If they're laughing, it's fine. If

they're not, it ain't. This is the

Russell Howard we have never seen

before. When you're low, it leaves you

mentally fragile, but then that makes

you work hard and go again because you

know the excitement you get from making

them laugh. It's an unhealthy treadmill,

but at the end of that treadmill, there

is this incredible cherry. That's what

happiness is. figure out a healthier way

of being the best you without it being

so draining to realize what you have.

There will always be sort of shimmering

lights of hope in in the misery. But

sometimes somebody has to help you find

them. When he died, it was just this

sledgehammer to your heart where you

just go, Jesus, one of the one of the

one of the good souls isn't here

anymore.

Russell Howard. I've watched Russell

Howard on TV for years and years and

years. And of all the podcasts I've

done, Russell and this conversation was

the most stark difference between the

person I've seen on TV and the person I

had a conversation with today. I think

your mind is going to be blown. He's got

a new Netflix show coming out called

Lubricant. And the reason it's called

Lubricant is because he believes comedy

and laughter is the lubricant that

allows us to deal with the pain of life.

And we talk about the pain of his life.

We talk about everything. And in this

conversation, there's more tears.

Recently, I did an episode on this

podcast with Jimmy Carr, and the

resounding feedback we got was, "We've

never seen that Jimmy Carr before." I

have a suspicion, in fact, I know that

people are going to say the same about

this conversation. This is the Russell

Howard we have never seen before. And

it's an incredibly inspiring, valuable,

vulnerable Russell Howard. It's the side

as a Russell Howard fan that I wish I'd

seen more of. I have a feeling you're

going to be really surprised. So,

without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett

and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope

nobody's listening, but if you are, then

please keep this to yourself.

I'm funny because of my mom and I'm

determined because of my dad.

You said that, right?

I did say that. Yeah. I felt like that

was the beginning of a riddle. Like you

were a sort of a Gollum figure trying to

understand. Yeah.

Can you explain it to me, please? Um,

my mom is a a warm, twinkly eyed little

lady who is inadvertently funny all the

time, has no idea of her power, is just

naturally

uh bright and joyful. Uh, if you ever

feel that you're kind of getting used to

hotels and the humrum life of, oh, here

we are in another place, um, take my mom

with you. separate rooms and watch her

reaction when she goes into a hotel room

because it reminds you of how you used

to be.

Oh, really?

Jesus Christ. They've got kettles.

They've got tea bags. Look, they've got

a trouser press. Look, like she's so

excited and happy by the world. And

my dad is um a very quiet, unbelievably

determined man who, you know, when we

were kids, we'd sort of he'd have us

mixing cement. Um we'd be sort of like,

you know, building kind of walls with

him, plastering as a kid. I remember

watching my dad plaster and he was

trying to keep this kind of wall up and

he screamed to himself, "Come on,

David." And sort of even at 11, I was

going, "Ah, that's a bit much." Um, so I

have these kind of two very different uh

dominant personalities that kind of

raised me who I love dearly both, but

they are very very different. You know,

my dad challenged me to a press up

competition recently um at a family

barbecue and he beat me. He did um 68.

He did. Yeah. And he's uh uh 65 years

old and

uh yeah, remember this story. This sums

my dad up. U I had a school report when

I was 11 and the teacher said um what

Russell needs to know is that he can't

do everything. And I kind of go home and

you know that moment you give the report

and your dad looks and he goes well this

mean you go well the teacher says I I

can't do everything. He goes why did you

say that? I I just think that I can I

think I can do anything if I put my mind

to it. And my dad goes you got to go

down that school now and tell her that.

So I have to walk back to the school.

You're joking.

Yeah. and I kind of go in and go, "My

dad says I can do anything and you're

not allowed to say that I can't," which

is a pretty, you know, incredible thing

to do, but, you know, made school tough.

So, yeah, very different.

What about brothers and sisters?

I have a brother, uh, Daniel, who's an

amazing human being, very funny. Um, um,

and I have a sister who is an actress

who's, uh, also incredible. Um, they're

very different as well. Um, I'm very

close to my brother, not so much to my

sister. We sort of all my brother we

just played football together as kids

and oddly Kerry is in the same world as

me now and is kind of a BAFTA nominated

actress. She was in um him and her BBC 3

and super talented and yeah a great

human being. The we're they're a lovely

bunch but very strange. My family it's

like being in a Pogue song when you go

to kind of Christmas parties around our

way. Do you know what I mean? Do you

have

It's sort of you know those like I

remember weirdly the funeral of my nan

and granddad.

Um it was separate. It sounded like they

it was a pack

but but I that feeling sometimes when

you go to a funeral and you're so proud

to have the same blood as the people in

the room. I kind of feel that whenever

I'm back with my family in the West

Country. there's there's such a blessy

and energy to them that I adore and feel

so kind of delighted to be part of, you

know, it's kind of

Yeah.

Um Jimmy Carr said something to me which

I've been waiting to ask another

comedian. There's a stereotype that

comedians are funny because they're

depressed. Yeah.

But Jimmy Car said that's wrong. He said

you've really got to ask a comedian who

in their family is sick. M

um because he says that much of his

comedic genius or his desire to please

people came from um trying to make a

family member happy or trying to ease

moments of tension in the family dynamic

when he was younger. Um do you resonate

with that at all?

Yeah. Yeah. Completely. um that

my dad my dad is, you know, is

successful and super serious, but used

to lose his mind watching kind of Billy

Connley or watching Have I Got News for

You. So, he would like howl with

laughter and we sort of figured out the

way to break dad's serious energy was to

make him laugh, you know? So definitely

it was kind of there's no tension if

people are like I've got a line in my

new special which is laughter is the

lubricant that makes life livable and it

it you know it really it soothes

tensions and it's a bandage that gets

over cracks definitely you know and then

it's sort of this thing that you when

you discover you you know you can make

people laugh it's so addictive and you

can literally create your own energy and

like you do an arena there's 15,000

people there you'll orchestr ating this

almost societal orgasm where they're

kind of like lost in laughter together.

It's you feel like a necromancer, man.

It's the best. And I think Jim's right

in that it that initial spark comes from

probably I'm thinking of other comedians

as well as myself. It's sort of that

sense of, you know, like I've got a lazy

eye. So that was a, you know, so I

became funny to deflect and did jokes

about my eyes to get to stop people

looking at them. And then you kind of

realize, okay, this is kind of cool. Or

if you're a bit thick or if you're not

good at football or you don't fit in,

you can kind of

sort of

rebrand yourself in a strange way

through humor. And you can you can

create your own

kind of energy. That sounds kind of

wanky, but do you know what I mean?

Of course I do. Because there's there's

also another stereotype which is that

people who are slightly um slightly

bigger but tend to be really bubbly and

have funny personalities in a comedians

as well which is

would fit that kind of idea that it's a

it's a tool of deflection.

Yeah.

From something else, you know, they

don't want them to focus on or

um you talk about it being linked

heavily linked to self-esteem as well.

And you're

Yeah.

Yeah. What's odd, the further you get

into it, you realize that it's so much

fun doing standup. Um, and it's such a

wild drug effectively because you're

doing these massive gigs in front of

2,000 people and everyone's laughing or

15,000 people or you're in New York,

you're doing a gig in Finland and it you

can't quite get over it and then as a

consequence it's quite hard to sit down

and watch the TV and be normal and um so

you're kind of chasing that sort of high

and it's about the real the real skill

is trying to figure out the sort of work

life balance. you know,

I'm speaking to somebody whose uh house

is above work. But do you know what I

mean? It's like see the only the only

way around it is to sort of integrate it

really.

