this has never happened before today we

have three experts in their field with

three different opinions debating the

subject of porn this is the first time

I've gone on pornh Hub at

work in one corner we have Dr Reena

Malik the sex scientist helping millions

of couples enhance their sex lives in

the other Corner we have Dr Kate the

psychiatrist specializing in helping

people with addictions to pornography

and more who is up against Erica lust

who runs a large pornographic production

company no one can sit on the fence here

is porn a benefit to people and Society

definitely and especially for people who

haven't really had that right to

pleasure to understand their sexuality

but I think what we're clearly seeing is

a trend of it being damaging and let me

just share with you all what I'm afraid

of it is doing way more to the brain

than we ever realized so the first thing

that we know is that bye there's data to

suggest that couples that use

pornography together have better sexual

en counters and women who use

pornography have better sexual

satisfaction rates and remember that

women's sexuality has been so much about

pleasing others and you see it with the

orgasm Gap from a devil's advocate would

say that there is significant number of

women interested in looking a certain

way that they're often seeing on

pornography that's harmful I'm a bit

suspicious about this because honestly

that statement is from 10 years ago but

there's also unrealistic expectations

about performance that creat shame and

small penis anxiety is a real thing and

it's often from watching pornography the

real problem is we are not giving sex

education to our young people they are

lost but it doesn't have to be an

addiction it's the way that you relate

to it it is something that people can

control and parents can learn how to

have these conversations with their kids

there are a couple of really nice

techniques that you can use the first is

that

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let's start with

introductions Dr Reena who are you and

what you do so I'm a urologist which is

essentially a medical and surgical

doctor of the genetry urinary tract but

I see myself more as a digital opinion

leader in the space of sexual health and

neurologic health so someone who can

talk to and speak about complex Concepts

in addition to Sexual Health in a way

that people can understand can you give

me sort of a a view of the VAR iety of

things that you've worked on in your

career the types of patients you've

worked with and the subject matter

broadly that you've addressed and are

confronted with in your line of work

absolutely so as a urologist we're

trained to treat anything in those areas

of the genitor urinary tract so that can

be kidney cancer prostate cancer bladder

cancer Sexual Health erectile

dysfunction female sexual dysfunction

kidney stones children's issues but then

when uh I did a fellowship in what's

called female pelvic medicine and

reconstructive surgery or Euro

Gynecology so I initially trained in

dealing with voiding dysfunction um and

problems with bladder leakage overactive

bladder prolapse those sorts of things

and subsequently expanding my practice

into sexual medicine so I take care of

patients with issues with erectile

dysfunction arousal or disorders

ejaculatory dysfunction um libido issues

uh lubrication issues a whole bunch of

different areas of issues that people

deal with when it comes to sexual health

Dr K same question to you sure so I'm a

psychiatrist by training but I had kind

of a roundabout way to get there so uh I

failed out of college due to video game

addiction and then went to India to find

myself studied uh to become a monk for

about seven years and then wound up

going to medical school becoming a

psychiatrist and now the majority of the

work that I do is actually like focused

on the internet so what I noticed when I

was training was that if you look at

like academic Psychiatry or Psychiatry

we focus on things like depression or

bipolar disorder or anxiety but I saw

that there was a whole lot of evolving

mental health problems for the digital

Generation video game addiction

pornography addiction and I noticed that

most of the psychiatrists weren't

focused on those we kind of had an

opioid epidemic that's still going on a

lot of problems with alcohol and

marijuana but there all these digital

addictions that are emerging and those

are the people that I work with now

Erica yeah who are you and what you

doing I'm Erica I'm independent adult

filmmaker I'm an entrepreneur I made my

first short film explicit short film 20

years ago and then I developed a career

in this space of Indie adult cinema and

are you a director yes of adult films

yeah I direct films I produce films I

also run the company

to set the stage on where we are with

pornography I found some statistics

which I thought were quite pertinent to

the discussion which is the first

statistic is that 30% of all internet

traffic roughly is related to

pornography 35% of all internet

downloads are pornographic in nature 79%

of young men view pornography monthly

64% of young adults actively seek out

pornography weekly or more often one in

five mobile searches are for

pornographic content 58% of men and 38%

of women watch porn at work and

pornography websites receive more

traffic than Netflix Amazon and Twitter

combined interestingly I found another

statistic which said that pornography in

Poland has increased 310% between 2004

which I guess is when you got into the

business and

2016 some other sort of potentially

adjacent Trends which I thought were

interesting were that the percentage of

men aged 18 to 24 reporting no sexual

activity in the past year increased from

18.9% in 2000 to over 30% in 200 16 and

similar increases in sexual activity are

seen in men and women um similar

decreases in sexual activity have been

seen in men and women among high school

students the percentage who have never

had sexual intercourse increased from

45% in 91 to 70% in 21 and finally the

average age of first exposure to

pornography is now just 11 years old and

64% of young people report to that they

came across pornography by accident so I

guess my first um point of discussion

that I wanted to raise is is

pornography a benefit to people and

society and I realize that this question

is intentionally short and narrow but

that's the basis of the first

conversation and I want to start with

you Erica is porn a benefit to people in

society it can be it can be definitely

and especially to the others who haven't

really had that right to pleasure to

desire to the sexuality remember that

women's sexuality especially has been

been so much about pleasing others I

think that it can help women to find you

know their own desire to understand

their sexuality to see others what they

like what they are doing and to turn

their Liberty on Liber on which is

obviously one of the things that so many

women are struggling with let's go

anticlockwise Dr K I'll repeat this

statement is porn a benefit to people in

society the way that corn is being

produced and consumed is starting to

cause way more harm than good I mean the

the the statistics that you really just

machine gunned out right like it's like

one thing after another thing after

another thing of things that are you

know very scary like each statement that

both of y'all made I could think about a

specific person that I've worked with

where it's like yeah I've seen that

problem I've seen that problem um you

know early exposure so when you get

exposed to pornography before puberty so

everyone thinks that pornography is

about you know like sexual lust and and

this kind of stuff and I think in a in a

good way it can be but what I've seen a

lot adults for adults is that children

are getting exposed and I've seen like a

very scary correlation between early

exposure to pornography like seven eight

nine years old right so I think your

statistic was the average is 11 yeah

that's average which means that there

are people that are higher and people

that are lower and when something I

don't know what exactly but when we get

exposed to pornography very early it

makes some kind of alteration in our

brain that makes us way more likely to

addictions not only pornography but

other things so I think that there you

know sexuality is a healthy part of

human existence um a lot of the current

research suggests that masturbation is

also like relatively speaking not

unhealthy it's somewhat healthy and so

pornography can be a part of that I

think especially listening to Erica and

how pornography can be used to elevate

Horizons increase awareness um there can

be benefits but I think what we're

clearly seeing is a trend of it being

damaging so I would say that I agree

with Erica completely I think there's

actually some data to suggest that women

who use pornography have better sexual

satisfaction rates have more frequency

of sexual encounters because they're

learning about their bodies I mean we

can't know exactly why that is but we

know there is a correlation in that

specific way and so when people are

using pornography for sexual curiosity

um for pleasure um they're generally

showing good for for the most part

without any signs of addiction or or

concerns of compulsion and use of

