we have beliefs within us that are just

too hard to remove and they may have

come from traumatic experiences let's

learn how to put it in a box Professor

Steve Peters he's a world leading

psychiatrist the author of a number of

very influential books including the

chimp Paradox a man who has helped

multiple British athletes I've been

seeing Steve for three years now look

just any psychologist that's Dr Steve

Peters and the person who wants to help

people I started working with Chris Hoy

I went undercover to the Athens Olympics

so we could make sure that he got his

gold medal and running a Solomon the

emotion that that guy was getting at

that point was to being so unpleasant

that part way through a world

championship shook hands and walked out

so in Ronnie's case what do you do so

the very first step is oh really and

that is what winners do for people to

shift they've got to have psychological

mindedness which means they've got to

understand that it's not about what

happens to us in life it's how we deal

with it what role does Early Childhood

trauma play in how we respond in

situations and well now we're really

getting deep before we're even born the

emotional memory is starting to react to

that trauma your parent might suddenly

say are you just an idiot but something

might have happened just before that

where you've got one out of ten and you

were bottom of the spelling test and the

two together get emotionally Tangled and

that then damages the circus so you get

people often who are very low

self-esteem how does one go about

working with someone who's got serious

self-esteem issues I'm gonna be

controversially I'd say

whenever there's a podcast episode that

I record that really has a profound

impact on me I always want to provide a

little bit of a disclaimer at the start

to make sure that you give it a chance

and this is one of those episodes that

comes along once in a while which I

absolutely absolutely adore because of

the depth of wisdom and the potential it

offers to change your life so what I'm

going to ask you to do

is to listen to this episode to give it

a chance and to try and get to the end

because this is one of the rare ones

that once in a while I think will

genuinely change your life it'll be one

of those episodes that you pass around

to your friends

foreign

[Music]

