Deepo, thank you so much for doing this.

Welcome to Colombia.

>> Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

>> You founded the hedge fund division of

Invest Court. Was there any one moment

while you were doing that when you said

I want to build my own quant hedge fund?

>> Yeah. So maybe just if I may give you a

little bit of s background, right? So

the when I first started I I was at

Invesco for 20 years. Uh when I started

working at Invest uh initially I started

as an analyst supporting an internal

quantitative hedge fund effort and uh

at that stage I sort of got introduced

to hedge funds and got very interested.

So interested on the cognitive side was

sort of natural given the education and

my interest and uh uh I would say pretty

much throughout the 20 years stay uh I

had a fair amount of flexibility

uh in being able to work on different

kinds of strategies. I think it was

towards the end of that tenure uh where

I felt that uh uh because I had broader

responsibilities I was not spending uh

as much time on specific qualitative

strategies. That's where sort of the

interest to get back exclusively to

quantitative strategy sort of started. I

would say towards the last I would say a

year or two is where it was but pretty

much throughout the period uh I focused

on amongst other thing quantitative

research and strategies.

>> Can you talk a little bit about your

background in you know before founding

the hedge fund division of of invest you

know education I guess what it was like

growing up because you grew up in India

right? So I was I was fortunate from an

education standpoint. Uh I attended some

of the prestigious schools. So there's a

prestigious Indian Institute of

Technology. I attended that. Uh and

there's a Indian Institute of Management

which is again a a good school. And uh I

was sort of fortunate to have attended

both those schools. Uh I think it became

very clear I was very interested in

mathematics and programming and uh

somehow uh I think it was inevitable

that I would let end up in a

quantitative field uh not necessarily

hedge funds. I didn't know hedge funds

uh in the 80s when I was when I was

studying. So I worked initially with the

city group for five five and a half

years and

>> that was in India or

>> in Europe mostly in Europe not in the US

not neither in India. uh I started in

India and then I worked in Europe uh

various locations in Europe for about

five five and a half years. Uh that's

when I got introduced to Invest Corp and

uh Invesc ran uh some internal hedge

funds quantitative which is what really

attracted me to invest corp. Uh I guess

I was at the right place at the right

time. I started as an analyst and in

about five years or so I was the co-head

and co-CIO of a new hedge fund effort at

Invest Corp and that's how sort of I got

I took on a leadership role and then

developed the business along with other

partners as well in 2008

>> I became the sole head and the sole CIO

>> group I mean five years from analyst to

head of the division is pretty

>> I call it right place at the right time

>> pretty crazy the other thing And this is

something Dwayne mentioned to me and I

really wanted to ask you about this cuz

if I'm correct the hedge fund division

of Invest Corp was founded from um out

of the sale of of Gucci. Am I correct?

>> So the hedge fund there was a hedge fund

business when I first joined. Yeah. It

went through changes, right? It went

through changes and uh uh one of the

notable changes was the sale of Gujits

in the public, right? I'm not saying

anything that is not in public domain.

Uh and uh yes the the hedge fund effort

that I was charged with as a co-head

cocio sort of started around the same

time.

>> Okay.

>> In '9697.

>> Okay. Okay. And what was it like you

know so in those five years what did you

do? I mean you say right place, right

time and I guess you know there's an

audience of very driven young people who

are clearly interested in in in the

markets and in building um you know

asset management businesses or at least

working in the space. Um how did you in

those five years progress from analyst

to eventually co-heading the division?

So I think uh the way that sort of

effort started was the previous effort

uh which was already in progress was a

more mature effort when I first joined

as an analyst.

>> That effort was wound down and uh a

group of folks were identified uh to

head the new effort that started in

9697. Okay.

>> Uh that effort uh was being headed by

the chief financial officer. Okay. at

the firm. Uh I was working very closely

with the chief financial officer at that

time and with the treasury and so I was

one of the two or three senior people

who were sort of put on that. Uh I think

I just with hindsight it's been a while

back right? Uh I think I did have uh

very strong quantitative skills and uh I

think that sort of complemented the

other skill set and I think that was one

of the reasons uh where sort of that

opportunity came up

>> uh and then you have to execute on the

opportunity I guess right and uh we

executed as a group we executed it that

well. Yeah.

