should you keep secrets from your

partner this is big yes and the data

shows it will help to increase

satisfaction and lower conflict in your

relationship so give me an example of

something that I shouldn't say to my

partner here's a juicy one

so what

about

oh even when I say out loud I know py

Brunson is the world's most influential

Matchmaker who Blends groundbreaking

science research and over 15 years of

expertise to prove that anyone can

create shakable foundations for

long-lasting life-changing love I read

about this study that says men are

approximately 624 more likely to

separate if the woman gets terminally

ill yes what is going on there typically

it's because there is a low level of

satisfaction in the relationship from

not having enough sex for example but

this is a major issue cuz 80% of

relationships have a lower level of

satisfaction today than any point in

history and part of that is because most

of what we know about finding and

keeping love has unfortunately been fed

to us through lies let's pause there

because I want to talk about those myths

okay so does having more sex increase

the happiness in your relationship no

what about having doubts in your

relationship is that bad that couldn't

be further from the truth really it's

actually healthy to have doubts about

your relationship and this is why what

about if someone cheats is that the end

of the relationship brilliant question

and quite honestly and then what are the

most important qualities I need in a

partner okay this BW my mind so these

are the three traits to have a

phenomenal relationship number one what

this has always blown my mind a little

bit 53% of you that listen to the show

regularly haven't yet subscribed to the

show so could I ask you for a favor

before we start if you like the show and

you like what we do here and you want to

support us the free simple way that you

can do just that is by hitting the

Subscribe button and my commitment to

you is if you do that then I'll do

everything in my power me and my team to

make sure that this show is better for

you every single week we'll listen to

your feedback we'll find the guest that

you want me to speak to and we'll

continue to do what we do thank you so

much

[Music]

