I've been asked by the FBI I've been asked by the

police to help with the FBI  or the police went out with

[Music] [Applause]

psychological illusion doing extraordinary  television and even better live shows Darren

is a National Treasure welcome to the show the  story We Tell ourselves is not what's real like

for example I did a show called Miracle the Lord  has his work cut out tonight and the second half

was healing the woman came up and she'd been  paralyzed on one side of her body since she was

four in floods of Tears because she could move her  left arm for the first time what you're seeing is

that it's the psychological component of suffering  right like nothing's happened nothing's changed

but their relationship to their suffering that's  been made to change it's not the things in life

that cause your problems it's the story that you  tell yourself about them it's the judgments that

you make about them there's a lot of people that  are trying to sell you on this [ __ ] that they

can take your traumas or your your insecurities  to zero I've never seen it happen we've completely

obliterated the idea of just fortune and life  sometimes life's throwing stuff back at us if

we have no control over anxiety is still somehow  the demon but you know without anxiety how do

you know to change anything you know you can't  do that without embracing anxiety to an extent

you were is predominantly based in Psychology  right so have you ever done anything and thought

how the [ __ ] did that happen don't go home  and start doing that two things come to mind

before this episode starts I have a small  favor to ask from you two months ago 74 of

people that watch this channel didn't subscribe  we're now down to 69 my goal is 50 so if you've

ever liked any of the videos we've posted if  you like this channel can you do me a quick

favor and hit the Subscribe button it helps this  channel more than you know and the bigger the

channel gets as you've seen the bigger the  guests get thank you and enjoy this episode

foreign [Music] the last few days  reading all about your childhood oh

truly fascinating thank you actually I've  actually got a picture here have you um

how strange that you have that picture  yes that's me with a um a parrot on my

shoulder after you have this little boy yes  what do I need to understand about about him

and the world he lived in and the way he saw  the world to understand you what do you need

to understand well I was an only child till I was  nine uh so I guess that's kind of that's a pretty

formative thing isn't it um quite creative like  always always drawing and Building Things Lego

um always been a bit of a people pleaser and maybe  that at that age a kind of yeah sort of happy

didn't have a lot of friends there wasn't like  a didn't have a big gang I never really did I've

always gone through life just with sort of a small  number of of good friends uh but I think there's

one that feels like a happy a happy time to think  back on I remember sitting with Jimmy Carr and him

telling me that um people often think of comedians  as being like they're depressed so they're trying

to impress other people to get some kind of thrill  for their own sort of self-gratification but Jimmy

said to me he said you should actually ask  which one of my parents was depressed that

I was trying to impress to understand how I  became a comedian and I wonder you said that

you're a bit of a people pleaser you clearly  have this huge Affinity towards entertaining

and getting the reaction back from people the  amazement where where did that start can you

have you pinpointed where that started in your  childhood yes I think I could so when I was at

school so my dad was a swimming teacher at school  and uh he and I wasn't very sporty so I kind of

um it shielded me from being like uh bullied as  an as a non-sporty kid but I didn't love school

mainly because I said I found a lot of the kids  the sporty gets quite intimidating and so on so I

kind of like but Dad teaching that helped and then  when I got to and I was I was in with the wrong

group the um the sort of classical music loving  group or the puff gang as we were less charitably

known um didn't even like classical music so it  was a pretty miserable group to be stuck with

um in sixth form I remember everybody sort  of seemed to grow up suddenly become a lot

more uh friendly and so I kind of uh I sort of  exploded in a way into sort of like a attention

seeking and I went from being very sort of quiet  and a bit a bit intimidated by these sort of uh

kids to sort of um suddenly they seem to sort of  you know like me or at least you know they were

fine so I I started doing impressions of teachers  and I would draw caricatures with them and I was

def I became a kind of really I would imagine  quite irritating certainly some of the teachers

um attention seeker so I think  it all happened around then

um and then it just sort of then progressed  into University most of my twenties was

um probably a lot of it was around you know based  around that uh and it was quite a handy thing you

know if you're going to perform it takes care of  that need to just sort of you know just kind of

impress I think it was probably a a good thing  were you picked on ortized or anything in school

before that point no so because I think because  my dad taught there it helped but I was I was

definitely always chosen last for the teams and  and things hated uh Sports and so on there were a

couple of kids that were probably I mean generally  fairly nasty anyway but I certainly got uh

a a bit from them but no I think I think I sort  of did all right I think I generally didn't enjoy

school that much and I felt like I was sort  of um I said intimidated but I don't I don't

really remember ever getting sort of I never got  beaten up or bullied or no one was making my life

particularly miserable I think it was just  the general feeling of not quite fitting in

and religion I was incredibly religious well  yeah and then I hosted it at about 18 became

incredibly atheist yeah and you I read a similar  sort of Journey in your story at six or something

you'd asked your parents if you could go to  Bible That's Right Mrs Whitaker one of our

teachers at school was uh I really liked a lot  and um she ran it was called Crusader class but

it's basically like a Sunday school thing um  and uh because I was six and she asked me if

I wanted to go to it and I just sort of Presumed  every Everybody did I didn't know any different

so I said to uh I asked my parents if I could go  and they said yes of course so I did and by the

time I realized that oh no this is actually like  a a thing that I now believe in it was sort of

I was pretty much inculcated so it was uh hard to  step out of it but I did eventually at University

so many years later I uh through doing hypnosis  first and magic and they always give you quite

a skeptical outlook on things because you just  see how people fool themselves and and so you

sort of naturally start to view a lot of belief  systems I think through those eyes including

your own I don't know how it was for you but  I um and also the very idea of doing hypnosis

um I just remember that was because I was a  member of the Christian union in my first year

at University I went to Bristol and they  were just totally up in arms I had I had

um members of the that Christian union at the back  of one of my shows exorcizing me and casting out

demons whilst I was hypnotizing people on  stage so again all of that just sort of uh

made me quite just help with the sort of General  skepticism and it took a little while to properly

come out of it in fact that the Richard Dawkins  book The The God Delusion came out around the time

that I had sort of mentally made that  step but didn't quite maybe have the

sort of proper language for it so that was if  that was a helpful book actually I'm sure it

was for many people in terms of giving that  lack of belief a kind of a structure it was

for me one of the very sort of pivotal books  in my life when I when I was about 18 years old

um I also a bit about like compulsive behaviors  from your childhood things like knocking your

knees together and yeah a series of other things  really Twitchy yeah a little on that sort of kind

of Tourette's sort of scale I think there's  a there's a there's a wedge that ends with

um quite severe things but a lot a  lot of people have that experience of

um making a little funny tickly noises in the  throat or having to you know not step on the

cracks and uh there's all the kind of OCD thing  that that starts to get accompanied by feelings of

dread and so much I never had that but yeah I was  twitching I I find a lot of um kind of creative

Creative Kids are don't I don't really know what  what it is it's a it's a seems to be a form of

Auto suggestion um it's like when you get you get  the idea in your head and then it's very hard to

let it go and sometimes I I get it now sometimes  I get it on stage because there's a certain amount

there's a lot of muscle memory with doing a stage  show so if you if something if a little twitch

you think is crept in at one point during the show  it'll just creep in every night um so I still kind

of uh still aware of it um a little more over the  last few years because obviously it's been such

a you know weird few years for everyone's mental  health so I've noticed it more than I had before

um but uh yeah and it was quite it was a it was  a lot my parents were quite despairing with it

I think it's a very painful thing to watch should  child do and not know what were they watching how

to help knees knocking sniffing terrible sniffing  yeah like Rip but really really loud I went to

see a um Alfred brendel The Pianist playing in  Berlin once when I was uh studying out there I

think or did my Gap year I think it was out there  and just I mean this guy's playing the I think

it was the Beethoven piano sonatas just him on  his own on the stage at the Berlin Philharmonic

and there's this incredibly loud sniffing that I'm  doing and by the second half everybody had cleared

out I was just basically a whole empty area of the  audience but yeah just it's such a bizarre thing

um you just can't really stop it with the best one  in the world you can't stop yourself from doing

this there's these things and it's um and you also  you don't have the language for it as a kid that's

that's the worst part of it you don't have the  language to explain that it's a compulsion it you

sort of feel like you're in control of it you say  you feel like therefore the only thing you can say

is that you want to do it if you don't want to do  it because it's horrible you'd really really want

to stop and it's it's hard and frightening because  you can't articulate it and it um uh and I I think

there's no answer to it I think just it sort of  passes as you've um as you've matured has your

perspective of your childhood evolved because  I've found that mine certainly has it's almost

like with with a bit more wisdom I say that I'm  30 years old now but with a little bit more wisdom