>> And uh that really helped progress the

effort.

>> And so what year was that? What year did

you start as an analyst there?

>> 93.

>> 93. And so in 98 you, you know, started

heading the the division.

>> Uh no, I was the co-head and co-CIO from

9798 onwards.

>> Uh I became a partner in 2000.

>> Okay.

>> Uh and in 2008, I became the sole head

and the

>> uh the CIO of that division. And so what

did the quant world look like back then

versus the 2000s, 2010s and then

obviously now today

>> the the quant effort uh has s obviously

sort of it has evolved right uh it has

evolved along many dimensions. I think

the amount of data

uh that is available today is

significantly more than the kind of data

that was available in the earlier days.

Right? So uh uh the data the statistical

methods that were used uh are

significantly advanced and also I think

just the sheer amount of research

uh that has been done in the field uh

you know I and my colleagues have done a

significant amount as well but clearly

the industry has developed industry in

those days was the hedge fund industry

was much smaller uh focused more on high

net worth individ individuals uh and

then today obviously it's last numbers I

read it's a $5 trillion industry so a

lot of that effort the research effort

has also sort of increased in that area

so I would say clearly on all of the

dimensions whether it's the amount of

data uh the kind of data that is

available uh the kind of research uh the

understanding of hedge fund strategies

today is significantly different from

what it was uh when I first started Now

uh that itself was an opportunity in

those days right so in the early days

because the strategies were not that

well understood.

>> So using a quantitative approach to

implementing hedge fund strategies

>> uh gave you an edge and I I guess that

sort of helped me and contributed to my

personal sort of professional growth at

the firm. Now what you mentioned about

the industry I mean it's still very

opaque but if you look back then and

compare it to today it's night and day

like I recently I was chatting to a guy

on Saturday and he was talking you know

I asked the question he said that's a

great question and it's funny the only

reason I'm able to ask that question is

because there's so much information out

there versus I can't imagine you know

90s even early 2000s I mean I think not

much was known and I guess I'd like to

hear about what sort of stuff you guys

at invest corp were doing um you know

late 90s early 2000s what sort of

strategies were you guys running

>> so I think the big change uh from a

quantitative research perspective I can

sort of focus on that happened after

2000

>> okay

>> right uh I would say the first few years

uh or the years prior to that was more

uh from my p personal perspective as

well as of the group that I worked with

was getting a deeper understanding yeah

because it was a relatively new

industry. Uh we were relatively new to

that as a group.

>> Yeah.

>> And uh so the first few years was spent

in developing a much deeper

understanding

>> of the of the industry. Uh I would say

2000 was a turning point where we did

see significant amount of institutional

interest uh into the hedge fund

industry. uh so pension funds globally,

sovereign wealth funds started looking

at hedge funds more closely. Uh I would

say starting from 2000 onwards and uh

that sort of encouraged me and my and

the team that I worked with to do more

quantitative research into different

hedge fund strategies because there was

very little uh research out there. uh it

is very opaque uh in those days

certainly much more than what it is uh

today and uh investors uh who were used

to quantitative research in uh long only

equities or fixed income investing were

looking for something similar on the

hedge fund side

>> and that really spurred a lot of

interest on our side to do that research

share that with potential investors and

I think did contribute to the success of

that division. over time.

>> So you're running you're running a b a

bunch of strategies at at um at invest

corp. I had coffee with Nishant on

Monday and he said you know you're also

heavily involved in the fund of fund

business. Um and I guess I want to

return to the first question I asked at

the start of this conversation about

spinning out right and and and building

Verser what is today a $ 1.4 billion

quant fund. Um, I guess take me to

that exact moment and what was it like

going from, you know, obviously very

successful heading the hedge fund

division uh of Invest Corp to to taking

that risk and building your own thing

obviously with founding partners but

still very much betting on yourself. The

motivation at that stage was to uh set

up on my own more to focus on

quantitative strategies only

>> and uh focus on a few niche quantitative

strategies. So that's what we do and

sort of that enables me to get into the

day-to-day working of the strategies.

Right? So I was sort of more interested

in in doing that getting back to actual

hands-on day-to-day investing.

>> Yeah.