how would you summarize your

professional academic

bio and experience

okay that's a tough starter uh I would

say that I'm a person who wants to help

people

so what I've done throughout life is in

order to help people what do I need so

one of the things I felt I needed when I

was a young man is I needed a medical

background

so all of the work I've done like in

Psychiatry and particularly becoming

consult psychiatrist it wasn't that I

wanted to be that it was I needed that

in order to be able to help people

effectively

so my experience in life has always been

the more people I can help and the more

circumstances the better equipped I'll

be to deal with whatever comes through

the door so I think of it slightly

different to be about a career it's more

of an approach and an objective in life

and then what I need to do is learn in

order to be good at that in terms of

your academic qualifications yeah what

are those

and pick my friends I'll laugh at this

because I've got five degrees so it

effectively

um I started off doing mathematics but

um and teaching but then I went back

into medicine and then from there their

scientific qualifications I've got

medical degree and then I went through

the Royal College so you specialize in

Psychiatry and get your membership exams

and then I've specialized again in

looking at things like um because I got

involved with sports people

um I did an MSC so that we look at

Sports Medicine itself again and brush

up on my medical background because I'm

still a doctor at heart and then because

I teach at University I did an MSC in a

medical education so I I sort of again

following what I've said as a theme I I

think what do I need and what would help

me to do this and then so that's why

I've collected these degrees

um so that that was my academic

background and then in terms of

experience what give me um an overview

of the sort of plethora of experience

you've had practically working with

people

um in different contexts in Industries

yeah I mean I went through a medical

training and then you do your routine

job so you mentioned surgery and so on

and our Trend in general practice and

then went into Psychiatry when I hit a

psychiatrist one of my disciplines

during training for GP from there in

Psychiatry you look across a vast

Spectrum you select your job so I

covered General adult psychiatry then I

covered old age Psychiatry a child

psychiatry learning disability and

adding into forensics so when you've

done all that kind of training

experience then you start to really

specialize and initially I was going

into specializing in old age Psychiatry

um I felt the the

um what the service at that time was a

long time ago was quite poor for old age

and there was very little research it's

before I received it so the

anti-dementia drug came out and uh I

wanted to go into that field but by

virtue of the fact I'm a teacher I got a

post in sort of teaching and University

alongside clinical work and that meant

really I need to do General adults so I

then set off in general adult psychiatry

I did a lot of clinical work 20 years in

the NHS but progressed because the

difficult cases are often personality

disorders and and how we manage them and

particularly forensic style so

Psychopathic clocally cold we'd call

them dysocial personality disorders how

do you manage these people so I ended up

becoming by default a specialist in this

field and then ended up working in a

secure Hospital working with people

under the mental health act to a

detained of transgressed the law so then

you go into the legal aspects of how we

deal with people who have transgressed

the law and are now held under the

mental Health act almost indefinitely

and you try and obviously get people

back out of these secure hospitals if

they're safe to come into the community

so that in a nutshell is how my career

develops so you end up with a vast

experience over the last 40 years and

then hopefully you can pull on that

experience when you're working with

everyday people

working with everyday people

um you ended up working in the field of

sports yes which seems less

obvious as a path for you to take based

on your um you know based on your

experience before that didn't seem like

you're really aiming intentionally at

working in Sports no not at all uh I'm

not a sports fan I'm a people fan which

means where people choose to work then I

follow them and I've got to learn their

world so

um obviously you've got Sports

Specialists Sports psychologists the

Specialists I come in a bit left field I

was in forensics at the time but I was

still teaching at University one of my

previous medical students I teach

medicine went as a doctor

um with a a cycling team that was

working for the Olympics so I knew

nothing about this and he called him

he's an excellent student but he wanted

an opinion on somebody who is a

professional who was struggling mentally

so I came in just to give an opinion and

work with this guy now I can only name

people who've you know gone public so I

can't give names and

um he excelled and then I can name the

next person at that point I was

introduced to Chris high and Chris an

amazing guy absolutely amazing so really

it wasn't easy I need a bit of work to

do to help him to get his mind to do

what he wanted to do with his mind uh he

went off I went undercover to the Athens

Olympics he asked me to go with him so

we could make sure that he got his gold

if I could contribute he got his gold

medal and then said really I want you in

the team so I didn't go off for a year

and after a year I was convinced I was

working Vicki Pendleton and I knew that

needed a bit more work and she's again

an amazing person a great people to work

with and so I then took the leap

um I mean at that point I said in

towards retirement then so that's well

over 20 years ago now and then from

there when I worked with them the

swimming team came in British swimming

and then it was just a I don't know a

Cascade of all the teams and sire

started working across the Olympic teams

and then went off to Beijing Olympics

and it just I don't know again momentum

and I I just got this reputation well

this guy can help you mentally

um you know so I work alongside the

cultures obviously they're the people

who take them to the front and I do the

mental side of it so it wasn't a planned

routine and I still do all my other work

I still work with the public I still

work in other areas with doctors with in

the NHS with the the police I've done a

lot of work with uh business people so

it it just became generic at that point

sir David brailsford who's been on this

podcast

um who was the performance director I

believe of the British cycling team took

over a time when it was struggling and

led it to become maybe the greatest

cycling team of all time he he says that

your appointment was the I quote the

best appointment

he's ever made

now when I think about

you know you getting that first call

from that first athlete the one you said

were struggling

um and then working with Chris hoy

what exactly are you doing for them

I think this is like no matter who comes

in the door say you come to me what I've

got says I'm not I'm not a sports

psychologist I'm not the specialist what

I am is a specialist in the human mind

so I've made that my career and so I

look at how the mind thinks how it

functions and I ask you to First be a

student really and I want you to learn

your unique mind I'm going to give you

the blueprint then together we're going

to work out how you perceive the world

perceive yourself perceive others what

do you want to do with your life when

we've done all of that then an only then

would ask to go into your world so then

we can apply what you've learned so it

was interesting that two people I work

with the public again were Vicki

Pendleton

um it was probably still the world's

most successful female Sprint on the

bike and then running a Solomon in snoka

and both were interviewed and they both

said that to the Press they said you

know he did not take us to sport he took

us to ourself and work with us as people

and so that we've gone in a good place

then we went to sport then he said right

what is it you're choosing to do with

your life and then I have to learn then

because obviously if you take me to your

world I don't know your world so I've

got to go in there and learn what it is

you're experiencing how you're

interpreting it it's a teamwork and then

I have to test things out so that's

basically what I did when I started

working with Chris hoy he asked him what

he was in wanting to do what was he

finding easy what was he finding

difficult and then try and work out what

I felt he needed to do and how he

managed his mind and then it keeps

pushing this point it is a skill you've

got to acquire it so I I don't have

other people might be able to do a

process I can't do that what I do is ask

you to work with me and try things out

where you're gaining a skill for example

a skill of recognizing where the emotion

is actually helpful or unhelpful whether

you can remove the emotion or need to

work with it or whether you can actually

just dismiss it and learn how to move

yourself on and so it's a skill to be

able to recognize things and then know

how to deal with that particular thing

that you're experiencing could you give

me a case study from one athlete you've

worked with

so that that will allow me to work

through that process so first

identifying the emotion potentially

working on whether it's positive or

negative how it's serving me and then

how you might with your process lead me

to a positive outcome productive well

I'm going to pick um Chris Hyatt and

Ronnie Sullivan on the grounds that both

of them are very public about working

with me and and they put out what I'm

about to talk about so when I was Chris

what he was saying he was doing the kilo

at the time which is four Laps on a bike

but it's very similar to doing 400

meters where you know you've got to get

the Judgment right if you go off too

fast you burn out and you won't finish

if you go off too slow you'll never get

the ground back so it's a really tough

really tough event

um so in the key law I had to learn that

um which wasn't too hard because I'm

familiar with 400 meters so and then

when I did that I have to test out what

his beliefs are you know when he sets

off on a bike where is he pulling his

focus and that's what Chris was saying

is when I set up on the bike my focus

can be distracted and it will drift off

and I might start thinking about what

other people have just done when I'm

watching my competitors or am I going

fast enough or and you start to do an

analysis now in his particular event

what I said to him is it's not going to

help you to do an analysis in this event

some sport it is because you have a

breathing space where you can analyze

and then get back into what I call

computer mode so he needs to program his

mind to have a fixed leg speed a fixed

markers on the track so that he's not

thinking at all there's no analysis that

was my summary of it so we tried that

out so when he went to the Olympics

everything was completely learning to

switch off any thinking and Analysis and

that's not easy easy said than done but

we practice this so on the holding Camp

which there's like a three-week camp

before the Olympics I went to the

holding camp in Newport Within and every

day we practice this so we do 20 minutes

of him learning to focus and then we had

specifics on the bike for when he got on

it to do this kilo

um and to me he was an excellent student

clearly he committed to it and he would

say then that when he got on the bike

and he went round the day of the

Olympics he forgot where he was until he

passed the line so to me that's like

even complete Focus mode so again credit

to Chris why is switching off his

mind in such a way or focusing his mind

in such a way okay why is that the

Neuroscience is complex so I'm going to

cut corners and do it very black and

white and simplified it's complex but in

a nutshell if you there are three

systems in your head keeping it very

simple it's much more complex than that

but simplifying it one of the systems

will hopefully to think very logically

and I call that the human system it

thinks logically but it's very slow

which means if you operate with a human

your body and your reflexes will slow

down because you're analyzing as you go

along and it slows the system so you're

more pensive so that's really good in

certain circumstances but it's awful in

fast-moving Sports

so if it goes into that it's very likely

he's slow down it's not going to help

him

if he goes into the second system which

will probably come back to the chimp

system this is a primitive system which

thinks it's more than just a reaction an

impulsive system it thinks when it moves

it can move at speed