pornography they're using it in in a

good way and they're having better sex

because of it now in terms of using it

as a couple there's also really strong

correlations that couples that use

pornography together have better sexual

encounters and better sexual

satisfaction so I think there's a lot of

ways that pornography is used in a

positive way and not to undermine that

there are people who struggle with it

absolutely but I think yes there are

some benefits it allows people to

experience fantasies to see different

types of sexual cultures as Erica

mentioned and I think that that that is

an important side of pornography in

terms of um using that to learn what you

like and learn what you want to try in

your relationship if that's applicable

much of the literature that I've read

about and the studies I've read about

show

that if you consume pornography you're

somewhat desensi ties to the real thing

I.E sex in your relationships and when

we look at those stats on sexlessness

people are having less sex than previous

years people are losing their virginity

later and later and I wonder if that is

we've sort of been desensitized to the

real thing because of pornography Reena

absolutely so I think that there is

certainly people who feel they use

pornography as a way to achieve pleasure

and that is the sole way that they

achieve pleasure so they are constantly

using pornography and it's sometimes

correlated with a certain style of

masturbation and those things cannot be

replicated with penetrative intercourse

of any kind or you know manual

intercourse with another person and so

in those cases then it becomes difficult

because your brain habituates to that

style of stimulation and excitement and

visual sense Sensations that they're

getting from watching pornography and so

that does happen to some individuals I

would say say it's not the large

majority but certainly we're seeing more

of it what is the impact though on the

brain especially a young brain that is

exposed to pornography yeah I mean

there's no we there's no studies on kids

looking at pornography so I couldn't

tell you exactly but you might be able

to talk a look more about this yeah I

mean so like first of all I think this

is a fascinating discussion and if I can

kind of track back and freestyle for a

bit so I thought it was so interesting

because Stephen asked this question

right and he's like you know is

pornography a problem and then I thought

it was so interesting that the two women

at the table had the more positive

answers and the dude is like it's bad

right so I I think the first thing to

understand is that and it's so for me

it's eye openening to hear both of y'all

talk because I I think so much of it is

like your experience of it right we're

talking about pornography as if it's an

isolated thing but the biggest takeaway

that I already have is that there is a

relationship between the human and the

pornography uh Erica was talking about

you know how the pornography can be used

to help the human understand sexuality

become more familiar with pleasure that

we have con with your desire yeah and we

have this orgasm Gap and then and then

you know she's and Arena was saying you

know we don't I forgot exactly what you

said but something about we don't see it

very much or you said that the the

problems of um you know sexuality

relating to pornography are I thought

you said not that common which is which

is something that I'm not saying it's

common or uncommon I think that's just

such an interesting selection difference

because I work with people who have

pornography and like death grip syndrome

because I've never heard it discussed is

like very common what's death grip

syndrome so it's exactly it's a twitch

chat degenerate way of describing what

Dr mik did a great medical job of

describing which is that so what happens

is our body can acclimatize to a certain

kind of stimulation so when um often

times what happens when and I I haven't

worked with too many women and and

sexual stuff way more men um so that

there's a selection bias there too but

often times what happens is that boys or

men will start to masturbate without any

kind of lubrication and so there's a ve

they almost train their bodies physio

physiologically to climax with a certain

degree like a certain you know pounds

per square inch of force and a certain

sensation which they get used to not

only at the physiologic level but also

at the neurological level which Dr mik

alluded to that there's a certain kind

of um visual stimulation that they

almost get used to the brain

acclimatizes to in order to achieve

sexual Climax and then what happens is

when these people have a sexual

relationship for the first time the

sensations and the the from a visual

perspective you know auditory

perspective because the sounds that we

hear in these big you know fast food

pornography Productions are nowhere near

the sounds in real life um and and so

the the inputs of an actual sexual act

make it very difficult to have a A

Satisfied sexual life and so I think

that there's a lot of subtlety to you

know when Dr mik said when couples watch

porn together there are also studies

that show that as you increase your

pornography consumption that correlates

with relationship

dissatisfaction but that could be a

chicken or the egg problem am I watching

more porn because I'm unhappy with the

sexual relationship or does watching

pornography decrease my satisfaction in

the relationship and so I I think it's

there's just like so much here to

explore yeah yeah and I think your point

about the couples usually yeah if

there's a discrepancy in one partner is

watching more porn than the other then

there's s decreased satisfaction

certainly um and I think that your point

to saying that you're seeing a lot of it

well that's these people come to you for

this problem right so you're seeing this

exclusively um but I think in the

general population um and maybe they're

not coming to the urologist as often

right um but certainly I'm not seeing as

much of it and it's not reported in

terms of like people complaining about

it in studies and again these studies

are small numbers and they're not

generalizable to the entire population

but I would say that it's not as common

as I think we let on but the other

important thing to add is that there's a

because it's so nuanced there's a big

moral component people have a belief

about what pornography is good or bad

and so when they watch pornography if

they have a moral in congruence meaning

they think it's bad to watch pornography

they are more likely to report having a

problem with pornography so there's a

lot of nuance here in terms of how

pornography can be beneficial or harmful

to a specific individual and how it

affects that specific individual's

brains whether it's going to send same

Pathways um you know as any sort of

strong visual stimuli the way your body

sensitizes to those Pathways is very

individual and what about poog on the

brain then in terms of its impact on

dopamine and how that then will Cascade

into other areas of Our Lives yeah so I

mean I I'll launch this one um so I I

think that the biggest takeaway that I

have is it is doing way more than we

ever realized so the first thing is if

you get exposed to pornography early on

in life and this accidental exposure by

the way the most common story that I

hear and this is such a weird like

anecdotal statistic is um if you're if

you have older brother and you're a

younger brother I see so many

pornography addicts who have older

brothers and the most common story that

I hear is you know older brother is post

puberty and is watching pornography

which is like a little bit more

understandable and acceptable and then

your younger brother wants to do

whatever you're doing and they get

exposed to it at an early age so the

first thing that we know is that early

exposure correlates with an increase in

potential for addiction that's probably

somewhat neurologic olcal and

potentially somewhat um sociological or

family oriented because if you think

about what kind of seven-year-old will

get exposure to pornography maybe

parents aren't in the house as much so

there could be other risk factors but we

we absolutely know that when you

activate in an artificial way the

dopaminergic circuitry of the brain it

sensitizes the dopaminergic circuitry

and makes it more vulnerable to dopamine

later on this is something called the

kindling effect we see this also for

example in like marijuana as a gateway

drug the reason marijuana is a gateway

drug is is not because it makes you

immoral it's because once we start

activating certain circuits in the brain

during brain development it changes the

way that they develop the second thing

that we see is that pornography is used

as a method of emotional regulation so

if you look at like I was trying to

figure out what effect does pornography

have in the brain and so I was thinking

about okay which part of the brain does

sex come from and it turns out that

every part of the brain every

neurotransmitter is involved in the

sexual act because the purpose The

evolutionary purpose of a human being is

to procreate so all of our circuitry is

designed for this thing so we we see

that there's absolutely an emotional

regulation component um because when we