>> As compared to necessarily managing a

larger portfolio uh with other PMs and

other strategies within that.

[clears throat] Right. So I think that

was the motivation. Uh I think I clearly

uh because I started that uh the

business here uh after a fairly long

career. I was sort of more realistic in

what I was getting into. So I knew uh

what are the risks that were being taken

uh and uh uh what I was getting into

right nothing sort of totally prepares

you for it until you actually go through

the process. But uh uh I think I had a

fairly good idea right of what it would

entail and so on. And uh I think is

really a focus on going back to

quantitative strategies only which is

really the reason why I had joined

incot.

>> Yeah.

>> I think that was the main motivator and

I looked at it and said that uh

>> we can set up a successful business with

like-minded partners. We could just

continue to do that for the rest of our

career. Yeah,

whenever I speak to someone who, you

know, worked at a big company and then

started their own fund, they always talk

about how aggregating all the different

moving parts together and, you know,

because you're not just running money,

you're building a business around it.

Um, they talk about how challenging that

was. And I guess, you know, obviously

you were very experienced before doing

that, but can you can you take me

through that? You know, what was it

like?

>> So, I think uh one of the activities

that I also did at Invest Corp uh when I

uh amongst several responsibilities

right being the head of the group was

seeding new hedge funds

>> so uh where you know we'd allocate

capital to uh upcoming new hedge funds

uh and uh uh so I had some experience

also seeing right how those uh evolved

and uh so I think the first uh thing I

would suggest setting up any business,

but certainly when you're setting up a

I'll speak more from the perspective of

a hedge fund, but I think it's true for

any business.

>> Yeah,

>> it is a marathon. It's not a sprint,

right? So, I think you have to view it

that way. So, you have to have a steady

uh speed, right? You can't be too slow,

right? Otherwise, you'll never get to

the finish line, but you don't want to

be so fast in a as in a sprint because

uh you'll sort of fail, right? Or or

complete much before the finish line as

well, right? So I think that's the first

thing. Uh the second thing is uh I think

very important is to know the value

proposition. So one of my favorite

questions every time uh I would uh this

is back in my days at invest when I was

seeding a hedge fund. Every time

somebody came in and said I want to open

up a new hedge fund give me some

capital. The first question sort of that

I would ask is uh what is your value

proposition? Because the last thing the

world needs is yet another hedge fund.

>> There are, you know, thousands, tens of

thousands of hedge funds,

hundreds of them coming up, uh,

thousands of them closing down. Uh, so

having a clear value proposition as to

what do you what is the differentiator

that you bring uh to the clients I think

is very important.

>> Yeah. Without that I would suggest to

people that do not even go down that

path because you know you will not be

able to differentiate yourself. Then

whatever amount of time and capital that

you think it will take to succeed it

takes at least twice as long and it

costs you at least two to three times

what you initially thought even with the

best made plans. So you have to be as a

founder or a set of founders, you have

to be ready to grind it out and uh if

you put too strict a timeline uh or you

have too short a runway budget from a

budget point of view, you're almost

destined to fail.

>> So I think that sort of has been uh the

conclusion that it always takes longer.

Uh you have to uh have a clear value

proposition. And I I think the other

thing I should mention uh which has been

constant throughout my tenure in hedge

funds is that the industry is constantly

evolving

and a lot of times when people say oh

you know the industry is at a at a it's

due for a major change. data set every

few years it has always changed

>> and uh so uh even the value proposition

that we initially started with you have

to evolve that you have to be relevant

in the environment that you are in and

adjust you can't constantly change but

you have to evolve in a very thoughtful

manner so I think those are sort of the

three or four points that I mentioned

are really the challenges I think it's

true for any business but certainly for

hedge funds that is based on our

experience at War.

>> Oh, would you talk about with regards to

evolution like absolutely and I um you

know whenever you read articles about

the pod shops and the war for talent and

all these different things um I think

that's just a natural that just follows

from these firms trying to ruthlessly

evolve and and I guess I guess I'd like

to hear about how you try to do that at

Verser. Um, obviously

you're running all these different

strategies,

doing doing well. Um, how do you as the

as the head of the firm wake up every

day and and and and have I guess a a

process for for analyzing the business

and thinking, okay, we got to do this,

we got to do that. What does that look

like?

