everyone wants more sex better sex and

there is huge amount that we can do that

can guarantee great sex for the rest of

your life so that the best place to

start is Dr Karen gurny she is a

clinical psychologist and psychos

sexologist that has been helping

individuals and couples overcome sexual

problems for 20 years she's lead

psychologist in an award-winning NHS sex

clinic this might be surprising to some

people 52% of women and 42% of men are

unhappy with the sex lives that they

have and that's because as a society

we've got sex all wrong for example the

way desire is represented to us is lust

passion spontaneity but it's not the

norm and the problem is a lot of people

are waiting to feel like that and

they're waiting a really long time what

we need to do instead is be aware that

our desire can be triggered using what I

call sexual currency I'll go into that

we also know that penis and vagina sex

is women's least favorite sexual act but

that's how we see how sex should be so

we see less pleasure and less reward for

women but also if you ask most people

how often they should be having sex

everyone says three times a week it's

actually drastically different than that

three times a month and that shows the

way we understand sex is all wrong so I

have questions do you think you should

schedule sex no what you should do

though is fantasies fetishes what if

your partner says I don't like it well I

can talk you through that if you like

parents who are struggling with sex what

should they do we know that people start

having sex again from when their kid is

about six and that's because what if

you're in a relationship right now and

you no longer found them attractive what

do I say I would

say it's absolutely crazy to me that so

many of you have decided to watch our

show um and so many of you have decided

to subscribe to our show we now have

five million subscribers on YouTube

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comprehend and it's a dream that I

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started the dire of a CO just over 3

years ago now and in my wildest

expectations we might have had 100,000

subscribers by now so you can imagine

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have chosen to tune into these

conversations every week um and spend

some time with us so thank you and I

made a deal with you I made a deal that

if you subscribe to this show that we

would continue to raise the bar and in

2024 we're going to raise the bar like

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with the

[Music]

