we know the couples have lived together

before the marriage actually increases

the probability that the relationship

will fail and the reason for that is

very straightforward and talking of

things that risk harming relationships

subject we've never spoke about before

is oh yeah and that's a huge reason sex

has disappeared people need to stop

doing that Jordan Peterson the

psychology Professor people love or love

to hate he's undeniably one of the

greatest intellectual phenomenons on the

planet and many view him as the ultimate

Father Figure welcome back Mr Peterson

we're built for maximal Challenge and

that isn't the way we view ourselves in

the modern world we view ourselves as

built for consumption and pleasure for

example watching pornography but what

are the downstream consequences of that

well first of all it's easy to get what

sexual gratification but does it matter

oh it's a catastrophe you're not

desperate anymore and if you're going to

have the true adventure of your life

you're going to need love shame guilt

desperation and pain like it's hard but

now people take the easy Road like

avoiding Conflict for example and I

spent a lot of time studying evil it

arises when good men hold their tongue

now you may suffer some consequences of

speaking but retreating one step at a

time defensively that it makes you sick

of yourself there's nothing worse that

can happen to you you want your life to

be unbearably entertaining and maybe all

the sorrow and catastrophe has to be

part of it because otherwise

there's there's nothing about it that's

glorious this has always blown my mind a

little bit 53% of you that listen to the

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continue to do what we do thank you so

