when the sex Falls away it can become a

serious problem and the largest study

done on the quality of sex with 70,000

people in 24 countries found the

differences between people who say they

have a great sex life have an awful sex

life has to do with really that's right

DRS John and Julie Gutman are

world-renowned psychologists and

researchers who have studied over 40,000

couples written over 50 books and helped

millions of people find and stay in love

for over 50 years people don't know how

to have good relationships so I've got

so many questions I'll start from the

top what are we getting wrong well first

of all most people are living under the

myth that you have to be compatible with

a partner which is absolutely wrong and

this is really interesting there t-shirt

that where women smell t-shirts that

have been worn by men for at least 2

days and selected the ones they thought

smelled the best and they found they

were selecting the men that were his

most Divergent from them genetically

rather than people who are like them cuz

we're not really turned on by our Al and

there isn't a one looking for the one is

a big mistake what about how do I become

the most attractive version of me if I'm

looking for a partner yeah that's a

great question and this is what you do

this is a difficult question to ask but

have you ever seen cheating help a

relationship oh very very often really

when there's recovery but can it be

treated

75% so far in our research how we

developed a model and here's what it

involves first

this is a sentence I never thought I'd

say in my life um we've just hit 7

million subscribers on YouTube and I

want to say a huge thank you to all of

you that show up here every Monday and

Thursday to watch our conversations um

from the bottom of my heart but also on

behalf of my team who you don't always

get to meet there's almost 50 people now

behind the dire of a CEO that work to

put this together so from all of us

thank you so much um we did a raffle

last month and we gave away prizes for

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one of those lucky people thank you from