I've I've kind of have a different perspective now  on the events of my childhood at one point I would

have kind of narrated them differently but now  I see different sort of truths and through lines

in my early experience I think I'm quite fond  of my memories of myself as a child and I um

it felt like there was quite a clean break once  I sort of went off to University it felt like

life sort of stopped and started again  so I when I think back to my kind of

um the sort of story of myself that I guess I'm  sort of quietly living out the back of my head I

sort of don't really go much Beyond uh University  age um and I'll happily find anything excruciating

like you know more than you know anything I've  said or done 10 minutes ago I find that quite easy

um and that feeling I suppose kind of  gets weaker and weaker the further I go

back in terms of finding myself you know  embarrassing I and then by the time I get

to Childhood it's all perfectly or feels fine  I mean I'm aware as I said that I was kind of

would sort of just get on with my own things but  nothing I I uh I think I was sensitive I think I

still am I was quite a sensitive child I used to  I did used to cry a lot I know that makes me sound

unhappy but I I used to it didn't take much to  make me cry um and I think I probably retained

a sort of uh sensitivity which is sort of  interesting so to write a lot about stoicism

and a lot of the things I think people you people  do tend to write about the things that you know

that they either need to learn for themselves or  our learning so you know you express those things

um often better because you're discovering them  for free for yourself um so uh perhaps like a lot

of stoics I'm you know secretly quite uh quite  sensitive too so I remember that but not not

um not really unhappy not not totally blissfully  happy either but just a kind of Fairly content

solitary kind of kid that sensitivity um  I've always wondered if if we're particularly

taken by the Applause are we  therefore also taken by the criticism

so people that don't end up committing their  lives to being like public entertainers and

living for the response and the reaction  that their work has are those then also

the people that are most susceptible to  when you know the opposite of applause

uh yeah I yes I guess so you're definitely putting  yourself out there aren't you if you you perform

and you thought you are kind of you are um opening  yourself up to both extremes of reactions but it

wasn't really about that for me I I um I think  it was about uh control was a big part of it

and also as a sort of um like I didn't come out  until I was actually sort of quite late in my 30s

um and I think around the time that I was getting  into the hypnosis that was you know sort of

University time really uh and I think first of  all it was this is all wasn't clear to me at the

time but with hindsight that the control aspect  of it was very um clear uh and actually ticked

well if you watch a hypnotist hypnotizing people  I mean it's just that the whole thing is a big

exercise in in control and I think I've sort of  that was appealing to me although I didn't know

it I didn't it didn't strike me quite in that  language at the time but I think looking back

um that was helpful um and also I think  if the old um outmoded cliche of the

the gay man in particular being you know a  hairdresser or a interior designer and all of

those sort of horrible old cliches what they have  in common actors as well is the um the notion of

being able to create dazzling surfaces because  they they deflect people from the more difficult

but if you're feeling Shame about you know  what's underneath um and I think Magic's very

good for that as well you know you're you're sort  of creating this bubble around yourself this sort

of this um you're literally hiding behind a trick  and people will look at that trick and go oh gosh

you're amazing how do you do that you're amazing  that's a very appealing thing a lot of kids get

into magic because they're underconfident um  and a lot of people even going through magic

into adults they they've learned to rely on that  to impress people and haven't had to go back and

just work through normal social skills that  most people do so it's it's a very appealing

thing I think all of that was all of that  was helpful to me as somebody that was

not out and you know kind of working all that  stuff out use the word shame there it reminded

me of listening to your audiobook where you  talk about those two kids beating you up in

your sleeping bag I can't remember them oh yeah  yeah that's right yeah and one of the lines you

said in that section of the book is that you were  very good at I think you said embodying shame

but I know that's not the exact word you used but  they were very good at liking holding shame you're

full of shame I think was the the um the message  yeah I I can't remember exactly what I wrote but

um yeah kind of it creeps up on you I said I  I find now it's um yeah I can ease I'm prone

to it you know if I feel I've uh upset my partner  I'll it's it's a shame that I'll go to rather than

defensiveness or you know yeah I just I'll easily  I can easily get back to a feeling of like oh I've

you know I've been bad I've just sort of let this  person down is that what does shame mean to you

because I think I've been using the word a little  bit without um a very focused definition I've been

saying that I felt a lot of shame because I was  the only like black hidden in all white school and

we were the poorest family and so that feeling  of Shame turned into like a motivation which

made me want to become a happy sexy millionaire  but what does shame mean to you in that context

well I suppose if you distinguish it from  embarrassment embarrassment is sort of where

you sort of you've let yourself down in front  of or you've it's it's a feeling you're going to

get from other people they're they're important  in that it's how you've appeared before them or

as I suppose shame as how you've appeared before  yourself that you've sort of let something down

within yourself it's that isn't it um uh but I  think the experience of it is just a sort of um

it just becomes an easy resting place whatever  it is but it might be someone else it could be

anger or Fury or whatever if there's just a  an emotional through line that you've that

was a familiar place when you were young it's  just you just find yourself settling back into

that and I suppose part of getting older is  recognizing those kind of things aren't they

recognizing Ah that's that is a you know a  needless pattern and as you said with your

own experience with that can those things can be  really helpful they can provide a real impetus

and a motivation to um you know to do things  you wouldn't if I mean like not not being out

all that energy was going into creating this Mr  Magic kind of Persona and I just you know and

although it's easy to say you know you should  always always come out and all the rest of it

and of course those things are important too  but I don't think I'd be I wouldn't be sitting

here talking to you now I don't think if if that  had been an easy ride you know um shame being a

a familiar resting place as you kind of describe  it and you said that kind of starts in your

childhood I just want to be because I want to  make sure that I'm clear on the context here that

that has a familiar sort of um history in your  childhood because of the social dynamics of your

childhood because you felt like a bit different  and a bit like a loner is that what you're saying

or is there other Dynamics with parents where  they I know I think specifically with sort of

the the gay thing I think I think I think that's  what it is I think if you feel and hopefully it's

different now it's just you know it's just  going back a bit I'm 51 now so but if you

feel like those things are just embarrassing and  awkward you're kind of you know it's not like you

really get to well you're finding it out in real  time about yourself aren't you so there's just

uh it becomes an uncomfortable Center of  everything that starts to affect so much

of what happens on the surface and there's a real  experience I think if you're not out which I've

recognized in many friends as well but there's a  bit of just a bit of a bubble around you because

you're sort of you're having to maintain a kind  of a um a sort of curated exterior and and part

of that then is then what's happening underneath  is is uncomfortable and difficult and feels

shameful um so I think that's it I think that's  where I don't remember feeling that as a kid as I

said quiet and so on but I don't remember feeling  that as an experience but it just sort of just

kind of crept in and the more the more I sort of  um uh kind of was leaning into the magic Persona

thing the more the more the outside becomes  sort of you know the the harder and more sort of

um uh opaque this sort of exterior presentation  becomes I think the it goes hand in hand with a

more shameful interior until in the end you  just sort of oh [ __ ] that and just sort of

let it all be fine was was there a point  and this might be a really naive question

as a straight guy but was there a point where  it became crystal clear to you that your your

sexual preference was different or was it slow  sort of realizations and yeah it was cut um if

it's sort of because you can never really  climb into anyone else's head yeah and sort

of understand what their experience is it's it's  it's sort of um it's often difficult to really

know and of course at the time I was also a proper  Christian um which uh slightly kind of messes the

thing up and just slightly gets in the way of the  whole thing I had a friend who went through the

um some of that kind of uh Living Waters movement  which is the kind of gay conversion it's got

called Gay conversion therapy it was a bit more  subtle than that but nonetheless is basically that

so he was going through that and although I didn't  I was kind of um skirted it a little bit because

I was his friend and you know it was something we  were talking about a lot um so all of those things

an obviously by the way it doesn't  work just in case I was wondering

um I mean I went in straight it worked  for me um uh so yeah it was sort of um

I don't know I don't there's never just a clear  moment it's just uh I think as I just got in the

public eye I thought I don't want this to be  some weird sort of thing that's like a secret

um so uh and then you come out of it and you come  out about it and then actually the uh the The Joy

the reason why it's liberating at least it was  for me and probably hopefully most people now

is that people just don't care like this thing  that you've carried around and that experience

that shameful Center that's there again shame is  a really strong word but nonetheless it is kind of

just this sort of awkward thing and  eventually when it when you sort of

are open about it it's just people don't care  why why would they care so that's that's the

lib that's why it's liberating it's not  because suddenly you can you know spin

around in the street with your shopping bags  it's um it's just that oh no one cares about

you're driving difficult private stuff in the  best way so actually and you've done the big

one like you've so now anything else after this  will be will be fine that I think that's why

it's a liberating thing I really quite I think  it was in the telegraph well you'd said that

um maybe the journalist was commentating that um  something as simple as mislaying your keys can

trigger a whole new wave of self-hatred oh God  that was me saying that was it uh yeah that's

just Fury though isn't it when you can't find  a circle you can't find your keys or your pen

um self-hatred I mean is a strong strong word  uh I think the people maybe yeah maybe it does

yeah I probably would yes I would reflect  it back on myself rather than being angry

my partner anybody else who's probably lost it  that's what he'd do he'd be angry that I I must

have put his keys somewhere because he can't find  them I would just be yeah beating myself up for

why am I always losing stuff why can't I remember  where I put things yeah I definitely would do that

interesting I wouldn't no no it wouldn't I don't  think it would reflect on my my own self-image

if I lost the keys or even if it did it wouldn't  negatively reflect I think that's just who I am

that's who I am yeah I'm one organized versus  like oh I'm so in organized I hate I hate that

about myself yeah well I don't know when I said  that that was probably quite a while ago and uh

