you want to know why we're lonely cuz

we've architected Our Lives to be lonely

we are social animals of course it's

hurting us and so the question is is

what can you do and this is the one

thing that I learned that was the

greatest lesson I ever learned in my

life the true skill that we've lost and

everybody's guilty of this this s cynic

the bestselling author sought after

speaker and unshakable Optimist is back

with one solution that aims to solve

some of the biggest issues we face today

everyone's looking for biohack for all

the problems that we're facing today

Rising suicide Rising anxiety depression

addiction mental health and there's one

bioh hack that's better than all of the

things that we're trying which is

friendship but we are not good at making

friends and we're not good at looking

after friends there's an entire industry

to help people become better leaders to

help us maintain better relationships

and there's no industry to teach us how

to be a better friend and yet people

with close friendships are healthier

they live longer they better deal with

stress less likely to become addicted

friendship is the thing that actually

protects us so why aren't we

prioritizing our friendship it's because

we actually don't know how to do it mass

transportation technology social media

all of these things they've interrupted

our ability to make friends or sometimes

we have old friends where the only bond

is time but is it a friend simply

because you've known somebody for a long

time they give you no joy give you no

inspiration and if you have good

friendship you will not feel lonely so

yes friends are allowed to change and

it's never too late to make a friend so

how do I make friends I guarantee you

you will make friends by learning how to

be that's all it takes

we've just hit 6 million subscribers on

the D of Co um so me and my team would

like to do something we've never done

before as little thank you and we're

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it I hope it continues uh off into the

Future Let's get to the

[Music]

