what advice would you give me to make

sure that my relationship stays fresh

and new and spicy actually there's a

great study that when people their

sexual desire for the partner goes up Dr

tally Sher she's a neuroscientist author

one of the world's leading researchers

On Emotion decision making and how to

change our brains for the better this is

negatively affecting your life and you

don't know it we have a study where we

asked people what was your favorite part

on your vacation and we found the peak

of enjoyment was 43 hours into the

vacation and people used one word more

than any other word and it was the word

first the first view of the ocean the

first cocktail and then the joy goes

down and down and down why it's because

the input into your neurons is constant

and when things are not changing our

brain just stops responding and the

problem is that even if you're living

your absolute best life great

relationship a good job comfortable home

after a while those things don't bring

us the joy that they should cuz when

something is always in front of you you

stop attending to it that's true also

for the not so great thing around us

sexism racism cracks in our

relationships after a while we don't

notice them and if we don't notice them

we don't change them one reason why

happiness is low in midlife is because

things are a little bit more routine the

problem is we really don't like Risk

taking so how do we change that two main

things one is

quick one this is really really

fascinating to me on the back end of our

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deal

tell welcome back thank you for having

me back to be here for those people that

aren't familiar with your career can you

give us a little bit of an overview of

your academic background but really I

guess the summary of the mission that

you're on and the work that you've done

what are you trying to understand what

is it that you're you're trying to do

with your professional life so in very

general terms I'm trying to understand

human behavior why do people do what

they do why do they feel the way that

they do um and I use a lot of different

methods to try to understand that so I

use Neuroscience method I really kind of

try to look inside people's brains also

I look at Behavior so I'm kind of

combining psychology brain science I

also combine economics to try to

understand motives to try to understand

needs um and hopefully use that not only

for us to understand human brains better

but also to make our life better perhaps

make better decisions for anyone that's

listening to this right now that is has

a vision of who they want to become and

it's different from who they currently

are in some way habits behaviors they

want to adopt is step one awareness is

that step one awareness of your own CES

and thoughts and patterns one thing you

should concentrate on and be aware of is

what is already good about yourself

right so not only what do I want to

become which I'm not but what am I which

is great what already great skills I

have right personality traits I have

because those are things that you can

build on right and so look at it not

only in this kind of negative way but

look at it in a positive ways and so

once once you've that yes then we can

say okay this is my goal right and the

next thing is how do I go from where I

am to this goal and if you have a

specific plan and you you're not

necessarily going to follow that exact

plan right but if you have a plan and

you kind of really think through the

details what happens is that if you can

imagine that vividly that will then

create your belief that it's more likely

to happen right if we have a specific

plan concrete that makes a feel it's

more likely to happen and if we think

it's more likely to happen we're more

likely to follow through and then

there's a lot of little tricks of how to

get us to follow through uh one really

important one is looking at your

progress so say you want to go to the

gym

and at the first week you only go once a

week and then the next week you go twice

a week or maybe when you're go you go

the first time you go you're only

running on the treadmill for 10 minutes

right and then next time 20 minutes but

put down those numbers so you can

actually see them cuz when people can

actually see their progress that is

extremely motivating right you always

want to be a little bit above from where

you were so that's that's one thing

that's hugely important is there sort of

scientific research that supports this

idea that progress has a very sort of

motivational impact on people yes

absolutely there are great studies one

study that I'm thinking of um was where

people had to do a task which required

them to learn the rules and they would

get money um rewards for doing it well

and every so often they ask people how

are you feeling right now what they

found is yes when people got rewards

when they got money they were feeling

good but turns out that they felt the

best when they learned something new

right when they

progressed that's when they were really

feeling the best and there was there's

another study in which people could play

one of two games one game all the rules

were clear it was really easy for them

to do the best that they could do in

another game there was a bit of

uncertainty they had to learn it wasn't

clear right it was challenging to some

some respect and they could play those

two games and then every every few

minutes they said okay you could stay in

this game or you can move to the other

game what they found is people liked to

play the game where they had to learn

where there was uncertainty they did not

like to play the game where they always

did well where there were not

progressing where there's nothing to

learn so progress is really something

that we strive for and when it happens

that really makes us feel better right

it makes us feel like we're moving

forward we don't like this St even if

where you are is great right really

really great after a while it's not

enough right you want to expand you want

to progress those subject matters appear

in your new book look again when you're

talking about the import of variety in

our lives and it really shows up in all

aspects of Our Lives this need for

variety um which you're kind of talking

about there people want to try something

new they want to learn something new

they want to be stimulated in some way

it's very true in work you talk about

that a lot and as an employer really

kind of hit me that one of the

most effective things I could do to keep

my team members motivated would probably

be to like change their jobs quite often

or at least add new elements to their

responsibilities quite often

yeah what the book is about is about

habituation and habituation is basically

the phenomena which governs basically

every part of our brain which is we

don't respond to things that don't

change when things are constant where

they're not changing our brain just

stops responding and once you do change

things around even a little bit then we

start responding

again and at work you know it's often

the case in in big companies for example

that people will take employees and will

let them rotate through different

divisions once in a while right because

if you're staying at the same place

doing the same thing over and over and

over and over again you become

complacent to some extent right but once

you change you're now talking to maybe a

little different people maybe the

projects are a little bit

different then you start you start

encoding again it also enhances your

creativity the word habitu is quite a

long word I'm sure most people won't be

familiar with the word probably never

heard it before I didn't hear about

habituation until I was doing a lot of

research ahead of my book and came

across a lot of your research but a

really interesting way to

illustrate what habit habituation is is

with images like this now tell me tell

me what's going on here we're going to

put this image on the screen and also

for those that of you that are listening

on audio there will be a link to this

image in the description of this episode

but essentially when you look at this

image in the center of this image for 30

seconds especially when you're looking

at it on a computer screen all of the

colors disappear if you stay focused on

that black dot in the middle of this

image for 30 seconds so this was a

discovery by um a Austrian physi

physician in 1804 what he discovered is

that if you look you have to not move

your eyes so fixate on the black cross

and don't move your eyes the colors fade

away they become gray and if you're

really good at this I've done this a few

times and I was I was able to do this

actually the gray goes away and the

whole thing just becomes

white why is that it's because the input

into your neurons if you're not moving

your eyes um is constant so the neurons

are just getting the same input so they