episode Dr Karen gy

hi what you do and why' you do it I

spend my working week trying to change

people's relationships with sex and the

reason I do that is because although we

might think that sex is a kind of

frivolous recreational Pursuit it

actually isn't it's super important for

our psychological well-being for our

relationship well-being we know that

when people have great sex their

relationships last longer we know that

when people have great sex they're even

more productive in work than next day

there are so many reasons why sex is

important but unfortunately as a society

we've kind of got it all wrong about how

sex Works about what we should be doing

and because of that we have hugely High

rates of dissatisfaction with people's

sex lives in the UK but also worldwide

why did Sex take your fancy there's so

much about sex that's fascinating I

think there's loads we don't know um

there's loads we do know but no one

talks about people find it so hard to

talk about sex and it's so

stigmatized that you know when people

come into the room you can really see

the weight of it on their shoulders it's

hard for them to speak about it's

embarrassing for them and to be the

person that makes that feel comfortable

and to be the person that can create

change in a part of their life that

matters so much but is perhaps something

they've never told their closest friend

about is hugely rewarding you also get

to work with people across all ages so

you know from their teens to their '90s

you get to work with couples individuals

um you get everything with Sex Therapy I

love it since you started your work what

was almost what 20 years ago did you 20

what have you seen in terms

of changes in the problem set M that

you're dealing with now I what are the

new problems that you're you're

confronted with in your clinical

practice when couples or people come to

you yeah that's a good one because lots

of things have stayed the same right so

we we we know that for example problems

with desire Remain the most common

reason why people end up in my clinical

room um but lots of things have also

shifted data actually shows those shifts

over the last few decades so we have

long-term um data into the lives of um

people in the UK in terms of their sex

lives and we know that we're having less

sex this decade than we were the decade

before and the decade before that so the

amount of sex we're having for example

is going down from my clinical hunches

but also from what's been written about

in the research we have a good idea that

that's our pace of life our work life

balance our distractability our use of

devices um it's become evident in the

last kind of two decades that when it

comes to sex attention is a really key

part of it it's really key so being able

to pay attention to what's happening in

your body or being able to pay attention

to what's happening in your mind is

crucial but as a society I think we're

getting less and less able to pay

attention we're getting getting more and

more in pursuit of distraction and that

shows itself all the time in Sex Therapy

you know couples who come to see me

because they feel that they're never

having sex but yet when you look at

their week they actually have very

little time together and the time

together they do have they're both busy

scrolling they're watching Netflix and

scrolling they're perhaps doing three

things at once they're checking their

work emails that's taking them to a

whole new cognitive place of stress and

so it's no wonder that people don't have

space for their desire to emerge and

that's definitely a newer phenomenon it

kind of made me think of some of the

things I was reading about in your books

where you you say that couples and

individuals who do mindfulness practices

um are those that typically have the

most desire the I think the quote is

from your newest book which is the book

is called how not to let having kids

ruin your sex life yeah it's a bit of a

mouthful it's a it's a great great title

it says research tells us that women who

find easier to have orgasms are

typically more mindful in everyday life

and find it easier to be in the moment

during sex which is chapter three that's

right so there's an enormous amount of

data about attention and sex and

obviously one of the ways in which we

can sharpen our attention is mindfulness

we know that mindfulness Works across a

range of challenges that we face whether

it's pain management whether it's sleep

whether it's about apti regulation all

kinds of things but when it comes to sex

it's super powerful so when you're

distracted during sex um and we know

that over 90% of people have nonsexual

thoughts during sex okay so everyone

gets distracted we know that from the

research but what happens when we start

to get distracted most of the time or

when those distractions are what we call

cognitively Salient which means they're

worrying or they're particularly

stressful like oh I'm not going to calm

or what if I don't stay hard or is she

enjoying this those types of

distractions what happens is our

distraction is basically basically

turning down our arousal like turning

down the volume on the TV so it becomes

harder for our bodies to respond so to

stay aroused for example it becomes

harder for us to feel anything so our

pleasure is turned down it becomes

harder for us to come and ultimately

over time it gets in the way of our

desire on the contrary if we work on

that distraction either by trying to

remove them or trying to tackle the

worries that their root cause or trying

to promote our ability to pay attention

where we want it to be so that's sexual

thoughts sexual Sensations pleasure then

it's like turning up the volume and

we've seen plenty of research that

demonstrate the enormously powerful

impact of mindfulness on sexual response

I can think of times in my life where

because I was stressed or worried when I

got in bed I was worrying about

something or stressing about something

at work yeah my partner tried to have

sex with me and I had zero chance of

getting aroused I could not get an

erection and it's I remember those

moments and thinking oh God she's going

to think that it's about her but really

it's because of this thing I have on my

to-do list that's exactly right i' I'd

got in bed doing my to-do list so I I

like I was holding my to-do list and I

was doing it on my phone and I put the

phone down and then I lay back and I'm

still thinking about my to-do list and

then she tries to initiate and there's

zero chance that's it and that's also

exactly what we were talking about late

earlier on right which is that our

society has changed the way we work has

changed so perhaps three decades ago you

wouldn't have been checking your emails

just before bed which means that

wouldn't have started that Cascade of

thoughts about work which would then

perhaps Peak your cortisol your stress

levels and then cut off your ability to

get turned on so that is one of the

major things that has shifted for all of

us and I think you know one of the myths

that we you know would benefit from

quashing about sex is this idea that

particularly men are always up for it

are always ready to have sex it's just

not

true in fact everybody needs their kind

of conditions for good sex as I call it

to be right they need to be in the right

kind of headp space they need to be not

distracted um they need to know that the

environment is an environment that works

for them it's quite important so yeah

your experience is mirrors what a lot of

people are probably sat at home thinking

about just now do you think there's a

bit of a a paradox with sex in the sense

that the more you think about it mhm and

worry about it the harder it becomes yes

absolutely so what do you do just not

think about it and worry about like so

it's quite interesting because there's

also something else that happens when we

get turned on which is that we get this

attentional focused narrowing so one of

the features of physiological arousal so

so when blood flows around the body

particularly to the genitals is that we

know it kind of sharpens our attention

it makes us basically want to block out

the rest of the world and I'm sure we've

all had experiences when we've been

completely in the moment during sex when

we've not thought about a single other

thing that might be happening around us

so that attentional narrowing is great

unless your attention has been hijacked

by a worry because then you get

attentional narrowing on the worry MH

and what happens when we worry about

something is that it interferes with

sexual response in two main ways the

first is that it takes our attention

away from what's erotic and that turns

down the arousal and pleasure like we

talked about earlier on the TV um the

second thing that happens is that when

we worry about something that activates

our sympathetic nervous system sending

chemical messages around the body saying

don't have sex there's something to

worry about you know it can't tell the

difference between a modern day worry

like this email has come through that's

ruined my day versus you know a

saber-tooth tiger has just walked in you

know our brains are still primitive in

that regard so what happens is that

switches off our sexual response might

mean that you struggle to get turned on

it might mean that you struggle to feel

anything it might mean that your body

doesn't work in the way you want it to

and then of course the next time you go

into it what are you thinking you're

thinking what if it doesn't work you

talk a lot about expectations um and the

role that they play in sex expectation

and pressure make sex worse that's a

quote from your new book chapter 3 I

know maybe that's not a quote but that's

basically the gist of what it said um

but it's also the G gist of my

experience I think it's always felt to

me like the opposite of great sex is

expectation and like rigidity yes and

great sex for me is some sometimes

spontaneous but it's Carefree yes and

it's worry free yeah yeah I mean

pressure is a total passion killer but

pressure it's like that's again the kind

of compounding Paradox because the more

there's a problem with our sex the more

it becomes a focal point in our

relationship the more pressure the more

expectation every night you go to bed

you're thinking you know I've had

