I brought everything that I could find

in the supermarket that was making a

claim that it was good for me. And I

want you to take a look at it. That Tim

Spectre is definitely healthy or not.

Avoid that one. Terrible. Complete

rubbish. Not as bad as the other one,

but we're going to unravel all these

secrets. The return of the world's

biggest

gut health expert, Professor Tim

Spectre.

He's an award-winning scientist,

bestselling author,

and he's co-founder of the company Zoey,

the home kit for personalized nutrition.

Everything I'm about to throw at you has

a whole industry of people behind it.

The first one is protein supplements.

Protein is massively hyped. Most people

are having nearly twice as much protein

in their diets as they need and most of

it will be converted to sugars and fat.

Coffee. It's definitely a health food

and you'll live longer.

Mouthwash. You're more prone to

infections and actually worse smelling

breath long term.

Really?

Yes. No hard data that you should be

drinking eight glasses of water a day.

10 minutes in the sun will get you all

the vitamin D you need. And there's some

actual data showing that if you got too

much excess fat on your body, exercise

alone is a terrible way to deal with it.

You need something radical. You and many

others like you are a victim of

marketing. But we are in a fiber crisis.

We think only about one in 20 people are

getting enough fiber for good health.

Has a dramatic effect on avoiding

cancers, mental health, and your

longevity. So you brought this. Yep.

That's the magic potion. A handful of

that. You reduce your risk of death by

14 15%. Two handfuls at 30%. And it's

incredibly easy to do. So

[Music]

Tim, what is the um benefit to me if I

change the way that I'm eating and start

thinking through the lens of my gut

microbiome and start taking the advice

that you talk about in your books? What

is the benefit to both me and society in

terms of statistical like outcomes? Like

why does it matter?

It matters because we are suffering an

epidemic of common chronic diseases. So

we're getting increases in cancer, heart

disease, diabetes, obesity.

We you know uh majority of the

population are overweight or obese. That

has enormous consequences also on our

economic output. Um it costs the country

and the taxpayer nearly 60 billion

pounds a year. As a country, we don't

want someone like you to become

unhealthy and so that it's difficult for

you to work. You're not functioning

properly. The state then has to provide

for you extra health care etc. There's

that individual level, but also we don't

want you to get mental health diseases,

depression,

u anxiety, all these things that we know

are also linked to poor diet as well as

increased cancers and and other elements

of it. So, it's it's a combination of

the medical uh the mental, the social,

the economic, all these things are

related to having good nutrition. And I

think we've taken it for granted that it

doesn't really matter what we eat. It's

all about weight and these things. But

that's maybe only the small side of it.

I think there's much more to it than

that.

Someone like me, I'm, you know, 30-ish

years old and I'm I like to think that

I'm in good shape. I exercise every day.

Um, very active. So sometimes I think I

can fall into the trap of thinking

because there's no obvious sign of

disease in me that I can eat what I want

because I'm working out. And then I I

sat here with a doctor a couple of

couple of months ago and he said a

sentence to me that sounded something

like we can see disease growing in you

decades out. That really made me change

my thinking on health. Because if it is

like a seed of health or a seed of

disease that's growing in me

irrespective of my current physical

abilities in my, you know, think I'm in

good shape,

it's kind of like compounding invisibly

inside of me disease for better or for

worse. And that means that even someone

like me, I can I can stop 50-year-old

Steve's disease now at 30 by making

nudging my health in a slightly

different direction in terms of

nutrition. Is that an accurate

assessment of because there'll be people

that are listening that are so healthy,

apparently healthy on the outside

because they can run fast or because

they haven't got any problems with their

bones or back.

Yeah. Well, when I was your age, I

didn't think at all about my nutrition

really. Um, you know, although I was

trained doctor, etc. I said, I don't

want too much fat. I want this and, you

know, I'll try and get a nice looking

steak rather than the cheapest one. Um

but I I I didn't think in that way that

I wanted to look after my health in 20

years time. It's a tough concept for

people who are you know doing so much

else and still feeling good that you

know still getting out of bed fresh in

the morning energized and not really

feeling the effects of of aging. So I

think it's true but it's it's quite a

tough concept to sell to the whole

population particularly people in their

20s and 30s about the future

and that's why I think uh focusing on

things like mental health do resonate

perhaps more than saying um think about

what you're going to be like when you're

50 to most people. I've spent definitely

the last 10 years of my life believing

that in order to grow big muscles, which

has been an aim of throughout my life, I

need to have protein supplements.

What do you think about that? I still

have protein supplements in my house.

Protein powders, come home from the gym,

big scoop of protein, drink it. What do

you think of that?

Protein is massively hyped.

There are very few people who are

protein deficient in this country and

need supplements. There are a few, but I

would say it's less than 5% of the

population are not getting sufficient

protein to perform either their normal

activities or like you build muscle

because it's so inherent in our normal

food. We we evolved, you know, to be

omnivores and to get enough protein and

our ancestors didn't fall apart because

we didn't get protein shakes. And I

think the the fact that we're focusing

on protein is you're you and many others

like you are a victim of marketing that

everywhere you look at the moment

protein is the thing that sells

products. If it's got protein on the

pack, it's you know that's ringing. Oh,

I need extra protein. And protein has

this uh ring of only good about it.

There's nothing bad about protein. It's

like just going to get me big and

strong. And I don't worry about calories

or getting fat. You know, I use it or

lose it and that's fine. And it's

completely wrong.

All the evidence is that um most people

are having nearly twice as much protein

in their in their diets as they need for

normal uh protein balance. And the only

people that really need to worry are if

you're um elderly and you're not eating

very much. Okay? So young people

generally like yourself will be getting

enough food that a percentage of all

that food is going to contain protein.

There's very few foods that don't

contain protein. Uh people don't think

about it, but every time you're eating

pasta or grains, you're eating protein.

Um it doesn't have to be steak or eggs.

And but the elderly, if you're not

eating, you're gone off your food,

you're sick, you've got, you know,

you're on some medication,

uh might need some extra protein sources

or to focus on it. or if you're a strict

vegetarian or vegan in that position

where you're not eating much or you're

sick or you're elderly, then those

people do need something. Now, if you

are a bodybuilder

and again, you're you're trying to lose

weight at the same time,

then you might need some protein

supplements. But if you're eating a

normal diet, there's no evidence that

the vast majority of of people need any

extra protein. They can get it all from

normal food. And normal food, in my

opinion, is a much better way of getting

it because that's how our bodies have

evolved rather than getting it in a

drink or a supplement or a powder where

it's often mixed with other chemicals.

It's not in its natural form. We're not

sure that it's all used and the excess

protein you have isn't for free.

protein gets broken down and it either

gets eliminated in your body or it's

stored as fat um as it gets converted to

uh sugars and then to fats. So people

think of protein as only in muscle and

if it's not going to my muscle I just

pee it out. It doesn't matter. Not the

case. If you're having lots of protein

that you you can't use up in your

muscles because you already got so much

on board, you can't store it anywhere.

it uh some of it gets eliminated but

most of it will be converted to sugars

and fat.

This goes against everything they told

me

because I thought that you could have as

much protein as you like. Your body

can't store it. So I must just be like

pooping it out or something. I don't

know. Um

can't store it as protein.

Okay.

But it gets converted. It's broken down

into small pieces and that gets stored

in your body uh for the future. So, how

much protein can I process in like a

day? How how many grams of protein?

