saw a video that you made it punched me

in the face the reason why my TED Talks

went viral was because Dr Robert

waldinger a Harvard psychiatrist and

director of the longest study ever done

on what makes humans live happy or

unhappy lives is Ted Talk is one of the

most viewed of all time for 85 years

we've tracked the lives of 724 families

through their entire adult lives looking

at mental health physical health to see

what really keeps people happy and

healthy some of the participants donated

their brains they have we know so much

about them in life and now we get to

examine their brains most surprising

finding in the study was that it's our

relationships that keep us healthier and

happier there is research that shows

that actually people who are married men

live 12 years longer and women live

seven years longer that said it's it's

not the marriage license it's about

starting in the 1950s we stopped

investing in other people being lonely

is as dangerous to your health as

smoking half a pack of cigarettes a day

isolation can break down your coronary

arteries your joints the brain declines

sooner my mission now is going to be to

bring this science that we've worked so

hard to develop and bring it to people

in ways that they can use looking at

that research what are the factors that

made those relationships most successful

well most surprising finding in the

study was that

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[Music]

Robert

who are you and

what is the mission that you're on

I am a psychiatrist I'm uh a married

father of two grown sons I'm a Zen

priest and I'm a researcher and the

mission that I'm on

is to relieve the suffering that's

optional in the world that's the vow I

took as a Zen priest

what is that optional suffering you're

referring to well there's some suffering

that's not optional right there's pain

there's there's so many things that we

can't control that hurt that that we

suffer from but then there's optional

suffering there are all the the stories

we tell ourselves about

things that turn out not to be true

things that I worry about that turn out

to amount to nothing

um

Mark Twain had a wonderful quote that I

love he said some of the worst things in

my life never happened and and that's

the optional suffering that we're

talking about the all the ways that we

imagine things that make us suffer a

great deal

so let's go down those two paths

psychiatrist and Zen priest what does it

mean to be a psychiatrist what does that

mean practically in terms of your work

it means working with people who are

struggling with

mental illnesses with conditions for

which we have help and some of the help

is medication some of the help it's talk

therapy

um

I became fascinated by how the mind

works that was what was most exciting

for me when I was a medical student

and I realized that it was going to keep

me interested most of my career and it

has because everybody's so different I

mean I realized that if you treat one

case of high blood pressure you sort of

know what the next one's going to look

like but when you talk to a new person

it's never the same as the person you

talked to last week so being a

psychiatrist for me is getting to take

deep Dives

into people's life experience

there's a there's a through line here to

the third pillar of

um

what I find so absolutely fascinating

about you and it's also the thing that

introduced me to you many years ago I

was a young man who was incredibly I

would say

I would say addicted to some degree to

work I was pursuing money at all costs

um I was that sort of typical Millennial

I think you've referenced in the book

that had his priorities and all the

wrong orders particularly at that point

I'd sacrificed so many things the stuff

that you write about that makes life so

meaningful presence I you know my

happiness was off somewhere in the

future behind some future imaginary goal

and I was sat in a room in Manchester

I think I was in a region of

I'm gonna say somewhere between 18 and

20 years old

and then I saw a video that you had made

a TED Talk you had done it's one of the

most watched TED talks of all time and

it was about it was the longest study on

happiness ever done it was the Harvard

study of adult development I think it's

called and it

it punched me in the face

and it punched me in the face because

I've never forgotten it and I've talked

about it frequently you know every

quarter or every couple of months since

then but it punched me in the face

because it made me confront something

that I think

I knew at some deeper level

I was maybe getting wrong and that was

the nature of what really makes us happy

as humans yeah

um

can you tell me about the Harvard study

of adult development what what the aim

of it was and how you in particular got

involved with it sure

um the study is the longest study of

human life that's ever been done as far

as we know of the same people going

through their entire adult lives that's

what's so rare about it most research is

snapshots in the moment or over two

weeks or a month so this is over 85

years

724 families it was started in 1938 it

started as two studies that actually

didn't know about each other one was a

study of Harvard college students 19

year olds young men who were thought by

the Deans to be fine upstanding

specimens and this was going to be a

study of normal development from

adolescents into young adulthood I mean

now we smile because you know if you

want to study normal development you

study all white males from Harvard you

don't do that it's so Politically

Incorrect but at that time that's what

they were doing and the other study was

started at Harvard Law School by a law

professor and his wife a social worker

who were interested in juvenile

delinquency and they were particularly

interested in how some children from

really troubled backgrounds managed to

stay out of trouble and stay on good

developmental paths like how how could

that be what were the conditions that

allowed these young people to thrive

so they chose boys from the city of

Boston in 1938 whose families were known

to on average five social service

agencies for domestic violence parental

mental illness physical illness

and they studied all those boys again

looking at what makes people thrive and

so both of these studies

were studies of good normal development

instead of studies of what goes wrong

most of what we study is what goes wrong

so that we can help people

so these were Radical in that sense and

then nobody expected the studies to last

more than five or the most ten years

and the founders of the study would

never have dreamed that you and I would

be talking about this study today and

the fact that we're still collecting

data even as we speak

from the children of all of these

original 724 families

wow

you're still collecting data from the

children of the participants yes and are

the founders of the studies still alive

oh no they're long gone

um I'm the fourth director

um wow

and the third director was my teacher

when I was a medical student he lectured

to my class about this study of men who

were then in their 50s and I thought

this is amazing and then about 15 years

later he took me out to lunch one day

and said how would you like to inherit

this study and I was flabbergasted but

very excited to be able to do it what

was the study aiming to to answer

it was looking at the big domains of

life it was looking at mental health

physical health work life and

relationships and

what the study has done is looked at all

of those same domains over and over

again year after year for 85 years

what's exciting for me about it is that

we've changed our methods so initially

there were interviews and medical exams

and people went to their homes and

talked to their parents well now we draw

blood for DNA I mean DNA wasn't even

imagined in 1938 we put people into MRI

scanners and watch their brains light up

when we show them different kinds of

images and you know that was that would

have been science fiction to scientists

in 1938 so what I love is we're studying

the same subjects but we're studying

them using very different methods over

time

I read that some of the participants of

