do we get fatter with age yes between 20

and 50 years old the average person will

gain about 15 kilos in weight I don't

want to be that guy what can I do okay

so Dr Giles yo he's the world leading

expert on fat and how to burn it his

book is called why calories don't count

what you eat does matter let's talk

about how we fix the Obesity how we burn

fat how we all get into a healthy weight

everyone's brain hates it when they lose

weight we're talking even a few pounds

it goes this is reducing my chance of

survival the moment you stop the diet

the weight will come back on calories

are not accurate what's the truth the

calorie tells you absolutely nothing

zero so if you actually look at a stick

of celery Raw it's got only six calories

if you cook the celery that's six

calories becomes 31. understand the

limitations and caveats of calories

veganism what are the general

stereotypes that need addressing

veganism plant-based in particular is a

diet for the privileged people who can

choose to do so we do not need everyone

to be vegan sustainable weight loss what

is the way that you would suggest to do

that the simple way hey it is the set of

numbers that you can apply to whatever

diet you like so the first is

let's talk about something else which I

feel like I was lied to about oh God

which is juice oh yes

I just want to start this episode with a

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[Music]

Giles hello a pleasure to sit with you

I've been a big fan of your work for a

very long time and I've consumed many of

your YouTube videos conversations you've

had interviews and these fantastic books

you've written but I want to I want to

start by asking you to give me a bit of

an overview of your academic Journey as

a as a researcher

um as a graduate of Cambridge and an

overall flavor of the work you do the

experience you have and the expertise

you have

so so I am uh I'm from San Francisco

um that's where I did my high school I

did my undergraduate where I studied

um genetics that's what that's why I

studied as an as an undergrad then I

came to Cambridge to do my PhD

um and I worked on the genetics of the

Japanese puffer fish Fugu Rupert Peas I

I know I know so there's a long reason

why I did that but I was looking at

molecular evolution

um so and I was well trained as a

geneticist but then I realized that

genetics of pufferfish was not going to

pay my mortgage and was at this point I

needed a job so I finished my PhD I went

knocking on doors actually I didn't look

at any adverts or anything I just went

the department I said you know what I'm

just going to see if anyone has a job

and the second door I knocked on was a

guy named Steve O ratley and he had just

identified the very first obesity gene

in humans when mutated cause really

severe obesity This was 1998.