But like I don't know. I've been doing

standup since I was 18. I remember doing

the first gig and it felt like it was

you sort of discovered a mechanism

through which you can do life that

everything sad, good, happy, weird,

peculiar can go through this sausage

maker and you can then uh understand

life, figure it out. But also that's a

very strange way to to do it because you

you you're

using the stage to kind of um uh dissect

yourself, but the aim is always funny.

But I don't know of a better way to do

it than to kind of make sense of the

world. And the funny thing about all

comics is guaranteed if they find

themselves in a strange situation,

sometimes a heartbreaking situation in

life, there's always a little part of

your brain going could be a bit in this.

And it's that horrible sort of, you

know, sort of disease that we have that

you can't ever truly be there because

there's always a little bit of you,

whether you're Seinfeld or, you know,

Taylor or Bill Burr or Chappelle or

whatever, your brain is going, "Yep,

there's stuff in this." Do you know what

I as you're having the as you're getting

beaten up or whatever your brain I

remember getting mugged in Brighton when

I was 18 and and this this guy shouted

to me come back I'm a police officer he

clearly wasn't and I said no you're not

you're a monster and as I said it I went

that's going to be quite funny I reckon

like but I'm literally running away I'm

terrified but my brain's going yeah

probably build a little bit about that

and it's I think all all comics that I

know have that thing where

reality is always auditioning to find

its way into your set.

Wow.

That could uh that could get out of hand

and you could start willing misfortune.

This is the weird thing. Yeah. Well, but

well, exactly. But it's that's the

problem. Yeah. Well, you haven't got any

jokes or anything. You're just walking

around dressed as a clown going to like

a [ __ ] zoo. There's got to be

something in this. But yeah, you're

right. But it it's sort of about keeping

life open a bit and keeping the third

eye open really probably that's the same

of all creatives where you kind of you

or all people really like you have to

notice the thing the things that niggle

you and if you're talking about them

whether it's you know like in my last

special I had a big bit about kind of

young women selfharming. I couldn't I

was like what? Like one in four women

self harm. And I was like couldn't get

my head around that. And I just knew I

had to talk about it on stage. And

yesterday I saw this lady complaining

because the foam in her cup wasn't at

the top of her cup. And I for the rest

of that morning I couldn't I couldn't

get my head around it. Just how do you

get the confidence to complain about

your foam not being there? And I know

somehow that's going to end up in a show

somewhere. That's the way I kind of

operate really. I sort of see these

little things or and they kind of I make

a note at my phone and they gradually

kind of make their way, you know.

Interesting.

It's like collecting dots from society

and then figuring out later how they

form.

Well, I think that I know Chris Martin

does a similar thing where you just make

little notes of lyrics and Woody Allen

does similar thing. Woody Allen will

just write a load of stuff and then he

puts it in a um a drawer and then when

he comes to write a film, he just gets

the drawer out, empties all these notes

that he's been making for the last 6

months and figures out what the film's

going to be. And I that's a lot easier

than sort of writing from a blank page

because you can then finesse your kind

of thoughts in the field when you're in

the laboratory as it were. You said

something there which I find really

interesting and I think is there's kind

of um almost analogies for life within

which is after you've come off stage to

thousands of people in an arena you then

go home and have to like sit in front of

the TV. Yeah, the the antilimax

dealing with like that consistent high

then low. It feels like a lot

emotionally cuz that's like a huge

adrenaline surge and then even like

physiologically that it feels like that

must be non not natural

have a consequence.

Yeah, Christ that's deep. Let's hope it

doesn't. But yeah, you're right. It's

it's

yeah it every comedian when they're in

the middle of a tour needs a really

really good box set like do you know

what I mean? It's like you need

succession

you need madmen you need something to

get you through because yeah it's sort

of

otherwise like if you're trying to

maintain that high um you know if you're

sort of drinking and you're doing drugs

or whatnot it's going to make it harder

to be

that version. It's kind of like whereas

if you're a musician, you can still sing

the song that they want you to sing if

you're on kind of coke or like or you're

pissed up. It's kind of hard to be a

good comic for a long time

if you're kind of, you know, on drink

and drugs. So yeah, you have to sort of

develop this kind of way of like

reintegrating your life.

But also it's nonsense as well. It's

just it's it's fun makeelie like and and

and also what's important is kind of you

know going for a meal with your wife and

and and hanging out and seeing friends

and and there's joy in that you know and

you see you you you have to you have to

try you have to plan fun. I think that

that's the crucial thing you have to go

right we'll go on holiday and we'll go

to that restaurant and we'll watch this

film because I think like you say it's

the sitting and the and the waiting that

is very difficult to compete with the

the innate rush that you get from

standup

because of what you do professionally.

Do you find it harder to enjoy the

sitting and the waiting and the meal

where you're sat there just you know and

the holiday where you're sat on the deck

chair? Not like I normally what I love

about holidays, I don't know what your

feelings are about them, but by the end

of like 10 days, I'm ready to go back to

my life because holidays remind me of

how much I love my life. And that's the

thing. So, you need to have that kind of

I'm a real sit in the sun, you know,

read some books, um, listen to podcasts,

whatever, and then kind of go again. But

I like the recharge of it. If there was

a if there was a thing where you could

literally plug yourself in like a mobile

phone, I would happily do that on a

beach. Do you know what I mean? And then

kind of go again. But I'm not really a

when I'm in holiday mode, I'm not really

a culture vulture. I'm kind of a sit

down, plunk, book, sun, relax, get ill

because I've been putting it off. Do you

know what I mean? Your body just kind of

gets a bit sick and then you kind of go

again. How about you? Do you are you a

relaxer?

Uh, I think I'm a forced relaxer.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think my girlfriend

is the reason why I would go on holiday

and I think she's also the reason why I

would be present on holiday and she's

the reason why I'd go and look at like a

castle or something.

Okay.

But castle

like whatever she would want to look at.

But I think if it was just up to me, I

wouldn't go and I wouldn't do it. And

even if I did go, I wouldn't leave the

hotel room.

Yes,

there's like strong evidence for that

because whenever I've gone to speak in a

country or whatever, I don't leave the

hotel room. I have no desire to do

anything but just be on my phone or

laptop. So, it's pretty sad, but I

think, you know, that's why it's

fortunate that I have a girlfriend.

Yeah. But it's also that thing as well

of like you clearly

with the job you do, you clearly love it

as well.

I love it. Yeah.

So, that's the thing. If you're

fortunate enough, there are so many

there are billions of people who are who

are who, you know, live for the weekend.

Do your job, punch in job you don't

like, get your money, smash your

weekend, try and find your fun. You're

one of the There are so few people in

this world that truly have a thing that

they do that they get paid for that they

adore. You just got to get hold of it,

man. And just like there's no shame, but

it just seems peculiar to the outside.

You got to be how obsessed you you get

about your job or I would get about

standup or there was a documentary about

the comedy store um on uh Sky recently

and I watched it. It was incredible. It

was a beautiful kind of summer's day and

I smashed the whole thing. was one of

the best days I've ever ran in my life

because it was incredible and it evoked

this kind of the comedy store from the

sort of the 70s and the 80s and Jay Leno

and all this and it just you know I was

like we need a time machine we need to

go back to to those times at the comedy

store but because I love standup and I

kind of you know it it's you have to be

with people that understand your

passions because you can't fake it. You

can't go let's go to the castle if

you're not a go to the castle guy. Do

you know what I mean? But you're right,

you can be you can have help to look at

the castle

and then you realize when you get to the

castle that this is a really nice

castle. Yeah. I wouldn't have come had

you not

completely.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um

we're not staying for ages at the

castle, right?