stop responding they're like well

there's nothing new here you know let's

save our resources for something else

that's going to come along so you stop

noticing the color all together and that

that is habituation now once you move

your

eyes color comes back right or if

anything moves in the background like

yeah well you do yeah yeah so then um if

you're moving your eyes then the input

into different norns change and then you

consciously perceive the colors again

and I think it's the same in our life if

everything is constant we don't perceive

the good and we don't perceive the bad

but if we move our eyes enough you know

metaphorically then we'll start noticing

and Feeling Again do all animals do this

habituation thing yeah so it's something

really fundamental you see this in every

living creature um and I think to me

that's what's so interesting about this

right because something that seems to

affect every part of our life from our

relationships to our mental health to

our ability to innovate you can actually

track it down and you can see it's in

every living animal there's this

habituation the fact that neurons

respond less and less to things that

don't change right and that's true for

things just like sound if you hear the

same sound again and again and again and

again you're no longer conscious of it

you're no longer responding to it so

that's just perceptual habituation but

habituation is also true for the

fundamental things in our life that we

really care about and this is why people

can have really great things in their

life and I'm sure you do right maybe

like a great relationship a good job or

a comfortable home but what's

interesting is that after a while those

things don't bring us the Daily joy that

they should right because we kind of

habituate it to it sort of like what

what is thrilling on Monday becomes

boring on Friday and the interesting

thing is that's true also for the not so

great thing around us so there might be

bad things around us like uh sexism RAC

RAC ISM cracks in our relationships or

inefficiencies at work but if they're

there all the time after a while we

don't notice them and if we don't notice

them we don't try to change them where

does this come from this this idea that

once we're exposed to something we kind

of phase out and can't see it

anymore it's because if something is in

front of us for a while and we're still

alive nothing bad happened right then

the brain doesn't really need to respond

to it anymore because the brain's trying

to conserve resources right right we

need the resources to be ready for the

new thing that is coming your way right

which can be threatening or it could

also be really great like you know food

or something that you should grab um and

that's that's basically why we stop

responding of course if someone

something is hurting you right you will

continue responding to that which is why

it's it's it's a little bit difficult to

habituate to pain that's one to pain

yeah

mhm what are some of your um your

favorite examples of everyday

habituation of everyday habituation yeah

like things that yeah yeah I told you

mine before we started recording which

was um if I go to the gym and then I

come home I can no longer smell myself

because you can I can smell myself for

maybe a couple of minutes when I'm

working out that I'm like getting hot

and sweaty but then once I'm around

myself for like 10 minutes I guess my

brain is just no longer sending the

signal from my armpits to my through my

nasal recept is to my brain yeah so

smell is is really a good one CU that

happens really really fast right so if

you put a perfume in yourself it really

smells strongly but then you put the

same perfume a day later you don't smell

it as much a week later you don't smell

it that much so those are really easy to

see around us but I think to me the more

interesting ones are habituating to

things that we um enjoy a lot and then

we enjoy less and less and less and

things that are really bad but we stop

noticing so for example there's a great

study in which uh people were asked to

think about a song that they like tell

me a song that you like or even an

artist that you like oh gosh there's one

I'm listening to at the moment house

Gospel Choir angels watching over me

okay would you prefer to hear that song

from beginning to end no interruptions

or would you prefer to hear it with

breaks with breaks yeah I don't want to

hear it with breakes okay you want to

hear it the the full thing the full

thing right and you think you would

enjoy it more correct yeah okay 99% of

people say exactly what you say right

I'm going to enjoy the song more if I

just hear I listen to it continuously

with no breaks but

counterintuitively when the study was

conducted it was shown that people

actually end up enjoying a song more if

there are Breaks by breaks you mean they

just put gaps in it gaps in it and in

fact what's more interesting is not only

did they put caps for different groups

of people they did different things

doing the gaps maybe there's quiet it

maybe there's an annoying noise and it

didn't matter what they did in the gaps

when you had gaps in the song people

enjoyed it more which is really

counteractive right and they were

willing to pay twice as much to hear

that song in concert so why is that so

if you hear a song that you really like

it's really joyful but it turns out that

over the whatever two minutes three

minutes four minutes of the song The Joy

kind of goes down you habituate a little

bit right if you have a break your the

joy is quite High and then it starts

going down there's a break and so then

you go back up right right and so you

habituate a little bit but then you go

back up so overall you're enjoying the

music more and they did the same with

massages so what do you prefer a 1 hour

massage or 20 minutes massage break 20

minutes massage break 20 minutes massage

break the 1 hour massage why again

everyone says I prefer the one hour

massage but again when they did the

study and they ask people how much did

you enjoy it the group who had breaks

ended up enjoying it more so what you're

saying is we need to put more bloody

adverts in this podcast that's exactly

what I this was exactly what I was

thinking people are loving the adverts

because you think you're you know

intellectually you think oh these ads

are annoying but I think what's

happening and you know no one's actually

done this this exact experiment but they

should I think that in fact people may

enjoy your podcast more with the ads

even if you kind even if they go through

it like that it's Gap it is possible and

that was my thought exactly comments now

like we [ __ ] don't want anymore yeah

they're so interesting and one of my

favorite examples is actually

vacation so holidays um so I did um I

was working on this project with a big

uh tourism company in the UK and they

wanted to know what makes people enjoy

holidays the most right when do they

enjoy the holiday the most and why so we

did survey and we went on these resorts

to interview people and we found two

interesting things the first was that

the peak of enjoyment was 43 hours into

the

vacation and why is that well we think

the reason is that first you get to the

resort and then you have to unpack you

know all of that and then you start

really enjoying it and then the joy goes

down and down and down over time you're

still enjoying your holiday a lot but

the peak is with in 43 hours and then

the related second uh bit of data that

we saw is that when we asked people what

was your favorite part of the vacation

people used one word more than any other

word and it was the word first so they

said the first view of the ocean the

first dip in the water first

cocktail right they enjoyed the second

time they went into the pool the third

time but they enjoyed the first the most

because firsts are kind of Novel right

and then you habituate the second time

you enjoy it a little bit less than the

third time enjo late you're still

enjoying it but not as much as the first

time so does that mean that for holidays

in I think you argue this point in the

book you do yeah about instead of doing

you know four week holidays it's much

better to do weekend breaks because if

it's 42 hours or so that's optimal

enjoyment right so you're trying to

think about how can I maximize my

enjoyment right and when it comes to

Vacation maybe one one good idea is

instead of going for a twoe vacation

during the year maybe you know have a

few long weekends vacations now of

course if you're flying somewhere far

then you might not be able to do it it's

a cost and so on but you might consider

instead of going to the farway vacation

for two weeks maybe you want to go

somewhere closer to home but have more

of them because then you get more firsts

you Al also get more afterglows so

that's when you coming back from

vacation and you're still happy because

you were just on vacation and you're

