We've done deep dive research studies on

how can we help everyone to become more

successful daters.

So, what makes daters successful?

So, the faster that you can

the faster you're going to find someone

who's like, yes, this is the type of

person that I want to be with.

Justin McLeod, the founder and CEO of

the fastest growing dating app, Hinge.

I built Hinge because I wanted a

girlfriend, but we had to suffer through

a lot of failure to finally get to

success. Why does the world need another

dating app?

I think it just needs one really that

works well.

I'm going to be completely honest. Much

of the reason why I never used dating

apps is I had no success. So, if I

wanted to be the world's worst dating

app user, what would I have to do? A lot

of filtered photos with you in

sunglasses or hanging out with a lot of

friends, one-word answers to your

prompts, just like everyone. And what

about serial daters?

Some of us have models in our head that

are exceedingly narrow. They have to be

over 6 ft and need to work in this type

of job. And so, you go out and you're

just looking for some reason to say no

because it doesn't fit your model. Give

people more of a chance.

AI, the conversation around AI and

relationships has always been quite

pessimistic. Sex robots and stuff.

Yeah, that's certainly not going to be

what Hinge is working on.

The bigger leap though is to move much

closer to a matchmaker model and setting

up dates with a much higher likelihood

of success. It's happening already. It

used to take a thousand swipes in order

to get on a date and now about 50 likes.

Have you seen any changes in the dating

culture? Yeah, in order to get on a

date, people need to know this. So,

Quick one. This is really, really

fascinating to me. On the back end of

our YouTube channel, it says that 69.9%

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subscribe button? Thank you so much and

I will repay that gesture by making sure

that everything we do here gets better

and better and better and better. That

is a promise I'm willing to make you. Do

we have a deal?

Justin,

what is your job title?

And

founder and CEO of Hinge. And to

quantify what Hinge is and the impact it

has on the world, how many people use it

as a product, its reach, can you give me

some color towards that? Uh, like I can

say that today we're setting up a date

about every 2 seconds. So, every other

second someone's going on a date because

of Hinge.

Um, we've created

millions of relationships and it's I'd

say marriages at this point. The scale

is far beyond I think what I imagined

when I when I started this thing.

I probably need to understand you a

little bit better because it's so

abundantly clear from all the CEOs that

I've interviewed that

there's often a series of catalyst

moments that send them on the path

indirectly. I mean, it's like the first

domino that falls in their life that

brings them to be sat here today for for

us to be talking about it. What are

those first dominoes in your life that

fell?

I I don't I think there are a number of

them that probably like ended up

defining my my life. I was an only

child. Um, had a entrepreneur father who

had a ran a small business. And um, and

my mom worked for my dad.

I was sort of naturally as a kid good at

math. I was good at computer science.

Uh, I would spend my summers at nerd

camp

uh, going and learning how to like code

as a kid. And I will say addiction is

the last piece cuz I I wanted I like was

desperate to be cool, was desperate to

fit in.

And that actually became like a huge

piece of it as well for me. In your

first year of university, you went to

see a drug and alcohol counselor. Is

that correct? I did. So, when I went to

college, you know, it was I would say

the overachieving part of me started to

slip away and I just kind of just

doubled down on the uh, drinking and

drugs and partying. My freshman year, at

the end of my freshman year, I thought

to myself like, gosh, you know, like I

haven't been to bed sober since school

began. Like not one single night. And

maybe I have a problem. Like maybe

something's going on here. So, I I

voluntarily went in to see this drug and

alcohol counselor. It's like very sweet

woman named Jane.

And she listened to me empathetically

and heard me out and she was like,

Justin, you know, I I think that you

probably have a pretty serious problem

with drugs and alcohol. I think that you

should definitely keep coming back and

seeing me and I think you should stop.

And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

whoa. Like that's that was like, what

are you talking about? I'm like a

19-year-old kid. So, I just kind of

ignored that and went about the the

partying. Um, but I had some inkling at

that point that like probably something

was not good.

You had to rehab eventually.

I did. I had to spend my summer in rehab

after my freshman year in order to even

come back to school because I had I

would I'd still get in trouble a lot at

like with campus safety or whatever,

getting caught drinking or

uh, and I'd been written up so many

times that I actually got referred back

to that same drug and alcohol counselor

for an assessment. She's like, well,

I've already actually assessed this kid.

He's clearly has a problem. So, I had to

spend my summer in rehab in order to

even come back my sophomore year. So

many people I've spoken to had an

alcohol addiction at some point in their

life. Speak about the 12-step program

and the role that that played in them

turning their lives around.

Did you When did did you learn about the

12-step program at all and did it help?

I did and I would occasionally go to

meetings and they were like

people from the town. Like no one no no

one from like college was going to

these. I was literally only college

student. I did stop drinking the the and

the day that I graduated from college.

And um, and 12-step programs was like a

a huge piece of of my recovery after

that time. Why that day?

I woke up that morning

after being out at a party the night

before. Was graduating that day. I'd

gotten a okay job in Washington D.C.

where I was going to move in the in once

school ended.

But I just remember thinking to myself

like

that the steering wheel of my life was

broken. That's kind of how I and I think

that gets back to your sort of

enslavement idea or that you just don't

have control anymore. Like I envisioned

my life going like this direction. Like

I I wanted to have a big career. I

wanted to go make an impact in the

world. I wanted to have like deep

friendships. I wanted all these things

and yet every day it was like one more

drink. Right? One more drug and tomorrow

I'll like start putting my life

together. And I've been telling myself

that for years at that point. And I

remember thinking to myself like, I

don't know what the point of living is

if if like without drinking.

But I'm going to try to find out.

And it was just like, how much longer am

I going to allow this to continue to to

go? Like I I

I didn't get the job that I wanted,

right? I wanted I wanted to go work at a

you know, Goldman Sachs in banking,

which is the and that's just like what

the I was a mathematical economics major

and that's what all like the top math

econ majors went and did.

And

and I didn't I didn't get the job. I got

some like, you know, decent job at some

management consulting firm that no one's

ever heard of in Washington D.C.

And uh, I'd lost the girl, which we

haven't talked about Kate yet, but my I

had a girlfriend all through college and

I'd like lost her. It's just It's just

my life was like not headed in a good

direction. It was so clear and I just

viewed that as a moment to like change

it. When did you meet Kate?

I met Kate the

basically like literally the day I got

out of rehab. I like got out of rehab at

8:00 p.m. one night

in Louisville, Kentucky. I drove all

night back to school. And

uh, and I woke up the next day and

decided to celebrate getting out of

rehab by going out and partying and

drinking. And

uh, Kate found me passed out in a

stairwell, like on the landing of a

stairwell. Uh, the first day of my

sophomore year. It was her first day of

school, first

day of her freshman year.