>> Yeah. So I think the the way I sort of

look at splitting the effort is uh a

part of the day does go into structured

research meetings right so we have

products you have to look at the

performance uh we have to look at uh new

ideas that are coming up implement them

right so that's one part the second part

is you have to generate new research

ideas right so new research ideas where

you I have to use my experience uh look

at what's out there in the research and

I think certainly from a quant one of

the under appreciated aspects is looking

at the market. So I do spend a fair

amount of time studying the markets and

uh incorporating that into new ideas.

And then the third aspect is also

looking at ways how to evolve the firm

and evolve the business. Right? And and

it's not like

>> you sit every day and say look I'm going

to spend an hour thinking about what

right? So I can illustrate it with some

examples. So in when we started the firm

in uh 2013

uh around that time uh I actually got

introduced to uh cloud computing uh

actually by my son Nishant who you know

right so he was a undergrad at Princeton

in those days and uh we were starting

the firm and he introduced me to cloud

computing

>> and uh it made a lot of sense and I said

for a firm a small midsize firm starting

out do We have an edge in maintaining a

data center and maintaining

contingencies if the data center goes

down being a quad we need 24/7 right

literally availability of systems and

when I met in those days it was only

Amazon web services and we met them and

we liked it and we signed them up pretty

very early in fact to the extent that

very recent uh a few years back I should

say around covid time they did a case

study Amazon web services did a case

study on Of course we have a relatively

small firm as we were one of the first

firms right so that was again you can

call it lucky you can call it strategy

right but we sort of right place right

time I always say that right so we did

that I think the second evolution which

has influenced warser is use of

alternative data

I was invited to attend a alternative

data conference back in 2017 here in New

York City uh I did not have much

exposure to alternative data before that

I attended that event it was I think one

or two days and uh again it was an eye

openener it made a lot of sense right so

just to explain uh we do primarily

equities right different forms of

equities so in equities uh you have uh

fundamental data balance sheets income

statements right so you call it

fundamental data uh there is price data

right equity prices move during the day

you have tickmatic data volume order

book so that's technical alternate data

is everything else so a lot of it is

unstructured data like things like news

uh it's uh things like when there are

earnings calls uh those there are

transcripts written of those earning

calls you can apply uh AI methods to

analyze the calls and transfer convert

them into quantitative scores credit

card data satellite images uh weather

patterns uh and that has exploded now

right so in 2017 it was still relatively

new and uh I you know as it happened I

attended that conference it was a

two-day event I met with a few vendors

of course now the number of vendors has

also exploded there are at least 10 such

conferences that happen in a year in New

York City alone and uh so that's when we

started working on alternative data and

realized that alternative data is going

to be an edge for analyzing equity

prices uh or equity models going forward

and so we did that and uh I would say uh

the third thing which went along along

with alternative data was that the

traditional statistical methods uh would

not work as well. So we started using AI

and machine learning methods pretty much

in the inception of the firm but it went

together with using alternative data and

because we were using cloud services we

could scale up the infrastructure

>> uh in a in a very flexible manner where

we could use extra services uh servers

and computing power when we needed it

and shut it down when we didn't need it

right and that flexibility so a

combination of that I think was again a

part of our evolution so I would over

the last 5 to 6 years. So I think it's

just being open and receptive to ideas,

being sort of sensitive to what's going

on in the industry and being willing to

make the jump, right? In a in a

thoughtful manner, right? And uh making

an assessment of what we think will work

in the future, right? You don't always

get it right, but I think we've been

somewhat fortunate. I think it's part

fortunate, part strategy that we have

been at the front of some of these

evolutions in the last several years.

>> I mean what you say about

being early to cloud computing I think

that's 2013 thereabouts 2013 and then

that providing you the infrastructure to

you know build out you know an an

amazing research pipeline for applying

all these alternative you know applying

all these different sources of

alternative data. Um, that sounds like

either luck or genius or both. Um, and I

guess you talked a little bit about it

there where you I mean you said

applying these things and being very

thoughtful about them.

Where do you see the next frontier like

where where are your eyes right now?