get aroused like our brain doesn't care

about you know anything else in our life

when it comes to the act of procreation

so we see a lot of emotional regulation

which then becomes an emotional crutch

so I see a lot of this now with where um

people at work will watch pornography

and it's not about masturbation or lust

it's about emotional regulation I've

seen a huge spike in second screen

pornography so we'll be working over

here and I'll just have porn like

running over here like this is a a

really common story and it's an

emotional regulation effect now the

third thing that that you uh the

question you asked about is dopamine so

here's a really fascinating thing so it

absolutely messes with your dopamine

when it messes with your dopamine it

messes with your motivation because

dopamine is the prim neurotransmitter

involved in motivation so as you watch

more pornography you just stop being as

motivated about the other things in your

life and the Really crippling thing the

really scary thing from a relationship

standpoint is that if we look at falling

in love falling in love is

primarily the function of dopamine so

when we look at a relationship there's

initial attraction which it comes from

like the thalamus in our sensory inputs

what do I see what do I hear oh she

smells great her laugh is beautiful

right that's all sensory and then we get

into the stage where we're in love when

I can't get enough of this person I'm

just sitting with this person we're not

talking we're not doing anything we're

just holding hands and oh I'm so in love

so like literally what creates that

feeling is dopamine and when we start

using pornography on a regular basis our

dopamine stores start to deplete we

start to develop dopamine tolerance and

like literally what I'm seeing

clinically matches with this because

it's harder for people to fall in love

when I talk to younger people now who

are in their 20s and 30s and struggling

to date you know you go on a couple of

dates but what's the problem there's no

chemistry there's no spark that comes

from dopamine so I think we're seeing

all kinds of really scary Downstream

effects from unregulated pornography

use I can't help but feeling that what

you're talking about is a very masculine

experience somehow and that when we're

talking about poror addiction or

compulsory Behavior with

pornography it is very related to men

and that we in our society tends to see

men's experiences as universal

experiences and I think that we lack a

perspective of really where when women

get into this construction of of

addiction of use of pornography is it

Reena do you see it as an addiction so I

you know this is what I think I think

that I the so it's not been termed an

addiction in terms of in medical

vernacular they call it problematic porn

use because it there hasn't been a clear

definition in terms of addiction right

um but I would say that I think that

there are certainly people who have this

experience but there's certainly many

many people who use pornography and

don't develop this tolerance and maybe

it's more common in younger people

because they're getting access to it

sooner and more often and that has yet

to play out at least I tend to see older

patients and so um so that has yet to

play out in in older Generations but I

would say that I think there's many

people who use it fine and don't have an

issue and so I think that while these

issues do exist there's also a whole

bunch of other things that are ongoing

in society right now that may make it

more difficult for people to connect and

for people to feel intimacy with people

because it's very difficult currently

more and more people are not getting

married more and more people are

choosing to stay single for a variety of

reasons I don't think porn is the only

Factor there I do think it is something

that people can control and so they feel

like okay if you feel like you have a

problem with it and you can control

pornography that allows you to feel like

you have control in one area of your

life that then that control can

potentially improve other areas of your

life so I think that there is

correlations here but I think it's very

complex I think the way it affects our

brains is very complex as well and like

dopamine is one way to describe it but

there's you know there's different

sensitivities and how our brain responds

to the same stimuli right the way I

watch pornography the way you watch

pornography the way anyone of us watches

pornography our brains will respond in a

different way um because our receptors

are either more sensitive or less

sensitive and there's no way to really

test that on an individual level one of

the things I found most interesting when

I had the first conversation on this

podcast about pornography is my my team

went out and looked at um a couple of

tools which pull search data so what are

people searching on the subject and the

number one most search term was how do I

quit pornography and that's quite an

interesting thing because there's a

certain desperation to that question

you know going to Google to ask Google

how you quit a behavior that makes me

think of it in the context of an

addiction and in fact the second most

popular search term was also about how

how you quit this thing and and it

speaks to a certain powerlessness that a

certain percentage of people feel they

have with pornography um throwing that

out to to everybody here no but I think

this connects also to the stigma the

huge stigma around sex and around porn

and this idea that people have somehow

that it is bad I mean people want to

watch it at the same time they they have

the moral idea that it's bad and that

they shouldn't do it but I think we're

also talking here I mean we end up

talking about porn all the time but

somehow porn is now very related to

technology and how technology kind of

has hijacked Our Lives it's not only

porn we're struggling with in that sense

and when you know with young people

people they are saying they are not

having as much sex anymore you were

talking about it before uh kids are not

playing as much anymore outside as they

used to so I think we have a correlation

there that we need to think about the

role of technology and then how much of

that space does really this pornography

take up and also to have in mind that

when we're talking about po porn most

people see it as a monolithic kind of

thing when when if you go out on the

street and you ask people what is porn

they think about the tube sites that's

what that's what they have in mind but

actually there's many different kinds of

porn existing do you think there's such

a thing as good porn and bad porn it's a

very difficult kind of Distinction to

say bad porn and good porn because if

you do that then it's you classify some

type as as acceptable and other types as

nonone and you kind of you know grow the

stigma around it I think that we need to

think about porn that is made with great

working conditions taking care of

everybody who's involved in that process

especially the performers made with uh

support by intimacy coordinator Talent

managers where the performers have been

able to be involved in the process to

give feedback on what is going to be how

how it's working they have they know all

the conditions beforehand Etc they can

give feedback afterwards H I think there

are ways of producing pornography that

are safer than what we have seen in the

past we were talking a second ago about

the impact pornography has on the brain

um and I know some of your work involves

dealing with people who have erectile

dysfunction some of the stats I read on

erectile dysfunction show that there's

been quite a significant increase over

the last couple of decades in people

reporting to have erectile function do

you think porn has played a role in

increasing erectile dysfunction as it

relates to when I'm with my partner in

the bedroom and I'm trying to have sex

so I think this goes back to the people

who are watching pornography and are

learning what sex is through pornography

and then they go to their sexual

encounter with their partner and they

don't respond the way that they do on

pornography or their partner doesn't

respond the way they do on pornography

and immediately they feel insecure right

immediately and that leads to this

psychogenic ere dysfunction where you

are no longer able to perform because

you're so stressed about the anxiety of

being able to get an erection because

maybe things didn't go the way they were

supposed to or maybe you're insecure

about your body image or a whole host of

things that come from watching maybe

some of the big box pornography where

we're not really showing real sex we're

showing a produced product that is meant

to entertain and uh Captivate people for

a short period of time and so I think

that is one certainly issue that I do

see where people start feeling this the

other thing is where people are um you

know using pornography over quite often

and then they again are are unable to

get that stimulation through a partner

right they can't get the same they're

using death grip or they're using um you

know the same this very erotic stimuli

very intense visual erotic stimuli that

they can't produce with a person and so

then they're like why am I not getting

