If I'm easily offended, I'm easily

manipulated. So, if you are that person

where you are reactive, reactive,

reactive,

Rule number one,

shut the [ __ ] up. Cuz if you're looking

to be respected, you need to manage

yourself. But, there are times that

people are going to cross you and

disrespect you.

How do you deal with it?

So, there was a guide post that's taught

to the intelligence communities, and it

really, really helps when you're dealing

with people. And so, one of the ways you

deal with that kind of behavior is

Evelyn Farkas, a former Secret Service

agent turned human behavior expert. From

protecting presidents to interrogating

the world's most dangerous men.

She now teaches people how to develop

mental strength and persuasive

communication skills.

How did they train you as a Secret

Service agent to have that strong mental

foundation that you have?

There's a lot of things. So, first, one

of the biggest things that holds people

back is the idea that I'm special.

You're not that special. For example, I

was one of the first responders at 9/11.

I watched thousands of people die. And

one of the things that got me through it

was understanding I wasn't alone in it.

And when you learn that, you can get

through anything. When you tell yourself

nobody knows what I'm going through,

nobody can help you, cuz it's just you

going through it. Now, the next thing,

what's most important is this tool that

we don't pay attention to, our body. And

there's this study where they started

recording people walking. Then, they

played it to convicted felons, and they

said to them, "Who would you pick as

prey?" They all picked the same people.

They were

So, there are simple things you can do

with your hand, your voice, how you sit,

and I will tell you everything. But,

also, the other thing that's actually

interesting, which you didn't ask, but I

will volunteer this information, are the

strategies to tell if somebody's being

truthful or not. And it's That's lie

detection 101.

This has always blown my mind a little

bit. 53% of you that listen to this show

regularly haven't yet subscribed to this

show. So, could I ask you for a favor

before we start? If you like this show

and you like what we do here, and you

want to support us, the free, simple way

that you can do just that is by hitting

the subscribe button. And my commitment

to you is if you do that, then I'll do

everything in my power, me and my team,

to make sure that this show is better

for you every single week. We'll listen

to your feedback. We'll find the guests

that you want me to speak to. And we'll

continue to do what we do. Thank you so

much.

Evy Poumpouras,

when you think about the books that

you've written,

the content you produce, and all that

you're fundamentally doing for people,

in your own words, how do you summarize

or define that? What is it that you

think you're doing for people with the

content, the books you've written, etc.?

It's a great question, and I don't know

if I have a clear answer. I think always

I think about

how am I serving other people?

I always go back to that. I remember

even when I wrote my book Becoming

Bulletproof, actually my book was

supposed to launch right at the height

of COVID. I mean, it's when the world

was shutting down, and

I remember I had a PR person, and my

agent, and the publishers, everyone's

like, "Hey,

you know, this COVID thing is happening.

All the media tour blitz went away.

Why don't we postpone the launch of the

book?"

And nobody was advising me to launch the

book. Nobody. Everyone's like, "Drop

Don't do it. Don't do it." And I

remember I was like, "All right, I need

to kind of tune everybody out." And I I

paused, and I I thought to myself,

"Why did I write this book? I wrote this

book to help people. Okay, so if the

goal is to help people make them more

resilient,

help them live less fearlessly, the

world right now is in a state of fear.

So, if I follow that principle,

then right now I should launch the

book."

And I remember against everybody's

advisement,

I launched it.

And when you get DMs from people in

private messages, what is it the essence

of what they're coming to you for?

So, I was surprised with my book where

people began writing in, "I'm dealing

with this problem.

Your book helped me find a way out."

Or I'm dealing with this. Can you give

me guidance on how to deal with it?

What is the essence of what they're

struggling with?

It's always themselves.

It's not the It's not the world around

you. I get it

to some extent, but it's almost always

we're the problem.

We either sabotage ourselves, we get in

the way, we make decisions, or we think,

"I didn't do anything." Everything's

cause and effect. Anytime you say, do,

act, or don't act, it has a consequence

or an effect to it. And I think

sometimes we're so blasé about it. In

the Western world, the science shows

that we actually downplay our faults.

When we make a mistake, it's not that

big of a deal. We downplay our stuff,

and we actually lift up our positive

attributes.

It's okay,

but to a point, because when you

downplay things, and you downplay your

involvement, you downplay your choices,

you downplay what role you play

in your life,

then you can't you really are

essentially powerless, and you're

you're blaming the world. And I'm not

saying that other people can't harm you.

They will. They just will. I think if

people made peace with the fact that

there bad actors out there, some I know,

some I don't know, and in pursuit of

their self-interest, people are going to

make choices that hurt me. Period, bar

none, the end.

If you can live with that and understand

that, you will be okay.

Because you just have more awareness. In

fact, in the when I did polygraphs, the

interview room, after I interviewed so

many people, and typically I would

interview suspects,

um people that we suspected committing a

crime. So,

Lie detector tests.

Lie detector tests.

But I was a lie detector.

Not the machine. A lot of people think

you hook that thing up, "Oh, ping,

they're lying." No.

Like you sit there, you assess people,

you read people. What the polygraph does

is it tells you when you ask a series of

questions to this person. I hook Steven

up, I ask him a series of several

questions. I look to see what Steven's

autonomic nervous system is doing.

Heartbeat. Right? Does that change?

Your electrodermal activity, how much

you sweat.

Your breathing, the way you breathe. So,

that's why you have the blood pressure

cuff, you have the electrodermal plates,

which actually look at sweating. You

won't it's imperceptible to you, but the

plates will pick up sweating at the

sweating activity, the change in

breathing. So, if I'm asking you a

series of questions, I'm looking at how

your body deviates during those

questions. Uh you even have sensors cuz

sometimes people try to beat the

polygraph. And so, there's sensor pads

that we have to see if they're doing

certain movements or not. I personally

don't think you can beat it, but again,

the test itself means nothing. You can't

take it to court, you can't say, "Judge,

they failed their polygraph." That's not

what it's there for. It's there to get

more information.

And look, who are you? If you're lying,

who are you really in judgment of?

Yourself. That's why your body's

reacting.

Technically, you talked about how

victims stay victims.

And

this whole idea of becoming a

bulletproof person, because regardless

of what we do in our lives, bad things

are going to happen. We're going to

encounter narcissists and people that

are looking to take advantage of us.

There's a certain mental fortitude that

you exude.

You you exude a certain type of

mental resilience and strength.

What is the founda- You know, and I

think that's really critical, because

if you have that strong

internal foundation, then all ev-

everything else we're probably going to

talk about today becomes much easier and

possible. But without that like strong

foundation, when the wind blows, the

house falls over.

So, if we think about step one in

building that strong

mental fortitude foundation that you

have,

where does one begin? And especially if

we're beginning from a very, very bad

place. We're beginning from a place of

victimhood. Bad things have happened.

