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Making moves, yeah, on a dance floor.

This means so, so much to me.

Everything I touched was turning into

gold. Everyone wanted a piece of me, and

How does an 18-19 year old deal with

that?

The height of success when it is like,

"Whoa." There's so much of the the human

part that's being unmet.

I felt like I was starting to make that

tick boxes. When I started to do a band

myself, and I started to do things that

just weren't in alignment, it was a

point where I had dark thoughts. I was

just like, "I can't live my life like

this." What people enjoyed from me was

music, and I realized that when I came

back to London. I feel like the kid

again, and trust me, the crowd are going

to go off when they hear something soon,

okay?

So, 22 years later, if you could whisper

in the ear of your 14-year-old self,

what would you whisper?

Listen, Craig.

Without further ado, I'm Steven

Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a

CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if

you are,

then please keep this to yourself.

Craig,

I've got some lyrics that I wanted to

recite to you, okay?

It's another day at school,

and he's just walking out the door.

Got his rucksack on his back, and his

feet dragging on the floor. Always late,

but when he's questioned, he can't think

of what to say. Hides the bruises from

the teachers hoping that they'd go away.

Even though his mom and dad, they both

got problems of their own, caught in a

catch-22, but he'd still rather be at

home. Cries himself to sleep and prays

when he wakes up things might have

changed, but everything's the same.

That's from your record, Johnny, from

2006. Yeah.

That was a

That was a That was a song that I had to

It was the first time, I think, kind of

opening up and and expressing

uh

experience that I felt I had maybe on a

lesser degree to a lot of other people

in my school.

I think at school, like in my my

secondary school, I had a a very I had a

beautiful upbringing. I I enjoyed life.

I was a playful kid. I loved music.

Um but secondary school, all boys

school, went to Belle Moore in

Southampton.

And for the majority of it, it was a it

was great times, but

when you come in in your early years,

and you've got the older

the older boys in there, and they're

like, "Yo,

you got £2 on you?" No, I haven't got

£2. They push you up against the wall.

"You got £2 on you?" Like, and then it's

not a case of like, if you've got the

money, it's like, "Let me check in your

pockets. Let me try and pull out the

pockets of your jeans."

So, as a lesser degree of the bullying,

I was like I was experiencing it

physically in the corridors. So, I kind

of So, when I was starting to write that

song, I was drawing from I had to go to

how did it feel when that was happening?

And it's only happening with one one one

guy in in at one period in the school.

So, I understood what bullying was. I

mean, that was I was

I was felt helpless. I couldn't He was 2

years older, stronger, could rough me up

if he really wanted to.

But then also, I was seeing other people

who were getting the a real I was

getting the psychological element, but

there was a deeper side of that

psychology of when

they say, "Tell the teacher, they'll

they'll deal with it."

This is the thing with bullying, is that

I agree with you

that it needs to be spoken to someone

you can confide in,

but sometimes that kind of very rush in,

told the teacher, they rush in, they

it's all out in the open.

I was seeing kids who would then have

the kid waiting outside of school for

them. Or it might be that they they're

they're they're being bullied by for

someone from a different school, even.

So, they'd be coming out to the school

gates thinking, "Okay, well, I'm on my

way home." No, it's about to start when

you get on the bus to go home.

So, the whole world is now outside of

school. You you've you've finished at

3:00 p.m., and and now it's it's

beginning for you. So,

it was I felt deeply that I needed to

write on that.

Um and like I said, my my mom and dad

had their own things going on um in

their lives. And and I spoke to my mom.

I I wrote the song when I was in

Southampton. I got like a a studio when

I was down there, and I played it to her

cuz I wanted her to also know that "Mom,

you've always been supportive to me.

Like, if if I needed to speak to you, if

I needed to say things, but

with bullying, there is an element where

you want to say something to the closest

person in your life, be it your family,

so your your mother or your father.

Um and I wanted to really portray that

in the song properly, but I wanted to

have that convo with my mom to let her

know I knew that you would have always,

if I needed to speak to you, would have

been there, cuz I do say, "You've got

your problems of your own, and I've

tried to tell you so many times, you're

not listening." And that is the case in

a lot of the cases of bullying that even

family aren't listening, so who do you

turn to?

So, um music has been that that song in

particular, I think it was a journey. My

grandma had passed away at the same

time. Um

it was a

I just needed to get some stuff off my

chest that I felt like this is past a

romantic love song. I need to

help people

in in a way that wasn't trying to

preach. It was just let me tell stories,

anecdotes, and I do it through music,

so. And you were bullied for your weight

back then, as well, right? Yeah, the

Well, the weight one was It's funny cuz

like you like to tell the story

differently when you're you're in a

slightly different place and position.

You'll you'll you'll tell it like, "No,

you know, it was

And I like I like everything about this

as well. You The your podcast for me has

always, and I wanted to tell you off the

bat,

what I love about you is that you're

bringing out so much so much depth in

people. And you you already know how

much love I got for you, anyway.

Appreciate

The the being overweight thing, now I

see it is actually, in hindsight, it

actually

it brought out so many thing wonderful

things that had to kind of that had been

repressed for a long period of time. But

at the time,

the social standard was you need to look

a certain way.

The the captain of the school football

team tended to be the one that that the

girls were interested in. You were the

you were the slightly overweight one

that they cry on your shoulder, tell you

all your problems, have this real you

have a real empathic relationship. You'd

be like, "What, this is connection. This

is real relationship," but we don't want

to take any further than that.

Well, I

he's the one. Look at the way he scored

the goal. Look at So, then you've

already got this early

imprint of what society expects of you,

and then you start trying to conform to

that. So, there were periods where I'd

look in the in

walking down the the high street, and

I'd look in the in the in the glass, the

reflection in the glass.

And I'd just be looking like

just feeling sorry for yourself, being

like, "The jeans ain't fitting quite

right, and the the jacket's not," and

you're getting

bigger sizes, and then you're just

feeling like, "I'm doing all the fit I'm

doing I I could run. I had some I had I

had some legs on me, you know?" And And

probably the boys at school would be

like, "Bro, you weren't a you weren't a

really fast runner. Which part do you

run at?" But I'll tell the story. I'm on

the mic now. Um I had So, I can move,

but I was just carrying a lot of weight.

Um but not unhealthy. I think there was

a point at that when it became unhealthy

was when I realized that my weight had I

was like 15, and I I think my weight had

was starting to get to I was 14, and my

weight had got to 14 and 1/2 stone. So,

I was starting to get

over my age and weight. I was And I was

like, "Maybe I need to slightly rein

this in a little bit, health-wise."

