a unfair advantage to

some

degree I well I think what it shows is

that I mean you probably point to

cultures like France or wherever where

you know the a lot of the the country is

run by the um the the people from the

the the Great Schools um but yeah I mean

fundamentally yes that's I think that

the so so the great the great choice for

for anybody who's interested in public

policy is well okay this is a this is

clearly clearly a problem uh it's

clearly wrong uh it's clearly imbalanced

what do you do uh do you set out to

launch a kind of cultural assault um

Paul pot Style on the successful

institutions or do you say actually what

we're going to do is try to spread

opportunity so it's more like America

and and if you look at

America you the growth rates are

spectacularly outperformed European

growth rates there's a different sense

people have a different sense of what

they can do and we need to have a we

need to have a a culture in the UK where

people don't feel prisoners of their

geography of their background that

certainly is the case isn't it at the

moment in the UK too much the case I

mean it's less it's less than it was I

went undercover I went undercover in a

school in Liverpool that was very poorly

ranked on the offed rankings and I

remember being in that school and just

thinking how on Earth are these kids

going to have a chance well they're not

going to have a chance if their teachers

tell them that they're never going to

get into a Russell group University and

they and they well what I observed when

I was there was I observed one teacher

running from one classroom to the next

classroom this was under Ator government

trying to teach two classes at the same

time and I remember sitting down with

her cuz I cuz I got like kicked out of

school then I was unexposed from school

so I had a bit of my own prejudices

about school I thought teachers were the

problem and what I came to learn from

speaking to the Headmaster of the school

was that this is effectively run like a

business and the amount of students that

choose that school every year determines

how much money the school is given by

the the conservative government and the

the amount of the parents choose schools

based on the league table and the league

table is determined by grades so really

if you think about the the structure

here um the reason why they're driving

kids like me to do subjects which I

absolutely hated when I was really

interested in business was because if

they don't get me to get 12 AED to sees

or whatever the nonsense is in certain

subjects less they they rank poorly in

the league table less parents choose the

school they get less money from the

government and it's this down with

spiral and because the school was so so

people are people are are naturally

skewed to doing subjects that

perhaps no interest of them they had me

pushing some plastic baby around the

school in Health and Social care when I

was running businesses in the school and

I was I was spending so much time in my

in exclusion unit because I was falling

asleep in classrooms turns out I had

ADHD I wasn't interested in these things

but I was obs in these things the system

is that is designed to just to just sort

of spread bet you across multiple

subjects and you're a failure if you're

not good at that but going back to the

sort of the E the the um e economics of

the school I watched this teacher run

from one classroom to the other teaching

two classrooms at the same time and she

told me that because less students had

chosen that school this year she was

having to pay for the footballs and the

the pencils in her classroom this school

I I observed the quality of Education

with all due respect they did the best

with with what they had but oh my God it

doesn't compare doesn't compare to a lot

of the other schools that I've observed

and I thought God these children in this

school are starting out life with a

significant disadvantage and much of

that is just down to the funding

situation they don't have the teachers

the teachers are dropping like flies

because they're getting sick because

they're understaffed and I just thought

that that's such a if we think about you

know what's the furthest Upstream thing

we can do to give people a fair Shake in

life so that they can become a prime

minister or a CEO or whatever they want

to be it starts there it starts with

education and just giving everyone the

same sort of quality of opportunity but

right now and especially under the the

sort of last 10 15 years of

government Cas I think I probably ought

to to to try and resist some of that

because um yeah I mean I think teaching

is incred I tried to be a teacher myself

it's it's it's unbelievably difficult

and and demanding job and I hugely

admire teachers

um when I came in in 2019 we put a lot

of money into into the education budgets

and um made sure teachers were going to

be paid new new teachers are starting

Sal at least 30,000 pounds and uh put a

lot of money into into further

education um and actually if you look at

that period of con of the conservative

Administration I think most fairm minded

people say actually look UK went up the

pza rankings uh for literacy and

numeracy most people actually would say

that education was one of the things

where things did get better and uh I

