What are you afraid of them seeing?

>> I think it's more of I don't know what

people are going to see.

>> Ah. And so you notice like oh this is a

chef, like she's not even making eye

contact. She's like turning away. She's

like trying very hard to not engage with

you at all.

>> Yeah, she's the first person that I've

ever been real with in a lot of ways

[music] and like seeing a lot of who I

really was.

>> Welcome to Love Maxing with Dr. K, the

show where we talk to real people about

their real dating struggles.

>> [music]

>> I'm Dr. K, a Harvard-trained

psychiatrist, and today we're going to

meet Brian. Brian is as much of a knight

as you can be in the [music] world

today. He believes in chivalry, competes

in melee combat, and also performs on

stage. And Brian checks all the boxes

that we normally think of that lead to

success in dating. He's 6'4, is

passionate about his career, and is a

good-looking dude. So you'd [music]

think that he has it made. But despite

being charismatic on stage, he freezes

up every time he talks to women.

>> That icebreaking moment is is is the

most difficult. I will freeze I will

freeze in my shoes and I will close um

completely [music] up.

>> We spend the first part of the interview

getting to know Brian and understanding

how he thinks. And then [music] things

take a turn.

>> I I I get a sense of

random awfulness that pops up that you

can sort of do nothing about. [music]

And the other 13 days you can kind of

manage, but every once in a while this

thing inside you comes up. [music] And

we learn from Brian that freezing up

when you talk to girls is the first

thread to a bigger knot that complicates

your life.

>> So sometimes like in my job

I get a sense of something.

>> Mhm.

>> I'm surprised by the emotion I'm feeling

right now, but I I just got this very

clear image of like you standing in

armor like facing down a dragon that's

like really scary. It is potentially

lethal.

>> This is one of the coolest interviews

that I've done. And if y'all want more

information on dating, check out Dr. K's

Guide to Love, Sex, and Relationships.

So let's jump into the interview. Um

thank you so much for coming today.

>> Yeah, a pleasure.

>> Uh, so first tell me so you've got

something cool around your neck. What's

that?

>> Uh, it's a it's a little shield

necklace. Um,

I [clears throat]

I like to embody like the knighthood and

kind of stuff. Um, and so like the

shield is like very much kind of like a

a symbol that I like to try to

represent. It's I've worn it around my

neck for probably like the last 2 years.

>> Wow.

>> Um, this is a newer one that my sister

got me for Christmas. I had I have an

older one that sits in my bag. Um, but

it's like protection, feeling safe like

making people around me feel safe. It's

the shield over the sword kind of

mentality. Um, but it's very important.

It's a symbol I try to keep on me at all

times.

>> Okay, what what is that? That's

fascinating. Can I ask about that?

>> Yeah, please.

>> What what what do you mean by embody the

knighthood?

>> Uh,

well

as a historian

the idea of like chivalry and stuff. I

mean as a kid I always wanted to be a

knight.

Um, and um,

unfortunately history uh, knights

weren't always the best people.

Um, but I think our modern

interpretation of them is probably more

of idealistic um, courtesy and honor and

bravery and sacrifice and kind of all

these great values I I think are are

awesome and and and great to hold. Um,

and so that's kind of like the the

person I want to be

um, and kind of hold those values.

>> Cool. Um, and you said that when you

were a kid you wanted to be a knight.

>> Oh yeah, all the time.

>> Can you tell me about that?

>> Yeah, like I I I

think I I don't know. I I was always

fascinated with history as a kid.

>> Okay.

>> Um, and [clears throat] kind of those

strong figures like I remember

like wearing

I think they were like a KFC bucket that

I like cut the

>> Nice.

>> the the knight helmet out of and a trash

can shield and and stick and and

reenacting those moments in the backyard

as a kid like with my brother. It was

never about like saving the princess. If

think it was more of the the male

fantasy of like sacrificing yourself at

the gate holding the enemy kind of

mentality.

Um, but [clears throat] I

I mean it was just it was play as a kid.

>> Um, were you ever a LARPer?

>> Uh, I in another world absolutely. Um, I

think I would have been into embarrassed

to be in a park like that. Um, I love I

love fantasy and role play like huge

into D&D.

Um, and and kind of that element. Um,

but I I I was too self-conscious. It

wasn't until probably when I became an

actor and and started exploring that

realm of myself that I like fell into

like the Renaissance Fair

uh, and was able to play that character

in more an environment where it was

expected rather than the local park.

>> Oh, when it was expected you said? Or?

>> Yeah. Uh, like kind of um, in a in a in

an environment where

uh, it wouldn't be unusual.

>> Okay.

>> Um, for for it.

>> And and do you find that when you're at

Ren Fair? So so can you tell me a little

bit like how does that work?

>> Uh, like like how do you mean? Like at

the Ren

>> like what is your what is your what is

what is your year look like?

>> Uh,

>> Like do you travel around and stuff?

>> It changed. Oh, so uh, primarily for

like the Renaissance stuff it's I do

stuff here in Texas. Primarily with the

Texas Renaissance Festival. Uh, I've

been a performer there. I've worked on

their pub crawl. And right now I uh, I

work with a company called Full Steel

Combat. Um, and a couple other uh, teams

here. But it's more more on the the

regards of like Buhurt, which is uh,

medieval combat sport. Uh, we dress in

armor and we beat the hell out of each

other.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, that I do full-time. Um, so like

that that includes the Texas Renaissance

Festival. Uh, we go to tournaments. So

like IMCF, uh,

the International Medieval Combat

Tournament or Federation. Um, like I was

in Ireland uh, a year ago. They're going

to Denmark this year. Uh, We kind of go

fight like for United States. I was

mercenary for Ukraine.

Um

>> So, you actually fight on behalf of the

United States in steel and like steel

plate armor with shields and I assume

blunted swords.

>> Yeah,

uh, it's so all the armor is,

uh, authentic. Um, I mean, it's for

safety reasons. It's going to be like to

specific standards. Um, but typically

it's handmade uh, specifically to your

body and your measurements. And then the

weapons we use, yeah.

>> So, so you have a you have a suit of

plate armor that

>> Oh, yeah. Uh, do you want to see a

photo? I don't know if

>> Not not right now. Later. Yeah.

>> But yeah, absolutely. Yeah, full full

suit of armor.

Um, it's typically either made of steel

or titanium.

Um, and

>> Titanium?

>> Yeah, it's the lighter metal.

>> Okay.

>> Um, more people use it more for like,

um,

like tournament fighting, so like point

fighting.

Um, I like I fought uh, there's a

federation called the AMMA, which is

just MMA but in armor. Um, and that

you'll use more titanium just cuz it's

you're not trying to like bludgeon

somebody. It's more getting the the

strikes and the points. Um, but

>> does the scoring work?