the bottom of my heart let's get to the

conversation John

Julie why do you both do what you

do I love that question one has to

Define what we do and there are many

things that we do first of all I love to

write that's great I've been helping

people since I was eight years old for

some odd

reason uh and I love love love

connecting with people and loving them

through their

pain that's why I do what I do and would

you CL yourself as a clinical

psychologist is that your official title

yes okay John could you answer the same

question which is why do you do what you

do and I guess what do you do well to me

it's really an interesting puzzle to try

to understand what makes relationships

work and what makes groups work what

what

makes people be cooperative versus

competitive selfish and mean what makes

them be altruistic and empathetic what

makes what makes relationships become

sources of longevity and health versus

illness and loneliness and despair so

for me it's a puzzle and it's fun to

work on a

puzzle and what do you do I measure

things accurately and

reliably and you know then really just

kind of see where the data fall out so

um it's really applying statistics and

measurement and good math to try to

understand processes that are going on

between people with this really ultimate

question of what what makes

relationships work and what makes groups

work what makes humans cooperative and

magnificent at their best versus selfish

uh greedy and functioning at their worst

so it's curiosity that drives me that's

all and collectively how many people do

you think you've studied researched

treated worked with in your practice

over the last however many decades well

we've done research on 40,000 couples

about the start couple therapy uh using

questionnaires and then more intensely

using physiology and and objective

rating of emotional Behavior about 3,000

couples follow it over time as long as

20 years and how many books have you

collectively written

Julie I think we're on

51 but I'm not sure I've

lost I amum where I wanted to start with

this conversation is is really with I

guess the subje of relationships but how

we find and form them in the modern

society because when you look at the

stats despite the incredible work you've

done over the last couple of decades it

doesn't seem that we're better at

finding and keeping relationship than

ever before if you especially if you

look at non-romantic relationships you

know loneliness and isolation are

absolute alltime highs and the

technology that was invented over the

last couple of decades came with a

promise which was that it was going to

connect us but it doesn't seem to have

succeeded so I really want to start by

answering this question about how people

find love and form those relationships

in the modern world and like what the

data says and what what our psychology

says about where we're going wrong I had

some independent research that I found

uh that says according to the US Census

Bureau nearly 50% of the US population

are currently single according to the

2023 survey by pe research about 33% of

men reported being single followed by

28% of women the average first marriage

for men is 30 years old for women it's

about 28 um we're having less sex

however before um we're getting in

relationships later than ever before

marriages still seem to break down

almost half of them and you probably

know those numbers better than me and

almost half of people are using dating

apps but I think if you speak to anybody

that uses a dating app they feel like

they're all having a bad time when we

think about finding someone to love us

or that we love how much of our effort

should be about actively going out there

and putting ourselves out there buying a

new dress whatever it is putting

ourselves out in the market versus the

internal work of building ourselves into

someone that is a magnet instead of a

door to-door salesman you know what I

mean beautiful beautiful yes um I love

your uh thought about developing

ourselves internally because that's what

goes wrong that makes dating app so

terrible many many people suffer from

terrible insecurity right they feel

shame they may have been criticized a

lot as a kid or in their work and as a

result they hide out they hide and what

they present to the world either through

dating apps this is very common or just

even meeting people at a party is

something they're not it's something

that they believe is the ideal but where

are they getting their information

they're getting it from TV from

Hollywood from idealized Heroes and

heroins that are not real also they're

living under the myth

that you have to be

compatible with a partner which is

absolutely wrong as will talk about um

in other words you have to have the same

interests the same values uh maybe the

same background the same uh class you

were raised in and so on all of that is

wrong interestingly enough so when you

talk about building that internal World

basically what you're saying

is trust your own intuition trust who

you are people will come to you if you

are genuinely yourself and if you're

not um then people may mistake you for

somebody else have an expectation of who

you are and you're in inevitably going

to fail that

expectation which then gives you a

negative

experience uh because you feel like this

other person person is rejecting you and

doesn't like you but the reality is

they're not rejecting you they're

rejecting this idealized portrait that

you tried to present to them which isn't

real I guess a lot of people would think

when they hear that but Julie if I show

up as myself no one's going to love me

yeah that's right especially on a first

date that's right that's right that's

you know that's the sadness people don't

believe because of all that criticism in

the

society that they're worthy of Love they

don't believe it they have to you know

be uh I don't know what Bruce Willis or

something in order

to uh have somebody attracted to them

have somebody really want to get to know

them which isn't true at all in fact

it's the

opposite what do you think to that John

yeah I've been thinking a lot about this

question of you know how do we find true

love um and you know part of the problem

I think is that um as you mentioned

loneliness is a very serious thing and

um and so many people are lonely and

part of what they haven't done is to is

build a friendship Network that can

support them friends are just so

important as a precondition for finding

the love of your life because you know

the the research that's been done on

Strangers now shows

that people think that

97% of strangers if they talk to them

will be

rejecting and will feel like they're

invading their privacy but the data

shows that just the opposite is true

that when you approach a stranger almost

97% of the time they're quite delighted

to become contacted and they and they

meet an initial contact with interest

enthusiasm and so talking to strangers

turns out to be really a very important

thing and turning a stranger into a

friend turning your social networks into

places that are not alienating that are

you know places where you actually can

enjoy human and Company uh is an

important pre prerequisite to dating so

I would say you need to build that

friendship Network first and once you're

not lonely you're not desperate and then

you can find somebody much more easily I

think this is a really interesting point

which is you you finish there by saying

if you're not lonely you're not

desperate and I was I was thinking as

you're talking about what the most

attractive version of me is to the world

if I'm looking to find a partner whether

I'm a man or a woman um it doesn't sound

like a desperate version of me is a very

attractive version of me right so on

this point of

Attraction we'll start with you John and

then we'll go because we started with

Julie last time what do we know about

what makes people attracted to each

other like how do I become the most

attractive version of me to the world if

I'm looking for a partner I think

everyone is really interesting and

attractive as long as you know they're

with somebody who's curious about them

so uh if you're with somebody who's

really snobby and uh you know

condescending Superior nobody's at their

best you know but when you're with

somebody who's really interested in you

then you can really emerge and just

about everybody is really interesting

their thoughts are unique and their

background is interesting and their

their goals and their their struggles

are really fascinating so um I think

it's the social context that makes the

difference rather than the individual so

the problem with dating I think is that

they create this very

artificial situation in which everyone's

being

evaluated and assessed and they're

swiping left you know all the time well

my person's not quite right not quite

right not quite right not quite right

the research of Eli fle shows that

there's nothing you can measure in two

individuals that will predict whether

they like each other there's nothing you

can measure nothing you can measure in

fact you can actually ask people exactly

what they're looking for in a partner

and find that exact person in a large

database and it's very unlikely that

they'll like that person when they meet

them yet if you randomly pair them with

strangers 22% of people like each other

when they first

meet I wonder about the role that

self-esteem plays in attraction it's

kind of what we're talking about with

like being desperate maybe they feel

like a similar thing and I wonder if

there's any like data that supports this

idea that self-esteem or your

self-perception is this invisible force

that makes you attractive or not

attractive I've actually seen it in some

of my friends who I won't know who

started going to the gym and just

because they started working on

themselves it's almost like they grew

six Ines like they just were like

different people yeah so yeah a lot of

