we know that as your waist expands your

brain shrinks what yeah it's related to

Max lugavier he's the author of The New

York Times best-selling book genius

Foods a brain food expert is this the

best in the world at what he does there

is a lot of misinformation out there and

so my passion is to know what's true so

when it comes to Sugar your average

adult today is consuming 77 grams of

added sugar every single day that's

almost 20 teaspoons Jesus Christ but the

issue is we're designed to over consume

those Foods so you're fighting against

millions of years of evolution how do we

solve that I haven't gotten asked that

anywhere else so controversial new

research surrounding meat in our diet

red meat is not associated with the

health problems we've been told for

decades people will try to censor you in

talking about it but we know that animal

products in particular contain nutrients

that are very supportive of good mental

health and there have been a number of

studies that have shown that

particularly vegan diets put people at

increased risk for depression at least a

doubling of risk I mean food is so

powerful it's medicine I get passionate

about this because my mom was a

vegetarian it's clear that her low meat

diet didn't protect her there was a

period where she got really bad really

fast and then

she passed away

it was just so incredibly hard there

were times I thought about suicide it

really showed me how fragile life is we

have incredible agency to change our

destiny and to change the way really

ultimately most of us are aging today so

how do we change that

[Music]

um

foreign

[Music]

why do you do what you do and

what do you do

oh man what a place to start I um

well I do what I do because

the most important person in my life my

mother

uh

was very ill from a very young age and

that was the most traumatic seeing

seeing her go through what she went

through was the most traumatic thing

I've ever had to endure in my life and

ultimately

it led to me losing her and

when a loved one gets sick

you know had I struggled with any kind

of like health condition it probably

wouldn't have been the motivating force

in my life that um that my mom was for

me but because it was my mom because it

was somebody who uh really was such a a

beautiful person and and who aspired her

whole life to be healthy seeing her

succumb to illness it was a call to

action to me to learn as much as I

possibly could about health and

nutrition and to share that knowledge as

I was acquiring it with ultimately

anybody who would listen and so what I

do is

I consider myself a health and science

journalist with a point of view I

suppose I'm a filmmaker I'm a podcaster

I'm an author but ultimately my my

mission in life I think my purpose in

life is to

um

is to help people is to help people feel

better

live longer

live healthier and to avert ultimately

the kind

s of conditions that my mom struggled

with for so many years

zooming in on that then

can you take me to the day that you

found out your mum was sick and what was

was there a phone call was there were

you at the doctors with her and what was

the diagnosis

it was uh it was around like 2011 she

was 58 roughly at the time

and I was I had been living in Los

Angeles and my mother was home in New

York City

and I would routinely check in with my

mom on the phone and at a certain point

she started to complain to me about uh

brain fog

and I thought you know that that was

just a was par for the course of getting

older

um it's not a term that was in my

lexicon but you know brain fog you kind

of have a sense of what someone's

talking about when they when they say

that

I started to spend more and more time in

New York I was actually in between jobs

uh at the time and

because of that and because my mom's

symptoms seemed to be a little bit

worse than just like you know some some

passing phase I started going with her

to doctor's appointments and nobody

could give us answers and I'm from as I

mentioned New York City and so we have

access in New York to Cathedrals to

academic medical Insight right and so in

all of those in all of those instances I

was just met with a total lack of

clarity

and um and it was really frustrating for

me and my family you know one physician

would think that it was uh depression

for example and prescribe my mom a a non

uh you know like an SSRI drug which are

so commonly taken these days

but her symptoms continued to get worse

and ultimately we had to take a trip to

the Cleveland Clinic so in the United

States

the two I guess highest regarded

hospitals in the country are the Mayo

Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic I mean

there are probably others in that tier

as well but

um the reason why we felt the need to

travel to the Cleveland Clinic was

because they're known for taking on very

complex medical cases

and so we had a we took out a couple

nights at a Holiday Inn

across the street from a hotel and we

show up at the hospital they assemble a

team around the patient and it was there

that week that my mom was diagnosed for

the first time with a neurodegenerative

condition

the the diagnosis was unclear but she

was prescribed drugs for both

Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's

disease at the same time

and so not knowing anything about either

of those conditions I mean I what I did

know about those conditions were

misconceptions

and you know some of them were for

example that their old person's

conditions that they are you know some

somehow genetically predetermined

but doing what any Millennial with a

data plan would do I went home and I sat

on the or I went back to the hotel and I

sat on the couch

um in the suite and I started Googling

Alzheimer's disease Parkinson's disease

because those were the indications for

the drugs that my mom was given

and that was the first time in my life

that I had ever had a panic attack like

I you know I felt um short of breath I

felt the room

starting to close in on me and it was uh

that was a real turning point in my life

learning that my mom had an incurable

Progressive condition

um

and uh and that was a point at which I I

really out of I mean it wasn't even a it

wasn't even a choice I just I that you

know I couldn't focus on anything else

anything but

trying to understand to the best of my

ability why this happened to my mom and

I'm not a medical doctor I didn't take

an academic route I didn't you know get

a PhD but I had always been passionate

about health and nutrition and fitness

and exercise science I actually started

college on a pre-med track and I I'm not

saying that that is a you know could

ever be a replacement for the rigors of

you know going through the academic

channels but

I knew where to find research because I

had worked as a journalist after college

and so what I did was I just immediately

dove into the medical literature and it

was really difficult to understand at

first but it's something that like you

read and you read and you read and you

cross-reference and you watch you know

you read books you watch TED Talks so

like I left no stone unturned I was like

you know I didn't I didn't like a year

that first year I wasn't even sleeping I

was just trying to like read anything I

could get my hands on

and um and then ultimately that search

broadened out where I I started reaching

out to experts like

actual scientists who are now ushering

ushering in the concept of dementia as a

preventable condition and I started

asking them questions

and so yeah that was a journey that

began about 10 years ago but it was

really motivated by by that that sort of

initial incident where my mom was first

diagnosed and

uh and it continued to

you know watching my mom decline

over the following years was really I

mean it was just so incredibly hard

that um that it just further cemented my

my mission you know to try to understand

all that I could about these conditions

Because by the time you show up to your

doctor's office

you know a lot of people ask why me

right it seems like it seems like these

diagnoses are something that like you

know that that the condition that we're

being diagnosed for

happened overnight right but it's not

like most of these conditions the kinds

of conditions that are now saddling

modern society take years if not decades

to develop and so to me what that

suggests is we have an incred we have

incredible agency to to change our

destiny and to and to change the way

really ultimately