Later in that year, we had a class

together. We started sitting together.

We started getting to know each other

and we just had this incredible like

magnetic connection.

When you reflect on meeting her and

how you felt and all of those things. I

mean, you now uh, working in the

industry.

When you look back, is there anything

that is consistent with, you know, all

the people that Hinge has brought

together today that happened in that

moment? Cuz, you know, you see on the

movies they say you'll feel this thing

in your belly and there'll be

butterflies and there'll be crazy, you

know, all this kind of stuff.

What was your experience like? Did you

have butterflies? Did you know she would

they were the one?

Um,

I think I

I'm not sure it was like the moment I

saw Kate like I knew she was the one,

but I think the

our our like relationship really started

to build as we got to know each other

better. Um, so, it wasn't for me like

one of those like instantaneous like

this person is the person.

It just grew really, really quickly as

we got to know each other better.

Whether that spark is a good thing or a

bad thing, I think has been debated. I

know you had Logan, our our relationship

scientist on um, from Hinge and I think

the spark can sort of like burn out and

what you're looking for is really like a

nice slow burn. Within 2 years you had

broken up.

Uh, we'd broken up like we were on and

off

you know, six or seven times I think

during college. And then finally by the

end of college we'd really like gone our

separate ways. Once I gotten sober, um,

I would think about reaching back out to

her all the time. But I just wouldn't

cuz I had enough sense to realize that

like I had probably like messed up this

girl's life enough and um, it just like

wasn't healthy and so I would

I remember being like a year two years

sober, and I would like

you know, dial her number on my phone,

and I would just like stare at it,

and then I would just like hit the end

button, and

I just didn't feel

I just didn't feel like I was good for

her, and I and I just needed to stay

away.

And when you ultimately end up reaching

out to her when she's living in London

and working in finance?

Yeah, so I I

4 years in,

I'm sober, I'm at business school, and I

I

finally I'm like, okay, I'm going to

like write her a letter, like an apology

letter,

um

and see if we can reconnect, and I I

wrote her this letter, and she was

living in she'd moved to London at that

point.

And she called me back the next day, and

she was with someone at the time,

and she's like, well, I'm going to be

home for Christmas time, so maybe I can

see you at Christmas time.

And

then she called me back the next day,

and she's like, listen, I just if I see

you, I don't know what's going to

happen, and

I just

uh

I have a stable life now, I have a

partner, we just bought a flat, like I

just can't. And so I was just totally

heartbroken, cuz I really thought in the

back of my mind like someday we'd I just

felt like we were like meant to be

together, and I thought like one day

we're we're going to end up back

together, and I think in that moment I

realized like, wow, I've really messed

this up, like there's no there's no

going back.

You were at Harvard at the time. Yeah.

You're single. Mhm.

You're sober.

Which makes it hard to meet people, I

guess.

Precisely. I mean, that's the thing is I

is I

um both it was very special with her,

and also I really had trouble meeting

other other people. Like I really relied

on drugs and alcohol as a crutch, and

then when I graduated, I threw myself

into work, and then I but then I arrive

at business school, where I think by the

way we're there to like study business,

but it's like a huge party atmosphere,

and like everyone connects around

drinking and and partying, and I just

couldn't

it was like

just too hard for me to be around any of

that.

Also hard for me to meet new people. I

mean, that's the case for so many of us

today. So many people who much of the

reason it feels like they continue to

drink and do those things which they

don't necessarily love is because it's

almost unavoidable if you want to it

seems unavoidable if you want to

socialize and be

not be perceived as a weirdo.

Yeah, and just the whole culture and the

whole like the it was just all revolved

around drinking. So it's it was just

constantly saying no, constantly saying,

no, thanks, I don't drink, like

Is this at all correlated? You know,

you're in that situation where you're

you've given up drinking, you're a bit

heartbroken. Does this also

explain why you were so compelled to do

something in the dating space?

There was a business plan like a

business school like

business plan competition, and so I was

working on like a few ideas for that.

And nothing really hit. Like I was

trying to work on I had like various

little silly ideas, and I tried to work

on them, but it always just felt like

homework, and I just like wasn't getting

much traction.

And this was kind of shortly after

everything had happened with Kate, and

she'd, you know, told me in so many

words that like

it was time to move on.

And

there was this last chance dance party

happening at at Harvard, where people

were going to like list all their

crushes, and then if two people like

listed each other, they would like let

you know right before the dance. So this

was like a moment of like, okay, like

we're heading towards the end of school.

I think it was around Valentine's Day,

and so this is like your last chance

your second year. If there's anyone that

you had a crush on, this is like your

moment to find out.

I was actually like pretty excited about

this, cuz like I again I was like so

awkward. Like I didn't know how to like

connect with people or meet new people.

I just like I didn't know how to do that

without the crutch of of alcohol and

drugs, and I was walking to class one

day with the with the um student body

president, this guy Brett,

and he was like, yeah, we actually

decided to scrap the whole thing. It was

just too complicated. Like a thousand

people all listing each other. Like how

are we going to manage all the

you know, like too hard. Like we just

scrapped that whole thing.

I I I went to class, I started sitting

there, I started thinking, and I was

like,

I bet I could just like build this

really quick on Facebook. Like I I I

used to code. I like knew how these kind

of things got worked, and Facebook had

recently opened up their API for canvas

apps like FarmVille and things like

that. I was like, you could just like go

through and just check your friends that

you liked, and you can just build

something like this really quick on

Facebook. So I enlisted a friend, um

her her name is Francis, and we got

together, and we built this thing, um

where people could like list their

crushes on Facebook, and it would tell

you if two people matched, and we

launched it,

and it made a bunch of matches, and it

was fun, and people had like a good

time, but

then

it was

you know, you find out if you have a

crush, you either do or you don't, and

then everyone's done with it.

But the idea then started to to like

percolate in my mind like, what if you

could actually introduce people to their

friends of friends? Because at the time

there was there were online dating

sites, but no one my age used them.

There was a lot of stigma around it, cuz

it was like a long arduous process you

did on desktop computers, you answered

like deep questions about yourself, you

paid a lot of money usually to use them.

And the idea of like creating something

like really simple and easy that would

just connect you to friends of friends

suddenly just like popped in my mind,

and I don't know how to describe it. I

just like I was so excited about this

idea. I was just convinced this is going

to be the future of how people were

going to date, and I like couldn't stop

working on it. And to set the scene

there a little bit, this is a time which

is hard to remember where there's like

OKCupid and match.com, but there's not

like mobile dating apps. Right. That's

exactly right. There were no nothing was

mobile, and nothing no one really used

it, or if you used it, you didn't really

talk about it. Like people my age just

like didn't use or talk about online

dating services. That was just not a

thing. The term dating app was not even

a term yet.