Attraction we think like go get the blow

dry I'll go get a better outfit but this

goes back to point about how much of it

is actually like do the internal

work what do you

think I think there's a lot to be said

for that yeah if you have a group of

friends you know who really like you and

you really like them then it's easier to

emerge and you know this this dating

situation is so

artificial that people are so terrified

you know when they meet somebody and

instead of approaching them with

curiosity about them they're worried

that they won't make a good impression

and they're so self-conscious of

themselves rather than being curious and

interested in the other person and

because if they're curious and

interested in the other person you know

it doesn't matter what happens right I

mean uh you meet somebody new and you

learn about them and it's an interesting

experience and maybe they're interested

in you too so the dating experience is

just kind of fun you know it's about

exploring two people exploring one

another and then there's no objective

there's no there's no real goal there

and then it's much less artificial and

then when you meet somebody you really

click with that's a wonderful experience

and especially when you meet an outlier

like I met Julie I dated 60 women before

I met Julie she's number 61 I had a

database so I knew

I met an outlier for me she was an

outlier because I just loved interacting

with her it was just so much fun and uh

she was Head and Shoulders above any

person I'd met before do you know what's

interesting though when people look at

you too and when they look at other

relationships they'll go okay John I get

it so you got to make a database you got

to wait till the you find the

one right and this is often the cause of

much procrastination as it relates to

love everyone's looking for the Julie

you know

there isn't a one you know that's one of

the the other myths there isn't a one

and it's funny because we've seen this

in our research on the opposite end of

it and here's what I mean every pairing

of people uh no matter how wonderful

they are no matter how much you love

them the two of you will always have

Perpetual problems between you and those

are based on either lifestyle preference

differences personality differences

always and at some point those conflict

and so you know what we saw in our

research was you know something like

69% of the conflicts that couples suffer

from or have are Perpetual problems they

never go away so you know when I have

somebody coming into my office that says

I want to find my soulmate my soulmate

it's like huh what's a soulmate you know

I mean there you out of out of whatever

in the US we have what 350 million

people there's

probably 500,000 of them that you would

find wonderful and attractive right so

looking for the one is a big mistake

because inevitably they snore at night

or you know they eat with their mouth

open or you know something that drives

you crazy so okay so you're not looking

for the perfect person you're not the

perfect person and that's what I was

referring to earlier as you know let's

see each other as human beings there is

no Perfection we are all flawed we all

have cracks in us and those can be seen

as beautiful too we don't have to be

perfect to be

loved right y

right it's interesting because that

marries to something that I was reading

about in your books where you talk about

how often attracted to people who are

very different from ourselves and just

the very nature that they're different

from us means that there's going to be

that pretty much constant conflict why

is it the case that we're attracted to

people that are different from ourselves

is that true um because it doesn't seem

to make sense on the surface you'd think

I would be attracted to someone that

likes Manchester United and you know

like my favorite food and my favorite

stuff because then we'll get on like a

house on fire but

you're telling me that we're attracted

to people that like yeah the research of

class wakin is so interesting uh this

t-shirt study that he did uh where women

smell t-shirts that have been worn by

men for at least two days and selected

the ones they thought smelled the best

uh they actually were selecting what

wakin found was they were selecting

t-shirts of men those pheromones were

attractive the men were as most

Divergent from them

genetically just in the genes of the

immune

system wa very Divergent kinds of people

smelled really attractive to these women

rather than people who were like them

and actually the experiment was done it

showed they actually like those men

better than other men they might have

met so genetically different genetically

different in terms of the immune system

so here's this uh evolutionary explan

of why people are searching for somebody

who's really different cuz we're not

really turned on by our clone we're not

turned on be by people who are just like

us Julie and I are vastly different

she's you know this uh Adventurer you

know this Outdoors person she loves the

trees and Hiking you know up Mountain

Trails I'm an endorsement I like sitting

in my chair and reading books on

mathematics and quantum mechanics and

general relativity Theory he's a

consumate indoorsman so we're very

different you know but what's the EV

Sher reason then do you think for why we

like people that are different oh the

genetic immunity so um remember it's all

about reprodu reproduction right so if

you've got two very Divergent sets of

genetics in terms of the immune system

that child is going to have a broader uh

genetic base as their immune system as

opposed to two identical or close to it

where they'd have a very narrow genetic

base for immune immunity is there

anything else that if if you were

advising me if I was a single man and I

was saying okay how do I find a partner

um what should I be doing or looking for

should I make a list of things that I'm

looking for um should I be I don't know

you said earlier about being my

authentic self as much as I can be

because that you don't want people to be

attracted to your mask but should I be

making a list like what what should I be

going for is there qualities that are

enduring as it relates to success in

Romance that everyone should be looking

for should I lower my expectations it's

not about qualities it's about well I

hate to say it but it's more about

Behavior so for example um and I have so

many particularly women who've been

divorced and now they're dating and they

ask that question and here are several

of the things that I always tell them

one is uh does the person male or female

ask you questions about yourself or do

they broadcast did they just tell you

who they are oh my God my boss just gave

me a promotion oh my you know aren't I

cool or I just won this athletic

competition no are they asking you

questions about yourself and not only

that but listening to the answers right

and taking in the answers and oh that's

interesting that's one another is you

know our society is very striated right

so how do they treat

people who have let's say less social

status than they do how do they treat

the waitress who comes to their table do

they treat them with disdain or scorn or

you know the stake is terrible take it

back or are they kind do they treat them

like human beings that's another thing

do they treat people equally or uh do

they only treat a certain group with

respect and the others not that's number

two number three is are they reliable do

they do what they say they're going to

do if they say they're going to call you

do they call you if they say I'll pick

you up at 8 are they there at 8 so

reliability is a big deal and of course

nobody can be perfectly reliable you

know life happens but do they call you

to let you know oh I ran into heavy

traffic so I'll be 20 minutes late so

you know there's a

consideration there of your time of your

energy curiosity as John pointed out uh

as to who you are and also

um there are so many people who as you

have been talking about are so terribly

lonely watch out for this watch out for

people saying in the first date oh my

God you're it you're the

answer oh my God you're fantastic I

think I love you you know that kind of

um rush into let's have an intimate

relationship right now I want to marry

you and I'm going to ask you

tomorrow no you know they people need to

take their time to get to know one

another and peel away the layers slowly

and carefully to build trust do you

think that speed to rush into a

relationship is a sign of something else

further up like further Upstream maybe

incity you bet needy there and I don't

like the word needy um because everybody

has needs we're pack animals you know we

need each other we depend on each other

but um somebody who can

contain themselves as you were pointing

out with or without you energy that's

right and have done that internal work

so that they're not looking to you to

answer every problem they have M you

know I would give different advice to to

a male who's who's dating I I would say

you know just have fun you know me

people like when I was creating my

database you know I I met a woman who

was a survivalist he had a 38 Magnum

pistol right by her by her bedside and

she spent thousands of dollars on gowns

to go to Opera cuz she loved Opera and I

remember sitting there in her house and

saying you know God this is really

interesting you know I I don't know if I

like this person or I could be with this

person but she's fascinating you know

it's kind of fun getting to know her and

then at a certain point there's somebody

you meet like I met Julie and everything

feels right the world just kind of opens

up when you talk and your heart opens

and it's very different it's not just

interesting it's really there's

potential there that you don't feel with

anybody else were you desperate when you

met Julie though I don't think I was oh

I don't think I was desperate I I've

been divorced for about seven years I

was looking to meet somebody my you know