um most of us are aging today

and uh and so yeah so I just I became

obsessed

um and uh and I still am so

so let's talk about genius Foods then

yeah

chapter three of this book you talk

about sugar

yes sugar is something I've thought a

lot about recently I'm on a bit of a

food Journey myself trying to correct a

lot of things in my diet and to be

honest I find it all absolutely like

intimidating contradictory to the point

that I'm not sure like where I'm yeah I

feel like I'm being pulled and pushed

from Pillar To Post so I'm very keen to

try and simplify

um my understanding of some of these

sort of basic nutritional Concepts

sugar

I'm going to ask you if it's good or bad

and I'm asking that because I'm a

neanderthal and I just want things you

know my a lot of my questions on this

subject matter will be very simplified

and hopefully the whoever's listening to

this at home shares an equally

primitive brain so I can be a bridge to

them but sugar

good or bad

it depends I knew you were going to say

that and I know it's a stupid question

well that's the kind of that's the kind

of answer that you should expect from

somebody who really knows what they're

talking about

the biggest problem I think today with

regard to sugar is added sugar so it's

not sugar that's naturally found in food

all plant foods have some quantity of

sugar even kale has a tiny amount of

sugar

um mostly you'll find it you'll find it

most concentrated in Fruit obviously

which is like the primary source of

naturally occurring sugar in the produce

section of the supermarket in in whole

fruit

but the most pernicious source of sugar

today is the added sugar

um the sugar that is added by food

manufacturers to ultra processed foods

usually with the intent of making those

Foods hyper palatable basically these

Foods one of the major problems with

most Ultra processed foods is that they

push your brain to a bliss Point Beyond

which self-control becomes really

difficult if not altogether impossible I

can relate yeah it's like the pint of

ice cream right we've all had that

experience of going over to the freezer

breaking out the pint of ice cream

flipping the top taking a spoonful only

intending on having that Spoonful and

then before you know it you're looking

at the bottom of the pine right I've

been there everybody I know has been

there it's just uh

the problem is that people tend to think

that it's a moral failure right that

they screwed up when they're unable to

moderate their consumption of those

kinds of foods whether it's ice cream or

cupcakes or cookies or what have you

but the issue is

the real understanding here is that it's

not a moral failure we're designed to

over consume those Foods because they

light up fireworks in our brains reward

centers because they're so calorie dense

and now we live in a time where we've

solved for the food scarcity problem

right we have food over abundance this

is the first time in human history where

there are more overweight people walking

the planet than underweight people so

we've solved that issue but our brains I

mean they're still operating on version

1.0 of the operating system that told

them that when we encountered

sweet Foods or even Savory Foods for

that matter because salt is actually a

very valuable nutrient as well that we

shouldn't stop consuming them because we

don't know when the next Feast is going

to be right it was like there were

periods of feast and famine and so our

brains and our ultimately our palates

and and our our willpower are doing

exactly what they're programmed to do so

you're fighting against Millennia you're

fighting against millions of years of

evolution when you try to moderate your

consumption of those foods and I think

that's the real problem with added sugar

we tend to over consume it we don't Tire

of eating it it gives Foods this quality

of being hyper palatable and it also has

a number of

um you know inconvenient let's just say

hormonal effects that when we really go

overboard

um you know aren't doing our health any

favors but for your average person today

I mean we live in a world where at least

here in the United States one in two

people is trending towards obesity not

just being overweight but like obese one

and two

so out of every other person you know

that person has clinical obesity and one

in two people also have some degree of

glucose dysregulation

um and glucose is essentially sugar so

for that for your average person

more than for most people

um most people today have some degree of

metabolic dysfunction the vast majority

in fact do and so for that person sugar

really is something added sugar in

particular is something that really

ought to be minimized if not altogether

avoided now a little bit here and there

it's not going to be a problem no single

food can sway your health in any One

Direction both you know either towards

health or towards disease but it's

really um I think important to be

mindful of all of the many different

places of added sugar in the in the

modern food supply

the other problem which isn't

necessarily a health problem

um but it's a it's a it's a problem with

regard to dose because as I mentioned

dose makes the poison

one of the biggest issues with added

sugar is that it's um our consumption of

it is Insidious meaning it's just hidden

everywhere

whether it's commercial bread products

or sauces or sugar sweetened coffee

drinks

we tend to just consume a ton of your

average adult today is consuming

something like 77 grams of added sugar

every single day if you want to just

like visualize that that's almost 20

teaspoons of pure sugar Jesus Christ

teaspoon 20 teaspoons of pure sugar this

is sugar

extracted from the food Matrix so this

isn't sugar and fruit this is just the

added sugar that we're consuming by way

of these uh food-like products that

Americans

and Brits and people you know

increasingly around the world in in

developed societies are over consuming

today

when I see you know

fizzy drinks that say they don't have

sugar in them

or other things that say they're

sugar-free should I be skeptical because

some some of these things I I'm like I'm

eating this this chocolate bar and I'm

thinking this is too good it says

sugar-free or like really low sugar but

it just tastes like heaven yeah that's a

great that's a great question

um and I haven't gotten asked that

anywhere else uh it's definitely worth

talking about so a lot of like

sugar-free products today

we'll use there's a number of ways to

make a product palatable

and still say that you have that there's

no added sugar so one way is

manufacturers will use a compound called

maltodextrin which is essentially sugar

it's very sweet it's technically a

complex carbohydrate so they don't have

to list it as uh as sugar

but it breaks down almost immediately

into pure glucose so it's actually a

glucose polymer so it's like molecules

of glucose bound together in a way

that's very easy for the body to break

down

um

other ways they'll add fake fibers like

chicory root fiber or tapioca starch

fiber the FDA is currently investigating

whether or not these fibers because the

whole point of fiber is that we don't uh

digest it it's something that passes

through us

maybe it gets fermented by gut

microbiota and our large intestine but

it's unclear as to whether or not

these purported fibers actually act like

fiber once in our bodies

and so

um over consumption of those fibers uh

can cause all kinds of digestive upset a

lot of people will get like incredibly

bloated like all kinds of inconvenient

digestive issues when they over consume

them and you'll see those a lot in like

sugar-free products

um then you've got artificial sweeteners

you've got other non-caloric sweeteners

like Stevia monk fruit there are sugar

alcohols which

um sugar alcohols are an umbrella

category and underneath that umbrella

you've got sugar alcohols that I think

are pretty good actually like erythritol

and Xylitol and then you have others

like maltitol and sorbitol where if you

over consume those again more digestive

upset so you just really want to be

careful with the

the non-caloric sweeteners that you're

ingesting making sure ultimately that

you're not ingesting too much

particularly of like these fake fibers

and some of the artificial or some of

the um you know the sugar alcohols

because they can really wreck your wreck

your gut

what's your personal sort of diet regime

as it relates to sugar do you do you

have sugar in your diet