>> Um, so in Buhurt, on like team fighting,

typically it was, um,

uh, the goal is to get the other knights

to the ground. The idea is in historical

combat, uh, typically if a knight hits

the ground, that's where they're most

vulnerable. That's when someone's going

to actually be able to

uh, hurt the person.

Um, but so that's the goal to get the

individual to the ground and then in

more tournament style stuff, there'd be

point fighting. So, it's like strikes.

So, if you hit the guy in the head, it's

going to be two points. If you get the

high of the guy in the arm. And those

are typically one v ones, where team

fights are going to be more of get the

guy to the ground.

>> Do you have a ranking?

>> Um

>> Do they have rankings in like Elo?

>> I mean, not not neces- there's not

enough fighters in the community yet

where I think they could they have like

weight classes and then they have we

have people in the sport that are like

gold medalists, bronze medalists, silver

medalists. Like I've I've bronzed when I

fought

IMCF 2025, I was fighting with the

Ukrainian team

and we bronzed in our five and our 10

our 5 v 5s and our our

12 v 12s.

>> So so you're you're actually like

I mean you do things that I mean without

the death. But but I mean as as far as

you can get to being a knight in today's

world, like you're basically doing it.

>> Yeah, I I I like it cuz it it it it

plays the line between like historical

and and sport.

>> And how did you So so it sounds like you

had a KFC bucket on your head, trash can

shield, and stick.

>> Yeah.

>> And then now you have a full suit of

steel/titanium armor.

>> Mhm.

>> And you're [clears throat] a bronze

medalist in an international

competition.

How did you get from

KFC bucket on the head to titanium

armor?

>> Uh the Renaissance Fair was my intro to

it. I was a performer there. I was I was

a guard at one point. I was Batman for

one of these seasons

and I saw them doing it.

>> So but but like when you were in high

school, like what was your life like?

>> Uh

I mean totally different.

My my younger years, I was

very closed off, socially awkward.

My like I had a problem talking to the

barista cuz she made my coffee wrong. Um

and it wasn't until probably like senior

year.

I moved around a lot.

Like no longer than two years in one

place.

>> Why is that?

>> Uh my dad

not a not a military brat, but corporate

brat is like what I like to say. If you

want to move up the ladder in the

corporate world, you got to be willing

to move. And so I've lived all over

Texas, Washington, Georgia, California,

Uh um about

>> What what field was he in?

>> Um he

I mean he he's been in a couple

different fields. He worked for Cisco um

and that's where [clears throat] we did

primarily a lot of our moving, but um

ultimately leadership positions is kind

of where he ended up um and kind of

overall big picture

uh is how I would describe it.

>> What was that like?

>> Um

I think it has its ups and its downs. Uh

I think I learned a lot. Uh I learned a

lot about culture and uh people and I

was able to make friends pretty quickly,

at least in the environments that

allowed for it. Um and I got to learn to

read people.

Um I definitely think it affected my

like I never grew up with best friends

in one location. Like I don't have that

community, I think. Um and I think that

was probably a little detrimental, but

um

I got to explore and I got to explore

different people and different

communities. And so I think

I had a a wider picture than most.

>> So I'm a bit confused um

so you said that you were socially

awkward and had trouble telling the

barista when you got your order wrong.

>> Yeah.

>> But then you also said that you made

friends pretty quickly and you're good

at reading people. So can you help me

understand

>> Yeah.

>> how those two things

>> I I say making friends quickly, I mean

more like in the the I

uh in like a social situation with like

classes. I I maybe I

misspoke about the friends thing, but um

I found I found that going to a new

school, it was very easy to

um find my people. My people is like two

friends, but I latched on really

quickly, I think. Um and it would

typically be in like the

like D&D club or kind of that atmosphere

where where it was easier to

>> So did you find yourself being like

socially awkward there or you felt

pretty comfortable?

>> I think comfortable. Um I mean

especially warming up into it. I think I

warmed up faster in those situations. Um

but definitely

like I wasn't I wasn't popular or

um

like

>> Yeah.

>> had a lot of friends. Like I my brother

was that guy. Um like he made friends

with everybody and and was the was the

popular kid. Um

and so

>> How do you understand that?

>> In in what regards?

>> Like how do you understand how he was

the popular kid and you were not?

>> Uh I mean friends. I mean friends and

people knew him. People knew People knew

me because they knew him. Like it was

like, "Oh, you're Skyler's brother."

kind of mentality.

>> Okay.

>> Um and yeah. And so like and I guess

like the idea would be like he'd throw a

party and everybody'd show up and I'd

throw a party and my two best friends

would come.

>> Got it.

>> Um

>> But it also sounds like you said that

you you you've haven't had like

close friends for a long period of time.

>> Yeah. Uh I say I mean I've I feel like I

can make a best friend in an in an area.

I've had a lot of best friends.

Um but when you leave, you know, that

that relationship kind of

um I mean the only way I can keep up for

the most part is like video games.

>> So it sounds like you moved around a

fair amount. And did you said you

studied theater?

>> Yeah. Um I originally uh when I

graduated high school, I was recruited

for basketball um in uh Mont- in

California. Um and while I was doing

basketball, I was shadowing an oral

surgeon. My plan was to go into oral

surgery and and go these routes and then

I took the class load um of like chem

and biology and physiology and anatomy

and uh

all the math. And then they told me they

had to do it for the next 8 years, then

2 years of additional school, then a

4-year residency. And I was like before

I even started seeing a dime.

Um and so I panicked and and and cut

myself off and went into history. Um

and then we moved around a bunch. I was

still in school. My family moved across

the country. Um, I got incredibly

depressed um, and and uh,

made the decision to uh, stop going to

basketball and and stop that career or

stop that path and then travel back to

the other side and follow family cuz

they were my support structure. Um, and

then there we moved to Texas. Um, I I

was still dabbling in theater the whole

time. Um, and I did a 48-hour show here

in Texas and I

>> What does that mean?

>> Um, so the show is written, directed,

and produced all within 48 hours. So

it's like a taught like quick like

>> Hm.

>> written in the first 20 for 24,

rehearsed, gotten through, and then

shown at that night.

>> Wow.

>> Um, so like very intense process. Um,

but I wrote I wrote for one of them and

then performed in another. Um, and I had

four different professors come up to me

and tell me I needed to change my degree

and so I went and had that conversation

with my parents and luckily I would have

graduated the same time. That was kind

of their big thing and that I had a plan

with it.

>> What did they see that made them think

that you had to change your degree?

>> It came naturally, I think in a lot of

different ways than the language and and

the understanding and the questioning.