think the driving out of the whole

Academy program I

mean not remotely denying what you say

about

um the teacher you you know the teachers

you saw being being totally run run

ragged um and you know the

they need the maximum possible support

but if you look at the

data schools did get appreciably better

in this country during that period now

what I wanted to do was really

turbocharge that and

give not just school children but also

kids who'd left school at at 16 the

types of skills that they were going to

need to

compete and to make sure that business

felt that they had in the schools in the

Fe colleges in wherever it was they had

the talent that they needed to invest in

that area because that's ultimately what

it's all about it's about having the

um the

confidence that the the state is doing

enough

to deliver private sector

investment that is that is ultimately

what will transform

the the neighborhood and and you get

instead of getting the vicious circle of

of decline that you talked about you'll

get a you'll get a uh a positive

feedback Loot and uh parents want to

move there they want to send their kids

to the to to the school the school get a

good good reputation and and so things

will things will turn around as they did

in London look at London schools um you

know I can't I can't comment on the

school you mentioned in Liverpool but

London schools really really changed a

lot

I think with even with the leveling up

thing one of the easiest ways to level

up without building the train line would

just be to improve the quality of

Education in these and I think if you

look at what the conservatives did they

really focused on that and they focused

on the curriculum they focused on

standards they focused on quality and I

think that was very important because

you

know I mean it's Al it's very very

important to to to fund schools properly

um but but you know you you shouldn't

underestimate what what a great teacher

can achieve and the difference that they

can make and you know if if you

emphasize quality and you

emphasize attainment and you and you

focus on that that's why I'm I know I

think it's I'm slightly worried about

what's happening now with with ofstead I

mean I I I can understand why people

don't like one word ofstead gradings but

parents need to know whether a school is

gonna deliver you went to Oxford

University then you had a job as a

Management Consultant which lasted only

a week I hear yeah I was wasn't really

cut out for Management Consultant you

know you then become a journalist um you

become a journalist for the next couple

of years you then appear on have I got

news for you is it is it now is it now

feeded from the memory it's slightly

it's slightly fading it's still a great

show but it's still slightly fading um

you were then editor he must tell in his

lot that it's F and and uh you an empty

at the house of comms um then eventually

you for London mayor were you did you

expect to win the London mayor ship I

well you see this is the way you I

hadn't got the faintest idea I mean

seemed the thing was that I'd actually

been quite an admirer of Ken Livingston

in in the old days and I thought that he

had some some bold and original ideas

for London I I thought he was good on

the environment he was good on air

quality he was good on on the I thought

there was some some some good things

that he that he did um but it was clear

that after 8 years you know you start to

get a bit ragged did you did you think

you would

win I suppose I must have done I suppose

I must have thought it was a good chance

it was it was it was a pretty exhausting

campaign but if you ask me if I thought

I would win something I can tell you in

hset whether I thought I'd win I did

soccer Aid last year this year and I can

tell you if I thought I was going to win

did you think you were going to win when

you

ran I thought there was a goodish chance

but it wasn't obvious I mean I I think

the bookies didn't really had me as the

as the favorite uh for for a long time I

think it then changed I can't remember

exactly but

um you know you make your own L right I

mean I had to I had to go in there and

make the arguments I me I think one of

the things that

Ken didn't pay enough attention to was

crime and I thought

the was a real issue that needed to be

addressed and that was the the numbers

of teenage kids being murdered and we

really really went at that hard and

again it was one of those things where

when I together with a lot of other

people kit Mouse Deputy Mayor Steven

greenhalge uh Paul Stevenson the

commissioner Bernard Hogan

how who who followed him we really

really tried to fix knife crime and gang

crime I used to literally lie awake at

night worrying about it because it was

so on me

you know every every single casualty

having to talk to the parents you know

the misery the misery of of their

suffering we really felt it and we and

it was it was a good example of

democracy because we'd pledged to fix

it and if we

didn't we had nowhere to go one of the

things I'm proud of is we we cut the

murder in London during my time by 50%

in 2016 at 52 years old you become

co-leader along side Michael go of the

campaign to take Britain out of the EU

when I when I look at your Premiership

as prime minister of the UK there's