Do you think that's it? Cuz I so many

people

ask me the question about how to know

which idea to pursue.

Many entrepreneur types, creatives have

lots of ideas. They have a shelf full of

them. Yeah.

Um

how do we know which one is the one

worth pursuing?

I I can only speak to my experience.

Like I don't know what the right what

the right answer is, but I will say that

when I was I had other ideas that were

interesting to me like intellectually.

Like, yeah, like this is a good idea, um

but it just didn't hit me in my heart,

and I would I would like try to work on

it, but like I said, it felt like it

felt like doing homework. Like, okay,

I'll like force myself to work on this,

but it just wasn't

I don't know. And then when the idea for

Hinge hit me,

I don't I just don't know how to

describe it except to say like it it was

like it like infected me, and this this

this service this app was like going to

come out of me no no matter what, and

it's like I like was almost possessed to

have to work on it.

But I think there was a the the magic of

me being open and like thinking about

ideas and trying to work on ideas, and

then I was like open, and then when the

right idea hit,

it almost didn't even feel like a

choice. Like I just had to work on this.

So many people have the idea, so many

people feel infected by their belief in

that idea, but then

the vast majority will

be

incarcerated by fear and

you know, loads of naysayers telling

them, you can't make an a dating app.

What the hell is that?

Yeah.

Which is exactly the feedback that I

got, by the way. Like I entered it in

the business plan competition. We were,

you know, we didn't place at all. We

were told like this is a horrible idea.

I wrote a paper on it for our class.

They told me it was a horrible idea. I

um I had friends telling me it was a

horrible idea.

I would later try to raise money, and

VCs would tell me it was a horrible like

everyone was like there was very little

positive feedback I was getting on the

idea for Hinge.

I just had this

thesis that if you could make a a dating

service that was stigma-free, if you

could make something that was really fun

and easy and lightweight, then young

people would use it. I would I would I'd

always hear that the dating market is

full, it's saturated. This is what VCs

would tell me when I would try to raise

money. They'd be like, match.com owns

this market, you'll never be able to

beat them.

And I remember thinking to myself like,

it's not how could you say a market is

saturated? Like I don't I almost know no

one who uses dating services. Like it's

not saturated. You just have to fix the

problem why people don't use it, and

people don't use it because it it has

stigma to it. We we can't remember that.

Yeah. This this generation can't

remember that there was a stigma around

dating on the internet. In fact, what's

so funny is as you said the word stigma,

I said to myself, what stigma? And I

thought and then I thought back to my

childhood, and and I remember the

what I thought of people that used

match.com. Yeah.

Lonely weirdos.

Totally. And that was definitely that

was that's how people

that's how people thought about it in

2011. It was just not

you know, the iPhone had just come out a

few years ago. The App Store was

relatively new. Yeah, and people did not

meet strangers on the internet to go

date. That was just weird. So when did

it go from

Facebook to an app?

Uh so we started working on it. It was

originally this yeah, Facebook canvas

app, and

that was 2011 to 2012, and um

but it was really having trouble

getting people to adopt this thing. I

was not a good product designer, not a

good brand. It was originally called

Secret Agent Cupid. It would uh

introduce you to friends of friends,

but it was really a complex

user interface. You'd like answer

questions about your friends. There were

like little rankings. Like it was try to

be really social and like show you which

of your friends are most in demand. It

had like all these different components

to it. It was like way overcomplicated.

People would come in, and they like

wouldn't understand like, why am I

answering questions about my friends?

Like, what's this? I'm here to date.

Around the end of 2012, I'd raised a

little bit of money from just like

angels and friends and family, like

$100,000 or so.

We're running out of money, not making a

lot of progress. I made the call around

Thanksgiving. I got together with my

team and I was like, we just need to

start over from scratch. Let's throw

this whole thing out. Mobile is the

future.

That's more things are trying to come

out on the App Store around this time.

So, let's redesign it for mobile and

let's make it just like a dead simple.

We'll just you connect your Facebook

account, we'll show you a photo, you

know, their age, like one or two lines

about them, and then you just say yes or

no, are you interested in this person?

We had literally like 2 and 1/2 months

left of cash to like tear everything

down, rebuild it from scratch, and then

take our remaining money and throw a

giant launch party in Washington D.C.

With your remaining money? Yeah, that's

it. Literally took our last $25,000 and

threw a giant open bar party in D.C. And

you had to download the app to get in.

We had submitted our app to the App

Store

with what we thought was like plenty of

time, about 2 weeks. Um, and App Store

review times were typically like just a

couple days at that point.

And then a few days go by, we don't hear

anything back. A week goes by, we still

haven't heard anything back.

Uh, I started trying to reach out to

like the head of the App Store, but no

one who they don't care I'm like some

random kid like with a app idea.

No one would return my calls.

It is now the night before the launch

party and we still have no we don't have

actually have an app to launch. So, I

like literally have like my last

$25,000 spent on this launch party with

no app. I remember being

literally like sitting we had a little

co-working space and that night I was

just like sitting on the floor like

covered up my head in the in my jacket

and just crying on the floor thinking

like, wow, these last 2 years have been

for like nothing. I've worked so hard

and I'm going to launch an app tomorrow

there's no App Store like there's 2,000

people are coming and there's no app.

And then I went home that night and um,

woke up the next morning and somehow

miraculously

uh, the app had been approved in the App

Store.

And so, we had the party that night.

2,500 people came. They all saw each

other using the app.

The next day people we made more matches

than we'd made in the entire history of

the app up until that point.

And they had to download it to get in.

They had to download it to get in.

And that helped overcome I think you had

to like jump-start the stigma cuz we had

a lot of like the very like the cool

people in the social scene in Washington

D.C. coming and all downloading it in

front of each other and talking about

it. And so, the fact that it was like

really really dead simple and the fact

that everyone saw each other using it, I

think like started to like jump-start

and get over that stigma problem. And

then we had like 400 people log in the

next day and we're like, okay, wow, if

you 400 people on their own came in. I

mean, up until that point it was such a

like literally a trickle of users coming

into our like little app. Like I would

I'd I remember I would like sit there

and like look at the logs and people

like a user would come in and like, oh,

okay, like a there's a user using the

app. And then we're like, okay, then he

just clicked this button and like then

he like passed and then and then he

would leave and I'm like, okay, wait for

the next user to come in like sitting

just like watching the logs.

So, hundreds of people coming the next

day,

few hundred more the next day, and then

it just started to like build and build

and build after that.

Was it like a snowball effect?