much your book comes at a really

interesting time in my life personally

your book is called we who wrestle with

God and it's my belief and suspicion

that there's a lot of people wrestling

with God at the moment and when I say

the word God I don't necessarily mean

some man in the sky with a beard what I

really mean is a greater meaning a

greater sense of meaning um the world

feels like and you speak to this in the

book that it's gotten more and more

individualistic and there's consequence

to that fractionated is another way of

thinking about it right because you can

think about it as individualistic and

that's a positive spin so to speak but

alienated isolated and fractionated is

the what would you say is the

accompaniment to that see I think I

think I think the case is is that the

liberal

experiment in individualism only works

when the conservative Foundation is in

place right if you aggregate people

together and they share enough

fundamental values especially of a

particular sort then you can concentrate

on the individual and individual freedom

but there's a lot of preconditions for

that and you know the Scottish liberals

so the ones who really established

Western liberalism as a philosophical

and political movement they knew that

you know it

was individual

liberty judeo-christian substructure and

that was an assumption now the problem

with modern liberalism is that that

underlying Foundation has become

extremely shaky and everyone feels it

that's what the culture wars about

fundamentally and that fact is

invalidating the fractionated liberal

experiment partly see it's partly

because we have the wrong conception of

identity fundamentally identity is a

hierarchical structure

so we kind of think that you end at your

boundaries as an IND individual but you

don't

because well you're probably not not

going to want to be alone so then let's

say you're married okay so

now your identity as a husband that's a

social identity and then you're you have

an identity as a father that's a social

identity then you have an identity as a

member of your community and a member of

your city and a member of your state and

a member of your nation and

then you're involved in a metaphysical

Endeavor that constitutes the foundation

for the nation let's say that's would be

one nation under God that's one way of

thinking about it or you could think

about it as the self-evident truths that

underly the state your identity exists

at all those levels and then your mental

health isn't something you carry around

in your head it's the harmony that

exists or doesn't exist between all

those levels and that isn't how liberal

individualists think about identity at

all and that's because they were for a

long time fortunate enough so all those

other strata were in place so where do

we find ourselves now if we don't have

that hierarchy and we aren't held in

place by all those layers and sort of

Social and I guess family

identities a drift in a storm

alone so look here's here's an

interesting fact

so Psych ologists who are statistically

minded they're called psychometricians

they're psychologists who are obsessed

research psychologists who are obsessed

with measurement and concept

definition spent a lot of time

aggregating Concepts these were in some

ways what they were doing was equivalent

to the development of early large

language models so psychologists were at

the Forefront of

that on the statistical side

words that we use to describe people

Clump

together so for example if you're

extroverted you're social and you're

happy you're

enthusiastic okay so those Clump

together if

you're anxious you're also you also tend

to be frustrated disappointed grief

stricken and in pain all the negative

emotions

Clump words associated with your empathy

aggregate words associated with your

dutifulness Aggregate and so do words

associated with creativity those are the

five fundamental dimensions of

temperament one of the words that clumps

with negative emotion is

self-consciousness which means that

self-consciousness is so tightly

associated with suffering that they're

not conceptually

distinguishable which means literally

the more you think about yourself the

more miserable you

are and it it it makes sense when you

understand how social people are we're

so

social that you can take the most

antisocial human beings imaginable so

Psychopathic

criminals and you can punish them by

putting them in solitary confinement

that's how social human beings are and

so your mental health is way more

dependent on your nesting within a

social structure than than on your say

the internal coherence of your belief

systems in fact I think it's hardly at

all dependent on the internal

consistency of your coherence of your

belief systems it's more like does

anyone like you do you have any friends

do you have anyone that loves you or

more or maybe even more profoundly are

there people for whom you make

sacrifices right that's a very that's

it's relevant to the topic of this book

obviously because the relationship with

the Divine in the stories that I'm

detailing in this book most of them are

Old Testament Stories the relationship

with the Divine is a sacrificial

relationship the Divine is that to which

sacrifice is directed well if you get

married it's a

sacrificial offering because you

sacrifice your potential relationship

with all other women to that

woman what does one dra an individual

level if they find themselves in such a

society where individualism has taken

hold um and they can't necessarily

easily change the society are there

daytoday week to week choices that I'm

making that are pushing me away from

that meaning and purpose and sort of uh

Collective I guess sense of

responsibility like the individual

listening to this now that completely

agrees with you finds himself as being a

lonely person and goes what do I do

about this Jordan well one of the things

you do with disagreeable people who are

more inclined by temperament to be

competitive and attain victory for

themselves is one of the exercises you

can do with disagreeable people if

you're a disagreeable extrovert you tend

to be narcissistic and the problem with

that technically is that you alienate

people and the problem with that is

while you're

no doubt learned this more as you become

successful it's like you need a team and

right and the more and the more tightly

knit it is and the more you're all

working in the same direction the better

everything works well you it's not

useful to be a narcissist because maybe

you get what you want right now this

time but as a propagating strategy

across time it's a degenerating game

okay so what do you do well instead of

thinking about what you want or even

thinking about how to strategize in

relationship to your goals you might

think about what you could do to for

other people or you could think about

what you would do if you only did what

was true and right those are very

different orientations right and the

religious orientation fundamentally is

the orientation towards what is true and

right and you might say well I don't

know what's true and right it's like

yeah kind of because our knowledge is

bounded and we're ignorant so do we

understand the nature of the highest

good well no but it's a very rare person

who doesn't know some of the time when

they're doing something

wrong and it's also a non-existent

person who doesn't have some concept of

the good because you can't act without a

concept of the good because you act

towards a goal you deem desirable so

that's up I mean unless you're trying to

make your life worse and people do do

that from time to time but believe that

as an exception I mean you have

to you have to have descended into Hell

in a way before you're in a situation

where you're actively working to make

your own life worse that can happen but

assuming that

you're relatively well embedded in the

realm of the normal then you're moving

towards something better always because

otherwise there's no motivation we we

know this technically this isn't even

disputable

so the positive emotion systems that

make you enthusiastic so that fill you

with the desire to move towards a

goal independent of fear say you know

because you could move towards a safety

goal because you're afraid but imagine

you're trying to accomplish something

you have a goal the positive emotion

systems operate to track progress to the

goal positive emotion is a consequence

of evidence of movement towards the

desired goal okay so now you have a

proximal goal you know like our proximal

goal right now might be just to like in

the most micro level possible might be

to display facial signs of interest in

the conversation right it's very micro

goal but then that's nested in our

desire to have an interest in

conversation on the topic we're having

right now and then inside the podcast as

a whole and then as part of the podcast

Enterprise that you're involved in as

part of the book Enterprise let's say

that I'm involved in that's nested

inside our view of the world right so

you see there there are nestings of the

good that have no upper limit that's

Jacob's Ladder by the way and at the top

of that is the good

itself which is the Divine for all

intents and purposes Divine what do you

mean by that that's a

definition that that's what I mean is

that in the hierarchy of what's

good the Divine is the peak the top okay

right now you don't know what that

is that's also an insistence in the

biblical texts by the way in the final

analysis the Divine is ineffable it's

not

definable and it's beyond you and that's

partly because it's there's a practical

reason for that even you know this as

well as you move towards a goal let's

say you attain a goal okay now you've

accomplished well are you done it's like

no a new potential goal emerges a new