the study that have passed away

have donated their brains

they have we have about 30 brains

sitting on shelves in a laboratory at

Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston

and and what's rare about them most

brains are collected because there was a

big problem in life for example Dementia

or a brain tumor or something these are

normal brains and so

what's rare is that these are brains

about which we know what their life was

like when they were 20 years old when

they were 30 years old

we know so much about them in life and

now we get to examine their brains

so this study you became the director of

it

um let's start top level then how did

this study sets out to answer some of

the big questions in life the most

important things about what makes us

happy what keeps us healthy socially

healthy physically healthy you've got

the longest study of of humans that

anyone thinks has ever been done you've

been studying them for decades upon

decades looking at that research and

being a first party to all of that

that information how has it changed you

it's very much made me take care of my

own relationships so because the biggest

most surprising finding in the study was

that it's our relationships that keep us

healthier and happier

you know I'm a Harvard Professor I could

work non-stop until I drop dead I mean

that's just the way Academia works

and what I realized was particularly

once my kids weren't there pulling me

away to go take them somewhere or do

something with them that I could just

work all the time and so what I've

started doing is to be much more

intentional about calling my friends

about saying let's go for a walk let's

go out to dinner let's make sure we get

together I never would have done that

before particularly as a man I think

women are much better my wife is much

better at calling friends on the phone

at making sure they get together I had

to teach myself to do that I had to make

myself do it I had to take my own

medicine if you will based on what I was

studying in my work life

what do we what do we get wrong about

the the subject matter of Happiness like

if you were to ask those participants

what they thought would cause happiness

in their lives or you were to ask I

don't know a millennial what are the

answers that we say and how wrong are we

and are we good at knowing

someone asked me this yesterday at an

event they put their hand up and they

said

we're talking about remote working and

this whole change disruption that's

happened in the workplace and they put

the hand up I think they're a CEO and

they said do my employees actually know

what they want

and it was a really curious question I

ended up answering and this is maybe a

little bit controversial but I ended up

answering that most of us don't know

what we want in most facets of our life

yes and we're bad at knowing what's

going to make us happy I'll give you an

example and it's in the book

um there was a study in the city of

Chicago

where

they were studying commuters people who

were about to get on the train and take

the train to work like they did every

day

and so they they took a random sample of

people in one group and they were

assigned to do what they always do on

the train it could have been listening

to music or reading the news on their

phone whatever they did the other group

randomly was assigned to talk to a

stranger on the train which none of them

had ever done

and they asked them beforehand how much

do you think you're going to like this

assignment we've just given you and the

people who were assigned to talk to

strangers said I'm not going to enjoy

this afterwards after they completed

their assignments the people who had

talked to strangers were much happier

than the people who had done their usual

staying on their phones or reading the

newspaper so it's an example of how

we're not so good at knowing what's

going to make us happy and particularly

when it comes to connecting with each

other that there's something about these

kind of small conversations that we can

have with strangers or even with someone

we barely know that turn out to be very

energizing more of the time than not but

we're always afraid we're afraid

someone's going to think we're strange

if we strike up a conversation or we're

gonna get stuck talking to someone who

who we don't like

but what we find is that that the

culture gives us these messages about

what will make us happy that turn out

not to be the truth

um a lot of the messages are about

consumerism you know we're told if you

buy this car you're going to be happy if

you you know if you serve this brand of

pasta you're going to have Blissful

family dinners you know and even though

we sort of know that this isn't the

truth the the advertisements really do

inculcate this sense that if we consume

the right things that will will be happy

and what we know from from our research

and many other studies is that's just

not so

um and that these these connections with

each other actually do make us happy

I mean for example you and I are talking

now and your questions and your interest

in my work is actually energizing for me

it's actually making me happier than

when I walked in the door today why

I think there's something about

wanting to be seen like you're actually

saying I want to know you I want to know

what's going on with you and and that

there's something about that that that

makes us feel like we belong that makes

us feel like we're connected and so what

we notice and and what we talk about

in the book is this idea that

uh that when when we actually are

curious about another person it's giving

them a gift it's giving them a way to be

seen a way to tell about themselves that

we all really yearn for at some level or

almost all of us do

and so it's something we can give to

each other every day

when you

compare and contrast the two lists list

a which says what we think we want and B

what your study on happiness has shown

that actually leads to

happiness however we Define it what are

the things just in order that we're most

wrong about

probably the three big ones we're most

wrong about fame fame and wealth yeah

and badges of achievement if I win this

prize right uh if I if I get to be CEO

that kind of thing

um and because the culture tells us all

day long that these will make us happy

and because they're measurable I think

one of the things you know if you think

about Fame I mean it's likes it's how

many downloads of a podcast it's how

many people read a book right

and it's measurable it's quantifiable

wealth of course is quantifiable and

achievement but what we know is that

those things don't do it now meaningful

work can make us happy can be fulfilling

that's different from getting the prize

getting the badge

foreign

by contrast you can't measure

relationships they're they're kind of

messy and you know complicated and and

and they're often full of ups and downs

and conflicts

um and so so you you can't quantify it

you can't hold on to it it's always

changing and so by contrast these these

relationships that actually turn out to

make us happy are not you can't get your

hands around them as easily as you can

you can get your hands around these

these these things you can kind of grab

for these shiny brass objects you can go

for

so why do we why do we you know outside

of the media influence why are we do we

have or sort of proclivity to strive for

things like Fame is there like an

evolutionary basis for wanting to be

famous or rich or

High status I guess

can I get into zen a little bit of

course you can please okay there's a

writer named David Loy Loy who writes

about this and and I think he's really

on to something that

in Zen philosophy that if you really

look for the self if you sit down on a

meditation cushion and you look and I

look for Bob like who's Bob I can't find

him I can't find a me anywhere I can

find a swirl of thoughts and

ever-changing Sensations coming from my

body and but I can't really find a fixed

thing that I call Bob and that if at

that what David Lloyd argues is that all

of us at some level know this that there

isn't really a fixed self that's going

to go on through time and it's going to