but it thinks emotionally so this is the

part of his brain that will think

thoughts that are not helpful such as

should I go faster at this point and

then it may make a decision to go faster

and burn out so that would be crazy

um final the third system is a computer

it just needs programming the key to the

computer particularly in sports is it

moves so fast it's approximately 20

times quicker than the human system so

execute and it's about four times

quicker than the chimp system so if you

get into computer mode particularly fast

moving sports it doesn't analyze or

think it's automatic thinking so it

works with keys like a computer is that

the autopilot exactly it's an autopilot

you're programmed it's a behavior that's

programmed in but so when I came down

the stairs to see you today I I know the

route I've done it 100 times so I was I

was holding my iPad but I was on

autopilot yeah because I came down the

stairs and your body knows what to do

you don't need to think whereas if we

put an obstacle in there then it will

stop okay because it doesn't know what

to do it's not programmed okay but

you'll have to think man is is is the

computer where our habit

this habit formation yes all three do

work together yeah but the computer is

one that just blots out the other two or

if they go silent it can operate and

it's the computer that drives us to work

or like you say it goes on a familiar

track but it can also generate automatic

thinking okay so when you meet somebody

your chimp may start to think is this

person going to like me am I going to

come across okay it could give you

anything

um whereas the computer system is

automatic so if you've programmed a

belief that everybody loves me then it's

much more likely when you meet people

you're going to be very open

um and your body language will be

positive if you have I'm being severe

obviously if you ever believe nobody

likes me or I'm not as good as everyone

else which unfortunately a lot of

computers are programmed without then

whenever you meet someone you're on edge

and you're very conscious about what

you're saying and doing because you

figured that it's going to be the truth

that they don't like and you're trying

to overcome that belief which is so

unhelpful now that I call the gremlin

but these beliefs are programmed into us

and we hold thousands of beliefs often

without knowing what they are hmm

okay we're going to come back to that

because I want to talk about the gremlin

the trauma and where all of those

beliefs come from and how which ones we

can resolve but to your point then about

Chris Hoyle now so Chris was asking to

how do in in my world he was saying how

do I silence my human and chimp systems

from analyzing and thinking which is

their job and how do I go into computer

mode so I forget where I am and just get

on with the process and he did this

nicely Ronnie Sullivan wasn't in that

place and again Ronnie's giving me

permission he keeps saying tell

everybody everything but I won't tell

you everything a lot of stuff is behind

Nocturnals so he's a great guy I love

running Sullivan we've been friends now

for over 10 years so it's a privilege to

work with him it's one of the hardest

working of my students and and he's

saying to me all the time he Rings

regularly so I've spoken to him already

yesterday uh so we talk but the key to

Ronnie was his chimp was so active

in being anxious about how he came

across whether he'd perform well

um what people would say how well his

Rivals might be doing it was just giving

him what is natural and healthy but

extremely unhelpful and that was

creating very anxious moments so before

I met him I had a look because I didn't

know anything about Ronnie and or

snooker and I went online to say can I

see some YouTubes of him and I saw him

hitting uh the white ball with acoustic

and I thought well obviously that's not

the right thing to be doing and I saw

him walk out of a competition which

distressed me you know I didn't know the

guy but I thought wow the emotion that

that guy was getting at that point was

to being so unpleasant that part way

through a World Championships

competition he just suddenly stopped for

all the shook hands and walked out and I

just thought you know when I saw that I

definitely want to help this man and we

went back and actually looked at that

incident and I said what was it and I

love this

um and he challenged me at the beginning

but after about an hour of chatting he

said I get this because on that incident

he said to me there was this voice

sort of saying just go out of it you

don't have to be I don't want to be here

and he said and I'm saying to myself I

want to play snooker I just want to

enjoy the game and this voice got more

strong sin right hit the queue and he

said I hit the queue ball and he said

I'm walking out and the voice is still

going right just keep walking we're not

we're out of here I can't deal with this

um and he said now I get it there were

two of me

there was me trying to do what I want

and there's this voice which I couldn't

manage at all and I couldn't stop it

doing what I wanted to do so once I

explained the model to him

um and the model isn't everyone it's for

those who can relate to it he said I get

this because my human system my chimp

system are so different their poles

apart so he's worked for 10 years saying

how do I recognize and manage this chimp

system so when he came to me it wasn't

just in snow career his whole life

he could say that his emotions were

getting the better of him and it was a

whole system that was emotionally driven

and it was almost paranoid about things

it was Defensive it was making him feel

vulnerable it was giving him anxiety and

it's a really powerful system

so it varies in person to person some

people are very simple chimp systems

which are not that strong and others

most of us have chimp systems we we

really recognize they're there and they

they mean business and they give us

emotions which drive us to to do things

make decisions have behaviors that often

are destructive not just unconstructive

so in Ronnie's case what what do you do

right we started the game to recognize

the systems and say right let's just

start because again I try to take people

through a series of steps rather than

just throw things at them and so the

very first step is let's define Who You

Are and let's define what your chimp is

like so we recognize because you're

everyone's unique so I can't tell you

who you are know what your system is

I'll give you General things like this

system is impulsive it doesn't think

consequence it's quite emotionally

driven when we're tired it takes over

and people generally start I get that so

neuroscientifically that's what happens

in the brain so how do we start to

recognize the difference and then when

we do let's start simply to say what is

it that's prodding my chimp into action

and this is where it gets a little more

complex the chimp system can just react

so if I for example your friends with me

and one day I just shout at you for some

reason and get annoyed and your chimp

system is most likely going to show it

back but if it believes I'm not as good

as other people or I can't Co-op it's

likely to go quiet and feel very

intimidated and hurt

so again we have to work out what your

chimp system is doing but on the other

hand the chimp system the newer Sciences

it always turns to the computer and says

what beliefs do I hold before I make my

decision and this happens in a fifth of

a second so let's say you're about to

shout back at me and your chimp looks

into the computer and one of your

beliefs I don't know what they are might

be if you shout back up people it makes

you look foolish yeah well I can tell

you what my beliefs are right and I can

tell you where they came from so my my

parents shout where my my parents had a

very loud shouting relationship I've

never shouted in my life because of that

because I learned firsthand so whilst

you believe my belief is that

um shouting achieves nothing

um it's it's harmful for both parties

you lose when you do it you're not heard

when you do it

um uh no stop there so I can do that's

brilliant yeah so just to try and do the

steady with this is what you're saying

to me is I absolutely resonate with

these beliefs they're not something I've

given you which is a danger so if I said

to you uh where we want to try and stop

you shouting it never gets you anywhere

you have to resonate with that that's

why I can't do it you have to assist to

me Steve that really resonates I've got

to have evidence yes yeah and you have

to believe this and you can't brainwash

your Brit at seven to believing you've

got to experience it and say this Rings

true to me so once you've worked that

out and you reinforced it which it

sounds like you've done through your

life oh God yeah then you you don't

shout and it's not that you can't it's

your computer's stopping you because the

chimp has to listen to those beliefs so

before it does anything it can't move

so let's look at the opposite then if

someone had you know if someone grew up

in a household where they were shouting

and they and they for whatever reason

gained the evidence that it was an

effective way to communicate or whatever

um how does someone go about

unprogramming that belief well it's not

my job to do that and try to explain

what I mean I I agree with you to me

shouting is it's not very helpful you

know at all however if somebody that's

not my job to tell people I said to them

why why would you hold that belief and I

do have people who say it because people

don't listen unless you shout some

people you have to shout at them and so

I draw breath because obviously I'm not

agreeing but I'm not going to try and

change the mind I'm going to challenge

them and say can we challenge that to

make sure that's what you believe but if

they are insistent there are certain

people in my life that shouting works

for it's not for me to say that what I

would do then is say right let's say it

does work what that's in the short term

so now we're in the devil in the detail

our chimp system is working in the short

term it does not look at long-term

consequence

so when your human now comes in your

human system will look at rationality

what's the long-term consequence of

shouting now it may be with Personnel

there's no long-term consequence and you

think it doesn't make any difference I'm

going to shout right they get it and

we're okay with that and I'm not saying

that's wrong I'm saying it's what they

want to do however they might suddenly

say with me actually you're right with

person B when I shout there is

repercussion on the person and I'm

actually hurting them and also in their

eyes it's not it's demeaning they see me

as demeaning myself so it's not actually

working in the long term it's not

building a relationship that I want so

it can be you tease the devil in the

detail out you have a blanket by the

sound of it belief that it doesn't

matter who it is you don't shout yeah I

would agree with that however I'm going

to give you more devil in detail you

have to be careful because if you add on

to that that shouting

is something that's a failure and then

now I've I have a challenge on you

because if you think about it if you

then suddenly out of the blue did Shout

and you're going to now start beating

yourself up potentially and thinking

yeah I would yeah so that's not that

helpful so what a better belief I would

suggest and see if you resonate is to

say if you shout even though you don't

agree with it because all your beliefs

in my opinion are right uh if you shall

forgive yourself and say you know that

is a chimp system and maybe I need to

reinforce my computer system because my

chimp got out there and I'm not proud of

that because actually I don't think that

helped but I'd like people to understand

that we can only manage the chimp system

we do not control it and if it wants to

get the better of us it can

so all we can do is keep reinforcing the

computer beliefs and strengthen them and

you've done it beautifully by having a

number of beliefs and then you've almost

got this gang of autopilots yeah so if

one gets shaken the others come in and

that's how the brain will work so I like

more than one belief but on the other

hand if under circumstances your chimp

gets out and you shout I want you to

understand that your chimp got out it

wasn't you that's not an excuse model

you have to apologize if you think

you've done wrong but I am saying it's a

skill model which means you says to me

now I do not want to shout so you didn't

do it however you're responsible

you can't just absolve yourself so I

always liken it to having a dog I'm a

great dog lover if one of my dogs comes

in here and bites you I can't just go

with my dog the answer is I have to

manage this system I have to manage my

dog

and it's my responsibility 100.

