one of the terrible things about

wokeness is that we're at risk of

destroying the very thing that we now

enjoy freedom because other countries

see that as weakness and they capitalize

on it how do you prove that threat is

real because this has already happened

and we'll get into this in more detail

Conant kiss is the sharp wited saturnist

podcast host and social commentator

unafraid to discuss some of the most

controversial topics and challenging

questions that Society is struggling

with ideology is a very bad thing

because the moment you buy into a

prepackaged set of ideas about what

you're supposed to believe you can very

quickly find yourself not interested in

the truth for example the ideology of

wokeness creates a very simplistic and

frankly ridiculous way of looking at

people not as individuals but as groups

with a hierarchy of Oppression and

promotion of victimhood which is what

makes them so dangerous because when you

teach people to be victims you actually

cause them to suffer in real life we're

weakening ourselves and now we censor

everything political labeling is a

weapon people use against their

opponents and political correctness is

preventing you from expressing a descent

opinion you can't say that that's hate

speech but as we spend more time arguing

about trivial issues instead of real

stuff that matters the dominant

civilization becomes more divided

especially from the inside and other

countries get to make a play for that

dominant position and it will mean that

the values of the west human rights

equality of treat and freedom of speech

those values will not be considered

values at all they don't want to hold

hands and sink Bay and I'm convinced

that the geopolitics we have seen in the

last many years would not be happening

if we were not signaling weakness in the

division is there a way to stop the

division here's what you

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Constantine who are you and what do you