I ask these questions because and I

always start with childhood on this

podcast, and I I I've I've reflected on

this over and over again, and thought,

"Maybe I should start somewhere else,"

but I know from my own experiences that

my own like childhood traumas, or the

things that made me feel a bit invalid

or insecure, or felt feel shame when I

was younger,

ended up being like the the biggest

drivers in my life. So, when I sit here,

I'm trying to find out why, you know,

you got really into fitness, and why you

became, you know, who who you became. I

always start with like, "What were the

things when you were a kid that made you

feel shame, invalid, like you didn't fit

in?" And And those tend to be the

pathway to people's, you know, people's

greatness in a weird way. 100%. Like, it

it all your your you've got this this

period where your heart's open. You want

to you're experiencing life. You're a

child Like you said, you're a child

you're a puppy. You like you just you

don't know, and then all of a sudden you

get that, "Ooh, is that Oh, that Oh, I

can't do that. Oh, that's the way to

go." And then you're you're you're

you're getting all that you're

imprinting all these patterns that

only later you start to realize in in

your in your not even saying teenage

years, I think it's still, you know,

adolescent years at that point. But when

maybe in your 20s, start to unpack

things. Just if you if you're conscious,

you're starting to recognize that this

doesn't seem to line up with my truth.

And then in your 30s, for me, it was

like, "Whoa, I have to unpack all this

stuff that was like the overweight

thing,

because you're exactly right that it

started then.

And listen, I could I could eat sweets

like Cadbury's Boost bars were getting

eaten like crazy. I'd go to the the the

newsagents before I went to school to

get on the bus.

I'd be also selling chocolate as well.

So, I had like a little Yeah, yeah, I

was early days entrepreneur. Early days,

yeah. You'd find the the the chocolate

that was like had about 2 weeks left

before it was out of date, and you'd I'd

work that in my in my lessons. Like,

listen, I knew I had like from 9:00 till

11:00 before there was a there was a

tuck shop break. So, I could just set

the tone as to how much I want to sell

it for. Well, you want a a Mars bar for

Yeah, it's a £1.50. Like, "Well, I don't

want a £1.50." Okay, bro, then wait till

11:00 then. You can go to you can get it

for 35p, whatever it is. Oh, bro, you

you got a pound then. Okay, cool, a

pound.

I was The leverage was incredible.

So, I always had a had affiliation, and

one of my favorite movies is Willy Wonka

and the Chocolate Factory. So, I think

that set the tone, anyway. I've got a

bit of Augustus Gloop in me. I've got

the I think we've got all the myriad of

characters in that movie is me, and

ultimately Charlie, like, you know what

I mean? Um

So, yeah, so it just I've I've been

unpacking it a lot of those things, and

realizing that my my health streak

that I got went on at sort of in when I

was in sort of Miami sort of time, and

even slightly before that,

was all to do with this childhood thing

of I've got to the six-pack, the captain

of the school football team. It's funny

how like those things like you're like,

"Whoa."

And it wasn't even And then the crazy

thing with it is that

when I got into the music when I start

Rewind start blowing up, it was people

would just want to hear me sing. Yeah.

It was like they didn't care if my

stomach was here, there, six-pack,

one-pack, two-pack. And by the way,

everyone everyone has a six-pack

underneath. So, just know that.

Otherwise, your stomach's going to fall

out. So, if that's just the saving grace

for everyone. Don't worry about the fat

content and the fat There's a six-pack

underneath everyone. So, walk out in the

street and feel confident with that.

That's great. Let's not tell people

that. Um you you talked in those lyrics,

but then also then you talked about your

parents. Mhm. And you said there was I I

know again that's another dynamic

because those are the for most people

the most formative figures in their

life. What was the relationship with

your parents? And you said they had

things going on that that were kind of

it sounded like distracting them

from the things that were going on in in

your school life. Yeah, I mean

my mom and dad broke up got divorced

when I was eight.

Um

but the beautiful thing is that my that

my my dad always would come pick me up

on the weekends on a

a Sunday and we'd either be going to

like Potters Park like

go-karting or I'd be helping him fix a

kitchen

which I've got I used to say to my dad

like dad like what's coming to fix a

kitchen like like we And like it was

just I remember the the tools and the it

was dry and dusty and I'm thinking but I

loved those times with my dad. Yeah, he

really made an effort and I drives in

his car playing reggae music heavily

influenced everything that I was going

through.

And for my mom it was like she was

working 9:00 to 5:00. So, my grandma and

my mother would pretty much raising me.

My grandma would come pick me up from

school when my mom was at work. So,

I had a lot of feminine energy in my

life which I'm really grateful for cuz

it set the tone for how I wrote a lot of

my songs. Even 7 Days. I mean, I'm

saying making love at 17 years old

writing a song. Who's saying making love

on Wednesday? On Wednesday. I mean, you

listen to the songs now if they're not

using that kind of language. But it was

that I got There's a respect I had for

my for my for my mother, for my

grandmother.

And the fact that even my dad like I

didn't want him cussing out on record

like that. But just be like, "Yo, we

need to speak about this." So, I just I

felt I got a really good upbringing. But

at the same time I didn't have a great

model of

family life at home. I got a lot of

um feminine energy and female

uh love, intention, and care, and all

the things that you love from your mom

and grandma.

And then my dad was just like always had

my back and I've got you. But I never I

never seen them together.

So, I think again looking at

childhood um imprints and patterns is

how they affect you later on.

Relationship with with women was

something I've always been really close

to. But I also had never had a model of

how do you how do you stay together?

With like the the relationship part like

I'm a romantic. But if you look at your

relationships like they haven't really

worked out too well or you've been

guarded. And it's a journey of again of

is this story true? It's got There's a

point where you've got to be conscious

enough to actually ask that question and

it tends to knock on the door. And

intuition's always there sort of saying,

"We can have this convo if you want like

we can I'll I'll present you with the

books. I can present you with the click

on the right podcast to go to. I'll get

you to it we can unpack this. Someone

will inspire you to do that." But

there's also

what I've seen now and I feel I feel

very I feel

open enough to be apologetic for

relationships that

I I just I didn't I my heart was closed

off from the basis that not only from

the family modeling, but also your first

break heartbreak. So, for me it was like

I

my heart was so open and I had that

first heartbreak and it just went from a

kid who was had his heart open and

thought this is it and you're into me

and it's going to And then all of a

sudden it just crashed and I was like,

"Whoa." That feeling and I didn't I

never felt anything like that before

where it was like

I didn't know who to turn to. It was

like I felt that

after after early childhood

sweetheart breakup my my heart had kind

of closed down and I and I feel sorry

for

the the the girls and and women in the

last stages of my life have tried to

open my heart up. And that's all they

were trying to do. There's There's

There's things that went a bit toxic and

and went but I I have to own those

situations. There's a lot of guys that

like, "Yeah, well, she the the the girl

was like this or she was crazy." No, no,

no, no, forget all of that.

I walked into that and I stepped in with

a certain kind of energy and I gave off

a certain feeling and

especially if you're having sexual

relationships, there's a there's a

there's an energy exchange between two

people and you can play it off as like,

"No, but we had an unwritten agreement

where it was like no strings attached."

And you can play that game as much as

you want.