so I work with people to say be kind to

yourself because this system means

business and whatever your system is

like it will break through there will be

does you do not manage it

Let's Pretend today has been a day where

I didn't manage it the dog got off the

lead and bit somebody whatever you know

my I I lost my temp or whatever and I

I'm reflecting on it thinking oh God you

know and I was passed and I'm thinking

God I wish I hadn't done that yeah what

what can I actively do to

prevent it happening again how do I

reinforce that computer let me go back

to the to the Dom because it's probably

the best example uh what you wouldn't do

I hope is kick the dog the dog's doing

what the dog does you know the dogs the

dog doesn't no so your job is to say

first I'm going to apologize to the

person

because that should not have happened I

know whatever I need to do or compensate

I do whatever and apologize the second

thing is naturally I assume you're going

to say well I need to work on the dog

I need to learn to train the dog and

manage it so I know exactly how to stop

that happening again but what I'm not

gonna do is beat myself up

for not being able to manage the dog why

is that a bad idea we're dating yourself

up yeah just like you know oh God I'm

such an idiot I shouldn't have done that

and it's sort of self-evident I mean

again this is the devil in the detail if

you said to me you know when I do that

it it makes me feel better just to think

right I've I've got to go up myself here

and there's nothing wrong with that but

what I'm going to do is draw a line

after a certain time

and then I'm going to say right you've

had to go at yourself get over it yeah

let's put that into action now

right then I'm not disapproving I think

it's self-evident that I'm not going to

prove for somebody beating themselves

and going back to the same thing over

and over and over and then escalating

that so it doesn't just become I can't

manage the dog I'm an incompetent person

you know and I get things wrong and

everyone else seems to do this what's

wrong with me that's the problem it's

now going down a very dangerous route is

that depositing certain evidence into

the computer about you not being

self-worthy which then is going to make

your chimp recipe yeah well the chimp's

gonna be irrational so when the chimp

brain takes over because it puts our

beliefs in as well as we do so it for

example the dog one it will expand on

that so there's something wrong with me

so let's go to you you shouted and then

you start saying you know I'm not a

great person

you know because my belief is great

people shouldn't be doing that and it's

okay giving an excuse and that's my

chimp but it's not good enough

and I can't allow it to happen again and

I've done damage to this person

irreparably and and now you can see how

it's starting to escalate and you're

putting all these beliefs inside your

system so they're going to be

unconscious beliefs that you're carrying

with you so then you go and meet some

friend and those beliefs might come

straight in am I going to damage this

person am I going to say something

stupid again I'm gonna lose it again

this is all really destructive and

unhelpful you know sometimes I find it

difficult to apologize

specifically you know when you're like

in the heat of a situation you might

have had a an argument with your partner

or whatever else about something tiny

yeah in that moment sometimes I find it

difficult to follow this I think I've

gotten 10x better I'm thinking about the

last sort of Confrontation I had with my

with my girlfriend and in fact all I did

was listen and then apologized after you

should finish speaking because I

genuinely was like I completely

understand

um but I think sometimes over the last

10 years I just think why didn't you

just what is it that's preventing you

from just saying especially when you

know you've you've done something which

is which isn't in line with who you want

to be or how you want to behave why

didn't I just apologize straight away

what is it I've got to make a guess

because I was like I said everyone's

unique so if I work in the or say well

again we're looking at what beliefs

you're holding is do you think

apologizing is something that's strong

or weak

good question

um

it's a good question and I think I'm

going to say that my belief on that has

changed okay so I think for the first

over the last 10 years the first eight

years I would have seen it as a weakness

and then in the context of my

relationship I see it as our biggest

strength that I can both now listen in

total silence make someone feel heard

and understood and then apologize to

them I think I see it as this like real

superpower that I have that I've

developed but in the in the eight years

where I didn't I don't feel like I was

apologizing enough I definitely saw it

as a a weakness I saw it as admitting

defeat and that's where I'm going so I'm

saying to you uh it's a shame it took

eight years yeah and that's why I like

to do this work because you look back

thinking if I'd learned this eight years

ago it would have made a big difference

but it that may not resonate some might

say well I don't get I don't see it as

weakness or strength so what difference

so I would try a different attack

consider that how important is it that

you're happy or that your partner's

Happy who would you put first

in the situations where I didn't

apologize I put myself first but what do

you want

I think in those situations I

I don't even know I want it to be right

I don't know I don't oh good good this

but I'll leave just finished on that bit

and I'll come back to the next one which

is where I think you're coming from

um I'll give you a surprise coming here

so if somebody said

my girlfriend's more important than me

I love this girl I don't want to lose

this girl and the last thing one is

upsetting her to it's easy to make an

apology yeah and it's easy to recognize

I don't want to hurt this person and

even if I'm in the right and she's in

the wrong it doesn't matter I'm not it's

not about winning which is what the

chimp brain does it wants to win okay

the human wants to resolve the situation

so saying I'm really sorry that you're

upset and I didn't mean to upset you

doesn't mean you're admitting fault or

whatever it just means you're trying to

say that you're more important than this

this is trivial

that's so true and so that might

resonate with people but you might get

somebody which is where you're going

where you say well of course I love it

but hang on that's not right because if

she's done something that's wrong and

I've reacted to that she created that

problem I know I'm wrong to react but

hang on I want an apology

right so that's common this is the

surprise when you look at the

Neuroscience behind this you think oh

that must be my human being rational

logical but actually isn't

when we look at this why a girl called

it the chimp system when we look at

chimpanzees they operate with the chimp

system they do have a human system but

it's quite primitive which is where I

got the analogy so I looked at the gray

tips back in the 1990s and the

publication came out in 2018 for the

people academic to show the chimpanzee

and human think very differently to the

other greater Apes we're very different

there's a different way of approaching

things and interpreting so we do have

the same system with chimps so that

chimp system is the same and the way it

works is unfairness so experiments with

chimpanzees I'm sure you find them on

YouTube where they do unfairness to

chimpanzees and even

um basic like capuchin monkeys

demonstrate the same thing they must

have fairness so never we demand

fairness we're actually operating from

the chimp system which is emotionally

based the human can accept unfairness

the human gets over and says get a life

you know stop trying to deal with trivia

and get fairness

but our chimp system demands fairness

I bought your book for uh one of my best

friends recently

when I say recently I mean in the last

seven days and I said make sure you read

that over the Christmas break and they

said they came to me and said do you

know the best part of the book for me

she absolutely loved the book she said

there was one sentence in it in the book

which made her go which is where you say

in the chin Paradox that life isn't fair

yeah and you actually I wrote it down

earlier on because because she said that

to me you you've referenced it as an

obvious thing you you say um

have realistic expectations and remind

yourself of the obvious life is not fair

stress will happen things will go wrong

for some reason that sentence resonated

with her really profoundly because

I think the friction she'd had in her

life was expecting fairness yeah and

that I'll pushed this I'm pushing the

next book now oh this is I mean this

one's a pass through the jungle is to me

is is a step up no it is the reason I

did that one was to try and this exactly

what I'm saying I threw all that lot out