Um, like a

one of the moments of just talking to

the actors and and kind of having that

interaction and already understanding

the flow of it maybe. Um, and I mean

performance.

>> How does it feel to perform?

>> I I mean I love it to death. Um, I love

the craft especially like the

development of a character. Um, but

that's usually like before the

performance. Um, and for a lot of places

it's an escape. Um, I I was very much

the person who when people were like,

"Oh, it was so much fun performing with

you on stage." I was like, "I wasn't on

stage. It was the the character." Uh,

just cuz it's easier to to tune out the

world and and focus on the characters

problem and situation and and really be

in a different world.

Um

>> So so you really feel like somebody

else? Like that's not you.

>> Yeah, I I try to anyway. I try to I try

to especially with the feeling um

and embodying embodying that.

>> Would you say you become somebody else?

>> Uh, in moments absolutely. Especially at

the peak of it. I definitely

I mean it it's harder to get there

sometimes than other times it is. Um

But I definitely had moments where I've

I've done and done things on stage where

like

I come out of it and I was like, oh,

that I was really in the moment. I it

wasn't me making those decisions. Or at

least it wasn't my

my outside life and my outside worries

and problems and and experiences

informing those decisions. It was the

character that I had built and and what

they were going through that informed

their decisions.

>> Loneliness is at an all-time high.

Sexlessness is at an all-time high.

Relationships are probably in the worst

state [music] they've ever been in the

history of humanity. And that's why I

made Dr. K's Guide to Love, Sex, and

Relationships. Let's talk about who you

should actually date. Falling in love is

sometimes one of the biggest mistakes

[music] that you can make. You know, I

started to do a lot of research about

how to have like really good sex. Visit

healthygamer.gg/guide

to learn more. Good luck out there,

[ __ ] Y'all are going to need

it.

>> Would you say you I mean it's clear that

you love this stuff.

Um would you say that you love

being that person or

how much of it is that you love being

that person in that moment and how much

of it is that you don't want to be you?

>> I I I think in my early stage

performance thing it was definitely the

the escape that I enjoyed.

Um now it's I've I've fallen in love

with the craft um

and and the development of that person

and that and that character and and

those moments.

Um, and so that's where a lot of the joy

is and a lot of the joy of of seeing an

audience react and and feeling and and

feeding off an audience. I think I get

way more enjoyment out of now.

Uh, I was on tour for 2 and 1/2 years

performing and so uh, we would do like

12 to 32 shows in a week um depending

Oh, it was crazy. Our timelines were

insane.

>> 12 to 32 shows in a week?

>> Yeah, 32 was the max that I've ever

done. But we would do So typically the

schedule was Thursday, Friday, Saturday,

Sunday. Two three shows Thursday, three

shows Friday, 12 shows Saturday, 12

shows Sunday.

Um

>> How do you do 12 How long is a show?

>> About an hour. Uh, they were 90-minute

shows. Um, so like the schedule would be

like for a week for the Saturday it'd be

like 12 2 4 6 8 10. And like Okay, so

I've I've been to Ren Fest and they

Okay, I I got it. So just like go and

typically it wouldn't be with Ren Fest.

Um, that was I worked with a company

called Midnight Creative um and we put

on like cocktail experience shows. Like

one was called the Edgar Allan Poe

Speakeasy. Um, so very monologue-based

and like cocktail experience. So a lot

of guest interaction and stuff. Um, but

we do those and that was kind of my

earlier career.

>> Um, so I had two or three different

questions.

>> Yeah.

>> One is you mentioned you got depressed

when you were I think in California and

your family moved across the country.

>> Mhm.

>> Um, and then the other other uh, big

question that I have is um,

you know, what's dating like?

>> Yeah, uh, which one do you want to start

with?

>> do you want to start with?

>> Uh, okay, let's let's I mean, let's

start with the former.

>> nice sigh.

>> Yeah.

>> [laughter]

>> Um

>> Strap in, boys and girls.

>> The depression one. I

I've gotten a lot better at talking

about it.

Um

I I think I've always

struggled with some forms of depression

through my childhood, Uh but I think it

really um

came to the cliff's edge when I left

my like support system, my family and

stuff. I

I left I was 5 hours away for a 5-hour

drive.

And

being that socially awkward kid and

stuff, it was really when I I had to

like start to think about

talking to people and like walking

around campus and having those

interactions. I

I didn't bond well with the other

basketball players and so like I

I grew up as a quote-unquote gentleman.

I like to think my parents raised me

right. And so like locker room talk, I I

was almost appalled by it. And so that

there was a buffer there. I didn't

relate in a lot of different ways. And

so And I guess struggling to make those

friends, I very much became the outcast.

Um which I think added to it.

>> Became the outcast means that you were

just separated or were you

did you feel ostracized?

>> Uh

>> Did they sort of

>> Probably a little bit of A, a little bit

of B. I mean, it's not I wasn't like

invited to things. And if I was invited,

it was out of like obligation.

>> Yeah.

>> Um because I was on the team. And I

wasn't the best player. And so it's not

I didn't have like the

the skill asset part of it. I was

probably one of on the on the lower end

of players.

>> Yeah.

>> Just because

I mean, I wasn't great. I was okay.

Like I can I can still go play a pick-up

ball and be and be good. But compared to

everybody else, you know, everybody was

the top star of their team. But

yeah, I

I wouldn't say intentionally ostracized.

I would just I would say the effort

wasn't put into that that that

relationship. And also I I wasn't

actively

I mean, I I didn't want I didn't feel

accepted. And so I didn't go try to

drive to be accepted, I guess.

Um

>> And And you mentioned that when you were

a kid, you would felt depressed. What is

that What did that feel like?

>> I I I say as a kid, I probably more

alone I mean, I was bullied as as a kid.

Um like I have I have I have remember

like

like crying behind the portables because

like people wouldn't talk to me kind of

thing and and and bullied in those

environments. Um

But I don't think it was I think it

still I definitely had friends still. It

wasn't like I was completely alone.

>> Um What did you get bullied for?

>> See, that's the crazy thing. I I have

memories of being in like the

principal's office because my parents,

of course, would go to the them and I

couldn't say. Uh it was probably it was

more of like It wasn't like a specific

thing. It wasn't because I was tall or

because I I looked funny. It was more of

situational and like and maybe in the

eye of guys of of ostracization. I

wasn't included or I was

it always picked last. Um

kind of kind of idea, but I definitely

remember not feeling welcome. I

definitely There was I I have a memory

of like a

um

uh a new girl showing up and she sat

next to me and we became friends for

like the first day and then the next day

she stopped talking to me like like

totally like wouldn't even look at me

kind of.