three really significant moments isn't

there that typically don't fall all in

one

person's role as a prime minister you

had the brexit issues you had Co and you

had the Ukraine war y um before I before

I talk about those particular

issues in hindsight now how do you feel

about the fact that you had to contend

with three

generational crises and issues but you

know that's the job of being prime

minister but most Prime Ministers don't

get sure but but you know pandemic

leaving the EU some Prim ministers have

had Wars some Prim ministers have had uh

terrible crisis uh Sterling crisis

terrible you wish you got a different

hand no I I I think actually do you

think you'd still be in politics now and

as prime minister if you if you got a

different hand no I think there are I

think honestly I think there were other

reasons for for for that I mean I'm so

I'm I'm proud of of the things that we

did with with the country I think it was

very you know people now say um oh

brexit War actually you know one of the

points I make in in Unleashed is that if

you look at it the model of national

Independence that we got was crucial so

full freedom to do what we wanted in

legislation and regulation that was

actually crucial when it came to that

pandemic because we were able to

vaccinate faster than any other European

country a much faster I mean did you

think you were going to win the brexit

vote um I honestly when I was outside

London yes when I was inside London no

so whenever I traveled around the

country I thought my God people are

going to vote then when I got back into

the

Metropolis um it felt very different so

if you had to put your house on it

remain or leave in terms of the

probability of the outcome what you your

predicted outcome which one would you

have voted

on well I the polls were were basically

more for remain than for

leave um but I sort of thought that our

voters were more motivated so I hoped

that they would come out and I hoped

that they

would that was and but he did but on a

scale had foreseen I mean because we had

17.4 million people voted Lee which was

the biggest number voted for any

proposition in history and um but you

know there were plenty of times when I

you

know you could be in a in I was a St

Andrews University in Scotland for my

daughter's graduation day and you really

wouldn't have thought that we were going

to leave talking to those people there

so you know it depended do you know

what's interesting when I was reading

your book but also when I was reading

some of your previous writings you

seemed really conflicted on which way to

go leave or remain right up until you

wrote your sort of first announcement

piece that you were supporting leave you

seemed to be really really

conflicted the the reasons for for for

not

leaving were it seemed to me to be more

to do with Britain's duty to the rest of

Europe or need to be good partners uh

our need not to be

negative uh to be friendly I that that

those were the things that worried me

people the positive reasons for leaving

people point at this letter which was

unpublished you know the letter I'm

referring to the unpublished letter you

wrote about the decision to leave or

stay within the EU is this no you mean

the the article the unpublished article

yeah yeah yeah yeah where you said here

some of the the phrases from that piece

think of Britain think of the rest of

the EU think of of the future think of

the desire of our children and our

grandchildren to live and work in other

European countries to sell things there

to make friends perhaps to find Partners

there I like the sound of freedom I like

the sound of restoring democracy but

what are the downsides and here we must

be honest there is the worry about

Scotland about the possibility that the

English only Lee vote could lead to the

breakup of the Union there is the Putin

Factor we don't want to do anything to

encourage more shirtless swaggering from

the Russian leader not the Middle East

not anywhere and then there is the whole

geostrategic anxiety Britain is a great

nation a global Force for good it is

surely a boon for for the world and for

Europe that she should be intimately

engaged in the EU lastly this is a

market on our doorstep ready for future

exploitation by British firms the

membership fee seems rather small for

all that access why are we so determined

to turn our back on it shouldn't our

policy be like our policy on cake pro-

having it and pro eating it pro Europe

and pro rest of the world so when I read

that but then I also I read the um the

very Vivid description you gave of that

night when you're trying to make your

decision in your book unle

and you seemed torn but the guy that

went out and campaigned didn't seem torn

there was a there was a real lack of

nuance in the campaign but there's such

a a huge amount of nuance in both the

moment you were making the decision and

the Articles you wrote about that

decision there are arguments both ways

and and I I I say it in the in the book

and it's certainly true that as I as I

said just now the the case for for stay

is I think one about um not seeming to

be hostile not seeming to be detached

but I had to

decide because the being in the EU isn't

like just being in a club that where the

rules don't change it's it's a project