um and I joined this lab I was I was

from a famous lab I was a geneticist he

needed

um he had just found the first obesity

genetics genes he needed a geneticist

that's how I got into genetics of

obesity so that's how I started and then

I started with the genetics of severe

childhood obesity so

um kids who are three years old but 100

pounds so so this is not we're not

talking just a little bit chubby just

just drink too much uh Coca-Cola type

type of things I mean these are

mutations which cause really really

severe obesity that's what that's where

I started my career where they can't

stop eating they can't stop eating

because in particular

so because they lack the signal between

fat and the Brain there is a signal it's

a hormone which lets your brain know how

much fat you're carrying that's

important because how much fat you're

carrying is how long you would last in

the wild if there was no food so if your

food sources stopped today so it's an

important piece of information

but if you lack that signal like some of

these children do this is one of the 100

pound kids I was telling you about then

what they have is a brain that thinks

that they're starving because now

there's no signal so the brain thinks

they have no fat when don't you have any

fat when you're starving and so these

poor kids who we think and we judge look

at that fat kid what's that look that

their parents don't care about them

right because there is a mutation

the signal is broken the child cannot

control their diet that's what I started

studying um 30 years ago 25 years ago if

meeting what happened next in terms of

your academic journey I began to move

away from extreme obesity

to look at all body weight whether or

not you are skinny medium-sized or large

and secondly I also began to think I

can't just hide myself in a lab and do

this because otherwise there are going

to be people thinking that this kid's

fault that he is 100 pounds or someone

might be a BMI someone might be 10

pounds overweight and think it's their

fault as well

um that was for me a big turning point

to change what I was doing when I was

studying to make it more General

um and to also begin to do things like

uh to podcasts or to speak speak to you

and write books and do so do things more

broadly and speak to people outside the

academic environment and you've done a

number of shows on the BBC and

documentaries right I I I found three at

least

um the first one in 2016 called why are

we getting so fat in 2017 clean eating

the dirty truth and in 2018 vitamin

pills Miracle or myth

and obviously as well you've written

these two fantastic books called why

calories don't count and Gene eating

so my question becomes why why did you

focus on food why did you care

personally enough to pursue with such

persistence the topic of food why is

that personal to you could have done

anything with your with your

intelligence why food

so well first of all I love food so so

does that I do I do love food but

actually no we followed the biology so

we now understand more broadly that when

we study the genetics of body weight we

are by its very definition studying the

genetics of how our brain influences our

feeding Behavior so there was an

academic reason for uh um for this so

just as an example why do some people

respond to stress by eating whereas

other people respond to stress by not

eating it's exactly the same hormone but

people literally respond in diametric

opposite Fashions okay why do people

love food some people use food as fuel

etc etc and so on my academic side I

began to try and understand the

mechanisms I was interested in that but

then it got me thinking about food it

got me thinking well hang on a second

when I travel just as an example

um particularly pre-covered and I end up

in an airport somewhere International

O'Hare in Chicago or something like that

and I'm transferring planes for whatever

reason I have to I find myself having I

get stressed a little bit I find myself

having to eat a big bowl of carbs

particularly rice or noodles and I was

thinking about this this became a habit

whatever airport I'm in particularly if

I was transiting I would try and find

the closest place I could get a big bowl

of noodles in fact just before I came

here what I had for what I had for lunch

I went to Bone Daddy's to have Ramen so

so that's exactly that I wasn't no I

wasn't stressed but but I was trying to

relax okay and so that was what really

got me into I said well hang on a second

what is it about food that makes me

relax and calm and that I love and then

what is it about food that makes some

people so angry you know we're almost

religious almost Evangelical about it

and that is where I started thinking

there is a link here between what I do

in my day job in the lab and I teach and

I and what have you and what I think

about you know from broadcasting from

writing and that is when I said you know

if I'm going to do something I want to

enjoy it I love food I research food I I

you know I write about food that's the

reason why because because I love it and

I thought that it was an I wanted to

know more about myself and hence then

more about other people as well your

reference to a day job there what is

your day job as we sit here today so my

day job is I'm a professor at the

University of Cambridge and I teach and

I research there so that's my day job

um and I have a I have a group and we

study how the brain controls food intake

through using cells using molecules so

that's the day job I say that I mean

this is obviously I mean the writing is

is also a job obviously but it's it's

what I do in my spare time and actually

what's interesting is it's what has made

me I think a better scientist I think

too many scientists

lose perspective and that no that's fine

right I mean I mean I'm not more

brilliant than than they're many more

much more brilliant people than me but I

think people do lose perspective and I

think you need to go out out of the lab

you need to speak to do you need to ask

what people are interested in in a

broader broader Society what they

understand about what you do and so

that's that that's the reason why I do

what I do and why I say the day job

versus this even though I merge it all

together you've been studying food

genetics these topics for almost three

decades is that accurate since 1998 25

years okay

where are we in terms of culture

um as it relates to our opinion and

perspective on food you know what I mean

by that like if you started 25 years ago

when you observe how Society views food

the relationship it has with it versus

your perspective today where are we

today

I think it depends I I think there is a

polar response to food but we are in a

polarized Society we're living today and

I think the same is true about food I

think I'm I would like to think there

are people who enjoy food who love food

we we watch MasterChef we watch cooking

programs we love the food you know we

everyone loves Nigella that kind of

thing but then equally I don't know of

the same number of people there are also

people who fear food okay now I study

obesity I do study obesity

um and I know that most of the

non-infectious diseases we suffer from

today is because of poor diet most of it

obesity diabetes high blood pressure

certain heart diseases cancers Etc okay

this is true and so undoubtedly we need

to know more about our diet and we need

to fix the diet that we actually do it

but I don't do it through fearing food I

do it about understanding food about

loving food about learning how to cook

food better sourcing better food that

kind of thing right whereas there are a

lot of people in society who are talking

about restriction of food removing

entire food groups

um saying that this is the only way to

eat if you don't eat this way it is the

not the right way

um so I think we are in a polar

situation where in one on the one hand

we cannot consume enough food uh tallies

and cookbooks and and everything but yet

there is a huge section of society that

fears food so much that they that diet

has become this toxic word whenever we

talk about diets so I think that's where

we are at the moment we are in a polar

situation I read I read this word over

and over again in your work called

orthorexia what does orthorexia mean so

orthorexia is

a type of eating disorder people would

have heard of anorexia okay people would

have heard of bulimia

so anorexia clearly is a is a

controlling thing where you don't want

to eat bulimia is there's the binging

and there's the purging orthorexia is a

fear of not eating properly

it is another

I think it's an look I'm not a

psychologist and and a psychiatrist and

I'm not an eating disorder expert but I

think it stems from the same and from

the same root there is an there is an

effort to con wanting to control

something that you feel like you need to

control some people try and control

their diets other people pick something

it doesn't have to be I mean

you could say I want to be vegan or

plant-based or I want to be keto or I

want to do Carnival whatever it is you

want to do but then you become so hung

up on it that if it's not exactly

perfect if it's not exactly like right

you don't eat it so that is orthorexia

where suddenly you have to have

the burger but it's only cooked this way

it is a for lack of a better term it is

a

analogous to obsessive compulsive

Behavior but specifically with regards

to the way you prepare and are willing

to eat that specific food