also getting more of the anticip a of

the vacation interesting which is hugely

beneficial for your wellbeing the

anticipation part before um you're

actually even there at the resort or

wherever you're going I mean this begs

the question about the other thing we

habituate to which a lot of us don't

want to admit which is our partners and

our sex lives two things I've talked a

lot on this podcast about um as it

relates to things that we kind of get

used to and then no longer can get the

same level of I don't know pleasure

happiness appreciation gratitude from um

does it apply to relationships and sex

yeah so I think it does and I think the

solution is very similar breaks and I

don't mean like a relationship break

right what I mean is have you know an

evening for yourself go on a weekend

perhaps on your own and then when you

come back everything kind of resp

sparkles is there any data to prove this

CU it's a feeling something that we all

know intuitively like and my partner

both know that when we're spending time

apart is good for our relationship every

relationship knows that it's good for

our sex life it's good for our our

appreciation of each other but is there

any data that supports this yes and I

I'll tell you what the data is which is

so obvious you think is like why do

people even do a study about this but

there's one study and it simply shows

that when people are away from their

partner their desire their sexual desire

for the partner goes up what is it about

our partner going away that makes us

want the it's related to habituation

right but it's also related to where

your attention is when something is

always in front of you you sort of stop

attending to it because it's always

there and so your brain then goes okay

what else do I need to get right but if

they're not there then your attention

can go back to them and then there is a

more basic level of how pleasure works

there's this great quote by the econ

Tyber kovski and he says that pleasure

results from incomplete and intermittent

satisfaction of desires right incomplete

yes so the idea is that you always

wanting a little bit more okay right

intimidate meaning there's breaks and

then you always and it's incomplete

because you always want a little bit

more and I think that quote is you can

apply it to almost everything right even

to food there's an another um fun

experiment where they have two groups

and one group was given mac and cheese

to eat which they really liked every day

for you know a few weeks and of course

they like the mac and cheese of the

first day they liked it in the second

day but after a while they couldn't you

know they couldn't see mac and cheese

anymore they really did not want mac and

cheese um while the other group got mac

and cheese just once a week and they

enjoyed the MC and cheese much more

right and so it's true for food it's

true for music it's true for our

relationships it's rof

fications what's that type what's that

restaurant where they the chef brings

you I don't know like 13 different

courses of food oh that's too much so

that's not good okay so here's here's

what I think about choices um you first

of all you don't want to give people no

choice at all right so if there's a

restaurant where you get no choice at

all I don't think that is overall a good

idea I mean what you could do for

example if you want if you want to have

a restaurant where there's an option

that the chef decides still make it a

choice right so you can have on the menu

Chef's Choice but I'm still you know

sitting there and deciding okay the chef

is going to choose for me but that's

still my choice why does that matter

because um it is well known that first

having a choice is really important for

people's sense of control and for for

their enjoyment and once they choose

something they like it better than if

someone else Cho for them they really

you know one thing that we really don't

like humans really don't like and

actually other animals as well is having

no agency having no choice that causes

anxiety so we do want to make sure that

people have a choice at the same time

you don't want to have too many options

because that can be overwhelming right

there's the um famous uh experiment

where people are given an option to

choose between 60 different jams and

some people are so overwhelmed they just

leave the store empty-handed so you

don't want to go to right too much

choice that could be just overwhelming

because there's you know for like too

much cognitive resources right anything

that that we do that

requires an amount of cognitive resource

that is above some kind of threshold can

feel

aversive right so having a choice where

you have to choose too many things

that's not good on the other hand not

being able to choose any

that's not good either so you want to be

somewhere in in the middle going back to

this this subject matter of

relationships what advice would you give

me based on everything you know about

habituation to make sure that my

relationship stays spicy and uh we go

the long term what things can I you know

what do I need to be aware of what what

things can I do okay so just thinking

about like habituation related things

yeah I would say two main things one is

breaks

meaning having some distance once in a

while right okay and the second is doing

new things together okay right because

if you're always doing the same thing

over and over and over which couples

sometimes do there are like a few things

that they like to do right because it's

hard because each person has their own

preferences of what they like and then

you find an overlap and that overlap is

not necessarily huge so then you just

you know do the same thing over and over

so I think as a couple it is good to

explore and I don't don't necessarily

mean like sexually but just everything

like what type of movies you're going to

watch and you know what type of

activities and that can also expand your

experiences together right on the point

of sex so I do think sex can get boring

if you don't constantly try new things

it's just it's if you plan to be with

someone for 50 years finding new things

to try is

work to be honest and I guess life is

work so it's work worth doing you know

I'm almost almost I know almost five

years into my relationship with a little

bit of a gap in between and it's a

conversation we've had a lot which is

how do we keep things fresh and new and

interesting and spicy because like any

couple or like any people you fall into

as you say like Comfort habits we go to

this restaurant because we know it and

they know us you know you go to this

place because you know the place and you

that's your favorite restaurant there or

whatever you watch this thing on TV you

follow this okay this cycle of Monday to

Monday to Sunday Monday we do this then

Saturday and Sunday we do this you know

and it can be it can the monotony can

seem to take a joy out of life right yes

and I think you want a little bit of

balance so some of this kind of routine

and things you're familiar with there's

something nice about that as well right

so it's not I'm not saying every weekend

do something completely new right but

just so you have your kind of routines

and then

you know you insert some novel

activities or something something new so

it's it's kind of a BAL a balance

between exploring new things but also

exploiting the things that you enjoy do

you think there's a because I was

thinking about it as you were speaking

about men and women if there's a

difference in their ability to habituate

and in my experience maybe that's just

because I've always been the man in the

situation um I'm less likely to seek

spontaneity I think in terms of like

coming up with new ideas for places us

to go my girlfriend she's so like let's

go to this flower thing let's go to this

then let's go to this play Let's go over

here she's very explorative so I was

just wondering if there was a variance

you'd ever seen in any research about a

man's ability to habituate versus a

woman's no I haven't so I don't

necessarily think there is and I don't

necessarily think that it is a case that

men are more explor explorative or more

um exploring but and this is not Based

on data this is just my observation I

often hear that people say I like to

explore but my partner yeah likes to do

the same or I like to just do the same

all the time but my partner likes to

explore I hear this again and again it's

true in my own relationship my my

co-author C Einstein who wrote the book

with me um he also says exactly the same

right so for him he likes to exploit and

his wife likes to explore for me it's

like I like to explore my husband likes

to exploit and I hear this again and

again and that makes me think that it is

not a

coincidence um that is perhaps the case

that people who like to explore end up

with people who like to exploit because

to do the best that we can in life we