to create a United States of of Europe

with a single currency with a single

Parliament and and and so on

and I thought that we weren't ever going

to get the choice again the chance again

to have National Democratic Independence

and as I said in so I wrote that article

you just quoted was a sort of pasti of a

of a

counterargument which I wrote for myself

as an exercise after I'd already written

the piece to to come

out and I wanted to set them side by

side and and to think the that's nuanced

but the campaign wasn't nuanced but if

you read the the other article yeah

you'll see the points that I came down

in favor of MH

and that was about having full marhall

Independence and be able to do things

your own way and the trouble with

staying in the

EU was it it meant that we were going to

become less and less

Democratic and in the end you've got to

be able

to as a

politician you've got to be able to

answer the question

question who put you in authority over

me and how can I remove you from office

and the problem with the EU is there's

no way they can answer that question

because they're not they're not

democratically is there not way you can

reform the relationship with the EU

while being in the EU you know it's

interesting I think I was thinking of a

football analogy as you're talking there

and right now Manchester United my team

are having a bit of struggle right and

um my friends in the group chat are

saying do you think that we should get

rid of the manager and I'm saying when

you think about making a decision like

that you also have to factor in um what

you do after I.E who replaces the

manager so many fans would just say sack

the manager but then the question

becomes but then what and it was quite

clear in your book that although you

wanted to leave the EU you had no

idea what the plan would be thereafter

and in fact no but no but what we needed

to do is take back control and so that's

like fire the manager I'm saying but

then what

it

wasn't I was just wanting to win an

argument with the public about their

democracy and whether they should

control it or not and I thought that

ultimately we had to do that and and I

think that if you look at so going back

to the points that we were talking about

earlier to growth rates in America and

and Europe you couldn't say that the the

EU model has been economically

successful not at all um it's got

chronically bad growth rates um very low

Innovation by comparison with the United

States something is is not working so

whatever that whatever they're doing in

Brussels to provide this this great body

of of Regulation it's not actually

delivering results for the people of of

Europe and if

you clip when compared to America well

so so from 2008 on to 15 take the 15

years 2008

20202 whatever to tr indry um but does

that mean that the EU is doing something

wrong or that the Americans are doing

something right because when I think of

America I think of insane

Innovation a lot a bit of both a lot I

mean a lot of both

so me the Americans by the way would

never dream of trading away National

sovereignty over anything they just

don't they never they never they never

in any way NATO is a bit of a act where

they've formed complete hegemony in NATO

I mean you know that's but they joined

forces to make the some greater than the

parts yeah but you know there's no the

the the EU provides a a body of new and

a continuously evolving body of new law

which British the British Parliament

can't change and so to get back to so

why I mean I'm not pretending it wasn't

an e it wasn't a difficult decision it

was a difficult decision uh for the you

know for the reasons that you that that

we've gone into but I wanted the country

our country to be

legislatively free again and and at the

heart of the book you know you talk

about the pandemic being the most

difficult thing it was very very

difficult but and it was very difficult

to persuade the British public to I very

find ways of stopping the spread of the

disease but one thing we did better than

any other European country was vaccinate

and one reason we were able to vaccinate

so fast is because we had regulatory

freedom of exactly the kind I mean it

was a complete flute but it turn exactly

the kind we'll talk about that that I

that I had advocated we'll talk about

that and so and so that for me was

absolutely crucial and then we'll talk

about that I just want to I need to make

sure I'm clear because if I'm not clear

moving forward then my audience aren't

going to be clear um this idea of like

Freedom if we take the the analogy of

like a of a

parachute if I cut the C WS I'm free but

I'm also in danger unless I have a

paraglider waiting to catch me and my

point here is I understand the head all

the like the big emotional words that

freedom Take Back Control Etc it sounds

compelling to me but as I said with the

football analogy what's the plan

thereafter and I think I I actually

don't want I don't about cutting you

talking about the parachute right and

cutting the cords of the of the

parachute um actually it was the other

way around it was because we'd come out

of the EU that we were able to equip

ourselves with a parachute faster than

anybody else and uh we were able to to

get out of the Burning Plane uh faster

and to get to ground safely faster