close to my age who you know was an

interesting person and uh I met a lot of

interesting people but she was different

I also this question impart because I I

wonder if someone's ever done a study

where they take a group of people who

are looking to find someone and then

they take a group of people who who

aren't really looking and they see who

has the most success and when I say

looking I mean some people are literally

looking for a husband and they they feel

like they need to find one within six

months because you know biological

clocks and goals they might have for

their lives and all these kinds of

things versus a group of people that are

just open to it and I wonder who's more

attractive I think either one can work

right you know I I don't think there has

to be a magic formula so I think I think

if you approach the whole situation with

curiosity and wonder you know and just

kind of see who we meet and see what

happens but but that see sounds more

like this group here you know that's

right I agree with you what you're

describing is

that being confident in yourself and

just being curious as opposed to I

really have to find somebody I need to

find somebody good um very very very

different I think about this in part in

the context of business as well because

as an investor you get an energy from

the entrepreneur that's trying to get

investment from you as to whether they

need you or whether you're an option and

it's so remarkable how much more likely

you are to invest in a Founder who makes

you feel like an option and I think

because and then you have these other

Founders when I can literally think of

one example that popped to my mind from

the last couple of weeks where they were

so desperate that it was almost

rude wow how did that manifest as in the

way that they sent their emails and the

way that they were like demanding and

how urgent they wanted to speak to you

and all these kinds of things and how

like

loky um expectant they were from you

made me feel like their business wasn't

doing

well whereas F and I think about this in

the context of relationships whereas the

founders and entrepreneurs that message

me where they're kind of more patient

they you know they're kind of maybe a

little bit busier the ones that have

that like it's I'll keep going back to

that phrase like with or without you

energy where you're an option to them

you're much more likely to invest you

feel like it's a privilege to invest and

I think about this from the context of

the question I just asked if someone's

like I need a husband now versus

someone's like I'm open I'm curious I'm

willing to go on the date and see yeah

right if we're right because I realize

that me saying yes to you

is a huge investment so I need to take

my time to figure out if that investment

is going to be worthwhile because I

respect

myself right yeah maybe you're right

right maybe it's better if you're just

kind of confident and not so desperate

any fake confidence

Julie this is the problem no you know as

a matter of fact when people try to fake

confidence they often um overstep it

right and uh golly I know I'll never

forget that his fellow in high school he

would brag about himself without knowing

that he was bragging he would boast and

boast and boast and boast and I realized

oh my God I cannot stand this you know

because it was so

fake but important thing I realized that

the extremity of my negative attitude

towards him was because there was a part

of me that was just like them that felt

insecure that wanted to present you know

this Perfect Image to people that I

wasn't uh which is what he was trying to

do and so then it's like oh I've got a

little work to do on myself well you

know one thing one thing about this

dating situation that's interesting is

even though there's nothing you can

measure in individuals that will predict

that they like each other once they get

together and start interacting our lab

can measure if that interaction has

promise or not wow really we measure

openness uh the emotional connection the

fact that people are

either connecting with one another

communicating with one another or not we

measure tension versus

relaxation or we measure uh curiosity

and interest and all those things yeah

so can you give me really specifically

exactly how a couple would show up

really specifically if they were if they

had promised to last and be successful

together so if you watch their videotape

and they had promise you'd find them

laughing together uh you know mirroring

each other smiling uh asking questions

being open uh wondering about things and

you'd have this real sense of

exploration and open openness

and um curiosity and interest in one

another whereas in in a couple that

wasn't doing very well you youd sense

this tension uh sarcasm a lot of you

know

negativity uh bragging about themselves

talking about themselves rather than

being interested in the other person

body language body language the ratio of

positive to negative emotion in in those

couple would be much less than one

whereas it would be 3 to one or 5 to one

among couples who are really getting

along very very well where is this

potential this openness and potential

what's the difference in body language

Let me let me demonstrate it so somebody

who's overconfident pretend he's not

sitting here is just going to be

doing so that for people that aren't

watching laying back on laying back your

arm you know stretch out over the top of

the chair next to you you're leaning

back you know which is to me come to me

you know it's all me um it's all about

me and I'm so cool and somebody who is

really

engaged is going to be more kind of

leaning forward and making eye

contact being fairly relaxed you know

not not hunching their shoulders inward

which shows they're probably depressed

they're insecure they're hiding out but

you know just relaxed their shoulders

are you know not up to their

ears

um they're allowing their eye gaze to

look away as they think about something

and then they look right at you and they

answer the question all of those

indicators that ratio of I to other I Me

Mine you know

predominates uh conversations where

there's all this tension say that again

sir is where you know the conversation

is really about just myself I'm sort of

putting myself in the center versus

being interested in you being interested

in us being interested in we and and

that emerges that openness emerges in

language as well there's also a

reciprocity uh in the sense that um

let's say you and I are meeting um you

asked me some questions about myself

I'll answer those questions but then

I'll ask you I'll come back and ask you

questions about yourself as opposed to

go ahead ask me more questions and more

questions and

more um so I'm only happy when I'm

talking about myself right right so

you know you're going back and forth

exhibiting that Curiosity as opposed to

uh just adoring somebody being curious

about you but not reciprocating by being

curious about them I um it's funny

because you're talking about body

language a second ago and many people

will click on episodes on YouTube or

podcasts that try and teach us body

language but I I think okay you can

learn some of the things but really

again I think body language is a symptom

of what's going on inside how do you

build confidence is really the question

you know especially when you

begin uh let's say in a family or with

caretakers who are critical and

contemptuous of you and when you have

that from practically the ground up as I

did uh

you internalize that and you believe

you're worthless because you were

treated as worthless so how do you build

the confidence right so either through

maybe therapy

through looking at yourself in the

mirror and saying all right this is who

I am this is who I am this is who I am

you know

one I I used to like almost every single

woman no matter how beautiful you are

you will always measure yourself as

inferior to somebody else always as a

woman I mean you've seen already 6

million images of idealized women by the

time you're 18 think about that so how

do you build confidence in what you look

like go to a locker room where women are

undressing and look at their real bodies

and notice the variety notice you you

know the the whatever woman that's

larger than the standard thinner than

the standard women come in all shapes

and sizes so do men and just seeing the

reality the reality as opposed to the

photosho you know that's the thing that

is so difficult about technology is that

these days you know especially with

dating apps and so on people people are

photoshopping their images or they're

taking an image of themselves 30 years

ago and they here is what I am and I

actually still have hair it's the

reality that it's not really about the

appearance it's not even about you know

the IQ or whatever or the education it's

really about the well here we go it's

it's about the heart it's about the

heart is this a kind person is this a

caring person is this a person who

exhibits

compassion who treats people equally and

so on a dating that wouldn't work on

that basis would it no and most people

are lying on taking too that's right is

there a difference in what men and women

look for in a partner as it relates to

attraction when they first meet well you

know that's an interesting question

because uh I remember reading this paper

by Eli fle he says in the introduction

you know

generally uh the dating research

suggests that men are looking for

physical Beauty and women are looking

for occupational competence and wealth

and but actually when he did this really

elaborate speed dating study none of

that actually manifested in people's

preferences uh the preferences were all

in terms of what it felt like to be

together

and both men and women were really

similar so when you interact with

somebody for you're going to interact

with them for 5 minutes and the speed

dating uh situation what made the

difference was how much fun it was to