I don't want to It's not an Airbnb. Um

but you started writing. So on that

point of finding your passion and

pursuing it, you started writing jokes

at 14.

Yeah. Wow. You've done your research.

Yeah. Yeah. I had an old computer and uh

yeah, I kind of I watched a Lee Evans

video with my mate my mate Craig. Um,

and uh, it blew my mind because when I

was a kid, stand up really wasn't on TV

that you'd have like a Billy Connley

tape. Uh, you'd have like Have I Got

News for You is a big show or Bottom or

uh, um, Shooting Stars. It was that kind

of era, but Standard wasn't really a

thing. Um, and he was the first sort of

person that I'd seen who kind of was

just funny, wasn't an alpha, and I was

like, "Wow, he like it was mindblowing.

I just I think I could be that's sort of

a bit like how I'm funny like you know

what I mean? And um me and Craig just

wore that tape out. We just watched it

over and over and over and um and I

didn't tell anyone about it. I just

started writing these little kind of

jokes and routines and ideas

that um none of which were any good but

it just became like my little it was

like my little fun place to go to every

so often goes I'm going to write some of

my jokes.

Did you perform them to anybody at that

age? My first ever gig was in Bristol, a

place called Virgin Murf, and I took all

these jokes that I've been writing since

I was 14. And I whittleled it down to my

best 20. And uh I did it there at Virgin

Murth. I followed a guy uh who was

eating a banana with a spoon, singing

the theme tune to the Sweeney um and uh

another bloke that was sort of like his

act was to punch himself in the face.

So, in a sense, it didn't really matter

how bad my 14-year-old stuff was. Um but

yeah, so that was it. And then I kind of

some of it stuck, some of it didn't, but

it was all like I had this bit about

like how did Captain Kirk get through

the entire I wrote this when I was 14,

but how did Captain Kirk get through all

the Star Trek episodes without once

flicking Spock's ears. So that was one

of my first So and I sort of think it's

all right. It's not bad.

It's not bad.

But that was the first joke I ever kind

of told.

And one of the things I found quite

peculiar in your story is that your your

dad um really pushed you to give comedy

a go. Yeah.

And that that seems of all the guests I

sit here with, the thing that has

typically made them um famous or

wellknown or successful,

they their parents were usually quite

against it and would much rather have

them got a quote unquote real job.

Yes.

So what were you doing at the time? Um,

and

yeah, why why was your dad supportive of

it when, you know, at a time when that's

probably not considered a highly

profitable, high chance of success

career?

Yeah, I was working at the RAAC in

Bristol. I had a part-time job. Um, and

I was also doing standup and I because I

started standup at university and then

finished my degree, went home and uh was

just kind of doing probably three gigs a

week

for, you know, 50 quid a pop or like

sometimes 100 quid a pop, that kind of

thing. and um uh alongside this kind of

like shift at the RAC

and it was I was kind of like I'd have a

gig in Lincoln and then I'd have to

drive back to get to work and it was was

kind of like knackering and my dad

basically I remember weirdly not to name

drop but I was talking to Matthew

McConnA about this and it's a very

similar thing where his dad when he told

his dad he wasn't going to become a

lawyer he was going to become a comedian

um um an actor His dad said, "Don't

halfass it." And that was a similar

reaction to my dad. My dad basically was

like, "Right, if you want to do this,

you're 21.

Go for it. Give yourself a year. Don't

stop. Put everything into it." And then

if if it's not happening in a year, you

stop. You get a proper job. And I kind

of I I really respected that option that

he gave me. Do you know what I mean? It

was like, "Oh, be fine." It was like,

"Don't [ __ ] around. properly go for it.

Don't do three gigs a week. Do five gigs

a week. Just do that and then see where

you are in a year. And

um I was at the Edinburgh Festival. I

had about like eight days left from this

kind of like contract and uh my now

agent saw me at the Edinburgh Festival

have like a really good gig and he kind

of said, "Oh, does it always go that

well?" And I was like, "All the time?

You mad?" Yeah. Um, but I was I was

doing lots of sort of improvising and

stuff like that. It was quite hit and

miss back then. And then we went for a

went for a meal. He gave me they used to

have a a thing called the Comedy Network

where it was like 30 gigs around

universities. And that day he booked me

into these 30 gigs that were at the time

I still remember the money. It's £150

per gig spreading out into November. And

but to work for um a comedy company

called Avalon. one of the biggest kind

of comedy producers in the in the UK and

then he signed me and so it it worked

and then I kind of moved to London and

kind of you know slowly kind of kept on

keeping on. I really I liked the

deadline that my dad gave me. Do you

know what I mean? because it was kind of

and I re I really really respected it

and he he had this amazing quote on his

office that that said something like I

think it's by te ts Elliot or te Elliot

that said those who dream by night in

the dusty recesses of their mind wake in

the day to find that all is vanity but

the dreamers of the day are dangerous

for they act upon their visions with

open eyes and make them happen and that

is at the core of my dad so he's kind of

quite disciplined but he also has a [ __ ]

it go for it. But yeah, I just went for

it. But also because I loved it and I

didn't love working at the RSC and I

didn't I'd finished my degree and I knew

what I wanted to do and I just I just

worked my bollocks off, man. I did every

gig you can imagine. But loved it. And

my brother used to come to them. We

traveled down to Brighton to do 10

minutes and uh you know we we'd have to

sort of bunny hop the car to Reading

Station because we didn't fill up. And

you know it was it was real kind of fly

by the seat. your pants stuff, but just

the best. It was the best. It was like

it's the best night out. You go to

Plymouth and you, you know, it's a

six-hour round journey, but you do 20

minutes and it goes great. And then the

promoter says, "Oh, we'll get you back."

And you're like, "Brilliant." I go back

to Plymouth, you know, and um

yeah, it sort of all worked out.

something so interesting when I speak to

successful comedians because it's one of

the like purest forms of like insanely I

say insanely but like if you were trying

to reach a lucrative outcome one of the

like insane paths uh one of this most

insane pure followings of one's passion

because it seems to be the case that you

follow your this passion which doesn't

promise to ever pay you that well Yeah.

Or promises no chance of success and you

follow it for years

50 quid

and then I mean I speak to the

successful

but when you look back on that period of

your life and and if I was to say like

what are the what are the key things

you've you've identified hard work as

one of them but what are like the key

things that made you

get here when so many won't get here?

hard work, luck, um

natural talent,

um perspiration,

um um

but mostly and I would say luck is a big

thing. Luck and hard work are the big

big ones and and taking your opportunity

and having little kind of moments and

always listening to the crowd as well

because it's sort of that thing where

certainly as a live comedian, you can't

[ __ ] people like that. There is you

get a tangible answer every time. The

laughter is yes. The silence is no. You

just can't [ __ ] with that. Like that's

that is the there is a truth

to the to the gig. If if they're

laughing, it's fine. If they're not, it

ain't. And

that's the big thing really. It's just

kind of, you know, all great comedians

listen to the audience because they're

all that matters. And

you can be critically lorded, you can be

um you can win awards, you know, but

ultimately if if you don't hear

laughter, you won't be here. And it's

and you have to have new stuff. That's

the big thing. You have to you have to

make them laugh and constantly

constantly renew yourself. That's the

thing.

Um to kind of to stick around.

You make the audience laugh. They all

burst out laughing. They clap. They say,

"Oh, you're amazing." after the gig,

they say, "We're going to rebook you.