as a chimp Paradox to say these are

Concepts and she's giving what I've

experienced doing talks over the last 20

years now to the public and and various

organizations is people come out of that

and everybody picks something different

it's what resonates with you so had I

been working one-to-one with her I do

this like fishing expedition to see

what's resonating and then we expand on

that so that's why I've gone into much

more detail on this next book to say

right if these bits resonate he's the

science behind at this time when

references you're gonna read it up but

if you don't he's the practicalities so

that's much more of an investigative how

do you use this now and what she's

really doing and I've tried to push this

in the next book is to say what she's

saying there is you know what my first

step is acceptance

and that is what winners do successful

people go you know it doesn't mean

acceptance roll over it means let me

start from what's in front of me and

stop fighting it and then work with it

and then see what I can do with it

whereas when you look at the chimp brain

which generally is not as successful can

be what it does is it says I don't want

what's in front of me I want it

different this is not what should happen

so it spends its time getting aggravated

rather than accepting and moving

straight into plan of action so we often

spend a lot of time agitating about

what's happened or what's in front of us

instead of saying it's happened one of

my favorite podcast episodes that I

recorded with a guy called Mo gauda he

said to me

um we're we're unhappy when our

expectations of how life should be going

are unmet hmm

well that's why when I've gone in that's

in the new book I've tried to say how do

these systems approach life

um what I've explained in that is the

chimp system writes the script first

before we leave the house so it will say

things like I'm going to drive to work

today and I'm going to get there in 30

minutes there'll be no hold UPS to be so

you can imagine the second there's

something in the way it explodes because

that's what it does it reacts whereas

the human system doesn't what the human

system goes out with zero expectation

but as hopes I hope to get them 30

minutes that's a world of difference and

then when I find there's a traffic jam

it doesn't react it responds so the two

systems are very different and if we can

learn how to go into human mode then we

set off for work there's a hold up we

don't have an emotional reaction we have

a response which is accept

there's the word accept what's in front

of me but then follow through with a

plan so in the book I always say first

step is accept but immediately say right

what's the plan because that's what

humans do the human system wants

Solutions it wants resolution it wants

to move on the chimp system wants to

express emulsion

and then remove the problem not solve it

there's a difference just remove it

ignore it displace it pretend it hasn't

happened that's not ideal because it

tends to come back and bite us how much

does what role does trauma play like

early childhood trauma play in how we

respond in situations and well now we're

really getting deep

um it depends on if again I'm being

black and white if someone has a really

bad trauma at childhood it can have

repercussions throughout life because

now the circuits in your brain are

developing so if you have a really

traumatic event and and not necessarily

how what we would Define as traumatic

it's what the child defines so I'm being

a bit facetious here for example if it's

got its favorite sweets and somebody

steals them

that could be a traumatic childhood

event at that moment in time the impact

was so significant that it has

repercussions it's damaging the circuits

it might for example perceive that as

nothing in life is safe anything I have

can be removed however most children get

over it in seconds you know but it

depends on the child and what stage

they're at and what the circumstances

are at that point somebody else might

have child abuse for example which is

much more likely to have repercussion

throughout life so but we'd still get

children who get child abuse and have no

repercussions so it isn't a definite

black and white it's probabilities

is it the way that I've come to

understand it is almost like we're

wearing our own sunglasses which is

a metaphor for like interpretation yeah

so me and my brother we could be

identical twins we go through the same

experience but we're wearing different

sunglasses so we interpret that

experience differently we deposit

evidence about what that experience

means into our computer yeah

um you're absolutely right and and it

all hangs on for example somebody like

your parent might suddenly say oh you're

just an idiot you know but something

might have happened just before that

where you've gone to school and you've

got one out of ten and you were bottom

of the spelling test and you've come

home and then your father you've done

something at home and made a mistake and

he says you're an idiot and the two

together get emotionally Tangled

and that then damages the circuits

whereas normally if you come home you

just got 9 out of 10 for the spelling

come top of the class and he says you

need you just bat it off and think well

I got 9 to 10. so therefore the brain

doesn't pick it up so again I'm trying

to give example it's so complicated what

I would say is it's hard to find these

because they happen often very young in

life and the emotional aspects and our

memories emotionally and how we

formulate things have about a three-year

start on the human circuit which doesn't

come in for three years approximately so

that's why we have no memories of

childhood we can't remember before the

age of two because it's not working so

our emotional memory begins in fatal

life so before we're even born the

emotional memory is starting to work out

what trauma is and react to that trauma

so we react to the mother's heartbeat

for example

um and again every fetus is different

it's on Spectrum and then we follow that

through and therefore the machine can be

damaged early in life it can be damaged

at any point and then we have something

which I've then tried to determine um

give a terminology of gram a goblin to

so Gremlin is a belief or an experience

you can process and actually get rid of

whereas a goblin is something which is

really damaged the circuits so you get

people often who have very low

self-esteem and that's going to continue

throughout life now I'm certainly not

saying we shouldn't try and get rid of

that generally we can but it could be

they always have moments of low

self-esteem and what they need to do is

accept they're always going to appear

but I'm going to have a way of dealing

with them and then going back onto a

much more positive footing so sometimes

we have beliefs within us that are just

too hard to remove and and they may have

come from traumatic experiences what I'm

saying is I'm not rolling over and

saying oh well this is damaged goods I'm

saying let's learn if they do raise

their heads let's learn how to put them

in a box stop them from having impact in

my life today and then work forward from

that and again that's a skill to do and

it just needs people to learn how to do

that so we can we can take down

gremlin's Gremlins but we can't goblins

you have to accept the reason I brought

that terminology is uh sadly I've seen

over the years when I've been in an

educational role as a doctor I've

trained doctors and clinical

psychologists nursing staff to how we

deal with emotions and what I've seen

distressed is when you get well-meaning

therapist of any kind

um and you they're trying to change

something that can't be changed and you

have to say you know the circuit's

damaged and rather than try and change

it let's learn to deal with it in a very

constructive way but not put that

pressure on the person to do something

which we're probably never going to

achieve so I'd always say try I'd always

say let's try and process an event and

let's try moving on so they remove it so

great if you can get rid of low

self-esteem but if it keeps raising its

head let's so stop putting pressure on

that person and work with it you still

try and remove it so but but there's a

point you said and look let's accept it

but let's not let it take over let's

learn how to put it in a box

so it's a bit like a virus in a computer

system exactly the same we accept its

damage but we can box it in

and if it does raise its head we mop it

up again

it's interesting because I from doing

this podcast I used to believe that your

traumas

um you know those early experiences that

Define you and the evidence it creates

could be all of them could be eradicated

with like some form of therapy or

treatment

The more I've done this podcast and sat

with exceptional people who have you

know have exceptional stories and some

in many cases have exceptional traumas

I've gone the other way and realized

that even if they've had all the therapy