good to see you again it's awesome to be

here I'm going to ask you a question

that assumes that I don't know who you

are okay which is quite hard because I

know you very well but who are you and

who are you to write these two books

that I have in front of me find love and

keep

love well who who am I I'm first and

foremost a husband I'm a father uh I'm a

son I'm a brother I'm a cousin I'm an

uncle I'm a mentor I'm a mentee you know

I'm all of those things and I feel like

those are the things I am first uh but

uh I have a longstanding history with

relationships you know I became a

Matchmaker my wife and I launched a

matchmaking agency we became one of the

largest agencies in the United States

and what's interesting about being a

matchmaker is that a lot of people don't

even realize that is a career like

there's legit matchmakers there's

probably I'd say roughly a thousand

full-time match makers around the world

and what we do is we literally match

people together for long-term committed

relationships but what ends up happening

if you're successful with that is two

people enter a long-term committed

relationship and because they've built

up a relationship with you they have

questions about how do they keep that

relationship how do they keep their love

so my wife and I then began to

transition into counselors and coaches

for married couples or couples who were

in committed relationships so that's

where that that started and that went on

for for over a decade and then on top of

that I started uh you know I had

research Global Research at Tinder which

is a great opportunity for me to look at

a very large data set and make

predictions as to what's happening with

our relationships uh I host television

shows uh reality TV shows which for good

or for bad I think help to spark

conversation about relationships that

are needed so doing research there you

know I do podcasts like this you know so

my life actually is all about

relationships and that's the reason why

I wanted to to write this book and

that's the reason why I feel qualified

to write this book so how long ago was

it that you started doing the

matchmaking oh my gosh so

2008 is when I officially began

matchmaking yeah 17 years it was a long

time ago the reason I asked that is a

lot has changed in 17 years yes we've

been through this Evol ution of dating

apps and matchmaking services and things

like Match.com and my question is where

do you think we find ourselves today as

it relates to relationships like what is

the macro picture how are people feeling

the person that's watching this right

now that's either single and looking in

a relationship and maybe struggling can

you give me an overview a synopsis of

how they're feeling in their head sure

sure and why all right this is a great

one so we're feeling different things

there's a small percentage of us and

I'll go to Eli fle research who wrote

phenomenal books but one is called the

All or Nothing marriage that I love and

in it he states that if you look at

marriages committed relationships that

20% of us have higher satisfaction than

we ever have in the history of

relationships and you think 20% one is

that's fairly small and do they really

have high statisfaction and and I fully

believe this and the reason why is

because we have tools you know we have

people watch podcast read books watch

television shows we have tools like

we've never had before more access to

therapy so 20% very satisfied but 80%

more

dissatisfied more upset more confused

than ever before and I would say that

those who are not in relationships the

pool reflects that as well I think

there's a 20% of singles who are hopeful

and are developing the tools and

developing the skills and learning

active listening and all these things

and they will and they believe they'll

enter strong relationships they're

they're very hopeful I think there's 80%

out there that

are perhaps hopeless disgruntled

confused dismayed uh you know and and

and I would say that that that's that's

the landscape today that being said the

reason for that is because we over the

years have placed more

emphasis on one partner versus having a

village to lean on so so we're we're

leaning more so we're we we're requiring

more from our partners so what that

means is that if we're requiring more if

we're requiring our partner to be we

want our partner to be our best friend

we all want to launch a business and be

a CEO right so we want our partner to be

co-ceo or coo we want our partner to be

a great parent we want our partner to

come home at night take their clothes

off and do backflips in the bedroom

right this is what we want this is what

we want so we want now more from that

one person versus 30 years ago 300 years

ago 3,000 years ago

300,000 years ago when when humans

really began 300,000 years ago so you

you you look at all this and you say wow

we want more so therefore for we're

going to have lower satisfaction so this

is what I believe the the landscape is

today and if we start then with people

that are looking for love people that

are in search of Love um how are the the

current tools

because I see so much online about how

people are disenfranchised with like

things like dating apps and they've

tried like social media and I've got so

many of my friends who are struggling at

the moment they're going on 100 dates a

year and they're unable to find anybody

and I I Ponder to myself I go you're

going on 100 dates a year you're almost

a professional data and you still can't

find

somebody it's surely that's not through

lack of options or like the top of the

funnel there the sort of exposure is

fine but there's something further down

the funnel as it relates to them being

able to convert somebody that seems to

be off right right but but also I would

argue that it could even stem you you

could go deeper to the root right so you

think about attachment Styles attachment

Styles I know you've talked a lot about

attachment Styles attachment styles are

kind of the hot thing the hot Trend that

people are talking about rightfully so I

like this and if you think about that

there are primarily three right we know

we have secure there's anxious and

there's avoidant there's there are other

uh variations but in essence these are

the three now depending on who you talk

to roughly 50 60% of the population are

secure that means the balance are going

to be anxious or avoidant or or or some

combination so therefore if you are on a

date and you have an anxious attachment

style or you have an avoidant attachment

style and you have someone in front of

you who is the perfect match for you

they're they're they're taking off all

the boxes you could be so anxious or so

avoidant that you push them away or you

lay blame to a certain character a

characteristic or a trait that they have

that means nothing to the relationship

and you dismissed them you you know um

this is going to sound funny but it's

sad is do you know what we found when we

were matchmaking what the number one

reason why people did not allow someone

someone to get a second date with

them they had a velcro

wallet velcro wallet are cool though you

change no they're not you can't no no

all right so you know what was it was

around attraction so one it was you know

physical attraction but in particular it

was cuz they they smelled really they

had bad breath halosis right or there

was some odor now you can argue that

scent plays a strong role in our partner

selection Dr Tara forart talks about

this quite quite a bit right so there

there's uh there's a evolutionary

biology that comes with scent yes I

agree but to look across from someone

and say you know what you you like you

like your breath stinks right and I'm

not going to give up the the second date

and as a result of your breath stinks

you have long uh fingernails you're

you're you're in a track suit right for

to to to look at these moments and say

because of this thing I'm going to

dismiss you as a partner I think for a

lot of people sounds logical but then

for a lot of people sounds ridiculous

you know what I mean now how you got to

that point is the challenge if you think

it's ridiculous how you got to assuming

that because someone has a tracksuit on

because they have long fingernails it

dismisses

their their um their validity of being a

great partner that is about you that is

about you your attachment that is about

how you've been socialized that is about

so I would argue that people who are

going on lots and lots and lots of dates

and they still can't feel like they can

find the right partner the first place

to look at is yourself I do Wonder this

because I think the more dates you go on

the more reference points of comparison

you then have for the next person so

date 101 if you've been on 100

previously you've now got a 100 guys who

are maybe all good at one thing and date

101 is going to be compared to the

previous 100 on all factors so maybe

date 49 had great sense of humor date 53

was rich date 67 was physically

beautiful now date 101 is going to be

compared to all previous dates on all of

those factors and you're always going to

find something that is less good at

least one factor that is less good than

someone you dat previously and I've

always wondered are you like

accidentally expanding your comparison

set by meeting more and more and more

and more and more people y so I think

this reads to uh Barry schwarz's work uh

with the Paradox of choice mhm where you

know what Barry Schwartz did with the

par Paradox of choice which is brilliant

is that when we're presented with more

options which is in essence all of these

dates when we choose one we have a less

level of satisfaction with the choice

because we saw that we had a 100 choices

versus if you have three choices and you

have to choose between one of those

three there's going to be a higher level

of satisfaction as a result a real life

example is my grandmother so my

grandmother grew up in I say the bush in

the bush in Jamaica okay super super

small town in Jamaica my grandmother

literally had five or six options as a

partner now as a result of my

grandmother having those options when

she chooses one person there's going to

be more value more emphasis even more if

you look at the investment Theory more

investment placed in one of those

options versus if she had a hundred

options and she makes a a choice that

choice with 100 options becomes more

disposable right so this is one issue

that we have in terms of giving

ourselves so many options the other

challenge with this is when you watch

people date they typically date the same

person you know it's typically it's

typically the S the same

characteristics even physically you know

the the the same

I argue that some of the greatest value

that we we can receive in the dating

Market if you want to look at as dating

Market is to take ourselves out of

our uh our our Market if you will and

put yourself in someplace different

right I call this the premium effect so

so so an example of this is I had a

friend who was a white woman roughly 35

years old who lived in Northern London

and she was like Paul I'm dating all

these guys you know I can't find the

right one blah blah blah blah blah blah

I said 'l look you love art don't you