You're the best person ever." Does that

impact your self-esteem in a positive

way?

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Imagine that. But

yeah, it's Yeah, it's the best, man.

It's just But that feeling when you do

the Brighton Comedia and you're 20 and

you do 10 minutes and it goes really

well and Steven Grant, who is still the

booker at the Brighton Comedia, says,

"Oh, we'll get you back for a 20." That

journey home does the best. or someone

says, "Are you going to do the we're

going to get you back to uh to host uh

the Lincoln student night?" And you're

like, "Yeah, do you want to do it

monthly?" "Yes." And you build up this

like little following in Lincoln because

it's

it's it's of course your self-esteem is

just up there because you feel like

you're

a youth team footballer that's breaking

into the first team. That's how it must

feel like. You feel like you're kind of

Phil Fodden and you get these little

opportunities. It's probably similar

thing with footballers like what makes

Phil Foden probably that he has natural

talent. He works his ass off and when

there's opportunities, he's kind of

clinical enough to take advantage of

them. Do you know what I mean? And learn

from mistakes. That's the And comedy is

is constantly about learning from

mistakes because you go you do new

material doesn't work, you you tweak it,

you tweak it, you tweak it until you get

something that that that kind of makes

them laugh. We would one would then

assume that comedians have like just

tremendously high self-esteem

if they're laughing. Yeah. But then what

the the interesting as well is how

quickly it crumbles down if it goes

badly and I've got a friend of mine Al

Pitcher who's a comic in Sweden and we

talk about this a lot where when you're

low it irrespective of what you've done

before you just feel like like such deep

deep shame that you've been unable to

kind of make them laugh. Um, but then

that makes you work hard and go again

because you know the excitement you get

from making them laugh. So it's this

it's an unhealthy treadmill but at the

end of that treadmill there is this

incredible cherry.

Deep deep shame just because it's

embarrassing. It's like you've you've

tried to make like even this I'm really

enjoying this. It's really fun but it's

very serious and we've got like a little

mini audience over there. I can hear and

every little laugh my brain's going

that's good and when they're not I'm

like [ __ ] hell. Yeah, totally. Just

because you sort of feel like you know

it's sort of that weird thing for me

laughter is truth and victory and

silence is failure but then the

interesting thing about that is when you

watch a performance you actually realize

that of of another comic you go wow

there's real power in the silence

actually which took me a long time to

realize cuz I was very initially

just keep it up. Keep it up. Keep it up.

And then you kind of, you know, you you

watch someone like Chappelle, um, for

example, and you go, he's a real master

of the silence. And you don't you're not

you don't lose

him. Do you know what I mean? And you're

not away. You're captivated. But it

takes a really long time to feel that

you've earned the right to captivate an

audience.

But there's captivation in silence. But

who [ __ ] thinks they're captivating?

That's the hardest thing I find is to

kind of you can never know whether

you've been captivating or dull because

the sound is the same. Do you know what

I mean? It's sort of that weird thing of

like

I mean I don't come off stage going was

that captivating or dull.

Um but hopefully Yeah.

It's really interesting. So when when

you have conversations like this because

there is no like there's not huge

amounts of laughter because it's a

serious conversation.

But I love chats like this. This is the

best man. But yeah, go on. I that's what

I was basically asking was um it's when

we when we have comedians come here,

we've had Russell Kane, we've had

obviously Jimmy Carr. Um they do make a

lot of jokes even before we're filming.

I think you know Jack will like put the

microphone close to Jimmy Carr's mouth

and I think he said something like um

just keep it like a fist away and he

said that's what your mother said.

Yeah. And it's almost like a um a

Tourette's of humor which is and I

wonder how you kind of get through life

like that and it almost feels like

uncontrollable.

Yeah. Honestly, that is the best

description of it. Like there's a joke

that I think sums up comedians brains

the best by a brilliant comedian called

u Mitch Hedber. He he's no longer with

us. One of the greatest comedians of all

time. And th this joke sums up the brain

that comedians have where and I'll do

his impression if there's fans of Mitch

out there. Forgive me for this, but it

works better if you try and do it as

him. He kind of goes, I mumble, man. I

mumble a lot off stage. I'm a mumbler.

So, I'll be with my friend and I'll I'll

say something and he'll be like, "What?"

And I'll say it again a little bit

louder and he'll be like, "I didn't hear

you." And then the third time I'll say

it and he still can't hear me. So I'll

say it to him, but now I'm yelling at

him, "That tree is far away."

And that's what it is. It's this thing

in his head that's gone, "Oh, the tree

is far away."

And he It's a joke about the mania. What

you know, I was saying that trees over

there. Look, but it's not. It's further

away than And it's that thing. The

amount of times I've been with my my

wife and you sort of say something and

she go, "What? [ __ ] you." Just I saw

this bin in Primrose Hill the other day

that genuinely said protect um our

birds. This was the line on the bin.

Protect our birds. It was a picture of

like a a bird and respect their way of

life. And I just went into this thing of

like I don't know you show respect to a

[ __ ] but like in my head I'm just

kind of like I didn't know there were

disgruntled chaff inches all over

Primrose Hill. I've never seen that on

the news of just kind of going today a

bird was the victim of of uh you know of

of of somebody attacking it. My brain

was just like worring around with this

and she can see I'm I'm kind of full

zombie eyes just gone. She what you on

about go [ __ ] Ben was resp

that's kind of the the way that comics

brains are. I think that you you spend a

lot of time playing around in your head.

Um and then you kind of go, "Oh, that

that might be something." You know, like

we were the other day um I was talking

to a friend about sperm donors and

somebody had had uh there was this

website and on the you could sort of get

you could get your batch and one of them

was like um uh you know he was like 6'4

Swedish keen reader and um you're really

good job and you're like yeah that's

exactly what I'd say if I was trying to

flog spunk. Do you know what I mean?

You're not gonna kind of go bit of a

loner comes in every Wednesday. We've

had to stop him. But but my point being,

we were having a chat about sperm doning

and my brain was sort of off in this

sort of fantasy land.

Where's the bit kind of like

Well, I just found it so funny that I

don't know any true 6'4 high achieving

intellectuals that kind of just going to

nip out to spaf into a pot. Do

you know what I mean? It doesn't exist.

But

everyone's tinder tinder bias.

Totally. Right. But the point is you you

spend a lot of time in that kind of fun

zone. Um, and that I think that's the

brain that a lot of comics have.

Speaking of that brain spiraling

when after you've done a gig or you

know, can you remember a time where you

you like go on Google, you go on the

Daily Mail or something, you Twitter and

you look at articles of what people are

saying of you and it has a really

profound like negative impact on your

what you think about yourself and you

start to question yourself. I don't do

it. Like I I

came up in the days of uh MySpace and

whatnot. And that was I've never been on

Twitter. I've never been on Facebook. Um

uh I do a bit of Instagram. It's the

same with reviews. It's a very funny

thing. You get a fivestar review and

your brain's like, "Exactly. Yep.

Correct." You get a shitty review and

you're like, "What the fuck?" And you

realize that you have to pay no heed to

it. the only I mean it's flattering and

it's great and it's lovely to get nice

reviews and anyone who says otherwise is

bullshitting but it's with social media

you you you can't

it's too much to kind of

seek validation from people particularly

in the world that we live in at the

minute where you're having to check to

see if you've been correct for you're

not going to be right for everybody and

and some people will not like a joke or

some people s you know you just have to

try and stay where will stay where you

are. So, I I've definitely had times

like that when I was younger and it just

crushes you and you realize actually all

I'm doing is paying attention to the

really negative things that people say.