um

not a ton uh to be honest I try to

minimize my consumption of

um

Ultra processed foods

which are I can Define that if you want

because it's a term that I I feel like I

use a lot these days and you know people

I I tend to use it as if everybody knows

what I'm talking about but essentially

you have unprocessed food which is like

what you'll find around the perimeter of

your Supermarket right meat fish eggs

vegetables fruit

then you have minimally processed foods

so uh ground beef for example has been

minimally processed right

um when you uh cook that beef you're

essentially processing

beef right you're processing food when

you cook it a fruit smoothie is

essentially processed fruit because

you're you're taking a few you're taking

some of the steps away

um

with regard to the assimilation process

right with a fruit smoothie you no

longer have to chew fruit you now

suddenly get to drink your fruit

um Ultra processed foods and you can do

all of those by the way in your kitchen

so that's the distinction Ultra

processed foods are foods that you

couldn't possibly make in your own

kitchen they tend to be shelf stable

they tend to so you tend to find them in

the aisles of our supermarkets they have

long shelf lives

they come in packages

they tend to have long ingredients lists

um oftentimes with ingredients that you

don't recognize so that right there is a

key you know some people listening to

this might say oh well that's a

naturalistic fallacy not everything that

we can pronounce is good for us and not

everything that we can't pronounce is

bad for us right I think that's a pretty

poor argument I actually think that

um it's reasonable in a time where 60 of

the calories

uh a person your average person is

consuming

is coming from these Ultra processed

foods and we know that people are

metabolically unwell

um and we know also that like the food

industry has lied to us so many times in

the past as they continue to put profit

over

um you know consumer health and

well-being I think it's totally

reasonable to want to know what's in

your food

um and uh and so yeah so if you can't

identify

and therefore recreate the product in

question chances are it's an ultra

processed food product

I was going to ask the question then are

all Ultra processed foods

bad

Greg Westman

um

so I would say that uh as a as a

screening tool

um Ultra process foods you generally

want to avoid them

as a

diagnostic tool

um you know our individual food products

that happen to be ultra processed

necessarily bad by virtue of their

processing not all the time and some

examples of some Ultra processed foods

that I think are actually

um quite good although again they are in

the minority

would be for example like whey protein

you couldn't make whey protein or most

of us couldn't make whey protein in our

kitchens right uh

fat free Greek plain Greek yogurt I

think is a great high protein low-cost

low calorie food you know you couldn't

generally you couldn't make that in your

kitchen like you would you know you

could if you really like wanted to put

in the the time and effort dark

chocolate is something that you know

tends to be made in a in a plant right

but um we know that there are

significant benefits to the consumption

of dark chocolate I think food

manufacturers are becoming wise to uh to

this and so now you'll find like various

high protein options that that are shelf

stable and the like and you know it

really has to be determined on a

case-by-case basis

um

but just in general Ultra processed

foods are are a big problem because they

tend to be not the best for us like the

mo the majority of ultra processed foods

that people are consuming are refined

grain products packed with added sugar

um excess sodium sodium is not bad but

like you know we tend to over consume it

today because of its presence in you

know in in uh in these Ultra processed

products

as if used as a flavor enhancer

um so yeah so most Ultra processed

products are bad and it's sort of like

the analogy that I'll draw it's sort of

like the BMI

um I don't know if you're familiar with

BMI but BMI is a way that it's a

screening tool for obesity so when you

look at the population level

um most people with a certain BMI

um past a certain level are either obese

or severely obese

um and it's a screening tool it's not a

it's not a tool that any physician would

use to diagnose obesity because you have

to look specifically at a person's body

composition you hear stories all the

time like the rock being technically

obese right that's why BMI is not a good

diagnostic tool but it is a it is a

fairly

um trustworthy screening tool so

similarly Ultra processed foods yeah

there are definitely some exceptions but

in general they're a food category to be

minimized I've been um I'm just off the

back of trying to trying to have a

ketogenic diet

I tried

for about two months yeah went well in

terms of The Superficial results I think

I was seeking

um felt great as well in terms of my

Focus my performance I just felt really

good I felt lighter I the the digestive

challenges I was having and the pains

and the bloating had completely vanished

for those two months but I couldn't

stick at it because maybe you know maybe

I have fragile willpower or something

but and then I had two guests come on my

podcast who talked about the ketogenic

diet and they both alluded to the fact

that the issue with it is your human's

ability to like stick to the thing yeah

what's your position on the ketogenic

diet and you know I know in your in your

book I think chapter 11 you talk a

little bit about

um you seem very pro-ketogenic diet yeah

I'm Pro I'm Pro the ketogenic diet in

certain contexts okay

um I'm not a pro I'm not necessarily Pro

the ketogenic diet

um in every context I you don't need to

be on a ketogenic diet for weight loss

um I think that's a big misconception

um but the reason why I talk about it

I mean you have to understand the

context

of the ketogenic diet Within

genius foods which is that from the

standpoint of the brain it's a very

important diet it's an important diet to

study it's an important diet to talk

about as I've mentioned we've been using

it to treat certain types of epilepsy

for

a hundred years at this point and that's

because it's the only diet that changes

the the biochemistry of the brain like

it does that in a very

um significant way it provides an

alternate fuel substrate to the brain

which normally relies on glucose but in

certain in certain uh situations

um the brain can't rely on glucose for

example with traumatic brain injury

or

um certainly in the setting of

Alzheimer's disease where the brain's

ability to generate ATP from glucose ATP

is the brain's primary energetic

currency

um is diminished by about 50 percent and

so you know if you're able to

essentially keep the lights on so to

speak by providing the brain with this

alternate fuel source then that's a

really uh powerful idea and needs to be

studied and there have been a number of

studies

um on you know in the setting of

Alzheimer's disease

that have shown that um at least in the

short term the ketogenic diet seems to

provide some degree of uh symptom

Improvement which I think is is is

really important now does that mean that

the ketogenic diet is going to be right

for every dementia dementia patient

certainly not because you know it's a

it's an it is an incredibly hard diet to

adhere to and particularly for somebody

with dementia I mean putting somebody

with dementia on any kind of diet

outside of the diet that they're used to

is virtually impossible right but in

Alzheimer's disease specifically

patients with Alzheimer's disease will

actually start to develop a sweet tooth

and it's thought that that's in part the

brain a response to the brain crying out

for energy because its ability to create

energy again from sugar is diminished by

50 percent

and so getting somebody you know with

dementia to adhere to that diet it's

just really difficult to do but if we

can you know if if for example the

reader of my book you know were to one

day have some kind of neurological

condition and want to experiment with

that then that's a great thing you know

we also have various uh ketogenic

Therapies

like whether it's MCT oil or powder or

these exogenous Ketone supplements

um I know people tend to roll their eyes

and think that these are like a fad now

but there's actually an FDA approved

medical food on the market for the