Where are you looking I guess um for for

Verser's next evolution so to speak? So

I think it is uh it is certainly

expanding

use of application of AI and machine

learning methods to investing in

equities. Uh and uh that's really where

our focus uh continues to be. But when

we say equities uh we do different

variations, right? So we do single

stocks, right? We do what is referred to

as statistical arbitrage strategies. We

do that. We also do event driven.

>> Yeah. uh where uh these are companies

that go through mergers or being spun

off. Uh we do those as a part of our

strategies and we also do equity index

futures. Yeah. Uh as a part we also do

other futures but predominantly equity

index futures. So uh I think our big

focus right now is on expanding the use

of alternative data uh expanding the use

of AI and machine learning methods. uh

to that. I think that continues to be a

big focus area for us and especially I

think uh although we started work on

this much earlier uh with uh uh the

advent of chat GPT and the increased

focus on AI uh there's a tremendous

amount of research and tools that are

being available and uh that gives us the

opportunity to use those tools and uh be

able to further refine our products. I

mean you talk there about you know using

all the best tools refining your

products um that entails a lot of

research and you know I was talked to

Nishan Dwayne and also another partner

adversary Yash and he was you know they

all talk about how your team is you know

partially based in New York partially in

Mumbai um offices in both locations.

I guess my question is and and I asked

this to every boutique hedge fund

manager is you have all the big players

call it Citadel, Mill, Millennium, Jane

Street um and they're all able to they

all they have, you know, they they have

tons of money, right? They can hire the

best talent. Um I mean you look on the

news and you see the salaries of you

know internet Jane Street or or any one

of these other firms and they're getting

higher and higher every year. I guess my

question for you adverser is

how do you maintain uh you know how do

you attract the best talent to work for

you? Um how do you compete in in that

domain? Because I imagine it's it's it's

it's not easy.

>> Yeah. I think there's a the the implicit

question right yeah sort of there is

>> this debate on large funds versus small

funds

>> has been there for a very long time

>> right and uh so I I sort of uh address

that firstly right in a couple of

different ways right I think uh if you

look at innovation in other industries

right let alone hedge fund if you just

look at innovations in technology ology

or you look at innovation in uh in

medical medicine field, it's typically

the smaller firms

>> are the ones that innovate,

>> come out with either new technologies or

new drugs uh biotech firms and they then

get acquired by some of the larger

pharma firms or some of the larger

technology firms and uh uh the the

larger firms then sort of incorporate

that. Right? So there again I think we

consistently see and I'll address why

right but we consistently see that

smaller firms uh right so if you are if

you are a open AI right now they're much

bigger but when open AI first started

work and uh they had a partnership with

Microsoft again I have no idea why

Microsoft

decided to back open AI rather than I

think open AAI had what a thousand or

2,000 engineers at that point in time

Microsoft oft had over 150 200,000 I

think I've got the order of magnitude

correct even if the exact numbers are

wrong and uh Microsoft I I don't know

why but didn't say I'll allocate 5,000

engineers we'll develop our own chat GPT

equivalent right they didn't do that

right they said we going to work with

open AI which was a much smaller firm at

that point in time right

>> and uh and then you know so uh this

advancements were done and there are

other firms that have done that also

right so I'm saying this debate about

large firms firms having more scale uh

more technology more resources versus

small firms has been there forever right

but still small firms so why does that

happen right I think it really boils

down to uh motivation and alignment

right so uh again it's not true for all

large firms but it's it is true that the

larger the firm the larger the group

right uh there are more institutional

challenges to make a change within that

firm right there is so the word

bureaucracy does get used uh and once

you are a firm that has successful

products uh you tend to be more careful

and say uh why do I want to deviate from

something that has worked well and uh so

I think the nature of resources that

work for smaller firms uh tend to be

somewhat different from folks that who

work for the larger firms and I think

the challenge for smaller firms such as

Verser is to get the alignment correct

Right. So the environment that people

work in right so if we if folks who work

at vers when they work on a investment

problem uh they can actually see the

implementation from the

conceptualization of the idea to the

actual implementation and results.

As compared to that, if you are working

in a larger firm and you're working on

alternative data, for example, uh you

might be one out of 10 people working on

a form of credit card data that is being

used and uh you may have very little

visibility on the work that you do. Does

it eventually make it into the portfolio

or not and how does it work and so on.