I read something

um in your first book about orthorexia

Gene eating I believe it was this book

um in chapter 10 where you cite a study

of hundreds and hundreds of

women that follow food eating accounts

on Instagram and I think the study

concludes that about 49 of the women

that follow food eating accounts or food

accounts on Instagram have

what you would describe as orthorexia

um which is startling because that's 50

that's half the half the population that

follow these Instagram accounts have

this fear of messing up with their diet

but if you look I mean Instagram I think

is a very interesting thing I mean first

of all I as far as I understand someone

may correct me if I'm wrong the majority

of Instagram users are female yeah I'm

I'm not still and actually the biggest I

think probably what what are the two

biggest Instagram

um uh styles that are that we talk about

food or you talk about Fitness those are

the two big things there's many other

things as well and you're absolutely

right when you actually look at in fact

if I look at my Instagram followers okay

just just when you go to the little

things 89 are women there is no reason

to follow I just want to point out

there's no reason to to follow me other

than the fact that I talk about diets

all the time 89 really I mean I mean I

think that so if you consider me and I

talk about food okay and suddenly I'm

some you you know Joe Schmo nobody from

Cambridge who just who writes about food

and 89 are women then what happens if

you actually begin to talk about diets

and and it is it's it's it's true and a

huge number of them

it's easy

you know I look I look at Instagram too

and clearly my pictures are going to be

a little bit blah but there's some very

very well curated Instagram pictures the

the food is beautiful the people are

beautiful

um and but that's the purpose right it's

it's sort of like a little advertisement

campaign but I think there are many many

people even though they know because

people know I'm looking at a curated

curated item which I think deep down

inside think that this could be real and

this could be them and I think when you

take people who are susceptible to this

obsessive compulsive who are susceptible

to eating disorders and you suddenly put

that in front of of someone that I think

you you it can be triggering for some

people for me I

my sort of confusion with food and

dieting and weight loss and all of these

things stems from almost getting too

much advice and I think if you hung

around on Instagram for long enough if

you hang around just for like maybe a

day or two you would hear so much

conflicting advice on what the right

thing to do is this diet paleo keto you

should eat these plants and not eat that

don't eat meat and you've eventually you

go

[ __ ] I can't eat anything you know if

you listen to that much advice you'll go

well I can't eat anything and that

stifles you to a point where you're like

you're eating lettuce but then you

realize you're like you know and it's

just what can I eat the more food advice

I've consumed the less confident I've

become and what I can eat interestingly

I think when I was naive and ignorant

I was happier in terms of the orthorexia

you described that like fear of messing

up on my diet

I I think that the the real answer is

this the reason there is so much

conflicting advice is because there is

no One Singular right diet I think

there's some general principles we can

probably agree with okay we probably eat

too much sugar we probably need to not

eat so much uh um we need to a little

bit less meat and we need to eat more

vegetables okay so look if I say those

three things is anyone going to and if

anyone going to argue with me no because

it's a it's it's and that's probably one

of the Gen some of the general rules

but if you then begin to apply it into

your own self then the problem with

eating the problem with eating is

everyone is an expert at eating by its

very definition you're an expert at

eating I'm an expert at eating long

enough for us to be sat here having this

conversation and so when I eat a certain

way and I look at someone else and

eating is a very visible thing every

it's an open event and not only that you

then see what the person looks like okay

then in your head and we are human

beings simple we are nothing but mammals

we think Red Berry poison blueberry lion

whatever right and so you look look at

that fat person eating he's eating

something and so we begin to judge other

people based on what we're talking about

and now the major issues most people

keep their mouth shut mind their own

business and eat and do what and do what

they're doing but then you get loud

opinionated people who go on to

Instagram and say that look at that

person they're eating the wrong way the

right way is the way I eat look at me I

have a six pack you know etc etc and I

think that's the problem so the reason

why the information is conflicting is

because There Is No One Singular right

diet so it is going to be conflicting

you have people have to find the right

diet for themselves not only

biologically psychologically but also

lifestyle wise because because if you

don't find the right diet for you you're

never ever going to be able to stick to

it and and Thrive from it because you're

just not so I think that is the major

problem that's my biggest message if

anything is there's no right diet so on

this on that point if there being no

right diet a lot of that I guess is

because we have genetic differences

that's one element of it there are

genetic differences let's start there

then with my genetic makeup yep

um how might there be differences in my

genetic makeup that make my relationship

with food and eating and weight loss

different from yours

oh okay I I probably don't have as good

an answer genetics does not have as good

an answer about why different people eat

differently aside from cultural

differences at the moment okay so so the

genetics the reason behind that is

because it's very difficult to

accurately determine what someone has

eaten in order to Do genetics

what we do know because we can actually

observe is how people of different

ethnicities have are susceptible to

different diseases so famously

um East Asian people people that look

like me South Asian people Indian

pakistanis uh bangladeshis cannot get as

large

bmi-wise before becoming at risk of type

2 diabetes right compared to white

people Polynesians famously okay who can

get pretty large before they actually

end up get getting diseases so that's a

classic example where this is why South

Asian people East Asian people have a

higher predisposition of diabetes even

though obesity is not particularly a big

thing in their um in in their cultures

but then you then begin to look at body

shape that does that does matter as

matter as well where do you put your fat

do you tend to put a fat on your bum on

your tummy you know what is your um how

tall are you how short are you and all

of these things which we can see

visually we we can see

um there are people who are then

susceptible or not susceptible to

specific diseases other things you can't

see okay why are African Americans for

example more likely to end up with

cardiovascular heart disease okay less

likely with diabetes whereas why are

Indians you know more and so did you

then begin to ask the question and there

we have genetics what about in terms of

um this obese Gene I read in chapter two

of your book that there is a gene for

obesity there are more than a thousand

genes for body weight the obese Gene in

chapter two which I talk about is this

leptin Gene is this Gene which lets your

brain know how much fat you have so

that's the exact Gene leptin is the gene

that I talk about in chapter two with

the obese it's called the obese Gene

because the mouse was called obese there

was a lack of imagination

um because the mouse was a naturally

occurring Mouse

um that that had a mutation in the same

gene scientists found out what that was

and then found out that it was conserved

in humans and that's where my boss

Steven ratley then came in and found

that that Gene was also mutated in in

some humans so that's the obese Gene

it's the it's the fat Gene fat Gene

meaning Gene from fat

that lets your brain know how much fat

you have and is that possible to to be

not just on or off but slightly

defective so some people can just get

a little bit more hungry than others or

is it a binary thing where it can be on

or off so leptin

for whatever odd reason

is pretty much binary so if you have a

little bit of it you're fine if you have

none of it you're not however there is

obviously there is obviously a pathway

leptin signals to the brain which

signals to something else and there is a

another Gene that I looked that I looked

at called mc4r

it's part of the pathway it's part of

the same fat sensing pathway that is a

rheostat it's like a thermostat and so

for example we have found thousands of

different mutations in this in this Gene

and you can imagine that depending on

the severity of the dysfunction some are

completely dead some are 70 functional

you we can predict

how much someone will eat in a test

Buffet meal scenario

um if they have a 50 functioning Gene

versus a zero functioning Gene and we

now know that point three percent

okay in this country at least so point

so 200 000 people in the UK a million

people in the United States will carry

mutations in this mc4r Gene okay making

them more likely to end up with obesity