We're not the most confident person.

It starts with who's around you.

That's where it starts. If you have

people around you,

anybody can break victimhood. Like

anybody can. You can. So, I want to put

that out there. Just because you're

locked in a place doesn't mean you have

to stay in there.

You can. But usually you're if you're

locked in somewhere, it's because the

system you have around you

that you also helped create and

perpetuate to some degree. We're not

completely innocent. We play a role.

The system that is built around you

keeps you.

Think of it this way. It keeps you in

jail.

So, you have to look at your environment

and say, "What about my environment is

keeping me here?"

Usually it's a person

or people.

Hopefully it's one and you're not

dealing with multiple. Now,

it can be family.

And that's where

you know, some with when you deal with

children and you deal with certain, you

know, crimes and abuse.

I I I You know, I always feel like the

one population of people that truly have

an

Like I don't want to say excuse, but you

it's really not their fault, our kids.

Because they're just so vulnerable and

like they rely on you for their their

livelihood. They need somebody to feed

them, clothe them, take care of them, or

they can't survive.

However,

if as you age, right? As you mature,

it's looking at your environment, who's

around me and who is keeping me here.

Who it And you know what becomes hard?

It becomes hard because you'll have a

Let's say a I don't

I'm going to use this term bad actor in

your life. That bad actor can be mom,

dad, sibling, brother. It can be

anybody. You can love that bad actor.

But the choices and the things that that

person does impacts you. It makes you

more vulnerable. Even if you when you

look at Even if you just look at crime

um

they did They've done a lot of different

studies.

And what they found is

even let's say if I don't commit crime,

but I'm around other people who commit

crime, I am more likely to be shot than

any other population of people. I could

not be involved in any nefarious

activity at all.

I could be clean, but simply because of

who I associate with

that makes me more vulnerable

to being uh to becoming a victim. So,

that's what where you start. Who's

around you? Now, other really important

things

whoever you pick for your companion, if

you have one

it's huge. That companion's either going

to raise you up or they're going to sink

your ship down.

And is that in the real world, best

friends, husbands, wives?

If we're talking I would say first

intimate partner.

Whatever that is to you. Husband, wife,

boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever that is,

companion. That's number one because

that's the person Here's the difference

between a like a partner and a a friend.

Your friend goes home to their home. You

go to your home. A companion or partner,

you probably live with them. That means

you are so overly exposed to that person

and you need to make damn well sure that

that person is not contaminating your

life. You can still love them, but you

can step back and look at there's a

problem here that this person's stuff is

contaminating my life.

And it's a hard thing to do for folks

because this is why

you're with someone it's like, "Okay,

I'm with Evie, but you know, Evie is

this and Evie is that." And so, you

start to blend my identity with my

behavior. And then over the time, too,

you normalize the things I do if I'm a

bad actor. Well, Evie you didn't mean

it, she's always hot-headed, you know,

she's this, but she did all these nice

things for me here. And then what we do

is we miss stuff. That's why it's easier

for you to look at somebody else's

relationship and be like, "Hey, problem

here, problem here, problem here."

Because you are not tainted

by the emotional

aspect of

being tied to that person. You're able

to look at them objectively. This is why

by and on it's easy to give other people

advice. I can see the red flags and the

issues in this person. When you're in

it, you can't. It's hard. So,

I would also venture to say and

people may not like this. If you're with

someone and there are people around you

that you know legitimately care and love

you and they're telling you, "Hey,

not the best thing for you."

I would say please listen. Because they

are seeing something that you might not

be seeing.

Do you think people just tend to know?

Like in their gut they tend to know, but

they justify the person's behavior and

they almost

kind of gaslight themselves

to some degree. They say, "Well, maybe

not. Maybe that's fine. Maybe they are a

friend. Maybe they they're just doing

that for my best interest." Whereas

really that bad actor is acting in their

interests and kind of gaslighting you

and then you're gaslighting yourself.

I think it's

One thing is you don't you don't go from

zero to 100 overnight. When you're in a

relationship or you're with around

people who are like that, it in the

beginning you don't see it, right?

Everyone's got their best behavior.

But over time you'll start to see little

like sneak peeks, little previews.

And it's those previews you want to pay

attention to.

We like to give people the benefit of

the doubt. We listen to the excuses that

they give us. And you know, there's this

ancient Greek saying that says, "Don't

listen to your opponent. Look at them.

It will tell you everything."

And when I say, "Look at them." look at

what people do.

I need you to drum out what they're

telling you. I need you to drum out

their I am sorry's because they probably

are.

They've hurt you and they are probably

genuinely sorry.

That's not the point.

The point is

when do you want to learn your lesson?

In the beginning

or at the end?

And at the end sometimes it's very,

very, very hard. Now, I have a community

and I started after I did the book and

when people started writing in, I said,

you know, let me do this community. I'll

call it Beyond Bipolar Proof and whoever

signs up

and

you know, 2 years in it's I have a 800

members and we

a lot of people come in with different

scenarios and they'll come in with

and it's almost always

the scenario they come in with, if

they're something like this, it's

somebody that they're tied to

that's just sinking them, sinking them.

So, and sometimes they're the sinker.

And they think it's the other person.

So, sometimes you're the bad actor and

you don't even realize it. So, you need

to figure out two things.

Am I the one doing things that's not

just hurting myself but other people but

I've justified it to myself

in pursuit of whatever self-interest I

have or am I tied to someone who's

pulling me down? I'm going to tell you

something, Steven. I sat across people

who did a lot of different things. Some

serious crimes, some not so serious.

Every single person sold it to themself

why they did what they did.

We're sellers.

I can justify anything to myself if I

want to.

They were turning themselves into, I

guess, victims of situations like this.

I do that? Well, you know,

good people make bad choices. Good

people make mistakes. The problem is

sometimes the consequences of those

mistakes

they last.

But you can't vouch for anybody

cuz you don't know who people are behind

closed doors. You don't. And two,

anybody is capable of anything at any

given moment in time if given the

opportunity.

If you understand that, you will not be

surprised

or shocked by anything or anyone.

It's not that it's a morbid view of

people. It's understanding people are

malleable, they're susceptible, some

more than others. Some

may have a either stronger integrity or

more I don't even think it's integrity.

It's just a stronger hold on themselves

to say yes, I won't do this. No, I won't

do this.

Um and then some people are a bit more

malleable. Like it's easier to get to

them. It's either easier to manipulate

them. It's easier to mold them to do

other things. It's easier to get them to

sway in a direction.

But if you understand that, then you

under you understand human behavior.