How many kilos roughly you about?

Oh, 90. Say 911 because there's people

listening.

It's all muscle though.

Um, so around roughly that amount of

protein. Um,

uh, because it goes with weight. The the

more your weight is, the more protein

you need to to repair your muscles and

and keep it going. So uh the official

amount is normally around you know 0.8

uh gram per kilogram. Okay.

Okay.

So but if we think you know we want to

be on the safe side. So most people are

95% of people that's the uh a safe level

but most people uh in this country are

having like 1.4

um grams per kilogram. So they'd be

having uh for you over a 100 grams of

protein and

basically if you don't anything extra so

you might do a little workout that might

increase it a little bit maybe 10%. So

you might be able to use uh 10% of that

if you're doing a lot of weightlifting

etc.

Um but not huge amounts. So, if you took

300

uh grams of protein, most of it is just

going to be either you you'd be getting

rid of it, excreting it in some way, or

it would be uh converted into uh sugars

and fats.

Stat I found here, the average daily

intake of protein in the UK is 76 gram

per day for adults aged 19 to 64

and 67 grams a day for adults aged 65

years and over. So that's how much on

average people are consuming with their

normal diets.

Yeah. So it's just roughly depending on

the size of people, it's just over a a

gram per kilo. And they're getting that

without protein. Most of them without

protein powders just from their normal

diets. I mean, as an example, my, you

know, my normal breakfast gives me, I

worked out, you know, over 30 grams of

protein,

um, which is sort of what you want to

kickstart the day, uh, in order to get

muscles repairing things. But if I took,

you know, an extra protein powder to

give me an extra 100 gram, that really

wouldn't have any effect at all other

than slightly increasing my weight.

What about fiber? I've got two questions

here. What is fiber in the most simple

terms? And

is it why is it important? And are we

consuming enough fiber in our natural

diets in the UK?

So unlike protein where 95% of people

are absolutely fine and not deficient in

protein

95% of people are deficient in fiber. We

think only about one in 20 people are

getting enough fiber for for good

health. So this is this is the imbalance

between the marketing. People just don't

make money on fiber like they do on

protein. So all the commerce is going to

everyone's protein deficient. You got to

have protein, protein, protein, protein.

You know who's supporting the spinach or

the you the um the fiber people? Hardly

anybody. We're massively deficient in

it. It is the bits of carbohydrates. So

carbohydrates are made up of sugars,

starches, and fibers. So fibers are the

parts of carbohydrates that are not

broken down and absorbed early on in the

system. So they go through to the deeper

parts of the intestine. They meet the

microbes and they have to be digested

much slower, much lower down your

system. And they're food for your gut

microbes. And it could be soluble ones.

They could be insoluble ones. They're

just different degrees of how hard it is

to break it down. And we used to think

of it as ruffage. It used to be called

roughage when I was a a medical student

and a junior doctor. You used to eat

this stuff and it was just to like clear

out the toxins. It was just like you

have this stuff, it scrapes your pipes

and cleans it up and that's all it was

thought to do. But now we we know it's

absolutely crucial for health. The

average in the UK is about 20 grams of

fiber. So if you just increase that by a

quarter,

not very much, five grams, that's uh uh

you know a handful of nuts or seeds or

something a day. you will increase uh or

you reduce your risk of death by 14 15%.

And if you did two handfuls of nuts 30%.

It each one it goes up. So has a

dramatic effect on your uh longevity and

it's also important for avoiding cancers

and mental health and nearly everything

that we've looked at. So, it's really

the forgotten element of our of our diet

that I think at the moment we're, you

know, in a fiber crisis. We're certainly

not in a protein crisis and yet

everyone's talking about protein. It's

really it's really a fascinating

interplay between, you know, what the

real problems are and what the marketing

and and the commerce of this whole field

is. So, we need to improve everybody's

fiber amounts. All the healthy countries

in the world are eating much more fiber

and it's also diverse fiber. It's lots

of different things. It's not just

having kale. When you came on the

podcast last time, you said something

which I found to be quite daunting,

which was this idea of trying to get 30

plants into my diet a week. You've

brought some food with you today for me

that you say can help me with this.

Jack, could you grab the food that Tim

brought with him today? So, you brought

this jar of what looks like a bunch of

nuts and seeds.

Yep. That's the magic potion.

Magic potion. Tell me more.

So, this is what I call my diversity

jar. So, um, do have a nibble, but

basically there's about 10 different

types of nut and seed in there that each

time I see some packet of mixed nuts or

I find something new in a in a shop, I

add it to that jar and I keep it full,

mix it around, and that's what I throw

on my yogurt and keir in the morning or

I will put on my salad at lunch And that

basically is a a hack that instantly

gets me 10 plants for my week. So you're

saying how hard it is to get to 30

plants. Well, just by doing that, you've

got uh you've only got 20 to go. I say

you're a third of the way just by having

a few hacks like that, which

incidentally also gives you your

protein. Okay. So rather than your

protein shakes and your whatever handful

of that um you've got you know

significant amounts of of protein but

the important thing for this is the 30

plants people forget that a plant

doesn't have to be doesn't look like

spinach or kale. It can be a nut and a

seed which are so nutrientdense and so

useful that they will keep whole

colonies of hundreds or thou thousands

of different microbes happy in your gut

munching on the different chemicals in

there and they're very high in fiber

very high in protein. I

was going to say about the fiber thing.

This is a this is a way to get the fiber

as well.

Absolutely. Yes. So they're high high

fiber and high protein and that's why

they are are so nutritious and why if

you're having this sort of stuff you

really don't need uh chemical

supplements. And so that that's a that's

just one of several hacks about how you

can add these to your foods very easily

as well as you know mentally just

thinking I want to try and find

add different things to my my meal. I

don't want to have the same meal every

single day. People get stuck going to,

you know, their local sandwich shop and

saying, "I'm only having that prawn

salad, prawn salad, prawn salad." You

know, just think every day, go something

different. And if people start thinking

differently about food, not only does it

excite the taste buds a bit more and

gets you out of your rut, but it's also

going to generate many more microbes.

So, you know, if you're going to beat

me,

you need to be getting more diversity in

there to to grow more species so that

you can uh, you know, keep them all

happy. And they they live, you know,

they live off diversity and variety just

as we humans do.

So, when I got my Zoey results back, I

one of the the PDF shows all the bugs in

my stomach. Is that what you call them,

bugs? We have a more technical

bugs or mic microbes.

Let's call them microbes then. uh just

because it makes me sound smarter. So

all the microbes in my in my belly and I

had a very narrow group of microbes. Now

if I you're telling me that if I expand

that collection of microbes, my overall

health will be better. I'll process my

food better. My mental health will be

better. Is there anything I'm I'm

missing from that list?

Your immune health would be better. So

okay,

immunity would be better. So you'd get

less food allergies. You'd get um uh

resistance to infection would be better.

So, how do I bring I know this sounds

like super stupid question to ask, but I

looked at that list and thought, okay,

so I almost thought of it like little

pets living inside me.

Um, the where do these where do I get

the new pets from? Like the new animals

from to put inside my body cuz I I was

thinking my girlfriend's got loads of

them. I'll just kiss her.

Yes. Well, well, you could kiss your

girlfriend. And there is quite a lot of

swapping between partners, by the way,

in microbes. So, you're not wrong there.