I don't know if I'd necessarily be that hard on  myself now plus unless you exaggerate these things

for rhetorical effect um has anything changed  like on a really fundamental level yeah I'm so

curious about how how how could we are actually  changing some of these things because we say yeah

we talk about it but as I've got an older and  older and as I've done more and more of these

interviews I tend to find that they're like real  fundamental stuff is never healed it never goes

away and I actually think that's really good news  for people because there's a lot of people that

are trying to sell you on this [ __ ] that they  can take your traumas or your your insecurities to

zero yeah I've never seen it happen no that's all  wrong and even even stoicism in a way is sort of

um a little guilty of that um even something  that's talked about talking about rolling with the

punches of life is still kind of suggesting that  and if you get this right you won't be disturbed

you know you won't experience anxiety that is all  that's a little bit off really I think the nature

of life is that it is it is difficult and uh not  all the time but a lot of the time things really

go badly and they certainly don't go as you  planned and you know that you actually as you

start to get older you realize your plans probably  have nothing to do with how things are turning out

but the illusion that they are is what propels  you through the first half of life um so uh

actually I think the project the task our task  is um a certain amount of is sort of personal

development and in integrating ourselves with  the parts of us that we are uncomfortable with

so again that's the project of relating to what's  difficult within ourselves and then how we do that

in life as well how we relate to things that  are difficult and tricky in life because the

thing about although that experience can be very  um isolating those feelings of you know when life

lets you down or you feel you've failed  they tend to be quite isolating experiences

um like shame right that's a very isolating  thing whereas actually and weirdly this I'm

doing this show showing at the moment and  this is entirely what the show's about

those isolating experiences like they're exactly  the things that join us all up that is the

that is The Human Experience how how do we deal  with the difficulties of life you know when things

are going badly and we feel  like we fail that's that's

what we all have to find our way through so the  things that feel most isolating are the things

that tend to connect us um so I don't think  it's about trying to bury them under sort of

you know some sort of forced optimism and  it isn't about reaching a Nirvana of of

um a problem-free life I think that's uh it's a  really sort of terrible project because you're

going to end up blaming yourself for failing  you weren't a good enough stoic or you weren't

a good enough Optimist or whatever um always  reminded me of the faith healers that I um

spent a lot of time watching and when they do  that thing of saying throw away your pills and

if your illness returns it's because you didn't  have enough Faith like it's your fault and that's

no different from the you know the the secret you  know the um the Law of Attraction this is yeah

it's the same thing it's the same thing you have  to completely commit yourself and if it doesn't

work out if the universe doesn't provide you with  it's always jewelry and money and cars a bit odd

um then you didn't have enough Faith um  it wasn't you know it was your own fault

um so it's a perfect cycle of uh blame um  uh which exonerates the um the actual system

completely inputs the blame uh entirely on on you  so I'm yeah I uh there's a bit of an irony in the

fact that people choose those books because they  they don't want responsibility but failure puts

responsibility back on them because I think of  like the the law of attract I actually had a

conversation with um a girl I was dating many  years ago in New York and she actually got out

the cab and walked off because I said to her  that I she believed that she could visualize

anything into existence I went so you believe  that you can just think about something and

then it will happen so you could think about  becoming a billionaire and what happened she

went yes I was like no I don't agree with that  but house because you put out into the universe

and then it comes back and what they're doing  in that to me it seems like they're alleviating

their own sense of responsibility they're putting  it up to the puppet master in the universe but as

you've described then when that fails the blame is  ultimately on them for not doing it yeah it must

be awful as opposed to it was just a bad idea to  to begin with and more helpfully how do we live

comfortably with the universe that doesn't give a  [ __ ] what we what our plans are well why would

it doesn't make any sense so how do we how do we  navigate and that there's a there is an ancient

uh sort of image it's it's appeared in so many  different forms of an x equals y diagonal so

if you imagine a graph and you've got along  one axis you've got the x-axis is the stuff

you want to achieve in life your aims and your  plans and then the other access the y-axis is

just life what they used to call Fortune it's  all the stuff that just gets thrown at you

um if you imagine the line that we lead in our  in our lives it's a sort of an x equals y line

right it's sort of an undulating line so sometimes  our plans are winning and we're doing great and

sometimes life's throwing stuff back at us we have  no control over and things are gone horrible and

someone's got ill or whatever it is so there's  this sort of undulating x equals y diagonal

where we're being pulled in these two different  directions that's what we live that's just sort of

reality and the nature of the kind of the American  optimistic model is that by believing in ourselves

weaken and this is not it's an old hangover from  protestantism um the sort of work ethic that you

can by believing in yourself you can crank that  line up so it's in line with your aims and your

goals um and we just it's it's a we've completely  obliterated the idea of just fortune and life from

that you know we used to we used to call people  um unfortunate now we call them losers you know

so there's a there's a a lack of respect now for  just the fact that life is throwing stuff back

at you so how do you how do you navigate that I  think actually stoicism is a very good toolkit

foreign pretty much all of your listeners will  be familiar with but the the bottom line of it is

is that you know the the the things in life it's  not the things in life that cause your problems

it's the the story that you tell yourself about  them it's the judgments that you make about them

which is a very good and sensible idea that's  made its way down to us um over the last couple

of thousand years and then Allied to that you take  all the stuff you have no control over outcomes

what other people do and what they think and so on  and you can just decide that that stuff is fine as

it is and you can just focus on the stuff only  try and change the stuff you can actually change

which is the world of your own thoughts and your  own actions and that's where we should put our

attention and then there's interesting there is a  middle ground of uh you know like if you're well

success of any sort you know there's parts of  that you're in control of and parts that you're

not so it's like a best analogy I've read for  is like going into a game of tennis if you go in

determined to win and then your uh your opponent  is playing better than you you're probably going

to get anxious and you're going to feel that  you're failing whereas if you go in determined

to play as well as you can again just to control  the part you're in you're in charge of then uh it

sort of doesn't matter if your opponents a bit  better than you or they start to win you're not

you're not failing you know you're and the same  goes for um you know the stomachs were big movers

and shakers you if you want to change the world  you can but you're only gonna emotionally commit

yourself to your intention and your actions not  the outcomes which may happen a generation after

you've after you've died you know that's something  out of your hands I think all that's very helpful

and very useful the only thing if you see it as  a toolkit um to be lent into when it's helpful

but the uh even that uh if you take it as a sort  of a you know almost like a spiritual way of life

can fall into the um problem of and therefore we  shouldn't have any anxiety therefore anxiety is

still somehow the demon but you know without  anxiety how do you know to change anything

in your life how do you know to change your job  unless the current job is making you feel bad or

you know things have to become anxious and  things have to fall away in order for us to

move forward and grow and we you know you can't  do that without embracing anxiety to to an extent

as I've aged I've started to realize that the  kind of compass of my life is how I feel and

that's kind of what you've alluded to there that  we have this signal sometimes it comes in the

form of anxiety sometimes it comes in the form of  fear but these are all like really useful signals

um do you resonate with what I just said there  in terms of like feelings that our body is giving

us are the greatest signals for uh for us to  navigate versus like narratives versus like

what my mum wants or I end up in a working in the  city in like a suit and a tie because that's what

Society had an expectation of but I'm feeling  a signal inside which is I know depression or

I'm feeling you know I think those things are  very important to listen to I think we we do

live out stories very easily we do tend to uh  see things in terms of a narrative and that's

um it's an interestingly double-edged  thing because on the one hand

whether you know someone's written in or out of  a story it's become very important language and

harm and all of those things have all got suddenly  very tied up and store the very notion of story

has become so important um taking authorship  of your story and so on but the other the other

side of that which you know I live out in my in  my job as a magician is that stories are just

stories you know if a magician fools  you with a trick in a way that works you

what you're being shown is that your story  that you're performing with the world isn't

quite right like there's something you missed and  you always feel like you properly paid attention

you saw everything you you were taking in all  the information but it shows you that you've

missed something that your Narrative of what  reality is isn't the same as the world um and uh

so that the the story side of things it seems  to be part of just our makeup but it's important

not to fall in love with it too much and to  realize that the nature of a story is that it

there's stuff you're excluding there's an  image isn't there of telling a story over

a campfire and a clearing and it's cozy um but  then there's all the forest in the darkness

with all the stuff that you're uh excluding  from that story and that's where the monsters

live and the nature of monsters that they come  and bite you and all the stuff that we don't

include in a story whether it's the story we  tell about uh tell ourselves about ourselves

um or whether it's a story We Tell ourselves  about are Nation or our culture whether it's

a social thing or whether it's a private  thing the stuff that we bury and the stuff

that we don't include within the narrative  because the narrative is really too simple

is goes deep like it's getting sort of gets buried  it gets buried in our own unconscious or it gets

buried in the untold story of whatever the thing  is and that's what comes back and bites us that's

the the stuff that comes to own us in our own  lives and and in our uh you know in our societal

lives as well as the stuff that we've buried and  I think as you as you get older this is where that

those feeling signals come in I think it  becomes more and more important to pay

attention to the things that we are banishing  from our stories you know what what do we

if we think about what makes us feel resentful  or what we Envy or you know what are what are