There's so many things of interest that

I remember if we go back to the top of

your point around your environment and

people having a huge impact on your

life. I remember reading a study by a

guy called Michael Houseman and another

study done done at Harvard University

where they showed that even if at work

you sit next to someone who is toxic and

does like bad practice at work, your

chance of doing bad practice yourself

radically increases. And in some cases

that's by 25% and in other environments

that's up to 100%. Your your probability

of then getting a disciplinary against

you just because you sat next to that

person radically increases. And this is

I think reinforces the case that your

environment is has such a powerful and

profound impact on you for better or for

worse. And I think the for better part

is also worth pausing on.

Because if you're sitting with and

you're around people that are lifting

you and elevating you and making you

believe that the world is malleable and

you can do anything, as I've experienced

in my own life at times,

it's crazy that that almost like rewires

the neurons in your brain to some

degree.

How do you pick people?

Like how do you differentiate

on your own

who's good and who's not for you?

Do you You

This is really interesting question.

Vibes.

And everything else in my life, I'll

tell you data science or this or here's

my framework, but there's some things in

life which I think your intuition and

your vibes, if you've developed the

skill of tuning in enough, is the best

indicator. And if you think if you look

back through my career, at 18 dropping

out of university, even at 16 not going

to school,

20

leaving a business that was going really

well, and then at 27 quitting a business

that was all over the world and about to

do this major second IPO, all this

stuff.

In all of those moments, the most

important thing wasn't my prefrontal

cortex, it wasn't logic or facts or

figures or the money, it was purely this

feeling inside me

that I no longer wanted to do this thing

because it didn't feel good anymore.

And in the moment you look insane, but

when you zoom out on a person's life who

is driven by that voice inside, like

really driven by it, you go, "Oh my god,

what a life that they have. Amazing.

Look at Look at the girlfriend they have

and the place they live and the stuff

they have and the job they have. They're

so lucky."

But I actually think it starts with that

like courage to tune in to that voice

inside. So that's my answer, it's just

pure vibes. People for me, if I just

don't feel good, don't want to go.

And then

careers I've had as CEO, where I go, "I

don't like doing this anymore. That's

That's me done."

And there's another part which is on the

other end of that is uncertainty.

Because

in all those situations, there was

really no plan B. There was no good plan

B.

That's so interesting. So, when you talk

about vibes, it's your intuition. It's

your instinct. And bar none. And it's

when

when I'm around people, like anybody

around, they give off something.

And what we don't do is we don't listen

to what we feel. You can still do

business or talk to someone, but when

you feel that, and I do too, I feel my

way,

even honestly, even whose podcast I'm

going to do.

I'm like, "I don't know if I like this

vibe." Or I don't know if I like this I

just feel it.

Mhm.

I feel like who do I want to be around

and even something like whose podcast do

I want to be on?

Because it's I'm bringing myself into a

space, right?

Mhm.

That person's space it's like it's all

it's all interconnected. So it's like

I'm choosing what spaces to go into. And

if you're right if it You don't have to

articulate it to yourself and that's

where we go wrong often because it's

like somebody comes in they say hi to

you and you immediately you're like I

just I don't like this.

But they didn't say anything to you.

They didn't do anything to you. You

can't articulate why and you know what

we do we dismiss it.

We dismiss it. Oh, it's me. Oh, I

shouldn't this No. It's You know what?

It's you're you've got two brains,

right? This one

and the gut. That's why they call it the

the your gut instincts. Listen to it

always and I think going back to people

who are steady you're talking about what

makes you steady.

I think a big part of what helps make

you steady is trusting in yourself.

You have to trust in yourself. Like

believe in yourself and when I say that

I mean trust that what you're feeling

is is is true. Like listen to it and not

let other people talk you out of things

or

being able to say I feel this way. I

don't know why

but I'm going to trust it.

And almost if not all the time you look

back and it's like I knew better.

I felt this.

I kind of sensed this. I didn't listen

to myself. And if you're wrong, so

you're wrong and that goes back to

uncertainty. People are afraid to be

wrong.

Why?

Because of what other people might say

about me, because how I will look

to the world

and

you know

from there from that conclusion you then

jump to and then they will reject me and

then I'll be alone and then I'll be

lonely me I'll die.

That's kind of like the logical the

downward step. I always find that

interesting. I had this conversation

with my girlfriend yesterday. Uh which

is it's interesting how one belief is

actually connected to like a string of

downstream beliefs that then go to he

doesn't love me.

And this is such a random tangent, but

me and my girlfriend were like

scheduling our calendar for the future

that we're going to be apart for a

little while. So, um she wanted to like

schedule the dates and I was like really

busy with something. And so, I wasn't

like paying as much attention to the

scheduling conversation. And she got a

little bit upset. And I find it so

interesting cuz the fact that I was half

paying attention to the scheduling

conversation actually told her that I'm

not interested in her, which means I

don't love her. And and so, afterwards I

turned to her and said, "Can you explain

to me like how I made you feel in that

situation?" And we I went "Why? Why?"

Every time she answered, "Why? Why?" And

we got right down there.

You don't love me.

And it all started with this little

thing at the top. And I think the same

here where if I

do something and it goes wrong,

there's like a downstream consequence

with the influence of conscious that

leads them to think

then I'm going to be exiled from the

tribe.

Do you know what I mean?

That's like at the root of it.

That's why I think fear, you know, when

we you talk so much about fear and

becoming fearless.

Living fearlessly cuz I don't think you

can be fearless.

Okay, living fearlessly. What's the

distinction?

Fearlessly means

I see things despite being afraid I'm

going to try. I'm going to do my best to

like

live in it. Right? And embrace it to

some degree. Whatever you're afraid of,

if it's something you want to do,

follow it.

And then figure out a way to to do it.

But it's okay to be afraid and uncertain

during the process. I don't know. When

I'm uncertain too, I'm thinking, "All

right, I can figure this out."

You don't fail until you stop.

I I look at it that way. Like even if

you're failing incrementally, overall

you won't fail until you're just like,

"All right, I'm done."

And as long as you're done cuz you want

to be done,

that's cool. But you don't want to be

done because

you keep failing or you're confused or

you're you're you're leaving because

somebody other people are telling you

shouldn't be doing it.

It's just because you decided

I don't want to be on this path anymore.

I think it's it always has to come back

to you.

I think I've always been in the school

of thought cuz and I love my family,

but they were always telling me do this

and specially because my parents were

immigrant, everything was job security.

Get a good job. Get a good job. 9 to 5,

get a good job. Don't try to do anything

else. You know, cuz they struggled so

much. And so when I tried to do things

outside of that element, they were

afraid, they were confused, they thought

I was nuts.

Even when I started in the NYPD, they

were not they were not happy at all.

They're like, what is this? Girls don't

do these types of jobs. At at even in my

community,

uh they they you know, I was laughed at.

You know, people kind of were like, oh

look at Yianni, who's my dad's name.

Look at Yianni's daughter. Look at look

how silly she's she is. You know, so

this is kind of like those moments where

you

going back to you just have to do what

you feel.

Because afterward, you're going to be

pissed off as hell

because you listened to other people.