do and I have to add to that why did you

do

it my history is I was born in the late

Soviet Union and I grew up in that

Society watched the collapse as a young

man young boy actually um and then saw

the craziness of the emergence of modern

Russia which was an experience unlike

any other really it was pretty insane

what happened um and then there was a

very very brief window in my family's

time when we went from being very poor

when I was born to being very rich to

being very poor in the space of like 10

years and in the 5year period when my

family did have money they sent me to

boarding school in the UK and that's how

I I ended up here and then fast forward

a bunch of years um I started a podcast

with another

comedian called Francis Foster called

trigonometry we're about to hit a

million subscribers today which is

pretty exciting yeah and the reason I do

what I do is um I have a different

perspective to most people uh most

people who were born here grew up here

who take what we have here as a given

they take it for granted in my opinion

many people I've seen that the world is

not like this everywhere I've seen also

that societies don't necessarily last

forever uh cultures don't necessarily

last forever civilizations don't

necessarily last forever so the reason I

do what I do is I'm trying to remind

people in the west how privileged and

truly lucky we are to live in the

society and we've talked you know in the

last 10 years in particular so much

about different forms of privilege you

know male privilege White Privilege the

one form of privilege that we don't ever

talk about for some reason is Western

privilege and actually I believe that's

the one that we really should be talking

about and should be talking about from a

position of gratitude uh because we are

incredibly lucky to live uh in the west

uh and because we don't know that I

believe we're at risk of destroying the

very things that we now

enjoy an immigrants love letter to the

West is the title of your book it's I

love this title um for a variety of

reasons the word love is really

intentional why did you include the word

love

because how I feel you know um when

you've come to a place from outside it's

easier to see what makes it special uh

and so I'm incredibly grateful for the

opportunities that people like me enjoy

but actually all of us enjoy the freedom

to make of your life what you will the

freedom to speak your mind at least

until recently the freedom to pursue

things the freedom you know one of the

bedrocks of our societies is capitalism

now capitalism is based on the idea of

private property private property

doesn't really exist in most of the rest

of the world if you are a billionaire

even in Russia um you might be a

billionaire today but if you cross vad

Putin or whoever else might be in charge

you will go to prison and have all your

assets taken away from you and that's

what happened to Mel horovsky Jack ma in

China he made some comments about like

banking regulations it wasn't even

particularly controversial stuff and

then he disappears for a year and comes

back with you know completely different

set of opinions all of a sudden and

loses most of his money so we have the

luxury in in the west to do what we want

far more than any human beings have ever

had in the history of humanity and I

love that I love that freedom and I love

the the opportunities that I've had to

build my own life build my family's life

to give my son now opportunities that he

never would have enjoyed in a billion

years in another country so what is the

threat because you love the UK it's all

going great you know um what is the

threat that you see on the horizon and

how do you prove that threat is real if

you look at history and I'm no historian

but if you read interesting people about

history most civilizations are not

destroyed from the outside they're

destroyed through suicide uh through

cultural suicide and I think one of the

big threats I've been raising the alarm

on for a long time is what people talk

about as wo culture or Progressive you

know rampant progressivism whatever you

want to call it but at the heart of it

is the idea that we are bad our society

is bad it's based our history is bad

it's based on you know slavery and

colonialism and exploitation and

imperialism and all of this stuff and

how do you prove that well there's

several ways to think about it the first

one is if you thought your Society was

bad why would you defend it why would

you teach its values to your children

why would you want it to persevere and

continue to exist if you look

geopolitically in the last many years as

I've been predicting now for a long time

look at what happened in Ukraine look at

uh what happened in Afghanistan with the

withdrawal of American forces look at

what China is now doing in terms of how

muscular it's becoming about Taiwan as

the West loses confidence as the West

becomes more divided as the West becomes

more distracted as we spend more time

you know it's a tried thing to say but

as we spend more time arguing about what

a woman is instead of real stuff that

matters other people around the world

see that as weakness and they capitalize

on it and I'm convinced that the things

we have seen in terms of geopolitics in

the last many years would not be

happening happen if we were not

signaling weakness and division you

politically Affiliated at all do do you

consider yourself to be on the left or

the right or neither or well here's how

I think about it right uh my interest is

in our society

thriving our culture thriving our

culture doing better and uh I don't

think the right or the left is always

right it's contextual right there are

times when you want higher taxes and

more government spending there are times

when you want lower taxes and less

government spending there are times when

you need more immigration you know after

World War II Britain Australia Canada

many countries wanted more immigrants to

come because they needed to rebuild

their society uh there are times when

you need less immigration and so I think

it's about where you are in the moment

as opposed to these rigid ideological

positions like you know I am Pro

immigration I'm anti-immigration I think

both of those are pretty misguided

positions what you want is to be in the

right place at the right time so I don't

know if you've noticed this but it seems

to me like political labeling is now

mostly a weapon that people use against

their opponents right like if I don't

agree with you it's convenient for me to

label you as a member of the opposite

tribe so if I'm on the right well you're

a communist if I'm on the left well

you're far right and and this is how we

have conversation now um I have some

positions that are currently considered

rightwing I have some positions that are

currently considered leftwing and you

know I just one of the things I really

learned from my history and my family's

history and I talk about this in the

book as you know is that ideology is a

very bad thing always and so the moment

you buy into a prepackaged set of ideas

about what you're supposed to believe

you very quickly find yourself having to

believe things that you don't actually

agree with so that you get to stay in

the tribe mhm I don't care about the

tribe I care about the truth there's a

quote you um you referenced which uh I

actually sent to my friends earlier on

and I was talking to them um it is I

have no interest whatsoever in the false

dichotomy of right versus left if there

is one thing my Soviet childhood taught

me it's that subscribing to someone

else's ideology will always inevit

inevitably mean having to suspend your

own judgment about right and wrong to

appease your tribe which is on chapter

one of your book on page 21 and it

really

um you know as a podcaster when you

really want you're genuinely curious and

you want to interview lots of people

from lots of backgrounds the the great

thing about doing this job is I have to

teach myself to always look at the other

side so if you represent one side my job

in many respects is to try and

understand the other side so we can talk

about the other side as well to like

represent the other side and um that's

been really useful for me because it's

stopped me falling into the Trap of like

conforming with a tribe and also as you

say like when you talk about the right

and left thing being a label and a

weapon that people will use it's the

same when a journalist wants to write

about me what they'll do is they'll find

the most right-wing person that's ever

been on my podcast and they'll say he

interviews people like yes insert name

insert name yeah as if to say I am those

two people yes or in our case with

trigonometry what happens is we are

people who started our show because we

were pushing back against the woke

Progressive Dogma in our comedy industry

at the time and so a lot of our early

guests were exploring ing perspectives

that were not ours we were two remain

voters and when the remain when the

brexit vote happened we were really

confused because we were part of that

kind of elitist Metropolitan you know I

don't know anyone who voted brexit kind

of thing but my perspective was I found

it odd that people were saying well you

know the reason people voted for brexit

is because half the country is racist