moments in past lives and past

relationships where because the sex

wasn't great I would feel nervous going

to bed because it was going to be one of

those moments where we kind of both are

sat there thinking about it but we're

not saying anything to each other and

then if I fall asleep I'm going to

disappoint them but if I try it's going

to go badly so what the hell do I do yes

pressure um is not good for our sex

lives and one of the challenges with

pressure is that when you think about

initiation it's often very much bound up

in pressure and perhaps we'll talk about

initiation in a second but actually the

foundation of those problems with

expectation and pressure is not being

able to talk about it okay because if

you think about it what we really want

to say is I'm feeling quite stressed

about the sex situation and the fact

that we don't talk about it means that

those things are hanging between us and

we know with sex that one of the

fascinating things about it is like

other ways in which we learn we learn

about sex by what we witness in the

media and what we pick up from social

learning something psychologists call

social learning theory when it comes to

sex we don't witness how anyone else is

doing it really we only see what happens

on TV and what happens in porn and maybe

hear from our friends but we don't

really know if they're telling the truth

or

not so what that means is we've all my

friends all lie about it yeah everyone

does they're all stallion in that now

I'm joking they're all very honest

there's actually a fascinating sex

research fact which is one of my

favorite facts which is that men uh when

they say the number of sexual partners

that they've had are more likely to

round it up to a zero or a five a number

ending in 05 I think that's a great sex

fact um so what that means then is is

that we're all living our sex lives

based on something we call sexual script

Theory this is a concept that

organically came out of the work of some

sex researchers in the 70s called gagnan

and Simon and they discovered that

actually in the absence of talking about

sex we all have quite set ideas about

what our sex lives should look like and

we've picked this up from uh from the

media from how people talk about sex in

popular culture and and how we've Ed

language what this means is that we have

a set of ideas and this includes things

like penis and vagina is the main cause

of sex and everything else isn't really

sex and language backs that up doesn't

it with the use of the word foreplay

kind of relegating any other type of sex

to less than and the use of the word

virginity which we only really use to

refer to penis and vagina sex so all of

these things tell us well that's what

real sex is and then you hear people

talking about that and backing that up

with things like well we did everything

but which is like we didn't have sex you

did have sex because you were sexual

together so what happens with these

sexual scripts is that they benefit us

to some degree because they reduce our

anxiety that's what sexual scripts are

there for to give us some idea of what's

expected but what they do to us in the

absence of communication is they give us

an idea about what we should be doing or

what someone else wants to do without us

having to talk about it which often

means that problems arise for examp one

of the examples you give in your book is

about orgasms yes and pornography giving

us a sexual script that men are

basically meant in a heterosexual

relationship men are meant to orgasm and

that there was some crazy stat from some

PornHub research yes yeah that's really

interesting research there was some

research that talked about depictions of

female pleasure and pleasure inducing

acts for women from the hund most

popular videos on PornHub and they found

that um women's pleasure was shown in

about 18% of those top hund videos and

men's pleasure or act that produce

pleasure for men mainly around penis and

vagina sex because that's men's most

favorite sexual act it's women's least

favorite sexual act that was depicted in

about 78% of cases so it's quite

interesting then when you think about

the fact that we're learning from what

we see because what does that then tell

us about what sex should look like about

when sex ends about whose pleasure is

prioritized and it's one of the reasons

that we have an orgasm Gap when men and

women have sex together because that's

how we learn about sex on that I just

want to pick up on two things you said

there that were really interesting to me

the first one was about us not talking

why we don't talk um it's very difficult

to talk about sex with your partner very

very difficult I've been there very

difficult because the plethora of

reasons why you might not be functioning

well or enjoying it can often sound like

you're blaming them communication is so

important we know that being able to

talk about sex is one of the most highly

correlated factors with long-term sexual

satisfaction and relationship

satisfaction and maintaining desire over

time it's more important than the amount

you have set

liking the same thing sexually it's so

important but it's so hard to do and we

know why it's hard right it's because

we're not socialized to talk about it

we're not often given the words that

feel comfortable we are out of practice

getting those words out of our mouth so

they feel kind of clumsy and

awkward there's a lot of worry and risk

involved what if I say this and they

don't like it and because of that it's

easier to avoid but the most fascinating

thing about about sex I think is that

it's constantly evolving for us so you

and I we're not the same people sexually

than we were when we were 15 16 and we

won't be the same sexual people in

another 10 15 years than we are now so

we need to be able to have the ability

for growth right growth and flex in our

sexual relationships but how do you do

that if you can't talk about it it's a

bit like going to the hairdressers same

hairdresses for the rest of your life

and every you sit down not saying

anything and just hoping that they'll

give you the haircut that you want you

wouldn't do it right and they

continually give you the bad you one and

you just keep coming back and you say

thanks and you tip them and you go so we

need to get better at talking about it

and it's not easy it's easy for me I

talk about it all day every day but I

know that that's not the norm and part

of the work that I do is to try and help

people try and give people the scaffold

to talk about it and I can talk you

through that if you like please so it

might be that the best place to start is

to find out how people find talking

about challenging topics anyway with

their partner so if you can't talk about

other things outside of sex without it

going into an argument then it might be

worth just looking at communication full

stop forget sex for the moment just talk

about that are you creating some like

Rules of Engagement for how we

communicate you listen I express myself

absolutely and I always recommend the

Gans um I don't know if you know their

work I do yeah um I recommend them

because they have some great resources

around General communication it's

important to have a good basis if you're

going to talk about sex but if people

can talk about other things and they

find it relatively easy to hear each

other and to share their kind of hopes

and fears then it might be useful to

start to create a culture where talking

about sex becomes the norm this is

always the place you want to end up

right we all want to end up with a

relationship culture that supports easy

communication about sex that's the

guaranteed route to sexual satisfaction

and to do that we have to make it

something that we do frequently without

any pressure without any expectation

that something big has to change so an

early way to start that might be for

example to bring in some novelty in your

Communications about sex so people might

be listening to this podcast and they

might say oh how was your day today

great oh I heard this thing on Diary of

a CEO podcast and it was about

depictions of pleasure in porn and I

thought it was really interesting and it

occurred to me we don't talk about porn

much you know is that something you'd be

open to talk about whether you watch it

whether you like it what you like that

might feel too much for some people and

it might be I heard a podcast about sex

and it talked about the importance of

talking and I thought we don't do that

much so there's ways of bringing it in

which are saying look this I think would

be good for us the key point is stating

the impact that you think it will have

so I would like like to talk more about

this because I heard it means you can

guarantee great sex for the rest of your

life so I think that would be good for

us you know I'm committed to this

relationship I want our sex to stay

great this might be awkward for us but

can we do it so the starting point if

you're nervous is always to talk about

things outside of your sexual

relationship things you've heard on

podcasts films you saw with good sex

scenes in them bring things in rather

than talking about the two of you after

that if you get good at that it might be

worthwhile talking about your own sex

when it goes well so a good time to do

this is after sex that's gone well or at

another time when you're feeling really

emotionally connected maybe you're out

for dinner maybe you're having a weekend

away and talk about what you really

liked and why okay so don't talk about

it when it's bad no no not at this stage

not at this stage if you feel confident

with that and you get into a habit of

talking about sex talking about what's

gone well talking about sex as if if

it's any other topic of conversation

like business or exercise or Diet then

you might want to start to talk about

things you'd like to be different and in

an idal world I try and encourage

couples to have a kind of regular

practice of this so if you think about

your goals for your exercise your work

your diet often you'll set yourself

goals right and you might tell your

partner about them you know in six

months from now I want to do this or

this year I'm working on this it's quite

good to get into the habit of saying

where do we want our sex life to go how