Get enough karma

you'll start to see that there'll be

some someone who will be your teacher at

some point. And I thank every woman in

my life that I've had relations with. I

thank you for teaching me in some way. I

want I want to go on record with that

cuz I feel like it's something that I've

always

I now get it that I was moving a little

bit reckless in the the early times with

the music and everything going on. And

there were there were people who were

trying to

get to my heart and I was just like,

"No, I've got this thing. It's easier to

keep it arms length." And it just

doesn't work like that. So, two

questions on that then. What was the

evidence or the story that your parent

your parents' relationship taught you or

left you with

Okay. for better for worse? And then

that first heartbreak. What were the two

stories those two incidents told you

about relationships? So,

having no modeling of what real

relationship is, it it showed me early

from from mom and dad as much as I love

them with all of my heart that

being single

is the best way to get through life.

Just stay single cuz I never saw my

mother with another partner. I never

really saw my dad with another partner.

Um and I have sisters and brothers. I

never I I but I

I never of of my dad's other

relationships that he had. Um and I love

them equally. But it's just I never had

any

clear

reason to say that relationship works.

And then it reinforces so the story adds

on later on in your life. You start to

see how people

are with each other who are in

relationships and you get friends who

are in relationships and they may be

cheating on their partner or you're

seeing how

uh there's been scenarios where a girl

says she's she's in a relationship. And

thankfully it hasn't been the husband or

anything. But there've been

relationships. I'm not going to be the

the guy saying I I've never met a girl

who was in something. And they'll tell

you a story that is I was breaking up

we're not really in it. But you're

you're starting it's reinforcing the

same thing of

well, stay single then. Yeah, yeah.

Don't get involved in all this because

you your heart will be protected and

life is good and we can keep arms

length. Then link that into the the

first breakup first heartbreak. Heart

was open.

Gave everything relationship I'm all in.

Like I'm going to As a child I was like,

"Okay."

It's hard to psychologically you don't

really understand what's going on in

your in your family, your parents. But

you just at school now and you see a

girl you're like, "Man, I'm falling I'm

falling for you." and

she's into you and it's all happening

and it could have been I think it was

only like about a week week and a half.

Yeah. The break. It wasn't it was this

we're talking early early days. But when

your heart is fully open yeah.

The crushing feeling I had after that

set the tone for

the rest of my life until now I've

unpacked the whole thing which which all

goes hand in hand with some of the songs

I've written on albums before where I'm

talking about breakups. There's a song

called Thief in the Night which is about

a girl who

like what why did you have to end up

being with my best friend? Like why did

There's moments where I'm looking back

thinking when I was writing that song

what was I feeling? I was feeling the

same heartbreak that I had at the same

zero understanding of what relationship

is. And then now I see it's all about

relationship. It's all about opening

your heart up again in the same feeling

that I think we both share when you said

that you had your moments of the trigger

points in your life had to open up

again. And you met someone who met you

at a place to help you through that

which is even better when you meet

someone who's conscious and gets it and

says,

"I've got you. Baby steps if you need

to. But I'm with you. Yeah."

I'm at that place now where I'm like,

"Can you keep your heart open?"

My heart's open, man. It's open

in a way that I'm

I'm down if it if something tried to

tried to close it down.

I'm open as much as I was when I first

had my heart open. And I I wouldn't have

said that maybe in a few years back. The

journey has kind of rapidly kind of

entered into a phase where I just know

that that's the the truth of the matter.

And where are you relationship wise?

Single at the moment which

is

again, you have

especially as as as as a guy and I can

only really kind of speak on my

experiences and and

we tend to

our actions have to line up with the way

that we're

we're feeling. And and I felt that there

was times when I was talking the good

talk. But the way I'm the way I'm acting

is different than what I was how I was

acting before.

So, then there's a part where you have

to pull back the faders and be like,

"Okay, well,

this means that I can't enter into

things where it's

purely This had changed long to the 10

years ago for me. The the

the objectifying of women that that

thing there was something where I had to

just check myself and be like, "What is

this patterning that you have of of a

look and how someone's got to be and and

that's all part of the same thing that

was happening as a as a kid."

That it was

it was very dreamy without the

relationship. And now it's flipped. I I

look for relationship in in in I want to

have a situation where I can connect

with you. Now, regardless of the look,

if we're not going to a place where we

can go there, we can laugh. Laugh is one

of the biggest values of of any

relationship. Someone makes me laugh cry

uncontrollably, you've always got half

of my heart already. Yeah. Because

that's going to save you when the

relationship has its ups and downs. So,

the down is when you need someone who

can bring that. Cuz trust me, the

romantic phase

as as we all know, that's intoxicating.

Yeah, when you wake up after the

hangover

and it's real, you're still having the

same feeling and love starts then. That

hangover

right then, that's when you're going to

ask yourself, am I really in love? The

romantic thing has just a bit of

sweetness and

Have you had long-term relationship?

See, it would sound so short for so many

people, but me it felt long. 2 and 1/2

years was probably my longest

relationship and

Same as me. And and even then, like I

don't feel like I opened my heart. I I

really felt that the girl was really

trying to get me to to break down some

walls and

I I go on record that as as toxic as

things can go

with a little bit of time and

separation, you look at it back at back

and you say, thank you cuz you taught me

so much about how I was moving and how I

was going on and I'm a better man for

that. Cuz now I can open up my heart

like this cuz a lot of guys don't want

to talk like that. They want to keep it

cool. They don't want to talk like that.

So.

One of the other things talking about

things that kind of invalidated us when

we were younger or that we were aspiring

to, I saw this quote and actually saw a

picture of the estate you lived on and

it's

going to say, it's not the estate that I

would wish to have lived on.

I don't want to criticize, you know, an

area, but it's not it it didn't look I

saw a like a gray apartment apartment

block and it it looked like a and

council estate. It was a council estate,

yeah.

And you the quote you said was you were

a kid looking out of your bedroom window

at the estate car park and imagine

having jacuzzis.

Do you know what? I think to correct the

quote even more, yeah, because the

jacuzzi one like

it's funny cuz I was talking about this

only yesterday about like it when I was

speaking about filming in and I was

like, yeah, I was like jumping in the

jacuzzi. I was thinking

what jacuzzi was actually jumping in

because the last time I checked you were

in a two-bedroom flat with your mom,

yeah. So, the only jacuzzi you were

jumping in was your bath, yeah. So,

that's let's put that on record. And you

were in a 4 by 4, yeah? Okay, cool. So,

which driving license did you have at

that point cuz you were only like 15, 16

when you were writing this all?

It was aspirations.

Aspirations. But looking out of that

window overlooking that car park

what my grandmother brought to

to the table in terms of like I mean,

the love that my mom just from my

family, I'm just really grateful for

that upbringing. But my grandma, as

grandmas do

and I make sure you you get the right

food in in you, make sure you wear the

jacket, you know what I mean? Cuz it's

going to get cold, it's going to rain

later on and you're like, grandma. And

then it rains, they just have this

wisdom, yeah.

She had a beautiful little garden

in the house that she lived and it was

like 5 minutes away from where I lived.

And I was just like, that for me would

was was enough as an inspiration

to say if I could have a house with a

garden in Southampton

we're good here. I mean

little did I know that how it would

cascade from the music into

yeah, just that that times 10 in terms

of just like my eyes being open, but it

was that inspiration from my grandma.

And I looked at the car park and it was

like

hit me on my grind. I came on my grind.