treatment of uh dementia called Axona

which is basically based on these medium

chain triglycerides so this is uh this

is like real science

um there's uh there's now lots of

evidence

um suggesting that ketogenic diets can

be useful in in the setting of various

types of mental illness

so yeah so that so I mean I just think

it's it's so crucially important to talk

about now does your average person need

to be on a ketogenic diet for for good

health no does the average person need

to be on a ketogenic diet to prevent

dementia no

similarly you know it's the same thing

with like a uh for for type 2 diabetes

which is now super common it's not that

sugar in the diet caused type 2 diabetes

it's the over consumption of calories

and the like and it's the overfilling I

mean we that's a whole different rabbit

hole but the overfilling of a person's

fat silos that then causes fat to

accumulate

um in other organ tissues

um and so carbohydrates are part of that

problem but does that mean that

carbohydrates caused the issue not

necessarily however for somebody with

type 2 diabetes who essentially has

gotten to a point of glucose intolerance

yeah being on a low carb diet might

actually be a good therapeutic option

it's not fixing the issue

um so to speak but that's the same I

would say that's the analogy that I

would draw to the ketogenic diet it's a

it's a powerful therapeutic diet and

um yeah and we have to we have to keep

talking about it there's a lot of

there's a lot of people that will like

you know

that will try to censor you and talking

about it

um now from the vegan camp like the the

the

you know people who who advocate for

these plant-based diets because the

ketogenic diet tends to be a diet that

is inclusive of animal products you know

in some iterations of it it might even

be in a high Animal product diet right

um but they're they they're just like

against it because it includes animal

products but if you're talking about

neurology and you're not also talking

about the ketogenic diet then you're

doing a massive disservice to uh to

patients I think around the world on

that point of vegans vegetarians vegans

one of the things you've said is that

you think they're putting themselves at

increased risk of mental health problems

and dementia because

some of the important chemicals to avert

those diseases are found in animal

products like fish and eggs and meat and

stuff like that

um is that is that Acura

yeah well certainly

um

certainly eating fish is associated with

reduced risk dementia yes yeah

um but also now we're starting to see uh

other forms of animal products like beef

chicken Dairy are associated with

reduced risk of cognitive decline

we know that animal products are the

richest source of choline

and we've seen that higher consumption

of choline is associated with reduced

risk of cognitive decline there were

just over the past year there have been

a number of really uh important studies

generally observational in nature that's

kind of one of the uh issues with

nutrition science it's really we we have

very few long-term you know randomized

controlled trials to to show us with

certainty that these connections are

causal but the UK biobank study which is

a very large population 500 000 people

um observational study found that uh

a dose response meaning the more

um I believe uh

animal products were consumed the lower

the risk of dementia and Alzheimer's

Disease by a pretty significant margin

we see that red meat is not associated

um with the kinds of health problems

that you know we've been told for

decades cancer and stuff and yeah I mean

it's dietary quality as a whole there

was a great study people can look up

maximova is the first author I believe

the the year it was published was 2017

or 2018

they looked at all cause cancer and they

found that when people were eating meat

on a low quality diet meaning meat in

the context of fast food right that yeah

there wasn't increased risk for cancer

but one once diet quality was high

meaning that people's people were eating

meat with fresh fruits and vegetables

clearly a dietary pattern indicative of

Health Consciousness that that risk of

cancer was completely abolished

um so yeah like you know early on in in

nutrition I think

it was you know with with poor quality

studies

um sponsored by people that have a dog

in the fight yeah exactly it's it's very

easy to zoom out at the population level

and to see links drawn between

meat consumption and

anything bad imaginable right because

most of the time first of all most

people people who consume more meat

especially in this country tend to be

more sedentary and they tend to smoke

more they tend to this is the whole

concept of healthy user bias which is so

crucially important you have to know if

you intend to know anything about

nutrition you have to know about healthy

user bias

people who eat more red meat they tend

to smoke more they tend to be more

sedentary you know they tend to eat more

fast food like most meat products

consumed in this country are hamburgers

they're chicken nuggets you know like

they're like they're those kinds of

foods Ultra processed meat products

conversely if you look at the

consumption of fresh fruits and

vegetables you see healthy user bias

there too favoring fresh fruits and

vegetables and that's you know it's

pretty obvious to understand why most

people today are like obese they're

consuming Ultra processed foods day and

night fast food shelf stable convenience

Foods the kinds of foods that you Foods

in quotes that you would get from like a

vending machine for example those are

like that's those are the foods that are

like the base of most people's food

pyramids so to speak

and so if you were to take a food like

quinoa for example which first of all if

you know how to pronounce quinoa you're

probably reading Health blogs right

you've probably listened to a health

podcaster too right consumption of

quinoa is probably Associated I don't I

don't know if this study has been done

but I would bet I would bet 500 today

that consumption of quinoa is associated

with robust health is it because the

quinoa is so healthy or is because the

person that's eating quinoa on a regular

basis that person probably a pretty

health conscious person that person

probably shops at Whole Foods that

person is probably has a gym membership

you know so that's healthy user buys

right there

and so it works um in the inverse sort

of way with red meat there are very few

health conscious like red meat eaters I

mean there are more now but we're like

sort of a niche you know like where

people on the paleo diet so to speak uh

most people who consume red meat yeah

they're eating it in the form of hot

dogs and hamburgers and Subway

sandwiches with the fries with the large

Coke so all that is to say is that it's

very easy to find like links and that's

why there's this funny

truism in like nutrition science is that

if you look in the nutrition literature

you can find a study to back up anything

that you want to say I'm always hyper

conscious of that

um but that's certainly the case with me

because you know these observational

studies they just they they're so

difficult to do but now newer studies

are showing us that when you control for

these kinds of things like Diet quality

that there's no association you know

that there's that that meat actually is

a very nutritious food

um and with the small uh slew of

randomized controlled trials that we

have with regard to red meat we see no

negative impact with regard to an actual

like real clinical outcome and

oftentimes we see benefit because it's a

pristine wonderful source of protein

It's a Wonderful source of many

micronutrients that we know are people

tend to under consume today nutrients of

of concern so to speak like zinc vitamin

B12 nutrients that we know that people

directly need iron iron deficiency

anemia is a real Global problem one in

four people globally are anemic in half

of those cases are due to iron

deficiency and red meat is like the

ultimate iron supplement you know

so yeah so I get passionate about this I

think in part because my mom was a

vegetarian and um there were many times

as I was uh you know reading about all

this stuff

that

um I wanted to like shake my mom and be

like you know Mom you're you're you're

letting your ideology impact your

biology you know that's like not

something that you want to happen

and um

and you know I would never go so far as