>> How do you understand that?

>> I mean, as a kid, I don't think you can.

>> How do you understand that now?

>> Uh I I don't know. I I In my head, I go,

people talked to her and said, "That's

the weird guy."

>> Uh So she sort of figured out

>> Yeah.

>> that you were

a loser.

>> Yeah.

Um

It's an awful way to put it. Um but

yeah. Um I I guess, yeah.

>> How did it feel to hear that when I what

I just said?

>> Uh but you know, that that that's the

past. I mean, I'm not that same The

kid's definitely still there, but I've

definitely grown in tremendous ways, I

think. Like socially, at least I'm I'm

now more [clears throat] capable

and and still see it, but you know, it

still hurts.

Yeah.

>> [clears throat]

>> Yeah.

>> And and so you said that

I mean, so you remember how Do you

remember how old you were?

>> It was elementary.

Um gosh.

I don't know, whatever, maybe whatever

fifth or whatever fifth or fourth.

>> Yeah, so you were like 10, 12, somewhere

in there. Like, so before puberty.

>> Yeah.

>> And and so you it seemed like you were

kind of saying that the depression was a

little bit more prominent maybe when you

were a teenager. I thought I caught you

almost saying that.

>> My junior year I was sitting with my

counselor and like they didn't even

mention college to me at that point. It

wasn't until my senior year where like

I had the epiphany of oh, I need to like

start doing things with my life.

>> Like it was kind of too much, like, oh,

like people have been preparing for

college for 4 years and you're kind of

just like you just realized, oh wait,

I'm supposed to be

>> Yeah.

>> doing something.

>> And and I think the distractions were

leaving. Like, the the the focus was no

longer on school and getting good

grades. It was like, what's next? And

not knowing

and and having the rest of that come

into it.

Um

yeah.

>> Yeah, I mean, it's very scary, right?

When you sort of have that first

realization of you're responsible for

your future.

>> Mhm. You know. I mean, this is still now

today, like

we're we're still worried I'm still

worrying about the future.

>> Are you worrying about the future?

>> Oh, all the time.

>> What do you worry about?

>> Uh I mean, career like is probably my

biggest one right now. Uh I mean, I'm

I'm an actor and a performer, but in

this world it's it's all about who you

know or having those connections or

being the best of the best and I

definitely am not the best of the best.

Um

and there are only so many jobs.

>> Yeah, exactly.

>> [laughter]

>> Um and there are only so many jobs to go

around. Like, um I've been on the job

hunt for the last I got off tour

and don't [clears throat] want to go

back and so I've been

job hunting for like the last 2 months

and so and it's the jobs that are

looking at me are always ones that

aren't in my field. So then then it

falls back into my parents are upset

that I went into performance and theater

and I say upset they're just worried. Um

and and that kind of

idea. They they they like they've been

trying to push me to go do um

>> Get an MBA?

>> Uh

>> [laughter]

>> Um

>> Is is that funny because it's true or

because it's not true? I can't tell.

>> probably not true. Um

>> You never know with corporate dads, you

know.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean he's definitely he's

definitely had that talk where he's like

brought me in and it's like I can get

you a job with this company and da da da

ya da ya da ya da but I I can't sit

behind a desk. I'd be miserable.

Um like I mean especially with like

sales. I've tried doing sales. I hate

it.

>> What do you What do you hate about it?

>> Uh trying to convince somebody I mean

a cold calling

and a rejection I think is probably a

big part of it. I remember we were

selling like masks during COVID at one

point and like calling like hospitals

and stuff and having them like hang up

on me in like the first 30 seconds was

was definitely not a great feeling.

>> So I noticed that you sometimes tell

yourself things in your head about other

people.

>> Mhm.

>> Is that common for you?

>> I mean I

I feel like it's common for everybody. I

think uh

>> It is.

>> Uh yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> I think trying to to read people and and

gauge how people are going. I mean like

I had an interview where the interview

was great all the way up until the very

end and it felt like he was rushing me

out. Like I could see a shift in like

body language and facial expression and

kicked me out of the kicked me out of

the door really quickly, which wasn't

true, you know, I I got a call later

about the job, but at least

>> You didn't You think you were wrong

about that?

>> Uh yeah, I do. Um at least and maybe

maybe it was something where he was just

trying to get me out the door so he can

go into another interview or or or had

something else to do, but I definitely

felt or it felt like I saw something,

but the outcome that I expected from it

was wrong. So I assume I was wrong about

my interpretation.

>> So it sounds like you're quite observant

of other people.

>> Yeah, I try I try to be.

>> You try to be.

>> Yeah, I mean I

going back to being like the quiet kid,

I'm a I'm an observer, I'm a wallflower,

I watch people.

Um I like to imagine that I I'm good at

reading people, but you

I mean

>> When you say you like to imagine that

you're good at reading people, why would

you not be?

>> Um I mean

exposure

>> What do you mean?

>> Uh like like like experience in those

moments.

Um I feel like

in order I mean and everybody's

different. I I'm questioning

having me question myself and now I'm

unsure.

Um

I mean like

people

>> I noticed it doesn't take much to get

you to question yourself.

>> Yeah.

>> So that I think this is the third time

that you've said

like I like I I forget what the other

two are, but I I kind of asked, you

know, help me connect the dots between

being socially anxious and making

friends

>> Mhm.

>> and then you were like, oh maybe I'm

wrong about that.

Is that kind of Do you remember I think

it was

>> Yeah, no, I I do.

>> Yeah, so it was it was interesting cuz I

I I didn't think you were wrong about

that. I think that there's some way to

connect the I think that that's makes

sense actually in a weird way. You know,

even if it's It's just I I feel like

we're missing some piece of the puzzle

in the middle of those two things. I was

a bit surprised by how you responded cuz

you were like

oh, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I don't make

friends easily.

>> Yeah.

>> So, and that's not what I thought.

>> Mhm.

>> Um and I'm just noticing that you're

you're doing that. Is it weird for me to

call attention to it?

>> No, actually I I appreciate you calling

attention to it.

>> You also do this voice thing.

>> What do you mean?

>> Like this voice. Like you just change

your voice. I couldn't tell, maybe

that's just me. But it almost seems like

you go into character for a second.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah.

I mean maybe maybe maybe that's just my

perception.

>> No, I mean I

Huh.

Maybe.

>> Okay.

>> I'm I mean I

>> [snorts]

>> It's it's funny you mention it. I know

my dad is definitely

he calls me out on on some

whenever I I put on a character to make

friends is is how he's described it. Um

my

but I I think maybe it's most mostly

like voice fluctuation, I guess.