and I was like I mean come on that

that's just factually incorrect we both

know that uh that's not to say the big

people don't exist and that doesn't mean

that some brex of Voters weren't racist

but to explain a complex phenomenon like

that by a simplistic explanation of that

just wasn't accurate so we had a lot of

people who were Pro brexit on the show

to understand where they're coming from

well one of the things that happens is

if you talk to a lot of people from one

side then the people from the other side

say what you just said well he's talk to

this this and this I won't go on his

show right and then they use that

against you to say well you only talk to

these people and like I'm like we've

we've invited your Owen Joneses and your

Ash sakas and all the others and Ash

should come on soon and and we've had

lots of people from different

perspectives but if I'm writing an

article about you or if I want to tweet

something about you it's very easy to

use what is wokeism as far as you see it

because the word kind of sounds like a

compliment it was initially it was a

self- compliment initially so wokeness

came along really in around 2014 and

there if you are interested we can talk

about why it does around that time

because it's a very interesting thing

that I actually think speaks to the

moment we're in more broadly um but it

was initially used by uh people

particularly kind of black lives matter

and racial activists in America about

themselves and what they were saying is

we are awakened to certain realizations

realizations like what they call

intersectionality which is the idea that

you know different racial and sexual and

other groups and Society are treated

differently um and we're now awake to

this that's what wokeness meant and now

we are aware these systemic forces that

are disadvantaging certain groups and

now we're going to pursue activism

that's designed to address you know

white privilege male privilege and all

of this other stuff but very quickly

what happened is a lot of people looked

at some of the ways these people were

behaving and other people around them

were behaving and started making fun of

it which is what often happens and so

now the word work is kind of an insult

that's being used to say these people

are somewhat detached from reality and

they're obsessed about trivial issues um

that don't actually have much bearing on

reality they're not interested in facts

they're interested in narratives and so

on um but if you're asking me what woke

culture really is it's a combination of

things first and foremost it's the

promotion and celebration of

victimhood first and foremost then you

take that victimhood and you say

different groups are differently

victimized some groups are victimized so

black people ethnic minorities women U

and by the way of course there's a

kernel truth to all these things right

uh certain groups

are disadvantaged in society or perhaps

a better way of saying is generally

speaking have worse outcomes than others

and that you know we can explore why

that is in in more detail um but what we

then do is we build a a hierarchy of

Oppression some groups are more

oppressed than others which makes them

better morally Superior to others and

there are some other groups that are

suspect because they're doing better so

this ideology kind of says the way to

work out who is oppressed and who is the

oppressor because if you have the

oppressed you have to have someone who's

oppressing them we can't say you know

different groups do different in society

for all sorts of different reasons if

someone is not doing as well as someone

else that's because they've been

oppressed right uh and then you work out

this hierarchy you know white people are

the evil at the top uh you throw in some

other successful minorities you know for

example uh in the UK and in

America uh Asians from the Far East

Chinese Koreans Japanese they do very

well right so they are now seen as part

of the kind of more the oppressor groups

that's why in American colleges for

example they're discriminated against in

admissions because they do better than

Hispanics and and blacks right so uh

it's essentially a way of creating a

very very simplistic and frankly

ridiculous way of looking at people not

as individuals you know Steven

Constantin but as groups black white

russian Jewish whatever way you want to

look at it and it's this generalized

thing and one of the reasons it's so

destructive is it's asking all the wrong

questions it's it's asking the question

of why do why why are people struggling

right but it doesn't ask it from the

right perspective the real you know

poverty is the norm the real question is

what creates Prosperity what creates

success uccess what creates uh

successful outcomes for different groups

and if you just focus on you know what

happened to a certain group 200 years

ago you're really not going to get to

the answer of how to uplift people in in

the present moment so it's the elevation

of victimhood it's Obsession about

racial and sexual and gender Dynamics um

and it's the promotion of a kind of

anti-western anti- white anti-male

ideology uh that I believe is very very

dangerous to actually the very great

societies that we've created which are

based on the idea that you know I have

some issues with multiculturalism but a

multiracial society I think is a very

healthy thing provided we are not

encouraged to see each other as members

of separate and divided tribes but that

is exactly what this ideology does what

is the harm of victimhood and how does

how is that like really showing up in

people's everyday lives from an

individual standpoint and so I really

want to know like the how victimhood is

becoming self harm so if I choose to

adopt a victimhood mindset how does that

hurt me Steven well oh I mean there's a

hundred different ways but one of the

the thing things we know from psychology

is what they call perception is

projection I don't know if you're

familiar with this idea okay you've had

Jordan Peterson on the show right so one

of the things he talks about is you

cannot see unless you have a hierarchy

of value in your mind right there is an

almost unlimited number of things I

could be looking at in this room there's

a bunch of books behind you there's

cameras in the room your producers over

there there's a wall there's lights

there's all kinds of things but I'm

looking at you why because in this

moment you're the most important thing

that's happening to me in this room

right our

conversation however if I walk into this

room and I am triggered by

books right I wouldn't be able to focus

on you I would be be a only be able to

focus on what's behind you right now

let's say you walk around thinking that

because of your racial background

everyone's out to get you well what are

you going to see out in the world you're

going to see people look at you funny

now people look at you funny for all

sorts of different reasons people look

at me funny people look at women funny

people look at men funny for all sorts

of different reasons you might walk past

the police officer and you might think

well I know that my racial background

makes me a victim of police brutality

therefore I'm going to be on edge what

does that mean well if a police officer

says something to me to you you might

interpret it differently than you might

have done as if you were just a normal

guy right and on and on it goes so you

bring your perceptual filters into every

situation and therefore the outcomes

that you experience are predetermined to

a very significant part not by the other

people but by your own expectations and

so when you teach people to be victims

you make them victims you actually cause

them to suffer in real life and the

people who need to be resilient and

strong and to be taught that you may be

mistreated sometimes by different people

but you have the capacity to overcome

that you have the capacity to make that

you can be whoever you want you live in

a free Society where no one can stop you

the people who need that message the

most are the people who are actually

victims the people who actually suffer

discrimination the people who actually

come from difficult backgrounds they

need that message more than anyone it

reminded me of that video I saw you do

or feat in where you talk about the scar

experiment which

um made it very real for anyone that

hasn't seen that video what was that

experiment basically what they did is

they took a bunch of people I think it

was mostly women some men and they said

to them what we're doing today so they

set the frame what we're doing today is

we are doing an experiment to find out

how people with uh facial disfigurements

are treated in society and they put

scarring on their face in front of a mow

so they could see that they had some

really serious facial disfigurements and

as they were leaving the

room they said you know what we just

need to touch touch that scar up a

little bit more and they removed the

scarring so these people went into what

was set up as a job interview thinking

they had scars on their face but the

scarring had been removed without their

knowledge and when they walked into

those interviews when they came out they

were asked a bunch of questions and what

people found was they had massively