aroused and why am I not getting an

erection and it's because they've now

relied on this solely so I do see that

certainly um as an issue in some people

who are using pornography but I don't

think it's like pornography use leads to

ED I think it's these other factors on

the way to having psychological concerns

about your own performance that lead to

issues with directions and before we

move on on Dr K's point about motivation

as well do you believe that there's a

correlation between the amount that we

watch pornography and mass debate and

someone's motivation based on what you

know about dopamine receptors you know

hard to say I think again it's very

individual certainly some people will

take the E like you know there is a

availability part when it comes to any

sort of addiction type Behavior so when

something is more available to you and

you're using it more often it can become

more problematic and so certainly I

think that plays a role in terms of like

if you're using it a lot and it's very

available to you and it's an easy way to

emotionally regulate right if you're

having stress and life you're unhappy

with your relationship or you're unhappy

with other things people are often using

pornography as a way to avoid those

negative emotions and really just

participate in something else like take

their mind off of that and so that is

sort of where it becomes this challenge

for some people yeah I just wanted to

chime in so this is fantastic because

because I I I agree with everything that

y'all are saying and I also kind of come

to a slightly different conclusion so

the number one search term that we have

is how do I I quit porn so when I hear

that and and I think Dr mik has also

done a great job of pointing out you

know there's a difference between

anecdotal clinical experience and what

we have randomized clinical trials on

you know we're not exposing

seven-year-olds to pornography and then

seeing how their brain develops by doing

MRI scans over the course of 10 years so

some of this research is absolutely not

there and we also have the number one

search term is how do I quit porn what

that tells me is that there is the

literally the largest population of what

people are looking at is to stop using

pornography and I think the reason for

that is is there good porn or is there

bad porn is it individual is it Nuance

completely agree with all those points

it's not a problem for everyone but I

think what I'm seeing very clearly is

that it's getting worse right so it's

not an issue of good or bad what is the

trend that we're seeing we're Tren the

trend that we're seeing is that Erica is

saying hey pornography can be more than

the tube sites so that then begs the

question why does everyone think that

pornography is the tube sites because

they hijacked the system exactly so I

think that word is is beautiful hijack

so I think what we're seeing what I'm

seeing is that pornography is getting

worse for sure it's becoming more of a

problem if we look at these tube sites

there there you know it's kind of like

there's nutrition and then there's

calories and a lot of what I'm hearing

y'all talk about you know Dr mik is

saying if you watch it as part of a

relationship ship that's nutrition it

can be something healthy we can learn

about ourselves we can destigmatize

various things fair enough but I think

we're seeing the same trends that we see

with like fast food where now

pornography is becoming mass-produced

and there are actually studies that show

there's a really fascinating

bizarre piece of research right which is

where the you have to go this is where

I've gone to find this stuff because we

don't have studies but there was a

particular group of biologists who were

noticing that a population of beetles

was dying out and they were trying to

figure out like why is this population

of beetles dying out and what they

discovered is there's one thing that's

responsible for these beetles not mating

with each other which is green beer

bottles that were being littered and the

green beer bottle then what they noticed

is that the Beatles were trying to go up

to the green beer bottle and mate with

it and they were like what is going on

you'd see this this litter that has a

green beer bottle and a bunch of male

beetles are clustered around it and like

they're like what is this and it turns

out that there's this concept of

something called a supera normal

stimulus so when a Beetle's eyes look at

the environment there's certain signals

that indicate this is a fertile female

and a green glass beer bottle activates

those parts of the brain and what we're

seeing with these tube sites is things

are [ __ ] things are louder things are

slipperier right we have these 4K high

defa like so we're we're sort of turning

we're taking what used to be nutritious

and we are turning it into fast food and

that and what why all these tube sites

why are they successful they're in this

darwinian war that's kind of like a race

to the bottom how can I create the

pornography that is going to leech the

most traffic away from my competitors

and they're figuring out very rapidly

that there are all kinds of weird ways

to activate the brain what our brain

looks for and what it gets excited about

and so it feels to me like there's a

race to the bottom we're making

pornography for money we're making it

more addtive but the thing is that these

companies Behind these tube sites they

are not interested in human sexuality

they're not interested in sex they're

not interested in porn they're not

interested in the conditions of the

people who are working in front of the

camera I mean they're selling

advertisement and what do they need for

that they need content that is Extreme

that has words that are click baity that

are kind of small clips that are quick

to watch they look at the algorithms to

see what works right but this reminds me

of the food industry yeah of course it's

the same as big F the same as big farmer

big fashion Etc big porn is the same how

does an industry succeed if it doesn't

engage in that practice though if

because think about the food industry

the thing that has the most sugar in

that's the most available the cheapest

is the thing that's going to succeed the

most so in the we think about these tube

sites some of the stats are crazy I mean

only fans released their earnings for

last year up 20% they made 6.6 billion

um PornHub one of the big tube sites is

the eighth most trafficed website in the

world at the moment doing 5.5 billion

monthly visits these are the brands that

people recognize and it's it's extreme

like if we think about nutrition high in

sugar it's extreme so I get the the most

extreme sort of dopamine stimulation

it's so easy to access I can one I don't

have to put my shoes on and put my After

Shave on I can just I can get on there

within 15 seconds for me to get laid I'm

going to have to put in some work I'm

going to have to go to the gym I'm going

to have to take care of I'm going to

have to go get a job I'm going to have

to get some money I'm going to Le I'm

going to have to learn how to speak to a

woman or 15 seconds and I can see the

most

extreme yeah I I think that's the

problem but I do worry to some I'm going

to play a little bit of Devil's Advocate

my devil's advocate would say that

because there's so much moral in

congruence that leads to problematic

porn news porn addiction whatever you

want to call it right that we're

creating more of it by disparaging

pornography right like that everywhere

people are saying pornography is bad

pornography is bad you can't go on any

social media platform without somebody

citing a study that says pornography is

leeching people's life force and their

you know their life is falling apart

because of pornography and Destroy lives

right and and so but so then we're also

adding to that moral in congruence by

saying that all pornography is bad

pornography is there because we're

watching it right and so people like if

you asked like probably the generation

older to me like would you be would you

be watching porn where you're seeing um

the things that you're seeing now which

I mean shocking to me right like they

would be like no I don't want to see

that right like I that doesn't interest

me in the slightest but like why is this

becoming so you know people are watching

it I mean to me so much of this is

totally anti-erotic I sometimes go there

to investigate and to kind of see what's

what's going on and what's happening and

I feel like oh no don't J it is I don't

want to see it oh I rather throw up than

you know feel excitement and wanting to

to have sex so it has an opposite effect

on on lots of their their audiences

actually but again what is it about the

it's about earning money and

concentrating power it's about selling

advertisement that's what they're doing

it's grow your dick pills it's dat the

sexy Latina in your neighborhood

it's and and as a society we have been

very slow to see what has happened

because these sides they were born you

know 17 years ago 2007 they came out it

happened very very

fast so a couple of thoughts the first

is like yeah that's exactly what's going

on is like so if we think about it we

have all of these every part of our

brain right oxytocin dopamine serotonin

estrogen testosterone right those are