So there's a siloed because it's a much

larger firm. There's a much larger

setup. So I think uh secondly as a firm

right vers we are clearly also aligned

100% owned by the staff uh the founders

as well as additional staff. So I think

between that so it attracts a different

kind of people and uh we have been

fairly successful in attracting and

retaining uh good people and uh uh you

know using cloud computing enables us to

have scalable infrastructure

uh in terms of we are not certainly

lacking in terms of experience several

of the partners have 20 plus years of

experience so I think we're no different

in that a smaller firm firm in pharma,

biotech or a smaller tech firm being

incentivized to innovate and come out

with new methods, right? I think we're

very similar in that regard

for sure. And I remember cuz I wanted

to, you know, prepare for this and make

sure that I could ask good questions. So

I called Yash, partner adverser, and I

was and he mentioned something that I

found very interesting. He said, "People

who work with you rarely ever churn. You

know, they stick with you." And

obviously, you know, Jun on the junior

level, maybe there's some churn, but

people who stick around, you said

generally they really like working with

you. And I guess my next question is is

more about how how you spot talent,

right? Um because obviously

um adversary you can't run the same type

of business as a citadel or a millennium

where you can you know run a essentially

a a people business where you hire

people churns through them make sure

they're generating you know great

riskadjusted returns if they're not cut

them and you know you have an army of

pods and but the whole thing runs runs

well essentially right for you you're

you're you're a smaller firm and and so

I think that on some level. Uh any given

hire can be a huge value ad, but I think

um it's also a bigger risk, right? They

can do more damage than they could at at

at a larger shop. And so I guess from

your end as as the founder of of Verser,

how do you screen talent? You know, how

do you when do you you know, see someone

and say, "Okay, this guy's this guy's

going to be exceptional. We need him."

>> So I think uh we like I think with most

people, right, so we will start with the

hard skills, right? So the hard skills

that are relevant uh for what we do are

mathematics, statistics and programming

uh right because if uh if somebody does

not have those skills then really

there's not much they can do in a quant

for right so you start with that it is

necessary but it's not sufficient right

so we start with that then we also look

for people who have demonstrated some

ability to solve hard research problems

uh and the problems need not be in

finance or investment

Right. So uh right so for example we do

take people with background in physics

we do take people with background in

biology. Folks who have tackled hard

research problems where uh it entails

working with a lot of data. The data is

not very clean. It needs to be uh uh

sort of massaged in a in a using

statistical methods. Uh the signal to

noise ratio is very low. So there's a

lot of noise in the data. Uh those are

the similar to the kind of financial

investment problems that we do right. So

that's second. Third, then once you

start getting into the softer skills, it

becomes harder and it takes time.

>> Uh is to look for folks who are willing

to learn. Right? So I always sort of say

that look uh once you go through your

college education uh directly there's

very little of that you'll use in

certainly in the setup that uh a quant

hedge fund but you have to it gives you

the skill set to continue to learn right

so we need to determine whether people

are continuing to learn and are

have the ability to generate new ideas

that takes time right so that typically

takes time so when a person comes on

board it takes us you know a year or two

uh to determine that and last but not

the least teamwork. Uh different firms

have very successfully implemented

different structures. There are some

quant firms who are very successful as

silos where people don't talk to each

other uh but they're very successful. Uh

and there are firms where there's a lot

of collaboration and teamwork. The model

that we have chosen is of teamwork. So

the so again I sort of put that in the

softer skill set. So it's really a

combination of those. The harder skills

I would say are somewhat easier. You go

through tests etc. We do the same thing

and it always pleases me because there

are times where I ask folks who are

already working with us uh to suggest

some of their friends etc. uh who might

be uh interested and when they apply and

I ask them what happened they said no

the tests were too hard they failed

right it it really pleases me because it

says that look we are uh we are we have

the right amount of sort of you know uh

caliber of people that we are we are

looking for but uh the softer skills do

take time so I it typically takes a year

or two so we do get some churn I would

say in a year first year or two because

I think it does become clear uh whether

uh whether the folks who joined us have

the skill set and more importantly do

they have the right temperament uh

because there's a high pressure

situation right you you have to deal

with the volatility of P&L and again in

a smaller firm you're a lot more exposed

to those day-to-day

>> pressures than in a larger firm

>> out of all the things you said there the

one thing that stood out to me because

I've heard that you know technical high

bar um soft skills, teamwork,

but I think one of the things that I

don't hear talked about very often is

the ability to generate great ideas

and I guess I want to hear it from you.