Yeah, it really was. And and once once

we'd hit it with the with the product,

it started to spread through word of

mouth.

Then people in D.C. started to tell

their friends in New York and then we

started to build up a waitlist there and

then people in New York told their

friends in San Francisco and they would

like build the waitlist up there.

And then we would start opening cities

one at a time once we felt like we had

enough liquidity. And how would you open

those cities? Was it the same

We'd throw another launch party. Like

no, literally my life was just like

throwing launch parties in cities like

we would we would, you know, from Boston

and San Francisco and um, New York and

L.A. We were just like

I remember 2012 well and there was

that was kind of the golden age of

apps in a way. I remember cuz we worked

a lot quite a lot on um,

on apps back then and uh,

there wasn't many apps. The App Store

was was grow felt like it was growing

very quickly. I was, you know, people

were discovering lots of new apps all

the time. Feel like people are

discovering less apps at the moment. I

don't know if that's true or not, but it

just felt like that was kind of the app

boom moment. So, things like a launch

party I can you know, I can see how

those things would work then, but I I

question whether people listening to

this right now that have got an app and

they've got $25,000 for a launch party

and like that's that's what solves all

their problems. Probably not. Yeah.

So interesting. And then Tinder around

that time starts to emerge a bit bit

foot further on, right?

Yeah, right about that time. So, right

around the time we threw that launch

party, I think Tinder had launched just

a couple months prior out in L.A. So,

almost the exact same time. We had a

very similar model.

They took off hugely

and we started to grow as well. In fact,

their growth helped our growth because

it would like the category was emerging

and now people were like um, seeing

Tinder and Tinder was a

was an app that was all about location

and ours was all about friends of

friends. And that was really the the

main difference.

But, as a result, people viewed Hinge as

like this sort of like

more serious intent dating app because

it was friends of friends, people you

meet at a house party or dinner or

wedding, whereas like the other one was

a little bit more of like a casual

reputation and like meeting at a club.

And as a result, all of a sudden the VCs

who were telling me there's no way this

market's totally saturated, now I was no

longer begging for money. I was like

turning away. There were people were

trying to send like like trying to raise

around at that point. Um, we went from

like

you know, begging for scraps to like

raising almost a $20 million round where

I was turning away money because I just

couldn't take anymore. So, it really

that changed the game.

And was it a straight line up from

there? Huh. Uh, no, definitely not.

So, we had some good success in 2013,

2014.

2015 growth started to level out. Um,

Tinder had definitely gotten successful.

Beat us at the game of like overcoming

stigma. Like

that it was cool to use. It was cool it

was it was quick. It was easy. It was

fun.

Ours was just like

a Tinder

copy that was friends of friends, but we

weren't we were like the growth just

like wasn't there and um, and more

importantly though,

around that time there was an article

that came out in Vanity Fair called like

the dawn of the dating apocalypse. It

was all about how dating apps had

destroyed dating culture and romance and

and Hinge was featured like

pretty heavily in that article.

I always remember just thinking like,

gosh, this is not what I

like I built this because I like wanted

a girlfriend. Like this is not what I

what I wanted to build from a like a

values perspective.

I I remember going out with my

my head of marketing at that time, her

name was Katie, and I was I was about to

head home for Thanksgiving and we sat at

a little cafe in New York and

I I was just telling her like, gosh, I I

like

I wish I could just start over from

scratch. Like this is not the company I

want to build. This is not what I want

to do. And she's like, well, I mean,

you're the CEO. Like what's stopping

you?

I went home and I thought about that

and, you know,

nothing was stop like what was stopping

me? We just raised a big round. We had

resources. And so,

uh, I decided to reboot the company

again. So, we first reboot 2012. Uh,

this reboot let go of half the company

and then threw out the old code base and

built something new from scratch that

would be about

really helping people who wanted to find

their person with like a long-term

relationship brand

and totally changed the user interface

and the profiles and the whole flow and

design it for people who actually like

really want to find their person.

If you hadn't have had that interview

with Deborah from cafe.com Mhm. before,

right? Yeah.

Do you think you would have made that

decision? Tell me about that interview

with Deborah from cafe.com and how

changed changed things for you. So, in

2014,

someone reached out to me, her name was

Deborah, and she had downloaded Hinge.

She lived in New York.

And the very first person that she that

like we suggested to her, she liked and

matched with and then fallen in love

with. And so, she'd reached out and was

like, how did you like I want to learn

more about you, want to learn about your

company. We were just, you know, we were

getting popular in New York, but not

hugely popular.

So, we met up for an interview one day

in Madison Square Park near my office

and

um,

and I you know, I didn't have my I like

it was dumb luck. Like I don't know the

like the first person that happened to

show up on her app. Like we didn't we

didn't

it was just we were lucky. But,

as we chatted, um, you know, kind of a

standard interview, at the very end of

the interview, we were getting up and

she's like, you know, one last question,

have you ever been in love? And I was

like, well,

once a long time ago, but I, you know, I

just didn't realize it until it was too

late.

And Deborah turns off the tape recorder

and she's like, listen, I have to tell

you a story.

And she tells me

the story of of how actually she sort of

had this misconnection moment. She

wasn't with someone that she had met

much younger and they had found each

other all these years later and realized

they should have been together.

And she was like,

you know,

you don't have to make the same mistake

I did. Like you can still be with the

one. You just have to do something

dramatic. You have to just go over there

and like pour your heart out and like

put yourself on the line.

And I was like, listen, lady, like

you know, it's been almost 8 years since

I've even seen her. It's it's kind of

over. There's there's no way.

That said, I was about to head over to

the um,

launch party for Hinge in London

and I thought,

okay, like

I'll just shoot her one last note. And

so, I reached out to her and I said,

hey, I'm going to be in London.

Would love 15 minutes just say hi and

goodbye. It's just weird to think that

we're never going to see each other

again.

And she wrote back and she was like,

uh for the first time, so and and now

another 4 years. And

uh

she was like, "Listen, I don't live in

London anymore. I live in Switzerland,

but

um I'll be around this weekend and um

happy to hop on the phone."

So, I

like got that message. I went to the

airport. I got the I got a ticket to

Switzerland. I got on a plane to Zurich.

And um

and she

reached out the next day. She's like,

"Hey, I'm around if you want to chat."

And I'm like, "Great, cuz I'm going

through customs in Zurich right now."

And she agreed to meet me at a little

cafe.

And uh we sat down with each other. And

I I think at that time I

you know, part of me thought like I

really want the girl back. Like this is

it. And part of me thought like

it's been 8 years. Like I've changed so

much as a person. Like I'm sober now.

I'm like running this company. Like

she's

with someone else now. And by the way,

it was literally like a month away from

getting married at that point. She was

She had a fiance. She had a fiance,

yeah. And and to be married in a month.