Um, and there'll be like, you know, one

out of 50 that's super horrible. Um,

rather than focusing on on the kind

things and you realize actually my brain

focuses on the negative and you go,

"Yeah, they're right actually." Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am that. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. Correct. Correct. Correct. It

just doesn't make me

uh a better, more functional human

being. It just it hurts. So, I don't do

it. Do you know what I mean? So, I just

kind of But people must have said to

you, your agents, your manager said,

"Oh, get on Twitter. That'll help."

Yeah. Well, what what I do, what I love

about social media is I like making

things and then putting it on there and

so putting clips of standup or the TV

show or whatever. But I I I I don't I'm

lucky. I have a I if I want to do

comedy, I can go to a comedy club

and it's a dark room and I can howl or I

can scream or I can be silly. I can do

whatever I want. It's in a comedy club.

Social media is the worst comedy club in

the world

because people aren't there to laugh. Do

you mean everyone there is there to

laugh and there's this sort of lovely

bonding experience. We're here for a

reason. Whereas social media, some

people, most people in the world are

just up for a hoot. But some people are

are are looking to be to be angry or

they're looking to be enraged. So it

just seems naive to put humor into such

a volatile club. Can you imagine if you

if it was a club called Twitter, right?

Hey, do you want to come play Twitter?

Can you imagine how hard that comedy

club would be? Do you know what I mean?

And so I just don't I don't bother with

it. But I like making things that are

finished and then putting them out. But

I kind of literally email them to my

agent then say, "Oh, we should put this

bit from the show on." I don't even

know. I haven't got my login. I don't

know. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

Way to live.

Yeah. But but but and but and also maybe

it's because I'm 41 and I kind of came

up in an era where standup was still

playing clubs. If you're if you're a

young guy now, um it must be completely

different. And there's loads of kind of

great comics that have kind of come up

through social media um or through

podcasts. And I love that because

there's particularly podcasts, I think,

with like young comics, there's a real

air of punk about it where you kind of

going, I'm not going to wait for TV to

give me anything. I'm going to make my

own thing and then people gravitate to

that. And uh and it's it that's your

thing. And and you you can't mess with

that. Whereas I love that. I love the

fact that people aren't going to be

waiting for TV to anoint them. But I was

very lucky that I was just doing live

gigs. And then when I was 26 after

having done standup since I was 18,

somebody said, "Do you want to go on

TV?" And I kind of went the traditional

path as it were and kind of social media

grew alongside it. But I was never I I

never needed it, which is not to say I

couldn't have been bigger if I

cultivated it, but the content I like

making exists in the club and it's

finished when I do a Netflix special or

it's finished when I do a TV show. It's

it's in a state of flux when I'm in a

comedy club. Um it's in a constant state

of becoming. And the problem with social

media, it makes everything finite and

tangible. And sometimes it's not.

Sometimes jokes evolve or routines

evolve. If you put it out there, it it

might be rubbish or it might be

illconceived. It might upset people. But

by the end of it, having worked in it in

a comedy club, it might say exactly what

you want it to say. It's it's a really

sort of sort of holy space. The comedy

club versus versus Twitter. Why should

you drink Hule? We're going into the

fourth quarter of the year. Diets are

dropping off. We're becoming lazier and

lazier. And what tends to happen when

when our diets dip and we we start to

become less um compelled to go to the

gym is yeah, we get out of shape. We

start to feel low energy. We start to

binge eat bad things. And Hule is the

antidote. It's nutritionally complete.

So, you get everything you need for your

diet in a drink. You get your 20 grams

of proteins. You're going to get your 26

vitamins and vitamins and minerals. It's

low sugar, high in fiber. It really is

the cure to a lot of the health issues

that we see in our personal lives, but

in wider society. If you've never tried

it, all I'll ask you to do is give it a

try. And if you're like me, then you

will like the World Berry, ready to

drink. You'll like the mac and cheese,

which is just selling like absolutely

crazy, unsurprisingly. Um, you'll like

the cinnamon, and you'll like the banana

flavor. Those are my recommendations. I

know a lot of people love the chocolate

flavor. Let me know. Try it. Get

yourself healthy. And send me a message

on Instagram. Tag me on Instagram as

well on your stories if you do drink,

try it out, cuz I I sometimes upload

those tags. and let me know which is

your favorite flavor. Can't wait to hear

from you.

As a comedian, do you ever feel a sense

of imposter syndrome?

Yeah, I think I don't know any great

comic that doesn't talking to Billy

Connley. Billy Connelly used to get

nervous.

Billy Connelly was worried that the

audience wouldn't love him, that he

wasn't worth the evening. Billy

Connelly. If Billy Connelly is thinking

that, then you know, you know, all of us

are. And it's I think if you get to that

stage where you're like, "This is going

to be great. I know it's going to be

great." It probably won't. You have to

have a healthy degree of of of imposttor

syndrome

in order to be the best version of

yourself because you have to kind of,

you know, you have to burst into that

party and be the best, funniest you

because that's what's on the ticket.

That's the the thing. And the only way

to do that is kind of hard work, you

know. Um,

but to to to just rock up, for example,

to an arena tour having done no kind of

warm-ups, it'll be fine. It [ __ ]

won't. Arrogance destroys standup. You

kind of have to you have to go to small

clubs before you start doing a tour to

kind of know you're okay to get rid of

that. And without imposter syndrome, you

uh you don't grow as an artist. Do you

know what I mean?

But it can be deal tough to deal with

psychologically, right? Because is it it

sounds like it must be similar to living

with a sense of like self scrutiny which

can be quite unhealthy. I don't I don't

know.

Yeah. Yeah. What the I guess the

the key thing is to you've got to I

think you have to leave on on your own

terms. Do you know what I mean? as in

stop. There's a there's a while where

this won't be healthy forever because

it's a str it is a strange way to live

with that.

Do you feel that? You feel like it won't

be

Yeah. Yeah. Just because you just kind

of go there would just come a time where

you're you're just you're not as sharp

as you once were and you're like ah fine

I'll just go work in local radio. But

like like not that's not a dig at anyone

in local radio. You do important stuff.

Keep those weather checks coming. But

doing kind of arenas

for a long time is, you know, I've been

doing them since like 2012 now. And that

is a crazy level of pressure because you

sort of do we do I do them in like a

month-long block in the UK and it's kind

of

right okay,

you know, and then you get through it

and then you're like, okay, go again, go

again. And that isn't necessarily the

healthiest way to be forever.

Does it have mental health implications

on you? Because like if you're living

with that kind of internal fluctuation

all the time and that

anticipation that those feelings of

self-doubt that you know they say that

anxiety in particular is like concern

about the future. If you're constantly

thinking about the future, that moment

in that arena is do you feel anxious at

all? Well, the funny thing is the only

time you don't feel anxious is when

you're doing the uh when you're doing

standup, but weirdly that's the that's

the rest bite. Um, but the leading up to

it, it's nerve-wracking, but as soon as

you step on the uh on the stage, you

kind of you know exactly what you're

going to do and it's fun. It's the most

fun in the world. And then it's the but

the leading up to it and the afterwards.

Was that right? Was that fine? It was

good. Right. Fine. You know, I think you

sort of just make your peace with it.

And you like you say it's it's me it

leaves you mentally fragile but I don't

know of another way of doing it.

Do you have you suffered with anxiety

though?

Oh yeah massively. Like it's sort of but

I think it's sort of that thing like

right I have these gigs. If I don't do

this work I'm going to look like a fool.