Mhm. But unless they had something to

eat, they'd die off. Okay. So, what

you're doing is um you know, we are

continually surrounded by many of these

microbes, we are swapping uh microbes

with all our close friends and family

all the time. But, uh unless you've got

the fertilizer in you, they're not going

to survive.

And the fertilizer is diversity of

foods.

Yes. And you may have and you know

you've kissed your girlfriend, you've

got some of her microbes and they're

just sitting there waiting for to be

fed, right? They might be in a very

dormant state. Many of these microbes

can go into spore formation and stay

there for years doing nothing in tiny

amounts. They only wake up when, you

know, a peanut hits them on the head or

something and says, "Oh, you know,

Steven's given me some food at last. You

know, this I can eat this. I couldn't

eat the other. I can't eat Nando. I'm

going for this." So that's the concept

that you want to give them this rich

soil so that they can flourish and you

can gain microbes from going to other

countries you know eating a variety of

foods and there are microbes that live

on a lot of fresh produce uh that you

can get you get them from dogs uh

animals um just by having a pet around

the house or going to the countryside

you can get more microbes in you but

it's It's a lot of them are actually

inside us waiting and places like our

appendix may may be sources of tiny

amounts of these microbes that are just

waiting, you know, for the right signal

to wake up. I think this is fascinating.

I looked at the back end of our YouTube

channel and it says that since this

channel started, 69.9%

of you that watch it frequently haven't

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better and better and better and better

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willing to make you if you hit the

subscribe button. Do we have a deal? I,

after our last conversation, was always

going through the supermarket trying to

figure out what's fermented and what's

not. How do I know what's fermented?

What does fermented even mean? Um, and

you brought this array of things with

you to show me how easy it is to ferment

things in your own home, I guess.

Yeah. I think people are frightened by

fermentation,

and it's important to know what it is

and what it isn't. So fermentation is a

word lots of different meanings but it's

when food is modified by microbes to

produce something that is tastes

different, tastes better and is also

healthy for you. And in a way it's a

probiotic food because what we're doing

is we're taking basic whole foods and we

are adding something like salt or sugar

and that then allows natural

uh microbes on those plants to flourish

and change the composition of that for

that food. So they make it acidic, they

get rid of all the bad bugs, and they

make it into something super healthy,

and all the microbes are growing just

like they would be in your gut if you

fed them. So it's like a a mini version

of your gut is what we're seeing here.

Um, and it's incredibly easy to do. So

that's why I brought this stuff along so

that we I can demonstrate not only how

to get extra plants into your 30 a week,

but also if those plants are fermented,

they have many more times more nutrients

in them. And the fact that those bugs

have been working on them, it means

they've been in a way predigested before

they get into your gut. And all these

studies are showing these are super good

for all aspects of your health. And if

you can have uh several portions these a

day, you'll really notice the

difference.

So for people that are just listening on

audio and can't see what have we got in

front of you here. So, we've got uh a

jar like a like a one liter jar of which

is full of uh chopped veg from uh the

bottom of my fridge. All of us would

have fridges like this where you got

odds and ends left behind. And the idea

is that you rather than throwing it

away, you can actually just chop it up

and ferment it and

stick it in a jar. And there is I can

see cabbage. I can see a radish in

there. It's just like the the waste veg

that most people would probably chuck in

the bin.

Exactly. So, a few years ago, I'd have

just thrown this in the bin. I wouldn't

have thought about doing it. So, you you

throw it out. People have heard about

sauerkraut, which is basically just um

fermented cabbage.

And you might have heard of kimchi,

which is the Korean version, which has

just got a few more things in it, like

chilies and ginger and spices.

uh and this is a sort of mixture of all

of them. But it's just to illustrate the

fact that you can ferment virtually all

plants and avoid the waste. And that's

what our ancestors did before fridges

because all you need to do is uh put

them in a jar and squash them down and

add 2% salt and a little bit of water to

cover it. And that's all you do. And I

can I can just demonstrate that now for

you if you like.

So we've got all these in here. And the

idea is you um add some add the salt.

So, we're adding 2% salt. This is really

important to measure it. So, this that's

the only thing really tricky is to make

sure that you've got uh 2% salt and that

gets poured in there. And you you would

mix it around. Uh I would normally put

it in a big bowl and do it, but uh you

you get the idea here. You you you put

the salt in, you mix it around, and you

scrunch it down really hard. So, you

know, like um really getting rid of any

space for air cuz the microbes don't

like air.

The ones that ferment they call

anorobic. They don't like oxygen and so

they grow really well when you cut out

the oxygen and they can just um live off

start eating the sugars in in the in

these plants and the salt gives them a

competitive advantage against nasty

microbes.

Okay. So that means that they can out

compete the other guys cuz it's suddenly

a different environment and that's what

we're doing. So you squash it down and

um I'm going to add a little bit of

water here. Sometimes you don't need to

add hardly any water and if you add more

than a bit just add a little bit of salt

to that water, just enough to cover it

because the microbes are naturally in

all these plants. People don't realize

that. They think, "Oh, it must be

sterile. I've got it from a nice

supermarket in a plastic wrapper." Um

it's full of microbes and that's normal.

And we know that even in garlic for

example, even when you cut it, there are

perhaps uh 10 20 different types of

micro living in that garlic. And once

they they sense the water and the salt,

they will suddenly say, "Oh, it's good

to come out. I can out compete. I can

grow and I can start munching the the

sugar." And then to pack it down, you

either use you can use some stones, some

clean stones. What I like to do is use

some leftover waste. Um, so I get some

outside cabbage leaves or something else

from a plant and just put it down in

there, squash it. And so you can see

that it's now below the water line.

Mhm.

And I close the lid

and that's basically it. And I would

leave that for a minimum of 3 days

somewhere room temperature out of the

sun. And you'll start to see bubbles

forming. And that's CO2. The microbes

are producing that. They're fermenting

it. That's it. And you've got suddenly

your own probiotic fermented food made

from your scraps rather than throwing it

out. And that's that's a great example

of what you can do um to really improve

your health for something that costs

nothing uh apart from the price of salt.

And that's one you made earlier.

Yeah, this is a nicer looking one that's

uh one I I did earlier. And I'm just

going to see. You can see a few bubbles

there. Uh it's it's just starting to to

get going. Um and uh you can open it up

uh every day or so to give it a smell

and see what's happening. Making sure

that it's packed down so that it's all

below the water line. Once you've done

this, once it's fermented after a week,

uh you can put in the fridge for months.

Oh, really? So you could put that in the

fridge fridge for months.

Yeah. Once it's fermented, the it's

become acidic

and the pH has dropped below 4.5. No

other microbes can live there. Only the

ones you want, you've selected

personally. These are your probiotic

microbes that we know are good for your

health. And the difference between this

and your probiotic capsule is that

you'll probably get 30 different

microbes here, whereas you take your

capsule, you might get two or three.

So this is why fermented foods I think

are a real answer to many of our

problems. You know, the fact that we've

got a rather western deprived

microbiome, these could really help um

people like you want to boost your gut

microbiome and just introducing these

fermented foods into your regular diet.

And this is what the Koreans do. For

example, you know, the Japanese do by

using fermented soybeans in nearly all

their foods. So many of the healthiest

populations have large amounts of

fermented food in their diets.

When you look at the Japanese and the

Koreans, do they have better gut

microbiomes than the people in the UK

and the US?