so that at 18 years old at 18 years old

if you carry a mutation in this nc4r

Gene you are on average

18 kilos heavier 40 pounds heavier at 18

years old on average and that's 200 000

people in this country so it's it's not

super common right it's still 99.7 of

the people's body weights not determined

by this but there are a lot of people's

body weights who are dependent on this

specific Gene but it is a it is a

tunable system so it's a little bit or a

lot means that you're either slightly

heavier or a lot heavier to does our

brain like us losing weight I I did the

keto diet recently for about two months

and why did you do it why'd you come off

I did it because I wanted to okay this

is interesting it shows how much of a

neanderthal I am

um I I thought I was allergic to gluten

hey so I thought I'll cut out all of the

things that have gluten in them and I'll

try that and so I then watched this

video online and it talked about the

keto diet so I thought oh that sounds

good and I this guy had lost so much

weight doing it so I gave it a try now I

lost so much weight more weight than

I've ever lost in my life like I extreme

um I did it for about eight weeks I lost

about a stone in weight the reason I

came off it

was because it was hard it was hard in a

in a simple word it was difficult and I

I don't know I felt like I was fighting

against something

how long ago did you come off it and the

crucial information piece of information

I'm interested in is have you gained any

weight back

um 45 days ago none of your business I'm

joking

no um I gained so much weight back I

gained I didn't just gain the stone I'd

lost I think I gained a little bit more

back I think I gained a stone and a bit

back uh I mean I'm not in bad shape but

like for me I went from being absolutely

lean like I'm ready for Men's Health to

being like back to being like you know

like um I'd say athletic now but I

gained back the way I lost and more

so this is why I asked the question

about the brain my brain didn't seem to

be on board with me it didn't seem

taught the best for us and it seemed to

want to return me back to my

default base state

your brain everyone's brains hates it

when they lose weight it doesn't matter

your starting point you could start from

a point where you are Athletic versus

someone who's not athletic Couch Potato

type type phenotype the moment you lose

a little bit of weight we're talking

even a few pounds I'm not even talking

you're talking about a stone even if you

lost five pounds what happens in your

brain is your brain is used to you

carrying you or me carrying a certain

amount of weight the moment your weight

starts to go down as an adult it goes

hey oh you know this is a big flag comes

up this reduce this is reducing my

chance of survival this is what the

brain thinks and so what it does is it

begins to use strategies not conscious

nothing to do with our brain anything

like that to drag us back up Kicking and

Screaming to where we were before first

of all it makes us hungry okay so so it

makes us it makes us hungry and second

it actually very very secretively lowers

your metabolism ever so slightly so that

even without think even eating exactly

the same thing you are now storing more

than you're burning even eating exactly

the same thing part of the strategy to

get you back up to where you were before

so once you were on that keto diet and

we can debate how it talk about how it

works and whether it's useful but once

it's on the you're on the diet your

weight goes off you're able to keep it

but you said man I can't do this and so

you stop and the moment you stop your

brain goes comes back on and starts

dragging you back up this is going to be

true for pretty much every single diet

that is that is out there the moment you

stop the diet

the weight will come back on eventually

why does my brain hate me

it's what look this is the brain you

have to remember

um that that's what's kept us alive I

mean we have lived aside from probably

the last 40 years

we probably most of the time never had

enough food now clearly over the past

hundred years we've had sufficient food

compared to beyond that but you know as

well as I do when you turn on the TV and

watch Only Fools and Horses from the

from from the 70s or whatever you know

people are all skinny they think oh no

they're not skinny they don't look

skinny they look they look normal weight

for the time that they're that they're

there whereas we have clearly over the

past 40 years now have too much food so

this is now a different problem okay

that we have too much food and so our

brain is trying to respond to this

environment but it's responding in a

natural fashion because what used to

happen was because there was not a food

when there's food there you made sure

you ate it otherwise why would you why

would you not do that right so

we have a brain that's wired for a feast

famine environment Feast fam and feast

famine the problem is we live in a feast

Feast environment at the moment and

that's the issue we have a mild adopted

brain for a feast Feast environment and

this is because of how you set up

Society because of supermarkets fridges

preservatives that keep food lasting for

longer and Foods more available and

cheaper than before it's more processed

Etc right so so this is true now now

without going all food Nazi I mean you

have to remember that the all of

whatever you just said preservatives you

know pickling cooking you start with

that then you say oh we're gonna do

highly processed foods we're going to do

pre-packaged foods frozen foods

microwave Foods etc etc supermarkets it

has kept us alive okay we're seven and a

half billion people and Counting we need

to feed all these people and this is

fine the problem is we've now got to the

point where the efficiencies the scales

of efficiency and how fruit production

is now so high we can now get calories

have never been cheaper so this is this

is the

um the the the the the issue today you

can on uh um in this country for example

in the UK people have calculated that

you can get about a thousand calories

for 90p now how good are those calories

what the quality of the food or those

calories we're not talking we're just

talking pure calories because of

efficiencies of scale calories have

never been cheaper and we don't have to

go run after an antelope in order to get

in order to get the calories this has

kept us alive until it is killing us

which is now over the past 10 years that

have been an important inflection point

in in human history you know previously

we never had enough food whereas now

since the the past 10 years more people

are dying from over nutrition

than under nutrition and over nutrition

in a bad way because you can be you can

have loads of calories but still be

malnourished because you're eating the

wrong kind of foods and can you believe

it we are now in a world where there are

more people dying because they eat too

much than because they because they

don't eat enough is the worldwide Trend

that we are getting

skinnier or fatter we are getting fatter

as a worldwide Trend and and and true

that the the problems are more obvious

at the moment in higher income countries

okay because

because either they studied more and be

the kind of food that's available but

you are good but what is the goal of of

um of a country that is less developed

than us for example they want to pull

their people out of poverty they want to

make sure that their poor people don't

die of starvation they want to make sure

that fast food and and good food you

know and crab food are available to

everybody uh there as well now the

problem is the moment that happens you

don't switch from being dying of under

nutrition and starvation to then now

dying of over nutrition so we are at

that infection point where the whole

world very soon will get into a severe

obesity problem and and we do need to

fix the food environment in order to fix

that do you consider it to be an

emergency it is definitely an emergency

oh it is definitely an emergency and

it's an emergency because because

let's ask the question why is it a

problem to have obesity why is it a

problem to carry too much fat okay so so

that doesn't you might think well it's

obvious well is it because the the there

are issues with gravity when you're too

heavy um arthritis Mobility sleep apnea

you can't breathe at night but that is

that isn't what kills us okay if what

kills us is all the diseases that are

associated with obesity diabetes high

blood pressure certain cancers etc etc

that is what kills us okay heart disease

and and so it is an emergency because

with obesity at a population level as it

goes up then you have millions upon

millions of people

um that that end up you you know with

diseases so the the estimate is that

direct cost to the NHS direct costs for

treating obesity and related illness is

six to seven billion a year okay pounds

that's the direct but the moment you

take into account the bro economy days

sick

etc etc it's estimated we are running at

27 billion a year just on economic

effects on on Obesity so it is an

emergency because because many people

are getting ill many people are dying

you know

and actually it makes economically no

sense we have to fix the Obesity because

then we would save ourselves a lot a lot

of money so let's talk about how we fix

the Obesity how we burn fat and how we

all get into a healthy weight now I know

you think that bmis are largely [ __ ]