And on that point of gut instinct, which

you mentioned a second ago, is there a

way, do you think, to train and develop

your gut instinct? Cuz you strike me as

someone that has a pretty astute gut

instinct that you trust, but

some people don't. And what ends up

happening is they just end up living in

regret that they didn't listen to their

gut instinct. And they you know, like

they only find out after the fact, after

they've been mistreated. So, I'm

wondering if there's a way to like

cultivate a better relationship with

one's intuition and gut instinct.

Yeah, stop asking everybody what they

think.

When I have a really big decision to

make,

like really big,

I don't I don't tally people.

In fact, the bigger it is, the bigger

the consequences or the bigger the the

pain or the trauma, whatever it is, I go

in.

Because they're going to confuse me.

That's what you do. You stop asking

people.

And if you're going to ask somebody,

let's say it's a health decision. You're

going to go to a doctor or you're going

to go to someone who has specific

knowledge about a decision you are

trying to make. You're not going to go

to mom. You're not going to go to dad.

You're not going to go to your brother.

You're not going to go to people who

don't have that, who although they love

you, their opinions are going to send

you like a ping pong ball. That's how

you become unsteady.

And you can start small.

You can start small. And when I say

start small, I start making decisions

without running them by anybody.

What to eat, where to go, where to

vacation. Just You can start small. It's

just allow yourself to be the decision

maker. Allow yourself to be in the

driver's seat. But what we do is

we invite people in the car. We're like,

"Hey, yeah, you can drive my car. No

problem." They get in the driver's seat.

We put him in the driver's seat. Then

we're in the passenger's seat or we

might even get kicked to the backseat.

And then we're all pissed off like, "Why

you driving like that? Why are you going

that way? That's not really where I want

to go." Then drive the car.

And stop inviting everybody in to drive

it for you and then be pissed off when

they don't take it the direction you

want to go. If you're going to be pissed

off, always be pissed off at yourself.

Because it's like, I chose. I chose

wrong, but I chose.

That is how you build confidence. And

you know, going back to law enforcement,

cuz I teach it, one of the predominant

traits that people in law enforcement

have

is um

they are they have high confidence

because of one reason.

They are they make decisions.

They're good decision makers because

when you're out on the street and you're

dealing with somebody or situation,

there's nobody to look over to and say,

"Hey, how should I handle this?"

You have to make a choice and you have

to go.

Making decisions is going to increase

your confidence and your ability in

yourself, even if they're the wrong

decisions. That's not the point.

Be a decision maker in your life. That

is going to move you forward. That is

going to increase your belief in

yourself and your trust in yourself. And

you're going to get comfortable, too.

Huh, I read that wrong. You know what I

learned here? I should have read it this

way. And so, this is when you bring in

the vibes and a little bit of tactical

strategy, because you're less emotional.

That's another

That's another hindrance. When you are

emotional,

you are a bad decision maker.

When you are in a space of emotion, make

no decision. Avoid Don't text. Don't

call. Don't I always say, just remove

yourself and go in. Go quiet. When you

can go quiet and be in that stillness of

you, it will come to you.

Over time. And you know what's another

great thing? And when you look at

resilient people, they don't have all

the answers

and they don't need to have all the

answers.

I don't have all the answers, but I

don't need them to be okay.

And this is where you embrace that

uncertainty. You don't have to have all

the answers. And that by itself is

powerful. Like, you don't need to figure

it out. You don't need to know what to

do right away.

Leave it.

Sit in it.

Be in it.

Then when it's time, you move through.

You're going to end up getting a lot of

unsolicited advice, though, you know?

This is We all do. We get When we're

making trying to make those big life

decisions, we'll have someone who We

didn't even ask them, but people will be

chipping in telling you what to think of

yourself. And then there's an element

almost, I guess, of being able to

develop stronger boundaries in your life

so that you can keep the outside world

outside.

Okay. So, then how about you stop

telling everybody your business?

Why do they need to know what you're

thinking about doing here or there?

Why?

Because when you open your mouth to

share things, you're going to get

advice. So, this goes back to you.

Do I open my mouth or do I stay quiet?

Cuz if I open my mouth and I start

talking, people are going to start

sharing.

And so, when people like, "Oh, they

don't respect my boundaries." You're the

one who offered it.

If you want to create boundaries, you

start with them. I don't share. Or like

if I'm like for example, I'm working on

a project or a deal, nobody knows until

my deal is done.

Why?

I don't know how it's going to go. I

don't want other people's opinions. I'll

have the opinions of whoever I'm dealing

with specifically in a deal, if it's a

project, right? I'm going to talk to

them, but I don't want other people

confusing me.

People confuse you. Good intentions, but

when you've got too many voices in your

head,

that's why you can't trust yourself cuz

you've got all these other voices, you

can't hear your own.

So, I know if I share something with

someone,

they're going to share their thoughts.

And maybe I don't want them.

I stay I I will tell you I usually stay

quiet

until I'm ready to reveal something.

Also, I'll stay quiet

until

it's either done,

like it's happened because so many times

you'll do something and it falls through

and it you're like you don't want to

have to explain it to other people. It's

like, why do I need to put myself in

that situation where I'm always talking?

I think talking talking talking talking,

although

I think communication is good, but

sometimes it's over sharing

and over putting our stuff out there.

How are you going to have boundaries

when you yourself violate those

boundaries? Like you just make yourself

like open borders, everybody come in.

If you're a bit more methodical with who

you share what with and why, I think

that that's okay.

But when you're like literally like

tallying everybody,

even if it's like what job to do. Like

for example, there's a

woman in the the community I have and

she's trying to figure out what career

to do. And she was kind of like, "My mom

says this, my dad says this." Grown

woman.

And and and it was coming from a genuine

I like this, but I don't like that. And

she was ping-ponging everywhere. She's

like, "Evie, what's

You know, can can you can you share

something with me?" I was like, "Stop."

I was like, "Stop talking to everybody.

Why are you tallying everybody to give

you advice? I was like, "I want you to

think about how insane what you're doing

is." You're going to another human being

to ask them what job, what career you

should do. A job that you're going to

wake up every morning to get out of bed

to go do day after day after day. And

you're tallying and pulling other people

who are not going to be doing that.

You're going to be doing that on what

you should do. Do you see a little bit

of the ridiculousness

of how you are asking somebody else

You're the one who has to get up every

morning and go do it.

If you say that to her,

and you ask her to justify why she's

doing that,

she might say, "Well, I'm just not sure.

I just wanted to hear other people's

opinions. I just don't know."

You can.

She can. You can do that. But if the

question is, "How do I learn to trust

myself?"

You trust yourself more by listening to

yourself more

and asking other people less.

That that that is how you get there.

Clearly, she doesn't trust herself

there.