Yes, they do. And they but importantly,

they live much longer and have you much

less of our uh chronic diseases or they

delay those problems by at least 10

years. So I think we need to learn from

the the populations that are doing it

right and this is a really easy

uh thing to do and I think it's it's a

great exercise in in teaching because if

you think what's going on it's this is

mirroring what's going on inside your

gut. If you had that rich diversity of

of plants in there you can get many

microbes to um to to proliferate. And

once you start seeing the bubbles

forming and the the the amazing change

in taste and texture that you're

getting, you got to remember this is the

difference between a grape and an

amazing uh vintage red wine. It's just

the effect of those microbes in the

effect, you know, on on that grape skin

just changing over time, increasing that

complexity and producing chemicals. It

all it's basically a sort of chemistry

lesson. When I'm in the supermarket,

there are lots of things that now have

labels on them saying that they're great

for gut health or they're low sugar or

they're low fat. I brought everything

that I could find in the supermarket

that was making a claim that it was good

for me. And I want you to take a look

look at it. These are some of the most

popular things that people pick up in

the supermarket that make these claims

that they're low sugar, low fat, low

high protein, great for gut health. So,

the first one I've got here is Actimal,

which had says it's got vitamin D, B6.

It's great for immune support, zero

added sugar, 0% fat,

rich in vitamin D. That Tim Spectre is

definitely healthy

or not.

So, um, yeah, these these claims, uh,

some of these claims they're allowed to

put on the packet. There is very

restricted what they can actually say in

terms of health it can do are date back,

you know, 30 years and no longer really

valid, but they they have to do it

because they're not allowed to even

mention the word probiotic on a on a

packet, interestingly. So, they're

trying to attract you in with things

that would resonate with the consumer.

So they do these massive surveys to

saying what's going to resonate with you

Steve when you go into oh and you say oh

what's going to what's going to make me

buy this rather than one of the other

ones and so vitamin D we've been

flogging vitamin D for forever you know

10 minutes in the sun will get you all

the vitamin D you need um and it's in

most foods anyway you don't really need

it in addition in these things uh 0%

added sugar and 0% added fat mean that

it's highly processed. So, the

combination of health, what we call

health halos,

um saying it's super healthy

with uh rich in this vitamin, le no

sugar, no fat, um is very old-fashioned

science. No one believes that that zero

fat is any good for you anymore. And

there's some actual data showing that

low-fat foods actually uh make you

overeat.

Really?

Yes. What does the data say?

So when they've compi compared sort of

identical uh meals to people in lab

conditions, those eating the lowfat

foods, the um high carb but high

processed foods like this will actually

overeat substantially over the next uh

day or so. So it's actually making you

overeat uh quite significantly. So, and

there's no advantage to your body in

terms of heart health by having this

because to get zero fat and make it

taste good, it's got to have lots of

extra sugars and starches in there.

Otherwise, you you you just couldn't eat

it. Fat is really important naturally to

make you enjoy food.

And so, it takes a lot of careful

chemistry to mimic that fat. So, I would

always avoid anything that said, you

know, zero sugar, zero fat, uh, rich in

vitamins, despite the fact that this

probably has something good probiotics

in it.

So, you get in a good probiotics, um,

it's only one lactobacillus, but that's

counteracted by all this negative stuff,

all these chemicals which we know are

bad for your gut microbiome. So, that's

not uh going to be good for you or it's

not going to be good for me either.

So, I would avoid that one. Always go

for any yogurt that really has minimum

contents. Just milk and microbes. That's

all you need. Can you bring me the bin?

This is going in the bin. I'm going to

just drop that

in the bin. I did scan on the Zoey app

as well. And my relationship to it was

about 35,

which is not which is not a health food.

Which is not a health food. What about

this? This is definitely healthy. Dr.

Inspector

Activia,

deliciously good for your gut health.

Okay, so I know this one's going to be

good. Um,

what else does it say? We believe that a

happy gut is a happy you. When you love

your gut, it loves you back. It sounds

like you wrote it.

What else? What other claims does it

make? We ferment our unique blend of

five active strain strains for up to

eight hours. So every little pot is

packed with billions of live cultures.

Loving the planet to love our gut.

Activia great for the gut. Healthy.

Well, so far, you know, everything looks

everything looks good, doesn't it? Um,

but let's have a look and see what extra

things they've added to it. Um, which is

always hard to find in packets. You you

often need a microscope to see them. Um,

so for for it to be good, it just needs

microbes and milk and that makes yogurt.

You just change the temperature. That's

what you get. So here we've got um lots

of we've got lots of ingredients. We've

got flavorings. We've got concentrates.

We've got bit of carrot for some reason.

We've got lemon juice. We've got

stabilizers. Uh we've got tapioca

starch. We've got sugars. And it claims

to have strawberries, although when they

last were picked from the earth, I'm not

quite sure. So, um, it's not as bad as

the other one, but basically we're we're

looking at a a highly processed product

that has many chemicals you don't really

want in your gut because they will

counteract the good effect of the gut

microbes. Slightly better than the other

one, but I would still not eat it

myself.

Okay.

And the fact that it's processed, does

the fact that it's processed alone make

it a bad food? Or is it because the

process of processing

causes a loss in the good stuff and

addition of a lot of bad stuff? When we

say pro because this word processed

foods has become just like a blanket

term. So in my brain I go if it's

processed it has to be bad.

But is that accurate? Well, we need to

separate virtually all the food that we

eat and I eat as well is processed.

Yeah.

But um we need to separate that from

ultrarocessed. So plain yogurt, nothing

added, nothing you know changed is

processed because you're mixing a basic

ingredient milk with microbes. You're

actually creating something that's

processing. But it's when you take it to

the next stage and you would make that

same product from say milk powder

uh and then you would add various

starches and stabilizers, emulsifiers,

concentrates, artificial sweeteners,

flavorings, that same yogurt becomes

ultrarocessed.

And it's that extra step that is the

main problem.

Nothing wrong with processed food. You

know, cheese is processed. There's

nothing wrong with that. Most of the

foods we we eat are some have had salt

added or oil added or something like

that. But it's when it's chemicals that

you don't find in your kitchen being

added to to foods that have been

stripped of all their goodness. So, they

wouldn't just use cow's milk. It would

be, you know, dried extract of casein or

um you wouldn't take wheat. It would be

the uh stripped out inner part of that

wheat and then that's temperature

treated to melt it and and change its

composition. And to put these things

back together, you need all these glues

like these emulsifiers. Uh you need

stabilizers, you need um uh flavorings,

sweeteners, colorants, all these extra

things to make it look like food again.

So I think we shouldn't be calling

ultrarocessed food food. That's a

misnomer.

uh we should call them, you know, edible

food-like substances that are

industrially made. And if we start to

realize the difference between these, we

can start to make smart food choices. We

now know that many of these ingredients

there's been lots of even research since

we last talked about um first things

like aspartame has come out as which is

an artificial sweetener has been linked

to many health problems including

increased risk of cancers and uh heart

disease. We've got emulsifiers have come

out uh recently in a number of studies

to show that they affect mental health

and they also affect heart disease even

when you adjust for the whole diet and

you take just that component of the

food. So we know that ultrarocessed

foods are you probably the worst things

we're doing for our diets and then in

the UK

uh the average person is saying about

60% of all their food is ultrarocessed

without knowing about it. We're eating

four times more than uh healthy European

countries who are often poorer than us.

So it's not just a question of money.