Like

uh so

like on the verge of getting married.

So, I thought we'd see each other and

kind of just like

laugh it off and glad we saw each other

and and you know, I just did I honestly

didn't know what was going to happen. It

was like it felt

but there was this hope in me that like,

"Wow, maybe she really is the one. Maybe

we'll like realize it." And we sat down

at this little cafe and um

and it was just like

uh

I think we both felt like an incredible

amount of

that connection that we'd always had.

And we sat and we we talked for like 7

or 8 straight hours in this cafe. Never

even got up to get a coffee. And

at the end of that conversation she's

like,

"I think I'm calling off the wedding."

And um

And so

uh about a week later she moved out of

Zurich and moved from

um back into back to New York into my

like 300-sq-ft apartment in the West

Village.

And

and my

and this is a long way of getting back

to your question, which is like how does

this relate to Hinge and would I have

done the reboot? Because

here I am and I've like gotten

the person. Like this is the person that

I've always want like wanted. Like I

finally got her back. And it was totally

amazing for

like a month or 2 or 3 months maybe max.

And then the honeymoon period ended and

we're two people living in this little

tiny apartment together in New York who

haven't seen each other in 8 years.

And we've got to like start figuring

each other out. And it wasn't perfect.

And

the part of me like I would have if I

were just dating this person, I would

have run, right? I would have like cut

it off and been like, "Okay, like not

the right person. Like

it's not it's not perfect like I

imagined it was going to be." But she'd

called off this life. She like cut She

you know, she'd left a her person. She'd

left um

her whole existence over there. So, I

couldn't just like break up with her.

And that's when I think the real work of

the relationship started and like real

intimacy and vulnerability and like love

started to form. And I realized like I

would have just passed over this person.

And I think it just totally changed my

my mentality of how

a dating app should be designed. Because

I think up until that point I thought

you know, it's a it's a numbers game.

You just got to like get through enough

people and once you find your person,

then it's

then it's kind of happily ever after

after that.

And

realizing that like how many people, you

know, we all must just skate right past

because we don't because we're not

vulnerable, because they're not

vulnerable and we failed to like make

that connection.

And so I wanted to like rebuild an app

if it were really for a relationships,

um you just it would be a very different

kind of app. You would have to like have

people slow down. You would have to have

people be more vulnerable. You'd have to

people share about themselves and put

themselves on the line a bit more in

order to form that initial connection.

And so that was the foundation and sort

of like the design principles for

what we wanted to

build with the new Hinge.

Fairy tale endings are made for movies

because there's a lot of work that

happens when the credits after the

credits roll. Totally.

Yeah, we were just getting started. I

had no idea.

And you also when you talk about this

new vision for Hinge, it's quite

idealistic. You know, this idea of just

being able to create an app where people

slow down and they give more information

and then more vulnerable. It tends to be

the case that your ideal scenario for

how humans behave isn't actually how

they want to behave. Right. Especially

these days because we're all we all

believe things should be like quick and

easy.

And it's not quick and easy. You get you

get out what you put in. And so we were

always fighting this balance of like

what people are willing to do and what

they should do. You know, and and we

were trying to to like we could of

course build an app that's just like

makes it like what people think that

they want, which is like quick and easy

and fun.

But you have to slow people down, get

them to put in a little bit more effort.

And it's a real

it's a real balance of of like

getting people to be

vulnerable as much as at least they can

tolerate.

And because the more that they are, the

more effective their experience is, the

better chance that they have of finding

their person. How was that received when

you come up with this new vision for

Hinge, which is going to be slower, much

more meaningful, and much more deeper,

and really based on forming long-term

connections? How was that received by

people?

Uh

I think in theory

it was

it was

celebrated, right? In theory I think

people are like, "Yes, the world needs

this kind of this kind of new thing.

Like we definitely want something that's

like a little bit less like fast food

and more like

you know, a nice nutritious meal when it

comes to dating."

You know, it was it was still hard to

really get people like they like it in

theory, but then they're like, "Wait, I

have to fill out like three prompts?

Like wait, I don't just swipe on people.

I have to like like something about

them? Um wait, if I like someone,

they're just going to see it? Like

you're just going to tell them? I have

to add a comment and like say something

about them?"

So, it was like a lot to get people's

head around who are used to something

that was quite different. But it was

effective. And that's what mattered the

most. And you know, the that was a it

was such a huge mindset and shift for us

to stop thinking about user engagement

and user retention and all these like

classic metrics that you know, VCs look

for when they look at like social media

apps.

And to just think, are we getting people

out on more good dates or not? And

that's going to be our North Star metric

and we'll grow through word of mouth

because people are actually going to go

on good dates and they're going to tell

their friends about it. And so that was

our North Star.

And so we didn't worry so much about

like all those engagement metrics and

you know, we didn't there weren't as

many matches and there wasn't as much

whatever engagement on the app. It was

actually way more efficient and

effective at getting people out on good

dates. And so we launched this new

thing. Our user numbers actually started

to decline initially from the old

version of the app.

And what about money?

Yeah, and so right about that time we're

starting to we've burned through all

that cash in order to build this new app

and we're starting to run out. And so I

went out to start fundraising again and

telling the story of like, "Look at

these

like we were way more effective now.

People love the product."

But on the other hand, we used to have I

don't know at the time 400, 500,000

users and now we're down to like

100,000, 150,000 users. And that's a

pretty tough

story to tell to venture capitalists.

And But you're shrinking. Yeah, we're

shrinking. But

But we're going to grow because look at

how amazing these and no one like really

bought that story. And I was flying

around everywhere talking to every VC.

And I could talk to you know, at that

point Hinge has gotten popular enough

that any VC would like take my meeting

and talk to me.

But it was just I probably had 50 or 60

VC meetings and like not a single not a

single yes. But at right on that time we

also started talking to um Match Group.

They saw they could see what I saw. They

saw, "Wow, this is actually something

that's different. It's differentiated

and it has real promise."

And so when we were down to like once

again like days of cash, while like a

week or two left of cash, we negotiated

a a deal for like an initial investment

from them.

That would set the stage for them to

eventually acquire the company.

And between 2016

and 2019 when they acquired the company,

what was growth like?

Uh it was slow at first. 2016, 2017 we

were kind of still figuring out the it

was a completely new model. And so we

were figuring out how to really make

that new model work. And we were like

you know, um tuning it.

And around 2018 we felt like, "Okay,

we've really started to like now people

are really starting to love this app.

It's starting to really grow through

word of mouth."

And and then we started to

like pour on marketing money and at that

point it was showing like how much that

could accelerate the growth. And that's

when Match Group invested. Hinge Labs.