increased levels of

discrimination for their facial

disfigurements they reported specific

comments that the interviews had made

about their face even though they had no

scaring at all they brought their

expectation in with them and they came

out with the result that they were

looking for so they believed they were

discriminated against yeah so I I read

about something called stereotype threat

um which talks about how if you remind a

group of people whether that's black

people or women or whoever it might be

about a stereotype um or factor that

relates to a stereotype before they do a

test then they perform worse than the

test and and I guess I don't know if

this is a Counterpoint to this but so if

I'm a black person and there's a

stereotype that black people aren't good

at maths just by asking someone on a

test to fill in their ethnicity before

they do the math test drops their scores

on the math test right which I I believe

is the Crux of the experiment and this

this kind of proves

that I guess it's a few things I guess

it's someone believing that they are as

a disadvantage causes a disadvantage in

performance but it also highlights if

that's like an innate thing it also

points to the power of these these

stereotypes totally but it's not the

power of the stereotypes it's the power

of the brainwashing right because what

what that what when someone says to you

there's The Stereotype it's not just the

stereotype alone it's also the fact that

they've told you that reinforces it for

you right because you might be aware of

the stereotype of a peripheral level but

you're like no I'm good at mass and

that's it but it's when other people

come in and tell you stuff that's when

that social proof is also reinforcing it

sometimes they tell you it in a

well-meaning way yeah yeah but that

doesn't change it right but you're not

saying we shouldn't tell people at all

well I I don't know that the stereotype

that black people aren't good at math is

true I I think what we should tell

people is you can be whatever the hell

you want uh and you might be terrible at

math that's okay you might be good at

some other things but the thing you

should really do is do your best and

find out the result you get I asked this

question I flashback when I was 18 years

old and I was thinking of starting my

first business and I discovered that

there's this special like loan or Grant

you could get if you were black and as I

sat there I remember being sat there on

Facebook typing out this post which I

never posted where I basically was like

this seeing that this exists has made me

feel like I'm at a disadvantage the

existence of this thing but it's

well-meaning like they wanted to give

grants to people that were black but

part of me if you read between the lines

of what that says it says because you

are black you have a disadvantage right

and then when I sort of overlap that

with what I know about stereotype

threats I'm like did the existence of

that grant program make me more hopeful

and self-elaboration

they are incredibly well-meaning they're

incredibly well- meaning which is what

makes them so dangerous because um I

always forget this quote but there's a

there's a wonderful quote about this

which is that a tyranny exercised for

your own good is much worse than a

tyranny that's exercised out of pure

evil because at least the evil person

knows they're being evil but when

someone is trying to help you by being

tyrannical towards you I mean this is a

different context but the point is the

same when someone is doing something to

you because they think they're try

they're helping they are not held back

by their conscience at all mhm and so

they will do whatever the hell they

think is the right thing in order to

help you what might be a good way of

helping people who who come from

backgrounds where there is less

entrepreneurial success and maybe that

is the case I don't know what the

statistics are is you know creating a

school of black business Excellence

right like here's here's 10 guys like

you who come in and talk about how you

were great and here's some tips and

here's what you do and here's what I did

inspiration right now look I don't buy

personally into this idea that like

there's this Narrative of you can't be

what you can't see I think that's one of

the most pernicious and dangerous ideas

that we've seen in recent years um but

to the extent that there are people who

who need someone who looks like them

maybe that's that's the way that you do

it um there is a great writer American

writer called Thomas soul I don't know

if you're familiar with his work not

brother if you read his stuff you will

you will be hooked one of the things he

talks about uh is the fact that um over

the last 30 40 years we have replaced

things that work with things that sound

good and so much of what we now do in

our society is things that sound good

like that program but don't actually

help anyone they don't actually work

very well um and when we talked about

why wokeness really takes off in 2014

one of the reasons I believe and there's

a lot of evidence for this and you can

look this up and even maybe flash up

some graphs about this when social media

comes

along that's when this stuff really

takes off because social media is

completely detached from The Real World

and social media because of that

promotes things that sound good that

make us feel good about how Progressive

we are virtuous virtuous but don't

actually achieve anything because in the

isolated context of Twitter or Facebook

or whatever you don't have the feedback

mechanism of Smashing your head on the

floor if you walk the wrong way or

whatever whatever it is right um so we

do a lot of things in our society now uh

that practically don't get the results

that we'd like them to get but they make

us feel incredibly good about how

Progressive like the black tile the

black tile during the BLM movement right

there was the everyone posted a black

tole on Tuesday right right right and

then if you didn't post the black tile

you're attacked for being racist yeah

yeah I just thought Instagram was broken

for a

day no I remember doing a post at the

time saying that I thought this was

ridiculous like and really the the the

part of it that was ridiculous was um

attacking people that hadn't done it uh

which exists under this assumption that

the normal thing to to do the normal

response to seeing a horrific video

where someone is suffocated to death is

to take to social media and post about

it like in fact that's the most unhuman

unnatural response to seeing something

which is quite troubling yeah um but The

Virtuous thing to do obviously that CL

the likes would be to fall in line and

if you look at that Stephen not to get

you know too far into the weeds of it

but one of the respons respers to that

terrible uh killing of George Floyd was

that a lot of people decided to take a

lot of understandable frustrations out

on policing and the police more broadly

and what happened is that a lot of the

police pulled back in several cities in

America and a lot of black people have

been killed as a result because there's

less police to actually keep the peace

and protect people from criminals so

that was another example of where an

understandable emotional reaction gets

converted into very bad action that's

counterproductive for the very community

that in that instance we were trying to

protect you said something a second ago

you said you don't believe that you need

to see it to believe it yeah like I

believe that and it speaks to a broader

thing which is I I I think that you and

I having spoken to you beforehand and

you know we have big podcasts and

whatever you and I probably have a

better understanding and more similar

values around certain things then we

would do people of our own background

and that's because people aren't just

these stupid super icial things right so

when we talk about you need to see

someone like you succeed I'm like well I

didn't I didn't need to look at someone

who looked like me to be successful I

saw people in America doing podcasts

about the similar talking about stuff

that I wanted to talk about I was like

oh great maybe I can try that and then I

did you know and I think teaching people

that is going to open the doors for way

more people from Minority backgrounds

than teaching them that there's this one

guy

who looks like them that's been

successful I just I don't see it that

way I think the truth of of modern

Western society and this is why where we

started the conversation why we're so

lucky is that if you're talented if

you're driven if you're willing to work

on yourself if you're willing to read

and grow and and and have a goget a

mindset the world's your Royster it

doesn't matter what your skin color is

it's interesting because I I reflect on

when I started in business and for

whatever reason I had a lot of Role

Models All Around the World you know

whether it was Sir Richard Branson

studying his story or other people but I

I you two look incredibly similar I've

met him he's we're very very different

but you know he's a very very kind man

um but Jamal Edwards who was a young

black man probably the most famous young

black business person in the UK I was

obsessed with because there was