interact with them for five minutes how

enjoyable it was and men and women were

the same so the the the social context

of dating is so important um because if

it's this very tense you know evaluative

context

nothing is going to work but if it's

this relaxed sort of interested curious

context almost everything's going to

work now a lot of dating happens these

days with alcohol in a nightclub or with

alcohol at maybe dinner or at a bar is

there a better place to conduct a first

date and if so why well first of all

alcohol distorts everything drugs

distort everything you know there's a

reason they say

intoxicated toxic alcohol is toxic so it

shuts down certain parts of the brain

shuts down to some degree uh your

ability to judge your ability to sense

your reflexes your

intuition um all that stuff is shut down

to some degree and so wow she's really

hot I'm going to go for her you know

you're not picking up that you know

she's wearing a wedding ring she's

sitting with a man who has a match in

wedding you know you're not picking up

all that stuff so probably a coffee shop

is nice where we met yeah well I think

it needs to be a context that is not

evaluative um you know I think it has to

be some kind of relaxed context where

you're just kind of getting to know one

another uh yeah and seeing what it's

like to meet this person so it's the

Judgment that makes it tense and

uncomfortable and so people need alcohol

to get relaxed and of course then

they're you know where they get high and

they're laughing at everything and

nothing and there's no there's no

connection there's no real connection uh

so the evaluative context is the is kind

of like um the an the antidote to love

you have an evaluative context you know

you're trying to be your at your best

the other person is trying to be at

their best but you know there's no real

interest in one another when you say

evaluative context it means that we're

evaluating each other it's really really

AAR Jud it's like an interview basically

yeah it's like it's like a job

interview interesting never going to

work is there a certain age where if you

get together with someone you're more

likely to be successful I was talking to

my friend about this actually this

weekend because he is um approaching 40

and his partner is significantly younger

um it's my friend that lives in uh

America in New York and he was telling

me that because she's sort of 23 he's

struggling a little bit because he wants

to settle down and he wants to think

about kids now and she's still trying to

figure out life so it made me wonder if

maybe he should be aiming at people that

are at least that that sort of 30 age

where you start right you know I don't

know if there's any research to you know

I I don't know about the research but

what I've seen clinically is that people

who date uh others that are very very

different in age from them have a

problem typically because first of all

their um the social history in which

they were raised is different right so

for example John and I uh though we're

not the same age we're about nine years

apart but we both went through Vietnam

we both went through all the

assassinations in the US Civil Right the

Civil Rights movement you know I got

arrested he didn't I was unlucky you

know in the protesting stuff but but

that context you know

understanding uh a period of history

that you grew up in is really important

and also internally in the sense that

there are really phases of development

that you go through as you get older and

you're absolutely right Stephen in that

a 40y old old who wants to now settle

down create a home create a family and a

23y old are incredibly different

developmentally so their goals will be

different their values will be different

if you will their maturity will be

different um their interests Also may be

strikingly different there may be a real

difference in valuing commitment you

know and so on uh so I've seen

relationships work with that kind of

desperate age but

typically um that can happen more easily

when you're older when you've already

created your identity you've already

identified what what profession or line

of work you want to do uh whether or not

you want to have kids or if you've

already had kids and so

on so like a 40-year-old and a 50y old

or 55y old would be very different than

a 40y old and a 23y old um good enough

relationships should I be looking for

because this goes back to what I was

saying earlier about you know looking

for the one looking for your Julie or

should I be looking for a relationship

that is good enough um and then try and

build it to be a great relationship

because there's a lot of people that are

maybe over 30 years old over 40 years

old you are single um struggling to find

someone that's great and so they their

friends or their Partners or you know

the people around them are saying just

you know that person's good enough that

person's good enough just you know give

them a chance and go on the date and

yeah I think I think there's a lot to

that point of view uh

because when you know when you're

looking for the perfect relationship

that's good in every

Dimension uh you're going to be

disappointed and uh I think I think it

makes some sense to look for what's good

enough and so you know what's good

enough for one person is not the same as

what's good enough for another person I

know you know what's good enough for me

is having somebody you can really trust

and really feel a sense of commitment

toward and those two dimensions are

absolutely critical is that what did you

have non-negotiables both of you I were

there was there anything on your list of

things that were mandatory in finding

your partner yeah for me it was wanting

children so that's the non-negotiable

for you yes was there anything

else that was

non-negotiable uh monogamy okay yeah for

me

yeah sense of

humor was really

important I think another thing too is

do you get bored talking to them or not

or are they continually in interesting

to you um but I think one of the most

important things is how do they make you

feel about

yourself not just you know you're

attracted to them or whatever but how do

they make you feel about

yourself if they make you

feel uh dumb or unkind or too needy or

whatever not cool on the other hand if

they make you feel like the most

gorgeous thing in the world and the most

brilliant person in the world Etc and

you know you're not that's not it

either you know so do they recognize you

it's almost like that do they recognize

you in your fullness of humanity and you

know that takes time of course you have

to get to know one

another

um but let's see you

nebl I know very quickly um I think we

both realized

that whatever we spend time together

it's always interesting and

fun that's true talking over anything

it's really that's true and everything

that you said everything that came out

of your mouth was so fraking fascinating

I knew I would be learning from him the

rest of my life yeah I felt the same way

about you you know and Road a road trip

trip was an opportunity it was really

you know a time to talk about our dreams

and our hopes about the world and

yeah what about sex and the role that

plays in attraction I asked this

question because I had a relationship

when I used to live in New York and I

really really liked this person we got

on all the things you described the road

trips everything was fun and then when

it came to the point where we had sexual

intimacy it just wasn't there yeah and

it was it was crushing for me because

this person was perfect in every

conceivable way smart kind fun

everything I just and then the minute we

moved to the the next stage it just

wasn't there I just wasn't sexually

attracted had that experience too and so

it made me add to my list of

non-negotiables a third thing at the

time there was two things on that list

the first was they kind of helped me

become a better version of myself and

however I want to Define that the second

was this intellectual stimulation the

ability to conversate and be interested

in them and them interested in me and

the third became not about appearance at

all it was purely a sexual

connection because yeah and so I just

wonder the role that sexual intimacy and

sexual attraction plays in having a a

good relationship with someone yeah you

know I think that really varies Stephen

because um there's a huge range of the

importance sexuality plays in

individuals you know some people are

practically asexual MH other people you

know it's been a really long time if

they hadn't had sex in four hours so and

everything in between so I think to some

degree that's an individual in a choice

as to how important is sexuality to you

and having a wonderful sexual

connection as opposed to who cares you

know I just want to have cup coffee and

a pastry you know it

so every individual needs to decide that

for themselves how important it is and

then you know if it if it is important

even of average importance it's really

important yeah but the other thing too

that's interesting I mean we're talking

about dating but I've also seen

relationships that have been together

for a long time and uh the sex Falls

away

mhm but it's much more important to one

person than the other and they

diverged and it becomes you know a

pretty serious problem uh it didn't

start off that way but it can become

that way and what happens in those

scenarios well you know typically it's

really interesting um of course in

second well second marriages or

relationships at let's say over 40 or so

um women uh especially women going

through per menopause you know finishing

with

menopause um sex hormones go way down

they go way down and so are they still

interested in having sex

well they may not be so interested in it

that they want to initiate sex but we

all

hardwired in particular ways um so you

touch there you lick there you know you

stimulate here and that wiring is going

to kick in and the sexuality will kick