last after I die and that it's at some

level scary

to know that right and what David Lloyd

argues is that many of us are grabbing

for things like wealth and fame and

dominating the Earth and dominating each

other in this kind of wish to make

ourselves feel more real more permanent

more fixed like we really exist

and I think he's right I think it's

something think about all the ways you

know I think about all the ways I've

been preoccupied with you know am I

going to be remembered when I'm gone

well I'm probably not you know 50 years

from now nobody's gonna really remember

who I was

and if I really let that sink into my

bones that's scary and so I'd I'd rather

write a book with my name on it I'd

rather you know endow a building that'll

keep my name on it for a while until the

building falls down do something that

makes me last longer that makes the the

Bob self feel more real so that's the

that's the Deep Zen dive that I didn't

mean to take you on but but that's I

think for me the most helpful

explanation at why we all myself

included get preoccupied why these buy

these Badges of achievement if you will

with that comes a ton of suffering right

the desire to be permanent yeah and

significant and to compare ourselves

because with that comes comparison and

we know that when we compare ourselves

to others more frequently during the day

we are less happy even if it's a

positive comparison I.E we're doing a

downward comparison even it's a even if

it's a positive comparison

because there's always the threat of

falling short you're deciding to play a

game which is

yeah it's like a psychological decision

to play a game which sometimes you'll

win but sometimes you'll

you'll lose exactly it's better not to

play the game of comparison altogether

well what I find is when I put the

comparisons aside which I can sometimes

I'm so much more at peace

um you know when someone says to me do

you know that so and so got this many

views or so and so you know had this

many likes on social media I can feel a

little part of myself get anxious or

close off or or start making that that

comparison that that

almost physically hurts a little bit and

when I let that go if I can just sit and

and look at a tree for five minutes I

get a sense of equanimity that I can't

get when I'm doing these small

comparisons the brain engages in these

comparisons

um quite naturally you know it's trying

to make

snap decisions so it doesn't have to

expend too much energy about the value

of things and what things mean so it

kind of Compares One thing to another

I've read about the studies in

restaurants where they add an expensive

stake to the menu and now because

there's a really expensive one people

will assume that the low price stake is

not good and they'll avoid that one

they'll go for the middle one yeah their

decision changes based on the the frame

in which they see the options or the

choice and it's the same with humans

we're trying to figure out the value of

ourselves by snap comparisons when you

hear about these things that the brain

is doing these like comparisons you go

why does the brain hate me

exactly exactly the other thing is when

I look at the animal world I think you

know think about all the ways that we

get preoccupied with do I look right or

you know do am I dressed right or have I

achieved enough right and then I look at

birds and I think I bet they're not

showing up worrying about those things

and what a what a relief what a what a

wonderful thing not to be worried about

those things and I do find that this

practice of mine can get me there some

of the time not all the time but some of

the time I used to you know I used to

wonder on that point of like why why

does the brain hate me I know the brain

doesn't hate you like I used to wonder

with weight loss for example until I sat

here with dietary experts why when I

have some sugar

I then get sugar Cravings yeah and they

explain to me that your brain is

actually on your side it's trying to

help you to survive once upon a time

when we didn't have fridges and

supermarkets and ubereats and whatever

else

coming across some sugar was a would

Advance your chances of survival it

would give you energy Etc and even with

the comparison it's a tool that helps me

make quick decisions my brain doesn't

hate me but the world we live in was not

designed for my brain exactly I wasn't

supposed to be able to look at a billion

people on a glass screen and so the

suffering is really a byproduct of a

changing world not a not a brain that

hates you and I see that throughout your

work is the world has changed to make us

unhappy in several ways yes what do we

do about that we can't leave the world

no we can't leave the world and and the

world is always going to keep changing

and so for example if we sometimes we

can we can demonize screens and we can

demonize the digital Revolution that's

not going away you know and so really

it's about being as adaptable as we can

but I think for me the question is how

can we be as intentional as possible

that that our brains evolved as you're

saying they don't hate us but they

evolved in certain ways and so they need

correctives

similarly the digital world has evolved

in certain ways and so

the digital software

is designed digital media is designed to

grab our attention and hold it to

exploit that right to exploit that brain

so then how can we be intentional enough

to turn away from that software when we

need to right when we need to turn

toward each other it'll need to have

real time

contact with each other that's so

nourishing emotionally and

psychologically how can we keep from

going down the rabbit hole that social

media has evolved to keep us hooked on

not because social media is evil just

because

that's how they've developed in order

for people to make a living

it is quite exhausting I think sometimes

I think because you're right industry

and

um business and even the High Street if

you walk down the High Street you know

outside everything is designed to

exploit the brain you like the shops are

selling sugar and carbs and or you can

go to the gambling shop and that will

exploit your brain and you know it's

dopamine response to flashing lights and

pulling that lever on the

um

it's difficult it is difficult and and

that's where suffering comes in you know

one of the things I see as a

psychiatrist but we all see this is that

people often want to change their state

they just want to change how they feel

there's this great cartoon I like this

is there's this meditator sitting on a

cushion and there's a thought bubble

over his head and what he's thinking is

I really do want to be in the moment

just not this moment and if you think

about all the ways in which we want to

change our state by gambling the

excitement of gambling or the the sugar

high we get when I when I get some

delicious ice cream or you know that

it's a way of changing that kind of

sense of malaise that comes over us

moment to moment

and I think one of the things we can do

instead is simply be present for that

malaise and then watch it pass which it

does eventually right so basically by

and large we're trying to get rid of

some of the Less Pleasant experiences of

our momentary life but they'll pass all

by themselves if you just pay attention

does that require this thing called

discipline yeah it does if we come to

watching and not grabbing on for the

next thing to make my feeling go away

I was um I was reading through the

chapter in your book about time and

attention and death

um cheery right yeah it's one of the

subject matters that I'm really

compelled by and I I've actually been

writing a lot in my upcoming book about

the topic of death and the order in

which I wrote was

um I started by talking about time and

and death because I think they're sort

of intrinsically linked to understand

the importance of time you need to

understand that you are gonna die which

I don't think many humans really

understand and then I was going to

deliver some time management techniques

in my book because I thought right I've

I've set up the conversation that time

is important so now give the reader some

time management techniques I've