>> Yeah, I think it is. That that's exactly

what it is. And and when he when you say

he calls you

Okay, this is going to be like kind of a

silly question, but how does it feel to

be called out?

>> Uh I mean I I

I don't know if I can put a word to the

feeling, um but definitely like

um it does a couple different things.

Like I def- there's probably like some

aspects of being like embarrassed by it.

>> Okay.

>> Um and self-conscious over it. Um but

also like

I

I'm doing it. It's

It's I like to it makes me think about

it. Like

Like I I clock it and go, "Oh, that's

interesting." And and try to break it

down and and try to understand why.

Um

>> I'm I'm [clears throat] noticing there's

a lot going on inside.

>> Yeah.

Yeah, oh, there's

>> Like like you're you're running like you

know, you've got like several programs

open.

>> Yep.

>> Right?

>> That's a great way I I always describe

it it's a it's a train

um and each like it's plowing through

it's like the Kool-Aid Man going through

different rooms. Uh, but each room is a

different like thought process.

Um, and I can control where the train

goes, but I can't stop the train or go

back. And so it's like

constantly analyzing and constantly

moving.

>> I'm confused by the analogy a little

bit. I like your explanation. I'm

confused by the the Kool-Aid Man because

it Does that mean that you're

>> crashing through.

>> Yeah, so I I I got that energy of like

busting down a brick wall and now we're

in this room. And then we're going to

plow into the next room. And so is each

room like what your mind is focused on?

>> Um

>> In that moment and then you like shift

to something else?

>> Yeah, and I think it's the way I like

the the way I like to say the rooms is

cuz all the rooms are still connected to

each other. And so there's still is a

pathway. Um, like I can go back and like

go, "Okay, this is the train of

thought." Um, but it's definitely it's

still abrupt. Um, there's still like an

impact of like a change.

>> you kind of like lurch from like one

thought process to another and now

you're thinking about this and now

you're thinking about this.

>> Yeah, and and some rooms are different

sizes and longer. Like I could be in a

room for

Again, this is an a weird analogy.

Um, but I could be in a room

>> we just did it again. Did you just do it

again where you were like, "Oh." You

were looking at

Did you just judge what you were saying?

>> Maybe.

>> Does that make sense? Like you like you

were you're offering the analogy and

then you judge the analogy and then you

also change your facial expression a

little bit. You're like, "Oh, this is

weird."

You kind of see what I mean?

>> Yeah.

>> Like it happens fast.

Yeah, so you you said that your

your dad, um,

calls you out on becoming a character to

get people to like you?

>> When I greet somebody. I you know, I've

um, I if I I like somebody I try to

especially if I'm conscious of like, oh,

I want this person to have a good

impression of me, I will definitely like

put on

like a

an oh my gosh, it's so good to see you

kind of ideal and it may not be genuine

in those moments

and it's I definitely I don't remember

where I learned it, but like kind of the

the when you see somebody the first

interaction is always important

and like like it's why we love dogs so

much is because when you open the door

they're like, oh my gosh, it's so good

to see you and so it'll make people feel

better when you have that kind of

reaction and I definitely pitch my voice

up and and put on that and I think he

when I do it to him because you know, I

haven't seen him in a minute and you

know, I still want him to like like me.

I'll do it and he calls me out in those

moments. He's like he's like, you don't

feel that way kind of

this is not you you're pitching your

voice. Like he like like you said, he's

like, I see the change cuz cuz I'll go

from I'll like walk out of the room and

see him and try to like brighten up and

kind of have that reaction.

>> And and

how what is that like for you when he

notices that?

>> I mean, I

I'm like, oh, you got me.

I

try to avoid it, I guess. I think

>> It's interesting cuz I think that also

is another

act a little bit.

>> Yeah.

>> Like even the you got me.

>> Yeah.

>> [laughter]

>> It's like how many layers does that down

does he have to go,

you know?

>> I'll just keep adding them.

>> Yeah. And I was also just noticing for a

second, you know, so I'm I'm a

psychiatrist.

>> Mhm.

>> And so we get trained to think in

certain ways.

>> Yeah.

>> And I was like, oh, [ __ ] man. Here I am

older than you

>> Mhm.

>> and then like doing the same [ __ ] that

your dad does.

>> [laughter]

>> It's like

calling attention to

Okay. [snorts]

So so Mhm.

>> [clears throat]

>> Brian, thank you so much for coming

here. I I don't know exactly where this

is going.

>> Uh at some point I think we're going to

talk about dating.

>> Yeah, yeah. [laughter] Well, maybe maybe

now's a good time, but I I feel like

we're I feel

So, sometimes like in my job

I get a sense of something.

>> Mhm.

>> And I don't quite know what it is. It's

almost like in like a black hole. It's

like a negative space where there's

stuff moving around it. And and I'm

going [clears throat] to just start free

associating.

>> Yeah.

>> So, you know, I I'm noticing that

there's

first of all, a lot going on on the

inside.

>> Mhm.

>> And then there's also a very clear

separation between what is going on in

the inside and what is going on in the

outside.

And

I don't quite know how you feel about

this.

Um another thought that just popped into

my head, this is kind of a tangent, is

just

I mean, it sounds like you got to your

job your profession

like not easily, right? So, you you had

a do a fair amount of soul searching, a

fair amount of exploration.

You got recognized for real talent. And

and you love the craft of it. Like you

really found something that you

genuinely enjoy.

>> Mhm.

>> And you've tried to do things that you

genuinely don't.

>> Yeah.

>> And then I was just

it felt heavy listening to

you know, we we talk about these

journeys of like finding your passion.

And you found your passion, but there's

no job security.

>> Yeah.

>> And and that

is awful.

Like and I I know that that's not maybe

the what we're supposed to talk about,

but that was just something that I I

really as I was listening to that, I was

just thinking, man, it's got to suck.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but we can talk about dating.

>> [snorts]

>> That that that's just kind of

>> Either or.

>> Yeah, well, I mean, and if you have any

thoughts or comments about kind of that

quick summary that I had, you you can

share them if you have anything that you

want to add, but

>> Yeah, I mean like the for the idea of it

is like the passion and and the craft

and it being like an art form.

Um I've and I've I tell everybody

who asks me like my especially my

parents they they talk about it. I'll

never give it up. It's one of those

things where even if I have to

be a performer in the street or or doing

community theater that that's where I'll

be. Uh just cuz I I enjoy it and I enjoy

the community so much.