hormones not brains but you know every

Circuit of the brain all of our

neurotrans MERS they're all to help us

procreate and now what's happened is

people have fundamentally

hijacked all of these circuits and we're

seeing problems and I'm with you about

the moral in congruence because we see

this in other addictions as well where

we we tried to like demonize like

alcohol usage right and we know that

once we separate out the moral in

congruence because once I feel guilty

and ashamed this is something I see a

lot I watch pornography now I feel

ashamed how am I going to cope with

those emotions watching more pornography

and so you create thisy

of like like this moral Focus cycle of

Shame and that actually fuels the

dependence so that's absolutely an issue

at the same time like these companies

and they don't care about erotic or

Falling in Love or Whatever right

they're interested in making a buck and

they're exploiting our brain and while

we should be a little bit careful about

the moralistic nature of it I mean I've

seen it gets so much it's getting worse

like every time every year and this

could be selection bias right cuz I I'm

an addiction psychiatrist but I I think

it's like even with something like only

fans because now what we're adding is a

social component the one Refuge we used

to have when it comes to pornography

whether it's ethically produced or non-

ethically produced is that there's no

way that this person is ever going to

pay attention to me I'm just consuming

something but now now I can interact

with someone someone can send me a DM

hey thank you for watching my video and

jerking off that makes me so happy but

you know it's an AI bot right sometimes

so so so I know it's an AI bot but I am

so ashamed of myself that you know take

whatever water is given to you in the

desert I am so alone I am I feel so bad

about myself and there's a chance right

there's a chance it's not an AI problem

the real problem is that we are not

speaking about sex we are not speaking

about intimacy people don't have the sex

education and they are lost and they are

human beings they have this drive and

this need and we had it in all cultures

right do you think people had the sex

education they would still be on only

fans talking to what's probably cuz

there are big agencies now I've seen on

social media there are big agencies of

men who pretend to be these porn stars

on sites like only fans and I I see them

bragging about their income it's this

big thing on Twitter at the moment I've

made $10,000 this month pretending to be

this actress speaking to young men on

only fans yeah and I think the reason

that men do that part of the reason is

because they know what men want to hear

right there's a part of us that they

know exactly what to say because it

won't be an AI bot it'll be this kind of

person and now what's happening is we're

activating the social loneliness aspect

and combining it with pornography so now

you actually have a relationship with

maybe an AI bot maybe a dude right but

there is like some amount of genuine

human interaction over the Internet so

this is getting worse and I think sex

education is an excellent point at the

same time I don't know if sex education

is going to be sufficient because I

think we can teach people about their

bodies but we're also seeing like a wh

scale social skills atrophy where dudes

don't know how to talk to girls anymore

yeah and also media porn is Media it's

important to understand that it's

telling us messages about gender roles

how we interact about sexuality how our

body functions Etc so when we have all

this

misinformation going on on this online

huge media of free porn and we see women

screaming in fake orgasms after four

minutes of hard penetration and as a

woman you look at her and you say she

didn't even use her fingers what

happened you know and you just know that

something is wrong here that this is

fake but then there's lots of men out

there thinking this is what my

girlfriend should be doing this is how

it should work and then they don't

connect in real life what kind of point

do you make what kind of porn do I make

I make I make lovely porn I make

beautiful porn I make cinematic porn I

make porn with you know with intentions

of of of

showing different uh ideas of desire and

fantasy where people I try to work with

people who are connecting who show

chemistry together I ask my performers

who they want to work with I try to team

them up I support them with a system of

intimacy coordinator Talent managers

producers in the background that take

care of them that check who they are

what they like what kind of sexuality do

they have but if I was a consumer of

your pornography what would I notice

that what would you notice probably the

great cinematography would be the first

thing you would notice kind of

narratives uh that are erotic driven

somehow where people explore their

desire and their sexuality you would

notice

um you you would feel very I mean many

people tell me they they Go like Erica

but I watch your films is it really porn

because they identify porn as something

that is kind of tacky

agly kind of objectifying Etc so

suddenly when they see people in my

films having sex coming together and

everything is kind of you understand why

they are Desiring each other and you

kind of I am invite them to join this

kind of erotic journey of the characters

then they go but this is more like like

in the in the cinema in the eroic cinema

can I is it fair to assume that because

you from what I've heard though the

pornography you produce is has a slower

story arc which is more reflective of

what sometimes okay so so I'm trying to

because the things that you it sounds

like you might have yeah removed from

the pornography you make yeah versus the

pornography I'd find on one of of the

big tube streaming sites the most

popular videos on the tube streaming

sites it sounds like you might have put

yourself at a bit of a competitive

disadvantage in many respects because

those streaming sites if their incentive

is purely money yeah the data is going

to determine what people see so that's

so it feels like they've really

optimized for user consumption where

you've optimized for something around

ethics because I care about it for me

the money is not the most important

aspect why I you know created this

company why I'm making this I really

want to kind of send a different kind of

message out to the world do your content

end up on those sites sometimes

sometimes uh years ago it was taken on

those sites for example changing the

wording of it because remember that many

of these sites also what they do is that

they fetishize people they use very

racist language chauvinistic language

Etc

and my movies may have much softer kind

of language and the way they are so uh

they they obviously pirated them they

put them up and they changed kind of the

wording for for the bits it was a very

hard process to take them down Etc what

do you think is better for someone's

relationship specifically so men and

women do you think no porn is better for

their relationship do you think your

porn is better for their relationship or

do you think and obviously I think it's

individual I think it's a very

individual decision what works best

sorry yeah I can answer I've never seen

one of your films I can tell you it's

her porn thank you better than no porn

I'm going to go ahead and go out on a

limb and saying that if you're someone

who's struggling with

pornography watching an erotic film with

a glass of wine with your significant

other is a great way to

transition from bite-sized Fast Food

calorie dense [ __ ] slippery loud porn

two it's like how do we rewire the brain

right how do we move one step at a time

from this to this and because like like

the word erotic seems so powerful to me

it's about anticipation even when we

talk about you know differences between

male and in female sexuality the the lag

time of parasympathetic activation in

foreplay is so much more important

biologically and correct me if I'm wrong

here um uh for women than it is for men

I mean we're like kind of ready to go

and we want to make it short and and so

I think like it's almost like a part of

that sexual education is in

understanding okay how can we teach men

to be erotic again instead of these like

very like chicken nugget style highly

processed like this is what I think it

is maybe watch some of Erica's film when

we talk about watching pornography with

your partner I wonder if that is the

rule of the exception to the rule you

know because I yeah I mean so you're

saying what do we do I think we have an

erotic film watch party

right we have anime watch parties we

have different kinds of watch parties

like this thought had never occurred to

me before I'm sure it is a terrible

idea on that point though if you reduce

the stigma by having these watch parties

um does that then because you cited

earlier that it's a tool for emotional

regulation so when people are stressed

or depressed or anxious they seek it out

if we remove the stigma does that

increase the addiction so it's a great

question so I think there's it kind of

goes both ways and what I mean by that

is see we run into addictions when this

substance becomes or or behavior becomes

one to one correlated with something