researched all the time management

techniques I looked at the ones that I

use and I realized there were thousands

of them now there's thousands of them

for the same reasons that there are

thousands of fad diets

because none of them work

unless you have this thing called

discipline yeah and this is what you

know as a Zen priest you know it's all

well and good knowing the techniques

about meditation but if you can't have

the restraint to not get on ubereats at

1am in the morning and order that KitKat

right because you don't have the

discipline it doesn't matter I can know

it but doing it is another thing right

my question is about discipline

how how does one

even if you're looking at your own life

where does one find that discipline

you know often it's it's not the Nancy

Reagan strategy of just saying no right

you know if you think about that that

discipline

can't just involve saying no it has to

involve having something to turn toward

and I think that's where we may be able

to help each other find things so you

know if you if you don't want to order

the KitKat on ubereats right what could

you do instead that that might help that

might feel okay

um and I think it's that you know if if

we think about Alcoholics Anonymous

the one of the reasons why it works is

it doesn't just say don't drink

it gives you a whole social network of

people to support you and it gives you

activities to do and people to be with

every hour of the day right and so what

it does is it gives you something to put

in place of that drink that you want to

reach for and even so it's really hard

and so I think what what we need to say

is let's put in place some things to

help us manage so that we don't reach

for the candy when we're trying to lose

weight right but when our body is just

saying I gotta have it and one of those

things which you write about and you've

seen I've seen in the study is as you

said earlier is connections and

relationships yeah how important can you

quantify to me the importance of having

a romantic partner in your life

as it relates to health outcomes well

unfortunately I can and because I I just

want to say that you do not need a

romantic partner to get these benefits

because some people have said to me well

if I don't have a romantic partner

should I just walk in from the bus now

and end it all right no no it's fine

it's fine not to have a romantic partner

but there is research that shows that

actually people who are married

uh men live 12 years longer on average

if they're married and women live seven

years longer on average if they're

married this is some studies in the

United States

um that said it's it's not the marriage

license it's about an intimate

connection and you can have an intimate

connection with somebody who's not a

romantic partner could be a good friend

could be a sibling could be a an adult

child uh so many things you know so many

ways to have this

what we think is that everybody needs at

least one person to whom they feel

securely

attached

um our original participants in our

research at one point we asked them

who could you call in the middle of the

night if you were sick or scared list

everybody and most people could list

several people that they could call but

some people couldn't list anyone and

some of those people who couldn't list

anyone had romantic partners

yeah so you can be lonely in a romantic

partnership right you can be isolated

uh in an intimate relationship

so all that is to say that it is really

the quality of a secure connection that

we're talking about that we think

everybody needs at least one of in the

world to get these kinds of benefits

what is the physiological or spiritual

or Zen reason why

um having a intimate relationship with

at least one individual is causing us to

live longer yeah

so there are a lot of theories about

this but the best theory for which

there's some good data has to do with

stress the idea that good relationships

actually help us manage stress and help

us manage negative emotion

so you know stress happens all day long

right and like if I if I leave here in

something upsetting happens my body will

literally change my blood pressure will

go up my heart rate will increase I

might start to sweat right that's normal

the body goes into something called

fight or flight mode we're supposed to

be able to do that because we want to

prepare to meet a challenge you know

evolutionarily it's a good thing but

then when the stressor is removed the

body's meant to return to equilibrium

you know so if I have something

upsetting happen and I go home and

complain to my wife I can literally feel

my body calm down you know if you have a

friend you can call and you can talk

about what was upsetting you can

literally feel that return to

equilibrium what we know happens is that

people who are lonely people who are

socially isolated don't have that and

what we have been able to demonstrate is

that they stay in a kind of fight or

flight mode so higher levels of stress

hormones circulating like cortisol

higher levels of inflammation

and and that's how

um we think we're pretty sure that

isolation loneliness or toxic

relationships

through stress can break down your

coronary arteries can break down your

joints can make it more likely that

you'll get type 2 diabetes so that's how

the same mechanism can affect lots of

different body systems

and stress is really intrinsically

linked to poor nutrition right

so if I'm stressed I'm more likely to

reach for the KitKat exactly exactly

you're more you're more likely to go to

the casino or to place that bet or buy

short-term decisions and not delay

gratification exactly

maybe explains why

men live less long as well because they

are less likely to

open up according to the data and be

vulnerable and

and therefore that stress is not

um reduced by the insulating effect of

having supportive relationships

that's right they are less likely to

open up in fact when they've done

studies of how couples argue with each

other they videotape them what they see

is that men are more likely to withdraw

during an argument and women are more

likely to pursue to say look I want to

talk about this and the man is likely to

kind of clam up and literally sink back

in his chair and and so we feel attacked

yeah exactly exactly exactly yeah yeah

yeah and so so it literally involves a

process of learning sometimes for many

men to to learn to to say it's okay and

one of the things we know is that men

often have an aversive physiologic

reaction during arguments that make them

want to withdraw

um so that so that the same kind of

fight-or-flight mode for men make them

want to may make them wanna

hang back and for women may make them

want to engage

and that that's a little bit trickier

the science is a little trickier in that

regard but there's some idea that that's

part of what's what goes on

for us gender wise I understand how men

might end up in that situation from

maybe watching movies or I don't know

stereotypes that are portrayed in media

of what a man is right but are we also

inheriting that from our parents oh yes

absolutely we get socialized all the

time

um in fact there's some research

on adolescent boys

and the research suggests that younger

boys

have close friends and they they

emotionally confide in each other and

then as those teenage boys get older

they stop doing that

and there's some idea that it's not

considered manly to do that so the boys

stop doing it the girls continue to do

it because they've been socialized that

it's okay that it's feminine it's

perfectly reasonable for a girl and a

woman to confide in other people whereas

manly men don't do that and that's

that's one of the stereotypes of the in

the ways that we're raised that

hopefully is subsiding

that there are more ways to feel like a

real boy a real man that include

emotional engagement with other people

what is the cost then on the other side

of the coin what is the cost of um of

being lonely I was reading some studies

I think maybe similar to the ones you

described about the

gradual decay of connection that's going

on in the world so we're getting

lonelier and lonelier as a as a species

yes

um have you seen that in your studies