Pinnacle and then maybe you'll

accomplish that but then a new one

exists and so you could say that the the

domain of the the domain of opportunity

is

Limitless right because the thing that's

at the Pinnacle recedes as you approach

it and that's a you could say that's a

technical definition of God which is

accurate that is a technical definition

of God God is the good towards which all

Goods

Point these are definitions again

remember they're not proclamations of

Faith they're definitions so we

obviously all believe that all good

things share something in common because

otherwise we wouldn't have the category

good and then we all believe that there

are rank orders of good because

otherwise everything good would be

equally worth pursuing No One Believes

that so there's a rank order well if

there's a rank orders towards some end

or some Pinnacle you can also think

about it as a

foundation depends on which metaphorical

landscape you want to

inhabit then the question becomes well

how do you characterize that which is

the ultimate aim that which is is and

should be the ultimate aim well the

the stories on which our culture is

predicated characterize that in story do

you think many people have an ultimate

aim in their mind they they do whether

they know it or not how what do you mean

by that so like the average person

listening to this now do they are they

conscious at all of what they're no but

it's implicit okay one of the things the

psychoanalytic thinkers insisted on Carl

Young in particular was that everybody

acts out a

story sometimes it's a tragic story

sometimes it's the story of hell like

you're trapped in a story one way or

another now do you know the Contours of

your

story not necessarily I mean people are

often very bad at describing themselves

they don't know what they're up to that

doesn't mean they're not up to something

and you could also think about them as

the Battleground between Waring stories

that also happens that just means

they're

fractionated in their psyche you know

they're being pulled in many directions

at the same time someone said to me

actually yesterday they said an

interesting way to understand your self

narrative or your self story is to

answer the question if you were a

character a fictional character who

would you be and in that you figure out

whether you have this sort of heroized

story or if you're a victim so I ask you

that question yeah right absolutely

which fictional character would you

be bugs bud

bu Bugs Bunny's a trickster

character right

so yeah more serious

answer do you ever read the idiot

no yeah well I'm probably half idiot and

half rol

nikov that's another way of looking at

it why' you say that

the um character of the idiot in dov's

novel is a holy fool it's a strange

combination a person who's doing things

right in a manner that's I suppose not

obvious that

looks that can easily be confused

with naivity or foolishness

playfulness even I

suppose is that how you characterize

yourself someone that's doing things

right but in a way that others perceive

as foolishness or naivity or or even

malevolence at

times you know I mean that's partly why

people have gone after my

reputation does it does it ever bother

you people going after your reputation

or them P sure I mean sometimes it's

like it's been very distressing very

distressing the battles I've had with

the College of psychologists in Ontario

those are no joke it's very very

stressful and

unconscionable so expensive hundreds of

thousands of dollars years it's been 10

years of legal battles um calumny in the

Press they're they're attempting to

undermine my professional credibility

with some degree of success you know

because when you're professional profal

College goes after

you people have to make a choice it's

either the professional colleg is

corrupt and wrong or the individual

being targeted is corrupt and wrong it's

way easier to draw the second conclusion

and under most circumstances in a valid

State that's the correct

conclusion so and it was very stressful

to find myself embattled at the

university University of Toronto I liked

working there that place had its

problems but it was pretty functional

and and I likeed being there I I I

enjoyed my career as a professor I had

great relationships with the

undergraduates and my graduate students

I love doing my research which has also

disappeared um

so

now those are the

serious disputes that I've had

reputationally let's say um there's a

lot of casual reputation savaging that I

don't really care about from journalists

and so forth although sometimes that's

been pretty brutal because whenever that

happened

especially when things just started to

be developing around me let's say on the

public

stage when it when I encountered a

particularly Psychopathic journalist

which happened quite often particularly

in the UK um it was completely a toss up

which way it was going to go like it

could have just finished me and my

family that that was definitely the case

three or four five times maybe more than

that so yes it's very bothersome now now

and really for a long

time all of that takes place within a

much broader context all the

interactions I have with people in my

actual life are ridiculously positive

and what would you say positive and

gratifying you know so that's a form of

suffering in a way and everybody goes

through suffering and because you've

been through that have you been able to

develop a a strategy or a some kind of

anchoring that helps you when the wind

blows like that well yeah oh definitely

I

mean uh I had very strong

relationships when all of this started

to develop around me and that's just

become more the case a very tightly knit

family and a very tightly knit group of

friends now I lost some more peripheral

friends

but you know that's unfortunate but s so

there's that now is that a strategy um

well it's not exactly a strategy because

I didn't design it towards an end it was

more like an end in itself right I mean

I had kids not as a strategic move but

because I like kids so and I

particularly like my kids so

that's not a strategy and I really have

a great relationship with my wife and

like I've known her for 52 years it's a

very long time and uh she's definitely

my best friend and probably has been for

52 years and so that's really helpful

that that and that refers back to this

issue of identity that we were

discussing you know my identity is well

structured in in the social sense

and then in terms of strategy yeah I

mean I have a meta strategy I suppose I

just say what I

think right now is that a

strategy it depends on how you define

strategy it's not a strategy that's

designed to serve my ends not not in a

individualistic

way so I'm just trying to see what

happens if I say what I think that's a

way of navigating in the world right

it's an adventurous way of navigating in

the world because you don't know what's

going to happen you have to let go of

that and then there's a element of faith

in that right there's faith in

everything you do you know the the

empiricist types the scientific

reductionists they say well you can move

forward in the world without faith

that's complete bloody rubbish there

isn't anything you ever do that's

important that you don't do in light of

Faith it's like if you get married you

do that on the basis of the evidence do

you what bloody evidence do you have

you're 23 years old you don't know a

damn thing you know maybe you're in love

with the person that you want to marry

but you have no evidence whatsoever

about how your life is going to go none

you have to LEAP into the unknown like

you do with everything that's important

that's all Faith predicated now the

question is Faith in what well if you

decide that you're just going to say

what you think

then you have faith in the

truth at least in so far as you have

access to the truth is it true to say

that if you hadn't have said what you

think publicly then you would have

experienced less suffering than you have

no really I don't think so so if you had

said if you had stayed in your practice

you know as a clinicaly because I would

have had to not I would have had to bite

my tongue and you think that's more I

know it it's not a matter of thinking I

know it I know it

uh absolutely 100% I spent a lot of time

studying evil a lot of time and I know

how it arises it arises when good men

hold their tongue you don't want that

there's nothing worse that can happen to

you now you may suffer some consequences

of

speaking for sure but all things

considered which is the right attitude

if you're wise

there's nothing worse that can happen to

you than to falsify your

speech is saying nothing a form of

falsifying spee it is when you have

something to say yeah definitely because

there's a lot of people probably

listening now that have a lot they want

to say yeah but if they say it they're

going to lose their job or they're

there's going to be immediate

consequences which might mean they can't

feed their family yeah it might mean

that but it also might mean that if they

bite their tongue and pretend to be

something other than they are they'll be

a weak model for

children and you know is that better

than having some Financial

instability Maybe here's a counter

proposition if your job requires you to

lie maybe you should find another

job now look I also understand that

there are strategic considerations in

such a decision there's no sense

martyring yourself stupidly and if

you're going

to say what you believe to be the case

then you need to put yourself in a

position where doing so won't be

instantly catastrophic in a way you

can't fix because that's not a good

that's not

wise now when things blew up around me I

had three sources of

income that wasn't

accidental now you know people say well

you are fortunate it's like