would we like things to be what do we

want to continue what do we want more of

and what do we want less of and that's a

really positive conversation you don't

need to talk about what you don't like

you're talking about what you want more

of instead what if the issue in your

sexual relationship is one of Attraction

and I I've asked a few guests this

because I think it's one of the the

hardest challenges to overcome and I

don't know in a clinical setting what

you would say if you're sat there with

an individual and they're telling you

that the reason they aren't having sex

with Dave right now is because they're

no longer attracted to them what what is

their path forward there do they dump

Dave or do they go tell Dave it depends

how important sex is to them if it's

important say it's important and for

them a relationship they're in a

monogamous relationship so they can't

get sex elsewhere or they've agreed to

not get sex elsewhere and is important

then it's quite important that

attraction is part of it um we know that

the sex science tells us that when

attraction is high at the beginning it's

really easy to maintain desire over time

when attraction is low it can be really

challenging It's Not Unusual for me to

see couples who've been together decades

with very low levels of Attraction but

the work they need to do to maintain a

sex life that works for them both is

tough so so you need to kind of have

your eyes open I guess about what you're

signing up for if sex is important to

you then attraction is fairly important

I think it's also maybe useful to say

that attraction can work some Wayne and

it might be worth examining what's going

on there and whether you know there is a

certain situation that you find

yourselves in as a couple or whether

they're at the moment going through some

stuff that maybe makes it harder for you

to see them in that light yeah sometimes

attraction can come back when those

relationship contexts are worked on but

if it's never been there from the outset

if it's a very strong sense of a lack of

Attraction if someone's eyes have

already moved to someone else then it

may be useful to address it and

attraction's not just a physical thing

people think of Attraction as being

physical it's a psychological thing as

well absolutely absolutely and you know

attraction can vary in relationships

depending on what's happening in the

relationship Dynamic so a common thing

that I've written about in the new book

it's to book for parents really is

around the dynamic of what it feels like

to have a partner who feels like a

another child so the idea that you might

be having to care for them as well you

know make their lunches kind of buy

their clothes um tidy up after them that

we know from sex research that's a super

unsexy Dynamic and that is something

which often falls on women in straight

relationships once kids arrive and that

kind of dynamic can shift attraction and

may well shift back if that Dynamic is

addressed so your new book is called how

not to let having kids ruin your sex

life that's right why did you title it

that I just thought let's say what it is

and that's exactly what it is it's a

guide to not let having kids ruin your

sex life does that tend to happen kids

so oh yeah so it's so common sexual

dissatisfaction is that it's lowest for

couples in the period after having kids

so if you've got an under five-year-old

at home it's pretty likely that your sex

life is suffering for it it doesn't have

to but many of the kind of reasons why

our sex life struggles when kids come

along are um amplifications of dynamics

that we struggle with outside of kids so

for example quite often but of course

not always people are in a long-term

relationship quite often they're living

together being in a long-term

relationship and living together are two

factors which reduce your desire over

time so you've already you're already

starting from that point you may have

also been trying to conceive you might

have had problems with fertility with

miscarriage sex might have got boring

but you might have had to do it anyway

you've then got pregnancy which for some

people is a golden time of sexual

exploration but for some people means

for one reason or another they don't

have much sex and then you're expecting

to get back to your sexual life when

you've getting no sleep when you're

stressed and when you've got another

kind of 37 40 hours of work a week to do

which is the parenting week so there's

so many reasons why it's challenging and

that's why I wrote the book is there a a

certain demographic of person that

you're most likely to see in your

clinical practice and is it is it

parents I see people of all ages I see I

probably see people mostly in long-term

relationships I think people know that

desire is my specialist subject so

people tend to seek me out particularly

around desire um I see a lot of parents

I also see a lot of non-parents but you

know Parenthood brings additional child

Alles for people to navigate even if you

think about the time available to have

sex it's much more limited it can be

really difficult to initiate when you

initiate it the other person might

experience it as a really clumsy

initiation when they've got a lot on

their plate these are all just as I said

amplifications of what you might get in

long-term relationships generally but it

tends to be the more challenging wedge

of the

pie desire this idea of Desire is really

fascinating to me I actually speak to

one of my best friends about

um what we call Desire management and it

was a theory that we developed based on

just looking at both of our lives and

how we' manag to maintain sexual desire

in our respective relationships he has

an approach to dating which we all laugh

at him for where he meets someone and he

moves them in really really quickly like

moves them in it's a very like

smothering approach to like finding Love

and Desire very quickly goes out the

window whereas I'm probably the opposite

of that where in my current relationship

with it was a longdistance relationship

for 2 years she lived on the other side

of the world eventually in maybe year

three or something we like moved in

together but we're still we still both

fly all over the world so we don't see

each other much which I think is proven

to be quite Central to our desire

management we don't see each other much

and that's that's the theory of Desire

management keep some distance keep keep

the right amount of distance there's

probably absolutely there's probably two

too far away and too in frequently

seeing them and then there's seeing them

too much absolutely it's a great Theory

so desire is possibly one of the most

fascinating aspects of sex that is

grossly misunderstood by our kind of

collective psyche and it's quite

interesting because if you ask most

people um on the street how desire works

or what desire is they'll tell you that

we have such a thing as a sex drive or

libido which kind of comes into our mind

and tells us it would be a good idea to

have sex that is an idea that came from

sex science in the 50s and 60s when we

believed that desire was the first part

of the sexual response cycle so you you

first had the idea to be sexual and then

you acted on it and that's kind of

seeped down into our Collective psyche

and that's how we all operate our sex

lives we generally wait to feel like it

and then we act on it but actually we

now know that desire doesn't work like

that and that in the early stages of a

relationship or if we live apart there's

your desire management we manage to

maintain higher levels of that kind of

Desire it's called spontaneous desire

and it happens when a partner is novel

or less familiar to us or perhaps when

our Dynamic with them isn't diluted by

other roles so for your friend that

moves someone in that person then

becomes a

flatmate so that the role of them as a

sexual partner is diluted for other

people it's diluted also by being a

co-parent so our brain starts to see

that person less as a sexual object

this is an inevitable part of being with

someone for a number of years and we can

pretty much guarantee that for most

people spontaneous desire will start to

decline about a year or 18 months into a

relationship obviously it depends how

often you see each other and it sounds

like your desire management fantastic

might keep that going a bit longer for

most people they have this experience

and we know that this happens for

everyone but that women struggle to

maintain this more than men so in the UK

we know that 34% of women and 15% of men

are worried that they don't feel like

sex enough and that's because they've

seen a drop in the spontaneous desire we

talked about sexual scripts earlier and

we talked about how we learn about sex

from what we see the way desire is

represented to us in the media is lust

passion

spontaneity that sexual urge that you

absolutely have to act on and yes that

is how it works for some of us some of

the time perhaps after we've not seen

each other for a long time perhaps at

the start of a relationship and for some

people you know lifelong with the same

person but it's not the norm actually

what the norm is is that that type of

Desire tends to diminish and it's other

motivations other than horniness that

we're seeking out through sex so we call

these nonsexual motivations and there

may be things like wanting to feel close

stress relief wanting to feel desire

ired um wanting to demonstrate love or

affection wanting to have fun um out of

a sense of obligation because it's been

a while these are all nonsexual

motivations which lead us to the

behavior of

sex the problem is a lot of people are

waiting to feel like it before they act

on it and for those people they're

waiting a really long time we know that

for women particularly uh it should be

considered normal to never feel like sex

out of the blue with your long-term

partner never how do we know that from

sex research so when we ask women how

often do you feel like sex with your

partner they say either never or maybe

once or twice a month this is

spontaneous

desire but we're asking the question

about only one type of Desire responsive

desire is desire that emerges out of us

beginning sexual activity or or having

what we call sexual stimuli in front of

us a passionate kiss a flirtation being