episode

Simon hi Stephen good to see you again

good to see you again it's interesting

because we've had a lot of conversations

and um ahead of the conversation today I

really asked myself what what are the

subjects and themes that are front of

mind for me at the moment and subjects

that I'm struggling to understand and

grapple with and find Solutions and

answers to and the sort of macro picture

that I have in my head at the moment um

is that there's quite a lot of struggle

going on because the world has changed

quite profoundly and the struggle is

showing up in a variety of ways we're

seeing it in our mental health which I

know you refer to as mental Fitness

we're seeing it in suicidality we're

seeing it in the the rise in loneliness

which is something we talked about last

time but also now there's these other

forces at play like artificial

intelligence which feels like a threat

um in increas in digitalization and a

falling connection what is your what is

your take on This Moment In Time the

times we're living

in these are complicated

times and complex

times and I think they are more

important leaderless

times um we're seeing the rise of

populist movements and strongman

leaders not necessarily because they are

the great leaders of the day but because

I think people are desperately lacking

for meaning and purpose and to feel like

we're going somewhere we want to be led

people want to be led whether it's young

people who are

protesting on their school

campuses or whether during covid it was

anti vaxers or antim

maskers you know whether it was brexit

or you know I think they're all very

much the same whether it's the left side

of politics or the right side of

politics which is they're all basically

anti-establishment

movements and you usually see

anti-establishment

when people feel forgotten and left out

by whatever the establishment is doing

in other words they they perceive that

the establishment looking after for

themselves so I think we leave in we

live in visionless and leaderless times

that's the big challenge of the day and

uh and so we find ourselves reactive to

each other and against things but few

people can say what they're for so many

of my guests have come here and then

after the conversation have turned to me

and said they're concerned about their

younger child often they reference their

younger son because they talk about the

rise in the sort of toxic male

influences online um and it kind of

coincides with what you just said about

looking for leaders and now you know

some of those leaders that were looking

for offering us a blueprint of what it

is to be a responsible stable human that

involves buying a Lamborghini having

multiple wives and showing up in a

certain way and I've had so many

conversations in fact one of my guests

the other the other week brought me a

dossier called heroic

masculinity and um it was a woman and

she says please can you have more

conversations about this subject and

passed it to me and the reason she's

saying that is because she's concerned

her son is growing up in a world where

he's not going to know what it means to

be a good man or who are the role

models like who are the strong male or

female role models who are teaching us

values who are teaching US

service who's teaching us kindness and

empathy in in leaderless times and lost

times we will follow things that make us

feel good right wealth makes us feel

feel good conspicuous consumption makes

us feel good because you get that hit of

Serotonin and and dopamine this this is

the reason why I've become really

fascinated by the concept of friendship

you know I haven't written a book in a

many years and so I've started writing

again and uh I'm writing a book with a

friend my friend will gadera um who

wrote unreasonable

hospitality and we've decided to write

about friendship because when you think

about all of the problems that we're

facing today mental Fitness Mental

Health um Rising suicide Rising anxiety

depression addiction I mean take your

list even people's obsession with

longevity and everyone's looking for a

biohack for all those things and there's

one biohack that's better than all of

those all of the things that we're

trying which is friendship people with

close friendships are healthier they

live

longer they have better coping

mechanisms which means they better deal

with stress and I'll give you one an

amazing thing so there's um a very

famous experiment that's done I think in

like the s all of our sort of

understanding of addiction is based on

the study basically they put a rat in a

cage and they gave it um plain water or

they gave it water laced with drugs and

it tasted both it got addicted to the

water laced with drugs and eventually

drank the that water until it died right

and so this became our understanding of

addiction many years later not that long

ago another scientist said hold on

there's a problem with this experiment a

rat like a person is a social animal and

you took this social animal and you put

it by itself and then offered it drugs

so you created loneliness and then you

offered the drug right if you want to

make it a good experiment you have to

create the right context so what it did

it created they created something called

rat Park where basically what they did

is they created a new cage filled with

things to do and mazes and wheels and

and other rats and they were social and

the Rats tasted both Waters the one

laced with morphine and the one that was

just plain they taste and they drank

enough of the morphine laced one to get

addicted and then they stopped it it

diminishes how much they drank and they

only drank the plain water so basically

when you have healthy relationships we

are less likely to become addicted when

we are lonely we are more likely to

create addiction right friendship is the

thing that actually protects us and then

if you look at even if you do become

addicted right let's take the the worst

case scenario so let's look at

alcoholism right alcohol ISM um we know

that to beat alcoholism you join AA

Community we and everybody talks about

the importance of community and finding

your community right but Alcoholics

Anonymous knows that there's these 12

steps and if you master 11 of the 12

Steps the disease is probably going to

get you but if you master the 12th step

the final step you're more likely to

overcome the disease so what's the 12th

step the 12th step is to help another

alcoholic to become someone's sponsor

and in other words to become a friend in

other words Community you find Community

but then the the final step of beating

the disease is a friend where where you

replace the community with a friend and

you have both and we think Community is

the thing but it's not enough yes you

can create belonging with community and

people where we started talking about it

where people are latching onto these

these anti-establishment populist

movements it's giving them a sense of

community it's giving them a sense of of

of shared Purpose with a group of people

right but it's also providing um new new

social connections one of the things we

don't do is we are not good at making

friends and we're not good at looking

after friends there's an entire industry

to help people like us become better

leaders I I I'm a part of it I write

books about it right there's an entire

industry to help people be better

parents and if you're going to have a

child if you got a child you got a child

with problems you know you read all the

books about how be how to be a better

parent

there are no books or precious few books

to teach us and there's no industry to

teach us how to be a better friend like

are you a good friend are you a good

friend to your friends are your friends

good to you you know who do you do you

call people when you are stuck and down

or do you make Tik Tok videos by

yourself which you know and you get I

mean literally people who are depressed

make Tik Tok videos by themselves I

don't know how many times they re-shoot

that either to post it to get the

validation for their feelings but to

call a friend and say the same thing

you're struggling with is actually more

difficult why doesn't the industry exist

because typically we take it for granted

yeah yeah so the demand isn't there for

those kinds of things but that's what

that's the problem which is I think the

demand is is is is there and we don't

realize it right like we know that our

relationships fail and our marriages

fail so there's an entire industry to

help us maintain better relationships

will friendships fail and we think we

friends yet we still struggle and feel

lonely if you have good friendship you

will not feel lonely you may have

moments of loneliness and in those

periods you will pick up the phone and

say to your

friend I need you I'm lonely and your

friends will be there you will feel not

alone right or um and you and I have

talked about this about you will feel

that someone will get in the mud with

you and I think the problem is is we

don't give intention to Friendship we so

think about it and you and I are both

guilty of this in fact I would argue

that everybody's guilty of this which is

we've got plans booked with a friend

let's call it a lunch a work thing comes

up we call up the friend I got a work

thing and the reason we keep bumping our

friends is because they'll understand

they're our

friends so why aren't we prioritizing

our friendships why aren't we saying to

the work thing I'm sorry I've got a

thing I've got if we had another meeting

we would say sorry I've I've got an

appointment I can't make it so why don't

we treat our friends with the same

intentionality that we treat any other

meeting so one of the things that will

did for a friend that I thought was

genius brilliant beautiful will gadera

who I'm writing the book with um Will's

friend's dad

died um will texted him and said

uh I feel for you I know what you're

going through I lost my mom at an early

age um I'm sure you're being undated

with calls and

texts so I'm not going to call you

today but what I will do is I will call

you every single day at 9:45 a.m. do not

feel obligated to pick up I don't mind

if you don't but when you're ready know

that I'm calling you and for the next I

think it was 3 months 8 months something

he called every single day at 9:45 a.m.