yeah and careful mhm so I didn't want

have all my eggs in one basket and that

turned out well I knew that it's like

you have no autonomy if you have all

your eggs in one basket so if you're

going to think strategically if you're

going to think like someone who's at war

let's say then you don't leave your you

don't leave

a mortal flank

exposed and so if you know here's a rule

if you find yourself in a position where

you're unable to speak you haven't

fortified your territory

properly right so then you have to think

about that it's like you think okay why

can't I say what I believe to be the

case where am I

vulnerable and you can say well that's

inevitable it's like no it's not it's

not

inevitable that doesn't mean it isn't

difficult to to fortify and to put

yourself in a position

where you're on the offense successfully

that's hard but retreating One Step at a

Time defensively for your whole life and

shrinking while you do it that's also

not very that's also difficult it's just

the kind of difficult that wears you

down and makes you sick of

yourself that's not a good that's not a

good plan that's a bad

plan and did you see this when you were

in your clinical practice did you see it

in people oh constantly how does it show

up on the surface what are the words

that they say to articulate that this

sort of slow diminishing retraction oh

you see that in people's marriages all

the time when marriages

deteriorate a marriage ends in divorce

when there's 10,000 fights that haven't

been

had and I really I'm I'm not just

guessing at that number it's like let's

say your marriage isn't going very well

and so you have

five

uncomfortable quasi disputes a day mhm

just to pick a number maybe it's 50

maybe it's three whatever five will do

well that's 1500 a year okay now you

just aggregate that

over let's say the 10 years it takes

your marriage to

collapse well you've got something

approximating 10,000 fights you didn't

have that's 10,000 times you remain

silent when you had something to say and

they all Aggregate and then every time

once you've collected the first

5,000 then every time you have a dispute

all 5,000 are lurking behind that

dispute and the fact of their existence

makes it much less likely that you'll

say what you have to say that's the

reemergence of the Dragon of chaos as a

consequence of fleeing from your fate

that's exactly right last time we spoke

you said something which stayed with me

and I've actually forwarded it to a few

of my friends on this particular subject

you said to me you're going to have to

sit and spend 90 minutes a week speaking

to your partner yeah so annoying it's so

annoying it's so annoying but it's so

important and so many of my friends that

are in have relationship difficulties I

send them just a little four minute clip

I have on my phone of you saying that

because the 90 minute no it might be 95

minutes it might be 85 minutes but the

concept of you need to sit down and

create a space where she or he or

whatever can tell you what they've

noticed why they don't like you exactly

yeah yeah yeah well it's especially I

think

I don't think that you can really

establish the kind of relationship with

a woman that you want with anything in

the

road like it's hard for women to give

themselves to men and no wonder it's

amazing they ever do it they have a lot

on the

line what are the preconditions for that

offering

uh peace and

security you can tell if if it's if the

territory is being cleared because play

emerges right right play emerges and

play is a very fragile motivational

state it can be disrupted by almost

anything so if there are impediments to

understanding play will not arise and

then you don't have the romantic

adventure that you want it's

grudging right you don't have a

voluntary partner and that's a very hard

thing to attain right that full

voluntary partnership that means that

you're in sync with each other MH you

can't expect that to be easy you can't

even be in sync with yourself like it's

hard and you need to keep each other up

to date you need to know what's going on

you need to iron out the sources of

discomfort or distrust and that there's

a lot of Dante's Inferno what's that

that well Dante's

Inferno is a characterization of Hell by

by Dante by it's one of the most famous

poems ever written and it's it's you

could think about it as what you have to

do to get to the bottom of things so

let's say that you have a dispute with

your wife and it's a recurring

dispute right it's an issue you have an

issue well do you want to address the

issue it's like do you want want to do

surgery without anesthetic like it's the

same question addressing an issue is a

journey into the

abyss Dante placed Satan at the bottom

of hell right so that's the figure of

malevolence itself encased in ice and

Frozen so immobile surrounded by those

who betray that's the lowest level of

hell why well it's often the case that

if you journey into an issue spiral down

to the bottom you'll find

betrayal right cuz maybe your partner

doesn't trust you because she was

betrayed highly probable highly probable

or her grandmother was betrayed like you

know there's bad blood between men and

women can you have a solve for that so

if I'm in a situation where my partner

doesn't trust me because she was

betrayed whether it's something I did or

whatever how do you ever get rid of the

devil at the bottom of the Spiral well

you have to you have to find out that

it's there okay that's a hard question

you both have to want

to that's the first thing because that's

the setting of the aim what do we

want we want to play Forever in God's

Heavenly Garden how about that that's a

metaphorical representation right but

that's a wall Garden that's the human

environment the walls are the walls of

your house the garden is

nature displaying itself in its beauty

within boundaries that's a place that

play can take place that's what you want

you got to think about it what do you

want okay so now we might ask what do

you mean want okay if you were taking

care of yourself and you could have what

was good for you what would that be now

that's a hard question right you're

going to have to think about that for a

long time what would satisfy something

as someone as miserable and resentful

and useless as me

right if I could have it now people will

they don't even want

to address that issue be because part of

the problem with making your aim clear

is you know when you're failing and

people would rather keep the evidence of

their failure obscured from themselves

even if it meant continued failure but

now let's say you decide not to do that

you're going to think okay I'm going to

aim high I'm going to take care of

myself okay now your wife's on Lord with

that now that's a hell of that's a

that's really what the marital vow is in

the final analysis most deeply is that

willingness to participate in that

game now you have to tell each other the

truth what the hell do you want well she

doesn't know and neither do you not

really so you got to start digging

finding out and you and noticing it's

like now and then you'll see that you're

happy with each other and maybe it'll

happen kind of randomly you'll be out in

some I don't know maybe you're at a

restaurant or you're gone for a walk or

who knows and you'll notice oh this is

going well it's like oh yeah this is

going well what are we doing right could

we take that little episode and could we

start to expand it you know because one

of the things you can do in our marriage

is you can notice when things are going

well and then you can have a chat with

each other and say look I don't know

what we did during this period of time

but let's see if we can figure it out

see if we could do like 10% more of that

next week or one % more and then just

make that expand you can do that too by

you know hypothetically at some point if

you're married at some point you were in

love with your wife you can remember

that you have to remember that you have

to practice remembering that you have to

practice bringing it to mind and

occupying that because when you first

fall in love it kind of happens to you

right that's a gift but you have to in

order for that to last you have

to become an expert at you have to

become an expert at it you have to take

it on as a responsibility it's offered

as a gift but then you have to take it

on as a responsibility then you have to

practice it's like oh yes I love this

person and if you don't at the moment

you have to think well I did and I could

so why don't I is it

me that's probably it's

you might be them too but you might as

well start with you I mean you got lots

of flaws you could start with those what

if you just made a bad decision as in

like the person you picked you think

they're not

compatible well you stand a tough one a

because you're not really compatible

with anyone you know people think well

I'll find the right person it's like

first of all no you won't second if you

found the right person and they ever saw

you they just run away screaming so it's

just the whole conceptual scheme is

wrong I when I was on tour there was one

three-day period where the same question

emerged from the audience because I do a

Q&A three nights in a row how do I find

the person that's right for me and I I

tried answering it and by the third

night I thought oh I know why I can't

answer this question it's because it's a

stupid question it's badly formulated

like profoundly badly formulated fatally

badly formulated it's not the right

question the right question

is how could I learn to offer something

to someone else that would make me

eminently desirable that's a way

different question like it's so they're

not even in the same conceptual universe

and it's the right question because you

can build yourself into a person that

people would line up to be with how