those things because those are the things  that we're bearing somehow and I think

there's a shift in the second half of life and  a membership I'm a chunk older than you but

um where we can disengage a bit with the the story  that we've been telling of how to move forward in

life that's all about a dialogue with the external  world that's where we're getting our cues from

people showing us what we need to be successful  what we need to look or act in a certain way

that denotes moving forward in progress we do that  for the first half of life and it is sustained a

little by this optimistic illusion that the child  the castles that we're chasing in the air that

will reach if we just you know a lot of Happiness  deferring going on and a lot of you know focusing

on the future and then something happens around  midlife where actually the project shifts to

taking the cues from within rather than  from the outside world and I think then

that's a good time for priorities to  shift from what will give me success

in the future to what is actually what might  bring pleasure and satisfaction and meaning

now in the in the present I think that's a useful  thing to lean into towards the second half of life

it was University that's um sort of sparked your  interest in hypnosis right yeah yeah yeah you saw

someone on campus doing Martin Taylor was doing  a show yes it was in my freshers week and uh

wow that was amazing and I I left and walked  back that night with a friend and said I'm

going to learn how to do this and my friend  Nick said oh yeah so am I but I knew I meant

it I knew that I've never seen it before never  come across hypnosis I obviously heard of it but

um and it was a good show like it wasn't you  know embarrassing people are making them look

stupid it was sort of just jaw-dropping um how  did you know that you meant it because I've had

that feeling in my life before where something  just connects yeah well I think it was the again

those boxes were being ticked something  about performing something about control

uh I didn't really know it it just felt  like I want I I have to do that it's the

most amazing thing I've seen and it was uh it  was appealing in ways that just weren't really

um I suppose I hadn't really thought about  I hadn't thought about performing hadn't uh

but yeah I think I think that's what's  happening isn't it there's something

it's resonating unconsciously it's something  that you kind of need and it was absolutely

no there was no doubt so I I bought borrowed  stole any books I could find on the subject

you probably just learn on YouTube nowadays but  it's probably a dodgy thing because you need to

you need to learn it the long way around so  that if you run into problems or if someone's

having a weird time when you're hypnotizing  them you can't be like fumbling around trying

to Google what to do you know you need to  have the skills there and the wherewithal to

to deal with it so I definitely learned the  long way around uh yeah and then you became I

think from what I was reading pretty obsessed with  magic and hypnosis and yeah to the point that you

have a conversation with your parents and you tell  them that you're gonna yeah I remember saying to

my mum I think I'm not going to be a lawyer I was  studying uh law in German I said I'm not going to

be a lawyer I'm going to be a um a magician I said  oh fine that sounds great sounds much more fun

which actually made me stop and think okay hang  on probably being a bit probably being a bit rash

um what did they say so they were okay with it  totally yeah yeah yeah yeah that's what she said

she said oh that sounds great it sounds much more  fun it's nice isn't it I wrote them a letter at

the end of my first year saying because I  I saw all these other law students really

fretting about their exams because of what their  parents were going to think if they didn't pass

and that had never occurred to me as a thing  that your parents would make you feel so I uh

wrote them a letter thanking them for for that  just for um letting me always do what I wanted

to do the only thing they ever put any pressure on  me to do is learn how to drive and I don't drive

I still don't drive that's still that drive it's  it's quite a common story I have to say that um

your obsession seemed to come from or at least be  driven by some kind of insecurity as in like the

reason why hypnosis initially resonated so much  was because it was giving you some it felt like

it might offer you something that you were looking  for or didn't have yourself yeah that's a story I

hear also obsessions are though isn't that the  nature of them aren't your eyes it's just that

the level of obsession I saw when from that day  when you discovered hypnosis like getting all the

books teaching yourself yeah and then even Beyond  University where you start working in restaurants

for many many years how long how long from  that first day when you saw hypnosis for the

first time until um let's say before you the  TV stuff began how long is that sort of tenure

I think the tenure is about is about 10 years 10  years I think so let me think so I I graduated

94 and then uh by that point I was doing  the odd um hypnosis show for students I

oh actually the the first TV  show went out in December 2000.

so I was into all it was about 10 years but also  included my University career but there was a

six-year period after University by which point  I was already doing it mainly for students when

I was just then signing on or just about scraping  a living doing hypnosis shows but a lot more magic

I was doing magic in restaurants in Bristol and  then people would book me for their parties and

um and I wrote a book for magicians which kind  of got me known within that world which that

then led to um being picked out for a TV  show that led to me getting a phone call

my name getting passed around in that world  so that's almost 10 years of practicing yeah

um without real any real money when you say  signing on for people that are in America signing

out as in welfare I guess you'd call it yeah I was  I was I lived in this my student flat I stayed in

it was quite a nice flat I had all my books in it  and my parrot and uh that didn't cost me very much

and I just loved his life I would go out dreaming  up magic tricks during the day and then I would go

out and do them in the evening and so I developed  my own sort of approach to it all and uh that yeah

that I I just remember thinking I've never had any  ambition at all and and I just remember thinking

if I if I can take us like a a cross section of  my life is everything in the right place like am I

I'd like to get up whenever I'd like to get up  I'd like to feel I can make my own decisions

about what I do from day to day and I just had  a vague idea of those sorts of things that were

important to me and um and if anything didn't  feel right it'd be easy to sort of change and

that was all that was always how I was never  about looking forward into the future it was

never about where do I want to be it was just  is this day this week sort of the life that I'd

like to be living and that's never changed um I  suppose the difference is is you get successful

you start to have people around you that are doing  those other jobs for you the grown-up jobs and you

know I've got a manager and I've worked with  producers and all that kind of things so it's

not like that doesn't have to happen somewhere  along the line but it doesn't come from me I've

um uh you can feel like a kid a little bit a bit  like a child in a world of grown-ups so I feel

that sometimes except now the grown-ups  are younger than me which is uh strange

um but also I think maybe that's a good way  to feel maybe that's a nice way to be if you

can trust yourself from today yeah to the to  that young man in those restaurants in Bristol

doing the magic tricks is there a difference  in your level of happiness I think about this

I I I think it's about the same  but it's different I mean the the

um a bit like being a kid and playing on my own  most of my twenties were cut well my twenties

were sort of Fairly fairly solitary as well  and that's another template that settles in so

um that's again an easy place to go back to I  love my own company all my interests the things

I love doing out of my job painting writing  and reading and they're all like solitary

things I said that's a comfortable place for  me so pardon me slide more of that then so it

slightly misses that but actually that's you know  I also aware it was that was lonely sometimes and

um you know I like being in a relationship too  so it's different had a different feel about it

um I think the freedom to just do what I wanted  to do and kind of um create this sort of world

for myself that was kind of lovely and that's  harder to do that as you grow up and you do have

responsibilities and you know you're contributing  to a household and you've got a partner you've got

dogs and all of that it's not not quite as easy  so a childish part of me would kind of quite like

going back to that but not really not really I  wouldn't really press a button to make it happen

it's just a a nice little sort of back of the head  dream as we probably all have maybe don't we a

slight kind of fantasy thing it would never really  live it out but it's just something nice about

about that um it's almost like um I feel like  you were my head is like you know you're in

Bristol mining your own business enjoying the the  simple life and then they pulled you they ripped

you out of Bristol um you were really successful  so they put you on TV that was really successful

and sometimes when people are successful they  sometimes forget and I think I've done this in

my life a few times kind of we forget to take the  moment of pause and consider how intentional this

journey and Direction and direction of travel is  kind of get pulled and dragged and then ends up

feeling a bit like you're throwing the coal in  the the steam engine of the train just to keep

it moving has there ever been a moment of pause  in your life where you've you've gone do you know

what I need to take some time and just think about  what I'm doing and why I'm doing it because I've

been successful and then I've climbed the ladder  people do that a lot in the corporate world they

become a good lawyer then they get promoted  then they're a partner and they go [ __ ] am

I doing here yeah I think we drift towards the  things we're second best it's like you know the

the great teacher that becomes a Headmaster but  would have been a better teacher than uh that's

an easy thing to do isn't it um and I think that  sometimes I think about oh it might be quite nice

to act I think I'm doing exactly that thing of  sort of going from being um someone who's really

good at what I do now and I just to sort of why  why would I want to tell that might be fun but

like what a strange thing we naturally start to  drift towards things that we're not as good at

um uh I the only I would say when you said that  I was thinking of um the early the Early TV shows

when I was sort of which were very much a response  to David Blaine's success in the states I'm out

doing you know mind reading tricks and things and  I I kind of felt like I'd grown out of it but I

was that was sort of the mode that I was caught in  and I definitely felt like I'm not really enjoying

this and that led to a shift in the type of shows  I was doing so the I mean the last show I've done

is on Netflix called sacrifice if people have  no idea who I am and they've listened this far

um uh and generally what I've been doing  for the last decade or so with the TV shows

is putting people through these kind of  Truman Show style big social experiments

often quite life or death situations they found  themselves in without realizing they're part of

a show and what that allowed me to do was not  be the center of attention and the reason the

reason for it is actually apart from just my own  dissatisfaction with it but just magically if you

um if you can click your fingers and make anything  happen which is sort of what a magician does

dramatically that's a very um unsound uh place  to be and this is you know pet and Teller the

yeah yeah so something that teller who apart from  being a beautiful magician is a wonderful thinker

as well he's spoken a lot about this that it's  actually very bad drama if you can make anything

happen what we want dramatically are heroes people  that are struggling with the situation maybe they

are trying to get to point a but actually they  end up at point B um and his thoughts and my own

sort of sort of dissatisfaction I guess with that  first stage of my career led to this shift where