need to do bothh so maybe it is you know

this balance interesting to individuals

because if you're left on your own and

just exploring all the

time you might not get to the optimal

balance in life MH if you're exploiting

all the time then you're unlikely to

find these new things right that will

actually be great for you you will learn

gain you pleasure and so on so um it may

not be a coincidence and I think in in a

lot of these traits almost every

psychological trait that you can think

of they are individual differences you

can go all the way from one extreme to

The Other Extreme right if we're talking

about optimism all the way to pessimism

exploration all the way to exploitation

right and everything in the and normally

it's kind of a bell curve of sorts um

and I think it's not a coincidence right

because if you think about a society a

group a team working together you do

need these variations for people to push

each other in different directions such

that as a team we get to the best that

we can we can get we talked about

learning a little bit earlier on and

about the importance of of change and

Novelty I'm someone that's just Fallen

back into the habit of reading books

again and writing about them and it's

brought a huge amount of lost joy to my

life and I and I had almost lost sight

of it through becoming so busy in my

professional life I'd lost the um Joy of

learning new things and because I do

this podcast as well and it seems to I

learn so much from speaking to the

people I speak to but just recently

getting back into reading books again

has brought this new sort of excitement

to my life and your book has is provides

a lot of evidence as to why that might

be yeah I think it is it is a case that

probably you know in recent years people

are reading less right um and we kind of

forget the joy of reading whether it is

fiction or

non-fiction I think the difference

between reading a book than watching a

video is when you read a book there's an

extra mental activity that you're doing

which is you're imagining you're

visualizing right it's also in your own

pace so you read something and maybe

that elicit triggers some kind of

Association in your mind right so you

might like stop for a little bit and

then continue so there's so much more

going on and I think because of that

when you read a book you can relate that

more to yourself and to your own life

right versus I mean watching I mean

films like that that's great as well but

that that is a difference right it's

more about you and your inner

experiences and memories coming more

alive and then it also ties to what you

already know the midlife crisis

is this a real thing yeah absolutely it

is well known that stress is the peaks

in your midlife and happiness um goes

down in your midlife suicide for example

Peaks especially for male um in midlife

definitely like something that we should

think of and notice um and we don't

really know for sure why it happens but

one thing that happens in midlife is

that you have a lot of stressors coming

your way um so we're talking about 40s

and 50s so you have you might need you

have little kids that you need to take

care of maybe you have elderly parents

that you're worried about uh

professional life has a lot of stressors

in midlife so that's really a time where

we see the midlife crisis but one thing

that we think is that perhaps this is

also a time that you're not progressing

as much right so kind of in your 20s and

so on you learn a lot you gain G skills

you get to perhaps a good

position and then it's sort of

plateauing right for a lot of people it

can kind of plateau in midlife perhaps

they have a good job right but they're

kind of stuck they're not really moving

as much they're not learning as much

less variety right things are a little

bit more routine and that could be one

reason why happiness is relatively low

in midlife

it's also hard to see like what is next

sometimes right while you're climbing up

it's you're kind of well this is my goal

but once you get there it's a little bit

disappointing to some extent even if

you've done really well right because as

we talked before one thing that is

really important for our happiness is

kind of us believing that we have

something to gain something to go

forward to now why does then happiness

go back up after midlife right so we

don't know but here is one speculation

that at at a certain point in time uh

maybe you're

retiring then actually Life Changes

again right in an odd way there can

actually be more variety and CH and

change and learning you need to learn

how to live life again with this new

context of not going to work every day

and you know and you might make

decisions all sorts of decisions of what

to do with your time which will require

you to learn

again when you get to so say 40 40 50

years old you're probably in a

relationship which you've been in for a

while there's not that there's not that

Pursuit your job your career your

profession your identity your geography

your house friendship circles are

probably all well established at that

point and your hypothesis is that the

lack of forward motion and the abundance

of routine means that you lose something

in life yeah so things are less new

right

it's kind of same same same imagine the

best day of your life you wake up in the

morning and you eat like the best

breakfast that you can think of right

choose and then you you interact with

the people that you love the most and

you go do the best activity like what

you want and you see your favorite movie

so the whole day is your favorite

favorite favorite favorite things really

great and then you wake up the same the

next day and you do the same and then

you wake up the next day and you do the

same right a weekend a few few weeks in

the best day of your life just doesn't

elicit as much joy right and also

there's nothing to learn anymore so even

if you're living your absolute best life

if it is the same again and again and

again and

again it will eventually be a little bit

even depressing I would say so that's by

definition not our best life right so so

then it is what is our best life so I

think when people think about

what my best life is what they're

thinking about is oh I want that great

house right I want that great partner I

want money or you know and then you can

get all of these things but if they

remain constant that's just not going to

be your best life and you can engineer

this I mean even if it's like midlife

and everything is set and you're in one

house and so on for example you can go

take a course learn something new right

a new fields that is not your own you

can go a new sport right there's things

that you could do go visit places that

you haven't been try to um make

connections with people that are a bit

different from your regular crowd that

you're interacting with it's a little

bit hard to do because it's going to

require effort the easiest thing to do

is just continue same same same same

same we assume that happiness will be

derived from us

um I almost don't know how to say this

like from us being on autopilot like if

we do what Society said you work a job

you get a partner you create a house you

we assume that will lead to happiness

but what you're saying is the research

shows that we actually need to keep

almost dismantling or disrupting our own

experience to to find happiness or to be

happy I guess we can't find happiness we

be happy yeah they did a whole bunch of

surveys to figure out what are the

factors that are most associated with

people's happiness and the number one

was meaning right people who could say I

have meaning in my life that was number

one number two was control people who

felt they have control over their life

um and I don't remember what number

income was but it wasn't especially high

oh I think social so social connections

was really high as well right so a lot

of these things were these psychological

things not necessarily material things

that really induced uh people's

happiness and satisfaction from their

life somewhat linked to that studies

show that after getting married people

report to being happier on average yet

about two years after their honeymoon

period happiness levels tend to be the

same as their pre-marriage levels yeah

so this is a well-known What's called

the hedonic treadmill oh yeah so the

hedonic treadmill means that we sort of

have a basine level of Happiness which

is determined a lot is genetic it might

be determined by early childhood

experiences and we can move from that

Baseline we can go up if something good

happens maybe you have a good Rel

relationship marriage uh you get a

promotion it can go down if something

bad happens even

bement but it turns out that it in most

cases you climb back to your Baseline

level of Happiness so these things they

can go up and they can down and then you

kind of adapt right um and at you end up

trying you know and this goes back to