over the years you've seen as you ask

these participants how many people

they've got to turn to in that moment of

Crisis are you seeing a decay in the

amount of people they think they can

call it to him in the morning

we haven't seen that decay but there are

many other studies that have and in fact

there's a sociologist named Robert

Putnam in at Harvard actually who wrote

a book in the 80s called bowling alone

in which he studied what he called our

investment in Social Capital like how

much do we join clubs go to churches and

mosques and synagogues how much do we

invite people over to our homes and what

he found was that starting in the 1950s

all of those indices dropped off we

stopped investing in other people and it

seemed to coincide in the U.S with the

introduction of Television into the

American home and then he went back in

the early 2000s and did the same survey

again

all of those parameters had dropped off

further so what he's shown is that we're

becoming much more isolated certainly in

the United States but also in the UK and

in the developed World particularly and

it seems to have a lot to do with social

Mobility it seems to have a lot to do

with digital media and forms of

entertainment many different causes but

the the net effect is that we are

becoming more isolated and to your

question there's an investigator

Julianne Holt lundstad who who studies

loneliness and what she has estimated

is that being lonely is as dangerous to

your health as smoking half a pack of

cigarettes a day or of being obese

and so what we know is that there are

these very real concrete effects of

social isolation and loneliness that

that damage us as we go through adult

life I've read that there was a I read a

new book that there was a link without

simers as well yes there is that the

brain declines sooner

and the onset of Alzheimer's is earlier

in people who are lonely

you're twice is more likely to develop I

believe that that was in the um

marmalade trust study said you're twice

as likely to develop Alzheimer's if

you're lonely

it could be and we think that has to do

with stimulation of brain Pathways so

the thing that that makes relationships

a little scary and risky because people

are unpredictable it's also the thing

that stimulates our brains so when I

came in here you and I had never met so

I was going to talk to you I didn't know

what you'd be like right I didn't know

what the questions would be like but

that's good for my brain because you've

got my brain running on a lot of

different circuits and that's

stimulating my brain circuits that's a

good thing you I think are preventing me

from becoming demented earlier so thank

you very much you're welcome yeah

are we are we good at understanding you

know

I think I think back to that kid me sat

in that room in Manchester just

absolutely focused on building a

business and becoming a CEO and all of

those things the monetary upside

I was particularly bad at if you'd asked

me what the value of a relationship was

I would have

I would have said I probably would have

just pointed to the costs I would have

said it's gonna have time and arguments

and yeah in the research that you've

done are people good at understanding

the value of a relationship

no they're not they're not

um partly because relationships are the

background I mean if you think about it

we've we've never known the world

without relationships most of us most of

us do not live in solitude and so we've

all there have always been people around

which means we tend to take

relationships for granted and it's only

when you pull back and you look at you

know thousands of lives that we saw

these powerful effects the differences

between people who had good

relationships and people who didn't most

of us are you know it's like that old

joke about the the two fish swimming

along and the older fish swims by and

says hey boys how's the water and one

fish turns to the other and says what's

water and you know we're in this swirl

of relationships all the time that we

take for granted and so it's it's

particularly difficult for us to

understand that

this is something that we need to pay

attention to nurture cultivate

throughout life what if I'm in a toxic

relationship what if my partner is an

[ __ ] is it do I stay because of these

physiological benefits insulation from

stress or whatever it might be

um or do I dump them and go out alone in

life

well as with so many things one size

does not fit all there's a huge amount

of discernment involved so if you think

about it one question for a toxic

relationship is how much is at stake how

much do I have invested so let's say

you're married and you have children

together then

the idea is to work really hard to see

is there a way to salvage this

relationship

if only for the children but also

because the partnership could have

benefits

and so what we what we would say is if

there's a lot invested then we work

harder to see is there any way we can

find ways to work out our differences

sometimes there isn't and those

relationships need to be ended but but I

want to point out that most

relationships of any consequence have

conflict and so the real issue is not

are there conflicts the real issue is

can we work out conflicts regularly in

ways that make us both feel okay about

ourselves and about each other if we

can't do that then those relationships

often need to be stepped away from when

you looked at all of the relationships

that are beneficial

um and are successful as a relationship

what are the factors that made those

relationships most successful if there

are any

one of the things people talk about a

lot is being able to be themselves to be

authentic meaning not to have to hide

important aspects of who I am in a

relationship and it's not that we're

bearing our souls all the time but but

do I have to pretend that I'm someone

I'm not that's exhausting and depleting

and so the idea is to be able to be

yourself in a relationship of any

consequence

um I think the other thing we find in

good relationships is that people allow

each other to change over time I mean

we're all constantly changing we're all

moving targets and so if we can allow

each other to change and maybe even

celebrate that change the relationship

is stable and is likely to last I mean I

think about you know my wife and I are

about to celebrate our 37th anniversary

we are so different than we were 37

years ago I mean I I I had never heard

of Zen 37 years ago and now it's a big

part of my life my wife had to figure

out what do I do with this guy now who

practices Zen my wife has has developed

in ways I never expected what we've had

to do is learn about each other as we

change and and and accept those changes

and hopefully support each other in

changing which I think mostly my wife

and I have been able to do but it's part

of its luck I mean it's not like we're

such wonderful people we've just been

lucky to be able to support each other

in those changes but part of it is

intentional and and so I think that the

best relationships involve being able to

support each other in exploring new

things taking risks

um one of the things that inhibits all

of that is we have these expectations on

our partner we have an expectation of

the role they'll play of who they'll be

Etc

how does that impact our chances of

being successful in relationships yes I

mean I don't know if you remember this

old Billy Joel song I love you just the

way you are in which the lyrics are

saying don't ever change don't ever I

just want you to be exactly the way you

are right now and that's completely

unrealistic

um and so we do we have these

expectations of

who our partner is going to be parents

have this of children I mean sometimes

sometimes I'll catch myself telling one

of my sons who's in his 30s are you sure

you don't want to wear a warmer coat

when you're going outside and he looks

at me and says Dad you know I mean he

lives on his own he's lived on his own

for years it's like come on but I have

to get out of this mode of being his

parent in this in this helicoptering way

right so we're always having to readjust

our expectations of each other in order

to make relationships work