I could be in the background pulling the strings  but actually you're watching a real member of the

public go through quite intense drama and that has  to be more appealing than somebody going hey look

at me aren't I clever which is sort of the bottom  line of what most magic is so I think that was a

kind of semi-deliberate shift that came from a  moment of pause was it quite intentional for you

to take you know I've seen multiple documentaries  you've done where you're proving that magic or

the supernatural isn't real and again that's  super compelling because we would expect you

to be leaning into that and persuading us of the  supernatural whereas some of the most compelling

stuff I've watched you do whether you're  confronting like a psychic that's pretending

to speak to the dead or I remember that reading  you did where the woman had pulled up outside of

the Mercedes and the minute on a mini yeah yeah  and you would you basically what was it you you

um you read her not her future you read into her  life I think it was that the psychic that I was

challenging had mentioned um for many years that  she drove a little red mini and she'd been really

impressed by that but actually I've seen him pull  up his car uh right parked next to her in the car

park yeah but actually I think it's the opposite I  think the um there's a long tradition of magicians

pulling apart psychics and charlatans and I  think it's because we end up with a knowledge

of how those things work um and it goes right  back to Houdini and the seances and exposing

the fraudulent mediums in the dark you know it's a  long a long and probably before that but there's a

long history of it um so I the only thing about  it is that you're if you're just going no this

is fake you're not being very entertaining and  by the nature of what those people do it's more

entertaining so they've kind of won the game so  I've tried to avoid making when I when I have

sort of you know attacked those areas rather than  just attack them and make it negative I've always

tried to recreate something and make it more  interesting and and better while at the same

time saying I'm not really doing this so for  example there was a in one of the shows I did

I had an audience on stage this was in Infamous  which was a previous Stage Show and I um

was giving them mediumship readings right so  I say just come up if you've lost somebody if

there's somebody that you would that you'd want  to get in touch with if you were to see a medium

and a skeptical audience kind of like me right  because they're my audiences but so they'd come

up and sit down and I would start to give them  these readings and I would say and I'm getting

a message from your auntie Jill is that right do  you have an auntie Jill that passed away that yes

and she's saying she's not saying anything I'm  just making this up but she's saying that you've

got oh you've got a little dog called Bella  that she really loves is that right yes and

um and I'm lying to you but she said so I would  like pepper these like impossible information

I was giving with reminders that I was making it  up um and I just found that really really sort of

interesting and and um theatrically it was really  interesting and much more interesting than saying

these people are fake and prove it and if you can  prove it I'll give you a million dollars whatever

so I've I've tried to find a more creative  approach to that do some people think you are

you are Supernatural in your powers some well I  was going to say actually after that about a week

into that show I came out there's a girl at stage  door said um I wondered if you could put me I say

girl which was you know you know in her 20s but  if you could put me in touch with my grandmother

who's passed on and I said oh God I'm so sorry  I hoped it was clear from the show that I can't

really do it that stuff isn't real and she don't  know I know I know you can't really do it and it's

not real but I just wondered if you could just  put me in touch with her like it was extraordinary

um how we kind of can balance these  things in our in our heads so yeah I

I I'm sure people believe all sorts of things  about me I think the the way of the way I look

at it is a bell curve so at one end of the  bell curve it's people that think it's all

fake it's all Stooges it's all set up um and I  never use Stooges and that's not what it is and

at The Other Extreme people saying I'm psychic  and I won't admit to it which is also not true

um and then there's this main swell in  the Middle where people sort of get it

um and that's really all you can I think take uh  responsibility for really there's always going

to be people at the far edges that will have uh  strange and extreme reactions um and then you

know I think there's a certain license on stage  which is different from TV if you're doing stuff

down the barrel of a TV if you're talking to  people at home there's a level of directness

and honesty there whereas it feels like on  stage there's a kind of theatrical quotation

marks around the whole thing so I feel like I  do things on stage which I wouldn't do on TV

um so that changes it too it's quite an  interesting line sort of treading treading

that I kind of in the very early shows very early  TV shows it was very much like I'm I am doing this

for real that's what I said this and these are not  tricks um and then once the show's realized once

we realized there was going to be some longevity  and there were going to be more shows it was

important to me just to bring it back to a place  that was honest and kind of ambiguous as well

and to and I've enjoyed that now I like leaning  into the ambiguity ambiguity of what I'm doing

because again it it it means that you can  do more interesting stuff with it the you

know if there's a lesson in it about how we  see the world how the story We Tell ourselves

is not what's real how we mistake that story for  reality you know we mistake the limits of Our Own

um field of vision for the for the horizons of  the world you know if we if there's something

in there to be said in something as childish  as magic if there's some something worthwhile

to be said it's much easier to say that if  you're not trying to make it about yourself

has anything ever stumped you in terms  of the supernatural I you know I was

your work is predominantly based in Psychology  right so has there have you ever done anything

and thought how the [ __ ] did that happen uh  two things come to mind one I was in a restaurant

in Bristol approaching a table which is always  excruciating um uh if people aren't interested

and I'm walking up with a deck of cards and I  sort of introduce myself and it's two businessmen

and one of them says oh no no thank you so much  and I said okay and as I walked away the other

one went but Queen of Hearts 13 cards down and I  sort of laughed and walked away then went into a

corner and counted the guards down at the 13th  one down was the Queen of Hearts no idea how he

did that if you are listening please get in  touch that's bugged me for 20 years and the

um the other thing was actually doing I did a  show called Miracle which is so this is also

on Netflix it was a uh uh previous uh stage  show a few State shows ago and the second

half was healing it was like Evangelical uh  healing people being slain in the spirit and

um had no idea if it was going to work because  again very skeptical audience like not you know

if you I've been to these events with these  big big name healers and of course people are

arriving expecting it to work and they've got a  certain amount of you know uh Readiness for it

which obviously helps and I didn't know if it  was going to work at all but it did and again

I'm sort of undercutting it like I'm I'm doing  it and I'm creating these healings and inverted

commas for people in the audience but at the  same time I'm kind of undercutting it too but

um it was extraordinary I mean I remember in  the first week a woman came up and she'd been

parallel she was probably in her 40s she'd been  paralyzed on one side of her body since she was

four or something in floods of Tears because  she could move her left arm for the first time

um and night after night things like that  sometimes as I imagine just you know someone

people with a bad back that felt better but  sometimes really quite dramatic things too

and it was although I could explain it because  I knew what I was doing it was um what what

you're seeing is the psychological component of  suffering right like if you take an x-ray before

and after nothing's happened nothing's changed  but that how that person is living out their

um Affliction how they live their relationship  to their suffering has that's been made to change

so what you're seeing it's just a mix of two  things that are going on there's certain there's

adrenaline which is a natural painkiller so  you make that you make the whole experience

full of adrenaline um you know in the same way  of a you know lion walked into this room and

you'd previously stubbed your toe you'd run away  and you wouldn't feel the pain of your toe right

because there's a bigger threat um that's just  adrenaline that's fine and then but this other

thing that which is maybe kick-started by the  experience of the adrenaline that you you've

this thing that you've lived out like presumably  this woman her arm had been fine for many years

but she hadn't she just continued to live as if  it wasn't you know and all the stuff that you

build up around pain you know the the way people  respond to you so you there's a whole network of

um social aspects to it over protecting  something that doesn't need protecting anymore

you know it's much more complicated  than simply the organic cause of of

um of your pain there's lots of other things  that sustain it and can keep it going Beyond

really where it's useful so there she was having  this extraordinary experience she couldn't explain

um when really nothing had happened Beyond she  was just had been snapped out of something that

was that was sort of amazing and kind of  wonderful that I started to you know do

the thing of going maybe I could do this maybe  I could offer this as a show of like secular

healing it'll only work on some people and you're  only dealing with relatively small percentages um

and I did start to think that and of course  that's where you start to go mad that's when

you start to think you're playing God and and  then of course people because I when you go to

these events the big name healers I've seen Benny  Hinn and others um what you what you don't really

see when you watch those things on TV is that  there are in some of these big venues hospital

beds that have been brought in there are people  with you know a kid with Down Syndrome that I

spoke to the mum and she'd she'd taken her son  to so many shows following around the country

um and things that just they're not going to get  they're not going to get healed by those kind of