she said yeah yeah I love art I said all

right I want you to take yourself down

to the black cultural archives in

Brixton and I want you to go to this you

know this exhibit that they're having

and she was like

brixon said I said yeah brickton is

brickton is cool I go there all the time

right I want you to go there now why did

I ask you to go I asked her to go

because the moment that she goes

characteristically she's not going to

look the same these are mostly going to

be black men and women perhaps even a

little bit younger than she is different

culturally right but yet they have the

same value in art and their appreciation

for creativity Etc the moment that she

goes there what happens some people in

the room look at her like what what she

doing here like why is she here those

are the close-minded people Carol dwick

talks about this in her book mindset we

have closed-minded open-minded those are

the

closed-minded but how do the open-minded

react to to my friend they lean in what

are you doing here and they're curious

and they engage and all of a sudden she

opens her network to a whole new group

of people some of those could be

romantic interest some of those could be

platonic they could be friends so when

we're dating the serial daters

especially the hundred people is it's

important for you to step outside of

your sphere if you will I want to pick

up on something there you said that

white woman went into a black space and

in that black space you wouldd be

considered a premium because basically

her characteristics make her rare yes

right I was just doing some research

then and it says that studies and

surveys in indicate that ethnic

minorities particularly Asian men and

black women often face unique challenges

in dating in both the UK and the US and

these challenges stem from a combination

of social stereotypes cultural biases

and the preference expressed on dating

platforms and the reason I'm asking this

question is to it's not a lived

experience I have because I'm not an

Asian man although sometimes people

think I am there are a group group of

people where I don't have a shared lived

experience who are struggling in ways in

the western world that like maybe me and

you don't understand yeah it no it

definitely definitely you know we we

have to understand that we exist in a

highly racist society and a lot of

people don't like to acknowledge it

don't like to talk about it like to

sweep it under the rug but when it comes

to dating it shows up like in this in

this statistic that you're talking about

now now let's think about this if you

are someone who is not black and you are

interested in a black I'm sorry you're

interested in a partner and then you're

and you've had no experiences with black

people other than maybe watching some

black people on on television and your

parents in your community have said all

kinds of crazy things about about black

people and you have all types of

negative belief structures around black

people and then and you're a man you're

say a white man and you're presented

with a black woman on a dating app are

you going to swipe on this person no

you're you're you're not because you

don't understand how incredible she is

how smart she is how beautiful she is

like you don't you have no appreciation

so the reason why they're Swip they're

not swiping is their ignorance that's

that's that's what it is and that's this

is the reason why one of the most

important things we can do is widen our

social groups this is the most important

thing I mean it positively impacts our

romantic relationships it positively

impacts our life is that we need to have

a diverse set of people that we interact

with and truly understand how beautiful

how beautiful people who are different

than us actually are is there a bit of a

systemic issue here as well because when

I was thinking about your grandmother

growing up in that Village in Jamaica

that you referenced she

would spend a lot of time because of the

nature of how she would meet that person

in the vill that other man in the

village getting to know him Beyond his

surface level appearance yes so if he

lived across the street she would

interact with him see his behavior he

might have long fingernails you know but

she she gets to learn that he's a kind

generous person and he's got a good

sense of humor so she can look past the

velcro wallet and the long fingernails

but in the way that we've designed

dating in the modern world where most

people now I believe are meeting online

in some form whether it's social media

or other we're actually purely judging

someone in the fingernails we have we

make a decision in a couple of seconds

whether this person is comp compatible

or not and obviously that's not possible

um and I just see I just feel this real

strong sense

of

um dissatisfaction

frustration and uh desperation yes from

people at the moment as it relates to

finding someone yes and I just think the

systems that we've built social

networking the screens have have only

exacerbated this frustration and

Desperation my question which is

somewhat linked to this is really around

the old ways of doing things like you

were talking about your grandmother and

I was really curious about one subject

in particular and wondered if you you

had any data on this which is arranged

marriages yes yes are arranged

marriages as successful as the

relationships we form today via social

media screens etc etc

because you know back in the day we were

kind of put together um with somebody

based on I don't know family or economic

reasons did those marriages succeed many

of us don't want to acknowledge how

successful arranged marriages actually

have been and continue to be really

continue to be but we have to look at

the why right now when people hear this

they immediately say oh well what about

all the abuse and the dissatis action

that happens in these relationships does

it happen absolutely but it also happens

in non arranged marriages at

significantly High rates so why are

arranged marriages so successful to some

researchers they have a higher level of

satisfaction than non- arranged

marriages and here's the reason why the

reason why is because you have families

coming together and negotiating and

determin in whether or not this

particular person fits within their

family structure and what does that mean

that means that you have literally a

mother a father a grandmother

grandfather a brother a sister who come

together and they discuss and debate the

characteristics they discuss and debate

whether or not this person is an

upstanding you know is this an

upstanding human being you know is is

this person open-minded is this person

going to be resourceful right are they

resilient they debate these

characteristics and the reason why it's

so beneficial is because the person

getting married is not involved and

they're not involved because they would

be entirely biased what happens today is

incredibly dangerous what happens today

is when we meet someone we typically do

not involve any friends and family we

are already infatuated with the person

so we're obsessed with them therefore we

can't even

determine whether or not they have any

of the traits that we want we are living

through our own

trauma and we're not even selecting them

typically they are selecting us so we

end up sliding if you will into a

relationship that was never right for us

to begin with whereas in arranged

marriages you have a true debate

happening around whether or not someone

will fit within that with within the

life of that individual another example

is why my wife and I in a matchmaking

agency we pioneered something that had

never been done at least to our

knowledge in

matchmaking like Stephen if you were a

client of ours you came you would be the

perfect client at that time right

because we had many men who were uh

incredibly successful professionally and

felt as if okay what I'm missing is I'm

missing love I'm missing partnership so

if you came to us as a client instead of

me saying all right Stephen tell me what

you want right and you give me this long

list I know you'd give me a list of like

150 things that you

want right instead I would say no no no

you go sit over there I'm not I'm not

even going to talk to you instead let me

talk to your

brother let me talk to your

co-workers let me talk to your exes yes

let me talk to your exes let me get a

360 perspective of who you you are from

the people who you are closest to and I

would then build out a profile based on

the consensus of what they're telling me

this is so

true I've got a one of my best friends

in the world has struggled with a few of

my best friends but there's two I'm

thinking about in particular but one I

really want to focus on he's struggled

in relationships for the last I'd say 15

years and every single time he gets in a

relationship as his friend I get that's

not that's not it that's not it and

every single time he gets with somebody

else I go that's not it either and I

after this last relationship failed I

sat with him and I I'm trying not to

like you know intervene too much but I

said bro I will know I feel like the

same way that he knew when I'd found the

right one and he would lit if I was to

dump my current partner he would

literally reverse the decision yes he

would write an executive order to

reverse the decision because he knows

that person is exactly what was right

for me in the same way I could literally

draw a picture I could tell you the

occup ATI the age of the the right

person for him based on knowing him and

him being my best friend for 10 15 years

but for some reason he goes for

everything opposite than that right and

I've always wondered this I've always

wondered like should we be picking our

friends partners for them no I if if as

a society we went back to our nearest

and dearest family and Social Circle

yeah and I want to emphasize the people

who we TR truly love cuz like not all

family's family yeah so if we had that

Circle making the decision for us we

would have much higher satisfaction

rates in marriages without question or

much higher satisfaction rates in in

Partnerships it's because of precisely

what you

said reading a study here it says a 2012

study published in the Journal of

comparative family studies found that

couples and arranged marriages in

collectivist cultures reported similar

or higher levels of satisfaction over

the long term compared to those in love

marriages yes yes go back Eli 80% of our

marriages have a lower level of

satisfaction today than than than any

point in in history and and you think

about even what we were uh you think

about the emphasis that we place on the

individual this this is something that

needs to really be emphasized because

the the more that we require our partner

to deliver everything to us the higher

their bar becomes the expectation and

the moment that they're not meeting that

expectation we're we're not satisfied

now they could be delivering on nine out

of 10 things but because our expectation

is 10 we have low satisfaction because

ultimately that's what satisfaction is

is satisfaction is really based on our

expectation so what do we do about that

because a lot of people will be able to