How do you build a culture or how do you

invest in people so that at the end of

those one two years of let's call it

general training, they're able to really

contribute in a in a different way to

everyone else.

>> Yeah. So I think the the important thing

is for uh the senior folks the more

experienced folks right uh me included

to continuously emphasize in research

meetings that everybody's equal ideas

will be evaluated on the merit of the

idea and not who brought up the idea

because the human tendency is to say

look you're the head of the firm or

somebody is head of research and it's

their idea so we have to do that right

so I

I do think we have been able to uh put

in a culture like that. Of course,

you'll have to talk to some of the other

folks to see if they feel agree the same

way or not which is what I'm seeing. But

I I do get the sense right that so once

I I think that environment has to be

there where folks have to feel that if

if they come up with ideas and the ideas

get shut down. What I tell people is uh

there's no guarantee that all ideas that

you come up with will be implemented.

But what we guarantee though is that

every idea will be evaluated and full

merit with full consideration and that

that we commit as a firm as a culture is

to take the ideas and I tell people that

don't feel bad if your idea doesn't get

implemented eventually because it may be

because of a number of reasons. uh a lot

of ideas that we come up with fail

anyway. Right? It's not like uh every

idea that I come up with succeeds. Not

at all. Right? So the idea is to the the

whole objective is to get people in an

environment where they feel comfortable

in suggesting new ideas goes through a

evaluation process and people are not

penalizes for penalized for ideas that

may not work out. I would rather shoot

down an idea at the evaluation stage

than for it to get into the portfolio

and see a lot of damage being done to

the portfolio returns and I think that's

a continuous process uh that we do.

>> Absolutely. And you know Deepo we've

talked a little bit about your story um

um IIT which we have some people in our

financial engineering masters program

who came from IIT and I can tell you

they're top-notch. So, um, we talked a

little bit about your, you know, Invest

Corp and then eventually building

Verser.

We've got a lot of people here who are

very driven. You know, they want to

maybe one day do something like you're

doing. Um, what advice would you give?

I'll make it specific because I feel

like normally people ask these questions

very generally. Let's say someone here

wants to one day start a quant fund,

right? What would you do? tell me the

step one, step two, step three.

>> So, look, uh I think I started uh my

fund after uh 20 years uh at Invest

CCOP. That's certainly on the longer

side, right? So, when I I I've seen I've

been fortunate I've been associated with

several hedge funds uh from their

inception, right? So uh clearly uh I

think if I sort of go back right you

have to have a value proposition

right as the last thing the world needs

is yet another hedge fund. So there is a

value proposition needed right. So for

that value proposition

uh it will differ from person to person

right look I think it's much harder

right it's doable but much harder

straight out of college to have a value

proposition it could happen there have

been instances very few but I think the

path that most folks take is to uh work

for a few years uh get to understand the

business they get to understand

different strategies and determine

what exactly is their edge or what is

their interest what is their edge uh and

then go to that value proposition aspect

right but you have to start I would say

the first starting point is a value

proposition that let's say you're

looking to start a fund what is the

product and what is why should somebody

invest in that product I think once you

answer that then you can look at the

next steps right it's not just enough to

say I want to start up a new fund. I

want to start up a fund, right? What is

what kind of product and what kind of

edge will it do? And yes, once you do

that, then there are other things that

need to be rolled out, right? Where

would the initial capital be come out?

Uh if you're running a quant fund, it

also requires capital to build out the

systems and uh hire the initial set of

people before you get to profitability.