It's just become this battle of us poor

consumers against these massive

companies with billions of pounds to

spend on marketing that have told us

this stuff is healthy because of these

fake health halos, vitamins, you know,

no sugar, no this, no fat, confusing the

consumer and all the time giving us

foods that not only make give us disease

but importantly make us overeat.

So we we pick that stuff. Doesn't matter

it's says just whether even if it's just

low fat or it's got lots of other

chemicals, both make you overeat by a

quarter. So you will be hungrier after

eating that than you would be if you had

a completely plain yogurt with none of

those extra chemicals in it. Okay,

so I've got three different drinks here.

I've got my Oasis citrus punch. Um, on

this one it says natural flavorings

and real fruit. So that must be healthy.

Real fruit. If it says real fruit on it,

you should be very suspicious.

Okay, that's the first thing to to look

at it. Uh, and natural flavors. That

really means nothing. And this is

uh natural is a great word. means

nothing uh medically, scientifically,

but it's been a a buzz word for me

getting people to buy stuff. So,

basically, this is a a mixed blend of

citrus fruits, which means the mixtures

of all kinds of different uh fruit

extracts

that's combined with sugar and

artificial sweeteners. They're again

highly processed fruits. They're not

fresh fruits. And it's got a mixture of

those. Uh, it's got citric acid. It's

got sugar, orange flavorings, uh, it's

got stabilizers, uh, polyphosphates,

glycerol esters, uh, it's got, um,

looks like wood resins, um, acidity

regulators, uh, preservatives. It's got

some potassium sorbate, potassium

benzoate. It's got the sweeteners

aspartame and uh ACE K.

Espartain is what you're just talking

about, right?

Yes, that's the one that WHO have just

put on their uh warning list. Um so yes,

it's it's packed with things that you

wouldn't expect if you just squeezed a

bit of juice uh in and thought it was

healthy. So, this is a good example of

um a totally fake ultrarocessed food

that makes it look like it's real fruit

and is going to be healthy for you and

it is just a mix of chemicals that's

just going to mess up your gut microbes

and make you feel hungrier.

Okay, but this one here, this

Philadelphia says light. So, it says

100% of the taste but 40% less fat. So,

Philadelphia Light.

Surely that's

good. Well, it's it's got cheese in it.

It's often have this. We did do some

tests on this a while ago. It does does

have microbes in it. If it's low in fat,

they've generally added something else

to increase the mouth feel. And indeed

we see here it's got stabilizers. It's

got emulsifiers. Uh all these things

that we know uh have effects on your gut

microbes, make you hungrier and can

affect your heart as well. So yeah, I I

would uh avoid that one.

What do we have to I've got a few last

things for you there. What do we have to

look out for on the packaging of these

products? Because interestingly, the one

you have in your hand, the bar there,

the snack bar, on the back of it, they

do admit that it's a little bit

processed. They actually there's a

sentence on the back of it. I'll read

read out says um I was reading it as you

said it says well um well clearly it

would be wrong for us to claim that

everything in this bar is 100% natural

and simply grows on trees obviously some

ingredients need to be cleaned dried and

roasted too and therefore to some extent

processed. It's just that we believe the

less we mess with it the better it

tastes. That's why we never add any

artificial flavors or colors or any

preservatives.

Yeah,

natural bar. I mean, ingredients,

you know, that's a good thing to say.

It's quite hard to produce some of these

snack bars without having things to

stick it together or gums. Glucose

syrup, soya protein,

crispies,

isolate, tapioca starch, salt, dates,

almonds, salt, salted caramel, muscoido,

sugar, buttermilk powder, natural

flavorings, cream powder, milk, rice

flour, carbo flour, and salt.

Yeah, it doesn't when you read it out

like that, it doesn't sound quite as

natural as the uh label suggests, does

it? because you've just got all these

ingredients that are, you know, again,

half of them you wouldn't find in your

in your kitchen. Um, you know, and it's

partly to to, you know, protein packed.

Um, you know, if it was if you just need

the nuts and the seeds, you wouldn't

have to add in all this uh other stuff

from soy and and other beans and things

which are ultrarocessed. They're just

taking that bit of it, combining it

together. So some of these are better

than others. Um but um again this is

ultrarocessed and you know the these all

these snacks interestingly are really

often the downfall in in in place like

the US and the UK where we're just

eating so many so much our our energy is

coming from these snacks which wasn't

the case 20 years ago. So on that point

of snacking,

is snacking good or bad? And what impact

does that have on the overall

nutritional um profile of an individual?

Because a lot of people snack, right?

Nearly everybody snacks.

I think that's right. Over 90% of people

snack. So it's become normal to snack in

this in this country, in the US, it is

the norm. It's not the norm in other

countries. So you see much less snacking

habits in southern Europe uh than you do

here. much less in many Asian countries

as well.

A Zoey study found that 95% of people

were snackers.

Yes.

And 25% of people are undoing the

benefits of healthy meals by unhealthy

snacking.

Yeah. So 95% of people we found in that

Zoey study are snackers and most of them

are unhealthy. So just by reaching for a

snack, unless you're really careful,

you're going to be having not only extra

calories, but unhealthy calories that's

going to undo many of the good things

you you're eating. So we found in the

Zoey survey that people would be really

focusing on their main meal, saying,

"This is a really healthy meal. I'm

having plenty of plants and veget, but

oh well, I've got to have my snack." And

so they'd be undoing all that good by

having something that would then

a couple of hours later really upset um

their metabolism and make them hungrier

and so mess up the the idea and make

them hungrier. So we in the UK and the

US it's around a quarter of our calories

come from snacks. if we were able to

even to reduce that a bit or just change

that snack to a healthy one or ideally

move that snacking time to the meal

itself. Most of these would be much less

harmful if you had them at the end of

your meal

when your body is, you know, starting to

do all this work breaking down the food

is gearing up for this high activity.

Virtually all the snacks that people

have late in the evening are bad for

you. And that's because you're getting a

sugar spike just before going to bed.

Your body's not ready for it. Your gut

microbes are not ready for it. It

doesn't give them a rest. And so you

actually end up hungrier the next day.

So we're starting to realize that it's

not just the food. And we've seen that

most of these snacks are very unhealthy,

going to make you hungrier, but the

timing of it also messes up your

circadian rhythms. So you're not

recovering. And the next day you're

going to feel hungrier than you were if

you didn't snack. So it's like

counterintuitive. You think, oh, if I

have something before I go to bed, I'm

not going to be as hungry tomorrow. And

this is what many people get into this

this common mistake. So we need to start

changing people's attitude uh in in this

snack epidemic about snacks and say, you

know, you don't need them. Um

and if you do, have healthy ones. And

you know, nuts and seeds and fruit are

perfectly healthy ones. And we showed in

our in our study which we published

recently that people who do have those

healthy snacks are really hardly any

extra risk of health problems um

compared to those that people don't

snack as long as it's not late at night.

So if you eat within that sort of normal

eating window and you you know some

people are natural snackers. I don't

know if I'm not, but I know many of my

colleagues at Zoey uh can't go two or

three hours without eating. They really

find it hard. And but just by thinking

more about that snack and saying, "Well,

I'm going to I I know I've got this

tendency. I'm going to eat something

that's healthy."

Nuts or something.

Yeah. just a handful of mixed nuts, an

apple, a pear, um something that's not

super sugary or super fat, but

importantly not ultrarocessed. Not

something that's got this health halo

that says, "Eat me. I've got high in

protein. I'm going to, you know, eat me

and you'll get bigger muscles." Uh, no.