and unhelpful is that an accurate

description of your opinion

okay look before I I don't want to end

up um with my colleagues throwing shoes

at me so I think

awesome so BMI for those of you who

don't know BMI is obviously

um your weight in kilograms divided by

your height a meter Square it's a way of

controlling for your height and your

weight

um now on a population level okay it is

actually a remarkably effective why

because a it's free to measure it

doesn't cost anything

um and on average in a population sadly

um the higher your BMI the more fat you

carry and we know that the more fat you

carry the more likely you are to be

unhealthy okay on a population on a

population level all this is true you

might argue rugby players different this

and this is this is true

on an individual level however

it is not particularly useful for for

your for your health other than tracking

your weight it's about as useful as that

because each of us are different shapes

different sizes

can carry different amounts of fat uh

can carry different amounts of fat

safely so so that is the problem with uh

um with with obesity right it's it

depends on who you are

um how heavy is heavy before it actually

begins to actually influence your

influence your health

so let's talk about food a little bit

um I'm

currently

doing some kind of version of

intermittent fasting right detail

details version well I just don't let's

call it time restricted okay yep right

you know

um basically I don't I I don't have

breakfast I actually don't really get

hungry at breakfast to be completely

honest with you I tend to get hungry a

bit later in the day so I haven't eaten

anything today and God forbid uh it's 3

30 p.m

um wow I know but I just don't I just

don't seem to get hungry yet

um and then I read your book and in

chapter three of Gene eating you talk

about front loading your food in the day

now I was like [ __ ] hell you know I'm

trying my best here Giles and they told

me to eat later in the day to skip

breakfast we don't need it and then to

time restrict your eating and then I

read your book and then it says front

load your food have a big breakfast

medium lunch small dinner

what's the truth okay so so that is the

I mean I think most societies have a

similar saying the Chinese have a

similar saying as as this as well so

um a couple of things I was saying eat

like a king at breakfast a prince a

Princess lunch and a pauper at um at

dinner time and so the Chinese have have

a similar have a similar saying because

I think people kind of work this out now

there is some truth to this but then

I'll come back and explain what the

truth or the truth is so the sum truth

is that actually clearly we are

metabolically our metabolism is highest

during the day because we have to avoid

becoming food and we have to look for

food okay so so that's the thing whereas

at night when we're asleep our

metabolism drops so if you eat your

biggest meal at night

and then a couple of hours later you go

to sleep then clearly you you are

loading your calories and then going to

sleep which is in storage mode whereas

if you eat your biggest meal during the

day you have the whole day left in order

to burn it now homeostasis it does

balance itself out so it's not the

driver of obesity but undoubtedly it

will make a little bit of a difference

there okay but then a friend of mine

um Alex Johnstone Alexandra Johnstone

Professor Alexander Johnstone up at the

Robert Institute in in Aberdeen just

published the study I think probably

only three months ago okay which is very

interesting so what she did was she got

um people

um a cohort of people and got them to

eat exactly the same number of calories

they supplied the food so they knew what

they were going to do okay and they did

it either by front loading all the

calories at breakfast or back loading

all the calories at dinner but everyone

I ate exactly the same thing and then

everyone then swapped okay so everyone

did the did the whole thing and what she

found was that there was no different

reference in body weight change whether

or not you were eating most of your

calories at breakfast or most of your

calories at dinner it was the total

amount of energy during the day

but

the difference was if you ate more at

breakfast you felt less hungry during

the day

then you if you ate more at dinner so

while if you

ate exactly the same Foods thought at

breakfast or dinner dinner or lunch it

doesn't actually matter but for some

people it may very well be easier to

have the big breakfast because it means

particularly if they love food in

particular because it means they get

less hungry throughout the day so that

is the truth that is the Nuance but does

that mean you know I've got a first-hand

experience in this that if I'm not

hungry throughout the day then when it

gets to midnight

I'll be thinking Hmm no but it doesn't

matter right because because it's not

like it's not like well it depends

depends how much if you suddenly ate

3000 calories at dinner then then then

maybe they're no I'm not talking dinner

I'm talking midnight snack

so I I think the reality the the reality

is you have to eat when you have to eat

uh is is the answer now if you were

trying to lose weight so if you were

actively trying to lose weight because

you are active because if one was

actively overweight then you might begin

to think about when you wanted to eat

more I would probably cut the calories

from your dinner rather than cutting the

calories from your breakfast but if you

are surviving during the day and this is

true about many people right nurses

doctors who work shifts firemen police

police officers whatever they do you've

got to eat when you gotta eat so these a

lot of these um pieces of advice are

fine until they smack into the reality

of Life your job and what you actually

and what you actually do but it's

general advice for the general person

who isn't constrained by night shifts or

anything like that eating late

closer to when you fall asleep is bad is

not going to help you lose weight

correct okay everyone says this you know

Tim Spector said this to me I need I

need people to keep saying it and then I

will cancel the midnight Buffet

but I love my midnight Buffet too yeah I

know but every so often only not every

night yeah yeah not all the time you

know five nights a week

um

your general stance on keto you know

much of your feedback and much of your

writing is more about how it's

unsustainable

um is that is that accurate well it

depends so so the original keto diet

keto in its original form was oddly

enough it was designed for epilepsy okay

that was what it was originally designed

to do it's only in its most I would say

the past 10 years that suddenly people

have realized there was a weight loss

element to it as you as you personally

firsthand uh actually actually found it

so I think the original versions of Keto

were actually very very very

unsustainable because of the really

super high levels of fat that were

involved they were unpalatable and and

and and with absolutely almost zero

carbs they were very unpalatable they

they're difficult to stick to if you

have inflammation related diseases is

keto often a diet that's recommended if

there's like inflammation related

depends it depends where the

inflammation is so so if it's

information in a gut you need a

different type of diet is so so that

there is no one for a given information

right so it then it depends on the diet

that you're actually actually own but

keto in this extreme form is difficult

to stick to because you know because of

the really really high fat to protein

ratio so it was designed for epilepsy

because I think there was some reason

just to say that when you force your

brain to use ketones which is rather

than glucose which is where the keto

diet comes from it reduces the incidence

of epilepsy so leave that aside but what

then people found as well is that with

the keto diet you ended up feeling

Fuller

and so more satiated and so therefore

you lost weight because you ended up

eating eating less weight sorry eating

less food but also because you were

having less carbs then it was easier to

control your blood glucose so keto I

think is probably good

safe thing for some type 2 diabetics

looking to try and a milder form of Keto

because now there's different types of

Keto that you can stick to to try and

control your blood glucose if you're

type 2 diabetic

just make sure you don't eat

as much of the fat as animal fat trying

to have more olive oil and fish fat and

vegetable fat rather than animal fat

then there probably is a case to be made

for for for keto not as extreme for a

healthy uh individual such as yourself

you found how difficult it was to

actually stick to it I think that's

probably a case to be made for

introducing a little bit of

carbohydrates but high fiber

carbohydrates in there so that makes it

more sustainable

the issue is and I think one needs to be

careful is certainly in its most extreme

forms they haven't been many studies

looking at the safety say over five ten

years if you stick to keto all the time

how healthy is it for you and so that's

the only

um caveat that I want that I want to

point out the studies need to be done as

it becomes more popular the studies will

be done because there are many people

millions of people who swear by keto and

um and inherently as long as you don't

eat too much animal fat only and so you

have vegetable fat and fish fat and

olive oil and things as well then it can

be relatively healthy

you reference there that

um the protein makes you feel Fuller

that's that seems to be a really

important point that if you have a high

protein diet you're going to end up

eating less which will result in weight

loss right in what order does like

protein fats and carbohydrates make you

feel fullest

so a calorie of protein makes you feel

Fuller than a calorie of fat than a

calorie of carbohydrate in that order so

and and the reason behind that is

because protein is chemically the most

complex compared to fat and carbs

so so it takes the longest to a digest

and be metabolized so and because it

takes the longest any food which travels

further down the gut

makes you feel Fuller that's just a

general it's a it's a general

um um thing of how how our body works

so that's the first thing so protein

takes longer to digest travels further

down the gut you feel Fuller but then

not only that protein gets digested into

amino acids amino acids transfer across

the gut wall into our blood and they

again go to our cells and organs where

they then metabolized now during the