That council estate

working class family

growing up

made me have to make ends meet where

secondary school wasn't really setting

me up for when I leave here. I was like

I was already doing my market stall

selling of

chocolates at school, already had that

going on. I was already doing mixtapes.

So, that was my kind of go-to in the

barbers selling mixtapes for

10 pounds that I'd be doing at home

which would buy another piece of

equipment that I'd get another speak

another pair of speakers or another mini

disc player to record on. Then I was

getting a printer so I could print my

own covers. Then I

I was

everything I kind of I'm doing now,

weirdly enough

it's no different than what I was doing

when I was a kid. I literally had my

whole whole little factory of making

tunes, trying to have a little business

going on

so I can make ends meet in my own way

without having to try and pull money

from my mom cuz she already had her own

things going on and she supported me

beyond. Like I think she was going to

deep into overdrafts just to make my my

life feel comfortable. You got the Sega

Mega Drive, right? It was Sonic the

Hedgehog and those those games, yeah.

So, brought back memories of that.

Yeah, you got the but

when I think back there was

where where my money was get where my

mom was getting this money from. Like

she was deeply in debt. So, when you

look back, you say, mom, the love I have

for you. Like 9 to 5, I'm making me feel

like I was getting everything that any

other kid was getting. You know what I

mean? But

and my dad, you know what I mean? Like

he he support he would he would never no

one could cross me. No one no one could

do anything bad to my dad have me.

They'd have to cross my dad and that was

the kind of and that protection is good

to a certain degree, but then when you

grow up dad's not there to do the

things. So, how

where's that part?

So, you're coming to understand

I've got so much feminine energy in me

and that part, but I need the

speaking your truth action now.

So, it's

the yang, my man. The yang. Yeah, the

yang. So, you talk about music there and

it one of the things that was really

remarkable reading through your stories

how early music came into your world and

how early you started like selling

mixtapes and I sat here with I sat here

with many musicians and it tends tended

a little bit later in life. Even Diplo

sat here last week and Diplo it was I

don't know, he was 25 or something

before he really started going in music,

but you were you were young. I know your

dad had an influence in that because he

was very into reggae. Yeah. And he was

in a reggae band, right?

Yes. But where did music show up in your

life and then and how did that obsession

kind of like take hold?

Um

I mean, it was

Like I said when I earlier on I said

like you you're a little high five when

you come into the world. I feel that and

you lose all the the cognitive

understandings to what's going on and

why we're here and then but there's

something intuitively that's pulling you

in certain directions and as a child you

very much honor that. You just go in the

direction.

So, I was always intrigued by the little

high five set up my mom had it in the

flat with a big box of records

and I'd just be flicking through them

and I and there was a a vinyl in there.

There was Ebony Rockers which is my

dad's reggae group which more recently

there's a mural now in Southampton

they've put on on on Ogwell Road.

Huge mural that that says about Ebony

Rockers and I'm thinking, wow, so proud

of my dad. I was like, yes, dad. Cuz you

are a musician in your heart, bass

guitar player

the the the group were talking about

social issues that were going on in the

'70s, '80s and being able to put that on

record and talk about injustices that

were going on in their lives in

Southampton and have it on record, but

now you're getting recognized for that.

Ah, man, like I just love love my dad

for that. It's like I'm just so happy

for him.

So, I was looking at the records and I

pulled out his record and I'd be like,

Ebony Rockers and my mom would say,

yeah, that's your dad's group. And I'd

be like, my dad's like early though. I'm

talking like 5, 6 years old looking

like, my dad's in a group. So, I know

that's definitely there's some lineage

there. There's there's DNA that's come

through musically. My mom was always

into Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson.

Uh my first ever 7-in I ever bought was

it was Human Nature. Oh, really? With

Michael Jackson? Yeah, cuz it it was on

a 7-in.

It was in a It was a small little box

next to the the 12-in.

Um it was the first one I bought. That's

one let me tell you right. It was the

first one I bought, first song I ever

bought. So, that's why and the I mean,

look at the lyric of the song. It

couldn't be any more perfect as a as a

song of like being conscious and

understanding the world.

So, yeah, so I got I had a

and there was there was the bit of Donny

Osmond in there cuz my mom was a big fan

of the Osmonds which was a big group

back in the day.

Um mixed with the Stevies and the

Michaels and and and then also have my

dad's

reggae, deep reggae from Beres Hammond

to Sanchez

uh

Terror Fabulous, Buju Banton, Beenie

Man, Bounty, like early. Like I'm a

sound man at heart. I think when I'm in

the studio, people are like

you literally are Buju Banton, but no

one's actually say like hearing you do

this, yeah. Because I go into this

reggae Kilimanjaro, David Rodigan,

uh Black Cat Sound System in me. So,

when I hear See Carnival, I'm just like

it's me sitting up with rice up with a

little bit of rice and chicken,

a little Budweiser by speaker and I'm

good.

So, yeah, man, that music

started off early and then I just I just

felt like it I just was gravitating

towards it, too. When was the first time

you made music in any kind of context?

Um

first time I made music was

my dad got me a a hi-fi system called

Studio 100.

For anyone who knows that, it was like a

big box, like huge like box with loads

of faders on the front. He came home one

day like he just came to the house and

said, Greg, I got you this Studio 100. I

was like, woo, what am I supposed to do

with this? I have no idea. So, so it had

loads of faders, loads of microphones

with different colored

foam capsules on the top.

It looked the the business with a with a

a record deck on top.

Two twin cassette decks

and lots of switches that I didn't

understand what was going on. But I was

excited cuz I was like, wow, this is the

first time I might be able to record

something. So, I was just fully invested

and when you're a kid, you learn all the

fix, you know all the

So, I started to record. I would have

said I was 11, 11, 12 years old when

that came through and I you'd put a TDK

cassette tape um there was a D90 which

was like the basic one or you if you

were feeling kind of saucy with it,

you'd have like a chrome or or a metal.

They were 2.49 those ones, but if you

went for the normal D90, it was like a

little 69p one.

I put I'd buy two of them. You'd record

into one tape.

So, I'd put the first lead line of

something. And a lot of my early songs

were just sounding like I was literally

just lifting the vocals from every other

song that I was listening to.

I I didn't quite get the memo of oh, we

have to change the melody that much for

it to not be sounding like I'm singing

Jodeci Freakin' You or Boyz II Men. Why

does it sound like you literally just

changed like the the road to street on

end of the road?

You have to do a bit more than that

which I kind of you will learn quickly

if you don't get the memo, yeah.

Um but yeah, so I started to bounce the

the vocals down. So, you sing onto one

cassette, you put that in the bottom

that tape cassette, you then put in

fresh one in the top and you let that

play and you record on top. So, you were

dubbing on top of your vocal. The

quality was diminishing every time you

did that, yeah, cuz this is old school

stuff. But, I was starting to finish

a song. I was feeling very

very proud of myself that I could

actually write a song. How old?

I would have been like Yeah, like 11 12

years old. 11 12 years old.

But, yeah, that kind of led into

a world very nourished with R&B, reggae,

but also the the pop soul element.