if I was your one of your kids and I

said Dad give me one piece of

relationship advice for how you and Mum

have managed to stay together for those

37 odd years but just I just want one

piece of advice dad

catch each other being good instead of

catching each other at doing the things

that annoy you right right I'm really

good at noticing when my wife does

things that annoy me and I I'm not good

at remembering oh my gosh you know she

just made this great meal uh she just

made sure that I was on time to this

meeting she just reminded me to take my

medication you know it's like all these

things that oh my God if she weren't

here I would be a mess right and so what

I would say is

it's it's really practicing gratitude

gratitude practice is really just

flipping flipping our negatively biased

Minds on their heads and and essentially

uh finding what's good what's going

right with the partnership and when we

do that there's there's usually so much

to find that's that's not wrong that's

right about the relationship and if you

do that you you find that I find that

I'm happier in the relationship even

though there are plenty of times when

it's boring it's predictable it's

annoying as any long relationship is

there's so much to be grateful for

the the other thing you talk about a lot

in this book is about the use of our

time and how we spend our Time chapter

five kind of goes back to what we're

talking about a second ago about time

management and discipline and all these

things

um

one of the alarming things I got from

chapter five was just how much time we

waste unknowingly

and I think maybe this is something

that's quite pertinent your Zen practice

but I think you said that we spend half

of our time in waking moments thinking

about something other than the thing

we're currently doing yes yes

and and that people that do that are

more unhappy so people that spend more

time ruminating about

um

or with a Wandering mind as you called

it are the most unhappy yes there's

actually good research on this from a

different research group where they they

would actually ping people throughout

the day at random times and say are you

thinking about what's right in front of

you now are you thinking about what's

current and that's where they get this

uh data that says most people will

respond no I was thinking about

something else the the future of the

past whatever and and then they would

also ask at the same time how's your

mood right now how happy are you and

they found that the people who spent

more time thinking about what's right in

front of them

Were Far and Away happier so a Wandering

mind is a less happy mind

in that chapter you talk about

multitasking as well

we all think I mean I'm

you know this is one of the problems I

had when I was writing my book as I like

to play music yeah with that has lyrics

in it so it'll be I don't know like r b

music or something yeah and I want to

write at the same time and I eventually

come to learn that my brain is incapable

of doing two things so it's not actually

listening to the music

um I can't listen to music and write at

the same time in chapter five you talk

about this there's research that shows

our brain is not capable of doing one

more more than one thing at a time

that's right you're you're really

switching back and forth really quickly

and it's super inefficient it's

incredible it's an incredible waste of

energy because your brain takes a moment

to get back into gear in the thing

you've switched back to and then it's

and then it's switching off again to

something else and so what we this idea

of multitasking oh I can do so many

things at once is a Fool's errand

basically

Flow State kind of link to that yeah is

is it a thing it is a thing is it a good

thing yeah it is a good thing prove it

well I don't know if I can prove it but

uh well actually there's been some good

work by uh chicks at me high he's a

that's his that's his name and I can't

spell it it's this long name he's since

passed away but a very brilliant

psychologist who did research on Flow

States

you know so I'm a meditator and many

people say to me when they find that out

say oh I should meditate and I often say

no you shouldn't you should see if

meditation feels good to you and if it

does do it if it doesn't feel good find

another state a flow state if you will

find another Pastime that for you makes

the time just fly by so

my wife is not a meditator she has no

interest in it but she loves music and

she's a an avid pianist she can sit for

an hour and just be transported playing

the piano that's her Flow State for some

people it's skiing down a ski slope for

some people it's working in a garden

for some people it's being on a soccer

pitch it's you know

um so what I My Hope for people is that

they find a flow state or maybe more

than one and that they allow themselves

those experiences of flow from time to

time where they're just in so in the

activity that time passes by

effortlessly without noticing that's so

nice to hear I'm refreshing for people

who have struggled with meditation which

I imagine is most people lots of people

and you know even on this podcast when I

have guests on they often talk about the

um positive upside of doing meditative

practice there must be so many people

that listen and go I've tried it I can't

I can't it doesn't work for me but to

know that like your hobby that thing

that just as you said that makes the

time fly by is is an equally

effective potentially form of meditation

exactly making music or painting or

whatever it might be running really

nourishing I mean it and it gives us

energy it gives us a sense of peace and

Equanimity to be in that kind of state

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get on over the last couple of how long

maybe four months I've been changing my

diet shall I say many of you have really

been paying attention to this podcast

will know why I've sat here with some

incredible Health experts and one of the

things that's really come through for me

which has caused a big change in my life

is the need for us to have these

superfoods these green Foods these

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of weeks and it's a game changer on the

subject of work

um

what did you notice in the study about

the type of work that leads to the most

happiness I've really tried to distill I

think over the last couple of years what

are the like fundamentals of what we

need in work to be happy and obviously

because of this like real tectonic shift

in how we work in digital screens and

remote working things are changing and I

sometimes wonder if we're kind of

sleepwalking into a a world of work that

we haven't properly considered just

because we can

do something doesn't mean necessarily we

should yes again that that path of least

resistance you know that

um

so we do know some things about this

from

um some good research coming out of

business schools they do a lot of this

kind of research on on the conditions of

work but also the Gallup organization

they did a survey of 15 million workers

all over the world

all ages all cultures

all ranks in the in a workplace

and their main question was do you have

a best friend at work

only 30 percent of those 15 million

workers had said yes I have a best

friend what that meant was I have

someone who I talked to about my life

about my personal life you know it might

be my my child is struggling with math

or it could be anything you know but

just to talk about what's going on in

your life

those 30 percent then they they did all

kinds of Assessments of those people and

talked to their bosses

they were better workers they earned

more money they were better with

customers they were less likely to leave

their jobs for a better offer because

they had people they wanted to show up

for every day

and so what many uh leaders in the

workplace think of as a distraction

socializing at work turns out to be a

hugely powerful factor for increasing

productivity and increasing wellness and

happiness at work those 70 of people who

said no I don't have a friend at work

11 out of 12 of those people said I'm

pretty much disengaged from my job

11 out of 12. 11 out of 12.