Uh I think there are well established uh

mechanisms for that right within the

industry. But each person if you go to

somebody and say I want to start a fund

uh give me capital. They're going to ask

the same question that I'm asking. What

is the value proposition? What is the

product? And why should I as an investor

bet on you? And the more convincing an

answer you have uh you are you're going

to be more successful in being able to

do that. Right? So I think uh there's no

sort of straight answer for you need x

number of years, 5 years, 3 years. It it

will differ. It'll depend upon the

individual. It'll depend upon the

opportunity. I have seen a big

variation, right? But very few people

just come out just starting off without

any experience, right? Very few. There

are some, bro, there are uh uh you

mentioned citadel, right? Look, look at

the background there, right? Certainly,

right? Remarkable. But there are very

few like that, right? uh I think most of

the times the pattern I have seen is

folks who have worked uh either uh in a

in a bank or in another hedge fund have

worked for a few years developed an

expertise

and uh feel that they have the uh

ability and the motivation to uh set up

and set up a firm uh on your own

right fortunately I think nowadays uh

there are there is a sort of a midway

mechanism as well where you could go to

some of the firms that you mentioned

right uh some of the build the part shop

model right uh where

>> I think there are increasing number of

people are using that as well

>> right so they may work at a hedge fund

they develop a skill set uh and then get

approach a multi-large multi-manager or

a mid-size multi-manager platform and

get capital to start trading that could

be a good introduction to also before

you decide to set up a an independent

firm right so there are lots of

different variations that one can do.

>> If you were a college student today and

I shall rephrase the question because I

think I so I was going to ask if you're

a college student today, you know, what

would be the the path to to to doing

what you did and you kind of laid it out

there. um

work at a place where you can learn as

much as possible to where you can get

into a position where you you you have

that value proposition and then sell it.

Um, but

I think that it's very easy as a young

person to look at industries like quant

trading or like investment banking. Um,

you know, look at very very high status

industries, right? And and and run as

fast as you can at them because you have

the skills to do so. Um, if you were a

young person today,

would you run in that direction or do

you think that there are people who who

who I guess

go for something that is very often

viewed as the high status thing to go

for and maybe you're making a mistake by

doing that. I

>> I think the key is to determine uh what

is your interest,

right? So uh for example right I said I

was always interested in mathematics and

statistics and computing programming and

I actually wrote my first trend

following program

while I was still at college right never

ran any money on it uh or anything right

but so I think clearly it was an

interest right I don't know how it got

to that but it was I was very interested

in that so I think uh one has to be very

interested tested in the field right so

you use the word high status right

>> uh I wouldn't do it for that I

personally would not do it for that

reason uh and uh it is again human right

that some people will do that right uh

and then maybe develop an interest and

so on right again everybody has

different paths but I think determining

what is your interest now I'm not saying

that you will know you'll have it fully

uh outlined in terms of what will happen

in the next 20 years or 10 years, right?

Far from it because the industry

continues to evolve. But the starting

point has to be a level of interest,

right? So, if you're interested uh in

this particular field, why are you

interested? You need and do you really

enjoy doing it? You enjoy working on it

24/7

uh because you like it, right? I I guess

then that's the right reason. That's

personally my view. That's the right

reason uh to do that, right? And then

the opportunity in the first few years

certainly is to learn as much as

possible right again there is peer

pressure you know to uh because you know

when you're out of college you get

evaluated based on where you are what

kind of compensation and so on and so

forth that is very natural that's human

right but I do personally think that uh

knowledge and learning more if you are

interested in an industry learning about

that industry

uh the more you can learn about it in

the first few years uh I think is the

most valuable

personally that's again just speaking

personally and based on my personal

experience and I think also having seen

a lot of successful people uh within

this industry

>> last question before we open it up for

Q&A

um Deepak you've achieved a lot clearly

um you've built a very successful

business. Um, but you're still at it,

right?

What would it take for you to think to

yourself, I've made it. Are you already

there or is there I don't know some next

milestone that you'll shoot for and then

you can say you've made it.

>> Uh, I think that'll never happen. Right.

So there is no I have made it. I I just

don't get that sense. Right. Yeah. ctain

satisfied with what you know we've

achieved so far. uh in fact I was having

a partner meeting recently right and I

was telling people right that if if if

let's say if you decided not to if I

decided not to work on words sir for a

single day more uh I would still be very

satisfied right I would look at it and

say it was a success but I'm not

stopping and uh we certainly so I'm

saying there's a difference here we are

proud of what we have achieved uh but

it's not you you can't get complacent

and say I have made it and uh so that's

just again a personal philosy

I love that. Thank you very much. Um,

and all the best.

>> Thank you. Thank you very much.