Eat me and you'll get fatter. those

health halos then what are just so we've

summarized them low fat is a health halo

you're saying no sugar real fruit trying

to remember all the ones um

extra vitamins

vitamin labeling on on products um

natural flavorings I think it said yes

one of the products those are those the

main ones have I missed any there

I think we've covered yeah so claims

about low fat low sugar uh nothing

artificial

high protein I guess

natural right?

Uh high protein. Um some would be gut

friendly. Um generally they're warning

signs that this food is to be avoided.

Find something that doesn't need that

health claim. You never see a whole a

real food with a health claim. They

don't need it. You got an apple doesn't

need a claim, you know, contains

vitamins, contains uh fiber. Real foods

don't need health labels.

I've had a confused relationship with

bread.

I I look at bread, all bread, I think

that's bad. This is cheating on my gut

microbiome. Is that the truth? Is bread

bad?

Most bread is bad. Most supermarket

bread is ultrarocessed sugar and

contains many other chemicals you don't

really want in you. Makes you hungrier.

And the general perception of the public

is it's a healthy food. I found this

myself when I started doing my glucose

levels. Even brown breads were all over

the place. There are some breads that I

can eat in small amounts that are still

healthy. Things like rye breads. And if

it's sourdough, that also improves it.

But I think in general, we're eating far

too much bread for most people. There

might be some people who can support it.

And that's why it's good to test your

glucose responses to it. But most bread

has too much sugar, not enough fiber,

too many uh chemicals in it. And uh we

should be looking to other things for

our nutrition. Have it as a rare treat.

Have it just when you go to a restaurant

or whatever. But for most people, you

know, it's it's a real red flag for me.

The other red flag that shocked me was

my relationship with white rice because

I'd grown up eating white rice and I

thought white rice was a great thing to

have after I'd been to the gym with some

chicken. So I I used to whenever I saw

white rice I thought it was great. And

then I looked on Zoe and I had a 15 out

of 100 relationship with white rice and

I think my girlfriend had a five out of

100 relationship with white rice. So I

no longer have white rice. I've swapped

it out for I think quinoa is usually

what we have in the house now. Nearly

any grain is better than right white

rice. It's got more fiber. It's got more

protein in it. It's got more nutrients

in it. And rice is the most overrated

food I think even more so than bread

because yeah, people think it's

healthier than you know having potatoes

or pasta. They associate it with healthy

things because often sometimes the rest

of the meal is actually quite good

and you know vegetable curries or

whatever it is often quite healthy. But

the rice itself is really just sugar and

there's there's no have it as a rare

treat. But so many other grains you can

have instead. Quinoas, barley, oats, um

uh you know, or even putting in lentils

or legumes, you know, beans instead of

that rice just makes it so much

healthier.

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you get on. When you talk about your

habits being so important, I when you're

eating and what you're eating and making

sure that you carve out time to have

your meals, because I was telling you

earlier, I think before we started

recording, that I'm in a bit of a

pattern at the moment of eating my first

meal of the day at like 400 p.m. or 5:00

p.m. because if I'm recording podcast or

I'm doing something in the media or on

TV, I don't like to eat before then. Um,

what is an example of great food habits?

I want to know what what your food

habits are on a perfect day. Say you

know this was your 10 out of 10 day.

When would you eat? How many meals would

you eat? And what times would would and

wouldn't you eat?

Okay. So like you I have very busy days

where sometimes it goes out the window.

And I think we got to realize that you

got to try this sort of 8020 ideal. You

know you're trying to stick to something

80% of the time knowing that 20% it's

out of your control. Don't worry about

it. And if you do that, you can do that

sustainably for decades, right? It's the

people who are obsessed and say, "I

mustn't break it." And if you broken it

one day, okay, end of my brilliant

experiment. That's dafted. So if I'm at

home, for example, working at home, I'm

in control of things. I will not eat

anything before 11:00. I will have a

black coffee because I know um that

wakes me up and I like it and it's also

good for me. But I won't have anything

else until 11:00. I'll go down and I fix

myself my bowl of uh full fat uh yogurt

and I'd put my diversity jar sprinkled

in there and I'd see what else is in the

fridge. So I might have some berries if

they're around at the moment. Plenty of

seasonal berries. might get some from

the freezer if uh we're in the m, you

know, we're in March or something.

There's no no fresh berries. Uh or I

might just chop up an apple and put it

in there. I'm getting my protein. I'm

getting uh fat. You know, I I'm not

feeling hungry. Uh and having a dip in

energy in the middle of the day that I I

would probably have if I hadn't eat

anything.

You said coffee. I have my coffee

because I know it's good for me. Last

time we spoke, you were kind of on the

fence about coffee. You were two trains

of thought about whether it's good for

us or not. You're now saying you think

it's good for us.

Yeah. Well, I must have given the wrong

impression to you, but coffee is

definitely a health food.

Interesting.

Okay. Um there are some people who don't

tolerate it very well. They don't

tolerate the caffeine. A few percent of

people, but even if you have decaf

coffee, it's decent quality because

there's different ways of taking the the

caffeine out. All the studies are now

showing consistently that uh you will

have less heart disease and you'll live

longer if you uh drink coffee and are

having sort of between one and four cups

of coffee a day. That seems to be the

sweet spot. Bit more than that, you've

probably got some problem. You know that

coffee is actually a fermented plant.

So people don't think of it that way.

They think, "Oh, it just comes in a jar.

You know, I don't need to worry about

it." But actually, you know, it comes

off a a tree. You get this pod, this

bean. Um, you take it off, you break it

up, it then gets fermented on the floor

of usually, you know, wherever it is in

Africa or Asia, where wherever it is,

and it's humid. The microbes are working

on it, breaking it down. Then you go and

dry it and uh roast it and that ends up

being the coffee we have. So, the

microbes are playing a role in that.

It's also a source of fiber. So, three

cups of coffee gives you around five

grams of fiber, which is about a quarter

of your uh the average UK or US amount.

So, you know, it's not the main source

of fiber, but it all helps. And in the

US, it's often the main source of fiber

uh that they get. So polyphenols the

fiber um also for many people it gets

them awake and alert has that effect of

stopping tiredness. So if you if you're

careful with it you don't overdose on it

and you know it doesn't give you heart

fluctuations it's going to be actually

beneficial for you long term. So this is

a great example of a food that we've

totally changed our minds on over the

years. I initially my first research

paper I ever wrote was that um coffee

causes cancer.

Okay. So when I was a I was actually a

medical student and I was very proud of

my paper and this is great and it was

based on very poor studies done in the

1980s and it was complete rubbish. Um so

I'm very happy that to go and correct

that mistake and tell people that you

know you should much better to drink

coffee than say orange juice

and orange juice is tends to be in the

health section and coffee definitely in

the sort of recreational

uh section and they really should be

changed over. Most orange juice we have

is ultrarocessed high sugar very bad for

most people. coffee is good for the vast

majority of people.

What else have you been wrong about?

What else have you changed your mind

about over the last couple of years

because of the research that you now

have? You know, the data you now have

access to and the research that you've

done.

Uh well, I was keen to avoid fats for a

long time. Um I cut back on cheese

because I thought that's high in

saturated fats, that can't be good for

you. I would have bought low-fat

products before. Um, and so that most

doctors were indoctrinated with that and

many doctors are still in that mindset

that fat is bad and car, you know, carbs

and starch are good. um drinking lots of

water was good for you.