No. And then maybe just the circle

around you is also too, you know, and I

don't know if you've been able to do

this over the years slowly. I've also

accumulated people around me

over It takes time

where there are trusted people where I

can go to for specific things if I need

to because I like the way they move

through life.

Uh

I I think that they they handle

themselves well. Maybe they do well in

business. They're thoughtful. I like

their character. And so over time you

can also I don't want to say accumulate,

but you can kind of start to pull folks

like that in. Takes time because people

are going to come into your life in

in different moments. And when you find

those precious gems

keep them a a bit close.

And then you can start to accumulate a

a circle and it's not people you go to

every day. It's just people that you can

pick up the phone to hey Steven it's

Evie.

Can I run something by you?

Sure Evie, no problem. What do you want

to run by me?

You can create those too. And at least

for me, I've been able over time slowly

cuz it's not going to happen overnight.

And then sometimes people come into that

space and sometimes you say mhm

I'm going to push you a little further

out. It's not working out anymore.

That woman in that example

what does she ultimately need to do? Cuz

I can imagine in her world she's

not certain about any path.

So she's got 20% certainty about going

in this direction, 30% certainty about

going in that direction apparently, and

maybe 40% about going in that direction,

and then the rest is just a little bit

of confusion and procrastination and

fear. What does she actually have to do?

She just has to make a choice.

And do it.

Pick one and do it.

There's no there's no perfect choice,

Evie.

But there isn't. There's no there's no

there's no way to know how it's going to

pan out.

There's no way to know. Just choose.

Choose something.

Choose something.

And even if it's wrong, you you know,

find peace in like I chose. It was

wrong, but you know what? I'm not stuck

here. That's the other thing like you

know, you're you can change your

decisions. Just because you choose

something, it doesn't mean you're stuck

there. We have the ability to get out.

You do. You can find ways to get out and

say, "I made a wrong choice."

It's okay.

You also have to be okay with it.

The interesting thing within our

personal lives that I think causes such

procrastination versus business is in

business, especially if you're in a

startup, if you don't make a choice, or

even like I imagine in the Secret

Service, like if you don't make a

choice, there is an immediate

consequence. Whereas in your life, you

can kind of meander for a year, 3 years,

5 years, and just sit and procrastinate.

Whereas like in a Secret Service

situation, when

Trump is being shot at,

meandering for 5 years as a Secret

Service agent, I imagine isn't possible.

So, that is something what will help

with that is

it's something called it's called

instrumental. It's called sense making.

It's understanding a person's

motivational mindset. An instrumental

person in certain jobs can yield more

instrumental people. This is where

I am doing something where I am task

oriented. This just happened, so I have

to respond this way. I'm going to do

that. I'm going to do this. Like I'm

looking at the overall, what is my next

step, then my next step, then my next

step. When you are instrumental, you are

non-emotional.

I'm not in the emotion of it. So,

although like if you bring up

a protectee getting shot, right?

Although it can seem emotional, yes it

is, but in that moment, at least through

training, it's shots being fired,

jump in front,

cover, shield, evacuate. You run through

those things. That's being instrumental.

Right?

Which is having like a a framework for

what to do next.

You're you're being tasked.

You're task oriented. I'm going to do

this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to

do this. You have a business decision to

make. Let's say something bad's

happening in the business. Okay, how do

I stop this hemorrhaging? I'm going to

do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going

to do this.

That's instrumental.

On the flip side of that is something

called identity. When I am identity, I

am Oh my god, I can't believe this is

happening. This is horrible. I don't

know what to do.

I'm confused. I'm really upset about

this. I can't believe I'm finding myself

here. Now I'm in that purgatory space of

not doing anything. I'm also emotional.

So, I can't think clearly.

And I'm not able to make moves.

So, how did they train you as a Secret

Service agent to be have that

instrumental mindset?

You do.

Action. Action. Everything's action.

Make a choice. Make a choice. Make a

choice. Move. Go. Go. Go. Do you know

what's interesting?

Everything was about movement. Don't be

still.

Even when you're getting shot at,

don't be still. They actually teach you

to run in zigzags.

It's actually really hard to shoot

someone.

If they're not perfectly still, I mean,

we would shoot paper targets. You miss.

You're stressed out. You're emotion.

You're looking at this guy shooting,

that person shooting. Am I shooting like

[ __ ] You know, cuz everyone's looking

at each other's scores. And you know, if

you don't shoot well, they're going to

be like, well, I don't want to take you

out on the next raid with me. Right? So,

you you're you've got that adrenaline

rush. It's a hard thing to do. Um but

they teach you like, hey, if you're

getting shot at, don't sit there like a

dummy. Move. Run. And while you're

running, run like zigzag.

Throw people off. Move. And I And I've

taken that premise of always being

kinesis. Kinesis is a Greek move.

Kinesis, move. Move. Always move.

Create momentum, no matter how stuck you

feel.

And I've I followed this actually in my

own just in my own life.

Just move. Don't sit still. I'm not

saying don't grieve. Don't be sad. Don't

feel.

It's okay.

But don't put yourself in a place where

you're completely stagnant.

Cuz you That's where you get stuck. And

you don't move. And you get comfortable.

And you become afraid. If you can just

create movement. I'm going to create a

little bit of movement. I'm going to

make a decision here. And another one,

another one. If you can just stay in

kinesis,

movement, you'll be able to move through

whatever it is you're going through.

I remember I interviewed Jocko Willink,

and he said pretty much a very similar

thing to me. He said in

the SAS or the the Navy SEALs, when

you're lost, you're not going to get any

new information if you just stay where

you are. So, you have to just move, even

if you don't know which direction.

Movement generates information, which

then can inform a better decision. And

you're kind of saying the same thing

there, which is if you're stuck, you

need to just get into kinesis, make a

decision, start moving, and then

you'll learn at least something.

You'll learn something, even if it means

reaching out to someone. It's just do

something that's helping you create some

type of progress.

When when you don't move, when we don't

have kinesis,

like this is where you get stuck in that

emotional depravity of like, I feel

horrible, this is happening. Like if you

can find ways to move out of your

problem, as bad as it feels,

don't bathe in it.

Like don't take a bath in it.

Feel it,

but like to a point. And you know what

else, too? You also don't have to figure

it out.

You don't have to figure out why did

this happen, or why did this person do

it. Sometimes there's nothing to figure

out. Sometimes it just is. Sometimes

there's brilliance

and freedom in just letting go and

saying, this happened, I don't know why

it happened, and I don't need to know

why. But, I can figure out how I need to

move forward. Kinesis, how am I going to

move out of this? Where do I go to next?

There's not Sometimes the more you sit

and you analyze the stuff, the more pain

you put yourself through. You're

re-thinking, you're re-telling, you're

re-living.

And especially if you're re-living

things that somebody else did to you,

like the pain and you know, you ever

have those moments where you start to

re-live, I should have done this, I

should have said this. Do you know what

actually activates the same part of the

brain that's activated when you do

cocaine.