they've gone and done Ayahuasca they've

had whatever they've had it's still the

some traumas some of the the deeper

earlier traumas never seem to disappear

and so my stance has changed and in

recent podcasts I've been saying that

there are instances where some things

just it seems like people just can't

overcome certain things is there a age

um

group where Goblins the traumas that we

can't seem to overcome the evidence or

whatever it is the the damage to the

circuitry is there a does it tend to

happen earlier yeah the younger we are

when we're developing the brain the

brain keeps developing up to the age of

around 30. so it's young to me at my age

as anyone under 30. okay so I'm 30 now

right you're you're just I'm still

you're just about done okay right so

some people finish we know that mature

is the final sort of like bits to the

brim mature which is actually the

rationality uh of the brain it matures

around 25 to 30 but there are quite a

lot of particularly more men who keep

going to around 32 but by then you're

out to the oven so wherever you've got

you finished I agree with what you're

saying is then you accept this is the

where my system is so let me manage my

system instead of trying to make my

system do something it can't do so I

hope I'm not coming across saying let's

roll over I'm not saying that but the

reason that I did it was it's they're

also the therapist it's really hard for

the doctor the nurse the psychologist

it's really hard to see them struggling

to try and change something or help

someone and it's not working and that

can damage them to think what's wrong

with me I've seen it yeah oh right there

you go and that's a therapist and I've

seen her crying yeah because she

couldn't change something right and

that's why I brought this out and said

to the therapist look stop you know

let's you review what you're doing uh

there are their own professionals but as

someone who tries to teach a therapists

and and people are working this field to

say neuroscientifically there are

damages to the Circuit so rather than

say we're going to change it you've

tried and you've probably done a great

job because again most people are really

good more therapists I've worked

alongside have been excellent you know

whatever the profession is is but don't

beat yourself up if you're struggling

with someone it may be you are hitting

the nail on the head but exactly what

you've just said we're not going to move

this person so stop worrying about it

and say let's try managing it first

whatever's raising its head and then if

we manage it then we might still try

processing but now we're not defeated I

have to say that that's that's great

advice for therapists but it's also just

great advice for someone in a family

unit or in a relationship who has a

partner or a loved one who is struggling

with something where the circuitry might

be irreparably damaged and they're

destroying the relationship with that

person because they're trying to change

them exactly and the devil is in the

detail again because there are other

elements to this because in other factor

is time we know that the brain will try

and repair itself even if emotional

scars it will try and do that so there

can sometimes just be time so we're not

liking growth reactions it you have to

allow the Britain time and the Brain

will process things in its own time and

that's a piece of string generally in a

serious loss or change of job or

relationship gone or you've lost someone

because they've passed on it usually we

say around three months is intense then

the 12 months is still bad but some

people it can be 10 years and and there

is no normal grief there's just normal

grief for you

and then if it gets stuck then again

this way the clinicians will come in if

you have pathological grief and this can

be due to anything it's often a belief

system again in the computer that's

stopping you being able to process

something

and on that point of low self-esteem

seems to be incredibly common yeah um

confidence issues low self-esteem people

believing like they are not enough I

remember I sat with a therapist called

Marissa pipia

do you know what Steve have I don't

think I've had a patient come to me that

believed they were enough whether

they're an Olympic star or they're a

business person at the heart of them

there was some kind of sort of deeper

self-esteem issue how does one go about

working with someone who's got you know

clearly

serious self-esteem issues confidence

issues I'm gonna be uh

almost paradoxical here and um

controversially almost so you know if

you look at the newer science of our

brain and what it's trying to do uh the

chimp system

is naturally and healthily low

self-esteemed that is the natural chimp

system and we see this not just in our

system and humans in chimpanzees so the

fear that they're not up to it is

inbuilt so if you have a fear that

you're not as good as other people and

you've got low self-esteem and then you

start searching for evidence and you'll

find it you'll find it because if you

compare yourself to anyone who's

excelling you've found it that is the

chimp system trying to help you it

sounds paradoxical what it's saying is

don't put yourself in a vulnerable place

where you beat your chest and say look

I'm strong because you could get

attacked it's better to keep your head

down wear a 10 helmet and hope it goes

away so that's how the chimp system

works nice if someone comes in with low

self-esteem the first step to me is

accept this is absolutely healthy and

natural but it's unhelpful

so it's it's natural and healthy so

celebrate you've got this amazingly

healthy machine but what it's giving you

is unhealthy

so what you say is well why would it

give me this and the answer is so that

you don't get shot down you don't put

your head up but that doesn't mean you

can't start saying right well what can I

do to gain self-esteem where it's

reasonable self-esteem

and then you start saying for example

don't compare yourself to others it's

not a healthy thing to do even wild

chimpanzees do this they have a

hierarchy in there they will compare and

they'll jostle for position so we're

built to do similar we jostled for

position and sport is one where we see

it blatant all right and we enjoy that

provided we retain a sport and not start

going self-esteem on it so we muddle the

two up and again instead the typical

everyday person social media yeah oh

that's a disaster area because again

what our chimps do is they want to be

loved by everybody oh gosh and and the

evidence is quite strong that if I am

your friend and I like you okay and then

you've got another friend who is not

keen on you at times and you'll actually

give more attention to the person who's

not keen on using me

and and that's what we do because our

chimp is best to say I've got beloved by

everyone so you just say well Steve

likes I'm not going to bother with him

but if it's Brian or whatever I'll I'll

try and Curry favor and you try and

please these people yeah and if you look

it's really unhealthy to do that and

it's not rational instead of saying let

me create a world uh because I'm not

going to work with my chimpses no I'm a

human which says I value my friends who

I want to invest in who do respect and

love me they're the people I'm getting

my time to and people who find me a bit

you know maybe not so good or don't like

me well that's up to them you know

they're not in my world they're outside

my world so if we look at that that's

how the human system works it builds its

own inner world and says this is how I'm

going to survive the world but social

media can be a disaster because then we

look to say well who doesn't like me and

what comments and we give them undue

attention

and that's a natural healthy thing for

your chimp to do when it's trying to get

everyone inside but it's a ridiculous

thing to do and it's unhealthy is that

because the chimp cares about status

yeah because in a troop a natural and

again not everything that chimpanzees in

the Wilder refer to us but some things

do overlap and we've found that a

chimpanzee will always try and Curry

favor with the powerful chimps because

it doesn't want excluding excluded chimp

is in trouble I mean it is going to die

because it's unlikely another troop will

take it

and it's a likely a leopard will get it

it's got to sleep sometime so but if you

think of us as humans we tend to see

this so he's particularly seeing

teenagers they try and make everybody

their Troop

so anyone who's rejecting is fearful and

to the chimp it's life and death so to

our inner system which is chimp driven

in the same way emotionally if we get

rejected it potentially we could be

kicked out and we know that if you look

at the Neuroscience of the brain

particularly in teenagers it's extremely

sensitive to peer pressure it's built at

that point to start forming peer groups

so if somebody says I don't like your

hairstyle I don't like your socks or

even worse that are like you then that