how well have you done

it to some well you told me not you're

very successful right you you're

increasingly successful your book warns

against narcissism Jordan so yeah

there's there's a difference between

narcissism and giving the devil is Du

you've look okay let let's pull back a

little bit what have you done right I

have focused on myself for a long time

and okay what does that mean it means I

fortified myself financially okay so

that I'm I'm you know I can support

others I can support a family so that's

not exactly focusing on yourself right

okay that's focusing on getting your act

together and I'm being very picky about

the words because focus on yourself that

has a

narcissistic connotation but that that

isn't what you're talking about you said

you fortified yourself financially okay

so now you're you you you you have

Foundation under your feet financially

okay okay good what else

I go to the gym so I'm strong physically

strong okay um which is useful um I've

learned a lot okay a lot of learning

about myself about how I show up in the

world right so you're trying to learn

yes I've learned skills so well so

there's three things that are pretty

good yeah you've got a firm Financial

Foundation you've you're work you're

you're maintaining yourself physically

or even improving yourself and you're

doing the same thing say spiritually and

and intellectually okay well that

attract a fair number of people just

those three right and maybe you're

increasing the probability that will

attract the sort of person that you

would like to attract that is very much

the story of my life like I think don't

think people realize this but I've

actually been on I think four dates in

my entire life I'm 32 and I took this

really counter sort of seems

counterintuitive approach to myself

which was as an 18-year-old I basically

couldn't attract anybody I was also not

on dating apps I wasn't doing so my for

10 years I basically focused on myself

and you know 27 years old someone

messaged me and I went on it and this is

how I am like if I'm going to go on a

date it's going to be I'm going to go

all in it was a three-day date that I

planned in an Excel document I've been

with that person for six years so I feel

like I didn't date I didn't go to bars

and try and like you know that's worth

taking apart I'm I like I like to do

arithmetic with my clients like people

hate arithmetic and it's no wonder

because it's so sad aage so I'll give

you an example so 15 years

ago I counted the number of times I

would see my

parents it's like 20 times so then I

knew

that right 20 isn't very

many right how many people do you get to

try on in your

life five if you're lucky if you're

attractive and fortunate you get five

cracks at the p

five isn't very many and people think

well it's a there's plenty of fish in

the sea it's like that doesn't mean

they're going to swarm around you buddy

right it's and maybe it's even worse for

women because their time frame is is

very short you know like if a woman

isn't in a

relationship family relationship by 30

then it's starting to get pretty damn

rough and that's almost independent of

how attractive she is it's like you

don't have much time better get yourself

prepared when you say pretty damn rough

what you mean well to find a mate or to

have a child or both both well we know

now that at the present time in the west

half of women 30 and younger don't have

a

child okay now we also know that couples

30 one in three couples at 30 already

have trouble conceiving and that

definition of trouble is one year of

attempt with no success okay so

fertility goes off a cliff at 35 so 30

you're pushing your luck at 30 at 35 you

are seriously pushing your luck I worked

for 10 years with a strata of the

highest achieving women likely in Canada

I had as part of my clinical practice

a offering that we made to consulting

firms and law firms and the offer was

send us your best people

and we'll work for them but the

consequence of that is that they'll be

even more productive so in the typical

Law Firm for example there's people who

don't do well then there's people who

are good lawyers then there are people

who are good lawyers that bring in

business there's like none of them

they're super valuable and if a law firm

has someone like that they want to keep

them and they're often women half the

time let's say um and those were the

women I worked with a bunch of men too

but all concentrated on the women here

those were the women I was working with

and they

were generally extremely attractive

extremely intelligent very hardworking

and very focused on Career Development

and they were they' done very well in

junior high school and high school then

they you know aced college and their

lsats and then when they were articling

the firms snapped them up quickly and

then they rocketed up towards

partnership and then then they were 30

and they all thought what the hell am I

doing working 70 hours a week with a

bunch of insanely competitive

men right and that is the question it's

like what are you doing

exactly and then even if you're

radically successful let's say in your

law school career if you get run over by

a bus on the way to

work the waters just close over you at

the firm and the firm continues on it's

not like anyone

cares not really so now I'm I'm not

saying that people shouldn't pursue a

career I'm not saying that but I would

say even in my case and I'm male so that

makes a big difference because men are

also oriented towards status competition

victory in a way that women just aren't

not at least not in the career domain

and the reason for that it's very

straightforward and the the thing that

makes men

by default most attractive to women is

their comparative success in the

hierarchy of men it's a walloping

predictor and it's irrelevant to men

like men don't care at all whether women

are successful in their career it's not

a determinant of their attractiveness in

fact it's

often the

contrary well these women that I'm

talking about they were often alone why

well they're beautiful so that like

intimidated 90% of men right there

they're smart so that's another 90% of

the remaining 10% they're accomplished

and

Wealthy well like first of all who's

going to approach them and second who

are they going to accept because women

are hypergamous right is that does that

mean that men are insecure

and sort of emasculated by a strong

successful woman

sure yeah well but there's reason for

that like

it's not weakness on the part of men

exactly it's the desire of the woman to

find someone who brings a benefit to the

relationship and why well she because a

woman will make herself vulnerable when

she has a child and so she's looking for

a man who be helpful compared to

her okay so if the woman is like full of

ability well then her standards for a

guy who's going to be helpful get very

high and that's hard on her because it

decreases the pool of available

candidates

radically so like there's a negative

relationship between IQ and women and

the probability of being

married so it's harsh now is it are men

intimidated well yes obviously are men

intimidated by beautiful women well you

can answer

that especially if you're young why the

probability that any given beautiful

woman is going to reject you when you're

a young man is like it's basically 100%

now it's not exactly 100% And there are

exceptions but the default response is

rejection and beautiful women get hit

on you know a fair bit some of the it's

interesting because there's a bunch of

stats which I find quite interesting one

of them is that sexlessness is increas

is increasing people having less and

less yeah that's fascinating it's that's

fascinating does it matter

oh it's a catastrophe and and why are we

having less sex what is the complex web

of factors that have brought us to this

place I know something like well one of

them I would say is that me in a in a

free and easy mating environment women

don't trust men and no wonder well here

here here's a terrible thing to know

so imagine that there are men who are

oriented towards short-term

relationships and there are men who are

oriented towards long-term relationships

committed relationships right okay so

that would be the men who want love long

with sex let's say love and commitment

then there's the party today because

we're all dead tomorrow sort of guys and

there's some women like that too

although few are women because they pay

a much higher price for sexual

impropriety so the pool of short-term

maters has more men in it okay what do

they like well the personality Studies

have already been done they're aelan

which means they use their language to

manipulate they're narcissistic which

means they want unearned social status

they're Psychopathic which makes them

predatory parasites and they're sadistic

okay so now you open up the mating

market so that shortterm deanes are

acceptable you throw all the women into

the hands of the

Psychopaths well that's a bad strategy

and it's no wonder that it decimates the

mating Market because women are thinking

well are those men trustworthy and the

answer is

no and sex is costly like we have this

immature delusion that we can free sex

from like the grip of the oppressive

patriarchy let's say it's like no you

can't obviously you can't there's it

emotional entanglements are an

inevitable consequence of intimate

physical relationships there's that then

there's the issue of abortion and

pregnancy that actually con dutes a

problem and then there's sexually

transmitted disease and that's just like

the first of a very long list of

potential problems with sex so there's

no simple sexual landscape and there are

diluted people who think they're there

is a simple landscape and that there

should be but most they tilt hard in the

