You've been studying happiness for 36

years.

>> Is there a commonality between all of

the most effective happiness

interventions that you found?

>> Yes. Well, thank you for aging me, but

yes, 36 years. So, actually, it was

1998, my lab pioneered happiness

interventions. So, 98, long time ago, 28

years ago, Bill Clinton was in the White

House. Um, and so I've been doing

research on these interventions, testing

whether practices like uh expressing

gratitude or doing acts of kindness or

being social makes people happier. So

interventions are like clinical trials,

but instead of testing a vaccine, we're

testing like a happiness strategy. And

then one day it finally hit me that what

all these interventions had in common is

the ones that worked, the reason they

worked is because they made us feel more

connected to and loved by others. Right?

So when I write a gratitude letter to my

mom, it makes me feel more loved by her,

right? When I do an act of kindness for

a colleague or a friend, makes me feel

closer to him. So almost all happiness

practices, maybe not all, like maybe if

you run on the beach or meditate, it's

not about connection, but almost all of

them are about feeling connected and

feeling loved.

>> Why?

>> We I think the human species wouldn't

have survived if we did not feel

connected and loved. And it's a a

extremely strong signal. And so what I

concluded is the key to happiness is

feeling connected, which sounds like a

cliche, right? But

>> and when you think about like in our

ancestral past, if we did not feel

connected and loved, we wouldn't

survive. We wouldn't find mates, like we

wouldn't pass on our genes. So it's it's

incredibly important. It's one of the

most important tasks of human beings is

is to sort of maintain connection.

>> Okay. So to take a bit of an

evolutionary lens,

>> uh if you are not belonging to the

tribe, mattering to the tribe,

understood by the tribe, uh and a part

of that, a human on its own 20,000 years

ago isn't going to last very long.

Therefore, it's important for you to get

back into connection. It doesn't seem to

me though that unhappiness necessarily

drives people back to connection and

love. It can often make people behave in

ways, have habits, and a demeanor that

actually makes them kind of hard to

love.

>> Right? Right. So, it's not really

unhappiness that drives them back to

connection. It's not feeling loved

>> or feeling lonely, which actually is

very very similar to feeling unloved. I

think actually a lonely moment and a

moment where you don't feel loved are

are almost identical. And and there

again, they're a signal to to us humans

that something's a rise, something's a

miss. I need to, you know, regain

reconnect that connection. I actually

was feeling a little lonely a few weeks

ago and I actually I don't usually feel

lonely. I have lots of friends and

family who love me and I left a message

for a friend and she just actually just

left me a message back yesterday and she

said, "Oh, I feel so so sorry for you.

Like so feel so bad. I wish I were

there." And she's like, "Sonia, feeling

lonely is a signal that you know you

need to kind of put more effort and

energy into reconnecting." So, um, yeah,

>> lots of people spend their entire lives

trying to be lovable.

Is that the wrong goal entirely?

>> Yes. Well, there's a part of it that's

that's not a a bad thing, which is if

you want to be a better person, right?

We working on yourself. Wonderful.

Right. But I think the I think when you

don't feel loved to conclude that, oh, I

don't feel loved. I need to make myself

more lovable, like I need to sort of

somehow broadcast how wonderful I am or

maybe I need to get richer or more

famous or more beautiful so people would

love me more. That's the part that's a

myth and it does not actually get you to

feel more loved. Is it a supply of love

problem or an acceptance of love

problem?

>> I think it's an or not necessarily

acceptance but it's not a supply of love

problem. So many of us are loved but we

still don't feel loved. So why is that

maybe somehow we don't trust it? We

don't see it. Um you know it's not

somehow getting in. You know I think of

it as like a cup of love. You know this

cup of love and you're pouring love.

you're showing love to me, but maybe it

has a leak in the bottom and the love is

sort of leaking out. Or maybe it has a

lid, it doesn't have much of a place to

get in. That's one way that that

happens. Um

>> um but okay, so the idea is that when we

think when we think when we're not

loved, we think I need to be make myself

more lovable and so I sort of show you

how wonderful I am. And what does that

accomplish? It might lead you to admire

me, right? I might impress you.

>> And that happens all the time. Like here

I am sitting here talking to you Chris

and I want you to think that I'm smart

and interesting and funny and kind and I

might succeed in impressing you and I

might succeed at you admiring me but

it's not going to forge a connection.