relate to this idea that their partner

is multiple things in their life or that

they feel like they are expected to be

their Partners therapist maybe

financier um best

friend uh Sports uh buddy on the weekend

to play paddle with um I don't know life

coach Etc some people will feel that

pressure while they're also trying to

run their own life what' you do about it

because you can't come home and say babe

listen it's over I'm only going to be

your boyfriend from now

on a lot of people people won't like

this but we have to lower our

expectation of our partners we really do

and and and what I mean by this is first

we have to be begin with determining

what do we want out of our partnership

because if we go back and we don't have

to go back thousands of years we can

literally go back to my

grandparents the decisions were not am I

going to get all 10 things from my

partner it is three of the the 10 things

and I'll be satisfied with the three of

the 10 things why because I have a full

community that I can go to of friends

co-workers colleagues people who you

know in my running club that I can go to

for uh for for other facets of my life

confidence intellectual stimulation

whatever it may be so that's where it

begins what what do you want from your

marriage then the next step becomes all

right are you then prepared to do the

work required to sustain that

relationship you know uh the the Gans

who I know you you've had on the podcast

and are really the foremost experts in

the world around couples therapy right

John and Julie gotman they said

something to me that was profound when I

was talking to them and that is we're

all compatible with each

other and and let that sit in for a

second it's like okay what does that

really mean what it means is

that if I were to drop you with another

human being on a desolate Island and say

that's it it's just the two of you for

the rest of your lives you were going to

form a very strong emotional bond and

chances are you're going to form a very

strong physical and sexual Bond right

why because you are required there's no

other outlet but to make it work with

them look at

today we don't feel like we have to make

it work there's countless options we can

just leave right and and so the this

notion that we are compatible with

everyone I think is profound because

what it means is that you can get

through that you can you can increase

your satisfaction by putting in the

work I um I can totally relate to that I

remember working in a call center once

upon a time and I was broke and lonely

and as I worked in this call center it

was late rooms call center in cheet Mill

in man Chester um I basically like fell

in love with the girl sat next to me in

the call center now listen um I've seen

her since I think 10 10 years later she

came to one of my meetting greets which

is she's called Rosie I literally she's

probably the first time she realized I

fell in love with her but in the context

of there not being many options and me

being a guy that basically had no other

options I wasn't going out to my clubs I

couldn't afford it I just fell in love

with someone who was in close proximity

and I just was really really into her

and it shocked me because

objectively speaking had I written down

what my type was at that period of my

life I wouldn't have written that but

just because we were held in close

proximity for long enough I found the

the the attraction yes it the attraction

came to be unfortunately that's not the

world we live in and in fact one of my

friends who's struggling the most in

relationships her job is literally to

meet people that's like the the base

premise of her job and she can't find

anyone MH and I think part of what we're

what what I'm seeing there is we've

described with having too many options

but what does someone do about that do

they like what's the what's the

actionable thing to do if you live in

the modern world and you're struggling

to find somebody even though you realize

that if you were held in a room with

five total strangers you'd probably fall

in love with one of them yeah it's it's

tough right but it always begins with

self and self-awareness and I would

literally start at well what is my

attachment that will inform an

incredible amount if she goes back and

does the work and realizes that she is

avoidant that will begin to fill in the

gaps as to why maybe she's been

emotionally distant relationships why

she feels like she doesn't need anyone

right why people need to jump an even

higher bar to be in a relationship with

her start with your attachment and

realize that if you are avoidant or you

are anxious you can earn a secure

attachment and there's work that's

involved but you can do that and by by

the way you can do that without a

therapist it's always advisable to go

with therapist but let's face it the

wait times for therapists the uh the

cost for a therapist they're they're not

and also the number of therapists on a

per capita basis is is decreasing so

they're not as accessible as often it we

we make it at the mount to see so that's

one is you want to start with self

that's one secondly is really get

grounded on the type of relationship

that you want and the reason why this is

important is because therefore you can

make it clear what your boundaries are

when you begin to engage with people

because I always say that if you don't

assert your boundaries you can take

well-intentioned people and turn them

into bullies just as a result of not

asserting your boundaries so in order to

know your in order to assert your

boundaries you have to know your

boundaries so that's the second piece is

beginning to know okay what do I want

what do I want for example there are

hundreds of variations of relationships

that you could have today my grandmother

right there was one it was committed

relationship committed marriage until

you die that was it now you don't have

to be married you could live apart but

be together see each other on weekends

you can decide I want we we don't want

to have children you can decide like

there are hundreds of variations

be very clear on what your what you want

and when I say assert your boundaries is

assert what you are interested in right

from the

beginning the the these three steps are

incredibly important I want to talk

about the different variations of

relationships and a lot of the sort of

myths that keep us held

in the the sort of modern idea of what a

relationship looks like okay but you

said something there which I which

sparked a thought that I had read in

your book um

when you said till death do us part yes

I read about this study that says that

cancer research on heterosexual couples

found that if a man becomes terminally

ill and his wife becomes the caretaker

there was a 2.9% separation rate if the

woman is terminally ill and their male

partner becomes the caretaker they leave

at a 21% rate which basically means that

men are approximately 64% more likely to

separate from a woman woman if the woman

gets sick yes and that was on page 48 of

your new book keep love yes what the

[ __ ] is going on there that is alarming

shocking and it was so alarming and

shocking I had to include the study in

the book for for me and and I wrote this

in the in the chapter around love is

conditional and we have to understand

that the myth that presents itself is

that love is unconditional it is you

know if you find the right person

there's no condition

that could be true with your children

right your child could go do something

heinous and I believe there could or

would still be love for them but that's

not the case with our partners and for

us to be aware that there are conditions

when we go into these relationships

that's the most important so it's almost

a warning sign in particular to women in

that chapter to say there there are

conditions and unfortunately when people

have gone through and interviewed these

men who have left the the the women at

at at on on their deathbed and even the

women because it's 2.9% of women leave

men even the women who've left the men

what they will say is that they're no

longer getting fill in the blank they're

no longer getting the emotional intimacy

they're no longer getting the physical

intimacy they're no longer getting the

you know you fill in the blank and as a

result of no longer getting this thing

and the thing is the

condition they're out so why men though

600 they're over 600% more likely to

leave a termin Le old partner than women

are yeah you know there's a

disproportionate amount of the

relationship that's placed on the

physical side of the relationship right

sex sex yeah you're like Paul say

actually what it is well it's it's not

all about sex right it's not all about

sex but what it typically means is that

there is a low level of satisfaction in

the relationship and as a result of

there being a lowlevel of satisfaction

and the low level of satisfaction could

come

from not having enough sex or not having

the sex that they like it could have

could be from there's a you know there's

no respect they don't feel like there's

equity in the relationship whatever it

may be but because there's already a low

level of satisfaction when they go into

a place where the the the the partner is

terminally ill they're more ready to

leave right this is normally what you

see what you see happen when you see um

a partner leave another partner where

you see infidelity happening is you see

that there was already a low level of

satisfaction the level of satisfaction

in the relationships not only dictate

the survivability of the relationship it

dictates the survivability of us there

was a study done James coin this this

one blew my

mind he pulled 200 patients who had

congenital heart disease right so not

terminally ill but as close as you get

to terminally ill and he was able to

look at the 200 and he broke down the

group based on those who have a high

level of satisfaction and those who have

a low level of satisfaction in their

relationship two years later the couples

who had a high level of satisfaction the

person in that partnership who had

congenital heart failure you know what

they died about 11% of the time so 11%

they died but those who had a low level

of satisfaction two years later

45% of them had

died think about that little greater

than three times the likelihood of death

because of the low level of satisfaction

in the relationship so the satisfaction

in the relationship is the key and this

is part of what I've been trying to

drive in this book and a lot of my

messaging is that we place too much

value on

longevity it's ridiculous when I sit

down for interviews typically the top

see and thank you for not asking me this

the typically the first two or third

question is Paul how so you've been

married for how long how long have you

been married how long have you been

married and the idea is that because

I've been married for 23 plus years that

I'm successful in my marriage it's

ridiculous it's ridiculous the question

should be how satisfied are you in your

marriage or in your partnership and so

we can't we have to stop putting

emphasis U on on the longevity and

really focus on the satisfaction how

satisfied are you in your marriage

Stephen

this

[Music]