psychopathic Direction because they're

manipulative do you believe in no sex

before marriage as a

concept as an ideal yeah

yeah yeah that's

right and and why would that result in

better relationships and a better

Society more broadly well here's one way

of looking at it so let's say you take

the alternative approach okay um you're

going to try your partner on for size so

you live together well first of all we

know that couples who live together are

more likely to get divorced rather than

less we know that the probability of

cheating is

proportionate to the number of Partners

before the marriage or the committed

relationship well well partly that's

just self-evidence like the best

predictor of future behavior is past

Behavior right so if you had a lot of

Partners you're the sort of person who's

likely to have a lot of Partners and

then the there's also a conceptual

problem it's like is are you shopping

for a car it's like you're going to take

it out for a test drive and see how it

goes okay that's not the right

metaphor and

then here's another problem I'm going to

see what it's like to be married by

living with this person it's like no

you're not because you don't know what

it's like to be married until you're

married whatever you're doing when you

live together that's not a model for

what you're going to do when you're

married because being married is

different it's permanent so you're

saying don't live together before you

well I know the stats on living together

it's like you live with someone and and

then you marry them you're more likely

to get divorced it doesn't work like the

the the theory was you try it out and if

it works you go ahead with it yeah yeah

well the theory was wrong because that

isn't that isn't what happens it

actually increases the probability that

the relationship will fail it's also

partly you got to ask yourself what the

message is I know what the message is

when you live with someone it's pretty

straightforward you'll do unless someone

better comes along and I'll Grant you

the same opportunity but Jesus that

that's a hell of a foundation for a mar

for a like long-term relationship so you

saying go go from single to married and

living together straight away without

the like Tri on period Well I don't know

exactly what the trial period should be

I mean people have

dated and I'm also not saying that this

is simple it's not simp why would it be

simple it's not there isn't anything

more difficult that you do in your

entire life than find a partner and

establish a family it's like it's going

to hard how to do it optimally well I

can tell you in my own experience you

know like I I've known my wife since she

was eight and we were friends good

friends and we kind of departed from

each other during adolescence um I was a

year younger than everyone in my class

and she matured faster women do anyways

and so that kind of split us apart and

we didn't get married till I think we

were about 27 something like that 28 but

it would have been better to do it

earlier so get married Al you yeah it's

just time I didn't have with

her what case would you make to me for

marriage versus because I'm I'll be

honest I'm wrestling with marriage not

just God um I'm trying to understand

what the what the point of marriage is

versus the relationship we have now is

but I can have children in the

relationship I have now

yeah the general rule of thumb for life

is that you should do what other people

have done forever unless you have a

really good reason not to don't deviate

from the straight narrow path like you

are already deviating in all sorts of

ways you're very entrepreneurial MH

right so your life has a variety of

adventurous Pathways you're going to

want

to put Firm Foundation wherever you can

that'll actually free you up to do more

adventurous

things children are a multigenerational

commitment because it's children and

grandchildren

and so the the marriage is a signifier

of that and in order to stay with

someone optimally over the longest

period of time possible it has to be

serious and for something to be serious

you have to throw everything at it you

know and you might say well love is

enough it's

like that's a very naive view of the

world because there'll be

times because that's kind of like saying

well as long as we love each other and

we're happy we'll be together it's like

well if you're talking 40 years there's

going to be plenty of years in there

where you're not happy and you probably

don't love each other so what then

you're going to just is it just going to

dissolve or are you going to say we're

in this you know come hell or high water

which is the vow come hell or high and

hell in high water they're coming and

then you got to ask yourself you know is

this the person you want in the boat

with you when hell and high water come

and that's not going to be fun that's

for sure you want to do it alone or you

think that when everything falls apart

around you you're going to be in a

better position to find someone better I

don't think so it's a long and then you

know you you take the marital vow in a

religious sense and you do it in front

of a community right so it's it

signifies commitment and you need that

because like you think you can maintain

all that commitment on your own maybe

you can I doubt it generally people

can't like no one we need to fortify

ourselves in all sorts of ways to get

through the things in life that are most

difficult but the traditional marriage

agreement one that's a legal agreement

yeah does it need to be can can I not

take my partner have a wedding in front

of our friends and family sign a

contract maybe even do it in a sort of

relig religious context without having

it to be a Rel like a legal document

that the government are involved in well

you could but is it not the same bond to

you there you're talking about a

multitude of different bonds right

fundamentally right you're the the one

that you're prioritizing is the bond

that's voluntary and predicated on what

the love of the moment I mean we want to

be precise here right that so I think

that's a reasonably reasonable way of

conceptualizing it and it is a romantic

view that that should Prevail and it's a

romantic view that that should be

sufficient I don't think it there's it's

often the case that it doesn't Prevail

and it's generally the the case that

it's not sufficient and so then you

might say well maybe you want to add a

legal element to that and you want to

add a metaphysical element to it because

those are all fortifications MH and

they're indications even to yourself

that you're serious it's not like we

understand ourselves you know like

people are just as mysterious to

themselves as someone else is mysterious

to them you go ask yourself it's like

okay well

what

processes what do I have to put in place

to sure that

I'm doing the right thing well when

you're embarking on something difficult

like marriage then you better have

everything necessary in place if you and

Tammy hadn't got married yeah and you

were just in a relationship like I am

with my

partner how do you think your life would

be different and do you think you I

don't think it would have lasted you

don't think your life would have lasted

oh well relation that's that that's

undoubtedly true

I mean both of us just about died in the

last 5 years and I don't mean by a

little bit I mean like it

was touch and go for a long time

so it was a good thing everything was in

place through that I mean the the waters

were pretty high for the last three

years four years socially professionally

physically the what are you wrestling

with exactly like in this issue you know

I mean you're it seems like you're

trying to sort out the relationship

between the emotional attachment and the

personal attachment and the social

structures that say surround marriage

it's it's complicated because even any

answer I might give you is if you go

down that spiral you might find

something at the bottom of it that's not

what I'm saying so what I mean by that

is definitely just as you asked that

question I just got a glimpse of I just

had a bit of a flash toct my issues with

commitment and how I watched okay so

what you fantasy no I just I just

remember recalling feeling like my dad

was in prison when he was in in his

relationship so I think that's still so

now I can tell you what to do with that

so you bring those images to mind right

so you've got this question in mind you

just you just found out something you

said that there's something at the

bottom of this okay now if you watch

your fantasies they'll shed light on

this descent into the abyss so to speak

now you had a flash of memory okay that

memory is associated with all sorts of

things you can bring that to mind and

let it play itself out right and it'll

explore the Contours of the problem that

you're now you put your finger on a very

important problem you said that you saw

in your father someone who's trapped in

his marriage yeah well it's no bloody

wonder you're leery of that right so now

you okay so now the question would be

what was the nature of that entrapment

what evidence did you have that that was

in fact the case how much of that was

him how much of that was her and what is

it that they did wrong and right you

need to know all of that and you need to

know how it affected you that's a great

obser see that's so cool because that

very frequently happens to people when

they ask a question that's like a

revelation so you ask a question that's

like a prayer the question is is there

something at the bottom of my the

trouble I'm having conceptualizing

marriage okay now you want to know

that's the first precondition okay then

you'll get memory images like that and

then people shy away it's like I don't

want to go there it's like yeah that's

for sure you bloody well don't want to