to say that I know what caused my mom's

illness like you know I I don't even

know if it was her lack of consuming

meat I don't know but um it's clear that

her you know low meat diet

um didn't didn't protect her you know

and I'm pretty convinced at this point

that um

that sum is certainly better than none

you know it doesn't I don't I don't

Advocate I think some people think that

I advocate for a high meat diet or even

like a carnivore diet I don't I just I

really think it's an important

um part of a balanced diet

um and uh and a highly nutritious part

of a diet it's actually like red meat

and animal products in general they they

tend to be our most nutrient-dense Foods

there was a paper by um Ty Beale who's a

nutrition researcher whose work I follow

um that found that if you looked at the

top six or so

most nutrient dense foods available to

us they're all animal products with the

exception of maybe uh dark leafy greens

which are also very nutrient dense so

yeah I'm pretty um Unapologetic in my my

endorsement of um of animal products

yeah you in um speaking of dark leafy

greens and animal products and such in

um in your book in on page three engine

one you talk about clearing out your

kitchen now I'm I'm well aware when I

asked this question that if you if you

were clearing out my kitchen you'd first

throughout all of the ultra processed

foods

probably maybe yeah I mean I would want

you to do whatever's in my best interest

I'd be yeah I'd be gentle okay next all

sources of Wheat and gluten is the point

number two yeah all sources of gluten

um

that's all my bread gone yeah well my

noodles are gonna go as well

I think that my my stance has has

softened a little bit since I wrote that

I like the Savage let's keep it moving

yes

um sources of industrial grade

emulsifiers what is an industrial grade

emulsifier and why is it got to go yeah

so specifically um in the book we call

out polysorbate 80 and

carboxymethylcellulose which are uh

synthetic emulsifiers that are used to

create pleasing mouth fuels in Foods

usually combined that that combine

hydrophilic and hydrophobic substances

so oil and water or fatty substances and

more aqueous solution and so the you

know the the archetypes of those Foods

would be nut milks and ice creams

and what they've shown in animal models

to be clear salad dressings and stuff as

well yeah yeah salad dressings

um what they've shown in animal models

is that those substances

um degrade the mucosa this like really

important lining that separates the

inner contents of our GI tract from the

uh from the up our gut epithelial cells

um which you know there's a a chapter in

genius foods that I'm very proud of on

the gut microbiome all the new science

surrounding the gut microbiome and how

you know the gut brain axis really in

many ways influences not just brain

function but might have an effect on our

predilection to disease

and so anything that inflames the gut

the gut isn't like Vegas like what

happens in the gut doesn't necessarily

stay in the gut and so these two

compounds were shown

um in animal models to uh have a

profound inflammatory effect

um on the on the gut

and so I recommend uh looking out for

them and avoiding them now they're also

a

sort of a proxy or surrogate if you will

for Ultra processed foods like Ultra

processed foods are going to have those

two compounds in them

um as opposed to Fresh Foods so

the dose makes the poison

um but uh but yeah I would recommend uh

avoiding them because that study was

like pretty

pretty eye-opening

um and The Chronic the consumption of

those two uh compounds I would say

probably worth

um

you know avoiding I'm looking at this

list of stuff that you you've asked me

to check out my kitchen and there's a

lot of things here that are currently in

my kitchen beverages fruit juice been a

big fruit juice Drinker my whole life

when I was younger they told me that

[ __ ] they told me that orange juice

was healthy I was guzzling orange juice

thinking I was doing my body a a huge

service and doing so and then over time

I've come to learn from having

conversations like this that these fruit

juices I thought when I had a fruit when

I had like a fruit smoothie I thought I

was like you know I was paying homage to

my body but I've come to learn that I

was probably doing my body a disservice

in many respects because of the the

sugar the available sugar yeah I mean

you can squeeze the fruit sugar from

five six oranges in one glass of orange

juice I mean think about it the last

time you like ate a whole Apple did you

feel afterwards that you wanted to go

and eat another Apple

no I mean I only ever eat one apple at a

time there you go right yeah well I

think the reason for that is probably

that whole fruit is self-limiting

because it kills you a bit more than it

fills you a bit more yeah first of all

you're eating it there's a speed at

which you're eating it that's a lot

slower than when you drink the fruit

juice so it takes a lot you know it it

allows your body or stomach to realize

that it's it now has food in it to turn

off some of those hunger signals like

the hormone growing you also when you

chew it you know you leave large

particles of the Apple that might take

you know an hour to to fully digest

um the food Matrix has fiber in it like

the fiber from that Apple so it slows

the the transit of

um that Sugar it slows that it blunts

basically the blood sugar Spike

um you're also getting lots of water

along with the you know the the sugar

that you're consuming when you consume

that Apple it's a lot different when

you're just drinking juice you know it's

a lot easier to like to get the fruit

sugar from you know if you're drinking

apple juice for example you can easily

drink the ju the sugar of five six

apples in one glass but you know after

eating a delicious even the most

delicious Honeycrisp apple which I love

it's like one of one of my favorite

foods I've never felt the need to go and

try another one another one the way that

when I'm eating tortilla chips you know

while I'm chewing on one tortilla chip

I'm already you know lusting after the

one that's in my hands right I'm not

even like focused on the one that's in

my mouth

and so why is that I'm like that with so

many foods like if I have one Pringle I

there's it's going to take a lot to stop

me getting to the bottom yeah and I

don't know why it's like suddenly I

become a pringle addict and I've always

wondered why that is because you know

brussels sprouts broccoli you know

I have one I have two I have three okay

we're done yeah but the Pringles I can

I'll get to the bottom unless I'm in a

social situation where I feel slightly

embarrassed by eating an entire like

tube of Pringles

well they're I mean it's Pringles once

you pop you can't stop that is a that is

a truism with scientific backing like

that we know that Pringles are Ultra

processed we know that they're minimally

satiating

there are three characteristics that

make a food satiating and Pringles lack

all of them so one is protein protein is

the most satiating of the macronutrients

So for anybody struggling with hunger

pangs or whatever prioritize protein in

your diet increase the amount of protein

that you're consuming for a person with

healthy kidneys there is absolutely

nothing to worry about with regard to

high protein consumption

it's the most satiating macronutrient

and it is a really important

macronutrient for nourishing or

musculature and ultimately yes washing

our hunger like when you eat more

protein you eat less carbs and fat and

carbs and fat are energy protein is it's

very difficult for your body to store

protein your body doesn't

your body doesn't want a storm there's

so many uses for protein in your body

whether it's to create neurotransmitters

or to rebuild your muscle tissue or your

bones or ligaments like to create

enzymes I mean protein like there's

protein has so many roles in the body

carbs and fat for the most part are Just

Energy I mean there's no such thing as

an essential carbohydrate that's not to

say that carbohydrates are bad by the

way because a lot of people will hear

that and say oh I don't I could you know

get by on zero carbohydrates

carbohydrates are important for

optimizing hormones for optimizing

exercise performance but there's no such

thing as an essential carbohydrate it's

essentially energy

and so too is fat I mean fat is energy

as well

um we have a minimal daily requirement

for essential fats