Terence Trent D'Arby was the first show

I ever went to at the Guildhall in

Southampton. It blew my mind. I saw this

guy. I was front row. I saw him like he

was moving like Prince with Marvin Gaye.

He had the voice of like a Stevie Wonder

with Michael Jackson. The hardline

according to album was like it was like

7 8 million albums. It was a huge record

for him with the the breakout song Sign

Your Name Across My Heart. Again, look

at the the the the messages. Sign Your

Name Across My Heart, yeah.

I'm like finally, we're getting the

message now. I need to let someone sign

it fully. You know what I mean? And

capitals hold that.

But, changed my life. I was like if I

can I'd love to do what that guy does.

From 11 12 when you're messing around

with those cassettes

to I think when I I've heard you kind of

kind of recount that your first break

was winning that songwriting contest

with Damage, wasn't it? Yes. Was that

what you consider that to be your first

kind of like break

opportunity? You know what? It is like

it gave me a it gave me the first taste

of

of

reinforcing that I could actually do

this. Like it I thought it was a bright

break. Like I was going to we've done it

here. Yeah, yeah. I've written the song.

I'm ready. It's on the back of it's on

the B-side of Wonderful Tonight. They

are a Clapton cover which was the lead

single.

I'm telling everyone in it went to

number two in the charts. I'm telling

all my friends it's because of obviously

my song I'm ready, not the classic

Wonderful Tonight that they've covered,

right? Um

but, I thought it was off the back of

that. And I actually sang vocals on

that. I did BVs on the song. They let me

come up to London, met the guys. I was

just like wow, this is like a dream come

true.

But, I didn't off the back of it it was

like okay, it was in the shops for a few

weeks.

But, nothing. It went quiet after that.

How old were you when you won that

songwriting competition for the boy band

Damage? I would have said I was 14.

Around that

14 15. You start messing around with

music at about 11-ish, you said, right?

And then at 14 you win the songwriting

competition for the boy band Damage. Um

and that's what like three years of just

continuing to mess mess around and

develop and practice and just play

around with music, right? Between that

time.

Yeah. It was it was

And again, the support of my mom and dad

in in in ways that now I'm just like so

thankful for bringing that studio 100

piece of equipment that for me to

record.

Yeah, my first record deck. All all

these things now I was the kid looking

through the music store like oh, I wish

I could have that. Wish I had that one

if I could get that one equalizer. It

would I could mix it. I was just that

I'm nerdy with it. And they would always

somehow have a 10 pound and a 20 pound

ready for me to help me out. And I had

my my chocolate thing going on as well.

It's something really interesting about

you saying nerdy with it because

the guests that I've sat here with

specifically the musicians, it always

seems to be the case that when they were

younger or just before, you know, maybe

in the 10 years before they blew up or

whatever, they were just like really

nerdy with music. There wasn't really an

intention of being the greatest or

getting the number one albums. They were

just like obsessed. Even Wretch 32 when

he sat here it was the same thing. He

was just clearly just nerdy with it.

Very very young age. And I think that's

that's really important to point out

because the pathway to getting to where

you got to in your life isn't that

doesn't appear to be

or at least the starting point doesn't

appear to be this obsession with

becoming a superstar. It's this kind of

nerdy fascination cuz you spent three

years between 11 and 14 just messing

around with cassettes on some piece of

hardware that your dad bought you. Yeah,

of course. It's it's it it did feel that

my obsession with music like when I when

I look back and it's it's different now

cuz I have the same I have the the same

kid in me that wants to do the same

thing that I may have done in those

periods of time especially when I start

collecting vinyl.

Like I knew every producer. I knew where

the snare was on this track was taken

from a Changing Faces song over there.

And this record over here used the kick

drum from there. The bass is used

I was in it. Like I had everything in

alphabetical order with the plastic

sleeves that they all went in. Room was

getting to the point where I couldn't

fit in my room for records. So, I was

really living it to the point where I'd

swap shop with records. I'd be like like

other DJs would say,

I I got to London get records, bring

them back. Those days DJs were the

go-to. Like it wasn't like you go on New

Music Friday and you get 1,000 songs to

kind of to to look through.

It was like if a DJ played in the club,

you would go and speak to the DJ find

out where he got it from because

he's got his 10 copies maybe and this is

a promo that's not going to come out for

six months. Like literally songs were

like you had time cuz it was physical.

Where are you going to go? You can't

copy this unless you've got a lathe and

you're going to start to print acetates

in your house. So, you have to wait. So,

I'd when you went out to London

especially cuz this was like the hub for

where everything was being made and

printed up.

I'd come back sometimes from to

Southampton with some record. DJs are

like where you get that great? Where you

get that?

I said, yeah, you know, I'll swap you a

Faith Evans I Just Can't and a Jade for

the tune that you got. And I said,

maybe give me a little 10 pound extra

for that. You could you could it was all

vibes, man. I just it was such a fun

time cuz things were slower.

And I love it now, but it's just there's

a lot to get into. There's a lot of

music being released just to to keep up

with the flex of it.

I had a few words to say about one of my

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Between 14 and 18 then,

what happens then for you?

I'd gone from

the the songwriting competition

a moment where it was like okay, this is

the this is the this is the thing, but

then it carried on where okay, this

wasn't necessarily the big breakthrough.

Heavily into the into collecting

records. I started to DJ early on. I was

MC at first for

another DJ called DJ Flash who I respect

so much because he brought a lot into my

life to to be

able to be a chaperone for me really. He

knew my dad.

And

he was 10 years older than me. And I had

that at 14 I looked a lot older as well.

So, I I could kind of get I could style

it to get into clubs with him.

And he'd let me be his MC. So, I'd be

called MC Fade and I was just like, you

know what I mean? The fade was Chris and

I just thought that was the

it's crazy. And then he'd give me like a

he'd give me a little slot

to to play maybe a little 15 minutes at

the end of his DJ set. So, in

Southampton he was playing most of the

kind of big clubs there. And he

introduced me to the Cajun Zoo in

Bournemouth.

We'd do a couple shows in in Portsmouth.

So, I was like his I was his MC and also

his box boy as well cuz trust me the

back was getting like

smashed picking up those heavy boxes,

yeah. It's different when you're wearing

the chain with the MP3 on it. It's

different when you're picking up those

boxes, right? Your your squat game's got

to be really on point. Your glutes are

going to be you'll be fired up.

But, I'd always do this thing with him

where I'd be like,

fresh I think I think actually that girl

you were I would just try and find like

a girl he had his eyes on. He'd be

watching all through the night. I'd be

like, I think she she keeps looking at

you, man. You need to go. You need to go

and speak to her. He goes, yeah, but I

was don't worry. I got you. I'll let me

you go and speak to her, man, cuz she's

going to go and it's all going to Okay,

cool.

Handle the fort. I'll handle the fort.

Yeah, you're right. So, I'd play like a

little half an hour thing, yeah. He's

skirting around. Should I go and speak

to her? Should I and he's just standing

next to her. He goes over for the for

the move. She blows him out completely

cuz you were never looking at him at all

for the whole thing, right? I've got a

30 minute DJ set and then he's come back

like, great. So, she didn't even I goes,

I don't know. She was looking at you all

the time. I'm not sure.