go there but you do because if it's

there you will go there right it'll

plague you and it'll plague your life

it'll it'll show its head continually in

your relationship or you can get to the

bottom of it which is people will fight

their whole life with their partner to

avoid getting to the bottom of something

that's how terrifying it is to get to

the bottom of something right

but if you do get to the bottom of it

then you don't have to fight for 30

years so that's very much worthwhile and

it'll Enlighten you as

well you know because you're you have a

real issue it's like how can marriage

not be a trap Yeah well yeah right

definitely that's a very good question

and and an important one how can

marriage be a trap how can not being

married be a trap how can being alone

being a trap be a trap how can being

deluded Ed about what holds people

together be a trap there's traps

everywhere man there's traps everywhere

and so there's no risk-free mo pathway

forward there's just risk everywhere

okay so that's a really useful thing to

know then the question would shift to

something like well if I wanted to

construct a relationship that had that

was

optimized that's what you have to ask

yourself it's like and your and your and

your partner it's like what we doing

here what do we want Tammy and I decided

for example when we first got married we

I well I mentioned this to her right

away when we decided that we were going

to take things seriously it was like

we're going to tell each other the

truth so that was part of the vision

like no matter what no matter what yeah

no matter what she's been very good at

that I would say better than me I've

been good at it but she's been really

quite remarkably good at it she really

threw herself into it and I mean

that's that causes an complete

transformation but there's plenty of

skeletons in the closet to be revealed

God that's for sure talking of things

that risk harming relationships one of

the things I wanted to ask you about

subject we've never spoke about before

but it ties into the themes of

relationships marriage and um and sex is

pornography and generally oh another

reason that sex has disappeared yeah

right right you talk about headism in

your book um we who wrestle with God

pornography is this a bad thing is a

terrible thing yeah it's a terrible

thing everything about it is terrible

really well first of all it's addictive

and no wonder I mean any 13-year-old

boy can now look at more

beautiful naked women in one day

than the greatest King who ever lived

managed in his whole

life right so it's like wow that's not

and talk me through the downstream

consequences of such a possibility easy

it's easy yeah it's easy to get what

sexual gratification that's not good

it's not supposed to be easy and it's

easy

so how desperate do you have to be to

get married

not desperate at all it's like yeah

right what do you know you don't know

anything I'm married just because I'm in

love you're an idiot God to to to to put

you in a position

where you're going to have the romantic

adventure of your life the true romantic

adventure of your life you're going to

need love and Desperation buddy you're

going to need everything working on your

side love desperation Terror shame guilt

everything working for you and so you

take the easy

Road pornography sure you're not

desperate

anymore so people that consume

pornography do you think they're less

motivated to attack life and to well

they're definitely less motivated to

pursue sexual relationships with women

by way of that are they then less likely

to then want to go to the gym or have a

career definitely it's an interesting

idea how much how much of what men do do

they do to impress women a lot like yeah

like all of it

all of it I mean the status battles that

men back to the law firms for example so

the the men I worked with they're very

concerned with their bonuses and their

and their you know their end of the year

performance reports why well part of it

was the money most of them had lots of

money it's like I'd asked them they say

well that's the money is how we keep

score well what does that mean well it's

money is the way that men in those

competitive Enterprises say they they

compare themselves to one another and

why do they want to be at the top cuz

women peel from the top so men are

trying to impress women all the time and

they'll do it in positive ways and in

pathological ways the window for sexual

representation started to open in the

1920s let's say but it really got going

with Playboy then Penthouse came out

right after that and Penthouse was like

full frontal nudity display and then

Hustler came out and Hustler was sort of

well whatever Penthouse didn't show you

Hustler will show and it got pretty low

brow like it was a rough low class

magazine it didn't it just shed all the

pretentions that Playboy and Penthouse

had and then the net came along it's

like all those Engineers who couldn't

establish a relationship with an actual

woman exchanging pornography what 25% of

internet traffic something like that

that desire to exchange pornography was

that what created the

net

yeah was a huge part of it what's that

done well as you pointed out I think 30%

now of Japanese men and women under 30

are virgins it's about the same in Korea

relationships between men and women are

falling apart in the in the rest of the

West in the same sort of

way now can you attribute that to

pornography

certainly part like if I was a young

woman and I was looking at the

pornography World online I'd think yeah

maybe not one of the interesting things

we noticed when we're doing some

research on this was what the top Google

search around this subject matter is how

do I quit and I think like the third one

is how do I quit and and that it's in

such high quantity of people searching

Google for how to quit pornography that

it feels desperate like it feels

desperate well why wouldn't it it be

addictive like and why doesn't

pornography feel good to people that's a

good question that's a good question

well there's nothing heroic about it

that's for sure it's like it's it's

obviously nothing to be proud of that's

a different issue than whether or not

it's wrong right it's certainly not an

accomplishment yeah I mean I don't think

anyone would disagree about that it's

not an accomplishment well maybe sex is

supposed to be an

accomplishment maybe you violate the

spirit of sex uality itself when it's

not an accomplishment you certainly do

that if you rape mhm

right so is it an

accomplishment

probably so what if your accomplishment

is false well then are what are you

betraying well if it's associated with

sex maybe you're betraying the most

fundamental possible thing certainly

Poss like what there's life and sex

that's pretty much that right

you're alive and you reproduce from a

biological perspective and so you're

violating the spirit of what you're

maybe you're violating the spirit of

relationship maybe you're violating the

spirit of Adventure the spirit of

Romance the spirit of reproduction the

spirit of

Life

likely it's it's so interesting that

people seem to be a lot of people seem

to be angry at it they they seem to be

angry with what it's done to should

angry they should be angry even on an

individual level people seem in the

comment section of these episodes that

we've done about the subject matter

people seem to be angry about its

existence and what it's done to them

they should be angry they should be

outraged it's outrageous it's outrageous

would you ban it if you were in charge

of the

world I don't know how to answer that I

think any policy that policies that

require Force rather than voluntary

compliance are generally bad

policies there are restrictions that

should be placed on its

distribution but I would have to spend a

lot of time thinking through what those

were from a policy

perspective I think it's wrong no I

don't think I know it's wrong that

doesn't mean I know how that should be

dealt with at the level of policy it's

complicated I do understand why young

men and young women are angry about it

it's like where are the adults where are

the adults where have they gone they're

not protecting like 11-year-old kids

from what you can see on the

net you know I remember when I was a kid

I I I got a hold of some of these

underground comics from the 1960s and a

lot of the underground com comic artists

were they are pretty pathological

creatures like Robert crumb's a good

example Crum led a pretty good life for

someone as demented as he is and there's

a very famous documentary made about the

crumb brothers and Robert crumb was the

establisher he was one of the people who

established the genre of graphic novel

really back in the 60s in heid Ashbury

in San Francisco and his imagination

goes places that you don't want to you

don't want to be along for the ride

seriously like seriously and I read some

of that material when I was like 11 you

know I never forgot it it was shocking

as hell and like typical 11-year-old now

it's

like there are things that he is going

to see that he'll never forget it's not

good and the brain is still forming at

that age isn't it so it's oh definitely

interesting way to shock the bra well we

also don't know well that's right we

have no idea whatsoever what a diet of

pornography exposure does to somebody

who's you know making their way through

puberty what would you say to the those

individuals then that have been Googling

that like how to quit because I imagine

if we thought about percentages I'd say

what 90% of people that are listening

right now watch pornography at least I

don't know what the numbers are but but

it's a lot of lot of people it's the

vast majority write down write down what

it's doing to you write down what it's

doing to write down every exhaustively