um and we see that higher fat can

support

um energy you know as I mentioned you

don't want to go low fat because fat

supports hormone production we see the

people on low-fat diets tend to have

lower testosterone it also facilitates

the absorption of very important fat

soluble

um

nutrients like vitamins AED and K and

various fat soluble plant compounds but

it's carbohydrates

and fat that our energy very easily

stored

um by the body you know if we uh we can

easily store carbohydrates in our liver

as sugar glycogen

um and in our musculature and we can

easily store fat

um in in fat so protein very difficult

to store uh so that's the other that's

that's the first factor that makes a

food satiating Pringles are a low

protein food the second factor is fiber

Pringles are devoid of largely devoid of

fiber fiber slows you know like we saw

in the in the Apple example it slows the

transit of food in the stomach it makes

us feel more satiated it also absorbs

water and it mechanically stretches out

the stomach which turns off

um

certain hunger hormones like ghrelin for

example is it good for weight loss yeah

it's good for weight loss to prioritize

protein and fiber dietary fiber and then

um water so water is the number one

enemy of shelf stability and so Ultra

processed foods they want long shelf

lives that's like key to a profitable

Ultra processed food product right it

can be shipped overseas it can stay for

months on the Shelf

very little waste

and uh and so products like uh Pringles

devoid of what they're completely

dehydrated right and water sometimes

when we're hungry we're actually thirsty

it's just that those wires are getting

sort of crossed and miscommunicated but

your average hunter-gatherer didn't have

access to

you know running water they couldn't

just pop into their local like gas

station and buy bottled water you know

where did uh hunter-gather find water

when it wasn't uh readily available

um they would get it from food they

would get it from fruits and vegetables

and even animal products are a good

source of hydration so oftentimes when

we're when we think that we're hungry we

just need a little bit of hydration so

all those three factors the protein the

fiber and the and the hydration

are all like severely lacking in

Pringles and other Ultra processed foods

not to call out specifically yeah

um yeah but uh these kinds of foods that

we Now consume to our detriment today in

the 21st century would have potentially

saved the life of a hunter-gatherer one

of our ancestors back prior to the

ubiquity of food stability

so yeah not to hate on your on your

Pringles addiction no it's fine they're

out ladies and gentlemen I am so excited

um to introduce and to announce that we

have a brand new sponsor on this podcast

and it's a brand that I've used for the

last decade

um across business across personal life

when I'm holidaying when I'm traveling

for works even at times when I haven't

had somewhere to live and that is Airbnb

the thing with Airbnb is most people

when they think about Airbnb they think

about the guest side of the the product

they think about staying somewhere and

scrolling through all of the incredible

homes that you can stay in but the

entrepreneur in me has always thought

about the other side which is what space

do I have what space am I living in that

I could add from a supply side and to

create a revenue stream from that's what

I'm fascinated by and I'll be sharing

details about that side of Airbnb in the

coming episodes thank you Airbnb for

supporting us on this show means a lot

reading through your your work was the

first time I encountered this

distinction between Health span and

lifespan in your own assessment like

what is the just difference between

someone's Health span and their lifespan

great question so we're I mean today we

are living longer right thanks to Modern

medical advances

not all of us my mom you know my mom

didn't have a a lengthy lifespan but

generally we're living longer but we are

also dying longer and what I mean by

that is that we're spending our health

spans are shrinking so our lifespans are

expanding

but we're actually spending more of our

life especially particularly in our

latter years sick

burdened with with chronic disease and

disability

and so I think it's really important

that we not just have

um a lengthening lengthening of lifespan

in our crosshairs but that we also

aspire to lengthen our health spans so

we want to we want to prevent chronic

disease and disability to the best of

our ability

and I think that's that's just crucially

important so what that implies is as we

age you know that we we continue to be

mobile and to move about the world and

to be free of depression and we stay

connected in our in our communities

and I think you know eating a healthy

diet exercising staying socially

connected I mean you know averting

loneliness uh these are all

crucially crucially important and um

and yeah unfortunately today I think we

tend to think only in terms of lifespan

I just want to live as long as possible

but um you know today for many people

particularly in the western world

it's you know it's like uh it's a

double-edged sword because yeah you're

living longer but you're you know most

most people in Elder age today are frail

you know they have chronic chronic

health conditions

um

and uh and it's a big problem

you mentioned depression there

um I've I've been learning a little bit

lately about the role that our diet

plays in our mental health

um you you referenced earlier that your

mother was given antidepressants yes her

eyes when she was going through her her

period of ill health

what's your what's your assessment on

the role that food plays in mental

health what foods are typically in your

view good for our Mental Health

helping us to avoid depression anxiety

whatever else and what foods are

typically bad for our mental health oh

man yeah mental health is so I I learned

this recently which is just shocking

that um the number two cause of death

for people between the ages of

uh 15 and 35

in that sort of ballpark demographic the

second cause of death is uh suicide

and that's just shocking to me the first

is unintentional injury so it's like

drunk driving and just you know doing

stupid things

but yeah when it comes to mental health

I mean our our

mental status is highly responsive to

the outside

to our to our environment and our

environment includes how we're living

Our Lives the people that we surround

ourselves with on a daily basis and

indeed the foods that we're eating so

you know I think when it comes to mental

health there are a number of really

interesting observational studies that

show us that vegan and vegetarian diets

but I think particularly vegan diets are

put people at increased risk for

depression

by the latest data that I've seen at

least a doubling of risk now the

question that always arises there is is

the vegan dietary pattern causing the

depression or are people who are more

prone to depression gravitating to the

vegan diet I think it's probably

bi-directional because we know that

animal products in particular contain

nutrients that are that seem to be very

supportive of good mental health

um there was one study out of deakin

University's food and mood Center that

found that women who didn't consume the

nationally recommended three to four

servings of red meat per week were at

twice the risk of developing major

depression and they didn't see that

Association for other animal

proteins so they didn't say for chicken

and pork and they also saw an increased

risk when people when women ate much

more than the than that three to four

serving recommendation

um and when you actually look into what

red meat contains in it

um it contains a lot of nutrients that

we know directly support the brain

whether it's zinc or vitamin B12

you could look at a food like beef liver

which is one of the best sources of

folate we know that low folate

consumption is associated with

depression

um so I think that's you know I think

animal products super important eggs you

know a rich source of choline

um fatty fish but generally like Whole

Foods I think Whole Foods

a whole food dietary pattern so you know

minimally processed again like the foods

that you find around the perimeter of

the supermarket that you cook for

yourself Mediterranean diets

Mediterranean Salt yeah I Don't Care

What proportion of animal products or

plant products you know you have