and for the first week his friend didn't

pick up at all and then after the first

week he picked up every day and they

talked every day for months like think

about the

intentionality that somebody who loves

and cares about you so much that they

will call you every single day at 9:45

just so that you can see their name pop

up and the caller ID to know that you're

not alone I mean it can it brings me to

tears just thinking about it like how

many of us are are that good a

friend you know I want friends like

that here's a good question like what's

a friend like what makes a good friend

like I don't even know if we have a

definition of that you know I've been

asking people and somebody said to me

well somebody who's there for you in you

know to support you in the hard times

that's a real friend right and I got

thinking and I talked to somebody else

she has a friend who she calls Mr shoden

Freud because he seems to love when

things go wrong so in hard

times he's always there he's always

there in hard times he's got he the

shoulder to lean on he's giving advice

but in Good Times he's nowhere to be

seen and so what what happens is it

creates this horrible sort of

codependent relationship that you want

to keep the hard times because that

wonderful human being is always there so

you never want to let go and you become

codependent and so you realize that

there's something called a fair wethered

friend who's only there in the good

times but be equally cynical and

suspicious of the fou weathered friends

who's only there in the hard times

because somehow it makes them feel good

about themselves but they're not there

for the good times and so you realize

what's the what's the value of good time

versus bad time so

yes yes you and I have friends that in

hard times we would call them but I

would bet money that you have even fewer

friends that you want to text out of the

blue and say I won an

award right think about that like if

something goes wrong I've got a group of

friends probably I've probably got a you

know a dozen people I could say and say

I need your help things have gone hard

horribly wrong I I need your advice but

if something amazing happens to me that

number probably shrinks down to four

that I'm going to text out of the blue

and go something amazing happened today

and not feel like I'm bragging not feel

like I'm trying to overwhelm them or

prove them that I'm better than them but

knowing that they will be so happy for

me and so I've started thinking that

maybe a friend isn't just the person

who's there for you in the hard times

but the person you can go to in the

great times think about that I have

fewer friends that I can go to when

things go perfectly then I would go to

and things go

wrong so are those my true friends so

this is on the journey I'm on I'm trying

to understand what friend means and I'm

trying to understand the responsibility

we have to look after those friends um

you look at all the longevity studies

you know all the Blue Zone work sure

they eat healthy sure they walk a lot

but they also eat with each other

whereas you look at some of the people

who are promoting sort of longevity and

all of those bioh hacks and how you have

to exercise the certain way and eat the

certain way you'll find a lot of them

are pretty unhappy people and pretty

lonely people I don't think they're

going to live very long right so here's

a crazy crazy one here's a crazy crazy

one physiologically right what are the

most important organs to keep strong for

longevity like we know the data right so

I'll tell you what they are right number

one heart obviously that makes perfect

sense right you got to have a healthy

heart if you want to live a long time

right second one lungs gotta have

healthy lungs to live a long time cardio

and all the rest of it right don't smoke

like we know that makes perfect sense

you know what the third most important

organ is I didn't know I was going to

say the brain but the

thighs thigh muscles are the are the so

if you have a healthy heart healthy

lungs and healthy thighs statistically

you're more likely to live longer I know

I said the same thing thighs do you want

to know why because historically thighs

are the most important muscle

responsible for what motion walking

right not exercise Social going to visit

your friends before there were cars

before there were trains we had to walk

to go visit our friends and so people

who are mobile if you're more mobile

you're more likely to main friend

maintain friendships which means you're

likely to live longer so the three most

important organs to keep healthy

historically as human beings heart lungs

and thighs for Mobility thighs for

sociability

which I think is amazing that we never

thought about so all of these things

that you know technology has

interrupted um mass transportation cars

you know uh Tech uh social media all of

these things they've interrupted our

ability to make friends proper friends

where you can look each other in the eye

you and I could do this over Zoom it

wouldn't feel the

same but you the macro so the remote

work culture the rise in as you say

screens and phones

optimizing interaction out of our Lives

I mean like you know if you think about

social networking or Uber Eats or I

don't know

deliveroo um you you're living your life

behind a screen in White Walls now and

it's it feels like it's becoming harder

and harder and harder to make friends

also to find someone romantic but to

make friends in fact what's the

interesting thing is sometimes when I

come off stage I'll have it's always

young men come up to me and they'll get

right up in my personal space and I go

this is strange and then they'll say

something to me like um how do I make

friends and they and I I respect them so

much for saying it because I can see how

difficult it is for them to utter that

those words and I reflect on I was doing

something at Canary Warf and a kid in

the front row in a crowd of 500 people

they're all wearing suits because

they're working in the corporate world

he's surrounded by 500 of his peers his

age in the front row past the microphone

his question to me on stage is how do I

make friends yeah and there's 499 people

sat next to him that are his age yep and

he's asking in the front row how do I

make friends and I it was it's so moving

because you know looking looking down on

that individual surrounded by people I'm

like well you know you the brain the

simple brain goes well just turn to the

person next you introduce yourself but

clearly that was

not not the answer because if it was so

simple he would just do that and you

said something interesting as well which

I think maybe overlays with that which

is that we've kind of like lost the art

or the skill of making friends y what

would you have said to that kid so I'll

tell you by way of a story how I would

answer that so A friend of mine was uh

struggling uh her career it wasn't going

as well as she' wanted and her marriage

was in a bad place in other words when

it rains it pours like she couldn't get

a break right and she was in a really

bad place and so she knows what I do for

a living so she said she asked me can

you help can I come and talk to you and

get some advice and I said of course

and so we had a standing Wednesday

meeting get together we got together

every Wednesday for 90 minutes and she

would tell me what was going on in her

life I gave her some advice she felt

amazing when she left me it lasted about

two days and then she'd go back into her

slump and then we get together the next

Wednesday she'd feel amazing for about

two days and she'd go back into her

slump and this went on for months this

was our pattern right so I thought I was

doing good work and then it then I just

rinse and repeat

right then I remembered my own work and

I remembered Alcoholics Anonymous which

is the final step the 12th step is

service helping somebody who's

struggling with the problem you're

struggling with right is the way to

actually help you overcome your problem

so I I have struggles I have needs I

have um uh insecurities and I don't have

a safe Outlet to talk to so I she's one

of my closest friends in the world I

trust her implicitly so I said to her

can I need the coaching as well can we

split our time 45 minutes for me 45

minutes for you she agreed and it was I

was I knew what I was doing right there

was kind of an experiment happening

which I didn't let on which is I wanted

her to help me as a way of helping

herself and so what end up happening was

it did ceased to be 4545 I we got

together and for 90 minutes we talked

about me and then the next Wednesday we

got together and for 90 minutes we

talked about me and then we got together

and for 90 minutes we talked about me

and within about three or four weeks her

life was full on back on track

fully back on track because when you

help someone with a thing that you're

struggling with you actually end up

solving your own problems and so what I

would say to that kid is find somebody

who's struggling to make a friend and

help them make a friend make it an act

of service because fundamentally if we

dig down deep the the true skill that

we've lost is service we've

overemphasized taking over giving we've

overemphasized selfish over selfless

selfish is important taking is important

but not at the expense of giving um and

not the expense of serving right we've

lost we're out of balance and I think we

we've lost the ability to serve Society

we've lost the ability to serve each

other um you know the Prime Minister

cores for national service and literally

the whole country erupts and says are

you trying not to get reelected you know

um what did you think of that I thought

it was brilliant I do believe in in in

service it doesn't have to be military

service you know when we say national

service go be a teacher in the inner

city for a year you know go go work on a

one day a

month in a

hospital go work for one weekend one day