this idea that we're trying to get all

these things we think of once I get this

promotion then I'll be really happy and

then you get the promotion and it's

great but then after a while you just go

back to your Baseline now on on one hand

this actually is not a bad thing because

imagine you get your first entry level

job and people are really happy with

their first entry level job great but

imagine I just continue being really

happy with my first entry-level job

right I won't be motivated to move

forward right so this is why habituation

is there because it's moving us forward

as an indiv ual and and as a society on

the other hand it also reduces our joy

um and it also sometimes causes us not

to see some of the bad things around us

because we habituate to that as well

another reason why habituation is

important is for your mental health

right and that's kind of related to what

we just talked about where bad things

happen and slowly slowly slowly we adapt

and we go back to Baseline we are able

to recover right it's kind of our

superpower our IM immense ability to

just bounce back for most individuals

and what's interesting is that you

actually see that people with depression

they habituate much

slower so there was a great study that

was conducted in the University of

Florida by a professor Aaron heler where

he had students um who just got exam

results and he asked them how they were

feeling and then he asked them how they

were feeling after every 45 minutes for

the whole day and what he found is when

people bad results they were feeling bad

right they're not happy and that's true

for people who never had depression

episodes in their life and people who

were experiencing depression or had

depression before so everyone was

feeling bad at the beginning those

people who did not have any history of

depression they slowly slowly slowly

started feeling better from this bad

grade those with depression also started

feeling better but much slower right so

in other words depression is related to

slow slower habituation slower recovery

from negative events in your life and

one reason we think this is is because

depression is related to going over

these bad events in your mind again and

again not letting go right you're kind

of like chewing over them again and

again and again and that is something

that is preventing you from recovering

and bouncing back from these um aversive

events if if um habituation

is causes us

to lose the joy of our current situation

then how come as you say in Chapter 2

the chapter about variety you say that

up to 40% of employees resign within the

first six months of their new job you'd

think their new job would bring them Joy

because it was different but up to 40%

of employees resign within the first six

months so new things can bring a joory

because they're different yeah however

at the same time and this kind of goes

back to the vacation example that I gave

you which was people are not the

happiest when they just get to the

resort it takes them time right it takes

them 43 hours to get to the peak Joy why

because they still need the time to

adapt right they need to unpack they

need to get used to this new routine

same thing with a new job for example so

on one hand getting a new job you're

going to learn things and that's great

and eventually it will get you Joy but

when you f when you're there for the

first first day or the first few days

there's a lot of getting used to things

around you right you need to like figure

who's who right who's on top who's in

the bottom like where is a cafeteria

what am I going to eat there's so many

different things that you need to figure

out it can be stressful it can be

overwhelming and you often want to just

like run back to your old life run back

to your new job and do a U-turn and the

problem is that often people don't

predict this they can't see ahead right

they think it's like well I'm unhappy

with my new job on my first day or my

second day or even the first week that

means that this is not a good job for me

you know perhaps it's not a good job for

you or perhaps you just need to allow it

some time to adapt so you know my

recommendation is whatever it is that

you're trying that's new can also be

something like a new relationship right

give it some time because you're going

to have to get used to the things that

are also not great you will also get

things you get used to things are great

but you have to get used to those things

that are not great and then after a

while you won't see them anymore right

so not going to affect you as much so

give a time now if you gave it time and

still you're unhappy sure yeah make a

change there's a clear message in here

for managers employees CEOs Founders

about how to keep their team motivated

and engaged and the message that I'm

hearing is the importance in creating

Variety in their work because I always

think in businesses I'm involved in if

someone's doing this same thing for like

12 months we're going to have a have to

have a conversation within the next 3

months because they will typically come

to me and say like something's not

something's not right and it's typically

that people need a bit of variety in

their work I guess because that gives it

a little kick of meaning again you know

I I think I've always hypothesized that

people need like five things to really

like their jobs number one is a sense of

Forward Motion towards a a goal so

that's progress I guess feeling like

you're go make making forward motion

number two challenge they need to be

like sufficiently challenged not too

challenged because then there's lots of

issues underchallenged lots of issues

lose motivation like in game psychology

number three is control and autonomy so

feeling like you've got control over

your life your work number four is

meaning in the work you're doing

subjective meaning Jack's reason for

doing this podcast will be entirely

different from someone else in the team

for example and then the last one is

working in like a supportive group of

people there's a lot of studies about

this that you want a situation

where you're learning something because

if you're learning nothing people are

not engaged right but if it's like so

difficult that you can't learn right

people aren't happy as well so you have

to be like in this the spot in the

middle right that's a sweet spot and

again it's different for everyone right

where it's not too easy but it's not too

difficult so you have something to learn

but you're still progressing and that's

very important there's a great study

showing that if you put people in a room

and there's absolutely nothing for them

to do except to shock themselves they

will shock themselves like little shock

I don't mean you know um this this paper

was actually in science a few years ago

so meaning that boredom can be so

aversive to people they would actually

prefer physical pain than to just not do

anything at all so that's on the one

hand and then of course on the other

hand is when you're sitting in in a you

know in a class or you're listening to

Electra and you have no idea what's it's

too much right because you haven't

gotten there maybe you'll take the steps

eventually you'll get there but but you

know you started off by saying for

employees you need to kind of change

right give them different projects and

so on and what's interesting not only

will they enjoy it more they're more

likely to get to Creative Solutions

start with the fact that what what has

been found is that people who habituate

slower are more creative um so there's

different ways to measure how fast you

habituate what they did in this study is

that they had a sound the same sound

again and again and again and they

measured Kink conductance which shows um

so it is how aroused you are when you're

aroused you sweat more okay and that is

measured by the skin conductance right

and so when there's like a sound there's

a response so if a sound is the same

sound again and again and again most

people habituate there's no longer

response you know long skin conductance

but for some people they continue

responding right because they're not

habituating and what was found is those

those people who continue responding

those were the people who already showed

creativity in their life they had a

patent under their name they had an

exhibition in an art gallery they had a

book that they wrote they had um got

prizes for Innovative work and the

question is why is that and I think the

reason is that because of habituation we

filter a lot of information right and

you know it makes sense information is

not important but if you don't habituate

you're going to have a lot of bits of

information in your mind simmering

objects sounds bits and pieces of

knowledge that are not important on

their own but they're just going to stay

in your mind they're going to simmer and

once in a while they will create

something new and that's where