You got to find your ways, yeah. But, I

learn from between that 14 to to to

really to 16

was a period of DJing intensely. Then I

started to go off and do my own DJing

sets with MC Alister who's part of the

Artful Dodger. He goes and does MC sets

now.

And then it was kind of it was moving. I

was at college. I'd gone from secondary

school. Now I was at college at City

College. I was doing an NVQ level two in

electronics. It was like the closest

thing I could get to music because there

wasn't like

production

courses like they do now which would

have been great. Back then it was like

how do you forge a trumpet out of metal

and how was how do you make a guitar

from scratch with wood? And I'm like,

you know, I just want to know how

Timbaland makes that or Rodney Jenkins

makes the the the vocal sound so good.

Can someone show me that?

And there wasn't a course. So, I thought

let me do electronics because at least

that gets me closer to circuit boards

which the sounds was around the corner.

Had some wicked equipment in there. I

thought even if I got a a

job working in would be great. I'd be

near decks. I'd near twin tape cassette

decks, and maybe I'll get a little

discount. So, that was my road I was

going down DJing, MCing there.

Never thought it would necessarily

mean meeting Mark Hill and Pete Devereux

from the Artful Dodger, which is where

it it really then transcended.

Tell me about that. So,

in one club, it was called Old

Orientals,

um 10 minutes around the corner from

where I I was living with my mom. Um was

DJing downstairs uh R&B hip-hop set.

Upstairs was house and garage night. Um

Mark Hill and Pete Devereux, who are the

original Artful Dodger, were playing

upstairs. Now, this is the early doors

for garage music. So, you're hearing

like

It's a London thing was playing. Um

Scott Garcia, which was like a classic

garage thing from them days, and

it's even like the the

Lessons in Love was coming through

Robbie Craig, and there were just tunes

coming through and playing. And then I

would go pop my head up and be like, it

wasn't packed up there, but I was like

This is This is a vibe. It's got like

It's like

They're layering R&B stuff now. It felt

over this skippy I don't know what you

call it. It's I know what two-step was.

It was like it was a speed garage. It

was just some weird like some eclectic

thing that's not house, but it feels UK.

And then all of a sudden we got into

conversation. I was talking about all

these songs that I've been recording at

home where I didn't have a producer or

someone who could create the music for

me. Um I was using instrumentals and

stuff to just sing over like you hear a

freestyle.

And then literally that that I mean,

this is where it's so divine that the

serendipity of it was so beautiful. Mark

Hill,

who ended up producing the whole of Born

to Do It album, said, "I've been looking

for someone who writes songs. Like I I

do music. Like I've got the music thing

locked down, but I need someone who who

writes songs who can sing." And I was

like, "Oh, this is a perfect marriage."

And he says, "I've got a studio. It's

like 5 minutes from here at a place

called Ocean Village."

And I was like, you can't even make this

up. Like it's it was

the club like my my flat, the

the the Old Orientals place that we met,

the studio, it was literally within a

10-minute walk. It was like all

perfectly planned. And then from that,

the next thing I did was record a song

called uh What You're Gonna Do,

which was the first release from Artful

Dodger.

And I remember it being printed up on a

on vinyl. They did their own thing,

boxed it all up. I felt sweet. When

you're on a vinyl, I felt I'd made it at

that point. I'm on vinyl, yeah. And they

got up in a van, and they took it up to

London. They go into the record stores,

and they say, "Look, we've got them to

take two boxes here at this record

store." And uh So, in Derby Street in

Soho records there, in Brixton we've got

some I was like,

And something started to build, my man.

Like I can't

I was like just happy to be on a record,

but then

all of a sudden I was getting people

saying who they'd be coming back down

from London saying, "I'm hearing your

tune getting played on pirate radio

stations, you know." I'm like, "What?"

I'm hearing like it's going off. Drop

the funk, drop the bass, hit it. And I'm

like, "What? Are you

And they're like, but then random people

saying, "Oh, well, I I was coming up

from London. It's getting It's getting

played. Like I went to a a club. It went

off. The DJ span it like four times back

to back."

Something was bubbling.

And next thing you know,

I got a call from Public Demand, who

were the label that were that had got

invested in that in that record. They'd

done a licensing deal for that song.

They said, "Do you want to come up to

London and start doing some some PAs,

some some performances for the song?"

And so, I'd love to. So, I called up my

mate Clinton in his yellow Fiesta.

Remember clearly. Got the Jamaican flag

in the back, yeah? Just like he had it

proudly there. Yeah, he had like the the

sub speaker in the boot going crazy.

Everything was tuned up like he was

coming going to Notting Hill Carnival,

yeah? The sound system was way more than

the car, right? Sounded crisp. So, I up

there, I'd slip him like

50 pound to to get me up there, get me

back. And literally, I go up. I was

getting like two 250, 300 pound for a

for a PA, which was good money. I'm

like, "Wow, this is real money now. From

selling chocolates to this kind of

money,

I can buy this record. I can buy that."

And I go to the Coliseum um in Vauxhall,

um the end, um and I started to Twice as

Nice was the the big big name at the

time.

And I'd go out there singing What You're

Gonna Do. And I'd go on stage, and I was

this young 15-year-old kid. I was like

16 at the time.

Walked out.

And I they the DJ even more like any DJ

could play cuz the the Artful Dodger, we

had this sort of agreement that if

Artful Dodger were with me performing,

we're doing a set together, we'd split

half the amount for the for the for the

fee. And if I was going off doing a

performance, then I would just take the

money. And if they did a a DJ set

somewhere, they'd take it. So, we just

had a nice little agreement going on.

So, I go up there, and the DJ would you

say, "You ready? You ready?" I go,

"Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready."

And he'd be like,

"Drop the funk, drop the bass, hit it."

And that's for the first time walking

out seeing it go off. I was just like,

"This is mad." And before I even got to

sing, the guy they're spinning it up,

and everyone's going, "Bo bo bo bo bo

ooh."

Which is where

led to Bo Selecta, with Rewind. Why I

was saying that in the song. It's like,

"Bo bo bo Selecta." That was the phrase

as a cultural reference for that music.

And I think that that's where it kind of

just it it just it just was exponential

after that. It just went from What

You're Gonna Do, then Rewind was

starting to go do its thing. And people

were just losing their minds to that

song. Like I remember my first personal

from PA of that song,

I wasn't sure if the crowd was feeling

it because it goes into this this

baseline in the chorus, which is very it

feels like a halftime R&B record. It's

like So, it's like dum de dum.

So, it's like re rewind. When I cross

over, Bo Selecta, re rewind. You just

got the baseline dum de dum. It's

halftime. You could just be slow jam. De

de de de de de de dum.

And people And I saw people literally

they were standing like And it wasn't

like we're not feeling it, but it's like

we don't know what to do here. Yeah.

Like cuz the the verse is making moves,

yeah, on a dance floor. You got the

garage thing. It's cool. And then it

goes dum de dum.

Shh.