Dynamics um so that's an uglier sort of side of  that because people have become very dependent

on it are not going to get any help and then  there's the lack of any sort of follow-up you

know there's plenty of infrastructure in place if  you want to donate but no infrastructure if you've

been in any way adversely affected by it and you  want help or if you've had a healing and now you

you'll don't know how to sustain that or what  you're supposed to do other than being told to

give more money you know you know when um people  discovered through your TV work that you had this

skill and talent I imagine you've got lots of  approaches to use it for Less ethical reasons

because I I mean help me get the girlfriend back  help me close the deal or help me rob a bank a

little not um I suppose people would have to ask  that wouldn't have the the only I I remember I've

been asked by the FBI I've been asked by the  police really to help I mean it's never gone

beyond that discussion because I just I mean  even you know there's plenty of businesses as

well but it's just it's not my world I feel  like a I'm an Entertainer I'm also quite um

introverted I don't quite have that thing of  like you know yeah let me get out there and and

a change the world or B I don't have to whatever  that thing is that I feel I could just apply this

to would it be anyone everything or the police  went out I don't know because it never went

beyond them saying would you come and talk to us  about something and us getting back and saying

no it's not appropriate so I  don't know now I want to know

I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors  on this podcast as the seasons have begun to

change so has my diet and right now I'm just going  to be completely honest with you I'm starting to

think a lot about slimming down a little bit  because over the last couple of probably the

last four or five months my diet has been pretty  bad um and it started to show a little bit really

over the last two months I go to the gym about 80  of the time so I track it with 10 of my friends in

a WhatsApp group and this tracker online and I'm  currently at 81 um so 81 of the days I've done a

workout in the last 150 days right so I'm going to  the gym about six times a week and so one of the

things I'm doing now to reduce my calorie intake  and trying to get back to being nutritionally

complete and all I eat is I'm having the fuel  protein shake thank you heal for making a product

that I actually like The Salted Caramel is my  favorite I've got the banana one here which is the

one my girlfriend likes but for me salted caramel  is the one we are lucky enough to have Intel

sponsoring this podcast and in previous episode  AIDS I've introduced the Intel Evo platform the

badge of approval for high spec laptops that will  enable you to be more productive on the go all of

their designs are tested to make sure they're  extremely thin and making them super portable

and they also have a high quality display and  camera features for example this Samsung device

that I'm using for those of you that are watching  on on YouTube or Spotify is super light making it

the perfect on-the-go device whether I'm working  in a plane or I'm in the car or wherever I am on

the go with Intel Evo you don't need to sacrifice  you get the performance you need but in a stylish

and lightweight design so now you know all you  need to do is to look for the Intel Evo badge

to be assured of performance and as always to find  out more head to intel.co.uk Evo your skill stack

when I think about the you know because there's  lots of people that might have studied hypnosis

or they might have studied magic or sleight  of hand or whatever but they didn't end up on

the level you're on at the table you're at on the  shows you're on when you think about why you got

there I understand that 10 years of The graft  and I see that in a lot of people that sit here

I see it in Jimmy Carr leaves University goes  and does all of these like [ __ ] gigs for 20

quid for years on years and years and years I see  it Lewis Capaldi the musician who went and played

in pubs in Scotland for years and years and years  and years and just absolutely loved it wanted to

stay there I see the tenure bit which a lot of  young kids don't appreciate because we all want

it now and we want it for the wrong reasons  but what else was it about you the way your

delivery your style that you think in hindsight  made you compelling oh it's a really difficult

one it's difficult it's difficult even if I knew  the answer would be hard to say it um I I think

I don't think it's that I think it's sort of it's  not quite that intentional I think you've probably

grafted and done those things I can't speak for  Jimmy and others but probably just because you

really enjoyed them in and of themselves you  probably weren't thinking I don't do this if

I get ahead I can secure this for myself probably  and if that is the case if you are just doing it

because you love it and that feels like in and of  itself what you're doing and there's no particular

need for a plan beyond that then you'll keep  at it you'll get very you'll get very good at

it if if that's if that feels like all you need  in the moment anyway then why why wouldn't you

you know love it and put your all your passion  into it and get very good at it so that helped

um uh and then when things did sort of take off  a bit my manager also had a similar um ethos of

just sort of Slow Burn Slow Burn there was never  any sense of me you know being thrown at a public

or any sort of overnight success or anything like  that it was a very deliberate thing it just slowly

kind of letting it get out there and that so that  was helpful um I think as I've I had a good team

around me um it's not like a one not really a  one-man thing there's always although I had had

my own experience for those 10 years of doing it  on my own once I got into the TV there was like

a little group of us which I'm sure is fairly  common and then I think I think what does help

is letting it grow up with me as I've as I've got  older I've just let the thing develop with me like

I don't really know what job to you know you asked  me before we started like how I'd refer to myself

I never really know I mean Mentalist I  think technically it's what I am but I mean

I remember a couple of years ago I had the  book on happy happiness come out which is

essentially a book of Greek philosophy come out  the sake the same month as a ghost trainer for

the thought Park and I do remember thinking  I don't know what I don't know what that is I

don't know what job that is that allows for those  two things it certainly isn't mentalism um so um

uh so yeah just allowing allowing the thing to  grow up with me and in terms of like you know I

occasionally you know people talk about the brand  and so on it's it's um it's a very helpful thing

I think just let it let the thing just be you and  not particularly be driven by the limitations of

what it when I first started I remember reading I  used to go on them magic discussion forums and so

on to see what magicians were saying about me  and there was a lot of like oh this isn't even

mentalism like there's a certain type of magic  called mentalism and I wasn't quite doing that

I was doing stuff that wasn't 10 and they would  they would see that as a real sort of negative

and I always thought that's why that's interesting  that that would bother anybody a who knows what

the word even means who cares and be that that  would that I wasn't somehow sticking within that

um so and that's another thing about playing on  your own isn't it and um you you or being if you

if you feel like an outsider as a kid I think  as you get older you start you value that that

becomes like a bit of a superpower you you hang  on to that feeling of of um being an outsider

and you kind of use that so that's always helped  me and I've just followed my nose for what feels

fun and interesting and worthwhile and as I've  got older I've let those things grow with me and

um I find a lot of Life much more interesting than  magic Magic's quite a childish thing really so

it means that the stuff I find more  interesting about life I can bring

into magic you know I think if you've  got if you've got both feet in your

craft or your art form or whatever if as in if  the thing is feels to you so huge and expansive

and all that you know you can't you're sort of a  bit overwhelmed by it you can't move it anywhere

so if you've got one foot in that thing and your  other foot in the rest of Life at least you've got

some leverage then to take this thing that you  do somewhere interesting so maybe that's helped

as well I see that in your shows I see how your  other passions are riddled throughout the show

I remember watching a show in New York which  was just astounding it's funny because I think

of myself as a smart person you know I think  I'll figure this out I'll he won't be able to

um make me look the other way or he won't be able  to control my narrative he won't be able to get

me and every single time I've been to a shows  in London New York they're all just I leave in

silence yeah like because you're right that like  misdirection where you've got me thinking this

thing yeah and then I go what the hell like it's  this constant like disappointment with myself that

I'm not as smart as I think I am oh that's so nice  it's always like what can I there's you know 2

000 people trapped in a room with me what can I  what can I do with them it's always it's a lovely

feeling to start with and that the section on  when you have the painting I don't want to give

anything away the painting is this in the show  that you saw in New York I believe it was New York

I've seen I've been to two London and New York one  with my family in London which was many years ago

about four probably I'd say four or five maybe  five years ago yeah and then the one in New York

I think was was it wasn't pre-pandemic it couldn't  have been yeah it was just before the pandemic so

I'm painting a picture that someone comes up and  thinks of a famous person and I start to I do a

painting and then it's upside down and I flip it  around at the end is that what you're thinking of

yes yeah yeah and the thing that I think stuns me  the most is how unbelievable you are as a painter

thank you very much and the fact you could do  that upside down you can paint such an incredible

image upside down it's also stunning um but that  clearly is describing what you've described there

where you've pulled in a love of painting yeah  I I think it's yeah I think all that's really uh

otherwise what's left you know just it's just hey  look at me aren't I clever and that's just not

you know that might be interesting  for audiences for a little bit

um maybe once and then that's that's kind of it so  I I yeah I bring what I can to it and I just make