everything you think it might be doing

to you write it down everything don't

don't worry about whether you're right

or not like maybe it's not doing some of

the things you think it might be doing

but make an exhaustive list

then start thinking through is like is

that what you want is that what you want

and then write down what you want

instead that'll help because if you're

going to

look any hedonistic Endeavor is

rewarding in the moment obviously the

problem is is the price you pay for it

in the medium to long run right that's

the problem it's the contradiction

between those two things that's the

problem okay now if you want to quit

doing something that's gratifying in the

short term you need to know why right

because otherwise you won't have the

willpower you won't have

the the part of you that thinks well

what the hell will win what the hell

which is what people think when they do

something they shouldn't do and they

should notice what they say to

themselves when when they're making that

rationalization because what the hell

refers to

hell and you the reason to stop doing

things that are self-destructive is

because they're self destructive I mean

is that the sort of person you want to

be is that the model you'd like to have

for your son for example is that the way

you would imagine that someone you

admire would act these are good

questions to ask

yourself no are you the sort of person

that is acting out a pattern that you

think is admirable I don't think

pornography masturbation fits into the

ideal of heroic

masculinity I don't think anybody thinks

that it's there's something furtive

about it and second rate obviously like

OB it's ridiculous in a sense that we

even have to have this discussion

because

obviously well these things creep in

don't they to society and they

become first they creep then they

Rampage we almost can't remember a time

if you're a young person when there

wasn't pornography you you definitely

can't remember you open up an app and

you get absolutely 100% oh and it's

going to get way worse wait till there

are AI equipped adjustable

pornographic succu by then we're really

going to have fun cuz we're already at a

at the point now where with a decent

chatbot a really alienated young man can

have a better conversation with a decent

chatbot than with anybody he's ever

talked to in his entire

life right now they're going to get a

lot smarter and soon they're going to

have like well you can all there's

already Services of this sort available

they'll be fully

fleshed out two-dimensional women

they're not women simulacra of

women right so yeah it's interesting

because with my head in design your own

girlfriend she w't call she give you she

don't argue with you she won't do the 90

minutes a week yeah right right she'll

give you everything you want but that's

not true she'll give the worst part of

you everything it wants Jesus that's not

good the worst weakest part of you will

get get exactly what it wants that's not

good that's Ser that's seriously not

good I mean that's what pornography is

kind of doing right definitely yeah well

and there's an edge to it too right

because one of

the pleasure is enhanced by

novelty right so so that that brings up

an issue with regards to marriage you

know I talked to Bill Maher Bill's

alone and he's my age

you know and that's painful but he said

to me you know in his Hollywood

hedonistic manner that he really

couldn't imagine being with the same

woman you know for any length of time

it's a novelty issue it's like

well are you restricted by the woman or

are you restricted by the limits of your

own

imagination this is an important

question like I would

say if you establish the optimized

relationship with someone you they're

inexhaustible that doesn't mean novelty

isn't important it's important that's

part of

play so yeah a lot of people struggle

with that got a lot of friends that

struggle with this idea of being with

the same person forever um the same

person the problem well but that's

really no look I I understand like I

know that novelty enhances pleasure so

the question is how do you keep your

relationship alive that means novel you

play it's interesting because actually

what I actually think is happening there

is it's not that they are miserable with

the same person forever it's actually

the thought that's kind of what I said

the thought of being with the same

that's part that trap yeah well okay so

that's very good observation because

what see because that thought is going

to have a story attached to it the story

is going to be something like well I'm

with this person we both become

unattractive quite rapidly we get

alienated from one another there's no

sexual dynamism or romance or excitement

and then we just sit you know and eat

like cold eggs while looking at each

other harshly over the table at

breakfast for 40 years yeah well yeah

that's

dismal so you know maybe don't do that

yeah yeah there's an element of control

to it on this point of headism as well I

was thinking because we're talk about

pornography but there's many types of

headism in my life whether it's you know

eating the

the cookie this is a I don't actually do

this but it's a metaphor of eating the

cookie from the mini bar in my hotel

room here in New York at 1:00 a.m. in

the morning when I know tomorrow I'm

going to regret it there's all these

forms of headism like scrolling on Tik

Tok or whatever it might be and headism

shows up in my life in these little

uncontrolled like oh gosh [ __ ] made a

mistake of course and it sometimes shows

up when I'm disabled in some way

emotionally disabled and so it's almost

it feels like it's a form of medicine

now I I could write down on this page

who I want to be I could say I don't

want to be the person eats the cookie I

don't want to be on Tik Tok I don't want

to watch pornography all those kinds of

things but then staving off that moment

where you know you're you're weakened in

some way and I use that word maybe

you're weakened in some way by something

tired or

whatever sticking to those principles

when in that moment when it's hard is

that just again a case of just being

clear on what I want in the long ter

well that helps it helps practice helps

um surrounding yourself with people who

have the same aim and that keep

you um responsible MH accountable that

helps oh yeah you need all of that

because that battle the battle between

immediate gratification and medium to

long-term investment that's a real

battle you know like the the right

amount of pleasure in the moment isn't

zero yeah okay I want to live a life of

misery so well right right and you can't

you don't want to be the joy grind for

whom everything is

tomorrow yeah right it's very hard to

because what you're trying to do is

you're trying to optimize emotion and

strategy over all time frames and you

don't know how long that time frame is

well that that's also a problem exactly

exactly might have one day left or right

so I don't need to well we also know you

know when people are say off to a battle

in Wartime they party like there's no

tomorrow well

because maybe there isn't so

definitely the the religious insistence

is that you should live in the light of

Eternity right is that you should

attempt to conduct yourself in a manner

that is best All Things Considered over

the longest possible conceivable span of

time now does that mean don't have the

desert no no because no it doesn't mean

that because look in the biblical text

for example there is an insistence that

uh the spirit of the Divine wants the

provision of life more abundant that's

the language the the idea of a fruitful

Garden an Earthly Garden of delights

even that's part and parcel of a vision

of paradise it's not joyless it's it's

harmoniously balanced I think best way

to think about it is likely musically

you know in in a musical piece that's

great every know has its place every

note has its proper place in

relationship to the whole right but

every note is also worthwhile well

that's what you want is you want to

balance your concentration on the

present with your apprehension of the

medium to long run so I'll give you an

example that so I did I did a course for

Peterson Academy called It's On The

Sermon on the Mount And The Sermon on

the Mount is the longest record we have

of Christ's Direct utterances let's say

and it constitutes the core of Christian

ethics it's a set of instructions and

the instructions are very

specific so essentially the instruction

is to aim at every moment at what's

highest okay so this something you have

to practice okay so the idea is that at

each moment you're bringing to Bear a

certain attitude and the attitude is I'm

going to do what's best

okay all things considered for me now

for me now in a way that works tomorrow

for me now in a way that works tomorrow

and next week and next month and next

year and five years from now and 10

years from now in relationship to my

wife in relationship to my kids to my

parents to my community right it's that

whole identity you're optimizing that

now you might not know how but that's

your aim okay so that's that's the

injunction to put the love of God above

all else to aim at what's highest now

you don't exactly know how to do that

but that doesn't matter you can specify

your aim right now no doubt you do

something like that with your

podcast right that's why it's successful

yeah okay you agree with that yeah why

because it's it's difficult isn't it

there's just immense pressure when

you're a podcaster um to aim at

something else and you have to me and

Jack talk about this a lot you have to

have like a certain set of principles

that are unnegotiable but whatever

principles you choose and believe in

they come at a great cost okay what are

the principles so see this is worth

delving into because You' be very