[Laughter]

is I hate you fing this question no no I

am so the reason why I your wife and we

got her answer before so we'll just

compare yeah you tell me what she said

you sure you want to know on on

air what the reason why I hate trying to

answer a question like this is because

so many people are say oh I don't

believe I don't believe what this guy

say

truly hand on my heart word to my

children I have the highest level of

satisfaction with Jill you know with my

best friend today than ever ever ever

ever ever ever and I think the reason

for this is because of the enormous

amount of work that we put in you know a

lot of people don't realize is that when

I read a

stat Jill is typically right next to me

last night literally last night we're in

the bed and we are talking about the

history of marriage and we're debating

Clovis the first of Franks and how he

made an impact in relationships we're

always discussing these topics and as a

result of having the conversation around

these topics it helps us to be open it

helps us to dialogue it helps us to

debate it helps us to have doubt it

helps to have trust and autonomy and

therefore it helps us to have this

strong level of communication and

emotional intimacy that then feeds into

all aspects of our life into our sex

life right into our ability to parent

our our our children into our work right

all of this feeds from having the strong

connection so the satisfaction is Sky

High and this is a topic that it was

funny because I was like I know Stephen

does the research so he could have asked

Jill I am very confident Jill would say

the same the reason why is because we

always check in with each with each

other we're always check how are you

feeling right now right are do we feel

like we're going in the right direction

you know when I think about do you have

strong satisfaction in your relationship

the questions that always come to mind

is do you feel safe with your partner do

you feel safe do you feel like you can

express your true vulnerability to them

right that's one secondly is do you feel

respected you know with John gottman's

research number one you know he saw he

could predict divorce at 99 plus perc or

90 plus perc because of contempt or

disrespect in the relationship so do you

feel like you have

respect another one are you optimistic

about where the relationship is going

which suggests how much effort and work

your part is placing in the relationship

so many of us are hopeless about the the

future is because we know our our our

partner's not doing anything to to to to

further the relationship so are you

nurturing the

relationship many of us are quick to

focus on self-love now and nurturing

ourselves but the question is how much

nurture are you giving to the

relationship because that's a separate

entity you talking there about sort of

the pillow talk with Jill about

relationships and constantly it being

part of the conversation in your

household one of the things that I was I

was pondering as you said that is should

we spend more time talking about the

relationship with our partner because if

I think about the relationship I'm in

now we spend a lot of time talking about

the relationship um whereas in previous

relationships it was kind of the

elephant in the room all the time so we

never really had an opportunity or a

forum

to ask those questions right about unmet

needs or are you happy etc etc and I

just think that probably the missing

piece for a lot of people in

relationships is they just don't have a

a space in their week where they sit and

talk about the relationship itself yes

so so yes should we be speaking more

absolutely would it save many

Partnerships absolutely would it

increase the satisfaction absolutely do

we not have enough time I would say this

becomes our copout like we're so busy

with life think about this I'm so busy

with life that I can't give the person

that I plan to spend the rest of my life

with time right we have to

prioritize our relationship with our

partner we have to prioritize this we

have to figure out when we can build in

time to talk and we have to actually

talk about the real things you know I'm

willing to bet that most men don't even

realize especially in in in in

heterosexual relationships

heteronormative uh relationships most

men don't even realize that their

partner doesn't even orgasm when they

have sex like you look at the orgasm Gap

and you say oh my God you have men

orgasming at 95% and women at roughly

65% maybe a little bit higher in in

these committed relationships that means

that there's a significant percentage

that never orgasm I bet you their

partner has no idea no noide idea why

because there's there hasn't been a

conversation around it now the issue is

a two-way street it's not only the man's

issue that he needs to be aware and have

the conversation but she also needs to

be able to tell him but you know why she

probably doesn't tell him

because she doesn't want herur his

feelings she has not she's not been

having an orgasm for the last 10 years

so she feels like if she brings it up

now it's going to be detrimental to the

relationship so she's trying to protect

him right right and or she's embarrassed

or whatever it may be he is completely

oblivious and unaware and they never

talk about their sex life a matter of

fact their sex life is a script which is

typically most people's sex life it's

just a script it's two or three moves

that are done man orgasms women woman

doesn't that's

it think of how powerful it would be if

they could just simply have dialogue and

discussion it's hard to start that

behavior though I imagine in your Rel

reltionship with Jill you guys are

pretty Advanced right so if you're level

one what's level one in karate is it

like a white belt oh yeah white belt if

you're like a white belt in this stuff

where there been 10 years you and your

partner just really don't talk about

these things it's kind of always been

the elephant in the room loads of words

have been unsa what would you suggest as

like a good starting point to to get the

ball rolling in this Direction all right

I like this so baby steps so in the book

I talk about how we have to normalize

the fact that we will be attracted to

people other than our partner no one

wants to talk about that no one wants to

talk about you know it's just my partner

that's it I'm not looking at anyone else

right are you attracted to other people

oh my Sten come on man are

you AB but but absolutely absolutely and

not only that and there are different

forms of Attraction you know there's

physical there's there's sexual

attraction there's there's emotional

attraction but to your question of what

do you do if you're level one in your

relationship is you start with these

baby steps so Jill and myself we had to

start around this topic of Attraction

because I had a very hard

time just thinking about my wife being

attracted to someone else I couldn't

fathom it the jealousy the anxiety the

anxiousness I have an anxious attachment

style so so it just it was just fear

right and there there many different

things that that that that you can do

but I'll give two one is that you just

have to normalize that these behaviors

are a part of our Human Experience well

all have physical attraction some of us

will have sexual attraction some of us

will have emotional attraction to people

who are not our partners if anyone

denies it they are lying okay this is

one we have to normalize this we

normalize it then we begin having

conversations around it so what my wife

and I used to or did around this and she

uh will hate me for saying this but I

wrote I wrote this in the book so it's

it's it's cool is um we started talking

about celebrities easy low-level way

people who are arm length distance who

do you find attracted blah blah blah I

saw that my wife as does I think

99.999% of uh women and Men loves Idris

Elba she's like Idris is is is is it to

the point where I was like will you

leave me for I think she will leave me

for it's like she will definitely leave

me for this man but we begin having

conversations around it it becomes a bit

of a joke right it is embedded in our in

in the normalization of it and then I

begin to do what I call taking my

thought to court take your thoughts to

court right whereas I would identify

okay what is the issue what's the

emotion it's actually fear if Jill's

talking about someone else she was with

it was it was fear but then I and then

then I then I draw on that fear what am

I in fear of I'm in fear of her of her

leaving me she's just going to leave me

right but then take that thought to

court what are the facts that can that

that what are the facts that I have to

support or discredit those feelings well

I've been with Jill for 20 plus years

right she has never we have a high level

of satisfaction it's normal to have

attraction right so you take your

thoughts to court and then you could

begin to recalibrate your perspective on

the thing so it gets to the point where

do you know that every

anniversary Jill gets the biggest

bouquet of flowers

from Idris

Elba I write love Idis Elba so I I'm I'm

writing so I've now it's now it's moved

to a point where I couldn't even stand

this idea to now it's it's so normalized

I'm I'm it's jokes about it so so it's