And I unfortunately it's one of those

things where it's like damn I

I would love this as a career. Uh and

love this as a passion and and a pathway

and and being that, but um sometimes you

know you you got to fall into the rat

race and put your head down for a little

bit to be able just to put food on the

table and and pay for pay for a roof

over your head kind of mentality.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but I think not losing it it was what

what my

would be the biggest fear, right? Like

going into this world and and living

paycheck to paycheck and not being able

to

to pursue that passion and everything. I

think that would be the most depressing

and and and catastrophic. Um but like

like I said I'll I'll I'll die on the

streets before before I give up

performance.

>> Yeah, I mean I I was just had a thought

of like

you know someone who's a salesperson is

not chivalrous.

>> Yeah.

>> It I mean it sounds so counter

to what you want to be in this world.

Like the way that you want to show up

and just how grating that is. You know

it's almost like there's a certain

sleaziness to it a certain like

deceptiveness where you're not It's not

like an outright lie, but it's like let

me pay attention to this person and try

to

force them into doing something.

>> Mhm.

>> It seems so

counter to

the ideals that you

appreciate the what you what your real

values are.

>> Yeah.

>> And it was interesting cuz you were

talking about you know I'll I'll I'll

die or I'll be homeless before I give

this up and just how committed you are

to that ideal.

>> Yeah.

I I I mean commitment.

>> Huh?

>> Uh so just commitment is important. It's

another one of those ideals.

>> So let's talk about dating.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah, what what's dating like for you?

>> Gosh, where to begin? Um I didn't start

until

I mean I I kind of dated around in high

school. I dated like maybe two people.

Um but they were they weren't really

dating. Um

and then [clears throat]

I mean like I didn't have my first kiss

until I was like 21.

Uh and really started to develop in it

and I have

for the longest time I dated

um I

>> [clears throat]

>> and I would tell people that I never got

into long-term relationships and I think

there was a

a fear of it. Um my dad at one point I

think saw um

me as a this socially awkward nerdy kid

and I think he saw that I had potential

to bloom and he had a conversation with

me at one point and he's like, "Hey,

there are going to be people who are

interested in you. Don't lock yourself

down while in college because like

you're going to you'll find there'll be

better opportunity." kind of mentality.

He said, "Wait wait 2 years." I think

was the word he used or the timeline he

gave me. Um but so probably until

like the age of like 23, I whenever I

was dating people, I I told them like,

"I'm only dating you. Like I'm not

like I'm not going to put a label on

this." kind of mentality. Um but those

relationships were far and few between

and I definitely didn't commit to a lot

of them and most of them were like

we were in the same class and that's

where like they came from. Um and there

was never a lot of connection

um until probably 23 where I ended up in

a a 2-year-long relationship with a with

a

a good friend and um I mean

>> With a good friend?

>> Yeah, I mean we I mean we started off

dating but we became I mean I I like to

equate it like her and I were like I

mean, I've I've

took this idea of always being a

character like

and thinking about it. She's the first

person that I've ever been real with in

a lot of ways.

Um and like seeing a lot of who I really

was. And so like

that connection. Um and it's and now

it's something like after being

uh after this relationship's ended it's

something that I like crave.

Um and and still can't find.

Um and and just being in this dating

world is like uh

hell in a handbasket.

Um

Uh I was on tour for a while and so

dating was difficult in in that and I've

done dating apps.

Um but those are like in their own way

degrading.

Um

It's you match with like 50 people and

maybe get one date and it it's there's a

lot of rejection in it like I've I don't

know how many times I've deleted it and

redownload redownloaded them. I've tried

a bunch of different ones like Hinge and

Tinder and like ones that are more

tailored to

are supposed to be more tailored to like

uh like nerdy and like quiet people and

and just never I've I've put money into

them like it's just one of those things

where I don't think I've ever been

successful in that environment. Um

And I I I think I I lean towards the

dating app because it's a

uh going back to kind of like it's

expected. Like people are there looking

for it and then people are it's that

icebreaker. It automatically breaks the

ice or gets you into that introduction

phase cuz that's where I struggle in

dating.

Um

I I I'm a like I said, I'm a wallflower.

It's very very difficult for me to go to

a public place and go make that

connection. Um this last year at the

Renaissance Fair like it was it was a

goal uh to like try to try to find

somebody to try to date. Um my buddy who

is the outgoing type Mark love him to

death. He he was the one who would go

break the ice for me and like go hey

that guy

or

>> that like for you?

>> I mean it taught it taught me a lot.

I I've had a lot of

for like the majority of my life I never

thought I was really attractive. Um it's

definitely

>> How do you how do you think about that

now?

>> Uh logically I go I'm I can see that I'm

definitely attractive.

Um I don't know where on the scale but I

definitely know like people look at me

and go that's an attractive person.

Um I don't know like

how it I

>> You said logically what else is there?

>> Uh feeling it?

>> Okay.

>> The confidence.

I don't have I don't have the confidence

in that.

>> I mean

the

>> Do you feel attractive?

>> Um sometimes. And when I'm in the armor

I do.

In the armor I feel great.

Um

yeah.

the

I think confidence in it. Like I don't

have confidence in my looks.

>> how do you feel about yourself?

>> I

it depends on the day.

Um like some days I feel great. Other

days I

don't want to get out of bed like

um

>> That's got to be hard.

>> I

I mean yeah but it's a period

it I think

>> [snorts]

>> um

I mean hard hard is so objective I think

like

>> What do you is so objective?

>> I I maybe objective is the wrong word.

>> You did it again.

>> Yeah.

>> [laughter]

>> See I don't even What is What is it?

Like is it like a You say is it just

like a

>> Well I mean here's here's what I heard

and and what I detected.

So like we have the weather right and

the weather changes.

But like the bed that I sleep in doesn't

change. The roof over my head doesn't

change. My toilet doesn't change, the

toilet paper doesn't change. So even

though the weather changes every day,

I'm still relatively constant.

>> Mhm.

>> And what I heard when you were talking

about that, you know, depends on the

day, it's such a actually powerful

answer.

Um is that you change, right? So so like

it's kind of like the weather is inside

you. And on some days it's like cloudy

and stormy and and there's no protection

against what's inside you.

Um that was sort of the vibe that I got

from what you said, trying to understand

it. Does that map on or

>> Yeah, I mean definitely in ways. I mean

like the weather it's always changing. I

think it I think a lot of it derives in

like feeling.

>> Yeah.

>> Um

>> Can you say more about that?

>> Yeah, I mean

um

good days and bad days. Like uh

Like I said, I've I've struggled

depression for a while. Um it's one of

those things where it like

some days getting out of bed is like the

hardest thing. Um and and feeling uh

defeated and like emotion like it's like

a like a pit, like emotionally drained

or like not wanting to do anything.

Um and some days are better, some days

are worse. And I there are definitely

outside stimulus that like can affect it

and change it. It's very it's very

I

as as much as I don't want to say like I

am

um

bipolar is not the right word.