naked together um a text that suggests

something that we might do later

on the later versions of sex research

tell us that actually desire emerges out

of being sexual okay so it comes from

doing something to trigger it but if

your understanding of Desire is that you

should wait until you feel like it

there's a large proportion of people in

longterm relationships that are just

never feeling like it and never doing

anything about it what we need to do

instead is be aware that our desire can

be triggered and find ways to trigger it

and have a relationship context that

supports triggering it in that context

we know that people's desire works

perfectly well that means they can have

desire feature as much as they want in

their relationship just by knowing how

desire works so our brains code things

as sexual and this could be physical

touch it could be kiss it could be being

naked together it could be the sight of

someone's naked body it could be a

suggestive text it's different for

everybody but essentially sexual content

triggers our arousal which triggers our

desire it's the reason why the most

common thing people say to me in Sex

Therapy is I didn't really feel like it

but we had sex and it was great and

afterwards I said why don't we do that

more that's responsive desire it emerges

out of sexual activity the problem of

long-term relationships is that we see a

decline in what I call sexual currency

so how we relate to each other as sexual

beings we start to see sex a bit like an

onoff switch so we're either having sex

or the rest of the time we're not being

sexual together you know we're not

passionately kissing unless it's part of

sex we're not sending each other those

flirty messages we us to do at the

beginning we're not spending time

lounging around in bed on a Sunday

morning being naked together in a way

that might kickstart

desire so these low levels of sexual

currency and these high levels of

familiarity seeing the same person every

day means our brains just don't code

them as sexual stimuli in the same way

and then we go cheat or we go look for

porn or something else yeah absolutely

because we want to have that kind of

frison of excitement can I just clarify

that sexual currency this definition

basically means if I think this of this

in a financial context

if you see someone as being highly

sexually desirable they have a high

sexual currency in your mind not quite

okay so think currency more like charge

oh okay like a thatp yeah so sexual

currency my definition of it would be

it's everything that you do that marks

you out as a sexual couple apart from

having sex so this is the stuff that you

wouldn't do with your friends you

wouldn't do with your family you

wouldn't do with your kids so you're

physically affectionate with all those

people right M but the seual side of it

the passionate kissing the bum grabs the

flirtation the saying you look super hot

in that top these things are sexual

currency so if we think about our sex

lives not as this onoff switch of the

you know 18 minutes that's the average

for men and women when they have sex

together it's 18 minutes of having sex

however often you're doing it if you

think of your sexual relationship as

something which is always happening

something which you're always nurturing

you can imagine the power that that can

have on both triggering desire but also

Meeting those sexual needs I'll give you

an example that I wrote about in the new

book actually um because parents

obviously have limited time available to

have sex and raising sexual currency is

one of the ways you can increase sexual

satisfaction even when you can't have

any more sex so if you think about an

example of um a straight couple whereby

he is feeling that her lack of interest

in sex means that she doesn't desire him

as much as she used to and he's worried

about that because for him that means

the relationship is in crisis uh she

might look elsewhere and also he doesn't

feel so good about himself he wants to

feel desired we all do right he gave me

an example of a time when they perhaps

attended a function and they were in the

lift and as they went up in the lift to

get to this function she pushed him

against the lift and kissed him really

passionately for the 10 seconds they

were in the lift and then they got out

the lift and They carried on with the

function

this is sexual currency and that made

him feel more desired more connected to

her sexually than a week before the sex

they had that felt like going through

the motions so you've got something

which meets your sexual needs which

makes you feel desired attractive close

like a sexual couple like you've got

some sexual secret between you that no

one else can see sexual currency does

all of that but it also acts as

scaffolding to help us move easily into

sex because we talked about expect

expectation and pressure earlier and if

you have high levels of sexual currency

there's low pressure for it to go

anywhere because it is your sexual

relationship for its own right it's not

someone initiating sex the way to

overcome this potential psychological

barrier is to create a culture of low

pressure between you you say that sex

should be trivial and often not rare and

crucial absolutely yeah soal and often I

always know that my work with couples is

done when they find it really easy to

invite each other into sex and really

easy to turn each other down because

what happens when uh we have low levels

of sexual currency and when sex has

become an issue is that everything's

riding on initiation so the person

initiating Waits they they ignore all

the other times they want to initiate it

because it's quite stressful and they

wait until the time it really matters

maybe it's an anniversary or a weekend

away or something where it feels like

you should have sex and they initiate it

and there's so much riding on it that

the other person knows there's so much

writing on it they feel pressure

pressure is a desire killer it doesn't

happen and then the initiation will be

even rarer moving forward more pressure

for more pressure exactly what we want

instead is a kind of trivial and often

way of sexually relating high levels of

sexual currency high levels of

initiation so you find it easy to say to

your partner by the way at work today I

was thinking about doing this to you

when when we get home and your partner

can say that sounds really hot if only I

didn't have this meeting tomorrow on my

mind let's come back to that on the

weekend so you can let somebody know

that sex is on your mind you can invite

someone into something which might be a

passionate kiss might be let's go to bed

early and talk about our day knowing

that that is sexual stimuli which might

trigger arousal and desire but also it

acts as a way of

triggering that um initiation it makes

it easy to initiate if you're doing it

often and if there's low pressure do you

think you should schedule sex no never

ever schedule sex cuz you said let's

come back to on the weekend I was

thinking that's just ruin the weekend

I'd like to I like it to be spicy and

spontaneous so um it's one of our sexual

scripts that sex spontaneous sex is

better and I don't necessarily agree

with that but I do agree with the idea

that scheduling sex just creates

pressure for everyone how can you in

advance agree to something that you

don't know if you're going to feel like

when you get there and all that does is

create pressure what you should do

though in today's day and age is

schedule physical intimacy schedule some

type of sexual currency because we're so

busy if you don't do that when is it

going to happen the issue I have though

is if I schedule physical intimacy MH

then okay and I keep doing that

eventually the expectation comes in that

we have sex after the physical intimacy

it's also the same thing with like date

night if you're parents and you get one

date night a week we all know when we

need to get this we need to make this

thing happen so it becomes scheduling

sex because you're scheduling date night

once a week you know what I mean yeah so

you've got two options haven't you one

is that you wait until it's really high

pressure and you don't initiate it very

often you wait for this date night I

don't know once a week once a month and

everyone knows there's all kinds of

stuff riding on it and that makes it

possibly the worst set of circumstances

to for everyone to feel like sex lots of

high pressure sex that might feel

formulaic everyone's distracted means

they can't get into it it's not great

sex the other option is that you keep

high levels of sexual currency and you

try your best to schedule brief moments

of physical intimacy which could act as

scaffolding to take it further you're

right in that you may start to build up

an expectation that oh every time we say

we'll have a bath together we end up

having sex that might happen but when

you invite someone into the bath you are

inviting them into the bath right so

you're not inviting them saying let's

have a bath and have sex afterwards

you're saying do you fancy having a bath

together the fact that you both know

where the bath might lead is fine

because it allows you to get into that

head space Oh okay I hadn't thought

about sex tonight but the bath might

lead to sex so let me get into a sexual

head space for a minute so that's quite

useful the problem comes when you say to

them afterwards you said you wanted a

bath and we've not had sex well that

wasn't what you invited them into you

invited them into the B so you have to

be okay if it doesn't lead to that but

if you initiate these types of things

more if you think about it scattergun

approach more of them are likely to go

where you want them to go versus that

one time of high pressure if you were to

give me a couple of pieces of simple

advice on how to keep desire high in my

relationship what would you say I would

say kiss more kiss for kissing's sake

okay kiss kissing often falls off the

agenda in longterm

relationships the number of times I see

that um with couples I'm working with

who've been together decades they only

kiss as part of sex or as initiation of

sex so kissing is a great way of

triggering Desire it's also a great way

of getting our sexual needs met so that

would be one the second would be you