very important for us to normalize have

these conversations take our thoughts to

court and if we are and we have to

realize this and I wrote about this in

the book is that it is also

healthy to have doubts about your

relationship we're told that if you're

in the greatest

relationship if you found your soulmate

you should never have doubts myth myth

right it's healthy to have doubts but

there are healthy doubts and there's

unhealthy doubts if it is a doubt that

is

about uh the growth of your

relationship that's healthy to express

that if it is a doubt that is predicated

in your own fear or your anxieties your

traumas that's that's that's unhealthy

so to know that informs you know how how

how how how Jill and I have have tackled

that idea of let's normalize a

conversation is this a healthy doubt it

is let's build this into to to our

relationship so Jill so uh I know jills

adors ID Ela and she knows I would leave

her for Beyonce yeah I mean that's

fair yeah I I just I can just imagine

that I've got a certain type of listener

who is

more how would you word

it advanced in terms of the like belt

you know when I talked about white belts

and black belts more advanced in their

curiosity their um Intrigue their

willingness to like develop and evolve

in the relationship I would bet and this

is stereotyping I understand that it's

typically women more than men that are

like more open-minded to like learn to

grow to deepen the bond I think it's t

typically women more than men I would

Hazard a guess that it's more women

buying your books than men yes and and

I'd Hazard a guess that when I make

conversations about love and

relationship it's typically not always

because I can kind of see the numbers

but typically more women that are trying

to learn to deepen their relationships

so I imagine there's a certain person in

my audience that sat there thinking I

want to do this I want to have these

conversations with my partner I want to

take down some of these walles and start

talking about the lack of orgasms I've

had in the last couple of years I want

to talk about x y and Zed but I know if

I bring this conversation up to Dave

Dave's gonna like think I'm weird he's

gonna like roll his eyes and like put

the football back on and um and I feel a

sense of dissatisfaction in this

relationship but because we just don't

have a bridge of communication I feel

like I'm faced with a choice now do I

just leave this guy or do I just stick

tolerate it and put up with this and

that like first step to Bridging the Gap

what is it do I turn the football off

and scream at him do I do I send him the

link to this podcast I think that's

probably the best option I think it's

just keep sharing the podcast I think I

think sharing the podcast with everyone

you know I think is probably the I'm

joking no no no no no no

no laughing I was like I was with you I

was like this is this is it but I

thought it's really pushing this yeah

yeah he said it five times the

link

truly this is the first step uh so say

it's uh it's uh it's lah and Dave yeah

okay L's listening to us right now and

she wants to deepen her emotional

connection with her partner Dave what

does she do she sends Dave a link to

this podcast and she says let's listen

to this together let's have a date night

let's listen to this together and let's

just talk about what's happening you

know what I've noticed with um with one

of the shows that I co-host mared at

First Sight UK what I'm so proud about

is I'm stopped all the time by men and

they'll say Paul I watch your show with

my partner and our kids watch it as well

and we debate what you're saying and

sometimes we disagree with you but

sometimes we agree with you and I think

this is what we need because just

talking about it and having the

conversation around it helps to

contribute to awareness which puts you

on the path to developing skills which

then allows you to begin to heal and

ultimately that's what therapy is

therapy is healing and so having the

dialogue based on this podcast based on

a book based on a television show is

truly not just a first step that's a a

significant step towards your black belt

I am thinking about the history of

relationships I often wonder how many of

the rules of relationships that we've

been handed by Society are now invalid

or maybe we're never valid so you know

we have these sort of constructs of like

marriage and monogamy and um even like

heterosexuality all these things that

have been passed to us through religion

and through history I was looking at

some stats about marriage and it says

that in 2019 marriage rates for opposite

sex couples fell to their lowest on

record since

1862 that's in the UK and in the US

marriage rates have been declining since

the early

1970s I I'm not married but I spend a

lot of time thinking about whether I

should be or not I actually had a

conversation recently with my partner

where I said do you want to get married

and it was abundantly clear that she

does want to get married but then I

asked why and really it seems like it

was really just more for the wedding

than

then for some kind of legal contract

that we sign with the government so I'm

I'm I'm I'm really wondering based on

everything we know about history and the

tradeoffs of marriage should I be

getting married yes because your partner

wants to is that reing enough but but

here all right so um I think the

institution of

marriage what you're going to see this

is my my my prediction is is that

because nuclear families what do you

mean by nuclear family so having um to

well it's interesting there's there's

different perspectives now on nuclear

family but I look at it as you have two

partners and children and that creates

the nuclear

family that becomes an economic unit

which drives a

society and as that has disappeared

there's been less of a base

to drive Society per many researchers so

as a result what I believe is going to

happen as we see right now in Singapore

as we see right now in China as we see

right now in Japan you're going to see

government heavily involved in

incentivizing marriage and marriage is

already incentivized right now in terms

of uh you know tax benefits uh being

able to um uh you know leave assets

to your partner leave assets to family

members so as a result of the decrease

of marriage and decrease of of nuclear

families you will see government step up

even more to incentivize so you're going

to see all types of benefits being

thrown at people to to to to get married

you know especially as you not only see

marriage rates decline but as you also

see birth rates declining as they as

they are now your question around what

what what should you do is that um this

is a question around

values and this is a question that I

believe is very important to have early

on now I was saying you know when you

meet someone you should lay out exactly

what you want this is a very important

question to have early early on now in

terms of where you where you are with

your partner I would say that if she is

for if she is Pro Pro

this and you were indifferent sounds

like it feels like you're indifferent

not anti but indifferent yeah I think

I'm I'm somewhat agnostic um to it

however I can call out a bunch of

downsides to getting married really like

uh well again I don't know because I'm

not married so all the married people

are like screaming at me right now I

know this because they DM me they've

been dming me for many many years since

I started the D Co because in some of

those early episodes I was really like

not I was really quite against it but um

over time I've kind of developed my

thinking here I just wonder I can't

understand the first principles as to

why having a like government or

religious contract with somebody is

going to increase the probability of

success in the union of Love um there's

obviously the issue with the prenup

situation I actually don't have this

concern with my my partner so I think

she's um I think you've met her you

you've met her yeah yeah uh yeah from a

distance yes from a distance yeah I I

don't a concern that she's going to try

and bankrupt me or that I might try and

bankrupt her um so that's not really a

concern um the whole charade of like

doing a massive wedding I think is a

little bit weird I think why can't we

just have lots of events over the next

50 years where we bring our friends and

family versus like one I've also watched

a couple of my friends at the moment who

are getting married the the like two

years of pain in heart a can like

canceling date nights so that they can

afford this one wedding day yeah feels

like highly logical to me I've got one

particular friend who is having to

cancel so much of their like everyday

joy to save up for this one big event

which is stressing them both out and I

don't think they're going to have well I

don't think he's going to have a great

time at the wedding anyway because he

seems so stressed by it all I just I

sometimes hear that people can't like

get out of their marriage without having

to like file a divorce um thing with

like the with through lawyers and going

to court and battling out in court I

just think you should be free to leave

if you want to leave

I don't know I just

think this is a terrible analogy and