Innovation comes in and really if you

think about the most Creative Solutions

that people come up with it's usually

they take something from one field

something really boring unimportant

mundane

and that bit of mundane piece of

information then solves a problem in

this other completely different field

and or there's like this part of

knowledge here that is boring and this

other part of knowledge in this other

field that also seems very mundane but

you put them together and suddenly you

create something that is really really

interesting uh and creative right I mean

often you see for example people taking

what they know from biology

which you know on its own doesn't seem

so important but then they take that and

they use it to solve a problem in a

different field technology for example

right that is like the most Creative

Solutions so how do we facilitate that

how do we facilitate dishabituation in

order to enhance creativity and the

answer is change changing your

environment and it could be simple

things there studies showing that if you

just change your environment let's say

say you're working in the office for a

few hours and you go work for in a

coffee shop for a few hours right that

change can actually also enhance

creativity um you're sitting and working

and then you're going out and walking or

going out for a run um studies show for

the first six minutes you're going to be

more creative and also vice versa so if

you are out walking out running and then

you come back and you sit in your office

for the next 6 minutes you're going to

be more creative now six minutes may

sound like that's not a lot of time but

sometimes there's just enough for you to

get the aha moment I can remember those

instances where I came up with an idea

that would then change my course of

research for a long time those ideas

that were really important so if I think

about these examples like one example

was I was in the office trying to solve

this problem and I couldn't find a

solution so I decided to go to the gym

and then so I walked to the gym and then

before while I was walking while I was

getting to the gym that's when you know

the solution came about and I remember

like calling my student and like sharing

that and that would then change years of

what we we were going to do right so

just all I did was changed my physical

activity change just my physical

surrounding and that's exactly what

these studies show um or another example

was again I was in my office and I took

a break and I was reading the New York

Times science section so not hugely

different but still different right and

then I read something about monkeys and

I do humans and that again that was ooh

that I an idea came about by taking a

break and doing something that was a

little bit different and I think every

single example of this it's always like

that it's never me trying to think of

something new me trying to find a

solution it's always doing something

else which then something unusual not

something that I do like 90% of the time

in a day and that doing those times is

when these kind of new ideas came about

you know the brain generally having

spent so much time studying it what are

the the fundamental surprises you've

come to learn about humans that you

think most people just don't understand

or agree with like the things that we

don't want to believe about ourselves

that are unfortunately

true things that are unfortunately true

I see this I read this throughout your

work things where you go humans wouldn't

say they're like that if you ask them

but clearly they are because of the

research right yeah I mean it is true

that we're not conscious of most of

these kind of systematic mistakes that

we make and the biases that we have for

example I mean maybe our belief system

is a great

example of why we believe what we

believe I think that if you'd ask people

why do you believe a certain thing they

would probably give you some kind of

rational explanation right I believe

this thing because you know here's all

the evidence and so forth but in fact

most of the times the reason we believe

believe something is that we were

brought up in an environment where that

belief was a popular one or people

around us Believe it or we've heard it

again and again you know one interesting

thing is this is a huge effect where

people are are not aware of it as long

as you hear something um repeatedly even

twice the likelihood that you believe it

goes way up versus something that you

hear once it's called the illus truth

effect you just there's so many studies

showing this you let people you you tell

people something twice they don't

remember that they've heard it twice and

they're going to believe it way more

than something that they just heard once

um the reason for this is that the brain

process information that it's heard

before less right okay so let's say I

tell you that

um a shrimp's heart is in its head right

so when you hear that that sounds really

surprising and your brain takes a lot of

resources to process this you might

think about the last time I ate a shrimp

um right or just imagine the shrimp's

heart is in his head but the second time

I'm going to tell you this a shrimp's

heart is in his head your brain's not

going to processes at much right and the

third time it's not going to process at

all now when your brain takes less

effort in processing things that causes

um a signal of

familiarity and as a result we're more

likely to believe something when

something requires less effort and less

energy to process we believe it

more so anything that you hear again and

again and again as you hear it more and

more and more it takes less energy to

process and if it takes less energy to

process our brain then concludes that is

as likely true and for good reason

because most of the time when you hear

something again and again again most of

the time it's true so if you heard

something from you know your aunt and

then you heard it from your friend and

then you heard it from your doctor why

do all the people tell you all these

things because on average it's true but

sometimes it's not going to be true

right it's going to be false beliefs

right and even even things like it takes

you less energy to process a large front

14 font bold it takes us less energy to

process it versus like small font yeah

we see that across the board in all of

our marketing companies is that if we

just make the font a little bit bigger

we get more clicks so it just a tiny bit

click yeah not only are people more

attentive they're going to believe it

more so there's studies showing that you

show people two sentences um one is in

big fonts bold and one is in small and

you ask them you know How likely is this

to be true How likely is that to be true

those sentences that are in big bald

fonts people are more likely to believe

they're true because the brain requires

less energy to process it which then

makes us conclude that it's likely to be

true and it's true for like for example

if you do it with like red color right

anything that makes it easier for for us

to process if we hear things more

clearly we're more likely to believe

that's true than if you put a little bit

of noise um people are less likely to

believe things are are true anytime that

it's hard for us to process so what that

means is if you want people to um if you

want to help them believe what you're

saying right take on your

recommendations you want to make it

easier for them to process it so you

could do that visually big fonts red so

on but the other things you can do is

you can relate it to things that they

already believe in what we call priors

right so if I I want to convince you of

something it might be a good idea for me

to think about what are you what do you

already believe

right and then try to tie that to what

you already believe because that will

require less processing or I could tell

you something twice of threee times now

of course this does it's not like I'm

going to tell you something really

really crazy right the Earth is flat

three times and you're going to believe

me right but I'm talking about these

things where like it could be true right

and so I tell you that a few times and

then eventually you you more likely to

believe it and you don't know it's

because you've heard it a few times so

if I

said salad and sugar are good for you

versus just sugar is good for you maybe

more people are more likely to believe

the first sentence because I've included

a statement that you know from prior

knowledge is true which is cabbage is

good yeah that that is a great example

that is a great example okay because our

brain goes yeah salad is good for you

and then you know by the time we get to

Sugar We're like okay that could be true

and also it makes you be more believable

and just to say you need a little bit of

sugar sugar is not only bad yeah little

bit so you talk toone about DEH

habituating Our