per month in a in in hospice and pal of

care right serve other human beings who

are underserved or forgotten serve your

nation in some way sh per put you know

let the government give you a list of 20

or 30 options of things you can do

um and say that if you do these things

it makes you eligible for you know

scholarships it makes you eligible for

whatever you know um I'm a great

believer just like you can get at least

in the United States very very generous

packages for Education if you serve in

the military give very generous packages

for Education if you do any of these

other things teaching you know like we

have problems you know we we we're

losing teachers okay well we can fill

those gaps why why is do you think that

would help our society at large over the

coming years if we because I think skill

that the skills that people learn when

they serve a they learn hard

work but they learn to be a part of

something larger than themselves and you

talk to anybody who goes off and does um

volunteer work or takes a gap year where

they go and do service or anyone who's

gone to combat right and you talk to if

you talk to soldiers uh or Marines who

who who've been in the [ __ ] none of them

want to go to combat it's not fun

there's very very very few combat

related suicides in other words suicides

don't happen in a combat situation they

come they happen when they come back

home right um and they all weirdly have

warm feelings about their time in combat

and it's not the shooting and the fear

it's the intense responsibility and

awesome feeling to be there to look

after each other not just to feel looked

after but to look after another I talked

to Navy Seals I talked to Seal Team 6

and I wanted to understand the why of

the SEAL Teams these this is one of the

highest performing organizations on the

planet right and you think it's going to

be about Brawn and courage and all the

stupid things that the outside world

thinks that the Commandos and the

special operators have it's actually not

that at all which is they care for each

other more than others think possible

it's their love of each other that makes

them special operators and their courage

doesn't come from raw courage I've asked

many I've talked to many many many seals

and special operators about this they

they don't have just raw courage to run

into danger and all of this stuff it's

that they fear letting down their

comrades more than

dying and we saw it happen recently

where a seal mission one of the seals

fell into the water and another seal

dived in to catch him and they both died

right they feel they fear letting each

other down more than dying that that

cannot be described anything else

there's no other word to capture that

feeling than

love that is love at a level that few of

us will ever understand and that love is

so deep that a lot of them have failed

marriages because when their wives say

to them it's either me or the or your

fellow seals they choose their fellow

seals that's

love that's love and even my even in my

world like you and I you and I have

colleagues and co-workers in the

military they have brothers and sisters

those relationships are real and I

remember the first time A friend of mine

in uniform called me brother on the

phone and he said Hey brother was the

first time he called me brother and I

felt it that that you don't use that

term loosely it's not a it's not just a

generic term of endearment you earn to

be called brother or

sister and I I remember when he called

me brother that it meant something and

this guy this guy this friend of mine

he's still active Judy he's a combat

hero he's risked his life he's put

himself in harm way he's saved the lives

of people he's an absolute Warrior right

he's a he is by any definition a

freaking badass [ __ ] Warrior right

and he was the first

man who said to me I love you we got off

the phone he goes we just saying goodbye

to each other we had a nice long

conversation we got up there and he goes

I love you he didn't say love you

he didn't say love you he said I love

you that's real and we we hedge because

we're afraid of our emotions we're

afraid of expressing ourselves to each

other we say things like that we say

love you even love you say those three

words to somebody they are

excruciatingly excruciatingly difficult

unless you actually mean it I love you

and it was so powerful that now every

time he and I talk and we talk politics

and we talk Global stuff and we talk

leadership we have you know and then at

the end of our calls I'll say I'll talk

to you real soon I love you he goes I

love you too that's how we end our phone

calls and I started experimenting I

started saying those words to the

especially the men in my life that I

love and care about desperately my male

friends it's easier to say to a woman is

there's less of a stigma right

and guys who are guy some of my guy

friends who are if you met them you

would describe them as not very warm you

would describe them as distant or cold

or guarded and they

are um and I

remember taking the risk saying to them

when we got off the phone or when I said

goodbye to them when I was hanging out

with them I said I love

you

and and in in not in very short order

they started saying it

back and we would hug

differently and we would kiss each other

on the

cheek you know and like one of my

friends who he's a cold guy he's not

he's not warm he's lovely and smart and

fantastic and funny but he's not

warm it took him a long time and I

always said it him I love you I love you

and he he goes yeaha okay

and I would like hug him and kiss him

with the cheek goodbye he's like okay

and then he started saying I love you

back

and this is what I've learned from the

highest performing teams on the planet

this is what I've learned from people

who understand service that you cannot

you cannot have

service without developing some sort of

love and so I think I think to go all

the way back to the question from that

kid in the front row how do I make

friends you can't make a friend until

you learn how to serve because

friendship is fundamentally service

friendship is an act of service and if

you don't know the skill of service then

you probably don't know how to be a

friend let alone make a friend I think

you have to learn to be a friend before

you can make a friend because only

people only want to be your friend if

you know how to be their friend right

which is not like having fun which is

not like going out and get pissed with

your mates that's

fun those are m

are those friends that you love maybe

sometimes sometimes those overlap that's

the other problem and I I live in

America where you meet somebody once and

they call you friend and the problem is

I think we overuse the word friend right

like if you have a a mild melanoma and

you have staged for liver cancer we call

both those things cancer clearly they're

not the same thing and I think we have

the same problem with the word friend

like somebody you hang out with casually

it's it's a laugh you know we call that

person friend but then somebody who we

have deep love for and we would be there

for them no matter what we call that

person friend best friend doesn't seem

to capture it either and so I think we

need more words like I've started using

the word acquaintance I've started using

the word work friend uh or deal friend

that's like in finance right I like them

I get along with them I enjoy them I but

if we weren't working if we weren't if

our companies weren't working together

would I hang out with them as much

probably not I probably would make less

of an effort right

are you are you religious I believe in

belief what does I believe in the

importance of believing in something and

so for those who choose Faith

traditional Faith as the thing to

believe in and offer guidance I think

that's good um for people who find cause

whether it's social cause um or some

type of other cause to feel a part of I

I think I think it is essential that we

believe in something I I believe in

belief it's funny cuz all the the

subjects you were talking about then

about community and other subjects that

kind of intersect with that service and

purpose these all came inherent within

religion yeah religion gave us all of

these once upon a time now in the

absence of religion like and the rise in

digitalization we're struggling to find

those things and we're trying to make

them like it's such a good question

right which is religion provided a code

and

arguably a code that you so let let so

here's the example right so

take the

victorians there were some incredibly

wealthy victorians who gave tremendous

amounts of their wealth wealth back to

society they established Charities they

built hospitals in fact many of the

institutions that exist today were

established by wealthy victorians the

same is true in the United States the

carnegies and the Rockefellers right and

I went and looked this up I went and

looked at the tax code from the Carnegie

and Rockefeller days or the George

Eastman days and I went and looked up

the tax code in the UK as well and there

was no sophisticated tax code in other

words there was no um uh refund or

rebate or deduction for giving to

charity zero zero there was no tax

benefit in the UK or the US for giving

to charity and in the conversations with

the carnegies The Rockefellers and some

of the wealthy victorians they all said

that they believe that they had a quote

unquote moral obligation to give back to

society and it was born out of religion

without a doubt they were God-fearing

without a doubt right but they believed

in moral obligations to return their

wealth and give something back to

societies establishing universities

hospitals and the rest of it right now

it seems that people give charity if

they can get a tax benefit from it and

the question is is where is the moral

obligation coming from and so when we

talk about the fact that people are less