metabolism stage it then takes a lot of

energy to metabolize protein compared to

fat and carbs so for example

for every 100 calories of protein that

you eat

we are only ever able to use 70 calories

so 30 of the protein calories we eat

are spent dealing with protein it takes

money to make money right and so at 30

so protein calories everywhere this is

not reflected on the side of the package

protein calories everywhere are 30 wrong

just off just just just off the bat

because of the amount of energy it

actually takes to sort out to sort out

Protein that's another reason why it

makes you feel Fuller

super interesting that point about

calories obviously I talked to Tim

Specter a lot about that and um it

really is a kind of a narrative Buster

that calories are not accurate

so look I I I I speak a lot about

calories I understand that 200 calories

of chips is twice the portion of 100

calories of chips

but so is 200 grams of chips twice the

portion of 100 grams of chips and no one

is trying to compare 200 grams of chips

to 200 grams of carrots broadly speaking

that's what it is the calorie is a very

useful tool

um to give you a general idea how much

you are eating during the day that is

true okay how much you're eating but it

tells us nothing zero about the quality

of food you're eating about how much

protein how much fiber what type of fat

how much sugar the calorie tells you

absolutely nothing so it gives you a

piece of information how much food

you're eating and that's yes I can see

how that could be important but I would

like to see a world we live in where we

were more concerned about the quality of

food we are feeding ourselves our kids

other people they're necessarily just

the pure caloric content because I've

got a friend that said to me won't name

him but he got a friend that said to me

that um you can basically as long as you

count the calories you can eat whatever

you like so you can have the Domino's

Pizza you can have this but you just

gotta make sure the calories are under

your sort of calorific allowance and

then it's it's all good

so now if your depends what your

calorific allowance is and it will

clearly if you stick to a purely calorie

counting diet

of say 2 000 calories and you stuck to

that religiously okay you probably the

chances are you probably would lose

weight because we probably burnt burnt

more than that but how healthy would you

be I think is probably the question

whereas if you had a healthier diet but

a 2 500 calories of a healthier diet

would you would you be healthier and

that's that's the more important

question I think you've asked because

there's two things you're trying to look

at you're trying to look at the number

on the scale and that probably would

work or you're trying to look at your

health your blood glucose levels your

blood pressure your ability to be

energetic during the day you know how

fast you want to run whatever it is

whatever metric can you lift your

grandkids up whatever you want to do and

so I think it's a it's a it is a measure

clearly it is I'm not I'm not denying it

that it is not a measure but it is a

very blunt tool and I don't think it is

measuring what we need to measure which

is the quality of our food what is

calorific availability in fact reading

your work is the first time I've even

heard that phrase before but it seems to

be to be important so calorific or

caloric availability is the amount of

calories that you can extract from a

food versus the total number of calories

in a food so the example which I cite in

in both books actually is if you had 100

calories of sugar just just pure white

sugar you would probably end up getting

98 nearly 100 calories out of it nearly

100 okay because sugar is our base fuel

we chop once we absorb it there's no

digestion that's involved the one

example which I give is imagine if you

ate sweet corn corn on the cob

and then you looked in the loo the next

day it is quite clear you haven't

absorbed most of the sweet corn because

you can see it okay but if you take

sweet corn desiccated convert into

cornmeal make cornbread or corn tortilla

do something else with it suddenly

exactly the same source of food gives

you a different amount of calories okay

but yet it starts on corn it's exactly

the same thing so that's caloric

availability you can start with a

sourced food but depending on what you

do to that food different calories are

available there's nothing wrong with

cuantotia there's nothing wrong with

cornbread and there's nothing wrong with

sweet corn I'm just saying that the

calorie counts make no sense because

you will extract different amounts of

calories from the food even though we're

working with exactly the same food

that's crazy so if I I had um call on

the cob

like you I'm just mimicking your action

there um and then I had a corn tortilla

yes if both of them sell in the package

this is a hundred calories the truth is

my body might with the corn on the cob

only have

50 of the calories available because of

the

the nature of the the food versus if I

had the corn tortilla Which says 100

calories in the package as well

I might get 80 calories from it yes

so so let me give you another example

celery is probably something that's easy

and and we've actually measured this so

if you actually look at a just a typical

medium-sized stick that you might get

with some buffalo wings or something

like that okay of of celery raw okay

people say that celeries have an uh has

a negative calories not really but it's

got only six calories it's nearly

negative okay for that if you cook the

celery

chop it up put into a stew whatever the

hell you're gonna do with it

that six calories becomes 30 calories

because you've cooked it exactly the

same food and this time I'm just cooking

it all right because the cooking you can

almost consider cooking as an extension

of your stomach it does some of the

digestion for you right because you're

cooking it but it's gonna even stew it's

just an hour two hours and then you eat

it so then all that energy the reason

why we only extract six calories from

from a raw celery is you know it's CR is

99 fiber and water and so you

whereas if you cook it then what happens

is some of the fiber breaks down we're

able to do it that's a class another

classic example exactly the same food

you cook it suddenly six times the

number of calories you get from it it's

an extreme example

exactly because I could go to a

supermarket and I could get a um

a six calorie stick of celery it could

literally say on the package six

calories I take it home I think great

I've got six calories left in my my

calorie deficit today I pop it in the

pan I stew it I eat it 30 calories out

of nowhere correct that's false

advertising correct

I'm gonna get myself into trouble no but

it's true that that is exactly that is

exactly true that's crazy that's why I

don't think that's

that's why I don't think calories are

the most useful thing to be to be

measuring because they shift they're

moving they're a moving Target which is

fine as long as we know what what what

we're expecting but to but if you are

religious calorie counter once again you

have to do you in order to so some

people do that and it's and for them it

is a useful strategy to keep the weight

off and be healthier I'm not going to be

back on you you do what you you do what

you want but you have to understand that

religiously counting it means that

depending on what type of calories you

eat that no matter how religious you are

you're going to be absorbing different

amounts of calories anyway

but again as you as you've highlighted

there the positive upside to that is it

gives people something to measure yes

which is relative yes and and that's the

benefit for them that if they're

measuring every day and it's the same

food they're measuring it's all relative

um and there's some benefit to them

because obviously people do are very um

passionate that they've had great

results from calorie counting in their

lives it's something to measure but most

people well many people who calorie

count just to be clear means they they

stick to eating the same thing which

they've done roast chicken whatever it

is but eat fewer calories of the roast

chicken dinner now that does work

because what you're doing is you're now

reducing the portion size of what you're

eating whereas if you're saying that

wait a minute I'm going to switch meals

entirely and go from eating 2 000

calories of chicken but I'm now going to

have 16 1 600 calories of sugar that's a

stupid example but imagine that was the

case okay then calorie counting is not

going to work because you could be

chicken is better for you than sugar and

and so and so that is an extreme example

but few people do that but I I

highlighted only to make sure people

understand it understand the limitations

and caveats of calorie counting quick

one one of our sponsors of this podcast

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I'd love to hear your responses if you

do give it a try you know I never really

usually pick the chocolate flavored

heels my favorite are the banana flavor

I love The Salted Caramel flavor but

recently I think I in part blame Jack in

my team who's obsessed with the

chocolate flavor heals I've started

drinking the chocolate flavor heels for

the first time and I absolutely love

them my life means that I sometimes

disregard my diet and it's funny that's

part of the reason why I've had a lot of

guests on this podcast recently that

talk about diet and health and those

kinds of things because I am trying to

make an active effort to be more healthy

to lose a little bit of weight as well

but to be more healthy and the role that

he'll plays in my life is it means that

in those moments where sometimes I might

reach for

you know junk Foods

having an option that is nutritionally

complete that is high in fiber that is

incredibly high in protein that has all

the vitamins and minerals that my body

needs within Arm's Reach that I can

consume on the go is where he always

been a game changer for me

I started to believe I think as I said

you earlier maybe 12 months ago maybe a

bit more 24 months ago that I was gluten

free and I believed that because I I'd

eaten some things and then I had like a

bad gut reaction

um some pains bit of bloatedness and and

then when I didn't eat those things that

had gluten in them that kind of pain and

bloatedness went away so my genius brain

assumed self-diagnosed that I am gluten

intolerant and then I marched through

the world for the next two years being

that kind of like pretentious [ __ ]