Mhm. What is Hinge Labs? I don't believe

any other dating apps have something

like Hinge Labs. Yeah, and it's all part

of this idea that we want to build like

we're just focus on user effectiveness.

And does this actually get people out on

good dates? And a huge piece of the you

know, a dating app is is relatively

unique. It's not just a piece of

technology. It's

you know, what what it's the people that

are on there and how they're behaving

and the technology. Like that's your

experience as a user. It's not just like

we it no matter how good we get at

product and product design or whatever.

Like we have to control for the

behaviors of other people and making

sure that we have the right people on

who are behaving the right way. You

know, we can only guide them so much

with um

you know, UX. We also have to like kind

of coach people and guide people and

teach people how to become better

daters.

And so, Hinge X or I'm sorry, Hinge Labs

was developed to sort of study daters

who are successful, study daters who are

not successful, figure out what are the

patterns, what do we see, and how can we

help level up everyone to become better

and more successful daters. And so,

Hinge Labs really does, you know, deep

dive research studies on just what is

what makes daters successful,

um and and gives us the fuel to be able

to um

build better product or build user

guides, things like that.

So, what makes daters successful?

Makes dating successful? Yeah, like, you

know, I've got friends that seem to be

successful at dating and friends that

are just those prolific serial daters

that go on 100 dates a year and never

seem to make any progress. Yeah. And

also, are there like categories of

daters that you talk about? You must

have got like categories like the serial

dater that's never going to be

successful. They're just doing it for

the fun of it. Yeah.

like one-hit wonder. We We definitely

have different profiles, but we Anytime

we try to like just put people into

discrete categories, it never works cuz

people are complex and they have

different Everyone's story is kind of

unique. And so, it's hard to put people

just like into buckets.

Um

and

there are I think some general

principles that I've learned

and we've learned through Hinge Labs.

And, you know, again, you had Logan here

relatively recently. And if if people

are interested, they should definitely

go listen to her podcast because with

you because it's like a master class in

how to become successful in dating.

Yeah.

But, I would say like the more that you

are willing to be

honest and vulnerable and real, like the

quicker you can find those connections

and the higher quality connections that

you're going to get.

I think that's the kind of upshot and

the way that we really try to

design Hinge to help people maximize

their success on that front.

Why does that matter at a human level,

being honest and vulnerable?

Uh I think

two reasons. One is that you get to an

accurate assessment more quickly of

someone, right? Like, if you're trying

to be pretend to be someone you're not

or you're just trying to be cool or get

a lot of likes or whatever,

people aren't seeing the real you. And

they're going to eventually see the real

you. So, the faster that you can just

put like be clear about who you are and

what you're looking for and what you

want and what's not perfect about you,

then

I think the faster you're going to find

someone who's like, "Yes, this is the

type of person that I want to be with."

And you're going to avoid all those

people that were attracted to the kind

of veneer that you'd put up, but then

they get to know the real you and then

that's not And then I'd say the second

piece is that it gives people like

hooks to grab onto. Like, there's just

nothing to talk about with someone who's

perfect and and invulnerable and

invincible. Like, what do you like what

do you have to say? Like, we connect

over the the cracks of and the little

imperfections. And that's how we connect

and relate to one another. And so,

you'll form a much better and deeper and

quicker bond with someone when you open

up like that versus try to

impress.

Okay, what about this then? So, if I

wanted to be the world's worst dater,

if I wanted to be the world's worst um

most unsuccessful Hinge user or dating

app user more generally,

what would I have to do?

Uh So, I've got your first point, which

is about be really inauthentic. Pretend

I'm perfect and use fake photos or you

just portray myself in a way that's not

authentic.

of like filtered photos with you in

sunglasses or hanging out with a lot of

friends, one-word answers to your

prompts, you know, just like everyone or

no one or wait for likes to come to you.

I think like that that's the kind of

mentality they're trying to get people

out of. We want to We want people to

like fill out deeper Like, that's so

much of our work is like helping people

select better photos that show more of

their personality, help people answer

prompts,

which are these short questions designed

to get you into a conversation,

and answer them thoughtfully uh to

uh be really thoughtful with your likes

because the more thoughtful you are with

your likes, the better our algorithm

gets cuz we actually understand who you

like and who you don't like.

So, don't just like

you know. No, because then we can't we

can't learn your taste, right? And we're

not going to get closer and closer to

the type of person that you like. Okay,

interesting. And what about these um

these serial daters? Cuz I've got some

friends that are like those serial

daters, literally 100 dates a year. And

I'll sit with them and we'll chat and

they'll tell me, "Oh, yeah, I've been on

like three dates this week, etc." For

those people, I'd love to be able to

give offer them some advice. Thinking of

one one of my friends in particular,

who I know was is going to watch this.

Yeah. I mean, I was one of those people,

right? I mean, I was a person who um

uh

you know, constantly was I wouldn't

necessarily just go on a whole lot of

first dates, but I would go on a whole

I'd had a whole lot of

two- to six-week relationships. And um

and then as soon as I would find

something

quote-unquote wrong or I wouldn't feel

good in the relationship, then I was

like, "Well, this doesn't work. Like,

this is wrong." Cuz I think I had such a

I such a fantasy about what a good

relationship looked like. I like my

model was totally broken. And I think

for so many of us, we're like we're

trying to fit

like a model in our head

with the real with the reality that

we're trying to like match this reality

to like some model in our head about

what a good relationship is or should

look like. And I think my model was like

you know, it stays sexy and fun every

single time we're together. Um we don't

fight. There's never any You know,

there's like I I think I just had this

like very happily ever after moment in

my mind. And

so, I skipped over and passed over so

much because it just didn't fit this

like model I had in my head. And I think

some of us have

models in our head that are exceedingly

narrow. They have to be like over 6 ft

and they need to work in this type of

job and they need to be like this. And

so, you go out and you're just looking

for some reason to say no because it

doesn't fit your model.

And I think the biggest thing is for us

to

um

like change the model in our head that

we're that like of like what we're

trying to look for

and like widen that aperture a bit and

give people more of a chance and like

see things through a bit more.

People have to

um people this high height thing you

mentioned, the 6 ft thing, seems to be a

lot of conversation because

I think the vast majority of people

the the vast majority of women, I

imagine, would want someone that's more

than 6 ft. Is that correct?

Uh no, I don't I don't know if that's

actually true. But, people like someone

taller than them. Taller than them,

okay.

Yeah.

Um

6 ft seems to

just one example. I mean, I don't know

about the height, but I think it's just

the point is like we have very specific

and narrow models. And I think a lot of

people who end up in successful

relationships say, Mhm.