in again and the sexual responsiveness

will kick in so um you can work on that

angle number one but number two often

times there have been big emotional

injuries IES that have broken trust that

have broken emotional

connection

and okay so two theories

one most men in Western culture are not

uh they don't accept themselves if they

just want to

cuddle that's not

masculine right so everybody needs touch

but for many many men who bought into

that the only way they can get touch is

through sex they can't just say will you

please just hold me women can because

women are considered you know more

vulnerable and uh softer and it's okay

for them you know to ask to just be held

but not for men so you know sex becomes

a difficult thing there too especially

with an ultra m Uline man where he's

just come back from war he wants to just

be held but he can't ask for that he's

got to be tough and strong and sexy

therefore he'll go for

sex any thoughts on that John I I I

think I agree with you I it it's it's

not negotiable you know it's it's one of

these intangible things that you know if

it's not there it's not going to work

very well in the beginning if it's not

there right I mean

it's yeah I think it needs to be there

because it goes on a journey all

relationships it's funny because from

doing this podcast and speaking to a lot

of sort of sex therapists or Coupes

therapists this one of them said

something to me one day or maybe two of

them said the same point I think two or

three of them so the same point which is

much of what makes sex so you know

arousing is the spontaneity and the

novess the newness of it the excitement

of it all these kinds of things and they

said to me that love is in many respects

the opposite of that it's the opposite

of spontaneity and love is like security

and trust and dependability and it's you

know knowing someone so I I've spoken to

a few of my friends in fact about this

Balancing Act between like I really love

this person I know them and I'm there

for them and we we know everything about

each other

and then like having to fight to also

create this excitement like how do I how

do I love you like we've known each

other for 10 years and you can trust me

and depend on me but then how do I have

sex with you like like we've just

met it's this so we call it the coolage

effect have you heard of this uh Kelvin

coolage uh was President of the United

States and he and his wife were visiting

visiting a farm and uh and as the

president uh was led past these uh

chickens and roosters the farmer said oh

uh this rooster has sex 17 times a day

and Mrs kulage wanted me to point that

out to you Mr President when she came by

here because we pointed out that rooster

as sex 17 times a day and Calvin Coan

said with the same head

and the farmer said no always a

different H he said and president said

tell that to Mrs

kulage so the coolage effect is that it

has to be novel it has to be exciting to

be eronic right and familiarity you know

which creates security and relaxation

and openness is antithetical to the

novelty that creates sexual excitement

but the truth is actually not so simple

uh because eroticism often really

results from really creating an erotic

situation together and making it an

erotic situation and for women

especially feeling safe and feeling

emotionally connected is a prerequisite

for feeling really attracted and feeling

that this is an erotic situation that

emotional connection is necessary for

many women because women have such a

strange relationship to safety and fear

compared to men the world is so much

more dangerous place for women than it

is for men women really need that

emotional safety and connection in order

to feel that the situation is erotic at

all it's important for your your

audience to realize that the largest

study done on the quality of sex with

70,000 people in 24 countries found that

the differences between people who say

they have a great sex life and people

say they have an awful sex life has to

do with affection and emotional

connection that people have a great sex

life say I love you every day and mean

it kiss each other passionately for no

reason at all cuddle they're

affectionate even in public they have

romantic dates so affection and

emotional connection for most people all

over the planet Are connected rather

than there being this dichotomy between

if you're close and if your friendship

is good sex is going to be terrible and

if you're distant and you know and it's

novel sex is going to be great just not

true that's right and is there a certain

amount of because a lot of couples fall

into this trap of sort of fake

comparison whether it's social media or

movies where we think okay if we're not

having sex three times a week

something's wrong I need to raise it we

need to argue about it we need to fix

it is there any Merit to the

quantity resulting in you know happiness

no no relationship between quantity and

happiness quality yes well with the

caveat with the caveat that if you have

two people paired together one who is

extremely sexual MH and you know really

does need sex frequently and the other

one uh the opposite sexual who is more

asexual and you know could take it or

leave it want sex maybe once a month

that's not going to work that's not

going to

work one of the things me and my friends

have been deliberating about is the

importance of what we call Desire

management which is if someone is like

around too much and they're there every

second of every day in the house when I

get home you know everywhere does that

not to some degree start to kill the

desire a little bit one of the best

things that I I think I found in my

relationship is that my partner is

always working away then I'm working

away and so when we see each other it

feels special and

interesting but I personally don't know

that if we were both in the house seven

days a week and I worked from home with

her whether the desire would be the same

I don't know you know I I I think that

for example John and I are around each

other 7 days a week and we have been for

you know most of our marriage but it

doesn't matter um is that because of my

attachment style maybe because you know

I wondered if yeah yeah could be could

be I need a lot of

solitude yeah but you all around each

other yeah but you're around each other

most of the time you well we are but but

you know in a house where there's enough

space in the house to not be in visual

contact with the other person all the

time right you see so he's downstairs I

may be upstairs something like that or I

can maybe hear him maybe not he can hear

me maybe not you know

so

um I think there is something wonderful

about being a part and then coming

together that reunion after you've been

a part for a while is really quite

delicious you know what though this is

so interesting I I am working with an

individual right now uh and they're both

artists they both travel a whole bunch

all the time and whenever they reunite

after one of them is

gone nothing there's nothing for about

two or three days and then they have to

get into the same rhythm again

someone said to me on this podcast they

said you have to spend 90 minutes a week

talking to your partner and if you don't

and the person actually said to me if

you don't get that into your dumb skull

you'll be spending much more time with

them in divorce court oh and wow I know

it was a it was a Brash thing to say but

I reflected on it and it really helped

me because I think I don't know I'm I'm

speaking as a man so I can't speak for

all men I can't speak for women but

speaking for as a man myself and also on

behalf of my friends with my own

attachment Stu I think that's important

to add I struggle with naturally with

conflict resolution because conflict

resolution to me sounds like blame so if

my when my partner says we need to talk

I'm like oh my [ __ ] god what have I

done now that's right what have I done

now and I sit there like a you know I

feel like it's a a kid in school being

told off by their like the Headmaster or

the a child being told of by their

mother I'm like go on tell me all the

ways that I'm inadequate but the phase

of this idea of you're going to have to

spend 90 minutes a week sitting with

each other and talking regardless help

me because he he then went on to say

because if you do that then you can get

to play well I think here's here's my

invention I have a notebook in my back

pocket oh yeah interesting and it's just

designed for when Julie says we need to

talk and I take out the notebook and a

pen and I say okay talk to me I'm taking

notes I want to know what's going on and

she'll tell me I'm disappointed you or

angry you know I mean whatever says you

know I write it down and reflect it back

and see if I understand what you're

saying yeah and so I think I think it's

not just 90 minutes it's 90 minutes when

you're willing to listen non-defensively

which is not easy that's not easy that's

really the work in relationships is

being

non-defensive but that's why we wrote

fight right yeah you know and when we

gave you know talk uh it's it's

really so important to not do that you

you you you blaming thing that blaming

it's you know I feel about what what's

the situation not you know the way you

fail me it's the situation Julie is it

is it more often men or women that are

saying that I feel

are you kidding men are catching up but

it's hard it's hard for men to do that

women I mean you go to mental health

expertise and all the characteristics of

uh a man that are considered mentally

healthy autonomy

Independence uh strength resilience

resilience you know all the stuff that's

autonomous for women

vulnerability sensitivity empath empathy

expressing emotion so you know there's

only one emotion that men are allowed to

really openly Express

anger right can they express fear oh my

God I'm so scared of going in there

tomorrow or sadness or you know the more

vulnerable

emotions it's God think about it it's