else so right now the problem with

pornography isn't that it it yeah it's

so the problem is if I watch pornography

and that's the only method I use to

regulate my emotions that will increase

the addiction now the flip side of it is

also true if the only reason I watch

pornography is to regulate my emotions

that will strengthen that addiction

capability so I'll give you all just a

simple example from like alcohol right

so if I use alcohol after A Hard Day's

Work to get through the day and calm

down and then I stop drinking for fun

whereas alcohol can be used as an

emotional coping mechanism or it can be

used to celebrate a wedding right so the

substance can be used in different ways

and the more that we use it in different

ways in healthier ways the more it

actually chips away at the addiction in

some cases this is also highly

individualized so depending on your

genetic predisposition dispositions and

stuff like that you know you may not be

able to drink at weddings but we also

see the opposite which is like you know

a huge number of people are qualify for

an alcohol addiction in college and then

most of those people are able to develop

healthy relationships with it and one of

the biggest changes we're seeing in

addiction is that there do seem to be

healthy relationships that we can

develop I think it's about changing our

relationship to the thing now seeing

someone naked engaging in a sexual act

is not solely about getting off it's not

solely about emotional regulation it's

not solely about dopamine it can now

become a film experience that we can

enjoy so we're diversifying our

relationship to the object I don't know

if that makes sense psychoanalytic

awareness mindfulness understanding of

other of how you use that how you and

then I I think this is also great like

just the simple idea that like if dudes

are watching this recognizing watching

an erotic film with your significant

other assuming a heteronormative a

heterosexual relationship you know may

be a great way for you to enhance your

sexual experience you don't need dick

enhancing pills or or you know whatever

else right like because that's and I'm

sure Dr mik knows better than I do but

you the majority of the no I I meant

more as a

year I didn't think that but

okay no no so so like you know my

understanding from med school right so

back when I was doing Urology and I I

work with some things like vaginismus

and stuff like that yeah um is you know

the majority of the female nerve endings

are are you know at the front end of the

vagina and if you get all the way back

to the cervix that's like painful so you

don't actually need a gigantic penis I

was trying to think about whether I

should use some other word but you know

and and so to help like you know if men

are the ones who are primarily having

this addictive problem then let's call

it what it is which is help men realize

that sex ual pleasure engaging in a

relationship that pornography can be a

force for good and doesn't necessarily

have to be evil but and maybe like

erotic film moves Us in that direction

and like I just got to say man like my

degenerate male brain is kind of telling

me like you know watching an erotic film

for an hour and a half could be the best

and easiest foreplay that I could ever

do would be a lot easier yeah pretty

quick um but I would say the other thing

I've been thinking about while we've

been talking about this is we don't talk

about erotic audio literature or erotic

books which is more commonly used by

women but we don't stigmatize that like

women are like oh I love these books and

I read them all the time and nobody is

sitting here saying like it's bad I know

thoughts on that because it's not naked

bodies I guess here the main problem

again is back to to our bodies we are

somehow ashamed of our bodies of our

nakedness of our

sexuality I mean women can show nipples

online we know that uh you can I I mean

I'm heavily censured I can't show

anything on my accounts my my social

media accounts are cut off all the time

it's impossible to grow do you think

pornography should be bound on social

media Dr K should pornography be banned

on social media yes pornography should

be banned I can answer that I'm I'm I'm

making it I definitely think it should

be banned but I don't that the explicit

images should be banned but the right to

discuss about it to talk about it to

give uh sexual advice or to you know

discuss different topics around

sexuality we should be allowed to do

that we should be allowed well we're

allowed to do that no I get I get banned

too really cuz this doesn't get banned

maybe you are allowed to YouTube is

different Twitter's fine Instagram's

fine YouTube's fine Instagram Instagram

I have Ted Talks that are censured so

only people who are over 18 and have an

account online have access to watch

watch them and it's me

talking yeah no it there is definitely

uh limitations the thing that we've

noticed is your video just doesn't

appear in search in the same way but

they still recommend the video so when

we had for example Andrew huberman on a

couple of weeks ago and he talked about

pornography because PA was in the title

in the thumbnail the video got huge

recommendations by the algorithm but if

you typed in Andrew hub

it would not come up until we CH took

the word porn out and you type in Andrew

hubman and it comes up so that's the

only we've noticed but we've been quite

surprised actually

by yeah I I think it's so cool that like

you know you asked me that question and

she jumped in with an answer no no I

think it's good I I think it's like

because you asked I mean I think that's

the value of this right because my I I

don't feel nearly as passionate I mean

you asked her the question you know is

it which of these is the best and I

jumped in with an answer I was like this

is clear to me and and I I think just a

couple of things that I just want to

touch on the first is that um you know

what Dr bollock was saying about you

know audio Literature Like erotic

fiction or romance novels right so I I

think it's harder to commoditize that

which goes back to Erica's point of of

you know like some things are more

likely to be turned into fast food so I

think that erotic literature it's like

harder to do that um I also do think

that going back to this earlier point of

like you know men are epidemiologically

more vulnerable to addiction I think

it's more complicated than that in

just psychological hurt or problems

manifest in men as addiction and look

different in in women when it emerges um

so I think it's kind of like you know so

we're we're sort of seeing a difference

in addictive quality it's easier to

commoditize more sensory organs uh so I

think that's an important point and I I

think in terms of you know should it be

banned or not like I don't know um so I

work kind of like more at the individual

level and arguably some at scale but

like like one of the key things is you

know I have some ideas about what should

be done but I I'm not too sure about

that I'm I'm curious you know I I don't

know like I no but I'm saying it

basically because it's open for kids

again this is why I'm saying if if we're

having social media and it's for people

18 about then we're talking about

another thing but go to Twitter or it's

not called Twitter anymore uh the X go

there and it's full of porn it is it is

it is full of porn you can you

accidentally stumble across porn I was

saying this to my partner a couple of

weeks ago I said look at how Twitter's

changed and I said watch this scroll

down my timeline and I know there's ALG

so if I dwell on something more often

then it's going to show me more but I

scroll

down I scroll down I was like look porn

and I was like oh look she's taking her

close of scroll scroll scroll I didn't

realize it was new to the it didn't

happen I've actually not seen it but

I've had many people who tell me that it

comes up on their feet all the time

recent change to the algorithm which is

prioritized again um View time so if you

want to want people to dwell longer show

them video Extreme video people being

shot someone being hit by a car fights

pornography wow you increase your dwell

time you increase your advertising and

this is just how incentives play out so

much of the discussion we've had today

and much of my

like why I refer to it sometimes as

being idealistic because sometimes it

can sound like just give them

broccoli when actually if you leave them

to their own devices no one's going to

want broccoli they're going to take the

cookies if the cookies are available and

If you equate this to food we did put

labels on food to say look this has got

this much calories in it we've put a

sugar tax on sugar in the UK we you on

cigarettes we say if you smoke these

cigarettes this is what's going to

happen to your lungs and we put explicit

images of how your lungs will get you

know cancers and things like this should

we be doing something similar with

pornography because part of me goes just

you know saying we should just give them

broccoli this kind of like erotic

different point they're not going to

they're not going to eat it no but but

but also again adults I think they have

the right to watch pornography

whatever kind of pornography it is as

long as it's legal and and and well done