I make sure the shows are about something else you  know showman is about how the things in life that

are difficult are actually the very things that  we share which weirdly was written just before

it was all due to go out before lockdown started  and it um was going to go out the first week of

lockdown and was assured about how the things  in life that isolated so actually the things

that we all tend to have in common which then gets  played out literally for two years during lockdown

um so I've always tried to make them  about something else something of value

um and I don't think I I love magic obviously  but I don't think in and of itself it has

tremendous value as a childish way of impressing  people so it's what you what can you bring to it

that will give it value and then I think  then you're into a much more interesting

um worthwhile area in your  books about happiness um

happy and a little happier one of the things that  surprises a lot of people is that you're not a fan

of goal setting and having spoken to you now I can  kind of understand because you have a much more

today this week do my best approach to life but  what's wrong with goal setting in your point

of view oh no there's anything wrong with goal  setting for short-term goals obviously you know

can be very useful it's it's the long-term stuff I  think we just get a bit hung up on it as a way of

as a way of life you know a friend of mine  um it's a bit of a always being a workaholic

um and he certainly buys an account when he was  younger was made to feel that kind of needed to

achieve stuff in order to feel valued you know  which obviously is what most workholics will say

so he decided he was going to build up a company  and and sell it and become a multi-millionaire

and that was sort of the goal and then did  spent and all the time that I knew him he was

building up a company and um sold it relatively  young and had a huge amount of money and then

she didn't know what to do with his life it was  miserable um and as she found himself going to a

support group with a bunch of similar millionaires  that had all made the same mistake and he'd sort

of missed the fact that actually it was the it was  the building up of the company that was is what

gave him a meaning in his life that was that was  what was important and it's that old thing isn't

it of you know the you know the arrival at the end  of the journey is just it might just be taking a

coat off and putting your bag down that might be  all it is it's not necessarily the destination

you know it's the you know it's the old thing  isn't it of the journey being what was important

but that was certainly he realized that um and  that really changed his life actually realizing

that what he thought was going to be important  wasn't important um plus how do we know what's

going to make us happy that so many years before  you know it was so terrible at gauging that

um we lose flexibility depending how we set  those goals but we become too rigid in them

and it's like playing it's like playing a game  of chess schopenhauer talks about this I was a

really good analogy that it's like starting  a game of chess deciding how you're going to

play and the strategy you're going to use and  you're how you're going to maneuver from the

start there is this other thing playing which is  you know life Fortune stuff that's going to throw

get thrown back at you so how how can you decide  those things why do we want goals do you think

it gives us a sense of certainty well we need  we it's about it's about moving forward isn't

it we need to it's important because we need to  navigate through life and in the first half of

life I think it's it's really important if you  didn't have that optimistic sense that you can

chase the castle in the air and somehow  get it just by setting those goals

I think life would be very difficult I think  actually it's I think it's important I think

it sure has evolutionary value I think like it's  part of our impetus so it's not a bad thing really

but like all those things we just need to check it  and just see its limitations I think a story I see

the goals that I had as a story that gave my life  meaning when I was yeah younger the meaning was

kind of misunderstood it was I thought if I got  the Lamborghini then I'd be happy and important

and worthy and shame would be alleviated but as  I as that failed me yeah I realized that um I was

gonna have to set about pursuing something else  well those are the two problems you either get

the goal yeah you succeed in it and then what or  you don't and you've failed I mean you're sort of

and the very thing that's giving you pleasure the  very thing that's giving your life meaning which

is moving towards you know building up the company  or whatever it is you're doing yourself out of

your your purposefully and intentionally moving  to the point where you can remove that meaning

from your life have you developed any coping  mechanisms for adversity chapter three in your

book A book of secrets is about the role friction  has the relationship it has with with happiness

and we've talked a few times about adversity but  is there any any sort of tools that you've learned

that you might be able to impart that have helped  you to deal with when life throws [ __ ] at you

well the big stoic thing of how can this thing  be fine and it's not they don't exactly put it

in that language but that's the language I found  how could this thing be fine so first of all is

what's happened which side of the line is it is it  within my control is it my thoughts and actions or

is it out of my control is it something out in the  world of course it's always the latter is always

something out in the world in which case how could  it be fine how could it how could that how could

it be okay that this thing is like that um and not  just to go oh it's fine it's fine it's not just

about saying it but to actually let that thought  sort of you know drip into the soul I find that

very helpful that's also partly just my  personality my partner's has a much more um sort

of anxious personality than I have and that stuff  doesn't help him at all um but it certainly helps

me um another thing there's a great book by David  Destino called emotional success and I thought it

was great he was talking about motivation and how  a lot of our tools for motivation are very sort of

top down in the sense that you know well if  you do this for ten thousand hours or you put

in an hour a day for a whatever um like a lot  of kind of work to change one habit and he's

talking about a bottom-up approach of there are  certain emotions that if you get them into place

they naturally create a more motivational State  and he he's a psychologist and his when he talks

about motivation that the way he's tested this  is talking about where you value your future self

and what your future self needs more than what  you need in the moment right so if you take the

example of are you going to study for your  exam are you going to go out and party well

the person that is going to not party and  study for the exam is valuing the needs of

that future self that's done well in the exam  more than the current self that sat there and

would like to go out right so he's taking that  as the sort of the world of motivation we're

talking so he sets up various um experiments  to see what can you do to maximize people's

uh you know the value they place on that  future self and the three emotions um

again and again which help compassion gratitude  and having the right sort of Pride about what you

do a good Pride for the stuff that you do well not  the bad sort of Pride where you go well I'm good

at this therefore I'm great at everything but just  having a a good sort of comfortable pride in the

stuff that you do well um so he would you know  experiments would be something happens outside

the room before the person comes in to do the  experiment that makes them feel grateful about

something and then they come in and they have  to do a task that's impossible but how long do

they spend trying to do it and they'll spend 40  longer than somebody that wasn't primed to feel

grateful before they came in and the Gratitude  has nothing to do with the experiment so

seemingly completely independent thing something  happens that make you makes you feel compassion

um and then you come in and you have to  do some task and you do it better or for

longer or whatever these sort of skills  are that the motivated person has more of

um one of the questions was uh uh how many  so is dollars but how many dollars like if

you could have a hundred dollars a year from  now or x amount now what would that x amount

be that would balance it out and it's normally  17 like it really makes no fiscal sense at all

but most people will say okay I'll take 17 now  rather than a hundred right a year from now that

seems to be the number that people go for but if  you're primed to feel grateful if you're if you're

asked the same question when you're in a state of  gratitude for something again totally unrelated

um it goes up to 31 that was that was a  great sort of uh by the by finding when

they did the experiment it averaged out  of 31 in other words people were valuing

the future needs more than the need now  if that makes sense it could actually be

shown with something as simple as that gone  well I read a bit of chapter 12 of your book

um was on exactly that and I actually said before  you arrived I sent it to my friends I sent that

one paragraph in your book about that that instant  gratification delay graph because it it when I say

it makes sense it makes absolutely no sense  yeah like I can't understand how gratitude

how making someone feel grateful with a completely  unrelated incident would make them choose to have

um more money well we'll make them delay their  gratification in life it does exactly and I think

the reason why there's no kind of rational link  because it's a sort of it's like an emotional

basis he's talking about an emotional heart that  then kind of spirals upwards because if you if you

if you find yourself acting more compassionately  which say just sometimes happens anyway right you

might just be feeling compassion you might  be feeling very grateful to somebody that

then affects that person's behavior and then that  feeds back and affects yours and there's a certain

kind of upward spiral thing that happens  that definitely puts us in I think a more

just a better kind of state than say when we're  feeling the opposite of those things feeling

hateful and resentful um so I do get it I I sorry  does that mean that people that are lowering

gratitude are more short-termist in their decision  making they probably binge foods that they

probably shouldn't have they probably make other  kind of Reckless decisions they probably shouldn't

make because of their own state of emotions and  gratefulness and compassion perhaps I mean it

sounds like you'd have to ask him I don't know  I don't think he says that in his book but I can

certainly imagine that again so if you're going  through your life feeling generally resentful

I can't imagine that person being very motivated  it's so interesting it answers actually a lot of

questions that I've had with like friends of mine  where I've wondered why they make such short-term

missed decisions but I think there's an emotional  question that I should really be asking which is

like how do you feel and we don't we don't often  pause to ask that we kind of assume that their

character is they are lazy or just stupid like  bad at decisions whereas really like go to work

on the emotions and you can change that which is  it's an it's a I thought it was a very uh yeah

very compelling way round of looking at it rather  than the normal top-down approach we come across

love uh-huh you described yourself as a  bit of a introvert and someone that likes

their own company yeah um sounds a little  bit like me what's your journey been like

with understanding love and then at 35 you  came out um what's that Journey been like

well I've had two long relationships and then  um a few little bits in between um and I think

there's definitely a lot of learning in the  first one that I think I've now brought to the

second one of course that's what we do is it's  next you have another relationship you bring all

those lessons that you can't you can't change them  and you're in one but you can you get to start

afresh the next time um we're quite different as  well it's not like we're we're not similar people

at all I'm I have that sort of a bit of emotional  Detachment that I can easily go to he is very

um engage and as as uh people the little on  the anxious side tend to be very sort of hyper

Vigilant about stuff so you know packing to come  to London to do this shows two very very different

worlds always leads to argument I'm kind of travel  light and here's another but we might even do this

we might need this we might need this bags and  bags bags so uh we see each other sometimes you

know as caricatures of ourselves because because  we're quite different in those in those ways my

kind of stoic uh whatever will seem to him just  sometimes just to be laziness or not really

um not engaging with something not that thing  not being not taking it seriously and for me his

his what I see is uh anxiety or impatience to him  is a strong sense of justice he has a real strong

sense of justice something's not right he'll  want to go and sort that thing out and fix it um

and I think love for me is  allowing that other person

to be another person we'd probably start off  our relationships just projecting everything

we need onto a person and we barely do them the  service of you know allowing them to exist as an

independent creature we sort of we just want  them to be the thing that we want them to be

um and I think if relationships are going to have  any longevity at some point that has to shift into

actually this person is a mystery and I might  spend the rest of my life trying to get to know

this person that that's I think that's okay and I  think that's also the same within ourselves in the

parts of ourselves that we're we're um alienated  from again the things that we just put outside of

the story um the the that sense of what the other  is of the great mystery you know it's there in