completely unrelated but like in

football many of the problems we see

with my favorite Club Manchester United

at the moment is we've got people on

fiveyear contracts who we just can't get

rid of and like they want to go we want

them to go but because we sign these

long contracts with them it's like

incredibly difficult and you now these

players have been like thrown in the

back room and they're not playing

football and we're like just completely

ignoring them because we can't get out

the contract yes so I I just think yeah

I hear you I hear you all right can we

talk about this yes all right there are

many secular marriages so you don't have

to do anything religious

related and it sounds like a big

difficulty that you have could could be

the the number one is the

wedding because but the wedding to me

the premise of it is a public

Declaration of your love and to your

point it could be a small as you want it

could be as big as you want you could

have as many as you want right that

public declaration Could Happen 50 times

over 50 years it is up to you so that is

you and your partner navigating that

space with regard to getting out of it

this is the single biggest change that

we need in marriages marriages in my

opinion should be much harder to get

into you shouldn't be able like

literally you and your partner could go

to Vegas Drive up so a drive-thru you

could have an Elvis Presley impersonator

marry you you pay

$25 and you're married it's ridiculous I

think that there needs to be there needs

to be hurdles in place there needs to be

some type of vetting some type of

premarital coaching counseling so

everyone is aware of the commitment that

is about to be made and you have the

tools you have skills around Conflict

Management Etc needs to be

hard but then if you want out you should

be able to get out in an hour it should

be easy drive up Elvis Presley says it's

over

$25 it's free yeah yeah free right

that's the way it should be but it is

the the the the the reverse now you're

right marriage is hard to get out of

that's changing there's now the

introduction especially in the UK of the

no fault right but but that still takes

it still could take 6 months or so there

still is a lot of haggle so so I I agree

with you there is that it should be much

easier to get out but

ultimately what marriage is is marriage

is a declaration of commitment done in a

formal way can you not do that without

the marriage like can you not do a

declaration of commitment without having

to go to like a church or whatever else

and sign documents and stuff I don't

know is it not possible I it is you know

it is it is so I think I just have

commitment issues I think that's

probably what it is yeah I think that's

the core of it because you know what's

so interesting to me is that you're

already going to well how do I get out

of this yeah right and it almost feels

as if there is a

fear of

committing to someone for the rest of

your life because that that's a massive

I mean think about this you're going to

commit to someone for the rest of your

life for the rest of your days and what

we feel because I've been there because

when I I'm getting anxiety as you say it

I'm like [ __ ] know the rest of my

life the rest of your

life but think about this the anxiety is

the fear of what is not even come yet so

that means that you can now interrogate

your

thoughts okay you have fear over what

what's the

fear but isn't it just a terrible idea

to commit to someone till death do you

part because like imagine if I said to

you you got to pick a job and then you

got to do it forever yes you would the

amount of procrastination that would

occur because of the significance of

that decision would would basically stop

you picking any job at all because you'd

be like I can know I got to pick one and

do it forever and you know you'd be

you'd become a perfectionist you know

you'd be looking for perfection in every

single job and maybe this is in part the

issue is that because we see marriage as

being such a final thing that we really

have to make sure the pick is perfect is

perfect I agree this is one of the myths

right this whole notion of till death do

us part which really was handed to us in

religion if you look through

Christianity Hinduism even a lot of the

modern day Islamic marriage ceremonies

there's some formation of you will be

with this partner for the rest of your

life and I think what that does is it

actually sets us up for a lower level of

satisfaction it sets us up for

complacency oh this is all we get right

it instead they can't leave me they

can't leave me so therefore I don't have

to try as hard I don't even have to talk

to them now yeah I don't have to get to

the gym no I can just sit here like

so that is a myth though because we know

where where divorce rates are separation

rates are we know that there are you can

get a divorce so you can get out she can

get out we have to we have to put that

to the side but the key is is to think

about when I always like interrogate the

fears is well what's the

upside what's the upside of having a

partner for Life what what would you say

upsides I mean I could also name the

upsides I think so there's a certain

sense of stability and focus that comes

when you know that home is kind of

locked down so as an entrepreneur in

particular I I advise anybody that's

going to pursue a big grueling

tumultuous uncertain challenge like

building a business business to have a

partner at home um and and I know Sir

Alex Ferguson was big on this when he

was selecting players for Manchester

United he would often inquire about

whether they were in a relationship

because if they had a stable home life

then they would be much more focused on

a training ground and I see that with

myself you need a stable base um if

you're single I think as an entrepreneur

it can become an immense distraction an

immense distraction because on one hand

you're trying to build something over

here and you're trying to build

something over here I think marriage is

useful as well because when you know

that it's hard to get out of it means

that exiting isn't the path of least

resistance which means that you you

probably will go to therapy first and

you probably will see if you can fix it

and figure it out versus just throwing

it away yes so it becomes less

disposable yes which means that you're

more likely to fight to fix the thing um

and what are the other upsides

um I mean the stats right so the stats

around health and wealth all suggest

that if you're in a good productive

healthy relationship you're going to

earn more money I think it's 4% more a

year in a productive uh marriage both

Partners net earn 4% more a year and

according to Robert waldinger who came

on the show you're going to live longer

so I get it yeah and you're going be

healthier you're going to be healthier

yeah yeah L less disas come on Stephen I

know you know do you know what it is I'm

not trying to throw the marriage out I'm

wondering if there's an alternative

which do you know what it is part of me

as well if you look at the way I've live

my life I've always tried to test the

system so school like not going to

school dropping out of University being

an entrepreneur there's always been a

bit of a [ __ ] you and me to the system

and a real pause in questioning what I'm

being handed as the right answer to

interrogate whether it's still valid now

okay so like many of the answers I was

given you go to university then you go

get a job and then you hand out your CV

all of these things proved in my life to

just be BS there was a better way so

when I I'm approached with a

conventional system like marriage

immediately I go hm let's interrogate

this thing and I would say I'm with you

throw the system out think about just

one thing and you you said this and

there's research behind this it's the

investment model Right theory so the

more you

invest in the preparation of your

partnership in the actual partnership

the more that you're investing time res

all resources the higher satisfaction

you have that's fact right that's that's

that's research that's in essence what

you're saying right so that's the way I

that I would approach it is how can I

invest as much as I can in this

partnership with this person that I love

what is it that predicts a successful

marriage in your view well once again

what is success is it to to me success

is high satisfaction High satisfaction

is has a strong correlation around

well-being uh Dr Carol riff I think is

the OG of well-being she doesn't get

enough credit she created a model called

The Six Dimensions of psychological

well-being and in essence if we are

working to increase each one of these

Dimensions so for example one is having

a vision of your life like what is that

Vision that you have for life and the

question though is do you feel like you

are actively in pursuit of that Vision

if you don't feel like you know what

your vision is or you're not in pursuit

of it you're going to have lower

well-being right so the higher

well-being that you have

individually the higher satisfaction you

have in your

relationship the more successful your

relationship is all that like

fundamental qualities that I should be

looking for in a good partner oh yeah I

mean there's a million but the the core