something about him and his story that

killed my excuses and it kills your

victimhood MH which is if someone who

was a young black man who is walk up

that ladder you're trying to walk up and

they don't come from money and they had

a job in I think Top Shop normal dude

didn't have like a you know incredible

education Oxford you go I've got no

excuse right and that's and that that

part of it I've always rated which is if

someone like you is walked in those

footsteps before it helps kill your

excuses and it gives you no reason sure

but think about what that meant for you

though what you're talking about is

undoing the brand the brainwashing that

already existed yeah right yeah yeah

yeah yeah yeah so it's not that like you

you needed a black person you needed

someone who you could look at and say oh

no no all this stuff I've been

brainwashed into thinking isn't true but

on the point of brainwashing yeah it is

objectively true that if I I think if

you if you look at studies where they

take someone with a name that is

associated with a certain race and they

like sent a thousand emails for a job

application you're much more likely to

get the job if you're called John yes

than like lante sure or

Constantine like you're called Steven

yeah yeah my parents nailed it they

probably nailed it but we we could slice

this a billion different ways yeah you

could say look I'm 5'9 barely right if

you look at the CEOs CEOs of the top

Fortune 500 companies they're all over

six foot basically um the tallest

president presidential candidate in

America almost always win wins like

height heightism height discrimination

is massive especially against men what

am I going to do well I'm gonna complain

about that I'm gonna sit there and go oh

I'm 5'9 it's not going to change

anything right so the only thing the

only option I have is do I take this and

run with it do I make it a strength of

some kind do I compensate for it

elsewhere MH or do I wallow in my

victimhood those are the choices man

yeah no one's going to make you grow can

you acknowledge that the brainwashing

exists that it's in in part objectively

true sure but it's also not a not reason

enough to become a victim sure okay but

that's all I'm saying myself my point is

that look of course different people are

treated differently and it's different

in different ways right like for example

I'm a first generation immigrant in this

country some people will see that as a

Bad Thing other people will see that as

a good thing right there are tradeoffs

to everything right being an outsider is

often bad but sometimes good so the only

thing that you can do is play the cards

that life has D you

right and so going i' I've been dealt

you could look people are free to do

whatever they want with their life if

you want to sit there and say you've

been dealt a bad hand of cards I'll

agree with you I mean fine you have but

it's not going to help you it's not

going to help you and what I want for

people is to thrive I want them to

thrive I want them to create the life

that they want and I know for a fact you

know I've been the son of very wealthy

people I've slept in a park in Edinburgh

for weeks because I couldn't afford Ren

the only person that is going to change

your life is you no one's coming to save

you no one's coming to rescue you no one

the Cavalry isn't coming it's just you

and you have the opportunity to take the

cards you've been dealt with and convert

them into the best possible outcome and

for some people having a job is

incredible taking the life that they've

been given and just having a job that

they can hold down and provide for their

family that in itself is a massive

achievement for others the sky is the

limit but you only get this one set of

cards and you only get to play it once

do you want to sit there and complain

that you were born with the wrong

genitals or the wrong skin color or

whatever or do you want to just play the

hand to the best of your ability that's

the choice it's interesting because you

said you want to help them Thrive yeah

and I think if you asked some of those

people they'd say they also want to

thrive and maybe they see the victimhood

as their path to thriving you know what

I mean that's just a cop out man that

like identity like because if I if I

become a victim then I have this group

of people and then they're going to be

nice to me and we're going to reinforce

each other and we you too me you know

like sure but it's not going to actually

help you it makes you feel good makes

you feel understood and everyone gets

does it make your life

better does it do you earn more money

does is your business more successful

well if you're like a diversity

consultant it does right but for

everyone else does it make your life

better first of all it makes you feel

awful right and we've all been there

we've all felt victims in certain

different situations because we've all

been victimized in in one way or another

you know whether it's a traumatic

childhood or things happen to you you

know uh all kinds of things happen to

people but ultimately you go talk to any

any good therapist or psychologists

they're not going to say to you yeah

yeah oh yeah you're really oppressed

yeah they're going to say this this is

your opportunity to grow this is your

opportunity to overcome yes we accept

that the things that happened to you

were wrong and bad and whatever but it's

acceptance and then you move on that's

how life Works do you think there's

differences in Generations as it relates

to this attitude what are you seeing

when it comes to like generation Zed as

they call them and how does that vary

from

Millennials some of the stuff that I we

have genz people working for us at

trigonometry and I'm like some of the

things about them are incredible young

people are always amazing because

they've had the benefit of learning

stuff like knowing stuff that we had to

learn right like I had to learn this

they just get given it on YouTube or

whatever they can watch a video

and like for 10 minutes and no stuff

that it took me 20 years to unpack right

um on the one hand on the other hand

this is a generalization you can't

generalize about people but my

experience is in the workplace for

example they they think about their role

in in such a disproportionately

grandiose way comp like we had I

remember Francis and I my co and try I

used to help him run a comedy club and

there were people who would who would

they literally just came in to help out

they were effectively doing an unpaid

internship and they'd like pipe up in

meetings and be like I think we should

do it like this like for my generation

you know the idea that I'd like say

anything in that meeting would have been

completely Preposterous you know what I

mean but look um every generation has

its own challenges I don't envy jenzi

because they grew up with phones from

day one and we are starting to to

realize I think probably 20 years from

now we will look at phones like we look

at tobacco companies 30 or 40 years ago

like the fact that young people were

given smartphones from the age of 3 four

5 six or whatever that was just kind of

Cruelty really I think and we're

starting to find that out so uh it's

look it's very easy always to to slag

off young people um I we need them we

need them to be the best versions of

themselves so I'm always thinking about

encouraging and lifting them up and

mentoring and and all of that certainly

the people that I know from that

generation but they do face unique

challenges and and kind of smacking some

of that self-centeredness out of them is

part of it you hopeful for

them I'm very torn about this more

generally as well I'm someone who's

incredibly optimistic

personally as I look out of the world

today I'm not optimistic about the world

I am optimistic personally so it's a

it's a very weird thing I think that as

I say I think gen Z they've had some

really difficult things imposed on them

by their parents and of structure and

discipline imposed on them by their

parents on the other hand they have

tremendous opportunities too so I guess

it just remains to be

seen you're not optimistic about the

world definitely not definitely why well

we started talking about I think the

West undermining itself um whether you

think the West is good or bad is kind of

irrelevant for this part of

it when the the the the civilization

that is

dominant which is us there's six great

civilizations in the world today Western

Civilization who are the descendants of

the Western Roman Empire Eastern

Christian civilization who had descended

from Byzantium the Eastern Christian

Romans Empire so that's the center of

that Civilization is Russia now uh the

two Islamic civilizations the Arabs and

the Persians Persians Iran China and

India the Chinese and the Indians

right Western Civilization has been

dominant around the world for many many

centuries now

when the dominant civilization becomes

weakened especially from the inside

whichever one that is what that opens up

is what Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping

and others are now talking about this is

what they mean when they talk about the

multi-polar world what they mean is they

get to

play they get to make a play for that

dominant position they don't no one

wants to No One Vladimir putins and the