So, it becomes addictive.

Yeah, makes you high. Think about that.

As even you though it's negative

feelings, you're like, "Yeah, you're

having this whole thing happen." And

it's like, I always look at I want you

know, I always look at is what I'm doing

leading me

to a to the path I want to go to. If

it's not, then I try to relinquish. I'm

like, "Listen,

it's okay to feel bad, but you will feel

less bad if you can keep that momentum

going."

Being stuck in in that place of

victimhood or fear or procrastination,

do you think that victimhood is

addictive?

I think it becomes a habit.

I don't think most people want to be

there.

If you ask anybody, nobody's going to

say, "Yeah, I love it."

But what happens is it becomes a habit.

And it's a pattern of behavior and a

pattern and a way of thinking that you

become used to.

What's the reward in that habit cycle

then?

I don't know if there's a reward and I

don't know if people think about it.

They just get stuck.

And they repeat the same thing because

they're afraid and and uncertain

of if they change it, what will happen.

You know, you'll see this in um

in relationships where

you know, and it's not just domestic

violence, but but you'll see it in these

really imbalanced relationships where

you will see one person who's very

dominant and one person

the dominant person that'll be somebody

who's very high power, in control,

setting the agenda, but not in a good

way. And then you'll see another person

who's very low power,

weak, submissive, avoidant. The reason

why that relationship works is one is

here, so the other has to be here.

They both can't be high power cuz

they'll clash. And so, that's why you

when you see a lot of these imbalanced

relationships or severely imbalanced

when it's domestic violence, and it can

be man toward woman, woman toward man,

or same sex,

you will see that

it's one person who's up here

high control and then the other person

goes submissive, avoidant. This person

down here is just trying to keep the

peace. I don't want conflict. I don't

want to upset them. I don't want to set

them off. But what you do

is you go deeper and deeper and deeper.

And the more you try to keep the peace,

the more you're submissive and avoidant

and uncertain,

what does the other person do? The

higher up they go.

Because you just help create this

imbalance, this further spread of power

in the relationship. They become louder,

stronger, dogmatic, demanding, rigid.

And then but that happens over time. And

then you find yourself in this space

where like, how did I end up here and

this person's here?

And then that's one of those examples of

where another person keeps you literally

suppressed. So how are you going to

trust yourself and your voice

and make good decisions if you have

such a an individual around you? And

that's another thing that keeps the a

person pushed down and suppressed.

As a

woman Secret Service agent

when you first went into service

I imagine there was

a sort of institutional

sexism. Just thinking about that era,

that time, where people would look at

you and think, well, that you know, as a

woman, there wasn't as many women in the

Secret Service. So

maybe she's someone that I can

push down. Maybe she's someone who I can

make the odd comment to. Maybe I could

create power power dynamic where I'm

above her. Did that ever happen? And if

it did happen, how did you deal with it?

So that's the like it's the truth is

that stuff does happen, right? And it it

could happen. I remember

Barbara Pierce Bush went to Tanzania.

I'm the assistant detail leader.

Which means I was like the head person

and then my boss from headquarters came,

but he wasn't there yet. And we were

having a briefing.

And you're protecting the Bush family.

I was protecting I was the uh assistant

detail leader for Barbara Pierce Bush.

So George Bush Jr.'s daughter, one of

the twins. It's Jenna and Barbara. I had

Barbara. So she went there to do like

philanthropic work, aid, and we were

going to some really like not safe

areas, right? A lot of vulnerabilities,

a lot of concerns. So I set up the

briefing. I'm the person in charge, and

and agents are coming from different

parts of the country to help supplement

some some agents I've never met. So

remember one guy walks in

and he's like, "Oh, hey, hi." So this is

in the hotel room where we're having the

briefing, and no one's there yet. It's

just him and I. "Hi, you know, how are

you?" "Okay." He's like, "Hey, you know,

the

the intern staff room is down the hall

if you want to go, you know, find it. I

can show you."

So when he saw me, he made an assumption

I was staff.

Intern, you know, I was part of the

the entourage, but not an actual agent.

And so I'm like, "Actually, no, I'm I'm

I'm the

the assistant detail leader here.

You know, thank you for joining. What

office are you from?"

So now, could I be pissed off? Sure. Did

he make an assumption based on what he

saw? Sure. Those are moments where like

I don't care.

Really?

No.

0%?

No. Who looked like a big dummy

afterward? He did, not me.

It doesn't become annoying, but this is

like where you got to be like this is

where you have to pick your battles. You

can't fight everybody. Oh my god,

Stephen, imagine how exhausted you'd be

if you fought you fought every buffoon

you came your way.

Some I mean, some people literally have

designed their life to fight buffoons.

Right. And I'm busy.

I have things to do.

Think about how much time and energy

they take and waste from you, and that's

talk about a life of being stagnant and

doing nothing because you're too busy

fighting everybody. Choose and fight

strategically. So if it's something I

need to fight, fight. I'll give you

another example.

After September 11th,

the the US Secret Service field office

was in the World Trade Center 7. So,

when the towers collapsed, we lost our

whole office. So, immediately the Secret

Service New York office,

they were trying to find a new home. So,

they found office space in Brooklyn.

And, you know, obviously, in a place

like that, like the office space needs

to be designed a specific way for like

what we're doing. Again, nondescript,

nobody needs to know we're there, but

you're designing it to look and feel a

certain way to get things done.

I'm an agent now.

I get called into the SAC's office,

which is the head boss, and he says,

"I need you to design this office for

me.

Work with headquarters, get us nice

photos, make this look like our new

home.

Um,

you know, where we have a lot of

briefings here. I'm going to put you in

charge

of this. Can you do this?"

Okay, yes, sir. There's 250 agents in

the office.

I get pulled for interior design duty.

HGTV, here we go. So, I said, "All

right, no problem." So, I did. I'm like,

"I'm going to do it. I'm going to own

it." And, I remember some of the women

were like, "Aren't you" I'm like, "No

worries."

I was like, "I'm going to do the best

damn job I can." So, I did. Took me

months.

I made a nice office. I was done with

it.

Fast forward.

That same boss puts out an open bid. New

polygraph position. There's only two

polygraph examiners in the New York

office, 30 throughout the whole US

Secret Service. A spot comes open, which

is rare.

"Everybody put your name in whoever

wants it." Everybody puts their name in.

People senior to me put their name in.

And then, one of the senior polygraph

guys was like, "Why don't you put your

name in?" I'm like, "Dude, no way. No

one's going to confess to me. They're

going to see me, they're going to

high-five each other. I'm never putting

my name in." He's like, "Put your name

in. You don't know." I wait till like

the last half hour before they call it a

bid closes, and I threw my name in. I'm

like, it's not going to happen. Guess

what? Week later I get a phone call.