have to make time to schedule physical

intimacy of some type because remember

that desire is triggered by that kind of

sexual stimul whether it's um getting

naked on the couch and watching film

together that you know it's got good sex

scenes in it whether it's massage

whether it's the bath whether it's um

some kind of date night that involves

use of your bodies without that there

are no triggers to your desire so you're

just kind of waiting to feel it the

third is understand how desire works

it's drastically different than what

you've been sold and you're normal if

you struggle to get in the head space

sometimes what about distance and you

know this idea of like you talked about

how they kind of your partner can lose

their sexual currency if they become a

carer or you know I've heard before if

they become like too much of a mom or a

dad in your mind and they stop becoming

a sort of sexual partner relationship

Dynamics are quite fascinating U as you

say because when we talk about them we

often hear things like well obviously if

you're experiencing great amount of

relationship conflict it's going to

affect your sex life I mean that's of

course right we all know that to be true

but actually it's the subtle dyam

dynamics that are quite important it's

um having distance from each other and

being able to bring in novelty and

newness a bit like you do with kind of

having that that physical distance but

it's also an emotional separation isn't

it because you're having experiences

separately and then coming back together

to talk about them it's also about what

roles you might get typ cast into in

your relationship so something I talk

about often is the idea that when we

have sex with the same person for a long

time we can start to feel as though

there's only one way for us to be

sexually and that's the way they're kind

of expecting us to be so it can feel

quite suffocating and sometimes that's

the reason that people go outside of a

monogamous relationship is because they

want to experience themselves

differently they want to be a different

person sexually and because they can't

talk to their partner about that and

they feel typ cast in that Dynamic you

know you're the dominant one I'm not or

um the sex that we have is really kind

of sensual and caring and I want it to

be passionate and

animalistic it's really difficult you

must come across so many couples in um

your clinical practice that have two

different visions of what sex should

look like yes fantasies fetishes you

know this one wants this person to do

this to me but this person thinks that's

you know horrific MH how does one bridge

the gap and how does one go about even

communicating those things because I

imagine so many people in so many

relationships it's kind of like what you

said earlier having really bad haircuts

having really bad sex and I saying

nothing about it and oh yeah I've been

in relationships before where I've

thought you know what I really want to

do that but I think she'll think that

I'm a little bit you know trust me no

one is talking about it everyone stays

silent and just hopes that the other

person will either get the hint or will

accidentally stumble upon the thing they

really want them to do it is fascinating

really when you think about it because

so much of our satisfaction our life

satisfaction depends on how sex goes but

we just almost leave it to Chance by not

talking about it one of the things we

might do in Sex Therapy is by getting

people separately to write down what

their perfect sex looks like um I have a

um an exercise it's actually free you

can find it on my social media or my

website which is called conditions for

good sex which guides people through the

process of doing that and it looks at

three main areas one is psychological

arousal what turns you on in your head

what kind of dynamic between you and the

person works for you how do you need to

feel about yourself and your Optimum

sexual experience one is physical

stimulation and that could be anything

from where you like to be touched to the

types of sex you like to um the type of

positions you like to be in the third is

being able to be in the moment so you

might right there the kinds of things

that go through your mind to distract

you and I would get people to do that

separately um the way I guide people

through that is by getting them to think

about their three best sexual

experiences and really replay those in

their mind what were the aspects of that

sexual experience which you play over

and over again what was it about how you

felt about yourself about how you could

be with that person what was it about

what you were doing what was it about

the environment and people are able to

then develop their own perspective their

own um list if you like of the things

that really work for

them what if your partner says I don't

like it well that's what we come to next

then we look for the overlap so is there

overlap if there's not then there's a

little bit of work to do right are you

going to stay in a monogamous

relationship and if so how are you going

to make this work are you going to open

it up so you can get your sexual needs

met elsewhere plenty of people do that

often there is enough overlap for people

to say okay I didn't realize that that

was a thing for you I don't I like that

thing but maybe not quite to that degree

can we do this instead so there's a

little bit of negotiation that happens

in the middle but I think perhaps one of

the myths around our sexuality is that

it exists between us and our partner and

actually our sexuality just exists

within us alone and we should be allowed

to express that alone or in our minds in

whatever way that we want and that could

look quite different what we do alone

perhaps with others to what we do with

another person so we don't have to get

all of our sexual needs met by that one

person there may be other ways of doing

it should we remain open-minded to the

um desires and requests of the other I I

remember you know I like experimenting

you know and I think I was once upon a

time with someone who was less Keen to

experiment and I remember think oh this

is boring this is going to be really

boring and then over time I think I was

able to introduce things slowly that

open their eyes to experimentation and

they love they love experimentation we

had the best sex of Our Lives okay

because we introduced things we

experimented more but um I I remember

reflecting in that moment that I could

have easily walked away from the

relationship when this person said oh no

that's weird I don't want to do that

yeah and it may be that if this other

person had done their conditions for

good sex they may have written down

under the psychological arousal part I

really need to know someone or I really

need to trust someone before I can do

things that are outside of the normal

sexual script right sense and

experimentation could be part of that um

I think it also comes down to how you

want the kind of personality of your sex

life together to be so I think for some

of us um experiencing kind of thrill or

joy or pushing boundaries or

experimentation in sex is a key part of

what really tis ticks us along what

really keeps us going for other people

it's just not it's it's that they want

sex to be predictable um intimate fun

but close without anything outside of

the ordinary so I think it can be quite

useful to think about what do we see as

the sexual personality of our

relationship how do we how do we want it

to be what would make us feel most alive

and that's where creat a culture of

talking about sex is helpful because

without that how do you know earlier you

used a phrase you said it's when we were

talking about vaginal um penetration you

said it's women's least favorite act yes

it is yeah so we talked about sexual

scripts um penis and vagina sex being

the main course of sex is very much a

dominant sexual script and there are

many reasons that's dominant and it's

something that we know from sex research

that if you ask people and they have

done many times in sex research to

recount what sex looks like people will

recount a set menu of sex that is you

start with this then you do a bit of

that then you go to the main course of

penis and vagina sex um the kind of

American audience will know that as a

kind of baseball analogy and I think

worldwide we know that analogy too right

that's how we see how sex should be but

what's Most Fascinating about that is

that suits men's Anatomy more than

women's we know that the majority of

women about 80% um don't orgasm from

penetrative sex because obviously it's

all about the clitoris and so that's why

for women their most favorite sexual

acts are things like people using their

hands to stimulate their clitoris or

receiving oral sex not penis and vagina

sex they rate rate that the least

pleasure inducing sexual

act for men it's different it's the

highest pleasure inducing sexual act

right alongside masturbation actually

what's f fascinating is we talk a lot

about desire particularly between men

and women when they have sex together

but we don't always talk about the fact

that to move towards sex we have to be

motivated to feel that there's going to

be a reward and so when we're having sex

that perhaps doesn't suit our anatomy as

much as we'd like it to or when there's

a big orgasm Gap and someone else is

reliably experiencing more pleasure than

we are of course our desire

suffers does it we've used the word

initiate a lot does it matter who

initiates

it doesn't matter but we know that the

person initiating often experiences

higher levels of sexual satisfaction in

the encounter than the person who's

following there are some really

interesting things with initiation and I

actually think that when it comes to sex

with long-term Partners when it comes to

many of the couples that I see people

often walk through the door saying

there's a problem with desire sometimes

there is it's usually in their

understanding of Desire not desire

itself but often it's an initiation

actually because if you think about it

initiation is a

communication you're basically saying

I'd like to have sex now would you and

there are a variety of ways that people

initiate and in my experience they can

be wildly off theark so one scenario is

that the person initiates and it's so