religious today but you I think your

your assertion is correct people are are

abandoning the traditional church

membership is down and I would argue

that uh because the churches have lost

relevance right like take the Catholic

church for example like you're trying to

appeal to Young People by wearing 400y

old clothes and speaking in

Latin maybe we genes and speak English

or whatever the local language is like

if you want to be quote unquote relevant

you're not changing the faith abandoning

the faith you're not you're not

Blasphemous by changing the the the what

you're wearing and and and and the

language you're speaking in you're still

preaching the faith but you'll find

yourself more attractive I had the

opportunity to go to Kanye Sunday

service back when it was okay to do

anything with Kanye um uh I just was

invited as a as as I was a friend of a

friend and I went to the Sunday service

right and it was I don't care if you're

religious or not that was a religious

experience did you ever go I did yeah it

is it's unbelievable yeah and and you

could and and for those when I say for

those who haven't gone like anybody

could go you just to get on the signup

sheet like you could just sign anyone

could go was open to the general public

it just sold out quick I mean it was

free but the the list filled up quickly

um and uh basically what happened is

there's a there's a band a choir in the

middle and the parishioners sat all the

way in a circle around the outside you

sat

there your body was consumed by song and

music

and it was and you know there's like

Sufi tradition where

music becomes the thing the way you the

way you find spirituality the way you

find meditation or like the whirling

dervishes who spin around in the music

and the and it's the repetition and it

was sitting in this beautiful place

consumed by songs that went on for 10

minutes each that you found spirituality

whether you had traditional religion you

know in your life or not

and um there was community and I I for

one went with a friend and uh I think

that's what traditional Church doesn't

realize which is you can modernize old

beliefs and if you do that you will find

relevance amongst young people um but

young people are looking for something

there's something called Hillsong which

is an American church but it's the joke

is it's like where all the pretty people

go to pray um it's young and it's it's

relevant and like the pastor has like

got a beard and an earring and you know

jeans and you know duck Mars and there's

a rock band and but they preach the

gospel and it has and it fills up entire

Arenas um so people are looking to

belong to something and they're looking

to believe in something and they're

looking to be led and they're looking

for community and they're looking for um

um codes of conduct and values that they

can that they can um uh keep alive in

their own lives and their own traditions

and um there are precious few of those

places left which is why I think people

are desperately looking for them and

latching onto kind of the first thing

that shows up I think it's one of the

biggest business opportunities of our

time as well I say this at multiple

levels I'm talking about if I'm an

entrepreneur thinking about where to

start a business but also if I'm an

entrepreneur and I'm thinking about how

to run my company and my culture I it's

funny this I've got one particular

opinion that went out of fashion and now

has come into fashion over the course of

the pandemic which is I always believed

in doing things in person and having

people together even this podcast never

did it over Zoom even through the

pandemic we just two meter distance and

get if someone couldn't come in and we

weren't going to release I just didn't

want to because it's what's the point

right but also in terms of company

culture I think companies now that offer

I'm in so many interviews I don't think

people would believe I'm in so many

interviews where the candidate asks me

to check that they're going to going I

was in one yesterday with the young

25-year-old lady um she asked she

checked that people were going to come

in the office and be together it was

almost like she wasn't going to take the

job unless we off we were a community we

she was talking about run clubs she was

talking about reform of plates she was

talking about that she likes to do

climbing walls and she wanted to check

that we we were in the office together

and I think you know good for her you

know what I mean but like the the the

narrative through the pandemic

especially led by the west coast of

America was that remote forever and um

you know all that kind of thing but it's

I've always believed that the

fundamental needs of human being will

mean that connection and being together

will be will prevail yeah I I agree with

that but but but how much damage has to

be done until we get there you know and

I think we have a responsibility to help

people like to to bring people together

so one of the trends that I'm seeing in

the states at least is young people

especially those who started their

careers in the pandemic or slightly

before the pandemic who kind of fell in

love with the whole room the Romance of

the you know remote work thing

um are struggling a lot of them are

struggling with mental health challenges

with mental fitness challenges and when

they're forced to come into work which

is actually an antidote once they get

there they freak out and they think that

it's the the workspace that's making it

more stressful but it's not it's that

you've been at home and alone so much

that it's like a shock to the system to

come back in you know it's like it's

like when you're out of shape and you go

to the gym it really hurts you have to

stick with it you know um it's like when

you get off drugs and you go through

withdrawal you makes you want to go back

to the drug right and so my fear is that

the connection that it's the being at

home in a remote work environment is the

thing that's making me mentally unfit

and it's not the coming back into work

even though it hurts and it's a shock

when I come in and I run away from it I

I have to I have to stick with it I have

to going to the gym I have to stay off

the juice like you know um do you think

this is in part because the office is

outdated it was a concept that was

designed like you know multiple decades

ago and the needs of the human being in

the modern world if we're saying it's

much more about connection and Community

like the office itself should be

redesigned it should be it should serve

more as a community like Center I mean

versus just a place to the office has

changed multiple times to reflect the

times I mean it used to be you know the

executives had the corner offices with

Windows and the rest of us had you know

cubes in the middle and then at some

point we started giving the nice offices

to the to younger people on the outside

and then we made the outside offices the

conference rooms and then we went to

open plan I mean like the offices have

taken multiple different cultural

changes rightfully so the office should

reflect the times you're right you know

one of my favorite ones is if you visit

the Pixar

offices the way Steve Jobs helped design

the Pixar office is they put the

bathrooms in the middle middle as most

most officers have the bathrooms on the

outside and they put the bathrooms in

the middle so no matter where you worked

you had to walk past other people to go

to the L and at some point dur the day

everyone has to go to the L MH and so

that was done on purpose to force you to

interact and and have

Serendipity um but little things like

that um communal eading I'm a huge fan

of communal eating I'm a huge fan of

like let's go let's let's eat together

um uh you know I built my office to feel

like a living room there's like

different living room areas you can sit

up here you can sit over there but it's

just couches and people sit wherever

they want and you know people have their

quote unquote their desk you know where

they like to sit and there's back rooms

if you need to make calls but it's all

just couches it's all super comfy it

feels like it feels like a home if

people want to work at home great here's

a home literally you walk into my office

I mean you've been there it's a home

it's a home yeah it's it's a home and uh

cuz I want people to have have that home

experience we've got a fridge and a

kitchen and you can you know I can

imagine the rebuttal to a lot of people

that are listening to us where they

genuinely they have an hour commute to

go into some horrible little cubicle

surround they have to wear a suit they

get no Freedom so my bias is that

obviously I'm the CEO of the company so

I have you know these freedoms and our

our culture is much more relaxed and

free but there's a lot of people that

their relationship with work is it's

awful it's like an awful place to be

yeah and I think so the question is

great okay so instead of rejecting it

how would you redesign it to make you

want to come in okay you don't want to

wear a suit don't wear a suit maybe you

only have to wear a suit if you have a

meeting with a client that seems if if

you're in that kind of business yeah you

know I live in Los Angeles where

everybody dress likes everybody dresses

like 16y olds but you know that seems

fair wear a suit only when you're

meeting with a client if that if your

business requires that um otherwise

where whatever um you know so and so

again it goes back to service which is I

think that people have to earn the right

to complain right and you earn the right

to complain by in some small way to fix

the problem yourself not exhausting

every possibility like you're not

allowed to complain about politics

unless you've at least voted right you

don't have to have joined a movement you

don't have to have campaigned just the

minimum the minimum then you can

complain about anything you like and so