because we' taken back control of our of

our regulatory freedom and that meant

that by March 2021 we' vaccinated 45% of

the adult population and of the older

people I think we done almost 80 over

the over 80 we done almost 100% and that

was incredible if you remember we had we

had we'll talk about the vaccines in

early in those early day but the two

things are connected those early days we

had thousands you know up to a thousand

people dying every day and so it was

incredibly important just we were able

to give elderly and vulnerable people in

the UK a protection from in a on this

point of brexit though in your book you

say you almost sort of connect yourself

from the fact that you there had to be a

plan associated with the decision

because you seem almost angry that

people would expect you to have the plan

even though you led the campaign yeah so

I mean I'm trying to make the connection

between brexit and the real world and

why brexit delivers value was there a

plan for leaving so so but on the in

2016 and I think what you're really

saying is what was our plan for the

um the referendum outcome so me

everybody who campaigned to to leave

were we expecting to win uh were we

expecting to form the next government

let me quote your book this is good for

promotion for your book so you're like

this never at any point in that campaign

did we Boris and Michael gave discuss a

future leave based government because we

did not imagine that there would be

would have we would have to be in charge

of government the government stated

policy was to implement the referendum

result it was a result it was a

referendum not an election we had no

plans for government no plans for

negotiations because it was not our

job and in so far as the next few days

were chaotic which they were it is

utterly infuriating that we should be

blamed it was up to the government to

announce the plan to withdraw it was up

to the government to begin negotiations

so this is I mean this is this is a huge

issue because if in the context of

business because when because when

because why because because because I

think there a fundamental misconception

when you when when when a government

decides to put something to the people

in a

referendum the government is not saying

um oh you know if if it goes against our

you know the any particular position

we'll we'll disappear but the government

they wanted to remain in France uh for

instance uh uh uh France miton had

referendum on I I can't remember I think

it was the master treaty um or was one

of the treaties that he he lost the vote

um and he didn't resign he didn't

disappear plenty of European uh leaders

have had referendums on E on on on the

EU and and they've gone against them but

they haven't vanished from the scene and

so you know let put this the other way

around imagine imagine that go and I or

the whole of the leave team had been

specifically campaigning to in the leave

vote to form the next government and to

install ourselves as the rulers of the

country people would have said this is

not about um this you're plainly you

you're talking all your arguments

designed to advance your political

careers you're not you're not talking

about the issue of leave or remain

you're talking about a plan to take over

the government I and so totally I'm not

politici I'm just I'm just a member of

public I'm just trying to I'm trying to

explain why that that was not possible I

get it but as a member of the public I

think if you're leading the charge for

an outcome you must have looked a couple

of steps further to think about the

implications and the real ity of this

outcome like you must have had okay do

it like this we I assume that the

government would have bring would have a

white paper that said that brought they

they were going to bring forward the

options for the country and a plan to

negotiate and a plan and a plan to would

to do what they said they were going to

do but the government including your

friend David Cameron said this is a

really bad idea he so one would one

would take from that that the plan is

not a good one that they've looked at

all the available options post leaving

and there's no good options here so if

the people in charge were saying we

should not leave there is no good

plan shouldn't we have listened to them

well no because I think they were

wrong as a member of public is I see two

like two people stood at a cliff Edge

and you got one guy called David one guy

called Boris and David has said listen

I'm taking you to the cliff Edge because

it's your right to to make this decision

but do not jump and this other guy

called Boris is going jump I would

assume that Boris knows something about

how we survive once we start falling but

to find out that Boris had no plan and

thought David was going to pull out the

parachute for me is like well David D

the problem the problem was that I I

then we then had to we then found

ourselves because David prime minister

Cameron then disappeared from the

scene

immediately as I as I described in the

book we then we then had a a chaotic

period where we had to work out what the

hell we were going to do because it was

clear

that we were going to somebody was going

to have to take over and and lead us

through it did David Cameron react badly

when you told him when he thought that