I wish all pornography would be

ethically produced I know that the

industry is working towards more

standards Etc because you know we have

been as a society talking about it they

don't have much of a choice because if

they don't go that way should we should

we tell them about the harms of

pornography at the point of consumption

like we do with

cigarettes it's a bit difficult Maybe

maybe I I think we should we should talk

about what could happen like gambling

what effects like like gambling like but

but this also happens you you've been

talking about gaming a lot you know

there's a way of of gaming and healthy

gaming right there's a way of video

games that is too much and not too much

I what do you think don't okay yeah so I

mean I think it's it's a great question

so I've got like um a couple of

different things so I'm going to about

to contradict myself so the first is

that we know that you know putting

warning labels on things does move

things in the right direction but I love

to just share a story so when I was a

medical student didn't really understand

much about medicine or Psychiatry or

humans um you know I had a patient who

came in and was smoking and so I I came

in and I was like you know he came in I

was like a first year medical student so

I was like I'm gonna be a doctor one day

and so this person comes in I'm like sir

do you know that smoking is dangerous it

can cause lung cancer it can do this it

can do this it can do this so the

person's like yeah you know oh like that

sounds bad I don't want L cancer I was

like great we're going to give you like

a prescription to help you quit and you

can get a nicotine patch and like I was

like I'm going to be a doctor one day so

month later guy comes in and like I ask

him how's the quitting smoking going and

he's like well I I'm still smoking and

then I was like I don't think you

understand man it increases risk of

heart disease and stroke and all these

kinds of things like it's going to like

do all this kind of stuff and he's like

yeah oh that's bad I don't want any of

that stuff and I was like cool so like

you're going to quit right and he's like

yeah and so I then he comes in and I I

comes in the next month he still hasn't

quit and I started to try to figure out

what's going on right so one of the key

things that we learned is that if you

want someone to eat broccoli instead of

cookies um telling them that cookies are

unhealthy for you isn't good enough so

we need generally speaking when you look

at recovery from addiction and

behavioral change you have to have a

good enough reason to do it yeah so I

was still blunt and I figured this out

and talk to my my preceptor and stuff

and then I asked this person so what's

important to you and he's like oh you

know I love my daughter

and then I asked them a very bad

question I was like when you and he was

like I was like what you know tell me

about your daughters and he was like you

know I can't wait like I'll know I can

die a happy person once I've walked them

down the aisle and I they're married and

stuff like that and then I asked him a

question I was like when you walk down

the aisle do you want to be carrying an

oxygen tank behind you and he was like

what I was like if you keep smoking

that's what's going to happen or maybe

you'll be in a wheelchair right so I was

a first year medical student kind of

brutal but that actually sunk in you

have to connect with people with what

they care about yeah that is still a

warning though isn't it you've put a

warning on that Absol but it's it's it's

a little different right so so it's

individualized but even now when we you

know I'm I stream on Twitch and I try to

get people to stop playing video games

which is like holding an AA meeting in a

bar and what I've discovered is I'm with

you we've lost a lot of faith in

humanity if you give them a broccoli and

a cookie they're going to take a cookie

but I I'm still hopeful I think that we

do see the number one search is how do I

quit porn there's a lot of energy in

desire to do it they just don't have a

path and I think one of these very

simple things is like emphasizing an

erotic film and telling people hey if

you're lonely hey if you're having

trouble finding a relationship you know

hey if you're if you have a problem with

premature ejaculation or you're having

difficulty engaging in a sexual act and

can't achieve orgasm what you need to do

is slow it down don't make sex a three

minute jiggly slippery experience slow

it down watch an erotic film reprogram

your brain like I bet you money that if

we somehow figured out if we told people

you can reprogram your brain by watching

erotic film and we could say that

scientifically that would be incredibly

successful because I think people are

hungry for this right they're hungry for

what we were biologically designed to do

which is connect and have fulfilling

sexual relationships what's your take on

that Dr yeah I think that that's that

would be helpful absolutely because I

think's telling someone to go cold

turkey from having something that they

do derive pleasure from right even if

they're even if they have addictive

potential addictive personalities

towards that behavior then giving them

something else that they can still

derive pleasure from and have the the

benefits of orgasm and have the benefits

of feeling that desire and enjoyment is

is a really great way when you tell

someone you take something away that

they've used as a crutch potentially and

they have nothing to replace it with and

I you know we've talked about this far

giving people a purpose a lot of times

people don't have purpose and so they're

they're like they have nothing else to

do and they're like oh I'll just do this

thing because I'm bored and that's one

of the reasons people watch porn is

because they're bored and so you give

them a purpose something else to do

whether it's an erotic film or actually

purpose in their life um maybe it's

meeting people outside in the real world

which would be even better that would

help our our issues with not getting

married having high divorce rates and

not having kids right but like I think

those would be great Solutions if we

could come up with ways to get people to

either find a substitute or find purpose

interestingly there's clearly a two-way

relationship with purpose porn

motivation Etc so it we giving them a

purpose one might say well then we stop

porn because then I'll have more

motivation to put their shoes on yeah so

I I think you know if you look at

there's one study that showed the two

strongest variables with pornography

addiction or a sense of meaninglessness

in in life and I forget what the other

variable is maybe early age of exposure

um but so I I I think it's it's kind of

spoton right so when I don't have a life

that's worth living what happens my body

and my brain become squeeze bottles of

dopamine because what is the joy of life

so I try to just extract as much

dopamine as I can for my brain so that I

have some joy in the day some kind of

pleasure and then I watch more of this

mass-produced supernormal stimulus

pornography because that squeezes more

dopamine out of my neurotransmitters and

the more that my life becomes that now

there's a moral component now I feel

ashamed now if I remember looking at

some statistics on online dating

profiles and like saying that you're a

dude who watches porn is like an instant

no but if I'm watching pornography it's

going to sap me of the motivation to

pursue my purpose absolutely so if I'm

extracting all my dopamine through

watching pornography I'm going to have

none left for Behavioral reinforcement

from other activities so what reading

books becomes not as much fun going to a

park becomes not as much fun so it's

absolutely this vicious cycle where

meaninglessness I have no reason to do

anything all day so I might as well

watch some porn not erotic film so we

canel porn then

no so

please let us have it yeah I I don't

know I mean the on you're done the

majority of my income and why brand

would collapse if you started Bing so

short no I mean I think there I think we

have to I I mean I think there's a lot

of things we've talked about but I think

sexual education I think understanding

that you know explaining to younger kids

of what they're watching right I think

adults have a little bit more um their

brains are fully developed they

understand what they're watching they

know it's a produced product they

presumably have already gone through the

process of finding a job and doing other

things that give them purpose maybe they

have children maybe they have a family

right but but the I think it's really in

that Young Generation they're finding

themselves maybe they're going out and

they're not finding a partner because we

know that there's less people coupling

there's higher you know Mis match of

expectations we've talked about that too

in terms of dating and so you know it's

it's very easy for those people when

they're still trying to figure out what

to do with their lives to fall into

something like that and I think if we

really focus on that generation I think

and that's a generation that probably

shouldn't be watching porn anyways right

um and and I think that would make huge

a huge difference and help parents