XI Jin p don't want to sing you know

hold hands and sing Kumbaya that's not

what they're into they want to be the

dominant Force like America has been for

a very long time and so when when the

king of the H Hill gets weaker and

signals weakness to others what happens

is conflict that's what happens so even

if you don't think Western values are

good values which I happen to think they

are for reasons we can get into the fact

that we are increasing the level of

conflict around the world by signaling

weakness I think is a bad thing right so

Ukraine is a very good example of that

whether Taiwan happens as some people

are predicting or we don't know it's not

a good thing if you look at what

happened in Israel the reason Hamas felt

comfortable to attack Israel on October

7th is he did is the Iranians who back

Hamas feel comfortable in challenging

Israel because Israel is America's Ally

in the Middle East right so there is

this great game being played and and it

is about throwing the West up its

pedestal

so even if you weren't comfortable with

the West's dominance the fact that it is

likely coming to an end is a bad thing

for the world in the interim because it

means there's more conflict uh and

there's more violence uh and there's

more strife and there's more Discord and

just to be clear the reason why it's

coming to an end in your view is because

of the internal Division and the

internal

conflict that's part of it look it's a

look the the the the rise and decline of

civilizations is a very complicated

thing part of it is economic right but

even if you look at our economic

problems um the biggest problem that

Western countries face is our level of

debt right look at debt as a societal

issue national debt what does that mean

well one of the things it means is we've

we've broken the intergenerational

conflict uh intergenerational contract

between your generation your children's

generation and the generation before

yours and mine right effectively our

parents are unwilling to sacrifice for

their grandchildren that's what debt

means because what we're doing is we're

borrowing from the future right we are

operating at more than 100% GDP debt at

the moment and we're increasing it all

the time because we're running deficits

America is borrowing like crazy what

does that mean you and I are not going

to be even you and I are not going to be

paying it off our children will right is

that the behavior of people who feel

like they're one that they're United

that they're looking after the Next

Generation look at

GDP per capita I mean one of the reasons

uh we have uh levels of mass immigration

that we do today politicians will tell

you we need Mass immigration to boost

our economy and they're only half Ling

um they're they're telling you that

because it's true in order that they can

pretend our GDP is growing we need to

bring in more people but our GDP per

capita is falling and has been for some

time so the Gen Z generation are going

to be poorer than you and

I is that a reflection of a society that

is cohesive is reflection of a society

that feels like it's one that we're

looking after the Next Generation which

is our first Duty as people right U so

even our economic problems which are

significant in my opinion are partly

because of the cultural malays that we

experience and then everything flows

from that as we talked about at the

beginning if you brainwash people for

decades now to think that their society

is bad and wrong and evil well they're

not going to be willing to advance its

interest they're not going to be able to

go and fight and defend it in war it's

Etc we're weakening ourselves who's

doing the

brainwashing a lot of it has been

happening in Academia since the 60s so

Educators uh who were uh being

encouraged and funded and supported by

my boys from the Soviet Union at the

time to demoralize the West they

encouraged a lot of these marxists and

one of the things we haven't yet touched

on is um the ideology of wokeness is

really a new form of Marxism it's a kind

of race Marxism I know this sounds like

very abstract and crazy I don't know if

it does to you but maybe to many people

in your audience so perhaps I can lay it

out a little bit can you explain what

Marxism is well sure so Marxism was an

ideology created obviously by KL marks

and Angel who who funded him and

assisted him and the idea was very

simple uh the idea was that the way to

understand human society is through the

lens of Oppression we we've talked about

this before right there are some people

who are the oppressors and some people

who are oppressed who are the oppressors

in Marx's original idea the oppressors

were the Bourgeois the cap the people

who owned what he called the means of

production the factories the the capital

the stock like you are you are now a

member of the Bourgeois a capitalist you

own a business right and what he said

was that you are oppressing your

producer and everyone who works for you

because you take their labor and you

profit from it without giving them back

the right amount of value in exchange um

and by the way just like with a lot of

these other ideas it was true in the

sense that Marxism really is a reaction

to the rampant abuse that was caused by

the Industrial Revolution in which you

know you had people sleeping in

factories and chimney sweeps that were

12 years old up chimneys you know dying

all of that right so as with all of

these ideas there is a kernel of truth

but what he said and you know the people

who really practiced this idea the most

were the Soviets and the Chinese

Communist is well how do you solve this

problem oh very simple you got to take

from the oppressors and you got to give

to the oppressor

from each according to his ability to

each according to his needs however the

problem is it turns out that communism

is effectively a great idea at the

family level like your family is a

communist Society so is mine like I go

out to work I earn money we spend it

together on the needs of my wife my

children blah blah blah that's communism

right we share what one productive

person produces other people do other

jobs they may not be paid as well blah

blah

blah the level of society doesn't really

work because people are self-interested

and to make them not self-interested to

make them all give up everything for the

needs of the state and other other

people you have to use a lot of force

right which is why you have to kill 50

million people in Russia 50 million

people in China to even make it happen

now what happened was you got to

remember this is very important people

forget this when the Soviet Union was

created it was not designed to be a

Countrywide phenomenon the communist

belied that the only rightly by the way

that the only way communism would work

is if you made everyone in the world

communist because if you made everyone

communist then no one could look at over

the border and look at these evil

capitalists having a great life everyone

would be equally poor and then they'd be

happy that was the idea right um and so

the idea of the the Russian

Revolution wasn't about making Russia

Communists communist it was about making

the world communist it was the world

Revolution that's why the Soviet Union

the the the the symbolism of the Soviet

Union it never had anything to do with

Russia or the Soviet Union on the flag

it had the globe and the hammer and

sickle the point was this ideology was

meant to spread to the entire world the

problem was that when people saw what

was actually happening in the Soviet

Union they really didn't want that and

most of all people in Western societies

including the working class who was

supposed to be the oppressed and to

overthrow their oppressive people they

didn't want that they just wanted to

have a nice life and to have a house and

to blah blah blah um and so the Marxist

in the west they very quickly realized

that this wasn't going to work Western

workingclass people were not going to

overthrow the existing regime and have a

a Soviet style Revolution where they

slaughter all the bouris and the

capitalist so they had to find a

different way to approach it which is

why they invented this form of race

Marxism they said no no no you're not no

you're not really oppressed cuz you're

working class and you don't have Capital

the reason you you're oppressed is

you're a man you're gay you're black

you're this you're that and that really

landed with people particularly

multiethnic societies like ours where we

have a lot of people from Minority

backgrounds um it coincided with the

sexual Revolution I know you've had my

friend Lis Perry on the show yeah uh I

don't know if you talked about this but

the pill basically changes the

relationship between men and women women

are liberated so now a lot of this stuff

also happens and so what happened in the

60s is a lot of Educators in Academia

started teaching these ideas to students

and then you have successive generations

of people who are now essentially

trained to think that our societies were

bad uh what they were was about

oppression racism bigotry imperialism uh

colonialism slavery Etc uh which all of

these things have a kernel of Truth and

that kernel of Truth is used to tell

gigantic lies and cuz I because often

when we we talk about this division