can be extremely damaging to the

circuits that can create damage so we

have to try and get to young children

and say right we need to teach them you

don't have to please everybody you

please people on your terms with your

morals and your values but you

self-assess you decide whether you're

good enough you decide what's important

to you but if we don't teach them at

young stage as a teenager we go outside

that and then social media becomes

extremely extremely dangerous you see

that in schools I went undercover in a

school and it was funny I was on the

playground and I was looking out and I

could I saw all of the boys had the same

haircut this kind of weird mullet thing

and all of them had the Under Armor

backpack yeah it was I couldn't believe

it I was like they are they they're

identical this group of 20 lads who are

all together perfect mullets and this

this under armor backpack I think at the

time when Anthony Joshua who was the the

great boxer

um was was an Under Armor Ambassador I

think the brand was becoming really cool

so

um and that made me think about how we

seek to conform so much at that age and

how much I did I was wearing the skinny

jeans if that was in the Fred Perry top

then I was listening to rap music and

then but I think that's that's really

important to do isn't it because again

if we got a child who under the age of

10 wandered away from parents and didn't

really care that's very disconcerting

will be able to build the community

right the child should be dependent on

the pair current right you know if

you've got a teenagers outside the peer

group we start getting concerned it

doesn't mean there's something

desperately wrong some people are more

isolate than others it's on a spectrum

but it is worrying so you like to see

teenagers together but in order to be

accepted you do have common ground

so we we all our chimps always look for

common ground or common experiences so

if I wear orange socks and now I'm the

gang leader then you wear orange socks

and now we're all on our own socks and

if I can decide they're out then

everyone starts wearing them that is

pretty healthy as a teenager because

they're peer group bonding we hope they

go through that stage into what we call

individualization so around 17

neuroscientific the brain does change

almost to the day for most people so by

1890 and we're starting to individualize

and that means we decide whether I want

to really wear orange socks we get

individual identities however again a

lot of research obviously it's

contradictory at times but most of it

shows that around that age we have the

leaders come out which is about one in

four people genetically are going to

individualize and decide I'm just going

to set my own agendas and I like what

music I like do what I like but about

three and four are semi-dependent

throughout their lives so they'll always

look to some strong figure to bond with

them and that tends to be a bit insecure

the people that have this low

self-esteem we talked about a second ago

are they more likely to become what we

call people Pleasers

yes because again they're trying to

Curry further so that's one way of

coping with low self-esteem so ever

again everyone's different so some

people might close themselves down and

they'll go into their own little world

and just not engage and they don't go

and join a new club or form a new hobby

or make new friends because they just

haven't got that confidence so they deal

the coping strategy is to just close

down and my my answer is if as long as

you're happy with that I'm not going to

dispute it but if you're not and you

want to get out let's get you out there

but everyone has different coping

strategies the next one you've mentioned

commonly is to try and please people

never say no always say yes

um make sure it doesn't matter how much

it puts you out never speak up don't be

assertive

is critical not to be assertive so this

is their chimp system saying if you do

all this people will like you more sadly

the reality is they don't people like

assertive confident people they don't

like people who suck up to them tends to

be then there's a real danger now I'm

going into forensics somebody's in that

position where they're desperate time to

plays is really vulnerable to abuse

so they're going to get someone who

finds them and then they'll use this

against them and then it really is

dangerous so so when you look at that my

gut feel is as well as logic would be to

get them out of that and say look be

very careful if you're gonna lean on

someone don't lean on them by trying to

please them lean on them as a friend

who's there to look after you that's

building you up not controlling you is

that what you tend to find in abusive

relationships yeah there's usually very

little self-esteem I mean years ago uh

when I did a lot of work in general

adult psychiatry in hospital medicine I

would see quite a lot not just women but

mainly women who would be have such low

self-esteem that they would subject

themselves to someone who was really

abusing them and there was a book out at

the time which I used to recommend I

just think Saxon written by a woman and

it was to entitle women who loved too

much I read through this book and I

thought she'd written it in my opinion

it was excellent so I used to hand them

that and say I think this is better than

me as a man trying to help you to get

self-esteem I can do this but I think if

you understand where she's coming from

and she said exactly what you're saying

she's saying you know the reason you're

clinging to these guys is because you

have so such low self-esteem you're

actually saying to them give me my

self-esteem and they're abusing you

so you've got to build your self-esteem

that's so you're right but there are

lots of ways people do some of them are

not so blatant so some people don't

recognize they've got low self-esteem

until you point out for example they

just don't know how to be assertive and

if you think about it if you've got

reasonable self-esteem then you would

say have the right to speak my mind and

also to say to people please don't do

that it offends mirror to upsets me and

this is what I'd like you to do which is

what assertiveness is

so again sometimes it's subtle that you

think oh wow low self-esteem presents

with different faces and again that's my

job to to help people to tease out and

think ah this is low self-esteem or it

isn't I want to figure out how to build

self-esteem but can self low self-esteem

also manifest as the

very apparently successful guy or girl

who has got a mansion and a Lamborghini

and his head to toe in designer Brands

because I know those people as well I

think at one point I was one of those

people if I'm being full disclosure but

um is that a form of low self-esteem

again it's what I put under was a public

coping strategy and what you're trying

to say is look if I keep elevating

myself then I'll suddenly feel good

because people see me as being this

wealthy person or this successful person

and it's interesting even within sport

one of the questions asked is why are

you doing this because it's great to do

sport I'm not a great sport

um but why are you doing it and and

often the answers which do lead to

success but can have consequence uh I

need to prove to myself that I can do

something and that's probably I would

have said not an ideal reason to do it

I'm not saying it doesn't work but I

think the long-term consequence is you

won't stop at the end of spot you'll

keep doing that

that's my the risk or someone who says I

need to demonstrate to other people how

good I am again these can be very

successful beliefs while you're in sport

but coming out of it it can lead to

Danger

so again it's not for me to say change

it's me to question it and say is there

an alternative way to succeeding Sport

and I've met plenty of people who say

it's only sport but I love it commit to

process and get on with it and succeed

fantastic and really great players

so again it's not for me to say it's for

me to try and tease it out to people I

think sometimes I think even with myself

I've wondered and worried that if the

the insecurities I had from being a

child you know with the only black

family in the neighborhood we were the

poor family with the smashed up house

um though that insecurity I think has

been a driving force for me I think it

was much the reason that I cared so much

about getting money and status and

material material success and then I

think there was a point I think I read

about this in my book where I pondered

that if I lose that do I lose my

ambition in my drive

well that's a good point it's

interesting that um

I'm sorry you experienced that oh no

because I don't sound great and again it

was a driving force that eventually LED

you to being successful in some sense

and so it's not all together negative

but there's a really key Point here it's

like when people have a driving force in

sport

I think it's great to have a driving

force where it is provided you can stop