And I now having researched it for the

book know there's no hard data that you

should be drinking eight um glasses of

water for example a day which is what

most of the um recommended government

sites tell you. And obviously the drinks

industry is very keen to support that

because you know the big companies the

the Cokes the Pepsis have moved into the

water business and they're trying to

sell everyone plastic bottled water

which is terrible for the planet. The

idea that uh we're all deprived of

hydration and having all kinds of

problems with it is is really made up.

There's no hard evidence at all. And if

you look at um doctors who work on

marathons, they see that far more people

die or have health problems from

overhydrating

in uh the marathon race than than

dehydrating. So the human body is really

good at some things. You know, you think

about our ancestors, they kind of knew

when you were thirsty, right? It's like,

hang on, this is quite a, you know, and

the idea that, oh, we've got no idea if

we're thirsty or not. um we need to be

eating, you know, have a stopwatch to

tell us to drink every hour on the hour

is obviously nonsense when you think

about it. That's so true. My um for my

birthday just gone, someone brought me

this massive

like what's a way to describe it? Barrel

water bottle and it has like eight

liters marked on the side of it. And

they said to me when they gave it to me,

you need to drink that every day. And so

the idea was that I put it on my desk as

a reminder that I need to drink that

whole barrel before I finish work.

Oh, I mean, you just think about it.

Well, you know, we've been evolving for

millions of years, and you know, you

can't live long without water.

Um, so clearly we a pretty good

mechanism we've inherited to tell us

when we need to drink water and when we

don't. And I I I just think that's uh

again marketing uh concept. All the soft

drink the you know all this rehydration

these electrolytes all this stuff it's

it's largely nonsense and it's just you

know again like the protein marketing

idea is that uh and we're very

susceptible to it because we like a a

quick fix or and there'll be a few

people that say I feel better when I

drink lots of water. Sure, you know, but

the idea that uh we're so out of control

that, you know, someone needs to bring

us water every hour uh is madness and

that there is, you know, there isn't

this variation.

We got up to your lunch, so we did your

breakfast sounded nice. Your lunch, what

time do you typically eat lunch and what

do you typically have on a 10 out of 10

day where everything's going to plan?

I mean, it all varies and you know, I

think I don't want to give the idea I'm

always having the same lunch because I I

do try and vary it. Um, but if I'm on my

own working, I'm not with friends or

whatever. Um, it would be a fairly quick

affair and it would probably be a salad.

Um, and I would

get a lettuce or um a grated cabbage. I

would throw whatever I have in the

fridge in there and I would add some

protein to it. So, I would add some

beans. I always keep cans of beans

around. They cost nothing. They're huge

source of fiber and protein. Tip those

in. They might be lentils. They might be

um chickpeas. Might be standard mixed

beans. And um I'd put them in. If I had

some cheese, I might chop that up. might

put a bit of mozzarella in there, olive

oil, um balsamic vinegar. Um that' be

it. And if I'd had some sauerkraut or

something, I might have that on the

side, bit of ferment. And I've

increasingly recently since my I've been

doing more research on this, I might

make my salad dressing actually with

some fermented milk, some keier.

And you just mix up the oil in vinegar

and you just at the last minute add in

your uh ferment. So you're actually

getting probiotics added to that that if

I'm on my own

and a hurry that's that's probably what

yeah reason but it would vary depending

on what I was taking what fruits what

vegetables and yeah I would have fruit

afterwards.

What kind of fruit do you do you like? I

am I noticed on my Zoey app that bananas

rank incredibly low for me. I think my

ranking on a banana out of 100 is 50.

Now, I've been eating bananas like a

monkey. I've always thought bananas were

just fantastic. So, I thought unlimited

bananas were a great idea until I saw

the Zoey app and it said my score is 50

out of 100. Now, I've used up on the

bananas and I'm having much more berries

because I do really well for red berries

in particular. In fact, the order that I

the Zoey had um fruits in is raspberries

were number one, cherries were number

two, strawberries were third, then

pears, then peaches, then apples, then

kiwis, then blueberries, then grapes,

and then bananas were like 10th, 50 out

of 100.

Well, I scored him worse than you. You'd

be pleased to know. Um I used to eat

lots of bananas and it was a thing you

just put in your backpack. Comes in its

own packaging. You know, you can have it

when you want. I thought this is super

healthy because I've seen, you know,

Roger Federer um ate lots of bananas,

you know, he seemed pretty fit. Um and

that's way we associated with with a

marketing thing. Oh, lots of potassium,

you know, must be good for us really.

Lots of sugar and they're not they're

not great for us. Uh my score was about

30 or something. So, it so I I still

have them occasionally because I, you

know, enjoy them occasionally, but I

don't have them every day like I used

to. So, I now swapped them out for

pears. We have some great pears in this

country, and they're always good. Uh,

apples and again, I'll have my my

berries if if I've if I've got them. So,

um, and and, uh, kiwi fruits. I had to

also give up grapes. I used to eat lots

of grapes and I used to love them, but

get huge sugar spike with grapes, which

I know then, you know, would make me

hungrier for the rest of the day. So,

um, and I have them as a a treat. You

know, you might have some grapes once a

month. They're still fine. So, I think

we shouldn't ever say, "I'll never have

those again." It's just like, what's

your staple?

Mhm.

Uh, what do you have? Most of the time,

should you be swapping that for

something just as tasty or nice or a

mixture of things? But

get out of that rut just because someone

told you that, you know, bananas good

has potassium in it and make you play

tennis better. You know, it was it's

that kind of mindset that we we really

need to change. And um

and I guess it depends what else is on

the plate. I remember Fria, who's the

head of nutrition at Zoey, um her

telling me that

the plate itself has its overall score.

So if I had, you know, maybe something

that wasn't so good in isolation, but

with a couple of other things that are

really high ranking in terms of health

in gut microbiome, then the overall

score comes up and it's really the

average of the whole plate.

Yeah, it's exactly. I don't we the idea

is we don't want to demonize one little

thing. So, you might be obsessed with

mayonnaise, for example, you know, and I

say to you, well, you can have a small

amount of mayonnaise if it's going to

make you eat a salad.

Mhm.

And if that salad is high fiber,

nutritious, it's got plenty of good

things in it, herbs and etc, etc., etc.,

or you know, a tiny bit of ketchup or

whatever, you know, I'd still be saying,

yeah, you can try something else instead

of those, but don't get hung up about

it. And I think it's absolutely true

that you know nutrition has gone into

this idea of this this is wrong this

gives you cancer this is this is bad and

meat is a great example of that debate

you know people ask me are you you know

are you for meat are you against meat um

and I I've sort of changed I flipped on

this as the evidence has changed I'm

definitely against processed meats

ultrarocessed meats which are lowquality

stuff put together in ready meal s, etc.

You know, you'd be much better off just

having mushrooms or or beans instead of

that mixed with it, a vegetarian version

of it. But real high quality meat in

small amounts,

nothing really wrong with it as long as

you have enough space on the rest of the

plate to make up for it.

What about the carnivore diet?

Well, I keep getting probably like you,

you know, people come and say, you know,

I heard you talking about um, you know,

not eating plants is bad, but I've been

living for two years on the carnivore

diet. I feel great, you know. And I say,

fine, there might be one in 10,000

people uh, that can exist with zero

fiber and zero plants and, you know, uh,

you know, in uh, in the near the North

Pole, etc., Sure, there are people who

exist on highfat and high protein diets.