you might be voting to leave because you

talk about in the book he yes I did he

but I mean but I describe it um in the

in the book he he said he said

um he

said I well I said look I I was really

struggling with this because I didn't

see how I consistently cuz he'd offered

me he said if you come out and support

rain you can have a top five job in the

cabinet I couldn't work out what a top

five job was and then he and then he

said um and then I he I said well look I

was Finding very because I've written

lots and lots of Articles the pointing

out the the Democratic problems of the

of the EU and you know finally we had a

chance to to resolve this and I was

thinking of of coming out for leave and

I you know didn't know how to put it to

him that was the the truth and he he

said this isn't about articles this is

about the future of the country I said

well I agreed about the future of the

country but I was still thinking canot

believe and he said well if you if you

if you come out believe he said I will

and I you know apologize for he same he

said I will I will [ __ ] you up

forever and which I thought was quite a

big big you know sort of promise to me

he said he was going to [ __ ] you up

forever forever and so I immediately um

went back home after I went back home

after that evening and uh and cycled

back from my office in in in City Hall

and talked to my my family my kids and

one of my kids uh said immediately well

you know he got no choice and you'll

have to come out for leave so

um I mean I put that in to to I put all

that in really to just to show you that

um there were very good Arguments

for having a quiet life do you know

what's interesting in that is I when I

read that part in your book The was two

things that I thought the first was him

offering you a top five job if you

followed his opinion is that not briary

and is that how the jobs are dished out

in the government at the moment if if

you if you do what I say I'll give you a

top like if you do what I say I'll make

you health secretary or defense

secretary seems like but it seems like

from as a someone who's not in

government it seems like a really

corrupt way to dish out jobs like if you

if you go with me it wasn't clear it

wasn't clear you've got to be fair to

Dave it wasn't clear what job he was

offering but top five is what defense

secretary Health

secretary you know PMS were top five

jobs so there's what really four

remaining it's probably you thought in

the book you talk about potentially

defense secretary I don't know but yes

but yeah I mean look but but is that not

a bit corrupt is that not like the

definition of corruption because if I

was it to my employ my own view about

all I think it's a it's a huge mistake

to do that kind of thing because there

are always far more people that you know

you end up you know thinking

that you should be making a promise to

then there are jobs you can possibly

give so the best thing in those

circumstan is to say nothing I I've I've

always wondered this about government

and I've never understood it is how does

someone become the head of a department

when they have no prior experience in it

like you made Matt hanock Health

secretary how did how did Margaret

thater become Prime Minister or

secretary for Education when she had no

previous previous experience how did

Tony Blair become Prime Minister when no

the Prime Minister thing I understand

how but how did how did T become you

know a shadow Minister when he had no

experience you tell me do you think this

is a good system well so this is a

really really important point because I

think that there is a

um I

I I do worry that it's quite hard to

persuade you know really good

administrative types to go into to

politics and you know you see it the the

whole time it's called Dar CEO right and

you see it the whole time you see loads

and loads of um I plenty of examples of

top business people who tried to get who

tried to become politicians and it just

doesn't seem to work and I I don't know

I mean can I can I have a guess go on

well if I look at the data I go if 35%

of them come from one school eaten and

then there's jobs being dished out based

on if you take my opinion I'll give you

a top five job I go I understand why I

could never get in even if I was the

best candidate because it's not being

done based on who's the best candidate

it's being done based on like the old

boys club but I'll do you a favor I'll

if you well not not under not under the

labor party presumably uh or you know or

or any other party not not not not under

the I mean most most conservative

cabinets so just under the T party no I

I think under under any party I think I

think that business people do for

reasons I find hard to put my f

on they don't necessarily flourish in in

that environment and who flourishes what

I what I worry about is that the only

people who are already going to start

doing it are people who are willing to

go through a lot of um you know

public attack I think social pass well I

mean well the fact so look one of the

interesting things that's happened

recently is that social media has become

very very

virulent and um I I don't read it myself

but I think it it becomes very

oppressive for politicians and also for

journalists and I think journalists

[Music]