if you've tried to fix the office then

you can complain about the office if you

just sit at home and whine about

it like maybe like get involved and

don't do it for yourself

here's we go back to service don't do it

for yourself do it for the other people

who hate coming to work with an hourlong

commute to sit in a little cubicle and

wear a suit that they don't want to wear

do it for the people you love do it for

the people you care about do it for the

person to the left and the person to the

right don't do it for yourself you

selfish bastard right do it for someone

else to make their feeling of coming to

work better how can you make it feel

better for somebody else you work with

to come to work and that's what we're

missing we're all about ourselves and

yet we've forgotten email is another one

you know why you get so many emails cuz

you send so many emails stop BC seeing

everybody stop C seeing everybody like

when somebody says what time is the

meeting and you reply all and write 3:00

or what do you want for lunch and you

reply and write chicken please like you

made everybody open that email you

thoughtless bastard right why don't you

help everybody else get to inbox zero

instead of worrying about you getting to

inbox zero so in other words pick up the

phone when possible

you know send few emails take people off

the CC list like I get an email it's got

five people CC I realize that my reply

only really matters to two people and I

take people off the CC list you know

because I want them to have fewer

emails because otherwise everybody's

hitting you know reply all and then

we're all you know suffering from email

bankruptcy the um anyway acts of service

acts of service I mean there's so many

little things there's so many little

things um stupid things stupid things I

was walking down the streets of New York

and a guy was parking his

car and uh it happened to be a huge

space big enough for two cars right like

and he parked right in the middle and it

wasn't like it was his brand new cut he

was like afraid of getting it bumped

turned it just it was just a car right

and I said to him hey I sort of like

tapped on the sort of like wave down his

window like I waved like hey just so you

know there's a ton of room behind you or

in front of you if you move your car up

or back you'll make room for another car

and he goes there's no room I'm like no

no no no I'm standing out here there's

you got like five feet in front of you

like there's plenty of room I I'll I'll

guide you if you want you know I was

being super nice about it and he goes I

think it's just fine I'm like no no no

no I like you another car could he goes

are you trying to park your car he says

to me I said no but I I've tried to park

in New York before and I know it's hard

to find a space so you know maybe it'd

be nice to pull your car up and let

another the guy would hear nothing of it

he turned his car off and got out of the

car and walked away and like that's what

I mean you know which is you know here's

the advice I wanted to tell him I didn't

say this but I wanted to be like hey

just can I offer you an observation you

live in the world like you live in the

world there are other

people in the world and I'm not asking

you to give up your weekends and work in

hospitals I'm not asking you to join the

military I'm not asking you to give up

your salary and become a teacher I'm not

asking you to do any of those things I'm

asking you to consider that somebody

else might want to par and it's an act

of service to like move your car to make

a little room for somebody who you don't

know do you think that individualism

is hurting us on an individual level I

mean is that of course you want to know

why we're lonely cuz we've we've

architected Our Lives to be lonely

of course it's hurting us we are social

animals who've over indexed un rugged

individualism with hero wise

CEOs like I love you you're great you're

wonderful but people consider you a hero

and their business Guru blah blah blah I

know for a fact that you didn't do it

alone I know for a fact that you've got

teams of people who make you look good

what are you talking about I know I know

for a fact that people took bets on you

took risks on you I know for a fact that

people made introductions for you I knew

when you had nothing sure you had Moxy

sure you had talent but if it weren't

for people who tried supported helped

you know opened a door there would be no

Steven Bartlett of course even my

parents the first people I think about

is my parents I don't know why they

cared so much about me I was just I feel

like you know kids feel they objectively

look like such a

burden I feel the way you know what I

mean I was like why why would you do

that yeah why would my mom and dad care

so much about this little bundle of

cells I don't understand they would just

like kill themselves to you know but it

matters but we know parenting matters we

know parents that build up their kids

confidences uh really really you know

parents that are capable of building

their kids confidence really really

matters you know as opposed to telling a

kid constantly to do everything wrong

like that'll hurt the kid for the rest

of their life and they're going to have

to do tremendous amount of work to

overcome that you know it's interesting

even on this overlaid with this is the

idea that populations in the western

world are actually declining because by

having less and less kids we're actually

making it more about ourselves we want

to work longer we want to achieve our

career goals and now having kids and

that sort of active service of parenting

has now become deprioritized and it's a

real problem for the Western world

because of the you know aging population

and very often for selfish reasons like

I want to live my life 100% yeah um yeah

yeah I mean I think to your point I

think we

have we have forgotten that we're social

animals I mean like just go back a few

years a few decades

right so second world war right

um the camaraderie I mean think about

what happened in in America and in in

Britain during the second world war so

during the Blitz the number of people

who sent their children to the

countryside and they stayed back to

support the war effort okay they didn't

move to the countryside with their

children they could have they sent their

think about the insanity of that right

now that parents sent their children to

the country to be safe to be raised by

another family with the full expectation

that they would that they may never see

their kids again because they might die

in The

Blitz right like that is

incomprehensible to a modern day and yet

that made total sense that we stayed

back to support the war effort and to be

a part of it and we sent the kids to the

country in the United

States more people died by Suicide who

didn't get called to

action the shame of not being call to

serve was more overwhelming than the

call to service there were more suicides

in the United States from people who

didn't get called to serve what does

this say about the the genz the

millennial now that's trying to decide

which direction to take their life in

but you know all the it says you know go

be a lawyer is the clear incentive

because I'll get paid more or my you

know people would be more proud of me on

Instagram if you're saying that service

and it also sounds like into intertwined

within there a little bit of like

challenge is so Central to being happy

how does like the young person decide

like make build their life road map what

do they what do they need to be adding

to that road map got this kid in my head

that is currently behind a video game

screen he's spending all his time on the

internet watching um certain male

influences that are telling him to be

individualistic he doesn't have a

romantic relationship in the world

doesn't have any friends he's not really

leaving the house much not going to the

gym at all often refer to these IND

idual is like being incels on the

internet and the rise in that type of

individual according to a lot of people

I've spoken to is is rising because of

the nature of the world and

disconnection and lack of friendship and

all these things you know what' you say

to that person who's probably a guy

looking at the statistics well well you

and you've talked to you've talked to um

Scott Galloway yeah you know he's he

talks a lot about this you know um and I

don't think we talk enough about this as

it relates to extremism and terrorism

and things like that you know

where you take a 24 25 26 27 year old uh

incel

virgin with no social life there's a lot

of pent up frustration there and that

comes out in all kinds of screwed up

ways usually anger usually victimization

addictions addictions you know vengeful

Behavior you know antisocial behavior um

um and if you look at you know even just

in the and this this is not a current

statistic this is decades and decades

and decades but you look at sort of the

rise of uh ex religious extremism in the

Middle East you know you take a shame

based society where you're 24 25 26

years old you're living at home you're a

virgin um the only way you can leave the

house is if you like get a job and if

you get you won't get a girlfriend and

I.E a wife I.E have sex until you get a

job and move out of the house and so

this there's the and and and and you're

in a in a shame based society like the

the pressures are extreme and the anger

is Extreme um so I think yeah I think

this idea of not knowing how to make

friends and finding online community of

people who are you know where we all

support each other's

victimhood is is incendiary I could

never

imagine Simon cynic in one of your books

telling people that they were losers

that they were losers and that they suck

oh yeah never do that but when I look at

Andrew Tate's approach in his videos

multiple videos and tweets he really

mocks the people that he's speaking to

he says your life sucks you're an