De de de de And and people like

And then when it And that was his USP in

the end. Mhm.

People were like, "Is there that tune

that does that halftime I don't know

what baseline thing, but it goes

slowed?"

And it set the tone for the whole thing.

That song there right there,

still is like my baby. Cuz I felt it

when I walked home with my Sony Walkman

with my headphones on on my jacks going

and just like walking back like just

listening to it thinking, "I don't need

There's certain songs where I don't need

any feedback. I don't need anyone to

tell me what they think about it, how

they feel. I know in my soul

this here

is the one." And it wasn't the one from

it's gonna go off in the club. It's just

gonna go off when I go back to my flat.

I had a huge sub speaker that was

probably bigger than me, yeah, that I

had in the corner, bigger than most of

my room. I had to squeeze my bed out

almost to get it in. When I press play

on that, and it came through that

speaker,

I was like, this I know I'm good. I got

the

the full

uh feeling that I needed. So, from then

I was like, if this is the same for

anyone else, and they feel like this,

then it's gonna clear. And it ended up

being a clear. And that is a a timeless

timeless record. I mean, I listened to

it before you came in here. So, I was

listening to it, and I was like, [ __ ]

it. This could have come out last week.

You know what I mean? It feels like

that. Do you see what I mean? Like I

played it, and I was like, this could be

This would be a hit now. Do you know

what I mean? So,

appreciate you. You know what I mean,

though? 100. Yeah. It's that It's that

It's a

It's a It was a cultural record. It was

It feels very timeless. Like I did a

show the other day or even yes- last

night, and I drop it in,

and the millennials are going crazy for

it. The day ones are there going like

It's just like it's

It's one of those ones. Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

what I mean? So,

So, that leads you up to the to the

point where you start to release your

first solo single. Mhm. Fill me in.

Yeah. Talk to me about that and that

whole process, because that went

straight to number one.

Mhm. Um

From what you've said, I know it changed

your life, right? From going doing these

PAs in clubs to doing I think you did

Wembley three nights in a row or

something crazy crazy in a in the space

of a couple of months as well. Yeah. It

I mean, it went like from like zero to

100.

Literally. That's why I was kind of like

Behind the scenes, funny enough, even

though I say zero to 100, there was a

lot of learning curve that I was

learning.

So, doing doing the DJing, doing

performances in front of a a club a club

PA, or even before that when I was doing

my DJing stuff as an MC,

when the the vinyl's skipping, and the

crowd are looking at you like, "Yo, what

And you've got to improvise quickly."

So, man's going into some kind of MC

like Some of them ain't Some of them are

laughing. Some of them are holding the

mic. I hope they're trying to find

another piece of vinyl to put on cuz

this one's gonna keep skipping. My hope

is hope is when I arrive bo bo bo like

this, jump around and what I do this

crazy and everyone's just like, "Whoa."

Like and then I get it to mix somehow

perfectly, yeah?

And I'm sweating, yeah, cuz I'm thinking

I nearly mashed the whole thing up. And

after people come up saying, "Craig,

that was sick when you did that thing.

How did you do that? Why are you

sweating so much?"

It's It's not even hot in here. The air

conditioning is blasting. I was like, if

only you knew. But it it teed me up for

performances going forward. So, when we

got to Fill Me In,

I I can just remember something

happening when I was doing

There was a a club called Sound, I think

it was, on Leicester Square.

And at this time now, Rewind had been

released. It had gone to number two.

People didn't really know who I was.

They knew the name, which was You know

what I mean? Like you can get See, that

was always the the using the name was

always like a like a tag DJ tag thing.

Like you put your name DJ Khaled would

do it. It'd be like I'd be like, "Craig

David all over you." So, you knew who

was on the record just in case

you you were confused, yeah? And then

that then became

sort of my intrinsic trademark thing

that I did throughout that Born to Do It

album. Um so, it'd just be like, "Craig

David, it's another one." Like all that

all that kind of stuff. Um

But yeah, I remember doing this a

performance I I'd had an interview in in

Capital FM,

and I had to get across Leicester Square

to go and do this

performance of it in Sound, which

Capital were doing like radio

performances from there.

I knew something had really changed when

the security

There was a security guard, and he had

to put me up. I went there with them

just being calm. I went into Capital to

do the interview.

The security guard had to put me up on

his shoulders to get me across Leicester

Square to sound because there were fans

going

crazy. Like

real I could for for a moment in that

period of time the the Justin Bieber

thing the

even before the Drake's I mean it's like

it was that fever pitch pitch where it

was just like Woah, BTS flex. It was

like madness like pandemonium. I just

like ripping pulling like it was woah I

was thinking something's changed.

And I went and did the performance and

then Fill Me In was was was building up

to be my first number one.

And it was my first solo single that

went to number one and I and it was it

was a song that was released the same

day as as Destiny's Child Say My Name.

So to have a number one in the charts

with a group that I'd grown up with

posters on my wall and I thinking this

is crazy. Say My Name Say My Name is one

of my favorite

R&B songs of all time.

So just for Fill Me In to do what it did

I knew something had changed. I I just

knew well it was quite obvious.

And I was

on this wave. It was euphoric. There was

nothing I can I can put my finger on. It

was like it was it was everything but

more. It went from everything I touched

was turning to gold cuz

is

everyone wanted a piece of me and I was

doing acoustic performances which was to

give a different feel for for Fill Me In

which I think was a really

clever uh move from at the at the time

my my record label um

was was half owned uh

by my my now manager uh Colin Lester. Uh

Telstar and Capital were involved. And

it it was just like we wanted to find

ways that it just didn't

exclude me from other radio stations and

make it feel like it wasn't just this

this radio thing.

So we did performances like on on uh TFI

Fridays and on uh Jools Holland which

were acoustic. And all of a sudden I

went from the rise in garage

UK garage uh to wow there's there's

actually a song here. He's writing

songs.

And then the next songs I think kind of

reinforced that it wasn't just just

garage. And then from 7 Days and then to

get to Walking Away because at Walking

Away it gone clear at that point. Really

had gone clear like we were I was in

France in the every other week in Paris

doing

radio interviews and I'd been in doing a

whole of Scandinavia then I'd be in

Germany then we'd be getting a flight

over to America and it just started the

whole

How old were you through this period? So

you start I mean Fill Me In was when you

were 18? Yeah so yeah so we were with

the album dropped the same year. So 2001

was when I went over to the States. So I

would have been like 19 like How does

how does an 18 19-year-old deal with

that? Cuz you know with all the

attention comes a lot of negative stuff.

It's like unavoidable it comes with the

territory. Even with the like the the

fame and people clamoring on you and

stuff. It it changes your psychology

takes a shift or you find out who you

really are right? They say that a lot

like you find out what your demons are

right? Cuz now you got the money you got

the power you got this admiration so

talk to me about like the the other side

of that that meteoric rise.

I'd say

channeling of how I or tuning into how I

was at that time

I I say the it was euphoric. There was

the I was like woah everything's new

you're doing new places and

going to the best restaurants and your

eyes are wide open you're on a plane to

this country and

I went I was at the House of Blues in in

in America doing we had three nights

there and the first night

and I and I tell this because it kind of

just to give context to how bizarre it

was. So remember I've come from your

flash I think I got like you over there

let me do a little mix for you over here

get a little half an hour in a set.