Come to my office. Same boss sits me

down.

He's like, I had X amount of people put

in, maybe 30 or so people. He's like, I

picked you.

And he said, do you know why?

I said, no, sir. He's like, I gave you

that assignment to design the office and

fix it. And at no point did you [ __ ] or

complain or say anything to me. And in

fact, you did a great job. Thank you.

This is your assignment. Put in.

I need to understand here, something,

which is on one hand, I've got to be

protecting my boundaries, right? Don't

let people [ __ ] with me.

On the other hand,

don't make someone's prejudice my

problem and don't [ __ ]

and complain.

Are these

mutually exclu- are these like two

separate ideas or is it like context

dependent? Because you know, if if I'm

protecting my boundaries, my boss calls

me and tells me that I'm going to be

doing the interior design job,

potentially because I'm a woman,

is not protecting my boundaries in that

situation going, [ __ ] you,

and calling him out?

I could have.

I could have, but I assure you I would

not have gotten that position. I also

knew somebody has to do it. So, he

happened to pick me.

Maybe he likes my sense of style.

Maybe not. Maybe because of

the way I look. Maybe because I'm a

woman. I don't know. You know what's

funny? He didn't know this. I actually

studied fine art in college.

Hm.

So,

so I wasn't I wasn't that at fault and

and I also looked at, you know what too?

I also looked at the opportunity because

now I got to work with people in

headquarters that I never would have

gotten exposed to.

And like all the historic archive stuff.

So, there was a part of it I was like,

oh, this is kind of cool. Now, could I

have argued it? I could have.

But then, I guess you choose. I chose

not to.

Long term, it worked out for me. There's

also times where

I don't know, Steven, like you can't

care so hard. People are going to slight

you.

And like you choose how much you're

going to care about how much they

slighted you.

And I have noticed that the more I care,

the more of a detriment it is to me. And

the less I care,

the better I perform overall. All I'm

saying is just

choose strategically. Don't choose just

cuz you're pissed.

Cuz if you're doing it cuz you're

pissed,

now you're being ruled by emotion. And

anytime you make choices by emotion,

you're going to make bad choices, bar

none the end.

For a lot of people, the

action they take following a situation

like that is so quick and almost like so

automatic

It's emotion.

Yeah, then they just

and then they get and they might like

relax later and go, "Fucking hell, why

did I say that? I've ruined my life."

That's why I said it. That's why you're

easily manipulated. If you are the

person, and please know that I was that

person.

If if you are that person where you are

just reactive, reactive, reactive,

you're going to sink your ship

completely. It means you're not thinking

through things. It means you are just

you have no self-regulation. I

self-regulate.

Don't don't get me wrong. There's times

where I'm like, "I'm going to burn this

bridge down all the way and I don't

care. I'm good with it so long as I am

choosing clear-headedly, I'm going to

burn this bridge down."

But I'm choosing to do it.

I'm not doing it reactively.

I'm not doing it because I've lost

control. I'm doing it cuz I made that

choice. I'm going to burn this bridge

and this relationship and I'm 100% okay

with it. Do it.

But make sure you're doing it.

Not the monkey inside your brain.

Exactly.

How do I train the monkey inside my

brain over time? Cuz you said you didn't

you used to be less regulated, right?

You used to make more emotional

decisions. And over time you've come to

be able to make

those very rational

like

prefrontal cortex

decisions.

Okay.

And vibes.

I shut up I started to shut up.

I just started to be quiet. When I'm

pissed, I go quiet.

I don't say anything.

Like it when you that I think that's the

biggest thing. I learned to be quiet. I

just learned to shut my mouth.

Not to reveal your upcoming book, but I

know that one of the 100 um principles

in that book is called

100 rules of engagement. Shut the [ __ ]

up. Rule number one.

And the reason why is not to be vulgar.

It's because

it helped me so much.

Because

the more you talk,

just when you talk in general, the more

you talk, the more you reveal, the more

people know, the more you solicit, the

more people share with you, the more you

get confused, the more indecisive you

are, the more the more the more the

more.

And when I learned to stop,

self-regulate,

not to shoot my mouth off because I was

offended,

you can only get offended, first of all,

if you allow yourself to get offended.

There are times that people are going to

cross you and disrespect you. Yes? Yes.

But like

how often can you be offended? And also

there's times like who cares?

Like I don't have to have everybody's

respect.

That's another exhausting thing.

I have that you need to respect me and

you need to disrespect me. He

disrespected me and I'm Greek. It's a

big thing. Like ah.

But that that's going to wear you out.

Like and you don't need it. There were

times where it maybe I worked with

people who I could tell I was not

wanted. I remember once

NYPD and I start off in the NYPD. NYPD

Queens Narcotics Unit. Sorry, guys. This

is true story.

And um

I was sent to partner up with Queens

Narcotics to take down this guy who was

doing child porn

and counterfeit money

in addition to drugs.

So, I get sent to the task force. This

is a hardcore task force within the

NYPD. I show up with agents.

I'm the lead agent in charge.

And I show up and they were not happy to

see me.

Not at all. And I remember walking in

I'm I don't know how it is now, I'm sure

it's not, but you know, women's

calendars

centerfolds all over the place. I walked

in Personally, I didn't care, but I was

just like

this is going to be a problem.

Not me, them. Them for me.

And um

I could tell that they didn't want me

there. They started leaving information

out of briefings. They would ignore me

when we were at during the search

warrants. Like really tactical things

that they were doing that were wrong.

And this was a ring of people that we

were trying to take down. So, the first

time and then plus my team seeing this.

So, I don't say anything. My team

doesn't say anything. My team's all

guys. And thankfully, I had like really

respectful agents with me. But these

guys are seeing it. They're seeing how

they're treating me by proxy them. No

one's saying anything. They're

disregarding us. Um and the reason why

we were asked to be there is because

we're experts in counterfeit. We're also

experts in child porn.

So, we do the arrest. It's done. But

then there's a subsequent arrest that

happens.

And we show up for that. Same thing.

Like literally ignoring you like you're

not even there. We do the arrest. We do

the prints. And at one point they even

leave the precinct. And we're like,

where did they go? They just completely

ditched us.

And I I remember going back to my group

leader.

Uh Carl.

And uh I go to Carl. I said, "Hey,

listen.

If these guys call again cuz there were

more arrests." I was like, "Don't send

me out there." And he's like, "Why?" I'm

like, "It's very clear they don't want

me there."

I said, "I don't want to fight, but I'm

not also going to sit and stand my

ground and put myself somewhere I don't

want to be. I don't like the way it

feels. I don't want to be there. It's

bad for the team. Send a dude.

Send a dude. Don't send me back out

there. I won't go.

Is that letting them win though?

No.

Cuz they'll be at the office with their

posters up of these women and they'll be

like, "Yeah, we got rid of her."