"This isn't uh you know, if I were

making a shopping list and like you

know, writing down all my like little

features that I'm looking for in a

partner, like this person didn't

necessarily

that like I would have I would have

missed this person." There's a website,

isn't there? I can't remember the name

of it, but you go on there and you say

what you're looking for in a partner and

it shows you your statistical

probability of finding that person.

Okay. Yeah, I don't know about that, but

yeah, I think if people saw that It's

horrifying. Yeah, it'd be pretty

horrifying like how you're cutting out

98% of people based on your criteria.

The salary, the height, the way um

the race you put on there. And then it

shows you it goes like you have a 0.0%

chance of finding this person.

right. Um and you obviously want them to

be single as well as another criteria.

Um which I find interesting. One of the

things people say about dating apps and

like dating app companies and founders

and CEOs is they want people to stay

single because then you've got more

customers.

Mhm. And surely, if every if you have

this metric where people are becoming

um

they're getting married, you're losing

customers.

Yeah. So, our belief on that, which has

always been um

we we like our motto our our tagline is

designed to be deleted. And that came

from, by the way,

we were working with a branding agency

and

they were like, "What's Hinge's

stick? You know, like what makes you

different? Like, you're Tinder, but

what?" And I was like, "I don't There's

no gimmick. Like, there's no like, 'Oh,

we're Tinder, but like X or Tinder, but

Y.'" Like, every single part of the app

is like designed to be different and

like designed to help get people out on

great dates.

And that's kind of where this like

designed to be deleted, which by the way

was like there's so much debate

internally about that cuz it's so

it sounds so technical like design like

in your own tagline like designed to be

like that and it's people won't

understand it.

But, we kind of went with it because

it's the only thing that really

represented what makes Hinge

um

really different.

And what does that mean? And it means

that do we get people out on great dates

or not? And that's what's driven every

design decision and why Hinge looks

different than all the other apps is

like that optimization function.

And

so,

in terms of a business model,

the belief is that like we will grow

through word of mouth, which is the most

effective and efficient and

cost-effective way to grow

if we just create more great dates and

more relationships. And

the thesis is like as long as there are

single people in the world, which I'm

pretty sure there are plenty of single

people left in the world, that they'll

want to use Hinge, which feels more like

a utility that's truly effective versus

like perhaps what something that feels

like a little bit more like a game.

Since the

company started, have you seen any

changes in the dating environment, the

dating landscape, dating culture? Yeah.

Yeah, Gen Z, for lack of a better term,

has different dating patterns. I think

in some sense, like when I started

Hinge, people were There was a lot of

stigma around dating apps because um

uh people just didn't use them at all.

Then I feel like everyone started to use

them and it became sort of the default

way to meet people. And I think this is

why we've actually like Hinge's growth

has accelerated so much even recently.

Is that there actually is a desire to

move away from the sort of like quick

hit, superficial Swipe, swipe, swipe.

Yeah, yeah, and moving to something

that's

People are willing to share more about

themselves and be more like I think like

Gen Z's generally

willing to like, you know, it's like the

Tik Tok instead of the Instagram kind of

feel of

being vulnerable, putting yourself out

there. You don't have to look so

polished and so perfect. And that's

actually great for

for

uh dating cuz that's exactly the kind of

ethos that we actually need for people

to be successful.

And Hinge, as I was reading, is got

these sort of five first principles.

What is the um current company mission

statement?

Well, so

the we want to foster intimate

connection to create a less lonely

world. And

a lot of social We'll call them like

social networks. They started social

networks.

We're also I think had a similar

mission. Like you wanted to get you

connected to the people who matter most

to you.

And they've all kind of like

like they all became social media

companies instead because it turns out

that like brands and influencers and

outrageous people are just more

interesting than your friends. And it's

easier to get you to spend more time in

app and more time looking at ads if we

like show you much more sensational

content than

than like

you know, real um

like creating real moments of connection

with the people who matter most to you.

And that's what I wanted to drive home

like really clearly in our mission is

that

like Hinge at its core, even if we were

expanding new business lines or do

something in the future, like we are a

company about intimate connection, about

one-to-one deep connections between

people and we don't ever want to deviate

from that as our core cuz it's really

what the world needs right now.

First principle two, radical trust. So

you've got designed to be deleted.

Number two is radical trust. Yeah. Which

means? So radical trust is our

commitment to And so these cultural

principles that you're reading off came

from this book um called How We Do

Things. And so when I when we rebooted

the company in 2015,

beginning of 2016

we um

at that point I didn't think about

company culture. Kind of thought oh, it

was just like

it's just we're a bunch of people in a

room trying to solve problems. Like

that's And we were only 30 people. So

culture just kind of emerges naturally

among that group of people. It really

rotates around the founder. But I didn't

think consciously about it.

When we did that reboot, we we let go of

half the company. We took the remaining

half and we went and did an offsite and

we did a a breakdown and a really had

like some really honest at times tearful

conversations about like what had gone

wrong.

What did we do right? What What didn't

we do right? What do we wish we had done

better?

Um and a

a lot of them were of course like

product decisions. Like oh, we focused

too much on the competition and copying

the competition and not focusing enough

on our customer.

But a lot of it was like how we operated

as a company.

And coming out of that, we actually

started a like open source Google Doc

that listed our kind of what we believed

and how we think sh- things should

should get done around Hinge.

And originally it was just like a long

doc of just all kinds of principles. It

was me just trying to like

put my management algorithm

like down and on piece of paper so that

everyone was very clear about how I made

decisions and how we should all make

decisions and how we should prioritize

and what we should do.

So then eventually as Hinge got a little

bit bigger and we started to you know,

have more than 100 employees

that model didn't make as much sense

anymore and we put it in this book

called How We Do Things, which was at

that point just a list of

all our lesson It's really about It's a

story of our lessons learned. It's like

we did it all the wrong ways

and that led us to learn to do it the

right way.

And so that's where just to give the

context on where these principles came

from. So designed to be deleted was like

we used to focus on the competition and

focusing on like what features our

competitors had.

When we did the reboot, we just focused

on

you know, making our one metric

getting people out on great dates and I

like prohibited people from looking at

the competition. I didn't want any of

their apps on my phone. Like I just just

focus on

novel innovation in service of our

customer.

Radical trust was about

a lot of the decision-making was like

very top-down

and um and I think people felt

disempowered. They felt a lot of

whiplash and radical trust was about how

do you push decision-making down to the

front lines?

And how do you empower people with the

information that they need? So have a

lot of transparency from the top down

about like where we are as a business,

what our needs are, what our problems

are so that people on the front lines

can go solve it.

Love the leap.