although I think including both to some

degree

um is probably better than not

uh provided you're not allergic or or

have any specific sensitivity but um

they're now using diet as an

intervention to improve symptoms so the

same food and mood Center which is

actually one of the institutions that's

really

um that's really kind of championing

this field of nutritional psychiatry

published the first ever randomized

controlled trial where they used a

dietary intervention to treat depression

major depression

so it was called the smiles trial and

anybody can look this up but they used a

a Whole Foods diet Mediterranean style

diet that was inclusive of red meat fish

dark leafy greens berries olive oil eggs

things like that and they found that um

in the patients with major depression

compared to controls that were treated

with the standard of care

they saw they saw something like a

three-fold increase in remission from

the dietary intervention now these were

patients obviously that or or I guess

not obviously but they were patients

that were on a junk food diet right so

if you're on a junk food diet

um which most people are and you're

seeing you know and your mood is not

where you think it ought to be I

absolutely think a first line of defense

should be

you know adopting more of these or

integrating rather more of these um

these these Whole Foods and cutting out

the ultra processed foods and then of

course I mean like sort of uh you can't

really talk about

um lifestyle and mental health without

mentioning exercise exercises you know I

mean there's like a bounty of evidence

at this point showing us that exercise

is like literally medicine for the brain

soon is something you talked about as

well soon as being

having a positive impact on cognitive

function

I believe the chemical is called

norepinephrine norepinephrine yeah

that's what I said or uh I believe on

your side of the pond it's called

noradrenaline it's the same you're

adrenaline okay yeah it's the same same

compound and that has a cognitive

relationship that has a relationship

with cognitive performance yeah so

norepine norepinephrine is actually

produced in a part of the brain called

the locus ceruleus which is like one of

the first structures to

become damaged in Alzheimer's disease

and so that's sort of like the Hub of

norepinephrine release and we see that

when we apply

um physical stress to the body of which

saunas are one type

um that there is a an up regulation of

norepinephrine release and

um and yeah so that might in a way sort

of help uh you know Prime the body to to

adapt and become more resilient because

that's essentially what stressors do to

the body that's the whole concept

underlying hormesis that hormesis which

is like low doses of

low to moderate doses of a stressor

actually are as opposed to being rather

than being than being harmful to the

body actually elicit an Adaptive

response that makes the body

um come out on the other side stronger

and more resilient and so that is the um

that's essentially the mechanism

um the proposed mechanism underlying why

it seems that saunas are beneficial to

our health

and but also exercise and also cold

water immersion and also

um intermittent fasting and also even

some of these like plant compounds you

know like we we consume Myriad uh

compounds and plants that if we were to

consume big doses might actually have a

Toxic effect but in small doses actually

are thought to benefit our health via

this same hormetic pathway but yeah

sauna use a lot of the research is

coming out of the University of Eastern

Finland

which is a a great place for This

research to be done because saunas in

Finland are like taking a shower so you

could say if that study were done if

those studies were being done here in

the United States you could easily write

them off to healthy user bias because

somebody who's regularly saunaing

is um or taking Asana as the Finn say is

probably has access to a gym probably

you know is going to the spa regularly

probably is like putting a great deal of

attention on their own physical health

right but in Finland that's not the case

people aren't doing saunas as like a

health modality they do it because they

love it because it's a self to the you

know to the cold temperatures there and

it's just a part of like the normal like

routine and so what they're finding is

that

um you just using Asana two to three

times a week is associated with a 22

risk reduction for dementia and using it

four to seven times per week is

associated with a 65 reduced risk for

the development of dementia so that's

like a dose response the more you use it

the more robust the health effect seems

to be and it's not just for dementia

they've seen a reduced risk for

hypertension which we know is really

important we know that the brain that

blood pressure is really important from

the standpoint of brain health so you

want to make sure that your blood

pressure is healthy also um

all cause mortality now just to be clear

these are these are still correlational

studies but mechanistically there is

plausibility there and that is you know

we know that

when you use Asana it does have a

positive impact on your blood pressure

we know that it can reduce inflammation

we know that it gets your heart rate up

I mean I know this when I whenever I use

this on I put my finger on the artery in

my wrist and I can see that I'm getting

like almost like a mild aerobic workout

and so we know that that's like that's

saunas are essentially like the best

workout that you can have while sitting

absolutely still you're also purging

toxins through your

um through your sweat

compounds that aren't as

um as effectively excreted via stool in

urine so it's like you know there's

there's a lot of good stuff going for

saunas and of course more research needs

to be done

um but all indicators seem to point

towards a a positive Health effect it's

really interesting that um you know our

ancestors probably had natural stresses

on them at all times and we've kind of

built a life around mitigating stresses

so you know living in very warm like

room temperature

houses sat on sofas use this piece of

glass to order my food my date

to talk to my friends it's almost like

with we're optimizing our lives away

from stresses and these stresses seem to

be so critical to the natural hormone

and physiological responses that make us

healthy human beings totally yeah it's

like I've heard it referred to as like

the Comfort crisis yeah yeah it's it's a

it's a big problem whether it's like

constant you know constant climate

control

um so I mean just like so few of us are

willing at any point to venture out of

our comfort zone and to be uncomfortable

and I think our biology suffers as a

result this isn't just

um you know this is like there's actual

now basic science underpinning this

concept that when we apply stress to the

body

or even via the foods that we consume

this like mild hormetic stress than we

get that we get from certain compounds

whether those compounds are in turmeric

or kale or broccoli or what have you

that

um

what doesn't kill us makes us stronger

and it Fosters a degree of

anti-fragility

which um I love you know I think it's

like I think it's so important I mean if

you think about it we didn't evolve over

Millennia to arrive here and be taken

down by a peanut you know or like or all

of these like you know we're seeing this

this crazy Inc uh

like spike in in autoimmunity in

incidence of autoimmune conditions and

allergies and the like and you know I

think it's a it's a testament to how

disregulated our lifestyles have become

how removed our lifestyles have become

from the kinds from from the world in

which we evolved

and um

and part of what's been lost is the

stress is the beneficial stress as

you've mentioned what is the

unbeneficial stress and the impact it

has I you know chapter 10 you talk a lot

about about chronic stress

one of the one of the things you said

was

um

ever see a person with a bulging

midsection but surprisingly skinny arms

and legs this is the picture of chronic

stress yeah chronic stress is a killer

it I mean we evolved to

see a threat

have a stress response respond to that

threat and then go back to our Baseline

level of functioning right today our

stressors come not from physical threat

right from the lion on the Savannah

that's running towards us or towards our

progeny

um where the the stress that we that

most of us experience today