People are going to boo me. There's

going to be anger. Blah blah blah blah.

So you go. So that fear drives you to

write and perform and get a show that's

good enough. Right. And I've not found

anything that was a useful motivator.

But like you say, it's a tough way of of

being. Like Johnny Wilkinson, I remember

seeing this about him. Johnny Wilkinson

kicked the uh winning um I don't know

rugby, but the winning

World Cup kick.

World Cup kick. Yeah. Right. Um and as

the ball sort of soared over, apparently

he said to himself, his brain went, "You

nearly missed that." as it went over

like and he's won the World Cup and the

next day he was training and he was

kicking goals again to ensure that he

didn't make that mistake and

unfortunately

for him that's what makes him

magnificent you know what I mean and it

and I think it's sort of that thing

where you go the older you get you can

try and adapt it and try and figure out

and you know and we're all in a constant

state of becoming as regards our sort of

mental health and trying to

um figure out a healthier way of being

the best you without it being so

draining. But he scored the winning

goal, the World Cup, you know, and it's

sort of

it's kind of shitty, but he but but that

that determination is what sort of made

him. And it's kind of

I guess the thing is it's about kind of

ensuring that you have enough kindness

to yourself around that so that you kind

of give yourself a break from time to

time

and that the overall picture is happy

that Yeah. Yeah. But but but I don't

know of a a better motivator than fear

to make good stuff. Like if it if it

exists. I mean what do can you recognize

that? Do you have what what is there

another thing that you have?

I I guess excitement if you could turn

fear into excitement that would be a

healthier way of doing it.

Yeah.

But I just don't find it as oh yeah so

much fun because we'll go there and it's

going to be great.

But then you wouldn't do the prep,

right? As you say, if I excited, I

wouldn't I'd probably neglect.

Well, that would be the thing. So that

So you'd have like six months of joy.

Yeah.

And then you do the thing. It would be

[ __ ] awful. And then whereas at least

this way you have six months of tension

and then you have joy and then the kind

of joy lasts throughout the tour

and then after the tour

and then after the tour you go back to

fear

to get there. I but I don't know like

it's but I I don't have the answers and

I I I don't know what works for other

people. But for me it is that and it's

something that I'm trying to address

which like

living in fear too much

living in fear too much or putting too

much responsibility on the thing but I

don't know of another way and like you

know and I'm sort of you know seeing

people and trying to figure it out but I

don't know

what motivates you for example.

It's a I completely get it. It's a

trade-off, right? If you want to achieve

the goal, you need this. Unfortunat I

always think this. I think I think

everything has a cost.

Yeah.

Um and everything good in my life that I

love

comes with a cost. It might be it could

even be a financial cost or it could be

some other type of sacrifice. And those

that have risen the highest in certain

professions, it's so obvious to see the

cost in their lives. It's much more

obvious than everyone else. So, I sit

here with my guests. I see it with Eddie

Eddie Hearn. He's built the number one

boxing promotion company,

but he never ever sees his wife and

kids. Yeah.

And he's like it's like unsatisfiable as

a human.

Yeah.

You know, that's why his book is called

Relentless. And I well that's the clear

quote unquote cost potentially. Um and

yeah, with what you're saying being an

arena performer,

one would think that you spend a lot of

time in a certain mental place which is

uh not always great.

Yeah. But then I was just thinking then

I was thinking about

the the fascinating thing about life is

you have these so for example we did 10

nights of the Alberta Hall.

Oh wow.

Which is like a world record. It's

mental. It was extraordinary that kind

of little me that used to sit in the

back of mom and dad's um Ford uh fiesta

watching the raindrops go down the

window that I did 10 nights at the Alba

Hall is mental. Um and it was fun. It

was brilliant. was great, but it was

like you're playing snooker, you know,

get all the reds, then then knock the

rest of them down, done. You know what I

mean? But it's that lovely kind of

controlled snooker brain. Joke, joke,

joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, joke. End

of the show. Hooray. Yeah. Go again.

Right. But it was, but it was fun that

exists from a sort of dopamine level on

a very similar level as being on my stag

with my cousins in Vegas and hearing my

cousin Lewis tell a story. And so I

think it's my way of figuring it out is

to have as many of those

dopamine hits of joy, whether it's good

food, good company, um, travel, books,

music, whatever.

So that you're kind of constantly

feeding yourself like because if you

just that's the big realization I've had

that if you only try and get happiness

from work for me it doesn't work to sit

around and and hope that your life

outside of work can compete with this

joy that you get from work. The only way

you can do it is to surround yourself

with people that you think are fantastic

or experiences that you think are

fantastic. And it can even be little

things. It's just like, you know,

like we we did some gigs in Dubai and we

went to a water park every day and I'm

41 and I went with my my friends who are

all big big lads and we were on this

rubber dingy and we kept going down this

slide. We honestly it was it was the

joy, the silliness of the day

led into the the fun of the gig. And I

remember reading a thing about Chappelle

that Chappelle when he's on tour, he

brings his pals. He brings friends along

so that he's

he's sort of living

the joy of life is connected with the

joy of work. He's never sort of sat

backstage with his notepad kind of

waiting for an hour and a half to go on.

And that's something I'm trying to do.

I'm trying to kind of involve people

more in in kind of work and be less kind

of you need to stay away. I need to

concentrate, you know,

to blend the two. And you kind of

totally Yeah. And you talk about this in

the same way with you at the a couple of

moments ago you talked about living for

the week and then kind of like

compartmentalizing that and then having

your life on the weekend and how that

doesn't feel like the best way to live

either because you have five days of

misery and then two days of like pissed

you know getting trying to find the

but I think also the pandemic has

recalibrated a lot of people that you

actually go we were kind of locked away

from each other and we were locked away

from experience and the happiness of

something appearing from nowhere. Those

magical nights down the pub or watching

football or listening to music or having

a barbecue with friends where a a moment

unintentionally becomes a memory. And we

were kind of robbed of those social

moments that created memories because we

were sat with this disease lurking, not

knowing where our lives were going to

become. We kind of felt like we were

sort of immune from something this this

heavy happening to us. And it didn't. It

happened to everybody. And it feels like

because of that

we we are now kind of coming out of the

cave as it were with a real desire to

um

find as much

majesty in the universe as possible.

that that I genuinely feel a lot of

people like audiences post pandemic like

even British audiences who are you know

by a stretch the the the toughest crowds

in the world like by a stretch is that

that lovely English come in [ __ ] make me

laugh you know what I mean whereas like

in America they're they're already up

like you do comedy clubs in America they

stand up as you walk in you know what I

mean and but but British crowds now

because people are people want

connection and they want experience

because it was kind of robbed of us. So,

um it feels like it could be a a really

glorious time and like like you were

saying with the the tour that you've got

planned. What a fantastic way of doing

that rather than just uh I could just do

you could just do a Q&A but you're

putting you know you're making what

sounds like a really pulsating live

theater show. It's going to blow

people's minds and

that's what I want to do. That's what

audiences want. There's a friend of mine

called Alex Edelman who said, "I like

stuff that's ambitious and finished."

And that's kind of where I want to go.

And I feel like that's where audiences

want to be. They want to see something

that's going to rock them, you know, and

and and blow them away. What a target to

aim for to a thing that's going to be

I'm gonna try and make a thing that's

the best night out that anyone's ever

had.