that's asking if there's gluten and

everything and you know interrogating

the ingredients of everything I put in

my mouth to try and avoid this thing

called gluten

now from reading your work

I've started to consider that I'm not in

fact a genius that I'm in fact an idiot

and that I'm probably not gluten

intolerant

um and that because you look at society

and you look at packaging and you look

at signage on restaurants and on menus

they they have gluten-free everywhere

now everything is like gluten-free you

go in the supermarket aisles it's

gluten-free pasta gluten-free this

which creates the impression that where

humans are just not meant to eat gluten

and we're all gluten intolerant or 50 of

us are how much truth is there to that

so one percent of the human species are

celiacs okay and they are completely

allergic to gluten and and you don't you

want to stay away from gluten okay like

literally that's they get to the point

where it's so bad that their guts don't

work anymore and can't absorb food

carefully and so it can kill you so

that's no joke and so gluten-free was

originally designed to cater to people

with celiac disease one percent of the

human species now three to four percent

of humans and they're slightly more

difficult to measure are probably

genuinely gluten intolerant and this

could be maybe from a little bit farty

till some severe gastrointestinal

distress

um and but genuinely so and probably

it's best for them to at least not have

a big bolus of gluten but the rest of us

are not but yet 25 as a as a market 25

of us buy gluten-free at any one point

so it's become profitable to sell

gluten-free they now label rice as

gluten-free rice doesn't have gluten

never had gluten okay okay okay from

from it and so they label rice as

gluten-free thinking that it's some

product it's not a product it's just

rice

so I think the issue here is it's been a

boon for people with celiacs uh for

celax I've spoken to people with celiac

disease they go we've never had it this

good okay because before you have to go

you have to be really concerned now

every place you go to the moment you say

gluten-free you get a gluten-free meal

and everything and everything is fine

the only downside is some people look at

them you know but but so but that is a

classic example of of people

thinking that it's healthy but can I

just once again I'll stop asking you a

question soon but

did you actually go and get yourself

diagnosed about whether or not you are

gluten intolerant because it doesn't

mean that you're not because you could

be

by the way you can always ask me

questions and to answer your question

yes I got diagnosed by Dr Stephen

Bartlett right

in the comfort of my own home

but my brain my brain wrote out the slip

and made the diagnosis have you gone

back to eating some gluten yes and

nothing has happened you know what's

really interesting something after I

finish the keto diet yeah fad uh keto

diet I then tried a little bit of gluten

and everything was okay

it was it was I had a little bit of

glutes in it I didn't really notice any

any issue so and I was wondering if like

keeping myself off gluten or keeping

myself off something for those two

months had almost restored my my gut in

some respect that I could have a little

bit of gluten again

because I I kind of I don't know

it was interesting but the issue with

gut is that many so for example I will

have exactly the same symptoms of what

you just said bloated blah blah all

these things when I have lactose I'm

lactose intolerant because it is

a food substance that influences the gut

so I think the issue is I wouldn't

put out of hand some thing which you've

had with your gut it could be actually

real is it necessarily gluten was it uh

was it lactose was it something else so

so the problem is and the reason why

people immediately think gluten is

because that's what's in front of them

but it could be a number of other things

which cause your gut just for a little

bit or you could just reading the wrong

type of chilies right and and and that

that could also do it but the moment it

begins to influence your guts it has

broadly speaking the same phenotype same

the same presentation whether it's

gluten lactose or Mexican chilies so

that's that's interesting so you're

saying you know one to four percent of

people really do have an intolerance

roughly yes and then 25 ish percent of

us buy gluten-free assuming we are you

know I either assume you are gluten

intolerant or think it's healthier I

don't think it's healthier okay we think

gluten's a bad thing yeah is gluten a

bad thing if you can handle gluten no if

you eat too much of it that's always a

bad thing but no and let's put it this

way as as a gluten-free donut is still a

donut

whether or not it has gluten or not you

know so there are things which are

inherently fried and and are have more

calories more caloric availability and

there are things which are inherently

less whether or not they have gluten

what about you said you said lactose

intolerance then you're lactose

intolerant and in your book you say that

65 of adults are lactose intolerant

that's correct that's crazy that's a

huge huge majority that's a huge

majority because the mutation

is lactose tolerance so and so under

normal circumstances so lactose is a

sugar like glucose like fructose

but mammals obviously all mammals can

drink milk as babies we are mammals

um all mammals can obviously drink milk

and absorb lactose as babies but then

most mammals including 65 of human

beings become lactose intolerant the

moment they become adults

I guess that's a question of why and

then and then how why probably because

if University aged Johnny is clamped

onto your boob and there's limited space

there's no room for baby Johnny and so

you need to encourage a rapidly growing

mammal get away go eat solid food so

that other babies can actually get on I

think that probably is the real reason

to encourage animals to do the more

difficult thing of finding solid food so

you make yourself lactose intolerant how

Okay so uh lactase is the enzyme that

breaks down lactose and this happens in

your small intestine and it turns it's

turned on when we're babies but then as

we become older something else comes and

shuts off lactase like in me and so I

can't drink a lot of milk but then

around 7 500 years ago or so people

people have actually worked this out a

mutation occurred

near this Gene linear lactase which

prevents the shutting off of the gene

okay and so 85 percent of white northern

European Caucasians for example

can drink milk as adults every single

one of them has exactly that same

mutation that occurred 7 500 years ago

now there are other populations

throughout the world there's certain

pastoral populations in Africa and

certain populations

um particularly Those Who had who had

goats and sheep and stuff who then had

their own independent way of dealing

with drinking milk because it was a rich

source of food so if it was available

you were able to to to to drink it but

so that is the mutation whereas for the

vast majority of us Chinese people for

example you know we didn't end up

drinking milk as as adults

um and so we never had that we never had

that mutation and so most of us are

lactose intolerant as adults

and these things we can find out how

does one go about finding out about my

genetic predispositions to certain foods

and diets so you can okay not every

single food has a prediction for genetic

wise but if you take any of the direct

to Consumer genetic tests that are

available they will test all of the

known they'll they'll definitely test

lactose intolerance your ability to

handle alcohol okay I I know mine your

ability to to metabolize caffeine so

these are all individual genes so it's

predictable so some people can drink a

lot of coffee other people can't some

people can drink a lot of alcohol other

people can't I'm probably in the middle

for alcohol and I can't drink any milk

so all of those are predictable and you

can get from any of the genetic tests

that are there the problem I guess with

these genetic tests is they make

predictions beyond the stuff that are

predictable they say that oh we can

predict that you'll respond to a

Mediterranean diet for example I'm

Mediterranean diet is a whole diet it's

it's got like whatever 200 Foods how is

it going to predict whether or not you

respond to it and so I think some of the

genetic tests overstep their Mark in

trying to predict what they can predict

but some things are predictable milk

caffeine alcohol have you done any

genetic tests I have for for a um uh

23andMe DNA fit uh Circle I I've just

done them for some for papers uh