it's a new breed of stress it's from you

know it's from work it's from it's from

chronic consumption of the news media

it's from being stuck in relationships

that have gone sour working jobs that we

hate

Financial stress I mean there's all

different kinds of stress and not all of

that stress is avoidable just to be

clear I mean when I was going through

what I went through with my mom I

couldn't avoid that stress but what did

I do

as a as a way to cope because I couldn't

avoid it I built up my own resilience

and we see that

um you know whether it's exercise or

these hormetic stressors that we were

talking about that you actually can by

exposing your body to physical stress

you can bolster a degree of

psychological stress there's what's

called a spillover effect

um and and a cross-adaptation effect

that occurs

but chronic stress I mean one of the

problems is that it's like it's

sustained and it causes a change in our

hormonal milieu that suppresses immune

function

it

um causes our adipocytes so our fat

cells to release pro-inflammatory

compounds

um pro-inflammatory cytokines it causes

this you know chronic release of the

hormone cortisol which is not a bad

hormone by any means but you know that

can over time have a negative effect on

um brain function on on memory function

it impairs digestion when we're

chronically stressed and we know that

um you know the gut is crucially

important when it comes to modulating

inflammation in our bodies helping us to

assimilate nutrients from the foods that

we're consuming and if you're

chronically stressed you're just not

doing that as well also people who are

chronically stressed I mean they have

digestive symptoms right as a result

whether it's like diarrhea bloating like

I mean this is people like before public

speaking they often see a

um they often have like digestive

symptoms right that just goes to show

you how intricately connected like our

our perception of of a of a of of like

you know stress and how that can affect

our biology

um and so that example that I gave in

the book

about that apple shaped torso one of the

most harmful places to store fat um in

the body is in our midsection so that

apple shaped body that is attributable

to an excess of visceral fat and this is

fat that essentially hugs our internal

organs and is particularly

pro-inflammatory so it secretes as I

mentioned we know our that our fat is an

endocrine organ which is essentially an

organ that secretes hormones

um it's not just an inert storage site

and

those fat cells have

um I believe uh four times the cortisol

receptors as compared to regular

run-of-the-mill subcutaneous fat that

you store in your like you know

underneath your arms and you know on

your thighs and we know that visceral

fat is

um associated with dramatically you know

worse cardiovascular health increased

risk of cardiovascular events we know

that as your waist expands your brain

shrinks yeah well it's it's probably

related to

cortisol because we know that cortisol

causes that when cortisol is chronically

elevated and particularly when we're we

then self-medicate with these Ultra

processed foods foods that are high in

sugar right which we all reach for when

we're stressed out right to emotional

like to to soothe ourselves right with

food

we tend to store fat

um there like in the midsection so

it's not that stress uh causes us to

store more fat necessarily I mean fat

storage is largely regulated by energy

balance but what it can do is dictate

where we store that fat and as I've

mentioned it's the storage of fat in our

midsection that's particularly dangerous

and so um

and so yes so that that the effect that

cortisol can have there it also it has a

negative effect on other tissues

um it can have a negative effect on our

um total brain volume as we've seen in

some studies

um

just to be where does Cortisol come from

our adrenal glands adrenal glands yeah

and there's certain foods that stimulate

the production of cortisol more than

others not Foods

um it's just it's stress you know and

there are certain conditions that are

associated with um

hypercortisonemia

um but um but no food it's not food that

I would it's not the foods Foods

actually can like bring down cortisol

you know so some people like like sugar

like sugary foods like you know like a

lot of people

um anecdotally at least will uh see an

improvement in their sleep when they

consume a little bit of like honey

before bed for example because that can

sort of bring down cortisol right if

they hadn't if they pre you know for

example skip dinner or had they they had

an earlier dinner or they had a

particularly like low carb dinner or

maybe they're in like a calorie deficit

um so that can all cause cortisol to

kind of inch its way up

and um and carbohydrates are good at

sort of like

pumping the break on on cortisol release

that's one of the reasons why we tend to

reach four sugary Foods when we

experience chronic stress so it's like

this vicious cycle right but the way to

pump the brakes on cortisol release is

not to like just keep eating sugary

Foods it's to find and uproot the cause

of the stress you know get out of the

job that you hate break up with the

person who's driving you crazy on a

chronic basis you mentioned honey though

and sleep

um something again I've been thinking a

lot about ever since I bought myself a

whoop

um which tracks my sleep and gives me

some data in the morning about how I

slept is how to improve my sleep via my

diet

um what advice would you give me there

if I wanted to have deeper

deeper uh more quality sleep what should

I be eating not eating avoiding what

times

Etc yeah I mean generally you just you

want to not eat too close to bedtime

[Music]

um there's sort of like a Goldilocks

Zone where you know I think we're met as

diurnal creatures meaning creatures that

are that typically eat during the day

you want to eat your last meal about two

to three hours before you go to sleep

you don't want to go to bed hungry I

mean people people obviously have

different

um

you know different preferences and I

think preference in many ways uh Reigns

supreme but what we know from circadian

biology is that we're meant to eat about

two to three hours before we go to sleep

and um

and you don't you know like that's to

give space between your last meal and

sleep because sleep is a time for

rebuilding and restoring we see this

like interesting hormonal shift in the

body that is really like it's why sleep

is you know we rejuvenate in many ways

like our bodies our cells our tissues

when sleeping

part of like how we get there is a

change in body temperature

and you know we see this like this this

dip in body temperature right before we

go to sleep

um or just after actually we we go to

sleep if you eat a like a really like

meat heavy meal right before you go to

sleep

um a lot of people notice that doing

that can negatively impair sleep and I

think one of the one of the proposed

mechanisms why that happens

is that

we have the thermic effect of protein is

quite High

particularly compared to fat and

carbohydrates and so you've got this

like internal furnace like burning in

your gut like to try to break down and

assimilate all of the precious amino

acids that you've just ingested and so I

think that can sometimes be at odds with

um with like that wind down process that

circadian you know wind down process so

yeah just I would try not to eat too

close to bedtime many people

um feel like eating carbs before bed

does help them sleep for that same

reason like maybe they have cortisol you

know still like

[Music]

um

you know a bit of of cortisol

dysregulation and carbs before bed uh

seems to seems to be able to help with

that

um what do you when do you eat if if not

before bed like you know sometimes I've

been guilty of eating while I'm falling

asleep this is old Steve not new Steve

um but when do you eat you talked about

intermittent fasting I read some things

that said you start eating roughly at

like 11 o'clock in the morning

yeah what's the window in which you you

eat I generally will yeah I don't I

generally won't have my first like food

until

um these days it's about 10 30 10 30 uh

11 in the morning I've been

experimenting with um

carbohydrates before exercise for a long

time I was I really enjoyed fasted

workouts

and um

and lately I've been experimenting to

see what a little bit of Perry workout

carbohydrate does for my for my lifts

because I'm really into I love Fitness