the core that I I like to write about is

and and I'll actually I I'll even uh

synthesize it you want to have a partner

who is aware of their well-being and who

is focused on their well-being this this

is this is incredibly important because

one of the most profound re uh bits of

research that I I feel like I included

in the book is that most of us believe

that having

alignment in the values of our partner

is the most successful or is the high is

the number one determinant of having a

successful partnership we think it's

about values we're told it's about

values we're fed values which by the way

goes back to you know where that goes

back

to religion you know how have you heard

of you need to be equally yolked no oh

you haven't heard this you're not

reading your

Bibles exp me all right

so the

Bible talks about you have to have a

partner you have to find a partner who's

equ equally yolked what does that really

mean equally yolked comes from oxen

right so two you have one Ox here one Ox

here they're tethered together they're

plowing the land if they're walking lock

step they can plow the land if you have

one going off this way one going off

this way you can't plow the land you

can't produce so the Bible says you need

to have a partner who is equally

yolked pastors then interpreted that

over the years to be what values you

need to have a partner who shares your

value vales has the same religion has

the same accent this is how we became

regimented in class this happened

Century after Century after Century

right we get to today you ask anyone on

the street we grab 10 people nine out of

10 would say and and we said how

important are values nine out of 10

would say values is

everything

what values change they change I value

things much differently today than I did

10 years ago our values change they're

not constant we need to throw away

values are they important yes are they

the most important no so therefore let's

deemphasize the focusing on finding

someone who matches all of our values

instead well-being key are they focus on

their well-being that's one two yeah

values is important but you know what

what's what's what's equally if not

more is you know what how open-minded

are they like H how how how much do they

lean in how how curious are they and

then the third is how resilient are they

because having a relationship with

anyone means tough times so are they

able to bounce back or when things get

tough do they just lay on their back so

if you have a partner who's resilient

you have a partner who's open-minded you

have a partner who's focused and

nurturing their well-being you have a

great partner what about ambition does

that matter I I think ambition is a

value set okay

e yeah I just wonder because a lot of

people would say that they want that in

a partner but just by I mean like

running the mental numbers not everybody

can be ambitious and people that aren't

necessarily hugely ambitious also find

love and keep love but when you ask them

on what they're looking for they'll tend

to have a preference towards someone

who's ambitious or goal

orientated one of the things we talked

about kind of in between the lines was

how Society has changed and one of the

ongoing conversations in dating at the

moment is around how women are

struggling to find compatible men

because women are more educated I think

there's more women graduating with

college degrees now the top 10% of men

seem to be having all of the sex

According to some studies that I read a

lot of the sex and then there's this

bottom 50% of men that are somewhat

disenfranchised because they they're not

getting the attention they're probably

turning to things like pornography women

are dating up into the right I'm told so

women I did read a study that said the

majority of women are still looking for

a man who's earning more than them but

in a world of equality which we all

agree is a good thing where women are

more educated now there's there isn't

enough men up and to the right anymore

so there's this sort of disparity

between you know what women are looking

for but actually what's available in the

market

potentially these these these are all

facts however we have to in we have to

interrogate the this this this data but

more so I think we have to interrogate

The Narrative that's being handed to us

so I feel like the The Narrative that's

being handed us today is that you know

what the top 20% of men or 10% of men

they're good but the bottom 80% you

suck that couldn't be further from the

truth and I think we have to acknowledge

and this is where uh you know two things

could be true one we live in a

patriarchal society absolutely

absolutely

but do we need to extend more grace to

our men absolutely we do are men lonlier

than they ever have been absolutely are

men confused absolutely right are men

being misled absolutely let's extend

more grace to our men what does that

mean that means being aware that we do

live in a loneliness epidemic

being aware that less than 27% of men

have a friend that they can feel is a

confidant that 0% of them now feel like

they have someone who they can go to at

3:00 a.m. in the morning it's being

aware of these things it is saying you

know what I um can appreciate other

traits and characteristics outside of

how much you earn or how tall you are

right these are it's important to be

able to understand and and you just

asked me you said where are the most I

said nothing about how much money

someone makes nothing about how tall

they are right but at the same time what

we have to understand is the narrative

that is handed to about women is that

all women are looking for the six foot

plus CEO right who's making over 100,000

pounds or dollars a year and that is

also not the case this study here says

despite advancements in gender equality

resarch indicates that better educated

women still tend to prefer husbands who

earn more than they do that's from The

Institute for family studies an analysis

of online dating behaviors across 24

countries found that women are more

selective than men showing a marked

preference for men um with high incomes

and education levels which which again

proves this up and to the right thing

but there's just not enough men up and

to the right so there's going to be a

lot of women that are somewhat

dissatisfied according to this all right

so the challenge if if I'm really

interrogating this is one is it's

talking about High educated women so we

know that Highly Educated women are on

average dating hypergamous right which

is what you're talking about up so

someone who's dating someone who has the

same or higher level of Education the

same or higher level of financial

resources and why is that because that's

the script that Society handed to women

to say the only way you can survive is

by finding a man who can deliver this to

you right right that's and and I think

we have to accept where it came from it

was this terrible Society of you know

what you're not going to be safe unless

you find a man who could provide but you

fast forward to to

today a large percentage of high Highly

Educated women are dating this way but

that's not all women the other part is

yes are women beginning to out earn men

and outeducate men absolutely in certain

cities

not in every everywhere of the world men

on average still earn more income so so

so if you look at at at at the The

Narrative that's handed to us you could

say well you know what men on average

Still Still earn more but my point is

this my point is that I think we all

need to

re-evaluate what it is that we want no

longer do we need to have a partner for

most of us or should I say this is me

speaking out of privilege for many of us

in the west no longer do we need to have

a partner for pragmatic reasons if you

think about maso's hierarchy of needs

and you just divided it into three

categories you would say the bottom the

bottom kind of rung is all of our

psychological and physical needs food

shelter right then that kind of middle

rung is belonging and connection and the

top rung is selfish evolved self you

know we want to be you know we you know

well self- evolved living our best self

contributing the most that we ever could

to this

world marriage and partnership and

selecting a partner was largely based on

that lower rung all the way through to

the 1960s that's like yesterday if you

think about how long we've lived but

it's that Evolution as well because you

see the same thing in the animal kingdom

with like the orangutang which has like

98% the same DNA as us they still select

for survival

factors so I think what's interesting

when you look at uh different

mammals and the uh the The evolutionary

biology is that there's lots of

similarities but then there's also lots

of traits that are different you know so

it's it's one of those where we have to

appreciate that as Homo

sapiens we are unique and we live in a

structure that we have largely created

ourselves

we're talking we're debating about the

institution of marriage I mean marriage

didn't exist for the vast majority of

our existence but this Golden Rule thing

you told me about this yeah and you told

me that it's cross-cultural yes so so it

is and this Golden Rule thing please

explain it for people but for me that is