Magic it's there in within ourselves the sides of  us that you know we need to live more comfortably

with and in our relationships as well here is a a  great mystery that we sit down with every day and

have breakfast with and talk to and misunderstand  and disappoint and occasionally delight at each

other and and it's it's uh you know it's kind of  wonderful and sometimes it's hard work and and uh

but I think seeing your partner somebody who  could spend a lifetime getting to know uh

and as a source of Wonder and mystery I  think is a that's a very helpful thing one

of the messages that I took from that is about  expectations and being really conscious that

you keep your expectations in check because  when you don't frustration and unhappiness

um might Prevail and I think about this a lot  with my partner who's the complete opposite I

consider myself to be like very logical I need  to I need to understand everything I'm very

um maybe scientific in my viewpoint  whatever the opposite of that is she is

and so you can find yourself in conversations  where the basis of reality you're conversating

from is completely different yeah she will  believe that that a rock has energy and that

yeah and I will obviously not believe that but  we're completely opposites but that's also why

it works because there's not an expectation  that we become the other person she will tell

me something she knows I don't believe and at the  end of her saying it she will not wait for me to

nod and agree yeah because she knows it doesn't  believe and that's fine yeah and vice versa

and it's that's what when you sing except that  we're two different people yeah actually being

able to do that and her not trying to change me  into like a spiritual whatever me not trying to

turn her into a scientist yes allows for the  upside of that difference which is like I can

Marvel at the world she lives in and go oh that's  interesting I'm gonna try that you know what I

mean and also I think a big Allied to that is to  think of not which is such a a guy thing to do

isn't it it's not fixing yeah not um most of our  frustrations come from the fact we just haven't

really been heard or seen or understood during the  day so we've been bashing our heads against some

wall we come home and hers yeah exactly exactly so  we they come home and then just offload this stuff

and when because I I know I do it when my partner  does this to me but he sort of offloads all this

frustration and I'm sure you do it too it sounds  like you do is to go into this mode where we're

saying well it's okay it's probably just this and  why don't we think about it in this different way

and we're just doing exactly the same thing  they've had all day we're just not hearing

um uh but it's just not it's not an intuitive  thing is that you sort of that is such a such

an easy mode to go into um Darren are  you happy that was the name of your book

I think so yeah I think I think  as I've got all the happiness is

it was easy to say I remember being asked that  when I was single for a while um by Hugh Grant

of all people we were sat opposite each other at  dinner and talking about happiness maybe I was

writing the book at the time I don't know and um  he said are you are you happy though and it was he

was said it in a sort of a mood of like no one's  really no one's really happy are they um and maybe

just the way he asked it but I said yes and said  it very confidently and felt it very confidently

and he didn't think he didn't know what to make of  that uh or maybe he just didn't believe it and now

when you ask I still feel it's yes but I think I  think things are more complicated I think there's

a more complicated in relationships I've got older  um 51 and I think I think that's a good sort of um

you know I said things things just change the

currents of Life shift a little  bit so I am but I uh I think it's

it's a I don't think it's about happiness first  of all I think it's about meaning and it's about

you know things in life that are bigger than  you and what you how you throw yourselves into

those things which is what gives religion its  meaning you know that that need for Transcendence

or finding the thing that's bigger than you we  all need it somewhere because if you don't have

meaning in your life that's that's when you have  problems not really happiness is sort of um a very

difficult thing to pin down but uh and we can be  unhappy but it's when we when we feel meaningless

that it's that it things get bad um it's a bit  of a [ __ ] question isn't it are you happy

in many respects yeah you know what is it you  know things that used to mean the story of a life

it was something you couldn't say about anybody  until they were dying and look back over their

whole life you know it's meant our relationship  with God we weren't even supposed to be happy on

this Earth because of uh you know because it  was something that we could only have through

Union with with God it's meant so many things over  the ages but now it does just sort of mean a mood

um uh which is uh is it makes it sort  of a difficult one to answer but I think

I think Life Is Life is good it's just interesting  and sometimes difficult but you know ultimately

good way I think life is full of [ __ ]  questions and in some respects it's like

a form of misdirection the fact that I yeah  we never supposed to reflective questions are

actually valid because if I'd said what number  is Fork hmm you it mean you would say that's not

a valid question but because are you happy or  the questions like have you found your passion

there's an assumption in there that there's  one of them there's one passion you have to

go searching for it yeah all in loaded into  the question and nobody nobody when you ask

those questions pauses to think of whether the  question is valid and then the the frustration

we encounter when we can't properly fit into a  invalid question I see I see that causing so many

young people so much pain because culture pops  up these like questions you've got is it love

well is it love I mean it alludes to a yes or  no answer and then I have to know that your

definition of love what you mean by that because  as I was saying I love peanut butter I love my

dog I love my mum and it's all very unhelpful like  this is why I love going back to what you said the

star like how'd you feel nice open question which  allows for a bit more maneuvering yeah I think

people are tormented by these um questions yeah  yeah your show there's nothing like it that exists

in the event space really on TV I mean I prefer  doing it seeing it in person because obviously

cameras can create certain Dimensions but seeing  it in person just bends the mind because it

makes almost anything seem possible in life I'm  talking about sales and ambition and creativity

and Imagination if that's possible then anything  can become possible and I think that's a cause of

great inspiration um so I would just employ anyone  that's listening to this if you're looking for a

once in a lifetime very unique experience that  you can't get anywhere else they've got to go

and see the show they've gone I really mean that  I'm not just that you didn't tell me to say this

I really need you there you know yes yeah you'll  never know yeah but thank you but I really really

mean that it's there's nothing like it so great  day idea great family idea so I'm definitely

going to come what can I expect that's different  from the other shows that I've been to well it is

it's got a real heart to it this one you get all  the feels as some people say um it's uh it's I

it's also got I mean it's got the best if this is  all right to say the best reviews of anything I've

ever done in 20 odd years which is nice to know  because it is such a personal show so that's a

um that's a lovely thing that has been received so  well um I do swear the old the audience to secrecy

um so it's hard to go into details um other  than yeah it is about the things that connect

us as people and then how the difficult things  in life are the things that join us up it's also

show based on audience participation like like  they all are and I should say I I would hate the

idea of being dragged up on stage so I throw out  frisbees to choose people which means it's the

easiest thing to hand to the person next year if  you you know if it lands on your lap and you don't

want to get involved so there's no pressure to  get involved at all but it is a it's a big show

of audience participation and it's it's more than  More Than People expect I hope we always try and

make the show properly over deliver give you give  you more than you thought it would I'm so excited

I genuinely really excited thank you so much for  your time we we have a closing tradition on this

podcast we're the last guest asks a question for  the next guest and they don't know who they're

leaving it the question for oh fantastic I get  to see it when I open the books excuse me if I

take a while to read the handwriting um oh this is  for me right yes great oh God okay top or bottom

I can imagine I wonder if that was the question if  you could only speak with call C touch four people

for the next four years who would they be  I feel this is quite a yeah boring answer

but it's honest so my mom uh partner probably  number two really good friends Sharky and Stephen

I'd have to include Jenny in there somewhere so  maybe they could alternate weekends or something

um yeah friendships really mean a lot to me now  as I get as I get older I'm not old but you know

getting older I have a really I think it happens  something like on your 50th birthday or something

suddenly your friendships really mean a huge  amount to you um and they didn't before they

always did but just not in such a conscious why  what changes why I don't know it's just a real

real sentimental like valuing of them Nostalgia  as well like really um I just find myself just

that was kind of yeah sentimental sort of uh  leanings um and my friends just suddenly they've

obviously always meant a lot to me because I've  been my friends but suddenly even more so I love

meeting up with people I haven't seen for years  now I love doing that much more than I used to

um so yeah I'm that's it Mom partnering  up a couple of really good friends

um uh that doesn't include my dog is I forgot I  didn't forget I had two dogs but I have a clear

favorite which is uh unfortunate for the other one  I was only thinking of doodle and I forgot about

humbug it's okay I said people so yeah so sorry  that's not a very clear answer but lovely question

thank you so much for your time thank you for  the inspiration thank you for coming and doing

this you're someone that I've been honestly quite  obsessed with since for the last 10 years watching

on TV watching on Channel 4 coming to your shows  and stuff so it feels like a real honor to get

to speak with you and as I said I read your book  in the jungle it was very much the basis in the

jungle you didn't say that yeah yeah so I took  it took a brief I took a suitcase out to the

jungle and I was I wanted books on happiness and  yours was on the Shelf so I took it was it that

one was a happy it was the yellow one yeah happy  um and I'll be honest I this sounds like because

I bought it not knowing it was you interestingly  yeah yeah and then when I saw I got to the jungle

and I saw the name on it I couldn't I had to  Google to check it with you because I couldn't

believe you'd written a book on happiness and you  get this a lot don't you yeah I do and a while

back I got a um the only time I've ever dropped  my own name trying to get a restaurant table

um in SoHo and I did and I got the table  suddenly we have felt ah I pulled that off

went in and then at the end of the meal the  waiter said would you mind signing one of

your books so yeah of course and he came back  with angels and demons oh [ __ ] it's fantastic

[Music]