They've evolved for it. But vast

majority of people will suffer greatly

by having

a denuded gut microbiome. And

just eating meat is not what our

ancestors did anyway. Um, I've lived

with the Hadza tribe for a week and they

eat a lot of vegetables and and and

fruits and berries and nuts and seeds

and they still meat is a treat and three

months of the year they have no meat

because it's hard to catch, but they've

got all this other stuff. So, the idea

that it's natural, that's what we did is

is really wrong. And some people might

feel better briefly. You know, there's a

difference between how people respond to

uh fats particularly uh and carbs. So,

you might lose a bit of weight. A lot of

that's actually uh they've done some

studies showing people on high keto,

highfat protein diets, they lose weight

quicker,

but a lot of it is water.

Oh, okay.

So, they're sort of drying out. And in a

way, sometimes bodybuilders do that to

make them look more toned. But actually,

long term, they don't lose that. uh and

it comes back and the main problem is

their gut microbes are really crying out

for food. So you're starving your gut

microbes if you're just on a meatonly

diet. So there's no evidence that that

is healthy and lots of evidence that

lack of fiber is really bad for you. So

remember that statistic we went back to

just a five gram change in fiber. So if

these people, you know, so if the

average uh is 20 grams a day and a

carnivore diet person is on five or

less, then you we're talking, you know,

50% increases in heart disease and

reduced longevity. So, you know, people

do what they want, but the the data

absolutely doesn't support it. Another

thing that I have every day is chewing

gum. And I was in the car because it's

in the center console of of the car that

I that I'm driven around in the Dio car

we call it. And there's like seven

different types of chewing gum. Now when

I eat this chewing gum, it's there's

this explosion of sweetness in my in the

first couple of bites. And I I I was

thinking the other day as I was driving

home, I was thinking I think I'm

becoming a little bit compulsive. Like I

didn't need the chewing gum for any

other reason than I think there's this.

It's doing something in my brain. I grab

it. I put one in. I throw it in the bed.

I grab another I threw it in the bin and

I think I'm just doing it for that sugar

burst. My question is broadly about

chewing gum, but are these artificial

sweeteners that exist in the chewing

gums that I'm probably eating

worse than just normal sugar.

They're better for your teeth.

Okay.

So, you will get less tooth decay.

Yeah.

By having the artificial sweeteners, but

most of them will be causing problems to

your gut microbes.

Okay. and not your mouth microbes as

well. So, anything you mess with in your

mouth and your saliva, things like mouth

washes as well, these artificial ones,

they're all shown to reduce your natural

gut microbes and actually cause more

problems so that you're more prone to

infections and actually more prone to

get overgrowth of bad microbes giving

you bad breath. So,

you know, you have this initial hit

which, you know, often the mouthwashes

are similar in a way to that sort of

instant gratification of the chewing gum

because it feels fresh and tangy in your

in your mouth, but you're often killing

off the good guys that are protecting

your your your mouth. And the worry I

have is about this sweetness is it's

it's sensitizing you to want more sweet

foods. So it probably make you hungrier

for more carb foods later in the day.

Mhm.

So I don't think there's anything

particularly bad about chewing gum per

se. Um other than if people chew a lot

of it sugary, you know, it will give you

more uh uh dental decay.

But the artificial sweeteners are

probably worse because they're having a

negative effect on the gut micro on the

all the microbes from your mouth down to

your gut.

Mouthwash. I am a prolific mouthwash

user. Oh dear.

I know. And

they've done actual studies on this to

show that um you know, yes, customer

consumers like it, you know, so like you

probably like that feel of being fresh

and doing something and having a tang in

the mouth a bit like a you know, a tangy

chewing gum as well. Um a mint or, you

know, there's something nice in the

brain that that says this is good. But

if you do it too much, you start to

deform, you know, destroy your natural

defense mechanism and microbes in your

tongue and your saliva are there to

fight off other bugs and you're more

likely to get um overgrowth of the wrong

ones and you may actually end up having

worse smelling breath long term uh than

if you weren't using these chemicals.

The topics I'm about to throw at you are

very complicated and you're very good at

simplifying things. So everything I'm

about to throw at you typically has a

whole industry of people behind it that

have over complicated it and are selling

courses about it and different hacks and

tr tips and tricks. If you could I would

ask you just to give me a simple

solution to the things that I'm going to

throw at you. The first one is weight

loss.

There's not a simple solution. You have

to

do something that's sustainable for long

periods of time. So, forget the idea

that it's really important to lose

weight over a few weeks. You want

something that can maintain your weight

at a good level for decades. And if you

are have a problem with

really excess weight, you're uh

extremely obese, morbidly obese, um you

need something radical.

diets are not going to do it. You need

one of these new drugs um the uh GLP1s,

these injections, thempics, the

wiggoies, or you need beriatric surgery

to get you down to that level. Something

dramatic for most people.

What do you think of those new drugs,

thempics? And

I think they're amazing

really

for people that really need it.

What about for

Not for you. Not for you. Well, I've got

lots of friends that are in seemingly

great shape that are taking these new

weight loss drugs and all that stuff.

Well, they're mad.

Why?

There are lots of side effects that um

aren't worth the benefits.

Not the benefits if you have any minor

weight problems. the the benefits

outweigh the risks if you are so obese

that your chance, you know, your 50/50

chance of having a heart dise heart

heart attack in the next or a stroke in

the next five years. So people with

morbid obesity have a worse prognosis

than people with cancer. So it's, you

know, like I've got cancer. What do I

do? I'll take a drug. I'll accept that

it's got some side effects, but you

know, I want to live. And they do work

for vast majority of people. for people

who have only minor uh levels of uh

obesity just you know some love handles

or whatever

to cut out your all your appetite

signals in your brain. We don't know

what that does long term and we don't we

do know that it it has can affect your

pancreas. It can uh cause some rare

cancers. It can do other stuff to your

digestive system that we're still you

know a long way away from knowing. So

it's it's a drug for extreme obese

problems that we've created through our

ultrarocessed foods and people with

terrible diabetes etc. It is not

something for uh the general population.

So for for those people

it's firstly improving the quality of

your your diet is number one. So get

down from an average of 60%

ultrarocessed food to something less

than 20%.

find a consistent way to

that's that's the first thing to do. And

then the next thing is to change your

mindset about

things. Don't get obsessed with with

calories. Start thinking about eating

your 30 plants a week because that will

naturally give you all the fiber and uh

change your appetite signals as well.

The fitness community were quite

disgruntled last time. I probably

disgruntled again now

when you said what you said about

calories because a lot of people do rely

on the calories in calories out

system for weight loss.

Yeah. Well, obesity experts don't. So,

it may be fine in gyms to talk about

that. That's old science. We now know

that that this calorie model from a

practical point of view is completely

broken because we've been not talking

about the quality of food, the structure

of food, all these different effects,

these interindividual effects that we're

talking about. Meaning that counting

calories is for vast majority of people

impossible or meaningless. So it it's

and it's the the marketing and the

companies who are selling us these low

calorie products. This idea that it's

really simple. All you got to do is X,

Y, and Zed. You'll lose weight. That's

what we're fighting here. And they may

have influenced, you know, the gyms with

their uh special drinks and programs and