that's happening internally Within West

we think of it as the other side of

doing it but a second ago you really

pointed at forces far a field are

tinkering and actually there was a story

this week I think or last week where a

podcaster has been I think like arrested

and had her channels deleted because it

turns out I didn't go deep into the

story she hasn't been arrested but yes

perhaps I can just summarize it quickly

so there was a company in America called

tenant media who were given $10 million

in a very short period of time so I'm

sure it would have been more by a

Russian today

Affiliated uh influencers and various

nefarious actors from Russia effectively

to uh disseminate certain types of

information through right-wing

influences in America and this has been

happening for decades there's a guy

called Yuri basmanov if you're not

familiar with him this guy's going to

blow your mind you should look him up he

was a Soviet Defector uh in the 80s who

came uh from the Soviet Union to India

to Canada ended up in America he gave

series of lectures which people can

watch on YouTube about what the Soviet

intelligence Services were actually

focusing on because during the Cold War

you might not remember this but you know

people thought about Soviet spies as

like stealing microfilms of American

nuclear installations and all of this

stuff actually what he said was almost

all of their resources were used on what

he called

demoralization and demoralization is the

process whereby you divide Society and

you activate nefarious forces within

that Society against the society so you

encourage forces that are destabilizing

this is one thing that people don't

understand about Russian misinformation

disinformation influence operations Etc

they're not designed to get a specific

person elected this is how British

people and Americans think they're like

you know well I invest $10 million to

get this outcome it's not what they do

what they want is to create a cacophony

of Lies so that you don't know what to

believe anymore is this true is that

true and so they were they are and were

and have always been paying people in

the west or using people in the west to

seow Discord to divide people against

each other to say uh the Soviet Union by

the way was very active in in funding

militant uh African-American groups uh

in the 60s and 70s and 80s in America

and in fact whenever people would say to

uh the Soviets well look you're like

starving millions of people and putting

them in gags by would say well what

about black people in America they're

you don't treat them well right so who

are you to tell us about all of this

stuff so by the way this isn't like um a

unique thing like America does this too

America Funds liberal organizations in

Russia to get Russian liberals to act in

their interest this is what all

civilizations do I'm just saying maybe

we should protect our civilization from

this foreign influence so yes uh foreign

forces are at play but you can't like no

I I don't know I imagine there's no

amount of money that people could give

you to spread Russian propaganda on this

show there's no amount of money that

people could give me to spread Russian

propaganda or Chinese propaganda on my

show what they do is they find people

who already agree with them and then

they amplify their voice using money and

influence and say look we'll we'll we'll

give you you know we'll give you $10

million and you can come to this great

conference we'll we'll give you an

opportunity to interview this guy who's

close to Vladimir Putin or or this guy

who who says this or that person or this

person and they they just take the

forces within our society that already

destabilizing and they amplify them so

this podcaster in the United States it

was tenant media is that one podcast or

is that a network of podcasts so what

happened is they had a network of

podcasters underneath them who is

according to the indictment they were

all being used so they didn't know they

were being paid by Russia okay U they

were just all being used and never now

and again again we don't know the full

details but it would be like hey have

you seen this new story like the

ukrainians might have been involved in

the terrorist attack in Russia maybe you

should cover it and one of them did

stuff like that okay and they weren't

necessarily picking a side were they no

they were picking a side oh so they were

Pro Trump or Pro Cala or well they were

mostly right-wing influences uh but the

person in question whose name is Lauren

Chen she actually started agitating

people against Donald Trump at one point

which is my point they are not trying to

get a particular person elected they are

trying to make you go who do I vote

what's going like just to to confuse

everybody to the point that they don't

know what to believe and they don't know

what to think and they don't know what

to do looks like it's working that's my

point which is why we need in the west

to have a very clear idea of who we are

where we're going how we got here what

makes our society successful where we've

come from and to reject the lies about

our history because this is why uh both

the crazy left and the crazy right want

to revise our history

so that we don't know who we are anymore

so that we can't say well actually

Britain is a great country and has done

incredible things for the world right uh

you know Britain is the country that has

the first modern Parliament it's a

country that spread democracy around it

it's a country that actually the first

Empire in history that ended slavery it

ended

slavery it didn't invent it it ended it

slavery was the norm and then the

British came along practiced slavery

just like everybody else and a terrible

thing it was and then they spent a

tremendous amount of blood money and

treasure to end slavery not only within

the British Empire they spent a huge

amount of diplomatic military and

financial Capital to for to force other

countries to end slavery in those

countries as well right but that's not

what you're being taught in school right

now is it no and and that's the problem

because if you think of your society as

based on these terrible things well why

would you want its values to persevere

and continue in the future it may be

wonder if there there is any hope or any

solution to this because immediately as

I was thinking is there a way to stop

the division and most of the division

actually happens on the internet now

it's not like we're out on the streets

and the way the algorithms work is they

reinforce an opinion so you get

literally like coins at the casino for

saying something where a big group of

people clap and Nuance is like the enemy

of social media growth I think like if

you if like if you express a solution to

a problem as complex and nuanced who the

[ __ ] who the [ __ ] wants to hear a

complex Nuance like really that that I

think there's much more reward for me to

say this is bad yes or this is amazingly

good and if you're in either of those

camps you know exactly who's clapping

yes whereas in the middle as we've kind

of you probably experienced it a lot as

a

podcaster um like you don't get the

support the full support of either side

maybe maybe the middle exists I don't

know well the center is the place of

greatest tension it always is because

you're getting fire from both sides uh

and picking a tribe is always much more

comfortable and more convenient but this

is where I think actually the beauty of

the internet is too

like 20 years ago you and I both would

have had some kind of rich

funer not me or you but someone who

actually had loads of money who would be

funding this and telling you what you

supposed to talk

about I don't have to give a [ __ ] what

anyone thinks there is an audience out

there for the nuanced balanced here's

the thing I think about this but also

about this take

and you know look yes absolutely uh you

know if you're Andrew Tay you're going

to get a bigger audience saying what

you're saying or the equivalent of of

the left whatever that looks like uh

then I might but yeah I'm very happy

with a million subscribers on YouTube

I'm very happy that 60,000 people read

my substacks every week and that's

growing too there is a market out there

for everybody and then ultimately I

think it comes down to is who are you

and who do you want to be I didn't get

into this to be the richest or the most

successful podcaster in the world I got

into this because I wanted to promote

critical thinking I wanted to promote

the truth and the pursuit of truth I

don't claim to know the truth but I'm

trying to find out what it is um and I

wanted people in the west to remember

what they have to be grateful for it to

defend it uh to stand up for the values

that made these societ is great you said

a second ago that we've we need to

remember who we are um if we are going

to be successful as society and one of

the things that did sort of anchor Us in

values was religion yes and I'm um I I

was born to a very religious Christian

family um went to church a lot when we

were younger um my mother's still

extremely religious my father is

religious as well I believe I still

think he's religious and at about 18 or

19 years old I discovered Like Richard

Dawkins books and had this like

existential crisis for two

[Music]