Um

I my my surroundings affect me a a lot.

I take I take things probably way harder

than I should. I um

>> Like what?

>> Uh

getting rejected in a job interview.

Um like that'll ruin my whole day.

Uh

um

I mean

>> And it shouldn't?

>> I I feel like it shouldn't prevent you

from doing things. I think it can ruin

your day, but it shouldn't stop you from

like going and hanging out with your

friends that day. It shouldn't stop you

from getting the work you needed to get

done that day.

Um

>> Where do you get the idea of what it

should and shouldn't do?

>> Um

people around me, I guess. People who

are successful, my parents, my brother.

Um

I I mean, I and and and maybe it's just

kind of this ideal idealism, like this

is what I would want. Like I wish I

could

I wish I could get out of bed and like

achieve.

Um and like strive and like move to the

next thing and and constantly be

successful, I guess is the right word.

Um

and just get things done. That's my

biggest thing is like

uh [gasps] it

uh

I don't know.

>> [snorts]

>> Yeah.

I don't know where I was going with

that.

>> You have a tissue. [laughter]

I'll grab you a tissue.

>> Appreciate it. Thank you.

>> Weird how it creeps up on you, huh?

>> Yeah.

You know,

well

Thank you.

I was just

>> Feel free to keep the box. That's

>> [laughter]

>> That's ominous.

Get ready to get drained, [ __ ]

>> [laughter]

>> No.

>> Any trash can, too. It's going

pile up everywhere.

>> Yeah, so um what we what we did just

now, we're going to that we just came up

for air, so I made a joke.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. And like that's okay. Like so we

got emotional for a bit. I don't quite

know what was going on there.

I'm glad that you shared that. I I

genuinely am.

Um and like

we we broke it. Does that kind of make

sense? So I'm I'm going to

Um we may go back underwater and we may

hang out there a little bit longer.

>> Uh

but

>> As long as it's not in a submarine

exploring the Titanic, we'll be okay.

>> Yeah.

Um it's not going to be controlled with

a Xbox controller. [laughter]

Um

>> [clears throat]

>> So we know what we're doing.

>> Yeah.

>> [snorts]

>> So I I you know, I had a couple of

thoughts. Not to sucker punch you or

kick you while you're down.

>> Mhm.

>> But um one was

I was noticing as you were talking

how

a knight is the opposite of that.

>> Mhm.

>> [clears throat]

>> You know, like the like a knight doesn't

when they get rejected, they don't

not do anything for the rest of the day.

Like, you know, sort of these ideals of

being devoted to something. And I I I

don't think you quite mentioned it back

then, but I was sort of reading between

the lines cuz I played a little bit of

Kingdom Come: Deliverance and I like

history and

played some Warhammer. Um it you know,

there is a sense of sacrifice for

something greater than yourself. And but

I think the interesting thing reading

between the lines is that

that sacrifice means you're doing

something, right? You don't you don't

sacrifice for the sake of chivalry by

sitting in bed for 12 hours a day.

>> Yeah.

>> A- and um

I'm not sure if those two things are

connected.

It's just kind of where my mind went.

>> Mhm.

>> What [clears throat] was it that got

emotional for you there?

Do you know?

>> Um

I mean, I don't think I could like point

a finger at something specific.

Uh I don't I don't know if I can answer

that right off the top.

>> Yeah, that's okay. And and do you feel

embarrassed at being unable to answer

that?

>> Uh a little bit, but not not not to the

point where it's like devastating.

>> Yeah, I'm with you. So let me offer a

couple things. So

>> [clears throat]

>> one is it's normal to not be able to

answer that.

>> Yeah.

>> So if we look at how we function there

is like a pit down there, right? And and

actually like a lot of our life is about

getting away from that pit.

>> Yeah.

>> So we're actually not looking at it.

We're not examining it. Um I'm sure

there have been times in your life where

you've been in the middle of it and it's

like really overwhelming. I don't know

if overwhelming is the right word.

Overpowering is maybe a word that I

would use, right? Like you can get lost

in it so easily.

And so then what happens is as we

try to move away from it, we don't have

a good resolution of it. So we don't

it's blurry. And so it's completely

normal to not know what's down there.

>> Mhm.

>> Um and and maybe I suspect we'll figure

out we'll get some more resolution into

it if you're okay with that.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh and the cool thing is the more we

understand about it, actually the more

power we get over it.

So there's [clears throat] some really

interesting neuroscience, you know, this

is stuff that Freud sort of figured out

a while ago.

So Freud noticed that

um

language gives us mastery over things

and also language can sometimes be a

substitute for action. So that sounds

kind of weird, but the simple way that

I'd put it is there are people who talk

about doing things and people who do

things.

Those aren't the same.

And one of the things that, you know,

the early psychoanalysts learned was

that

if I can get someone to like

talk about

their their failures, their triumphs in

a really emotionally active way, that

seems to fix the problem.

>> Mhm.

>> So the the example that I would use is,

you know, sometimes I'll have patients

who have lost a loved one without being

able to say goodbye.

>> Yeah.

>> And you want to do all these things with

them, but the really interesting thing

is you can still say goodbye without

them being there.

>> Yeah.

>> And simply saying goodbye for yourself,

like going to their gravesite or

whatever, like that can give you a fair

amount of closure.

>> Mhm.

>> So and then there's another really

simple neuroscience thing about

something is unformed, you don't have

the words for it because your brain has

not understood it.

>> Mhm.

>> And you can't put things into words

until you understand it. Does that kind

of make sense?

>> Yeah, no.

>> So so so as we learn more about it,

we'll maybe put language to it, and as

you put language to it, like it just

gets better.

>> Mhm.

>> Um your power over it increases.

In medicine, we say good diagnosis

precedes good treatment.

>> Mhm.

>> So, if you really [clears throat] want

to fix it, you got to figure out what's

going on.

>> Right.

>> Um

So, I had a couple of I had like three

or four questions for you. Maybe we can

switch gears, and we'll probably get

back there. But, so you said that, you

know, this relationship you had when you

were 23 felt real, like there was a very

like real connection. You could be It

sounds like you could be yourself

instead of like pretending to be someone

else, which I wasn't sure if that

I can attach that second part.

>> Yeah, I I would I I would I wouldn't say

pretending to be somebody else. I just I

I forget the the name of the Japanese

suburb or like where you have three

masks.

>> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Yeah, like where you show everybody,

where you show like close friends and

family, and the one that you don't show

anybody.