Lives why why and where do we need to

DEH habituate Our Lives what where do we

need to change things and introduce

novelty I'm almost wanting to come away

with a little bit of a little bit of a

checklist for my own life here I feel

like I'm I understand the part in

relationships which is take breaks from

my partner try new things with them you

said as well so go to new restaurants go

to new places do new things on the

weekend in work um quit my job I guess

that's what you're saying no absolutely

not no do not quit your job you know

change role add new responsibilities

yeah but you could it could even be

something as I mean you don't have to

completely change what you're doing but

you could at the same time try something

new and in fact you know from from you

know I'm sure you do that because you

have different things that you're doing

right and so that means you have Variety

in your day because you do your podcast

but then you also have your companies

and your companies are different right

so this is a good example but not

everyone has that right A lot of people

just have the one job but if you can

take on you know learn something new

right induce variety into your day in

that way that is great that will cause

you to start being on kind of a learning

mode right I take also from that that as

an employer it's really important that

we have all of our team members on a

personal development plan which means

making sure that they've got

intellectual Forward Motion in their

lives they're always learning something

new they're always striving for

something new and that every team member

in like my company should have something

they're currently learning about outside

of their core responsibilities right so

sometimes it's it would look like

they're going sideways yeah right so

sometimes it doesn't look like the the

path is like just progressing forward

but sometimes perhaps the plan is to go

a little bit sideways what you mean

sideways which means like it's not the

obvious thing yeah that they're going to

learn right for their role see

something's not going to become a better

editor or producer or whatever he's

going to learn music almost anything

different that you learn is probably

going to feedback yeah right yeah I

guess it's it comes right down to even

the route you cycle on the way to work

in the morning or small things right

small decisions you make hotels you stay

at the airline you choose to use is is

there any other ways that you've dehab

sit in your life Having learned about

this yes but I I want to just say

something about you said use different

airlines and so on so on one hand yes

but on the other hand if something is

not super enjoyable but you still have

to do it so for example maybe

flying maybe travel like when you're

traveling for business it can be painful

right so in those cases in fact you want

to do the same thing again and again why

because you you habituate to the

negative you see so if you think about

things that you don't like to do um you

may actually want to do it in the same

way over and over okay right because I

mean unless you think like you get on a

plane and you're super enjoy it but like

you know for me I just like want it to

be over with right so it's easier

actually to use the same airline to do

the same thing so in some parts of of

life actually you want to choose to do

the same thing and in fact in some parts

of life you want to um do these things

that you don't enjoy in one chunk you

know how we talked about the good things

you chop up MH the bad things you want

to swallow whole so if you think about

things that you don't like to do but you

really need to do like I don't know I

need to grade papers I need to do house

household chores when you ask people

like would you rather do this thing that

you need to do but you don't like would

you just get it over with um in one go

or do you want breaks in between for a

breather M people like breaks for a

breather right um if it is like I don't

know washing the floor or whatever there

is doing their taxes they want the

breakes but in fact they suffer less if

they just get it over with because then

they habituate to the

negative yeah right yeah makes sense so

for the positive you want variety and so

on and but the things that you're not

going to learn a lot from you just need

to get them over and done with just get

them over and done with and even do it

at exactly the same way that you've over

always done it is social media going

going to make me vicariously habituate

I.E through looking at other people's

lives and experiences they're having

it's moving my bar up like my my own

perception of expectations in my life up

in an unpleasant way so that when I go

to that same place that Jenny went to on

Instagram it's less enjoyable for me

because I've already kind of experienced

it through the lens of Jenny's Instagram

stories

right so this has a lot to do with what

do you what do we expect from life and

how do those expectations impact us

um so I think obviously social media is

causing us to have unrealistic

expectations we always I don't know for

most of us we feel kind of disappointed

with ourselves we go online is because

of course a lot of people go online and

they post the good things right oh I'm

on vacation I got this award and then

you go online and you're like oh all the

people all of this good things are

happening constantly and so you feel

disappointed about your own life you

have unrealistic

expectations um and it it shifts what we

call adaptation level so basically we

adapt to um our daily life and then

things that are better than our daily

life we feel good and things are worse

we feel worse but sometimes our

adaptation level can shift not based on

our reality but what we expect maybe

will happen and also what we see other

people are doing doing so let's talk

about expecting what will happen so it's

there's a study showing that when

prisoners are about to be

released they are still in prison but in

their mind they're already like thinking

about the release which is great and so

now their expectations are kind of

higher and that makes them feel worse

right so they're actually very close to

release but in fact they're feeling

really bad because their their daily

life is much worse from what they expect

their daily life to be that's kind of

like social media isn't it you're

satting your house looking out at people

partying in some hot Sunny Country

having the time of their lives you feel

like you're in prison your expectations

are being raised because you're watching

them have the time of their lives so

suddenly your house feels like you know

a prison yeah so your expectations can

be based on what you just expect for

yourself and also what other people are

doing now I'm not saying that um high

expectations are bad right because

there's two things happening at the same

time one thing is when um the outcomes

so this is related to dopamine neurons

so basically dopamine neurons in your

your brain are firing all the time right

and then when outcomes are better than

expected they fire even more burst more

right so you expect to get this amount

of salary you get a higher salary

dopamine goes up you expect the steak to

taste quite good it tastes even better

they fire more and when things are worse

than expected they start um quieting

down right so they're quieting down when

things are worse than expected and that

is highly correlated with your mood when

there's big burst of dopamine you feel

good when the dopamine is quiet you're

feeling bad but that quiet is important

because that quiet says things are not

as good as I expected them to be and it

signals to your brain I need to learn

something I need to change this right

there's two things you can change you

can change your expectations you can

lower them or you can change the reality

right and so this negative mood that is

associated with outcomes not being um as

good as you expected them can actually

lead to progress so it's a bit of a

delicate kind of balance right and so

often I mean there's this really

counterintuitive finding which is when

people don't have certain things in

their life for example in countries

where the Health Care system is quite

bad the Health Care System doesn't

affect people's daily happiness as much

as in countries where the Health Care

system is good so when the healthare

system is good you expect it to be good

so then any variation can impact your

your kind of satisfaction but if you're

living in a country where like well I

know the healthare system is bad I'm

it's not going to even affect how I'm

feeling right you have no expectations

and you're kind of that's not going to

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happiness how much do you really know

about your health for me that answer was

simple the answer was very little until

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about that okay just for you guys I