um you know they get a lot of

shellacking and a lot of abuse if

they're not thought to be taking one

line or or the other or you know going

easy on someone um I mean somebody who's

going to interview me for this this book

um yeah you look at and she's a very

very good journalist but you look at the

stuff that she gets

online um about you

know you know her being an Inquisitor of

mine or whatever it's appalling it's

really appalling and I think so I think

that and I think that it's also the same

for MPS I think that they get

very um they think they think if it's a

choice between having a life where I can

you know avoid this sort of stuff

and you know having a wonderful

existence doing something else or or

putting myself through this on the point

of that I said think thinking that it's

related to the fact that people have got

their hands on the scales they're

pulling their friends up it's a bit of a

boys club is there any truth in that I

think but I think I look I'm sad to say

Steve I think that this probably been

the way politics has been since the dawn

of time I think that politicians I think

politics has tended to be um

factional uh since the dawn of time I

think it's tended to be just sad but I

think true um the the good thing is

that in the end the people who are

really successful are the people

who get things done that the people want

done do you think it's say magnet and so

and so and so so so it's a it's

a it's a magnet for very determined

characters who are willing to put

themselves through a lot soop get things

well well I

mean um have I used those words before

no no but that's the kind of person

you're making me sounds like you're

quoting me about maybe you but yeah but

the kind of person that I think would be

compelled and succeed in such an

environment um I

think I think you have to have a pretty

thick skin okay but the but because of

the because of the way it

works the people who actually succeed

are the people who really can drive

something forward and and deliver it

closing off on brexit um 62% of British

people view brexit as more of a failure

according to yugov and 9% consider it

more of a success um according to yugov

as well 46% of British people say they

should there should be a second e

referendum in 10 years compared to just

36% that say it shouldn't be

and according to let me just finish the

stats you can respond um according to

the UK's Real gross added value the gva

a measure of the size of the economy um

they say there's approximately 140

billion Less in 2023 in the UK economy

compared to if the UK had stayed in the

single EU Market according to the same

thing they say that 300 billion has been

wiped off the value of the UK's economy

um by

2035 and my last stat here is a report

from the center of European reform in

2023 estimates the UK GDP was 5.5%

smaller by mid 2023 compared to a

scenario where the UK had remained in

the EU this equates to an economic loss

of about 40 billion annually and just as

a business owner myself I was looking at

some stats around what business owners

think about 33% of small businesses

reported that brexit has made it harder

for them to trade with the EU due to

increased paperwork and things like this

and the London School of Economics said

that brex added 6% to food prices

between 2020 and 2023

with all of this in mind do you regret

brexit not at all not at all I mean

honestly uh so we've outgrown Germany uh

France since 2016 onwards uh sorry

certainly out grown Italy uh since 2016

onwards last time I looked Germany and

Italy were both members of the of the EU

and when you the statistics that you

give I mean they are dwarfed for

instance by

covid um you know even if I even if you

accept that um which I don't necessarily

uh that uh brexit has caused uh problems

it's also caused massive opportunities

because we because we were able to come

out of the lockdown earlier than any

other country remember we we came out of

lockdown in

July

2021 we ended we ended all restrictions

and that meant that we had the fastest

economic rebound of any G7 country and

that would not have happened in my view

without the assistance of brexit

freedoms do you know the O ecd do you

know what that body is yes yes they say

the UK is the only major Rich economy

that remains smaller poorer than prior

to the pandemic and brexit may be a

factor in that in the government's

independent Watchdog which I know you

know the office for Budget

responsibility thinks the UK will

ultimately be 4% worse off than it would

have been had it not voted for brexit

when I you know in business everything

is a trade-off everything is a trade-off

so you must be able to identify the

tradeoff that the UK has made for all of

the upsides that you claim brexit is

delivered so I think it's intellectually

honest of anyone to be able to identify

both sides of the argument here so what

is the trade-off what has brexit cost us

just it cost what it cost us yeah I

think I think that that it's certainly

true that um the the way that some of it

is being managed by some of our by our

European friends is unnecessarily

bureaucratic at the moment I think that

will get better I I I I I accept that

criticism I don't think it's the end of

the the end of the world but I do think

ultimately the advantage of being free

to do your own thing free to run your

own country to control your own tradeoff

no I have I impact for us in but for me

as an average citizen what's the what's

the what's the trade downside yeah well

I think you know you I it's certainly

true that some some businesses are

finding it harder

to there is paperwork that I don't think

there needs to be and we need to fix

that but I think that the te we have

technological solutions to that I don't

think that we need to be part of a

European Empire of law get and ever

denser and more detailed Empire of law

controlling our freedom and stopping us

is there an economic

trade-off I I don't think I think that

ultimately we will be richer as a result

in the near ter we're going to be poorer

well I you know again people were very

emotional about this and look can I just

remind you when before the referendum

people said that and no one ever holds

these people to account people said that

there would be Millions more unemployed

right do you remember that people said

there would have to be an emergency tax

raising budget if the people voted to

leave the EU actually uh when I cease to

be prime minister unemployment was at a

50-year low and we had 620,000 more

people in paid employment than before

pandemic began point about the

economic I'm just saying that people

people make all sorts of

prognostications about brexit the stats

that I read you do you believe them that

there's an economic struggle in the

short

people said that we would be we would

have a million people on the do Que

because of brexit okay fine but do you

believe that there's a in the near town

they're now saying because they're now

it's it's confirmation bias right people

but you said we will be richer

eventually so I'm saying I hope that we

will if if we do the right thing sure so

in the near term do you think there's a

little bit of struggle to get through

economically as a result of brexit I

think the I think that will that's

certainly the case if we make the

mistake of of staying I mean which is

what K star and the labor parties you

know want to do is staying

in align alignment with the the EU they

they basically want to be us to be rules

takers okay I think that's a huge huge

mistake we should go for

freedom I don't know how to say this you

in a way that you're going to understand

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and and say Steve you were right it's