subtle that the other person just

doesn't pick up on it at all and it's

quite difficult to put yourself out

there with initiation right so people

test the waters with this coded subtle

I'll put my hands there and and they'll

know what that means and often that is

completely missed by the other person

and so the opportunity for sex is

lost the other side of the coin is when

people initiate in a really direct way

so um we know that women having sex with

men initiate much more directly and when

men are initiating with women or when

women are initiating with women they

initiate much more indirectly so this

direct initiation from women to men

often looks like should we have sex

then do you fancy a shag that kind of

thing which although it's direct and you

could give it points for being direct

communication people say that all the

time time all the time they say it it's

direct it's getting a point across but

it's inherently

unsexy and it's quite interesting

because the social script of men are

always up for sex means that in women's

Minds often they can just say that and

that will do it for their partner yeah

and actually that's not the case and

what we know from research is that most

men actually say I need a bit more than

that I need to feel intimacy I need to

feel desired I need to feel as though

she's initiating it because she's

enthusiastic about doing it not because

she's doing it for me we also know that

people fall into styles of initiation

and just in the same way that I

mentioned getting typ cast around how

you are sexually with a partner you can

get typ cast in terms of how you

initiate so there might be one way that

you do it always the same always and

maybe it was cute for the first six

months but in month 60 it starts to

become quite irritating it starts to

become not a sexual trigger but oh here

we go again yeah unsexy it's kind of

like yeah predictable yeah pressure so

it can be a really useful thing to have

a conversation with somebody else

somebody you're having sex with around

how you actually like sex to be

initiated and whether that matches with

how each other does it you know what's

interesting when we think about sex and

what we assume it must be like we all

have a bit of an idea in our head maybe

from pornography or something else or

movies that it should just flow yes that

it should just you know and so when our

sex doesn't flow we think something is

broken and wrong with it m we should we

just walk in hi babe how's work oh off

we go we're off to the like every day

and it should happen every every other

night um and if it's not flowing and

happening every other night we think we

need to go and like yeah you know fix

this someone's to blame something's

wrong with me or him or so let's come

back to frequency because that's a big

one but before we get on to

that occupying the space in between

willingness so that's a nice idea that

I've had or you've had but I'm not there

yet and desire when your desire kicks in

is actually quite an uncomfortable space

to occupy and one of the things I like

to do in in my work with people is to

try and help them get comfortable in

that space because as you say we have

this idea that we should be feeling it

before we start that's wrong we know

that now but also that it should be easy

for us just to slip into that sexual

head space to lose that awkwardness to

lose that sense of I don't actually know

if I'm going to feel like it I might do

can we just continue what we're doing

and I'll see occupying that space in

between willingness and desire is really

a key part of initiation because if you

initiate with shall we have sex it

doesn't really give you a chance to see

if you can occupy that space does it you

have either have to say yes or no do you

know think it's harder for men as well

in some regards because like we got to

get you know the Eiffel Tower up in in

in a heteros sexual relationship there's

like it's very easy to see if the man is

aroused whereas it's less obvious I mean

it is there's ways to tell obviously yes

without getting too detailed but it's

it's so clear if the man is aroused

there's no hiding it for all of us our

body's arousal response and the degree

with which we're turned on in our minds

so desire don't actually always match as

much as we'd like them to so I don't

know if you've ever had this experience

or any of your listeners have but it can

be quite common for men to want to be

getting in a sexual head space or

actually be feeling desire but not be

hard and because it's a visual sign

sometimes their Partners whether they're

male or female Partners can take that

really personally MH what does that mean

about me I I'm going to be honest

because that's the whole point of this

podcast was I've had multiple times in

my life where I've not been able to get

an erection and uh it's so awward and

it's the minute they realize that you

you're not going to be able to get an

erection

what do I say you know what do I say

yeah I'm so glad you mentioned it

because it's so common and it's common

because this is called arousal

non-concordance so an idea that our

bodies don't always do what our brains

are thinking so you might think you want

to have sex but your body doesn't always

respond and that happens for people of

all genders it's just more challenging

for people with penises right because

you can see it that's I'm saying yeah so

it brings with it that extra level of

pressure as soon as you've got that

pressure then as we know your attention

goes elsewhere your worry increases that

turns down arousal like turning down the

tv less chance of inter rection so can I

ask then what do I do in that moment and

what should they do as in like how do

they help me in that very embarrassing

moment and what do I say yeah so they

first need to understand that no

erection doesn't mean that you don't

want to have sex it might sometimes of

course but if you're saying look I'm I'm

really Keen for this I'm just not there

yet then they need to take that at face

value okay that's really important

otherwise you end up feeling as though

it's a judgment on your attraction or

your desire for them which it's not um

the second thing

is there needs to be less focus on the

need for the penis to be hard and that

comes from delineating this idea of this

set menu of sex which means a hard penis

has to be part of it there's plenty of

other things that you could do sexually

if you're feeling like you want to be

sexual which will move your attention

back to sexual things things that might

really turn you on so for example giving

oral sex is often something that a lot

of men say really turn them on obviously

it's not for everyone vibrator out yeah

all kinds of things watching someone

else's sexual pleasure can really turn

us on for some people it's really hard

for them to get used to um enjoying

sensation when their penis is soft they

they kind of want to avoid it be great

if they didn't and they could be

comfortable with enjoying that touch

even then but it might mean moving

moving your attention to another person

what usually happens then is that at

some point it comes back MH but it only

comes back if you don't worry about it

and if you don't put pressure on it that

has to be not just about you it has to

be about the person you're with as well

because you know if they're oh never

mind then we'll just do it another time

okay so that's really interesting so the

foundation of all of that though is

communication absolutely because without

that if if I go flatted and then I don't

say anything about it and I just lay

there like dormant and then she's laying

there dormant and then we try and go to

sleep and then we never address we never

get to communicate cuz maybe I did want

to have sex but maybe for some reason my

to-do list was still on my mind exactly

and notice that the Assumption behind it

is that the sex that you're going to

have is penis and vagina penetration is

that even what she wants and if we could

initiate sex in a way that was clearer

if we could say to our partners easily

um and really horny what I'd really like

to do is X and it all be about me are

you up for that that's quite different

if we're able to be clear about that

what would that do to your confidence

with your actions does that make sense

if she'd actually gone into that sexual

encounter saying you know what all I

want you to do is make me come I'm I'm

I'm not I not feel like penetrative sex

tonight if she'd felt confident to say

that I can guarantee there would have

been no problem with the erection the

erection would have come as part of it

because the whole process would have

been arousing this is a bit of a left

field one but I just remembered a debate

me and my friends had in our little like

mates

chat is it better to have sex before or

after you eat because he was like oh no

I this I thought this was weird he was

like I have sex before we go on the date

I'm like what you have sex before the

day he was like yeah no sex after no sex

after food that is a good idea to be

fair a lot of people say they struggle

really when they're full they feel quite

unsexy they feel a bit lethargic they

feel a bit bloated they don't feel great

about their body perhaps um a lot of

people do that if they're going to have

a date night I mean I never like date

nights because I think by the time you

get home from a date night you've maybe

had a bit to drink you've maybe had a

bit to eat it's maybe quite late it's

not the best conditions for having sex

actually I'd rather if you had a date

night you kept it on fun emotional

connection relationship satisfaction and

then you plan an in at home date night

that's more about physical intimacy okay

do you know what I mean because it's not

it's not that easy to do the two so your

friend's probably right probably before

food is better but you want to come back

to frequency sure yeah because we talked

about that earlier and this is one of

the big myths that people talk about

around sex life which is that the amount

of sex that you have matters and it

really

doesn't so what I mean by that is that

if you ask most people how often they

should be having sex a week I mean what

do you think they would say your friends

or people on the street how much they

should be having sex yeah a week a month