Love the leap is this idea that small

incremental optimizations can be can be

great, but real uh

the the things that matter require like

a level of um a much bigger innovation

leaps and we have to not be afraid of

failure because when you make those much

bigger innovation leaps, a lot of them

like won't of course land or you have to

I think even more importantly trudge

through a whole lot of failure to

finally get to success. I think there's

a culture of like that comes from people

especially who have worked in tech

companies and much larger tech companies

of like oh, you just test and iterate.

Like you test this thing and then if it

works, great. And then if it doesn't,

then you just like move on and try the

next thing. I think the difference

between that and then the way that like

often a founder and entrepreneur will

think is like I believe in this thesis

and I'm going to get there no matter

what and if I had like

I mean think about how many iterations

of Hinge I had to eventually get to the

successful Hinge. If I just been like

oh, I'm thinking about building a dating

app. I'll throw something out there and

see if people use it.

Oh gosh, they're not really using it. I

guess a dating app's not a good idea.

I'll go like build a

you know, whatever uh a car hailing app.

You have to like trudge through that. So

that's Love the Leap is like you have to

suffer through a lot of failure to make

like the big innovation leaps.

Do you see a variance in even your team

members, but other people you work with,

they're biased towards failure? They're

at different failure appetites. Yeah,

and it gets harder and harder as you get

bigger and and bigger and you're

fighting against like larger cultural

inertia. Like and this is very human by

the way to like not make mistakes and

not um

look

bad. And that's why by the way this

whole book is written as like here's all

the mistakes that we made and how we did

it all wrong just to give people the

permission know like we're all works in

progress. We're all trying to learn.

Um so you are overcoming like a much

larger cur- cultural inertia to get

people to take risks and and make

mistakes. How do you do that?

Uh you exhibit failure from the top.

Like you admit I think when you've when

like

when you've made mistakes like when I've

made mistakes or even talking about

you know, my development plan or things

that I'm working on. I just think it is

like you almost all of these cultural

attributes have to be modeled from the

very top.

Super interesting. Cuz most people are

just incentivized to just do their job.

So when you bring along a a new idea or

a new innovation

you know, incentive structures mean oh,

listen, I'm not getting paid to take

that [ __ ] risk and then maybe be made

to look stupid. Yeah. So I'm not doing

that. Yeah, I think that's right. And

that's why I think we're and we're

continuing to evolve these principles

and and and refine them. In fact, we're

going through a process right now. It's

kind of ironic cuz we're we're walking

through these and I'm about to release a

new version of these to the company and

there has been a bit of a refinement and

we're actually kind of changing this one

and combining it with the first one to

call it Love the Problem because so much

of about what we're really trying to get

across through this is that you have to

go like really deep and develop a deep

thesis on a problem and that's what you

do I think at this stage of a company.

You don't take like wild leaps based on

the intuition of a founder anymore.

You like do deep research on a problem.

You get conviction around it and then

you're not afraid to

like fail again and again trying to

solve that problem because you are

convinced that it's a real problem and

you understand a lot about it and you're

making a very informed decision You're

taking a very thoughtful approach to

solving it.

Number four was and it currently is in

my iPad here, guided by principles. And

that one's definitely staying and that's

one of the biggest um

uh

my own personal journey and I would say

like this journey and it just it it's

sort of what I talked about when I

talked about how this got created in the

first place is that

if you keep making the same mistakes

over and over again and you're not

having an honest self-assessment about

where you are and how things are

working, you won't get better. And so

both of my own personal journey and this

has happened through

you know, recovery through alcohol and

addiction and getting better and better

as an entrepreneur is like I was always

self-reflecting and thinking about like

okay, like seeking feedback. Like what

didn't go well there? What did go well

there? How can I do that better next

time?

And it became like I said, too arduous

for me to even to track all these things

in my mind. So I started putting them in

that Google Doc so that everyone at the

company could hold me accountable to

this like management algorithm I was

developing.

And what I wanted us is to do as a

company is always make decisions based

on principles. Like what's the

underlying reason? Like if I'm making a

decision, no one should ever think well,

that's just cuz Justin likes it that way

or that's just because

some other leader at the company, that's

just what they want. So let's just do it

their way. We want people to think like

to understand

like how am I making these decisions?

What's underneath that? What principles

do I believe in that made me to choose

this over that? Because if you make that

really explicit and clear, then you gain

trust, people understand like why you're

making the decisions, and two, they can

start making decisions on their own

without you needing to be in the room,

and start developing their own

principles

for how they make decisions.

And so so many of our meetings start off

with like, well, here are the principles

that we sort of aligned on as we started

to make, you know, think about this body

of work. And it just

aligns everyone on the

um

What's the What are What are What was

the like the core set of assumptions and

beliefs and values that we have before

we get into the details of the work. And

that kind of counteracts the whole CEO

because I said so,

you know, vibe, which might get, I

guess, um might get compliance, but it

probably won't deliver upon whatever

someone calls leadership. Yeah, it's not

scalable. And maybe some CEOs always

know the right thing to do, but I don't

always know the right thing to do. I I

think my job, once we got past 20 or 30

people, which by the way, I didn't know

the right thing to do even when we were

that small, but

I thought I did. Um but as we got much

bigger, like I can't be close enough to

the

to the information to like make really

great decisions. And so my job primarily

is is building and fostering the culture

that makes good decisions.

I've been thinking a lot about company

culture, and I threw this at Brian

Chesky when he was here. This idea of

how you create company culture. Like how

do you decide?

I think some people think, especially

post-pandemic, which caused all of these

companies and businesses to start

thinking about what their company

culture was way.

You'd see CEOs and managers

almost like brainstorming a

principle-less culture. And it was more

like how What days do you want people to

come in? Mondays and Wednesdays? Should

we say Tuesdays two days a week, one day

a week? Should we, you know, um

And that just doesn't feel right. It

doesn't feel like it's based on

anything. So I said to Brian, I said,

one of the things I'm thinking about is

maybe culture is

already there, and you just kind of have

to reverse engineer it from the problem

you're trying to solve in the world.

Which means, for example, if we want to

be the best dating app in the world,

then there's a set of behaviors we're

going to have to exhibit to get there,

which is going to require a set of

values. And then with those values,

we're going to use those values to

create systems, processes, and hire the

people that we need. And so you can

almost reverse engineer your mission as

a company

um backwards to figure out what your

culture is.

You said something about like you're

just describing the culture that already

exists. And I think that's kind of true,

especially if you do it early enough

where it's not out of control yet. Um

when it's like relatively close around

the founder, you've only got like 30 or

40 or 50 people, then you definitely

have some sort of culture. And at that

point though, I think you want to start

defining

defining it so that everyone's clear on

what it is, cuz it will start you'll

start losing as it starts expanding and