Uh I definitely I think I was just be

able I I mean like emotionally opening

up to people, and and um having that

relationship, and not being afraid of

of what they think, and that kind of

stuff, and being able to share, and and

vice versa, to be able to take in and

and listen It's just I mean, to be real,

I think, is the best way. And be

intimate, and and and not like in a

physical way, but more just emotional in

in that relationship. Um and that trust,

and and and that that energy.

Um

>> What makes it hard for you to be real

with other people?

>> I

I

I I mean like ultimately judgment, I

think. I

I mean, I want to be liked by everybody.

Um

I think there's like a fear of

of not being acceptable.

Um

Not being wanted, I think maybe maybe

another one.

Um

>> Got a lot of language for this.

>> Yeah.

>> [laughter]

>> Hey. Start throwing Give you a bunch of

them.

>> [clears throat]

>> Um but like I

I I it's something that I've thought

about a lot.

>> Yeah, I can tell.

>> Uh

like I said, I I can logically think

about a lot of things. It's It's I've

I've done a little bit of therapy in the

past, but I mean, I've always been

against it because the questions they're

asking me are questions I ask myself.

Um, and and and a lot of the times like

even opening up to a therapist, even

though that like there's that there's

supposed to be that safety um, is

difficult. Um, but I can do that with

myself. Like I can have that

conversation, which may not be positive

uh a positive outcome, but um

>> You said there's supposed to be safety.

>> Yeah, I mean, I feel like

the the idea of like a therapist is

at least how we imagine them is that

you're supposed to go into a place where

you can have that conversation and be

able to open up and and not fear

the the judgment or um

>> [clears throat]

>> the like

it's the same it's like why you wouldn't

go to your friend to have that

conversation. You or or you wouldn't go

to a close

>> What are you afraid that they're going

to see?

>> Uh

the the the therapist or the

the the family members?

>> Um, the problems, the um

I mean, like

>> What problems would they see?

>> Uh

I mean, like

the like the the depression and like the

the

the

>> [sighs and gasps]

>> I Again, I don't know if I can throw

like words word word specific words at

it.

>> Yeah, the the unknown, the the uh

I mean

Yeah.

>> Brian, it's Brian, right?

>> Yeah.

No, it's Philip.

>> [laughter]

>> So, I get the sense

that

there is something that you think that

there's something really

bad

that some people may see.

>> Mhm.

>> And I'm sort of going back to this like

you know, when I'm in fifth grade and

this girl sits next to me and she talks

to me for 1 day and then she like very

and because you're observant, right?

Like and so you notice like oh, this is

a shift like she's not even making eye

contact. She's like turning away. She's

like like straight down like she's she's

trying very hard to not engage with you

at all. Yeah. She's not even

she's not calling you

bad things. So she's not being

aggressive. It is like it in a weird way

I think like even if there's aggression

like that feels bad, but there's some

there's some kind of connection.

>> Mhm.

>> Whereas it really seems like she's

trying really hard to pretend that you

don't even exist anymore. That that

there's something about you that she

just doesn't even want to

doesn't even want to make fun of, you

know?

And and that

there's something and and I have to

think about sort of like that thing and

I I could see you're getting emotional,

right? [laughter]

But but really I mean I I think you get

the sense that there is something that

is kind of like really black. Like it

feels kind of like

tar and ugly and smelly and and

something that, you know, you just don't

want people to see.

>> Mhm.

>> Um even with therapists, I I wonder if

you think that even if they were to see

it, like what are they going to do about

it?

>> Yeah.

>> Um it feels really unfixable,

unsolvable.

Um and you know, it kind of like comes

and goes, right? So like depending on

the day, the sun is out or this this

cloud is obscuring it.

So [clears throat] I'm I'm getting a lot

of sense of of

I I powerlessness isn't the right word.

um cuz I I don't think you feel

powerless. I think you you actually are

like quite resilient, quite adaptive.

You really lifted yourself up, and I get

the sense that you can really take pride

in that.

Um but it it's almost like

you know, the moon shows up 13 days of

the lunar cycle, and on the 14th day,

there's nothing.

>> Yeah.

>> I I I get a sense of

random awfulness that pops up that you

can sort of do nothing about. And the

other 13 days you can kind of manage,

but every once in a while this thing

inside you comes up.

Um how does that map on to what you

feel?

>> I mean, it feels kind of accurate. I

definitely think it's

I mean, whatever it is, um is

it it can be perpetual, I think, or at

least affecting the feeling of like

it can trigger, I think. Maybe maybe the

right word.

>> Ah.

>> Uh

>> So, it gets turned on and off?

>> Yeah. I I think I it can get turned on,

and maybe it's there, and then it'll

there's like an aspect to that lingers.

Cuz I I I know like with the

like when I'm struggling with

depression, um that it

like it can it can last more than those

first 12 hours, or however it is.

Um but it definitely, yeah.

>> Weeks or months?

>> Um

I yeah, I mean, it's definitely weeks. I

don't think

I think I've been able to usually crawl

out before.

Um but I

I I I I try not to let myself ever get

bad. I've got I've gotten to the point

where where it's gotten life-threatening

at one point in my life.

Um and I again, very blessed to have the

support system I did and my family.

>> That's really important.

>> Yeah, I I mean, like

God forbid if you know, if it wasn't if

I didn't have my mom on my cell phone

um in contacts and her sending a text at

the right time. Um

but like

yeah, I mean, so like I I can

consciously know where the line is. Um

and then start to make progress in the

other direction.

>> Yeah, so I mean that that's what I I I

really do get a sense of

actually power from you.

Uh you know, that that you're kind of

there's a big dragon to slay, but like

you're a pretty badass knight. You know,

and like that maybe that's that that's

making me feel emotional actually. I

It's weird. Now I'm

like it's sort of like this it is like

this large beast. I'm realizing now that

the black pit isn't actually the right

imagery for me. I don't know why I'm

getting emotional. It's weird. But like,

you know, that there's this big thing

and that you have actually stood up to

it.

Um and it's kind of there. It's more

persistent. Um you know, and and you've

got your band of merry warriors, which

is kind of what

>> takes.

>> Yeah.

>> Um

I'm surprised by the emotion I'm feeling

right now, but I I just got this very

clear image of like you standing in

armor like facing down a dragon that's

like really scary and is potentially

lethal.

>> Yeah.

>> Um

>> [snorts]

>> I'm going to need a second.

>> [laughter]

>> Do you Do you want another one?

>> Yeah.

Uh and and I you know, I that makes me

wonder. Like so the the psychiatrist in

me makes me wonder about the imagery and

how much you're into knights and [ __ ]

like that.

>> No, it's

>> Uh but

>> really good.

>> Um

but going back to dating

>> Yeah.

>> what we're supposed to be talking about.

>> [laughter]

>> So So I mean

>> [clears throat]