so maybe all of them nearly all of them

whereas the 30 were much more engaged in

their jobs so if you have friends you're

also more engaged in your work

there's something about those

connections that is energizing and

livening and it spills over into the

work itself

it's so interesting I sat with our head

of culture at um my marketing company

flight story and we were talking about

the kpis that a head of culture and

people should be tracking in the modern

era um and one of the kpis which I had

in my last company and we've introduced

into flight story is the amount of

communities that exist outside of the

office

so how many football team you know do we

have a women's football team do we have

a reading club yes do we have a an are

they active communities because it's

really clear to me that like in terms of

retention satisfaction engagement in the

work if people are bound by this

community in various different ways

everything is going to be better exactly

and you people don't necessarily think

about that in the modern world of work

that you should be as an employer doing

everything you can to create a

got a new flight story football club or

a Diary of a CEO a reading club or

running club it will have huge positive

impact for of course health and all of

those things physical health and all

those things but psychological Health

and Social Fitness as you call it in the

book will go up

um

as employees we don't think that's our

business right right we don't think it's

our business and it turns out to be so

much our business the other thing is we

most of us spend more waking hours at

work than we spend doing anything else

in our lives for most of our adult life

I mean so if you're not going to

get the benefits of good connections

with other people at work you are

missing a huge part of your life

experience

but it didn't used to need to be our

business so much either if you know what

I mean like we used to have

other things within Society like

even pubs have started shutting down

because the economics don't work out in

churches and these sort of social

institutions outside of the office and

then you you look at what's going on

with this kind of remote working

situation post pandemic where

the the in social institution of the

office or working around people is also

in Decline what's your view then on

remote working and what would your

message be to a CEO or leader or

employer

that's has this maybe potential social

pressure coming from wherever to say

everyone should be able to work from

home at all times that's a really good

thing

versus the research you've done that

shows the importance of

in real life human connection yeah yeah

well we don't know enough yet about the

difference between remote work and

in-person work we don't know for example

what gets filtered out on Zoom you know

what what aspects of emotional

communication get filtered out we don't

know

um and so we're going to learn more in

the next few years because people are

studying this but then the question is

what do we do and and what do we know I

think we well what we know right and

what do we know well we we know that

some things are filtered out and if you

think about it when when you were locked

down and you were just on screens with

people and then you saw people again in

person you I felt this upsurge of like

whoa this is so great it's so good to

see you in real life right and so we

know that there's some there's some

truncation of the interpersonal

experience we just don't know all the

elements of it

um by contrast so I'm a psychiatrist and

I do Psychotherapy that's my specialty

so every day I see people in talk

therapy if you had told me I could do

talk therapy remotely that was

meaningful I would have said you were

crazy Well turns out you can and most of

my colleagues are doing it so there are

aspects of remote work of remote

connection that are much better than we

thought we're having to learn about this

but to your question of what advice

would I give to CEOs first I would say

that the culture of of fostering social

connection needs to start with the CEO

it needs to start with leadership it

can't just be something you delegate to

your human resources department

um

but then I would say also be intentional

structure it and that can be structured

even on Zoom so

the Surgeon General in the United States

that's the kind of head doctor he's like

the the figurehead of Medicine of Public

Health Vivek Murthy is his name his

platform has been emotional well-being

and decreasing loneliness particularly

in the workplace so what Vivek does is

he has a staff meeting every week where

the first five or ten minutes are

devoted to one staff member

talking about something in their

personal life that they'd like everybody

else on the staff to know

and people love this meeting it's their

favorite and it's their favorite part of

the meeting right

they again to they get to know about

each other I didn't realize you were

into fencing or you were you were into

magic tricks or you know whatever it was

you know people just talk about their

lives

and so I think what we can do even with

remote work is structure ways of knowing

each other better the ways that we used

to be able to take for granted you know

like you come to a meeting in an office

and you spend a moment or two chatting

with the person you happen to sit next

to and you might find out something

about their life how do you do that

remotely how do you do that on zoom and

that's what I think we have to figure

out in some way if we're going to have

any hope of having meaningful

Connections in the workplace one of the

things that has been

um really really positive about the

shift we've seen in the worlds of work

over the last two years it feels like

people have more control on autonomy and

controlling autonomy is quite clearly a

predictor of Happiness right yes huge

predictor in fact in the UK they did the

first study of this Michael Marmot you

know who did this amazing study the

white hole studies where he found found

that the people who had more control and

more autonomy stayed healthier they were

under less stress and they stayed

healthier

that always really really stood out to

me that this physiological Health

implications you're less likely to get

things like heart disease if you feel

like you have a greater control over

your life and work absolutely and people

that are working in jobs that where they

don't feel like they have autonomy have

physiological

um consequences they're more likely to

get disease

feels very very Stark well and it it

goes back I think to the stress

hypothesis that there's something about

having no autonomy being confined and

constantly frustrated that keeps I

suspect keeps the body revved up in a

kind of chronic stress mode

that then breaks it down in your work as

a psychiatrist

what is the like reoccurring thing that

us as humans just seem to struggle with

on an ongoing basis you talked about at

the start it was

um

things to do with like you know

permanence or our identity whatever else

are there other things I remember

sitting here with Marissa peer

um and she talked to me about how we

like fundamentally live with the

patients she sees suffer with a feeling

like they're not enough yeah that seems

to be a consistent theme for her what

are the consistent themes in your in

your practice as a psychiatrist well I

would say that sense of not being enough

is is a very important very common one

um and and it it

speaks to a sort of larger problem of

self-criticism that many of us are quite

critical of ourselves for just any

number of things all of us have a

different set of things we're critical

about but a lot of what I work with with

people is first showing them the

self-criticism because often it's like

the air they breathe so I come into your

practice

and

what is a typical symptom of someone

that might come and see you and why

would they have come to see you

they might come with depression okay

they might come with anxiety they might

come with a sense that uh life is

meaningless and they're not getting any

joy in life they might have come because

a spouse has died or a child has died

and they're not able to cope they are

just finding life life isn't doesn't

seem worth living anymore and what's

your process from there once they say

their symptom I'm depressed let's say we

talk yeah um so I'm I am a psychiatrist

but I tend not to reach for my

prescription pad right away I do use

medication when we need it but

first we talk and often if I can help

somebody just to tell me what's wrong

um a lot of the symptoms will ease

um and yeah I mean you can if somebody

is is a is if it's life and death I will

often use medication right away to make

sure somebody stays safe

but many times people will come and

after two or three meetings they will

feel less depressed because they've been

able to unburden themselves and to talk

about

um something they feel is so horrible or

so shameful and

I can help them understand it and often

normalize it a lot of what I do and a

lot of what my research does is

normalize things and say yeah this is

part of Being Human

um and for many people you know a lot of

times one of my teachers used a phrase

that I find so helpful he said we're

always comparing our insides to other

people's outsides

you know I'm always comparing the me