Like yourselves out.

I This is also where you choose what

circles you want to be in. It was a

circle I chose I didn't want to be in.

You can't change a mindset and culture

of people.

Like if That's also Also, think about

it. It wasn't one person I was up

against. It was the whole group. So, now

I'm going to come in and bulldoze my way

into this what group mentality. I think

this is where I really learned to

navigate.

And you have to be good at it. Like

where to fight, where to walk away from.

And I was like, "I don't need to be

here. I don't need to prove anything to

anybody. I've earned it." And like half

of you yahoos couldn't become a special

agent if you you know, applied. Like

it's a hard thing to become to go from a

cop to do that. So, with that, I was

like, "No, I don't need to." And it's

actually the only time I ever did that.

Cuz it was that egregious.

It was egregious and I thought it was a

danger to me and also danger to the

other special agents. Like I felt like I

had a responsibility and I'm like, "If

I'm working with the Queens Narcotics

Narcotics Task Force and they're not

communicating, they were withholding

information,

someone's going to get shot." I was

like, "And that's on them, not on me.

But I'm also not going to partake."

A lot of people will listen to this and

they'll relate to the feeling of being

subtly disrespected

on a recurring basis by individuals in

their life, whether it's their romantic

partner, whether it's a colleague at

work, whether it's someone else that

they interact with. And so many people

I've I've seen this in some of the

questions I get sent in,

are keen to understand how to deal with

someone that is disrespecting you.

You know, cuz

I I guess there's a train of thought

that would say, when they disrespect

you, you kind of argue and engage and

try and shout them down and try and win.

But if you are being subtly disrespected

in your own life by someone,

what do you recommend that they do?

Okay. Who is it? So, if it's my partner,

so I'm married, I have a husband.

He's another special agent.

If he does something where I feel

disrespected because I care so deeply

about that relationship and the

integrity of that relationship,

him,

I might argue it. Not to argue, but

because I want to keep a good healthy

relationship. Now, don't get me wrong,

being in a relationship you also let a

lot of things go, right? So, it's it's

again, what am I willing to let go?

What's I don't want to say silly, but

what's like really not important? And

where, you know, what's like, "Hey, I

want to address this with you and this

is why." So, for me that takes

hierarchy. Who your partner is, I when

we talked about that before,

bar none, that is really such a crux of

how well you're going to do in life.

They're either going to raise you up or

they're going to sink you down.

So, that matters.

And I will do my best not to be

belligerent when I'm having that

discussion, right?

Now, everybody else falls to the side

for me.

Cuz because I understand

the value of being with a person and

you're with that person 90% of the time

and that's an investment in that

relationship. But aside from everybody

else, mostly everybody else, I can let

it go. I always look at, are you worth

my time and energy? I'm busy.

So, do I need to stop

and do I need to address you?

Okay, so let's play out a scenario.

Okay.

And in this scenario, I'm going to make

us peers, so we work together, right? We

work together in a call center. This is

actually something that happened to me

when I was in the early sort of phase of

my career where I was working in call

centers. So, I was like answering phones

and doing that kind of thing and selling

things on the phone, etc. And I remember

being sat next to someone who was like

subtly disrespecting me all the time.

And at this point in my life, I wasn't

in any position of authority to do

anything about it. I've actually It's

funny cuz that one instance has

completely shape shaped my leadership

perspective and my

real deep belief that I have a

responsibility as the founder of the

company or CEO

to go in search of and clamp out all

disrespect in an organization that is

happening beneath me because

you're often powerless at work to do

anything about it. And I felt that I

couldn't stop this lady that sat next to

me disrespecting me because

I wasn't her boss. So, now that I have

the responsibility, it's a big thing for

me that we don't employ [ __ ] and

[ __ ] And there's actually a recent

example where someone was in our

business for a total of

a couple of hours. And actually my

previous company, there was a guy that

walked in during his initiation. He went

like this

and walked off. Day one of his job, he

put both middle fingers up after his

like initiation. We initiation, we

basically ask them questions, ask them

what they're into, who they are. Put

both middle fingers up and walked off.

It was the last time anyone saw him in

the building. And it because it was a it

was a sign of a character issue that

would would lead to a further

disrespect.

So, if I'm sat next to you at work,

Effie, we're colleagues.

And you will you come in in the morning

and I go, "Oh,

first time you've been on time." And

then you you do some work and I go, "Not

bad considering your standard."

And then you're in a meeting and you're

talking and I just interrupt you.

And you submit a piece of work and I and

I look at it and I turn my nose up.

And you hear me talking [ __ ] about you

behind your back when people aren't

there, me criticizing your work and how

you are and your delivery.

How are you going to deal with that

situation?

So, I would deal with a specific

situation, not the whole thing. I would

pick a moment where I have tangible

facts and I would say, "Can I speak to

you for a moment?"

so we're in a group. We're all on the

calls on in my call center.

I'm not going to do in front of other

people.

Okay, fine. So, this is what happens. I

This isn't actually what happened in my

Do you do this? I

No, no, no, no, no. In fact, me, I

didn't do anything. I just wanted the

money.

I was trying to just survive. Couldn't

feed myself. So, I'm not going to open

my mouth. But, I'm we're in a call

center and I've disrespected you for a

while now. And then I turn to you and I

go and you you've just come off a call

and I go,

"You know what? You should have You

could have done that better. You didn't

close that properly. Every now and you

know, uh next time you you do a call and

you get stuck like that, just speak to

me and I'll take the call off you. Just

tell them that your colleague will

handle it." And I carry on with my day.

What are you going to do in that moment?

I'm going to do anything. It also

depends because you said I didn't do

anything. I was trying to feed myself.

And that plays a role like, where are

you?

Mhm. I think part of it is also is I was

very young and I didn't have the tools

to address that situation. The problem

is the situation made coming to work a

misery.

Yeah.

And this version of myself, irrespective

of my financial situation, would have

and even today, because even today,

okay, I have money, I have security, but

I'm still playing at a certain level

where there's disrespect potential.

Actually, I have a really good example

that I could never share of as someone

that I work with who's extremely

successful. We work on a particular

project together

and I found out that this was happening

and they were basically threatened by me

because

for a variety of reasons, this this is

what I was told by an an intermediary

and I chose a moment

when I heard that they just disrespected

me within a short period of time

and I walked in in front of a in front

of a group of people

and I said to them,

I said, "I I heard what you did out

there in the hallway when I wasn't there

and um in the future, if you want to say

something to me, I'd really appreciate

it you said it to my face instead of

behind my back."

And it's and it's crazy what happened.

It's crazy what happened. This really

big, tough, powerful individual

turned into a toddler in front of my

eyes. Oh, what? No, I didn't say and I

left the room.

And then it never happened again.

But I I think that that's okay, too.

But you also came to that place like