in your tracks and look at perspective

and say you know what without this I'm

still a decent person and have good

self-esteem within yourself so I think

I'm not against these driving force as

long as you can contain them and they

don't continue yeah there's a difference

so I think if you said right I want to

try and prove that I commit this because

I'm from a poor family I'm black I'm the

only one in the neighborhood I'm going

to show you we can succeed here as

people in this position and that's true

of a lot of minor minority groups

I don't think it's ideal

I'd much rather if I'd met you then say

can you see yourself as being you yeah

and who cares what the rest of the world

thinks let's make you and your values

and that could have driven you but if

you say well what if I suddenly see

myself as being me and I don't see this

as me being poor and I need to prove

myself will not not lose my Force the

answer is not really your force is

driven by emotion at that point so

that's your trip driving you all right

which I'm not saying is right or wrong

I'm just saying that's what it's doing

but is there a way the human can drive

you and the answer is yes by your values

and saying I'd like to do things that I

think are really valuable to me and it

could be I want to earn money and I want

to help other people and I want a good

life there's nothing wrong with that I

don't think there's anything wrong but

that's for you to decide but then you

can have a driving force and you won't

lose it in sport I deal with people who

I try and get them to put sport in

perspective so my phrase is always is

tiddlywinks you know life is Tiddly

wings but let's do it with a passion

but at any point if we're not doing well

and we make a a bad move let's be able

to laugh and say it's totally Winks are

you doing that to detach it from their

self-esteem it doesn't yeah it doesn't

have to be with self-esteem that's

completely different to me you've chosen

to put your self-esteem on what you can

achieve which is what the chimp does or

who it is or how people perceive it or

what it's got what values valuables it's

got you know money that's and we're

dealing with it but it's not a very

sound one because what happens is you

still keep going

Because deep down what I've experienced

I don't know whether you'd resonate if I

met you at Heart to Heart behind locked

doors at that point you say I'm not

happy because I'm aware of what I'm

doing and I know it's superficial

and that's what I've experienced I've

worked with with the extremes of each

Spectrum with people who are struggling

with finances and people who are

extraordinarily wealthy but the bottom

line is at the end of the day when

you're back in your own house in your

own room you're living with yourself

and that's why I say do you want to look

at that because if you can live with

yourself comfortably and be at peace of

mind then nothing's going to get to you

the world will be a much better place

so when I think back to that time when I

feel like I was most driven by that

Pursuit which was

full

um before I had attained the things that

I was aiming to attain because I think

sometimes when you attain those things

they they act as pretty profound

evidence that you were you were aiming

for the wrong thing at some time but if

I look through the thing I think would

would make me unhappy was that all the

things I sacrificed because of my

Pursuit for like materials for money or

material success so not having

relationships or friendships or social

connection

sacrificing all of those things created

like an emptiness yeah you know just

working seven days a week in an office

not and then thinking that you know this

was the a noble cause because it would

make me Rich

it was actually the things that I well I

think it was the things that I

sacrificed that led me to feeling a

little bit empty inside I wouldn't

necessarily say I was unhappy but I was

definitely it was unsustainable for sure

I was definitely heading to a bad place

like I could see that coming I'd seen a

couple of my friends actually who were

doing the same thing at the time end up

in bad places on medication having panic

attacks

um drinking a lot of alcohol too much

alcohol

so I could see myself heading to a bad

place but um but I think again I don't

think we should see this black and white

things should agree again I'm not it

makes clear I'm not against people

earning money and I've been great

possessions and holidays and because

that will obviously give them some

pleasure and happiness I'm not because

I'm just saying alongside that let's

look at the other aspects which you're

neglecting yeah so do both

just get a perspective that that's going

to help me on my chimp to feel happy but

actually what's going to make me feel

good now some people will say I'm happy

I've got my money and I've got my car

and it's not for me to say oh wow what

about your values that's I'm not who am

I to do that what I'm saying is my

experience has been with a lot of people

I work with you're resonating with what

I find that behind locked dolls they're

saying there's an emptiness there's

something like saying I'm sacrificing

things that mean a lot to me and I want

these great friends and I want to have a

meaning in my life I want purpose I want

my values defining I want to be able to

live with my values and so I said to

people you just get a balance just tell

me what do you need what do you want and

let's get both of these things in

position you come to learn like I think

I thought that I didn't need those

things because I thought I was some

anomaly yeah I didn't think I needed the

like fundamentals of human needs so I

didn't think I needed connection I

thought all of these things but you

could take it or leave it but the longer

you run that experiment the this sooner

you'll find out that you two are human

but again if you try and give some

context to this when you're sort of 19

to 25 roughly you're generally searching

for a partner and your brain is telling

you look at your best yeah you know

otherwise you're not going to get

anybody so therefore you're wanting this

admiration you're wanting this status

and and that's because that's nature

driving you say if you're the best

that's who they'll pick they're not

going to pick someone who's not the best

right so we're driven and then we do

this comparison with other people uh

which can drive us on or it can cause

incredible depressive feelings and then

low self-esteem so again I think if we

can help people to understand that's

normal and healthy but it's unhealthy if

you do an address the rest so in saying

that we're not all going to look like

Tarzan on this world you know that's

what you're aiming to do then you're

going to fail because you'll obviously a

bigger thousand or a better Miss World

it doesn't matter and I think that can

be a faulty stance in life but it at

that age group you're meant to be doing

that whereas once you start going beyond

that either you've got a partner or you

start to realize it's a bit superficial

and so what you're doing is maturing

into the 30s not everyone most people

mature to thinking this is empty this is

not a good place to be and it's not

going to last and also you remember your

aging

so you know you look in the mirror and

suddenly think wow that wasn't what I

used to see and then if you're not wise

you start trying to be something you're

not so you're trying to get yourself 10

years younger and that can become an

embarrassment so again but it's up to

people what they want to do but I'm

saying the natural development of the

brain in the 30s is to mature you as

I've said it finishes now it really

matures and then in your 40s you do see

life differently so as you develop your

brain matures and it will see things

differently I always joke with people

and say you know when you're getting

middle-aged because you buy a bird table

and and you can't believe many people

resonate or you've got the garden center

on a Sunday but that doesn't mean you

can't do that at 19 and it doesn't mean

you have to do it at 40. I'm just saying

we recognize that what it's symbolizing

is I'm starting to look at more

Aesthetics in my life now and not

chasing after a mega career I'm not

chasing after wealth I'm saying look

there's a point where you've got enough

and there are other things is quality of

life now and for a lot of people they

start tuning into things like nature so

it's not that surprising they've got the

garden center you know I'm not saying

that negatively at all right I've got my

bird tail yeah we just put my

girlfriend's dad a bird there you go box

with a camera in it there you go but the

point is at this age more people are

more likely to appreciate that than when

you're 18. of course yeah but we're not

saying that you know I'm not trying to

put people in boxes I'm trying to say

let's look at how the brain develops but

learn what works for you but it's good

to know that your brain is maturing all

the time and you will move you will move