One of the things you said was um just a

couple of moments ago was that you've

seen someone to help you with uh that

kind of fear living in fear state that

we described. What do you mean by you've

seen someone? are just a bit of therapy

to um yeah try and uh

um have like sort of little coping

mechanisms, you know, you sort of just

get you get far enough into it where you

go maybe just have a bit of help now um

to recognize kind of moments of mania

and how to kind of manage them a bit

better. So nothing super exciting. It's

not a shaman

or um you know, it's not any kind of

Iaska or or mushrooms. It's just a bloke

in a in an office.

So, what was your intention when you

went to bloke in the office? um just to

kind of make it a bit easier so that you

weren't

loading it too much so you can still

like you know

work if efficiently without it becoming

debilitating because I think that's the

thing probably a lot of people suffer

from that by using fear as a motivator

sometimes

you're probably losing 20% of your

potential through kind of um panic. So

yeah, it was sort of God, I sound like a

[ __ ] robot when I said that. But you

know what I mean? It was sort of that

thing of like

just trying to figure out, okay, is

there another way of doing this?

Was that?

Uh yeah, it's but even recognizing when

you're um

just a bit fullon and just kind of go,

"All right, just calm down." But I'm a

real sucker for like little quotes, man.

Or I was weirdly I'm interviewing Will

Smith on Thursday.

Oh man.

Which is mad. For 10 minutes. I've got a

10-minute interview with Will Smith.

I'm so jealous. They they emailed me and

said because we have the same publisher

like Will Smith's coming to town. I was

like, "Can I get on the podcast like

he's got no time?"

Yeah.

I'd have loved 10 minutes.

Well, but this is it. Well, I'll sneak

you along, man. Let's do it. See if we

can double up. Well, but but I was

listening to the beginning of his book

and um it's a brilliant story about his

dad made him and his uh brother build a

wall. And it's just this this is very

very simple analogy. You've probably

read it. It's just brick by brick and

that's particularly when you're making a

TV show and you're writing topical jokes

sometimes. Well, it's sometimes it's

really hard to make stories interesting

and to write jokes about things that are

going on. And in that instance this

week, that really helped me brick by

brick and I'm able to kind of go, okay,

yeah, cool. I can I can get stuff from

that. You know, I'm I'm very much a from

a philosophical point of view or a

therapy point of view, I need pointers

and tips to make me better. I'm not a

enjoy every sandwich kind of a guy

because it's a [ __ ] sandwich.

Like I, you know what I mean? Like being

in the sandwich just like it's a [ __ ]

sandwich. Like I I I need I'm very much

kind of eastern philosophy of like okay,

how do we how do we make ourselves

better? I love the idea of kind of sort

of self-improvement and being the best

you. Um, so I find quotes help that, you

know,

and even talking to somebody like that I

am like a bit of an expert, you he he'll

say something or you'll say something

and you kind of unravel a thing. and

even like what we're doing now sort of

having a chat about

the process and I have a um my friend

James Bay uh the singer we particularly

during the dur during COVID we spoke a

lot about uh everything and about

creativity and talking to like-minded

individuals about the pursuit of a joke

or a or a song or a uh any kind of piece

of art I find really really interesting.

I love it. I'm so interested in the way

that musicians create. I'm so envious

because they sit in a cool room or they

go to like this studio and they kind of

write and they jam and they riff and

they create a thing and then they

perform it. Whereas

the musicians I know are very envious of

the way the comedians create which is

you go in front of a crowd and you

create with not for. You know,

it would be like the comparison of like

Chris Martin going in front of a crowd

in Chisik and going, "It was all blue.

Nope." Okay. Uh, it was all green. Nope.

It was all yellow. Yellow. Right. I'll

do yellow tomorrow. And it sort of is

that kind of process. So talking to

different creatives or anyone who is

sort of an expert in managing yourself

is something that I find really

comforting or or you know

like

even I've really got to this guy Andrew

Huberman at the minute he's like a

professor from Stanford and there's all

these kind of

neural linguistic things you can do to

help yourself you know like cold showers

and all this and Wimhof breathing all

this kind of stuff.

Does that stuff work for you?

Maybe it's psychossematic, but yeah, it

feels like it does. Do you know what I

mean? You feel like you've done your

It's like going to the gym. It just

feels like medicine for you, doesn't it?

You always feel like no, no one enjoys

going to the gym, you know? I imagine

Arnold Schwarzenegger did, but most

people are just like, "Right, do it."

And it feels like a nice little tick for

your soul. And it just feels like

therapy is almost well, it's exactly

that, isn't it? It's a workout for your

brain or having a conversation like this

is a really nice workout for your brain

where we're both in kind of like a

strange dream like state where we're

kind of having a deep conversation. Um

we're kind of riffing but somehow

without planning any of this we're

getting to a deeper

place and yet it's very strange cuz

there's people driving listening to us

right now

which is very weird. Do you know what I

mean?

And well, that's the fascinating podcast

in the future, man. And but you're in

the now, aren't you,

Derek left there, but it's sort of that

fascinating thing that you let people

travel to work with you.

It's the coolest.

Yeah. Yeah. It feels like a huge Yeah.

Especially cuz it comes out on Monday as

well. Yeah.

Which is a particularly like interesting

day to be in their ear at 6:00 a.m.

Yeah.

But it's so funny, is it? What the

podcast you listen to? what your what

your go to

if you listen lock me up if you found

out like I listen to like serial killer

podcast yeah like therronos the trial of

Elizabeth Holmes like crime and serial

killers tends to be my like go-to

and you know what it's actually I

probably know why now because I'm so

fascin I do this podcast I'm so

fascinated by people in their psychology

and for me criminals and serial killers

are the most extreme and fascinating

amongst us so I would love to have a

podcast where I could interview serial

killers and be like why did you do that.

Do you know?

Yeah.

It's basically what I'm doing now.

Slightly different fascination. So,

it's just I I get so fascinated by them.

I'm watching these serial killer

documentaries trying to understand the

pattern in what made them like from

their childhood and their dad said this

and then kid on the playground punched

them and then they just started killing

people, you know.

Yeah.

So, yeah. What about you?

Sort of more fantasy football stuff

really.

No, I kind of um Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah,

it's cuz a friend of mine does one. Um,

uh, I, yeah, I listen to Tim Ferrris.

Yeah. And Andrew, uh, Huberman. Um,

those are my go-tos. Marin I really

like.

Yeah. Yeah.

She has some really great interviews.

Um, yeah, I love there's a brilliant

interview with Maron and Seinfeld, which

is one of my favorites. Like I really

got into Jerry Seinfeld during the uh

during the lockdown, which is kind of so

late.

Do you know what I mean? I just feel

like I've gone, "Hey, Radio Head are

good." Um but um but yeah, I kind of

Yeah, that's my thing. I like I like

hearing people that I don't know and

having my mind blown. That's what I like

about podcast. I'm not into serial. I

find it too

Do you know what I mean? Too

too icky for me.

What? And you call yourself murderinos,

don't you?

Is that the name? If you're if you're a

big fan, you're a murderino.

Oh, really? Wow. I fit in. Yeah. Um, one

of the things you you're touching on

there about these kind of practical

hacks and quotes and stuff that allow

you to kind of get to a better place

reminded me of something that I read

about you regarding your pre performance

routine and superstitions. Yeah.

Before you're going up on stage and

there's, you know, 15,000 people out

there and they're all got their arms

folded and demanding you to make them

laugh, what are you doing backstage to

get yourself in this state you you need

to to perform at your optimal? So if

it's arenas, we get a football and we

just have a kick around. Um

really?