seen as

effeminate and that's supposed to be

bad why is that bad because women are

second class

citizens right so to be allegedly like a

woman and express vulnerable emotions is

a bad thing because you shouldn't be

like a woman why

not you know I mean so

expressing vulnerable emotions I think

men are starting to catch up you know

don't women like

strength yes and no they like strength

but the problem is is that they also

want to be

empathetic too they want to be you know

nourishing to their partner and if their

partner is always presenting this facade

of strength they can't get close to them

it's like the of connection yeah but you

know we we observed 8-year-olds in

playgrounds uh and if you if you look at

eight-year-old boys they'll do run and

chase games over a very large distance

and if an emotional event happens if

somebody gets upset you know say what's

the matter Brian says the leader of the

group say I never get the ball okay toss

the ball to Brian Brian gets the ball

and they're of and running they keep the

game in Play

manage conflict quickly look at two look

at girls they're playing in groups of

two or three close to the school

building and they're talking about their

feelings over and over again you know

you said that I was a baby you know cuz

I had those barrettes that really hurt

my feelings yeah well I you know I I

only wear barrettes when when I was

little and now I don't wear them you

know but that hurt my feelings when you

said that so I didn't mean to hurt your

feels they're talking about emotions

constantly and it's like the Hopscotch

or whatever game they're playing is just

an excuse for talking about emotions for

the boys the most important thing is

keeping the ball in play and conflict

gets in the way of that they resolve it

quickly they socialized so

differently is this part the reason why

it feels for many men that they are

being held off all the time because it

actually what's happening is the their

wife is just expressing their emotions

and the man never really expresses it

you know that old sort of slightly

problematic phrase which is happy wife

happy life that's right the reason why

that phrase exists I would assume is

because the man thinks as long as I can

keep her from expressing more problems

to me then I'm happy he like thinks of

his responsibility is just like yeah ask

a man how he's feeling he says well I'm

not hungry I'm not horny uh I'm

okay ask a woman how she's feeling she

says well I don't know know there's

there's you know the children and

there's this and the house and you know

and there's this tangle of questions

that really she has to address when you

ask her how she's feeling there's so

many things and for a guy it's so much

easier but John as man I think we can

both agree that although well I'm

speaking for myself here but although in

the moment going through that conflict

resolution the 90 minutes a week getting

out your notepad listening is annoying

in the moment when we zoom out we

realize that

if they didn't raise these issues if

they didn't Express these issues this

relationship wouldn't be so good that's

right and would' be in serious that's

right they're the managers of intimacy

yeah we need

them yes we need them to

say stepen we need to

talk yeah did you see Steven's face that

was so cutie oh it's true I realize it I

realize that this is serving a purpose

which is helping me you know

us right so I sit there and I'll listen

to you know the things that um the

things that aren't right but you're

right my brain is just like me and my

friends can sit in silence for8 hours

sat right next to each other and we'll

meet each other sit in silence for eight

hours leave great evening great evening

great we both we both like doing our own

thing but it's just I think men are such

simple creatures most of the time oh you

are not that is so not true you know one

of of the things that I've certainly

seen in my my work you know I've been

doing clinical work for 50 years and

what I see is that men have exactly the

same emotions they do they just try to

bury them because it's not okay for them

to express them so they just try to

shove it down but open a little door

crack and up it comes lion old Tiger who

studied men's friendships and women's

friendships said with alcohol men get

together they're very physical and they

talk about their feelings an enormous

amount takes a little alcohol to make it

happen two women said to me last night

that I was speaking to um on uh WhatsApp

um people that I work with in a

different company they were saying to me

that their Partners often express how

they're feeling by just sending songs

out of the blue sending songs sending

songs out of the blue i' never heard of

it because one of them said it and and

the other woman said oh my God my

partner does that too which is instead

of like telling me how he feels he'll

send me a song which just which is

basically how he feels yeah um and some

of those songs are very romantic and

it's like I love you you're the best

person I've ever found but instead they

he they can't he can't vocalize it to

her so he has to send her a Spotify link

and say listen listen to

this but it's the same thing right it's

the that's right inability to to

vocalize which is yep difficult for men

keep working on it

I am yeah I'm like progressively getting

better but sometimes I have little

relapses if you if I am very busy in my

mind and then I have to have one of

those we need to talk chat so I think

you're right there needs to be a bit of

a ritual around like is this a good

time that's right yeah will I have your

attention or you know even being in a

different environment like well you can

make you know make a date to have a talk

like that when we are giving couples

workshops at the very end of it we

always uh give recommendations for ways

of preserving the changes you're making

in the relationship the improvements and

one of them is called the state of the

union meeting right where you start with

five appreciations of each other you

know things you haven't said before that

you've noticed that your partner is

doing right and express your gratitude

or thanks or your

admiration then you go into okay so what

do we need to change what do we need to

improve right and then you finish up

with this beautiful question I just love

this question how can I make you feel

loved this

week and that's

closure you mentioned the word

there

gratitude yes why is gratitude so

important being grateful for them and

expressing that it's something that you

two both du to each other I think I I

think it's indicative of a habit of mind

that's that's really much more important

a habit of Mind where you're noticing

what's going right and feeling

appreciative for it and I I know I wake

up every morning lying next to Julian

and think I'm one lucky guy you know

I've got this wonderful woman and you

know life is good I go through my

checklist everybody's okay all all the

people I love her all right and I'm with

her and I get to see my grandson you

know and my daughter life is

good yeah yeah you know I think

gratitude brings you into the moment

brings you into the moment you know so

and as John pointed out uh you're not

just looking for what's wrong you know

or what your partner is doing wrong

you're looking for what your partner is

doing right

um you know there's been studies who was

it chrysson Robinson I guess um who

looked at unhappy couples versus happy

couples and unhappy it wasn't that they

weren't doing things for one another but

unhappy couples only saw

50% of what their Partners were doing

the positivity of the positivity right

whereas happy couples were seeing it all

the time it's like they're wearing

different sunglasses or something a

different fil different filters well and

the negative habit of mind you know

really puts you in a state of being kind

of irritable and grumpy all the time you

know you're noticing other people are

driving badly and you know and being

careless and making mistakes all the

time and that's all that's all you

see because gratitude puts you on a

different frame of mind so you notice

actually all the good stuff that's going

on right let me draw ACC let me draw a

parallel one of the things that uh I've

done in my private practice I still do

is treat cancer patients in their

families and cancer patients of course

often are facing the possibility of

death

so one of the questions uh and

oftentimes I mean the ones who deal with

their diagnosis best are people who say

okay

I don't have that long to live I'm going

to repr prioritize my life I'm going to

really think about what's most important

to me for the six months I have left so

one of the things that I do in my

practice with

couples um who are just racing through

life together on Parallel tracks not

connecting at

all

uh is to ask them okay you know if you

had 6 months left to

live how would you want to spend it who

would be the most important people that

you would want to draw close

to who would you not value as much how

would you want to spend that six months

and I I first kind of take people into a

very relax state so their minds are

really free to

imagine uh and and what's what's that

doing is it helping to crystallize

whether they should be with this person

uh clarify sometimes but it's more that

oh my God you know I'm wasting my life

trying to make more

money why am I doing that when I've got

this love right here what's more

important to me making more money or

creating more love between us that's

what it comes down to often times

when do you know how do you know when to

quit a relationship how do I know if the

relationship I'm in is bad is not good

because relationships are incredibly

tempting they tempt us back they offer

Comfort which sometimes necessarily

isn't healthy Comfort but they're very

hard to leave and I actually had a

conversation with one of my friends

recently I always talk about my friends

because it's the only way I know to draw