because parents are really really

worried how' you do it I mean you you

there's many way of kind of of of of

starting it but but they what they need

to know really is that you are there for

them you are open if they have any kind

of of Doubt situations you are going to

be there for them this is not a subject

that you are going to you know bail out

because you feel too ashamed or you

can't handle difficult questions I would

tell parents educate yourself if you're

having kids you're going to have to talk

to them about sex if you didn't get

education what age you need to start

when really really young you need to

start when they're learning language I

mean young kids today many of them they

don't know the difference between a

vagina and a vulva even Billy ish in an

interview came out saying that she

wanted to put her face in in people's

vaginas no and you go what what happened

you're talking about vulva girl you know

yeah no it has to start from I

completely agree with everything you're

saying I have kids I've talked to them

about sex I think you you have to start

early with at least knowing the anatomy

right knowing what their body parts are

and what the body parts of are of the

opposite gender um so that they know

that they're different and and all that

stuff and then honestly being open

they're going to ask you questions like

it's kids are curious and so they'll

come home and be like what's this what's

that and not being like oh no no no I'm

not going to talk about that it's just

like okay yeah let's have a conversation

about it and let's talk about it and

realize that it's not going to be one

conversation it's going to be like

throughout their development as they

become older you're going to maybe

introduce more topics or they may have a

question for you and just never shaming

that and that can come even early right

kids are masturbting babies are

masturbating like as young that's a

soothing Behavior right and so sometimes

you'll see your child doing it you don't

want to shame them right because that's

already setting up that stage of Shame

so sort of allow being like okay that's

that's fine that you're doing that but

maybe do that in private and that's

something that you do in private um but

you know I think it's really important

to have these conversations and it's

uncomfortable it's going to be

uncomfortable and know that it's going

to be uncomfortable but like we have a

duty cuz they're not going to learn it

at school in the way or enough in school

yeah so I I I completely agree with what

they said so it's really interesting

because the number one question so when

we started talk working with Gamers what

happened very quickly is parents started

reaching out and they're like hey I have

a son who's got this problem usually a

son sometimes a daughter 7030 and um how

do I talk to them so we actually started

doing a study in 2020 2020 or 2021 where

we started developing different kinds of

techniques and measuring what worked

best so now we have four years of data

um a lot of those findings went into the

book about how to raise a healthy gamer

which is actually all about

conversational techniques for parents

about how to talk to their kids so for

four years here are the biggest

takeaways uh so that book is like it's

conversational techniques about video

game addiction but we find that this

works really well for pornography too so

the first is uh like Dr mik said um

multiple conversation so the first

mistake that parents make is that they

think that they have to get it all in in

one conversation talk

no it's it's lots of them second thing

start earlier than you think you need to

yeah so one of the biggest principles

that we learn in in you know medicine is

that you don't have endof life

conversations when someone is dying you

have to have the conversation before

it's an issue so I I think we were

talking about you said what 64% of

people get exposed to pornography at the

age of 11 right so accidentally accident

still but so that what that tell parents

think oh I like I can push this off and

wait until they're 14 or

and and of course my Beta is not going

to watch right oh he's good he's so good

not my Beta KS right yeah not in our

house yeah and you I I noticed you said

you talked to your kids about sex have

you talked to them about porn yeah okay

my older one my older one nice good job

thank you um your beta is going to be so

good so so I think it's going to be

multiple conversations start earlier

than you need to and then there are a

couple of really nice techniques that

you can use so the first is asking

open-ended questions and not about you

watch porn it can start with hey are are

you familiar with what pornography is do

you know what it is what do you

understand about pornography another

really good evidence-based technique

which has been shown to be effective for

talking about drugs is do you have

friends who watch porn do you have

friends do you know people or kids in

your school watching this yes or no what

do you think about that so oftentimes

you don't want to ask the kid directly

you want to ask about what's happening

around you and then you can ask them

what do you think about that do you have

questions so make yourself a resource

and signal to them that hey we can have

this

conversation and it's preparing them for

the world really it's giving them the

tools to be able to manage situations

that will come up because sex is not

easy and they're going to be in

difficult moments and if they have been

prepared they're going to know better

how to respond to those moments you know

if they're watching that pornography

though the type that's available on

those tube streaming sites do you

believe that it will cause or lead to a

rise in violence between men and women

because when I look at some of the

statistics around this nearly one in

three porn videos contains physical

violence and almost 90% of the most

famous porn scenes are violence scenes

18 to 21 year olds out of 18 to 21 year

olds 179% had seen pornography involving

sexual violence when they were children

and almost 50% of young people say girls

expect sex to involve physical

aggression such as Airway restriction

and according to a study in

2024 um of 18 to 35 year olds they found

that 57% of young people aged um from 18

to 35 had been strangled themselves

during sex and 51% had been strangled um

at least once during sex and my last

stat on this is the BBC revealed that

38% of women under the age of 40 have

experienced un wanted slapping choking

and gagging during consensual sex and

42% of these women said they felt

pressured or coerced into doing it so we

can allow people to watch pornography

but is there not a risk that at a very

young age at the age of 11 we're going

to learn that sex is a violent act and

that's going to make us more violent G

to start with you yeah this is a really

important discussion and I think you

know I actually spoke to De Debbie

herban who leads a lot of the studies on

strangulation and so basically what they

found is that very commonly Young people

College age students are having

strangulation or during intercourse or

during for plane it's become so common

that it's almost like kissing right like

this is something that is so common and

often consent is not being discussed or

like hey can I do this yeah it's all

right but it's not like a real

discussion and as you guys all know and

especially asphixiation can lead to loss

of oxygen to the brain and and sort of a

whole host of things and so I think

ultimately that is a concern for sure in

terms of um you know we have in movies

for a reason right like we don't show

our kids like the boys for example on

Netflix right because it's very violent

and so similarly we would like to have

ratings on pornography and they

shouldn't have access to it but

sometimes they see it now uh yeah that

is a concern I don't know exactly how to

rectify that maybe you have some

thoughts is that because we want it

though earlier on you said a porn is

there because we we want it so I'm

thinking isn't strangulation in porn

because that's the type of porn that

people want so there is you know some

people who derive pleasure from is you

know from a temporary occlusion of uh of

of breath right and so there is some

people who enjoy that erotically but

that doesn't mean that that's Universal

and um and again it's fantasy so just

because you watch something on

pornography doesn't mean that you should

be doing it it's a fantasy um it's not

real life and that's in a hopefully a

controlled safe situation where they're

producing that pornography but I think

it's very important when we're starting

to talk about sexual violence towards

women that we understand that that

doesn't come from porn that existed long

before porn sexual violence towards

women is a systemic problem we have in

our society and we all know that the

most dangerous place for a woman is her

own home it's her own husband or her

boyfriend or her relatives around her

Etc so the way I see it porn reflects

the values we have in our society I

think I see porn a bit as a mirror of

many of the of of of the values in our

society amongst them sexual violence

towards women but then it's also true

obviously that nowadays as porn has

become more popular we're getting into a