Jump fast forward a few years later

House of Blues three nights in a row

first night Missy Elliott is has come to

to watch the show. I'm looking up

thinking

this is crazy like

Woah.

I can't stand the rain and then just

Missy Elliott just this this whole next

night I'm there I look up in the same

balcony Jennifer Lopez is there.

I'm like wow.

And I know it sounds like I'm name

dropping but I wanted to be to give

context I'm it just is this facts yeah.

The

the the following night So I how am I

missing this? It was it was Missy and

Beyoncé. [ __ ] off. Then it was Jennifer

Lopez.

Then on the last night I look out into

the crowd and there's a lot of kind of

attention on one in particular gentleman

that's in the crowd who's singing and I

couldn't quite work out cuz the lights

were too too dark. So I got the the

front house to turn the lights up. And I

look in the crowd and I'm singing

Walking Away and I look over and I see

Stevie Wonder You're joking. Walking

Away and I'm just like

I mean what do you say at that point? I

would I would felt emotional. I felt cuz

it was Stevie Wonder from the record

collection from my my mom's stuff.

Beyoncé I've got Destiny's Child on my

wall. I had Jennifer Lopez on my wall.

Missy Elliott I'd even listening to

before I come out.

It was just like you can't make this up.

It was almost like

yes you you're behind the scenes and bam

here it is. And then I got to meet him

at the end and he'd come with Quincy

Jones who we all know as the producer of

all of the huge hits from Michael

Jackson.

And then Quincy said

you know like

NJ you know what it is he said it even

more like like coded. He was like

um he was like M he said it was like M's

got your album like it's just like

vibing. I said who's M?

Yeah you know MJ Michael. He's got like

he's got the album he loves Born to Do

It. He's been listening to gave it to

his friends. I was like I was just stop

this.

If we can if this is if this is the

thing we've arrived we're good I've got

my fix there's not much more I could ask

for. But it was literally the start of

an incredible roller coaster ride which

let let the later years I think which we

get into it it harks back to that and I

can I can see

where the the cracks were starting

because when to ask your question about

the other side of it it was so euphoric

and I was so swept up on it. It was like

getting on a surfboard and actually

being on the wave and you're you're

doing I don't know the I never use this

word but like the most gnarly-est like

you're the gnarly wave it's gnarly. You

know what I mean? You're the the the

there's a rip rip curl and it's going

crazy you're through the middle the eye

of it you're on it. You're not coming

off.

But then there was a point

when the next album Slicker Than Your

Average dropped which was only like a

year or so later 2002

had great success with What's Your

Flavor and and the the songs were

hitting but there was this

Born to Do It had now done 7 million

albums.

Six times plat platinum.

Oh. Six times platinum. It's it's it's

still still crazy. And then when you

said about the Wembley Arena three times

sold out. I'm standing outside the the

sign I've got it at my mom's house like

there's a picture of I'm like

you just can't make it up. It's it was

so beautiful and I'm so grateful for

those times.

But I started to see from the Slicker

Than Your Average time where

the record label would already start to

quote uh

I was going to do 10 11 million

obviously Slicker Than Your Average cuz

now the trajectory is going to be has to

go higher than this.

So then when the album ended up coming

out

it ended up it selling 3.5 million

albums.

And 3.5

million albums. Yeah at the time I

remember

that there was this feeling in the

company of

Mhm right only 3.5. And I'm I'm I'm

impressionable I'm a young kid I don't

know I've just got into this the the

music business and you're telling me

that that's not a good thing cuz the

last time I checked the feeling I'm

getting is I just want 3.5 million

albums. Give 3.5 million to any artist

now

like we're good. We're we're you're So

I'd already started to buy into

there was some it was there was a

trajectory the trajectory was starting

to go in a different place that that

I wouldn't even know about figures. I

didn't really care about the album

sales. I was just like I'm just happy to

be here and I'm making music and I'm

doing what I love my dream.

But that was the first learning curve of

the the defining of defining of product

and defining of you being a commodity

that has to achieve something now that

you've set it up here whereas I thought

it got fun when you start to do it. I

thought it got more playful. No no it

got more serious and there's more cooks

in the kitchen and everyone's got an

opinion of the song you should be

releasing. Expectation. beyond

Expectation the curse of all happiness

and joy and You must know this.

You're just trying to equate what your

self-worth through so many other

people's expectation of you like you

said. So you I'm trying to say okay cool

well

we're here I'm a songwriter. I'd always

I'd always had a really great rapport

with my manager Colin Lester who's been

with me like for I've got I love the

conversations that we've we've had over

the years and and him even saying in

early doors

that I can't guarantee you success. I

but I'll do everything in my power to to

protect you and keep you safe so you can

do your thing. And having those kind of

confidence in in in in the people that

you're working with is is is paramount

when you do start to get these the

feedback trickling through cuz I never

was like oh yeah what are today's

midweeks? I wasn't really too interested

in like finding out all the stats

because what happens is and today and

you can get this now and I say this to

any aspiring artist

who's putting music out now and you're

having success is literally just enjoy

it fully be immersed in it because if

you start to check for what's going on

next week

your moment when you're supposed to have

the number one and you're enjoying life

you're already going to be able to see

by Tuesday Wednesday that your numbers

already showing that you're already

number three now. You've slipped off and

they're number one. So your moment of

glory was actually there was the curve

and at the point where you got the thing

which is the beautiful metal number one

or you're already not you're already

kind of on the decline. So

it's that I had to ride that for a few

more albums if I'm being honest to I was

making songs and

they were connecting but if it was a

number four

in the charts, it wasn't number one like

it was before. I haven't got the same

amount of time that I had to to make

those songs. I've got I haven't got

enough

life really.

All this those first albums

there is seminal because it's all your

life up until that point, right?

And then after that, the expectation is

we need it on a deadline and we need it

this time and you've got hit this in the

mix of the fact you're doing a hundred

interviews and you're doing you're

flying all over the place but still

you've got to conjure up that thing.

I don't know any artists that that that

won't feel that and hats off and kudos

to anyone who is able to sustain that

but as a human being

I know that's a tall order for anyone to

be able to

to continuously do and you start to see

with any of the artists who we put in

from from the Amy Winehouses to the

Michael Jacksons to the Whitney Houstons

the height of success when it is like

woah like otherworldly.

There's so much of the the human part

that's being unmet that it it gets to

the point where breaking point and then

something happens be it's it's drug

addiction or if it it it it moves into

mental health issues and depression

which are all so real that no human can

vibrate at that level for that amount of

time and and I

I'm thankful for those moments that kind

of shaved off a little bit of the it

being all go go go because I think that

it kind of made me have to go back to a

lot of things that were

like when my grandmother passed away

which is on the next album story goes.

I was back in my heart again. It's like

I'm writing a song like Johnny about

bullying or I'm talking about let her go

a song I wrote from about my grandmother