absolute loser and then he tries to

offer them a road map yeah and it seems

to work yeah of course it works why cuz

you're validating their feelings of

victimhood you're affirming it and then

offering them a way out um because if

you simply say everyone can be a winner

like and I don't feel like a winner

you're not talking to me but if I say

you've been forgotten like look we we we

do it in work all the time it's like the

corporation doesn't care about you the

corporation prioritize its profits over

you you're like yeah like you're

disposable yeah it's kind of a

rhetorical clickbait right because what

you're doing is you're validating

someone's feelings you make them feel

not alone in their loneliness and

victimhood and then you offer them but

you're not just berading them you're

offering them a validation and then a

and a an a way out of that feeling um

and it's not wrong it's it's too much

like it's totally fine for you and I to

say look if if if you feel like your

career isn't going anywhere and yet you

have ideas that you think of how you can

do it better maybe maybe an entrepreneur

life is for you like we're we're saying

similar things the difference is is

we're not berating people right but we

we definitely want people to feel

seen right um I just think you know when

you play in the extremes you're playing

in the extremes and so you're going to

get extreme behaviors extreme reactions

you know you you could do the same thing

to the same people without riling them

up because emotions are a powerful thing

right and so you're playing with the

Delta I'm going to push you down even

harder you know and then I'm going to

show you that I can lift you even higher

and I must you know that must make me

the savior because the Delta is so much

bigger you know if someone is listening

now and they are they have no friends

and they're lonely MH and they're

also and there's someone else that's

listening and they are single

romantically single mhm

the first step to solving those two

conundrums finding a friend and finding

a romantic partner in terms of where I

go like the physical location that I go

to in a modern world where

digitalization has just you know social

networking exists and Tinder exists what

is that place the location because I

have so many conversations with people

in my life that are struggling on both

fronts to find a friend and to find a

partner where they're saying I just hate

dating apps and then um we've now have

friendship dating apps I'm wondering

where the location is these days like

you

know once upon a time it would be in the

village it would be maybe at church it

would be at you know somewhere in person

but with the decline in skills of

building friendships or romantic

relationships it feels like both groups

are struggling and I've got a particular

friend in mine that I don't know what to

say to her about this subject cuz she's

finding desperate to find someone

finding a partner is as difficult as

finding a

friend um and and it's different for

introverts and extroverts right so like

me take me for example I am absolutely

socially inept in Social places parties

bars clubs networking events I am

absolutely uncomfortable and inept I

stand in a corner by myself and the

funny thing about my career it's

actually been helpful that some people

recognize me because they'll come up to

me and do all the Talking which is like

a relief right my my my um one of my

best friends makes fun of me cuz she

says like when we go to like a when we

go to a party like when we go to like

like a part party at someone's house or

something and there's like 100 people or

whatever there is 50 people that all

these conversations are happening like

you know these like little pockets of

conversations and I don't know how to

inject myself into com I don't know how

to like saunter up without feeling and

looking really uncomfortable and weird

and like ruining the relation ruining

whatever Dynamic exists and so she makes

fun of me because I'll just stand by

myself in the middle of the room with my

drink perfectly comfortable but like

when she stands in the corner and looks

around like she goes to like get

something she'll see all these little

conversations and one person standing by

themsel with their drink and it's me so

I'm useless in Social places it's the

introvert in me but in unsocial places

I'm more relaxed so

like put me in a

museum and I'm looking at a piece of art

and somebody next to me is looking at a

piece of art and I actually have no

problem saying you like it

and it I'm not trying to make a friend

I'm but I do like making a connection

and sometimes I talk for them for 30

seconds about the piece and it's

happened a couple times where we just

kept

talking and then you end up having a cup

of coffee and you ended up making a

friend like that's happened to me is

that because of the shared interest you

fundamentally know that you I think

there's a shared interest I also think

and this is a weird thing I actually

think it's easier to make a connection

when you're standing next to somebody

than when you're standing across from

somebody so like in social situations

like bars clubs networking events you

you face each other which I find

adversarial and tense and you have to

gauge the right amount of social

distance you know it's 18 Ines is

actually the right amount you know

anything less than that is like too

close anything that then too far is

weird you know but I find standing next

to somebody is easier if you like going

for a walk with somebody or strolling

with somebody or standing next to

somebody in a museum standing next to

somebody in a buffet line you can

actually get really close without it

being uncomfortable so any place where I

can stand next to somebody I find it

less and and being quiet is easier when

you're next to somebody like when you go

for a walk with somebody if you're

standing next to somebody you can say a

few words and then you can go completely

quiet that's not awkward when you're

facing somebody you go completely quiet

it's just flat out uncomfortable so the

way I Define you know social versus um

like social environments versus

non-traditional social environments is

am I standing next to someone or

standing across from someone

what's something that you're um

struggling with and when I ask that

question I'm talking

about where I feel like every time I've

met you but also every time we've met

we've both been at Crossroads and those

Crossroads are professional Crossroads

personal Crossroads

Etc um I'm at so many Crossroads in my

life I think that's so where where tell

me so many Crossroads so trying to

understand get a clearer idea on what my

North Star is professionally and

therefore what I should be prioritizing

and this really relates to like

it's not even professionally it's just

in life it's like

um had a lot of thoughts

about I i' I've worried for a long time

that the way I'm living my life is going

to turn out to

be um my priorities were wrong and that

I allocated my my time when I was young

that I had to the wrong set of

priorities and those priorities that I

allocated towards were like

work and material success and all those

things and that you know I heard there's

a story you've probably heard it before

about the fisherman who

was down by the he had a little boat and

he went out to see every day and he went

out and caught two fish and came back by

lunchtime he sold one fish to pay for

the boat the petrol and the servicing

and he s he gave the other fish to his

family to feed his family and then then

in the evenings and afternoons he spent

the time at the beach relaxing with his

family and like a guy comes past in a

Mercedes and is like listen listen I've

got an idea for you what we're going to

do is we're going to keep you out on the

boat all day you're going to catch four

fish we'll C with the extra two fish

we'll get other boats we'll employ

people we'll increase the F Fleet we C

we'll catch loads more fish with all

these new boats we have them we'll take

the company public we'll sell it and

then the Fisher man's like and then what

and he goes and then you can spend the

day with your family on the and I kind

of look at how I've played my life and

I'm wearing that's how I'm playing my

life a little bit um there's obviously

all all these other things like I'm in

the face season of life where I'm

thinking about fatherhood and becoming a

dad and how old are you now

31 so I'm right at that that age and my

partner's 31 so um that's a you know a

crossroad I'm at and uh so what do you

what so what are you going to do about

it I don't know well what are you

thinking about I'm I think I'm

collecting evidence to form a

perspective that's [ __ ] you have a

perspective you don't need evidence you

have all the EV you talk to you do this

podcast every day of your life yeah you

talk you do no none of the talking on

your podcast you do of the listening I'm

on to

you and we're going to go to ad break

now yeah uh so that's nonsense you have

an opinion you have a perspective I'd

like to know what that perspective is

because you're at a Crossroads where you

said yourself I'm questioning the

priorities I made yeah so that means you

have a point of view and I'm worrying

that I'm bullshitting myself about why

I'm working so why what is the [ __ ]

line you're giving yourself why are you

working what's the [ __ ] line what's

the [ __ ] answer to that it's like

the fisherman it's like and then I'll

and then I'll make more boats and then

we'll make more boats and then for what

reason to what end like why is it

important for you to keep having all

those boats in the water so I wonder

whether that it's about the end or if

it's about just the the fun of the

journey and that's what I'm that's kind

of what I'm not sure is it about the end

is it about you know being able to do

have it even greater levels of freedom

in the future which sounds like [ __ ]