Yeah. Yeah. So we just sort of do keep

you ups and you got to do 10 before you

go on stage

between Oh, okay. So

So me, Kumar, and Pete. Um and then

Steve and we'll try. We got to do 10

keepy ups before we go on stage. Can't

really do that if you're doing a small

club. Um there's a brilliant comedy club

called Top Secret in in London. And um

it's very very small. And before that

you I'm literally in an alley that

stinks of piss um looking at notes. So,

so it's it's always looking at notes,

thinking what you're going to do,

sort of trying to be calm to listen to

that inner voice that says, "Hey, you

could also do this." And that kind of

weird

kind of um funny that just appears from

nowhere. There's always the best way of

starting a gig. Um,

and that's it really. But there isn't

really a psyking up process. I I'll like

watch if I'm doing a big show, I'll

watch my friend who's who's supporting

me. Um see what get sneak in the back of

the theater or the arena and get a feel

for them and um and then just go for it.

Why keep you ups? Is that just a tra

tradition or is it like a

No, it's just it's sort of if you're

there, yeah, there's maybe it's just

that weird thing of like, right, I've

done 10, I can, you know, and then if

you don't do 10 the first time and it

falls, you got to do 20 and if it falls

30. So, do you know what I mean? So, you

have to do it and then it becomes this

weird uh like little thing. You just

don't want that in the back of your

head. You can't do a big gig going,

"Shit, man, I only did 24s."

So, superstition.

Yeah. like yeah and I just

and I kind of like I spend a lot of time

with my tour manager Kumar, the mighty

Kumar Kamelagarin

um and um just chatting about stuff and

just being kind of loose and sort of

yeah just sort of getting in the zone of

being silly and and just talking about

any old bollocks to try and sort of get

things going or you know it's like if my

brother comes on tour with me that's

always fun because it's kind of there

there'll just be a bit of a bit of

nothing kind of happening and like yeah

so I like sort of just hanging out and

chatting talking bollocks and um sort of

loosening yourself up really that's kind

of what I do beforehand.

This is a very um I don't know why this

question came into my head but tends to

be the kind of things I ask on this

podcast. What was the lowest moment of

your life?

What was the lowest moment of my life?

I think when my when my granddad died

that was like I was it was yeah it was

awful and I was incredibly lucky because

I how old was I think I was 36

when granddad died and um

he I'd never had anyone in my family um

well my cousin Shane had died when I was

18 and um but I'd never been to a

funeral so it was Shane and and granddad

So there'd been this huge gap where

nobody died and um you know this sort of

beautiful family that I belong to they

were all kind of there and my granddad

was sort of like unbelievably

special kind of man. He was 4 foot nine

and um just funny and warm and ju just

like a quintessential granddad. But like

he gr he got me into football. So I used

to watch football with granddad and

watch match of the day and he'd make me

and Daniel toast. You know that thick

white bread and he'd kind of like make

us some granddad toast. And he's just a

brilliant, brilliant

soul that just was s such a big part of

my life that he and they used to come

and see us quite a lot and whenever he

was there I don't know he was you were

just bathed in his love like him and him

and my nan just adored me and I adored

them and it was they used to have a

poster of of me on their uh on their

wall um and they used to and nan used to

keep all the all the reviews I'd get.

So, she'd put them up like and it was

just that lovely thing. There was some

really some lovely reviews and some

shitty ones, too. And it was just like,

man, why you don't take that? What are

you talking about? But but they and they

used to watch me on TV. And I come from

a a family where it's inconceivable

that that I could be on TV from from the

family that I come from. It's it's you

know it's like going to the moon but

because nan and grand said we'd watch

you on a TV mind we we'd watch it with

the volume down you'd have swear so they

would watch me when I was doing good

news or I was on mock the week with the

volume down

our wrestler on the box and just sort of

see me kind of like that and but they

were so

through every part of my life I I felt

utter love from my nana and my granddad

and they were around forever and and

it's it's that thing where

I don't know for whatever reason he was

like this sage and my there's a

beautiful photo of my cousin Shane who

who who died when he was he was 18 and

he was on a scrambler motorbike and our

granddad when we were about eight just

used to look at that and just go there

you go that is the bravest bloody boy

you've ever seen in your life. And it

was like

sort of a really interesting

um

story cuz he he had cancer and he died

of cancer and he he went on this sort of

scrambler and he did this race and he

was he completed it even though he he

was really not well at all and and our

granddad told that with such pride and

it was this beautiful story and that's

what and grandad and you knew Grer told

similar stories obviously not as

beautiful as that about all of us and

and um yeah when he died it was just

this sledgehammer to your heart where

you just go Jesus one of the one of the

one of the good souls isn't here anymore

and yet this is the the fascination of

life I was in Mexico and it happened and

my mom rang me up and said granddad's

dead I like

just low and

Um,

literally seconds later there was a

there was a Mexican man just going

and it was just like [ __ ] me, the

universe is funny, man.

So, it was like utter sadness and then

something

and it was um yeah, it was just this

weird like moment where you're like

going [ __ ] really really. Um, so

yeah, that was the that was definitely

an unbelievably low moment and yet

weirdly became

at his funeral this beautiful moment

where you were, like I said at the

beginning where you feel privileged to

belong to the blood you belong to. You

know, I've never done Who do you think

you are? I know who I am. I'm, you know,

I know where I come from and I know my

people and I feel proud to belong to

those people. Um,

and the funeral of my grandma was just

this reminder of the excellence of my

family and how proud and how much we all

love each other. So from that deep

sadness

came this reflection of my granddad and

you realize that everyone in this room

were there because of his brilliance. So

it was this kind of weirdly bittersweet

moment, you know. M and my cousin L um

my cousin Stuart wore a leather jacket

and looked like [ __ ] love joy and

nobody understood and everyone's like

why you wearing a leather jacket? Oh we

know we didn't have a suit and we were

carrying granddad in the coffin and

Daniel was like nice jackets due and our

[ __ ] shoulders start going because

it's like you know like oh mate and

everyone's like are they going to laugh

and we're like [ __ ] hold it together

hold it and then um yeah 6 weeks later

my nan died and uh it was horrific. Six

weeks later.

Yeah. 6 weeks later. And then we went to

the um went to the funeral again and

Stuart rocked up with that same leather

jacket and you're like, "Fuck me, man."

And you could see everybody just looking

down going, "God, don't laugh. Why is he

wearing a [ __ ] leather?" He literally

rocked up like Hasselhoff. You're like,

"Put a suit." But it was weirdly funny

and you could everyone go, "Fuck, he's

wear [ __ ] leather jacket on Jesus

Christ, what's [ __ ] wrong with it,

man." Um like it was all flapping and

that. Um, but and I I had to do the

eulogy for my granddad as well. And that

is something I put deep deep deep deep

time into to make it and I you know and

obviously you can't get it right. You

can't express what he meant to you. But

um yeah, that was the that was a long

answer to the lowest moment. But yeah,

they they say um people can pass away

from heartbreak.

Yeah.

is for for your grandmother to die six

weeks following

Yeah, I think Yeah, I think they would

they would, you know, joined at the hip.

Yeah, they used to just kind of

Yeah, yeah, maybe it was that it was

just kind of Yeah, it was just but also

there was such constants and I just

wasn't I'd never really been exposed to

death and it was just this kind of like

to for it to arrive quite late in your

life. It was just a real like whoa.

Yeah. And then you lo then and then

you've suddenly lost your nan and your

granddad who would kind of like we we

got like my nana is particularly just

such a lovely she's got proper sort of

blue gray owly eyes you know and she's

always started tucking her sort of shirt

down and she just come in and just tell

you little she goes just weird little

[ __ ] so I remember doing my dissertation