on case studies so instead of me just

hypothetical coming with something

hypothetical I think about the the

challenges my friends face and got

friend who's been in a relationship for

many many years seven eight years um

relationship is broken broken down and

he naturally because the relationship is

broken down is like jumping to repair

but I

wonder if he should even repair because

they've broken up six times they've gone

through this cycle six times so I'm like

are they just rushing back together for

the comfort of the

relationship or um should do they you

know take a moment to say is this even

right but this also the answer here

applies to people that are in

relationships that have those thoughts

in their mind is this the right one how

do you know how do you know if this is a

problem we can solve and should solve or

this is just the wrong

person therapy helps M has your friend

gone to therapy good therapy not with

their partner no then they don't know

you know in other words a lot of people

um

don't know how to deal with Conflict for

example nobody's taking relationships

oneone in high school right to learn how

to deal with conflict or to learn how to

be more vulnerable to somebody else and

be more open and so on so people don't

know how to have good relationships

that's part of what drives the work that

John and I do people just don't know how

to do it and if they did know they could

change those patter patterns and so you

know with your friend for example often

times you know when people have been

together for over you know a couple of

years they create patterns that are like

dark holes you know they're like black

holes that have this tremendous

gravitational pole and so they keep

sinking down in the same patterns over

and over and over and over again right

that's well exactly what Happ your but

you can change those patterns once you

know and practice what the alternatives

are oh okay well I think it's I think

it's not the partner the pattern an

alternative pattern yes I think when

that fund us and admiration system you

know the system of affection and respect

love and respect is gone and gets

replaced by denigration belittling

contempt that's a ton to bail and you've

seen this in your work oh yeah this is

like much of what you guys you know are

known for is this and whenever I hear

people talking about the goans they're

always talking to me about the idea of

contempt and The Four Horsemen

right see those things can change too

those things can change too that often

is what constitutes the bad pattern or

there's been so much of that that now

they avoid each other all together and

there's huge emotional distance what are

the four Horsemen and before we talk

about how we would go about changing if

possible these things for anyone that

doesn't know and how you found these

four

horsemen uh well Bob Lon and I when we

doing our research we first the first

thing we looked at was what's the ratio

of positive to negative emotion in a

conversation so how did you conduct this

experiment really just observing couples

talking about how their day

went wait wait wait bring them into the

lab first of all what's the lab uh the

lab was a room where they sat facing one

another there were video cameras here

and there that were focused

on each individual and their faces and

their body language um there was what

was called a jigal ometer how much they

moved in their chairs you know how much

the chairs move physiological measures

what was happening to their heart rate

you know as well velocity respiration

respiration conductance and all of that

all of that data that was pulled from

those measures was all synchronized you

know hundredth of a second by hundredth

of a second and they would talk for

let's say 15 minutes about the events of

the day and then they were asked to talk

about a problem they hadn't solved and

to try and solve it or talk about it so

that you know ends up being conflict and

then a positive topic and then a

positive topic or in in the apartment

lab they just hung out for you know 12

hours before they went to sleep and the

cameras just rolled while we collected

physiological data so that raal SPI on

them you really SPI spied on them right

except they knew they were

be for 12 hours you watch them just sort

of chill and hang out together couple

that's right how many couples have you

130 and how many couples have been in

the lab in total 3,000 3,00 000 and they

were followed you know so then they'd be

brought back every couple of years right

uh to see how the relationship changed

right so the procedures would be

repeated every couple of years for as

long as 20 years and what did you find

happen so that the initially that ratio

of positive to negative interaction even

talking about how their day went or

especially during Conflict for people

who were in happy stable relationship it

average five positives for every

negative positives about the other

person or about no just positive emotion

like let's describe positives so a

positive can be nodding your head it can

be smiling it can be asking a question

humor validation showing interest

interest in the other person uh negative

would be anger irritability

disappointment hurt disgust contempt uh

shared humor was another big positive

that turned out to be very important

that so that ratio of positive to

negative averaged five to one in

relationships that were stable and happy

during conflict during conflict and

point8 to one in relationships that were

headed for disaster either splitting up

or being together

unhappily uh but certain negatives were

much more predictive of relationship

demise and they were criticism

defensiveness contempt and

stonewalling so let's define what those

are so criticism means blaming a problem

on a personality flaw of your partner

like you're so lazy you'd never think to

clean up the kitchen wouldn't you or God

you're thoughtless you didn't even call

me when you were going to be late you

know thoughtless lazy inconsiderate

selfish okay making about personality

and their character that's right that's

a criticism contempt is the worst that's

sulfuric acid for a

relationship um where you're looking

down your nose with

disgust as well as criticism of the

partner superiority so give me an

example of that you're such an idiot you

know you just never get things right you

know it's just you're just not like me

you know I I'm thoughtful and cons

consider it and you're just you're just

you're stupid you're a narcissist right

you know right so there there's the

criticism but it's making yourself

Superior to that other person MH and

there's a little disgust in it you know

s kind of stuff sarcasm is a good

example mockery you know especially in

front of people yeah right awful so the

person says well I really care how you

feel you really care how I feel you

know so that's contempt Stow malling is

really emotional with don't forget

defensiv and defensiveness yeah so every

defensiveness is the one we all have

it's so hard to get over which is you

know you either kind of whine like an

innocent victim you know I did too pay

the bills on time what do you mean I'm

thoughtful I'm thoughtful I am

thoughtful don't you remember blah blah

blah or it's Counterattack oh yeah

you're so perfect huh you never clean up

the kitchen you know it's that

Counterattack do you find that insecure

people are more defensive sure I have

this like theory that if your

self-esteem and your self- perception of

yourself is fragile then anyone poking

at it at all causes such extreme pain

right that you like you live in a this

state of like I have never done anything

wrong I can't I've do anything wrong and

if someone points out something you've

done wrong it's so painful if you're

insecure right walking on anything yeah

exact it's like a playing with like an

open wound yeah it's like you're a

walking burn victim yeah you know the

way I describe it um because I've been

there I know what that's like is you

know the the Earth if you take uh a

picture of the Earth and the Earth has

this very thin crust on it and then you

go down some layers and in the center is

this boiling hot lava you know

uh that burns you to death well somebody

says to you why didn't you pay the bills

on

time and the Earth opens up you fall

through that crack and straight down

into that hot lava of self loathing that

is Agony absolutely and you feel like

you're getting burned to death so you

can't allow yourself to step into that

crack and say oh God you're right right

I

didn't so you defend you defend oh yeah

well I'm the one who does all the bill

paying what are you doing you know it's

defensiveness well in that case it

sounds like that's fundamentally linked

to some kind of trauma because paying

the you didn't pay the bills to the

average person would be yeah I know

sorry my bad but if that's linked to

maybe I don't know your childhood where

your your father or your mother or the

bullies on the playground told you that

you always you're so forgetful Steve or

Julie you're the most forgetful person

ever in the and they punched

you you could get to you know 40 can't

be yeah can be can be and then

stonewalling this was one that was so

fascinating because you could have you

know a pair of people sitting just like

this looking perfectly normal but you

notice that one is completely shutting

down not showing anything on their face

in their body maybe looking away or just

glaz Ed you know looking and not saying

a word and that's not for seconds it's

for minutes and what's actually going on

because these guys you know John and his

colleagues measured

physiology is that they feel so attacked

that their heart rates are zooming up

above 100 beats a minute which just

sitting here secting cortisol and

adrenaline massively and so they're

shutting down yeah it's a terribly it's

going into fight ORF flight only you're

not facing a

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whatever issue they keep smashing into