banging the next big thing was the

pandemic this was once you'd become the

prime minister of the United Kingdom um

and you have this pandemic begin to roll

in I was looking at your the the way you

described that situation in late 2019

early 2020 in your book and it appears

that you had no idea of the severity of

this virus that was rolling into the

shores when was the first time you heard

that there was a virus that had come in

from China whatever the date was I think

it was either end

of uh 2019 beginning of 2020 I I can't

remember exactly when but there's

there's a day when uh when I'm walking

through the lobby of the House of

Commons with the health secretary and he

says you know there's I'm worried about

this um this Chinese virus was that

hanock the right person to be handling

that because that is a generational once

in a lifetime health issue yeah and in I

look I think I think he did a very good

job yes I think he was he was very

energetic was he the best person to be

handling it I think it I think he I

think he did a very good job and I think

that was he the best person to be

handling it

look in

hindsight well I I certainly think that

he well yes because I think yes I think

that he had the right mixture of energy

and and

realism um don't forget we didn't know

about the the disease we didn't know how

lethal it was we didn't know how

contagious it was and we didn't know how

exactly how it was transmitted there was

a lot of stuff we we didn't know some

quotes from your book here you said the

problem wasn't that I was ignorant to

zuntic diseases the problem was that I

felt I knew all about

them um after more than 30 years of

writing about or dealing with new zootic

zootic yeah diseases I felt I knew my

SARS and my Ebola so to speak and I

concluded two things first that these

novel zuntic plagues tend to sort

themselves out and second that the

greater risk of destruction from from

these from attempts to stop them by

politicians um was there sort of

attempts to contain the diseases that

the prevention would probably be worse

than the cause in some

respects so when hanock started talking

about a new Corona virus possibly from

bats and the risk that it would sweep

the country it was hardly surprising

that I felt I'd heard this all

before little did we

know yes I I mean so I think that's I

that's I'm I'm being very honest there

about about um as I am throughout

Unleashed about the my state of mind

because you know i' I'd covered in great

detail um the

uh salmon and eggs Panic uh when

millions of chickens were slaughtered uh

needlessly i' covered the uh the bines

punch for men off the Panic mad car

disease when uh vast portion of the UK

dairy uh cattle herd was slaughtered

probably uh

needlessly um the livelihoods of farmers

were destroyed um I'd been mayor of

London when we we were threatened with

the uh with a bird flu um so didn't was

a big deal and we we' laid on stocks of

Tamiflu which turned out not to be to be

necessary uh so I've seen SARS come and

go uh Ebola and so on and in each of

these cases what what what seemed to

have happened was that there had been a

rational anxiety about the risk of a

xonotic disease

um often from Asia or

wherever um we would get in a real we'

do our best to get ready and then

it mysteriously leave us almost

completely unaffected I remember the

swine flu is that what you thought was

happen in this case and I didn't know

course I didn't know but I was what I

was trying to do was to give you context

the context and the state of mind that I

think a lot of people were in

when they they heard about about Co when

did you call China February had it

February 2020 there was a call you made

to the leader of China to Xin ping yeah

yeah I mean I would have called him I

mean it'll be in the it'll be in it'll

be in the book and you were sending

supplies yeah that stage we were we were

still

sending um supplies to help them there

we were we were sending prote what did

he say about the virus well I said

um I look my remember the conversation

is hazy now I I I think I you know

um congratulated him on what seemed to

be his efforts to control the disease

but said I was I was anxious about the

what was happening in these wet markets

because at that stage we were given to

understand that these the disease had

had

occurred um spontaneously in a in a

market in Wuhan what did he say and I

can't remember what he said to to that

um I don't think I he look I mean he's a

he a president of China I don't think he

wanted to particularly the implication

that China was in any way at at fault

and I can take understand that but I now

think that wasn't right I know I think

it almost certainly was a um a lab

accident or it was as a result of

something that went wrong in that lab

can I ask about this because this