that some mornings wakes up feeling kind

of lost and

you know like I don't know what I'm

doing with my life or down with the the

curated lives that we see on social

media or the game faces that we put on

for each other I mean you know we're you

and I are trying to look okay for each

other you know I'm not we're not telling

each other about our miseries right now

because we have a job to do we're doing

this interview and that's fine that's

good we need to do that but it can leave

each of us with the impression that

other people are always fine they've got

it figured out and I don't

so a lot of my work as a psychiatrist is

to help people see oh you know no this

is actually part of being human that you

know yes when you lose a loved one this

is a trauma and that yes many people

feel like they don't want to get out of

bed in the morning many people feel like

they can't go to work and

let's talk about that let's talk about

your loved one let's talk about what the

loss is like and when you really take

people through that and take through

people through what's hurting so much A

lot of times the pain will ease

tremendously

sometimes we use medication to help and

that that's good but many times it's not

needed

what are the factors of somebody that

can be helped from from all you've seen

in your work what are what are the

things you go well if they exhibit this

this and this then I think we can work

with them

and I'm saying this it's worth saying

because I want to build the bridge we

all have people in our lives that we

want to help you're right someone that's

struggling with something I'm not saying

it's our job to help them or to be a

fixer assignments and it taught me not

to be

um

but it I do find it useful to know

um that's kind of the question I'm

trying to answer here is like that

person we all have in our lives you know

maybe they're struggling with something

maybe it's a recurring issue

which ones of those can be helped what

are the cool factors

the ones who can be helped are the ones

who are willing to look inward so some

people

will never go for help right they'll

never want to be curious about

themselves often because it's scary at

the deepest level

who who are saying this is my story and

I'm sticking to it this is my world view

and I am not going to inquire about my

own role in my difficulties right

the people who can be helped are the

people who sooner or later get to a

point where they say

okay maybe I'm making some contribution

to my troubles and if so what is that

responsibility there is some

responsibility some responsibility for

some people it's humiliating it's

impossible to even imagine that I am the

architect of some of my own misery

actually many times a couple will come

for couples therapy and if one person

says the only thing you have to do is

fix the other person you know that it's

not going to work because the any couple

is has learned a set of dance steps

they've developed and well you have to

help the couple to do is look at their

dance steps and then modify them and

it's always two ways it's always both

people contributing to difficulties in

the couple just as both people

contribute to what goes right it's the

person who says no way am I any part of

the problem here that's the person who

can't really be helped by these means is

the reason why sometimes we don't want

to take responsibility because

confronting

what the

inward perspective might show us as you

said is really uncomfortable for a

self-esteem which is already on the

floor yes yes that's it I mean so I'm

playing defense I'm playing defense and

the defense has to be so complete so

think about the people who are so

self-aggrandizing and have to tell you

with every sentence how wonderful they

are who can never apologize who can

never admit doing anything wrong those

are often the people who feel the most

vulnerable and who put up this this

rigid defense because to entertain that

they're fallible that they can make a

mistake that they can do something wrong

is is is

threatens a total collapse of the self

and so those at many times are the

people who just can't can't at all

entertain that question of what could I

be doing that I might be able to change

to make things better

do you have a framework for how I've

heard you talk about how precious time

is in your book and about attention do

you have some kind of framework that you

use to decide how to invest your time

like why to come why did you come here

today versus being somewhere else you

know you live in Boston right yes so

you've flown over to the the UK to

Europe you've been doing some you know

appointments in Europe

how are you deciding to deploy your time

is there a framework

there's definitely a framework

um

for me it goes back to that vow of

service so this study

I've been going for 85 years we've

published hundreds of scientific papers

but we published them in academic

journals very technical no one reads

those journals literally almost no one

and so what we found was that people

were hungry for this kind of information

I mean the reason why my TED Talk went

viral was because I was speaking about

things that we know from science that we

haven't told anybody in the wider world

so my mission I said look I don't have

that many years left in my career

my mission now is going to be to bring

this science that we've worked so hard

to develop and bring it to people in

ways that they can use to bring it in

understandable form rather than highly

technical geeky form which is what most

of my scientific papers are why

not do something else I

because relieving suffering is one of

the most meaningful things I can do with

my life and given that I'm not going to

be remembered 50 years from now

uh easing some suffering right now is

the best thing I can think of to do

what's it doing for you

it makes me feel like my life has some

purpose

um that and being with my family you

know my my wife and my kids and my

friends

those are because the the question that

Zen keeps asking and making me ask is

well what's being human about

I mean it's so unlikely to to be born

first of all right and then to live a

life and so what why am I doing this and

so that's that's the answer I have given

myself it's not by any means the right

answer God knows it's not the only

answer it's just my answer and it's my

answer for now

is is life

is there a point to life in your view

the point is what we make

of it there there is you know this is

the evolving of the universe the

universe is constantly changing it's

morphing and changing our species is

gonna morph and change probably be

extinct right every species eventually

becomes extinct so do we matter then if

we're going to be extinct

I don't know we matter for the moment

and we matter to each other I mean

that's another reason why I've spent so

much of my adult life prioritizing

relationships and studying relationships

because I think what do what can we do

well we can matter to each other

what have you gotten wrong and what do

you calling I've gotten so much wrong

where do I start but okay okay top of

the list top of the list is I've worried

too much about what other people thought

so one of the things I've done is I've

for example I was in a job that was very

prestigious when I was young I was

director of a training program at a

prestigious program for for

psychiatrists

and I hated it I realized I and I was on

a track to to be the chair of a

Psychiatry department at a fancy

academic institution and I realized I

just hated the work I just hated being

an administrator

to me it was like washing dishes the

same problems came up over and over

again and I would sit in these meetings

with people who were obviously very

engaged and I'm glad they were engaged

but I just didn't care about it and I

finally had to say to myself first and

then to everybody else

I don't want to do this this is not my

path and it took me longer than I wish

it had but I'm glad I did it and I had

to learn that lesson in order to you

know that was one of those badges of

achievement right and so I've so for me

what I've gotten wrong

is is thinking that the badges of

achievement were going to be satisfying

and realizing that they're not I mean

for me a conversation like this is

actually satisfying I'd rather do this

um and I don't even care how many people

listen to your podcast although I'm I'm

sure it's a lot of people I understand

it is right but but I don't care what I

really care about is having this

conversation with you that that feels

like a really good use of my time I if I

make you um if I made you prime minister

or president of the world no please no

no we need you okay Robert

um and I told you to

redesign Society in a way that would

lead us all to having greater

levels of fulfillment and happiness what

are some of the this the first things

you would do in terms of the design of

the way Society operates at the moment

what would you ban what would you

introduce and enforce

what I would introduce is massive

support for children and the people who

take care of children

because it's the best long-term

investment that actually they've done

some studies of this there's a James

Heckman is a an economist at the

University of Chicago who who published

a paper in science where he

analyzed hundreds of studies of when we

invest in in an age group where do we

get the biggest bang for the buck right