because I've got so much Freedom now or

is it life is just about the climb not

not getting to the top and having this

incredible view but I just have to keep

myself sufficiently challenged in my

life that's why I'm giving myself more

responsibility setting myself bigger

goals bigger challenges because the joy

of life is waking up in the morning and

feeling a little bit scared about today

and you know okay so if that's the

answer then you wouldn't be at a

Crossroads you would this wouldn't be a

conversation so so here's the blunt

question yeah what in what in your life

is off I think it's probably the balance

of my romantic relationship I feel like

I'm

deferring I feel like I'm telling myself

that I'll have I'll really focus in the

way that I need to on my romantic

relationship which is also going to then

become my

family in the future and I've been

especially this year I've been doing

that all year I think that I'll have

time for my relationship in three years

when I sell a business or something

that's what I've been telling myself and

I think I'm I feel that

disconnection not just in my romantic

relationships but I just feel that

disconnection because I've told myself

now that I I'll figure it out in 3 years

that's when I'll Focus I'll sell this

business then I'll focus on you know

what's so funny is

that if it was a business problem if you

and I were talking about a business

problem and I was telling you about a

business challenge I'm having I'm having

and if I said to you you know what

whatever I'll figure it out in 3 years

you would say no you figured that out

now MH cuz that problem will not go away

and 3 years from now you'll defer

another 3 Years or new problems you like

if this was a business problem you would

never let yourself defer that problem

for 3 years so how are you giving

yourself a different standard for your

romantic relationship of something that

is of utmost importance to you the

desire to start a family one day why do

why the different standard for your per

a lower standard for your personal

relationship than your professional work

I think sometimes our romantic

relationships becomes the residual

benefit

I gets whatever's left it's kind of what

you were saying about friendships when

you was talking about friendships I was

thinking that's that term residual

beneficiary like you get whatever's left

it's not allocated in the calendar so if

there's nothing in the calendar it gets

nothing that day but the business

meeting gets priority the thing I think

relationships are become the residual

beneficiary because it's unclear in the

near term the impact of neglecting them

so like brushing not brushing your teeth

today you would really see it today you

won't see the pain today there'll be no

Dental visit don't brush it every day

this week you also won't see the impact

don't do it for 5 years divorce you're

in the dental check having the MERS

pulled out and these things in life

where they're easy to do and therefore

easy not to do and the the impact is

delayed they always become residual

beneficiary and like that's that's the

nature of my life like friendships

family relationships I've got this

meeting today and I can quantify the

return the meet the meeting is going to

make me a million or whatever but the

relationship not missing the date today

or not checking on you're trading you're

trading uh consistency for intensity

you're Trading

brushing your teeth every day for going

to the

dentist so intensity easy to quantify

easy to measure immediate result yeah

yeah yeah yeah yeah

consistency slow no easy way to

calculate have to believe how long yeah

like how long does it take to get into

shape I don't know neither does any

doctor how many days do I have to brush

my teeth every day what if I take a day

off that's fine how many days can I take

off I don't know and Ne so

consistency going to the

gym like you don't treat your

relationship like going to the gym yeah

right which is basically you're out of

shape and you're like I'll go to the gym

when I have time and then you're

surprised that you're out of shape and

out of breath so you recognize this and

so the question is is what can you do

and by the way you can also just

discover the results all by yourself no

I don't want to right cuz I've got

friends I met one at shortage house the

other day and he said I don't know how

it happened he go my wife was focusing

on her business I was focusing on mine

we got 13 years in and the relationship

had just vanished and I don't really

know when it happened by the way the

opposite is true when things go right

which is if you invest in the

relationship just like you invest in

exercise you're like I don't even know

when I got into such great shape but

look at this right and it's what I have

found is that what makes great

friendships what makes great

relationships and what makes great

businesses is not just the big things

it's the it's the countless little

things like a corporate culture saying

good morning to everybody right just on

a daily basis like it's the countless

little things that add up to build trust

to build foundation and I think this is

one of the this is one of

the great tragedies of

Entrepreneurship which is entrepreneurs

have a unique gift to excel at the

things that are easy to measure but how

many of them are really good at the

things that are hard to

measure you know um because what drives

you

is the ability to say look how much

effort I got but look at the return I

got for that effort and if I can't show

you a return I can only say trust me

have faith that goes back to the

question of faith I need you to have

faith you'll be like I don't know but

you know intellectually so if so I'm

going to go so you're a man of action

and we're going to get on to you by the

way mhm okay so you're a man of action

your best you're a man of action if you

know that you're not prioritizing your

relationship and you're you're

overemphasizing work to the sacrifice of

your relationship and that your

relationship is getting the residual

benefits I mean I'm sure that makes your

partner feel so special honey I love you

I want you to have all my residual

benefits I mean but you know what I have

to say she's running her own business

she's flying around the world doing her

own thing and 13 years from now a studio

upstairs which is her business her

breath work Studio MH so are you forcing

her to take a breath and for herself and

take time what I'm trying to do is

trying toed yes I know you are you

obedient to those date nights yeah these

days I am and is she uh yes but they're

not frequent enough and this this is a

new thing we're trying so I I remember

the first time I had the conversation

with her about putting her in the

calendar and when people hear that this

idea of scheduling time with each other

there's this sort of initial visceral

negative reaction because what you think

I'm like your work or whatever she

wasn't like this a little bit um but

when I explained the whole residual

beneficiary thing which is everything

else is being scheduled and our

relationship isn't so I want our

relationship to be equally more

important than all these other things

that are taking my diary than we bought

into it a little bit and that's helped

our relationship a little bit but then I

don't know this year i' really [ __ ] it

up like cuz I just over I said yes there

too many things and she's got her

business and I felt like we're too is it

like passing ships in the night are you

good at taking holiday no oh holiday

what the hell no no you work on a

holiday yeah my whole team now I was I

well I went to I bought House in South

Africa so I went over there but I was I

never it was as if so you do know right

that nothing undermines trust more than

telling your team you're taking a

holiday and then checking in every day

yeah know because it's basically what

we're saying is I don't trust you to do

this without me which I know is not

true but that's what you're

communicating that I can't even take a

holiday without having to double check

everybody's work and make every

decision as opposed to saying I'm going

on holiday if there's an emergency deal

with it I'll see you in two weeks by

and what you will find is everybody will

work to a higher level because you let

them you know what it is though when I

was on holiday which was about two weeks

ago I woke up every day wanting to do

the work of course you did it's called

addiction so addiction yeah yeah

probably you woke up every day to get a

hit yeah I want it's it's how you get

your validation I played paddle in the

morning but then I wanted to come home

and get stuck in yeah but you talked

about prioritizing your relationship

honey I'll be there in 2 hours I'm just

going to spend some time checking email

then we'll go for dinner he was on a

bloody laptop as well not saying it's

healthy you just sound like well I can

be an addict if she's an addict yeah it

takes one of you to break the addiction

and bring the other one along with I

dare you to take a

holiday and just start with one day I'm

not even saying two weeks one day you

both leave your phones in the

hotel what do you think is going to

happen if I do that I think you'll

actually get along really well and have

a great

time you might have a little stress to

start there's always a withdrawal you

might need to do it for two or three

days in a row cuz the first day might be

excruciating the second day not too bad

the third day you will bond like you've

never bonded in your

life actually um with her have planned a

retreat this weekend for for three days

and the deal we have is no phones so we

have what does no phones mean going to

glastenbury this weekend alone okay does

that mean you won't check your phones

does it mean you turn your phones off do

you put your phones in airplane mode if

I'm going to be honest with you I think

that's really important it means that

I'm still going to check my phones but

not when we're doing the activities so

if if for example if I like you know

evenings if she's getting changed then

I'll just quickly check my phone so can

I make a recommendation yeah you hold

her phone and she holds you hold her

phone and she holds your phone for the

whole time so if you need to take a

picture of food or whatever take a

picture with each other's phone you know

you can turn a phone on without

somebody's password MH you know and at

no point do you say can I have your

phone if she goes to the toilet but she

takes your phone with you with her and

vice versa and you if you're in a

restaurant by yourself God forbid you

have to just like look around for a

little bit okay I'll do that try it okay

well my old my my team are listening now

so they'll know that from Friday till

Monday if you need me I'm in glass and

leave me alone po M yeah yeah so

so it's it's a gift don't but don't