how much do you think they'd say three

times a week everyone says three times a

week really it's this kind of urban myth

that again forms part of our sexual

scripts if we're not having sex three

times a week there's a problem it's

actually drastically different than that

the average times people in in the UK

and actually it's kind of replicated

around the world but what's fascinating

is that we're using frequency as a yard

stick of a good sex life and there is no

correlation between the fre frequency of

sex and sexual satisfaction none

whatsoever so you're saying it's quality

over quantity absolutely you could be

having sex you know once a year that

completely blows your socks off makes

you feel alive makes you feel super

connected um that's really exploratory

where you lose yourself in it and that

is better than having sex once a day

where you're not enjoying it your mind's

not in it it's not pleasurable you're

feeling disconnected you're feeling

awkward so it's so interesting that we

get so hung up on frequency in fact the

average amount of times people are

having sex in the UK If people are

interested is around about three times a

month but there is huge amount of

variation there so plenty of people in

relationships that haven't had sex for

months and I'm quite happy with that and

plenty of people having sex more but I

think having that average is quite

useful to talk about because actually

it's a it's quite surprisingly different

to how most people perceive it should be

over 40% of women want to be having more

sex than they are currently having which

is in chapter two of this book in front

of me mind the gap MH what about men so

women are women want to be having over

40% of them want to be having more sex

than they're currently having yeah

there's there's huge levels of sexual

dissatisfaction for people of all

genders everyone wants to be having more

sex better sex than they're currently

having we know that for women it's

around about what just over half of

women 52% and for men it's about 42% are

unhappy with the sex lives that they

have enormous numbers that's UK data

15,000 adults between the ages men are

typically more satisfied yeah and I

suggest that the reason for that is that

although men experience challenges with

desire as well men find it easier on

average to maintain desire for the same

person and as we've already talked about

women struggle to access their

spontaneous desire and label that as a

problem when it's not you know I'm aware

we're talking very much about straight

couples because that's where we see the

majority of sexual problems but when we

talk about men and women having sex

together we also see that orgasm Gap so

we see less pleasure and less reward for

women which I think accounts for that

slightly higher number so you said

something in between there that was

curious to me just to confirm over

long-term relationships the man is more

likely to maintain their desire for the

woman in a heterosexual relationship

that's right the woman is more likely to

lose desire for her partner that's right

and we're talking here remember about

spontaneous desire okay okay is that

remember there there the responsive

desire we talked about earlier and we

know that this is the interesting bit

when it comes to women's desire it's

actually much more easier to trigger

with a wide range of sexual stimuli than

men's so women's responsive desire works

brilliantly you could say it works even

better than men's so spontaneous desire

is only one type of Desire it's that

feeling of out of the blue lust

horniness want to rip your clothes off

it's partly attributable to to higher

levels of androgens like testosterone

but certainly not exclusively there's a

massive social component to it as well

so yes men find it easier to maintain

that um but I think it's really

important to say because there will be

men listening to this that will be

worried about their desire as we've said

earlier 15% is actually quite a large

number it's not all men some men really

struggle to keep hold of that

spontaneous desire in a long-term

relationship and just to clarify the

reactive desire is the desire that kicks

in once you've begun basically yeah some

kind of sexual stimuli some kind of

sexual

currency um it comes after

arousal I want to close off on the

subject of parents um I'm not a parent

yet but my brother has three kids and

they're under the age of six they're six

and under he's got three of them I'm

going to send in my book yes I'm going

I'm sure he's he's going to listen

anyway um and from that I've I've been

able to understand on a surface level

the plight of a parent sleep um kids

waking up in the middle of the night

work pressures a lot of people are

working at home now as well so that that

has impacts on sleep and how you're

feeling and your mental health and all

those things and to think that couples

irrespective of children are struggling

with sex you you said at the start of

this conversation but it says in your

book as well that we're having less and

less sex um when you compare one decade

to the previous decade and there was

another study that I saw that said

there's been General declines in sexual

frequency in other count around the

world as well like Japan Australia

Finland and the USA mhm so we know that

like we're we're having less sex with

each other anyway and then you throw

kids into the mix which I just I don't

know I've not been there yet so I've not

crossed that bridge but I'm trying to

figure out when I do come to that bridge

how on Earth I'm going to be able to

have sexual desire when I'm a very busy

CEO running multiple businesses

traveling all over the world seeing my

partner currently not very much you know

and trying to make those moments where

we do spend time together special then

you throw in little Timmy who's

going and he's not going to care about

my schedule no and to it's going to

become my priority for rightfully so if

he behaves himself and then where sex

going to go where you know yeah this is

why it's it's a real challenge for

parents and I think one of the key

things one of the reasons I wrote the

book actually is because the first thing

that we can do for parents is talk about

the fact that it's normal okay it's not

you it's not your relationship it's

nothing about the two of you together

that means you shouldn't be together

it's challenging to have a good sex life

when you've got young kids at home it's

challenging for everyone I think the

second thing that we can do is explain

to people what the factors are that tend

to make a difference

so people know about pregnancy people

know about trying to conceive they

understand that these things will impact

on their sex life but I think the things

that they don't acknowledge or don't

realize as much is the trajectory that

that sets them on in the early stages

and the trajectory that that first year

of having a newborn baby will set you on

in terms of that reduction in sexual

currency in terms of resentments that

might start to breed and how your

relationship Dynamic becomes in terms of

how equal the mental load is and we know

that the mental load so that's kind of

the unequal division of labor which

often falls on women in heterosexual

relationships particularly when kids

come along we know that there's a direct

correlation between couples who divide

that household labor in a kind of

Equitable and transparent way and sexual

satisfaction so it seems quite hard to

believe but actually it doesn't have to

be completely equal but if you feel as

though your partner is pulling their

weight if you feel as though it's not

all automatically falling to you we know

that people generally tend to have

better sex so there's all kinds of

things which parents need to know about

their sex life that they don't is that

about resentment though is that yeah

it's resentment and it's about what I

mentioned earlier about seeing your

partner almost as a third child you're

you're you're the captain of the house

right you're the boss of the house and

you have to hold in your mind everything

you're the CEO of the house you have to

hold in your mind everything that needs

doing even for your partner yeah that

they they're not holding anything

they're not remembering the kids'

birthdays they're not thinking they need

to buy a present you're having to do

that that takes your attention away from

sex and it also raises your resentment

and sexual satisfaction can really

suffer but there are a few other things

that I like to talk about in the book

that I think are really important for

parents and one of them is I compare the

Journey of Parenthood a little bit like

um a kind of navigation across the seas

right so Parenthood is the storm and

it's a storm for everyone and there are

different phases of the storm and some

of it you just need to Baton down the

hatches and get through it as unscathed

as you can and not worry about sex so

much that might be like the newborn

phase but then there are also parts of

the journey where you might have found

yourself knocked off course a little bit

and what you actually need to do is take

stock of the boat and say hold on what

what's going on here what are we doing

if we continue on this trajectory 10 15

years down the line we're likely to be

in a place where sex is

unrecoverable versus if we make a small

change a degree or two to the left or

right very small changes over the long

term we might end up in an entirely

different destination

and so the book is all about what are

those small changes and this might be

surprising to some people it's not

having more sex it's other ways of

increasing sexual satisfaction so for

example we know that when we turn each

other down gently for sex it increases

sexual satisfaction we know that when we

increase sexual currency which doesn't

have to take much time we increase

sexual satisfaction so there are many

things that people can do even if they

don't feel they have time or head space

for sex or until they have the time and

head space for sex that can just keep

that boat kind of heading in the right

direction what about what's the

relationship there with sleep and sex

then because obviously if if I've got

little Timmy crying at night time at

3:00 a.m. uh I'm going to be poorly

slept the next day which means will that