newspapers and writing reviews for

others just for personal

um interest just just to find out what

it is what was your favorite

because I know people are going to be

listening and they're going to be going

you know I want to take action so

where's step one and I have to be honest

my girlfriend texted me yesterday asking

me this exact question so the minute

this conversation is done I'm gonna say

I've just spoken to this genius from

Cambridge and now for you babe and I've

got you the answer

she texted me yesterday asking me for a

good uh DNA genetic test that will help

her understand diet

help her understand her diet yeah like

her like tolerance to certain foods and

predispositions okay so there are many

different tests out there testing

different things

so um

there is an advantage to going with size

like 23andMe obviously I'm not paid by

them it has an advantage to size because

they have tens hundreds of millions even

people's data and so as with most things

the more data you have and people

constantly interact with the app the

more you can

improve your product the more you can

then improve your predictions but

23andMe only tests a limited number of

the genes in your in in yourself okay so

in other words we have three billion

base pairs in our DNA each each

individual Mark a 23 and me I'm going to

get this wrong I'll probably test about

2 million or so okay of the three

billion whereas if you go to some other

companies now that now in effect

sequence your whole genome or at least

all your genes

so you get a lot more information

then they get more information the

problem there however is a is more

expensive but B fewer people have done

it and so they haven't yet had the time

to begin to tweak their algorithms and

their predictions to get a more

optimized optimized prediction so that's

the problem right okay whereas 23 me is

cheap so that's probably a good place to

start to ask certain questions look I am

happy to to like literally literally

happy to give you a better prediction

than 23me's algorithms because I can

um for for that for for example but they

probably give a pretty uh helpful look

about lactose alcohol you know and

whether or not you may or may not be uh

um gluten intolerant they give some

pretty good uh predictions there

okay I'm gonna do that whatever yeah I

really need to do I really I've been

I've been thinking about it for a long

time so I'm gonna pull the trigger um

it's quite remarkable that I haven't yet

um you did a documentary called clean

eating

which is um predominantly about

plant-based eating it wasn't predominant

I did look at plant-based I also looked

at The Alkali diet and I also looked at

gluten-free so let's talk about those

last two then so

um plant-based diet I I heard that there

was a lot of adverse reaction

from some people in some communities

regarding the plant-based component of

that documentary is that true or false

that is true that is true and and the

reason there was a problem was look I I

hope you think

speaking to me that I'm a reasonable

person I speak with some Nuance I don't

think so what we did was was a plot

based has taken on a different meaning

today okay based on the supermarket so

what have you but when I did the program

plant-based meant a far more restrictive

version of veganism plant-based meant

that you ate you ate minimally processed

foods hardly any sugar and you ate at

Whole Foods only it's fine it's a

perfectly healthy it's a perfectly

healthy diet as long as you take the

right supplements the problem is

the plant-based people become vegan or

plant-based for many different reasons

ethical reasons environmental reasons

and health okay all three or or a mix of

the three the the one issue I took with

the plant-based community in that

program is that they believed that there

was no safe dose of animal protein okay

which meant that even eating a bit of

egg white the moment you started eating

a bit of egg whites it begins to kill

you slowly in your you know because I

says that's the most ridiculous thing

I've ever heard in my life and it

doesn't support the science doesn't

support it we eat too much meat the

science does support that okay but

eggs okay

um um you know people vegetarian you're

calling vegetarians they're killing

themselves because they're eating eggs

or something that was what I took them

up on and they thought that because I

was challenging I said there is a safe

dose of animal protein we do need to eat

less meat that's but that's they went

after me they went after me oh my god

um it was it was amazing in fact the

program has probably gone around the

world probably four or five times and

the reason why I know is because every

time it pops up in a new you know BBC

doesn't tell me every time it pops up in

a new country I wake up to my inbox on

my social media and suddenly I got a

rush of hate ah the Canadian vegans have

seen it again oh look it's in Australia

oh the Swedish vegans hello you know and

and and so and it's just this really odd

Evangelical Evangelical I want to point

out I know this you know please it's the

people that believe there is no safe

dose of animal-based protein clearly

there is a safe dose

um there are different reasons for doing

things but don't say silly things that's

what that's what got me into trouble

with with the Evangelical vegans because

I've watched some sort of plant-based

vegan documentaries on Netflix and I

come away from them thinking Christ I

should never eat any meat ever again for

a variety of reasons actually the

reasons that I think they tend to lead

with are are more about the impact upon

your health and your diet I think that

that's a much more

compelling

um self for most people especially for

people in in parts of the world whether

they have

another set of problems they're dealing

with first which is trying to feed

themselves period

um but as it relates to health and

veganism plant-based diets what are some

of the stereotypes there that that

you've highlighted one that there is a

quantity of meat products that is

healthy what are the general stereotypes

there that are they need a dressing so a

couple of things that that is it healthy

to be on a plant-based diet let's just

deal with that first okay and I think as

long as you do it carefully and think

about it and take the right supplements

it is you have to supplement when you're

on a plant-based diet okay you have to

supplement certain things vitamin B12

iodine iodine pardon me

um

you got to watch your iron you've got to

watch your calcium but you can do it

safely okay but I just

the biggest myth that I want to bust is

that it's a diet for everybody it is not

veganism plant-based in particular is a

diet for the privileged people who can

choose to do so I can choose to do it

you can choose to do it if you live in a

developing country okay or no no don't

ever stop that not even living in a

developing country if you are Mrs Smith

working two minimum wage jobs okay in

this country trying to feed your kids

are you really going to be concerned

with your pulses and making sure the

supplements are right to actually feed

your kids so they can have a vegan diet

no you want to feed your kids all right

and so what annoys me about about

Evangelical uh plant-based and vegan is

not that people do it people should do

what they want to do but what they do is

they make other people feel bad by not

having their diet particularly when they

don't have the choice to do it that is

what that is what annoys me I've seen

some videos on social media we've

probably all seen them of certain

activist groups that want people to stop

eating animal products going into

supermarkets and taking the lid off of

the milk and just pouring it all over

the floor in protest if you were sat

with one of those people that goes into

supermarkets pours milk on the floor and

goes into the meat section and does

whatever

and they came to you and they said what

should we be doing instead in your

perspective

to

move people away from animal products

for moral or environmental reasons

whatever it might be what would be a

better strategy based on what you've you

believe in what you've studied we do not

need

ever we need to move the curve we do not

need everyone to be vegan we we don't we

okay there are going to be people who

are vegan and that's perfectly fine I

want to stress I am not energy vegan in

the slightest but what we need as a

world is for everyone to eat 10 to 20

Less meat today

that is achievable

don't eat meat at lunch don't eat meat

on Fridays whatever it is don't even

mean once a week we need to eat 10 to 20

percent less meat and Less meat products

why

for for two different reasons that the