years and then after the existential

crisis which lasted two years and me

like you know really trying to find the

answers I kind of was just at piece with

it and I would class myself now as being

agnostic yeah but in the last six months

I classed myself as being

agnostic but you're by curious now my

Curious yeah it's like you're God

curious you can always feel me going

back to the beginning again but much of

that I think is what you described which

is because we've become more

individualistic more lonely all these

kinds of things we're now searching for

purpose again yes and for for values

that are anchored in something yes um I

wondered what your take was on the

impact that us becoming a more atheist

Society has had on all these things look

I an agnostic myself um I that's not to

say that I think you know I'm not a

materialist in the sense that like this

is it right it's definitely not it and I

know that experientially I know that

there are ways that human beings connect

that are Way Beyond you know the things

that we can see with our eyes and hear

with our ears uh there are powerful

forces in this world that are spiritual

in nature these are not things I can

prove and I have no intention of trying

but they exist

um but there's no question that the the

the decline of religion has meant that

people are lacking meaning and lacking

purpose and lacking guidance and lacking

discipline and lacking a set of rails in

which to live their lives

um the the hope is that from that comes

something else um you know there have

been many great religions throughout

history there's no reason to say that

the ones we currently have are the last

ones we're ever going to have um God

knows what AI is going to do to our

sense of who we are and what our purpose

is and what our mission is um and also

you

know there is purpose to be found in

other things you you know if if you are

fortunate enough like me to become a

father at some point that really changes

your perspective on so many different

things and and gives you a sense of

meaning and purpose I'm sure your work

is very meaningful to you um but yes at

a societal level uh uh the death of

religion is has been very impactful in

that way for sure do you think we'd be

better if we went back to being more

religious as a society forgive me but

that's a stupid question because you

can't go back really no you can't go

back to anything the part of the reason

we are less religious is the the

material circumstances of our lives have

changed very dramatically

um and you can't put the toothpaste back

in the tube you can go forward and

that's what I'm alluding to uh I don't

think the the religious age is over I

mean human beings clearly have a

religious Instinct that has lasted

through Through the Ages and usually

religion has been there to explain to us

the things that we do not understand I

think that with a lot of the

technological breakthroughs that we're

about to see there's going to be a whole

range of things that I don't even know

what they are that we we're not going to

understand exactly and the spiritual

attitude we take to those things may be

different yet again we'll find out or a

lot of people will go to religion but I

don't think they're going to go to like

the 960s version of it do you know what

I mean yeah and I I think I think about

I read some work that said that a lot of

young Western men in particular were

choosing Islam obviously we've seen

people like Andrew Tate as well make the

decision but that there was this rise in

Young Western men deciding to come out

or convert to Islam that makes sense

that makes a lot of sense why uh because

a Islam is a religion that offers

particularly men quite a lot of the

things that they really

want right discipline

structure uh reward mhm uh

Community

um the I mean one of the things about

Islam when you contrast it against

Christianity and and Western values

today's Western values more broadly is

Islam like very few other things is is

one of the ideologies that still allows

men to be strong and confident right in

modern Western Society what is a man

supposed to be look at your adverts look

at your movies look at everything man's

supposed to be this PA

pathetic weak uh you second to his

strong female counterpart right uh men

are supposed to step back and make space

and all of this Islam says no no no

you're you're the man that's always

going to be appealing to men who who

increasingly feel particularly younger

men who in many ways they've got the

short end of the stick while being told

that they are privileged and blah blah

blah blah blah like young men are not in

positions of privilege in in our society

now they do worse in education they do

worse in all sorts of other things and

at the same time they're being demonized

right it's very natural that their

response to that is going to be things

like that and you know people often talk

about Andrew Tay as a very problematic

figure which certainly is but to me the

blame he's to me is the symptom of a of

of a much bigger underlying wider

problem like my

generation's version of that was Jordan

Peterson who I thought was a very

constructive force and still is I had

the privilege of touring with him in

America this year and was incredible and

he's a very positive constructive person

but the more you try to prevent men from

being men the more you're going to get

the backlash and I think people joining

Islam following these hyper masculine

influences going to like one of the

reasons if you notice loads of guys are

like now into going to the gym and being

like not just going to the gym to like

be healthy but like they're buff right

because that's one of the very few

acceptable ways for men to be men in

modern society right because the things

that we conven would associate with

masculinity you know strength confidence

aggression dominance Etc they're kind of

looked down upon for guys nowadays right

um and so well at least I can go to the

gym and I can look buff right it's so

true I was just thinking about the

people my father might have looked up to

he's from Coventry and when I from my

memory of his idols they were like rock

stars in bands yeah they were like

skinny like probably smoked some weed

they all had long hair my dad had long

hair as well like this down to his

shoulders when I saw some old photos of

him and I imagine his version of like

the Andrew Tate was that I know the lead

singer of like the Beatles or whatever

yeah or his favorite rock band but

you're right all of our people we look

up to in society they probably do

Brazilian jiu-jitsu right they go to the

gym yeah there's some they fight in some

way yeah boxing UFC whatever and it's

much you know because I think that's one

of the reasons that the UFC is crushing

it as hard as it is I mean Dana why is a

brilliant business guy and it's a great

product and it's fascinating but I think

one of the reasons there such an

obsession with combat sports nowadays is

that it's like well at least I can see

like men being men type of thing do you

know what I mean cuz nowhere else am I

going to get that I think that's it's

undoubtedly to me a kind of like

misplace misplaced masculinity or maybe

it's not misplaced it's just like the

one place you can actually see it you

know and you're allowed to celebrate

masculinity in that way the the hyper

masculinity it's a very interesting

moment that we're in is is there a

solution that you can see to the issues

that men are facing in the sort of

modern world where suicide rates are

through the roof loneliness depression

look the solution for men is always

going to be the same uh which is to be

better to do better to work harder to

learn skills to grow to develop uh to

look for mentors to look for guidance uh

and to do things it's always going to be

the way like no like I said no one's

coming to save you and this is uh this

is why victimhood that we talked about

earlier it's especially bad for men CU

you know we feel sorry for women we

don't really feel sorry for men right so

if a woman is a victim everyone wants to

like go and help her and support her and

it's natural and understandable there's

a very good evolutionary reasons for

this I think um which is men are

biologically disposable basically um you

know if you have a tribe of 10 men 10

women you send the men off to war one

comes back you can replenish the tribe

and that's a one very lucky dude if if

you do it the other way around and you

send the women off to war you're screwed

right and so um men are kind of

disposable we didn't evolve to feel

sorry for them and so for guys again

like you just got to do stuff and be

better and yes you've been dealt a bad

hand you have compared to the previous

generations where like men were in

charge and all of that you're going to

have to find a way and wokeism um and

sort of I guess political correctness

and Council culture and all these things

are much of the weapons that are used to

put men in those situations you would

argue yeah uh but you know I I think

with I always worry when we have these

conversations that um to say that

men young men especially younger than me

I think have a bad deal is often like

people try and immediately shove you in

some kind of box like you're some men's

rights blah blah blah I just think

that's an observable fact and the reason

I think it's important is um that men

and women need to work together mhm men

and women have had to work together for

the entire history of human existence

one of the terrible things about

wokeness is that it creates these

divisions between men and women you know

men are this women are that and you see

the the the response to that from the

aggressive masculine side now or women

are all this and women are all that

actually the thing that men and women

really need more than anything is each

other they need to work together that

operates at the level of your

relationship with your girlfriend my

wife but broader Society too like we

have different skill sets we are

naturally inclined to towards different

things we have to find ways to work

together better um and so when one side

suffers there was a time when women were

treated very badly a lot of them that

wasn't good uh treating men badly isn't

going to work out well either what you

really need is finding ways for men and

women to be healthy together in

relationships um and so that's I think

important to say that that's the

objective if that's the goal if that's

the objective that we're holding up then

the question is how do we get there and

and question the answer to that is not

to point fingers at the other sex and

say they are this and they are that but

to go well men are naturally aggressive

and dominant and Status seeking and all

of this stuff and let's find ways to

channel that into effective things like

we need guys to like stand on

construction sites and Hammer [ __ ] into

the ground and all of that um and we

need women to do other things that are

more natural to them I mean look once

you have a kid and you start taking them

to like Nursery you find find out that

you know there is no gender equality in

a kindergarten it's like mostly women

that run that place and that's the way

it should be and that's that's makes

sense so um we have different

inclinations different skill sets it's

not to say there aren't exceptions of of

course there are right but generally

speaking we need to work together that's

the point yeah I think even um

mentioning that there might be

biological differences in male and

female is where people like the you know

those that are looking for

watery they come out in but I think

anyone in their private relationship can

very clearly State the differences

between men and women and as you say

they're not sweeping and there are

exceptions but how beneficial I don't

know anything about you we've just met

but I

imagine your girlfriend's Been

instrumental in your life would that be

fair to say of course I wouldn't be

anywhere near where I am without my wife

like and we both reap the benefits of

that I'm sure that's the case with you

that's how it's supposed to work on an

individual level and at the level of

society holding each other up filling in

gaps like the first time I remember you

know something when I was young when I

was about 20 like full of testosterone I

remember watching my mom resolve a

conflict with a joke and a smile and to

me it was like magic I was like whoa you

can do that and then I that was a

helpful thing for me to learn you know

but in my masculine boarding school kind

of environment you'd never do that right

it was all about who can like win and

fight and dominate and whatever we're

useful to each other we can learn from

each other that's the attitude that we

should have towards each other and the

other sex I love the what the term you

use there when you said hold me up

because that's exactly what my partner

does for me right and I think she'd

probably say the other the same for her

sure which I think it goes to your point

about what it should be this s Mutual we

fill in the blanks in each other's maps

of the world in emotional states there's

certain emotional states that I find

very hard to get out of my wife can come

in and be like boom boom boom done and

vice versa right and they're not the

same we've been told the lie that men

and women are the same what about

problematic men like Harvey Weinstein

and stuff like yeah terrible of course

the the whole me too movement exposed

this wave of like I someone on my

podcast said it was at the

neuroscientist America he said um we've

called men out but we need to make sure

we call them back in if that kind of

makes sense well I think the mistake we

made was we called Mana instead of

calling toxic Mana in the same way that

people who are itical of women now they

will point to certain female traits or

certain female people who behave in ways

that are very toxic and they will

broaden and generalize from that onto

all women right Harvey Weinstein does

not represent me in fact throughout

history people like him would have

actually been dealt with by Good Men and

prevented from acting in that way right

I guess the argument is that it is all

men because you're having those

conversations in your group chat and

you're not not checking your uh your

friend or your I don't know Harvey's

friends didn't check him what kind of

group chats are you reading this is what

the this is what I see online as like

right but that makes absolutely zero

sense this is this is the thing is like

if you want to generalize about an

entire group of people generally

speaking we think that's a bad thing to

do like if you were to do that about

pakistanis people wouldn't be be into

that right if if I was to do that about

black people nobody would be into that

but the moment it's men suddenly that's

that's totally cool now now we're going

to do this doesn't make any sense free

speech is at the heart of this right

because we're talking about social media

platforms the ability to express ideas

and not be scared um free speech has

been on a bit of a journey over the even

the last 10 years I think if you just

looked at where we were 10 years ago and

then five years ago and then the

pandemic and then now it feels like all

four of those moments were in a

different place what what's your

observation of that story AR Free Speech

well it's all very contextual right and

depends where you are uh what you do and

what your opinions are um one thing

people forget give you one brief example

right because people a lot of people

make free speech a political issue they

say well this side cares about it

because they want to say their stuff and

this side doesn't care about it because

blah blah blah right during the pandemic

when the vaccine came out in America the

person who was pushing the vaccine was

Donald

Trump and people who were opponent oon

of his on the left said I'm not taking

Trump's vaccine blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah right the moment the

presidency changed suddenly you couldn't

criticize the vaccine right and suddenly

you know you wanted to kill people if

you had some reservations about some

things about it right so free speech