remember you had a TED Talk didn't you

which did uh 15 million views on how to

motivate yourself to change your

behavior

okay yeah what can I take from that Ted

talk to achieve my new year new me

goals okay so um I talk about a few

principles there and one

is a lot of time our goals are in the

future so I want to go to the gym

because eventually I want to lose weight

I'm not going to lose weight that very

second right I'm not going to like get

into my jeans that very day eventually I

know that if I go to the gym I will

become healthier right so it's all a lot

of times about the future or you say I

want to get a promotion so I'm going to

work really hard today so I can get

promotion in the future the problem is

that it's really hard to motivate

yourself to do something

immediate for a reward that's going to

come a time from now so what you need to

do is you need to figure out what can I

get now I'm going to the gym because I

want to be healthier and you know

thinner or whatever in the future but is

there anything that I can get at the

very moment um I've heard people tell me

that the way that they motivate

themselves to get the gym is they say

when I get to the gym and I get on the

treadmill I'm G to allow myself to watch

some trash TV or uh read like you know a

magazine that I don't always allow

myself to read so that's one thing right

think about what the immediate rewards

that you can give yourself or someone

else maybe you're helping someone else

to to achieve their goals what can we

get immediately not only in the future

for for example another person told me

that their husband um they really wanted

their husband to go to the gym and so

the husband went to the gym and they got

back and the wife um said to the husband

ooh I can feel you're like I can see

your muscles right so it was immediate

right they gave him like immediate

rewards so try to think about I call it

like um Bridge the temporal Gap because

there's an action happening today and

there's this like goal in the future but

you have to bridge the temple Gap to try

to think about okay what can I also get

now it could be an emotional response

right I mean a lot of times when we do

something like we work hard we solve a

problem we go to the gym we feel good it

could be the emotional response so maybe

one way you can do is make that Salient

right maybe like track your your

emotions track your mood and you can say

okay this is what I did today right I

went to the gym today this is how I was

feeling right and so that's also an

immediate reward I was thinking about

this idea of discipline and what creates

discipline and I was

hypothesizing if there were to be a

discipline equation what it might look

like and I kind of concluded that

there's three parts to the things and

areas in my life where I've been able to

maintain discipline and the equation

looks something like this the start of

the equation would be the why like

however much I valued that goal so it

could be going to the gym or

whatever Plus the reward that I got from

the pursuit of the goal so the perceived

reward I got from the pursuit of the

goal so that's actually like going to

the gym doing the exercise being on the

treadmill the feeling after walking home

like the you know and then minus the

cost of the pursuit of the goal so

that's like having to like leave the

house get in the Uber put my shoes on

travel for 45 minutes wa you know use

lose two hours and if you want to be

disciplined in any are of your life you

need to therefore increase the why in

whatever way you can get really really

clear on why that matters and in your

case create those packs like a social

pack a financial pack whatever to make

it really important to you do whatever

you can to make the reward of the

pursuit of the goal more enjoyable might

be going with a friend or something

going to a gym that's closer I don't

know and then do everything you can to

reduce the cost of the pursuit of the

goal so right and the problem is that

the costs are often immediate yeah right

and then we we fall into What's called

the present bias or sometimes it's

called temporal discounting which is

that often we value what's happening in

the moment more than the same thing if

it was to happen in the future right um

and that's true for both like bad things

and good things things that are just

happening now our brain is like oh I'm

going to decide what to do based on this

immediate thing and the problem is that

the costs are often immediate right to

go 100% go yeah they come first right so

you have to overcome those costs and I

think one and as you're saying one thing

you could do is to try to get those

rewards closer in timee right so if I go

to to the gym I have to like walk to the

gym I might tell myself okay I can

listen to a podcast while I'm walking so

exactly exactly while I'm running yeah

Simon synic threw a really when I was at

his house talking to him about this he

threw objection at me he was like yeah

but this morning in La I got out of bed

and went and emptied the bins at 7: a.m.

because I knew if I didn't and there

would be repercussions so I ran that

through this framework and I was like

well your y was strong because the

repercussions of you not getting out of

bed are the been overflows you probably

get fined by the local Council the

reward of the pursuit of the goal really

wasn't there and the cost fortunately

was lower than the Y so discipline

occurred right and and that's because

we're sophisticated creatures right

we're not only driven I mean those

things immediately are are strong but

we're not only driven by them we have

these frontales right we're

sophisticated creature we can value

things that are in the future so when

I'm saying and I say you know immediate

is important I'm not saying future isn't

important for us and we don't use that

we do right and we're able to do that um

another thing that people do is they act

actually put in artificial costs for not

doing the right thing like a social pack

is one where announced it to the world

world on my Instagram that I'm going to

do it yes then there's a reputational

cost if I don't right right and uh for

example you know there's there's silly

things where people say I've heard this

when uh for writers and they tell I tell

the friends you know I'm going to send

you my chapter Monday at 700 a.m. and

first of all that's that's a pack right

I mean I have to send it because I told

you not because you're even going to

read it right but if I don't then I am

you know $100 is going to come into your

account like maybe you even already put

it you know as like a future thing which

you can stop right so there's a cost you

put a cost to what will happen if you

don't do that immediate

thing just goes to show I think

fundamentally that we're just driven by

incentives you know we think it's

something else but really at the very

fundamental level everything just seems

to be about incentives in business and

work in relationships in life absolutely

I mean every decision every action

conscious or unconscious is very much

about incentives right the good and the

bad I think what's interesting to me is

that those incentives are quite variable

they can be money um they can be food

they can be like social interactions

variety they can be variety yeah so the

what the incentives are is very variable

what you know what the good that I'm

getting also the bad right what what

feels bad a lot of different things can

feel bad so interesting so if you go if

you go down to like creatures low in The

evolutionary scale I think for them

things are more basic right for them

it's just like food temperature right

things like that that are really about

survival but as we go up and up and up

the ladder and we get to humans for us

there's a lot of different things that

can be incentivizing I was saying to one

of my colleagues the other day in a

business that I'm like a an investor in

he was telling me about one of his team

members who was like just a bit had lost

the love of the her work MH and he told

me the list of reasons she had said in

the like exit interview as to why she

wasn't enjoying her work and I looked at

the list of things and intuitively it

felt

like the person didn't actually know why

they weren and drink their work anymore

and so I had a conversation with this

person who was leaving this company and

um we got the very bottom of it and at

the very heart of it was just a loss of

meaning in the job they were doing they

couldn't answer um why it mattered

anymore they thought the work they were

doing no longer mattered and when you'd

asked them they would have said a lot of

other things you know they would have

point to small little things in this and

that and the office and whatever else

and the music that's playing and the but

at the very heart of it was actually

just an absence of meaning and people

aren't I don't think very good at

understanding that they've lost meaning

or that meaning is so important or that

what it is yeah and that goes back to

the survey that I mentioned um where

they found that the number one thing

that was important for people's

happiness was meaning and what does

meaning

mean does mean um I guess is that what

you're doing is

valuable right to um yeah two so that's

a good question I think it's probably

Beyond yourself I don't know maybe it is

even something about

immortality right wanting to feel that

what I'm doing is going to changed

something Beyond Myself um and it's it's

not necessarily about generosity

although you know generosity and could

be part of it but it's more about making