>> So that's not the answer to to real

connection.

>> What's the difference?

>> So I think admiration is like it's like

an influencer who has a lot of followers

and they might be admired but the

followers don't really know them.

and my co-author of the of my book, How

to Feel Loved, Harry Reese and I believe

that really the key to feeling loved is

being known.

Because if you don't really know me, if

if I'm just broadcasting my my positive

qualities, hiding my weaknesses, you

don't really know who I am on the

inside, what really matters to me, and

if you don't really know me, I can't

truly ever feel loved because I'll

always wonder if he knew me, maybe he

wouldn't love me. Mhm.

>> So

>> that fear of being seen.

>> Yeah.

>> What just definitionally what does it

mean to feel loved?

>> Feeling love means that I believe I make

a difference in your life and that I

really matter in your life. It's really

comes down to that. I mean love of

course is about affection and care and

intertwined goals, but I think it really

comes down to like I matter to you and

you matter to me. And it's much broader

by the way than of course romantic love.

And while we talk about feeling loved,

we we're talking about feeling loved at

work, by your neighbors, by your family,

by your friends. It's not just about

your partner.

>> M 40% of people say they don't feel as

loved as they want to be by their

partner. And nearly twothirds of young

men feel that nobody truly knows them.

>> Isn't that terrible? Yeah, it's it's

really a it's sad. It's a problem. I

actually think those numbers are

probably understatements. I bet people,

>> you know, are feel embarrassed about any

Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, we did a

survey expressly for the book, right?

Found that was it 70% said they don't

feel as loved as they want to be at at

least one significant relationship in

their life. So it's 70%. Um, and why is

that? I think many of them have love,

they have connection, they have friends,

and somehow, yeah, they're not they're

not feel it's not getting it. It's not

getting internalized.

>> What are the big ways structurally,

tactically, literally, what are the big

ways that people don't accept love?

Well, I was talking about the cup of

love. I think if you're anxiously

attached or avoidantly attached, I think

that's a huge barrier somehow. Again, if

you're anxious, it's like you're

watching for signs of rejection, signs

that the person doesn't love you. If

you're avoidant, maybe you're not even

noticing those signs of love. Um, I

mean, it could even be, it's funny, we

the idea of the love languages. We

actually debunk the idea of the love

languages in the book. We have a whole

section on it. We didn't do it. Someone

else did it. Um, but there's there's a

truth to it. I mean, it's a good

huristic that if somehow like I actually

was dating someone who kept sending me

gifts like in the mail with like little

handwritten notes, it's actually really

cute and yet didn't do the things that I

actually really wanted him to do, which

is really like saying something to me or

you know, my love quote love languages

are are words of affirmation and

physical touch.

>> Well, hang on a second. Have you

debunked it or are you like a subject to

it? What we've debunked is that there's

not just five languages, there's there's

many. And that it what we've debunked is

not we uh other people have debunked the

idea that matching in your love language

uh predicts like how good or how strong

or how stable your relationship is. It

does not predict it. It turns out

everyone cares about two love languages,

words of affirmation and quality of

time. It also turns out that the more

love languages your partner shows love

to you, the better. So it's not about

the matching. That's the matching idea

that really we've debunked, but I think

it's a great huristic. So, I like to

talk about it.

>> So, I'll bring it in. So, it is funny

like I'm like bringing it in and yet

I've debunked it a little. Uh,

>> pick a direct.

>> I know. Exactly. But, um, but yeah.

Anyway, the this example I was dating

someone who was sending me gifts and

that was his love language. Um, and I

just wasn't reading it. Like, I wasn't

seeing that. Like, I wasn't seeing that

that's an expression of love. So, that

does happen sometimes when the you're

just not Yeah. You're not taking it in

whatever the person is doing. Their love

language is different from yours.

>> Okay.

>> What else? What are some of the other

ways that people are rejecting love, not

accepting it?

>> Yeah. If you don't love yourself very

much,

uh it's hard to see signs of other

people's love as genuine. Now,

everything everything we talk about is

really much more nuanced than like a

simple explanation. So, for example, a

lot of people think if you don't love

yourself, you can't really love other

people. I think that's a that's a myth.

And I think Esther Prell actually was a

was was someone I I heard talking about

that. She said, "No, you learn to love

yourself also in the context of

relationships. It's a birectional kind

of thing." Um, having said that, if you

really don't love yourself, if you love

self-esteem, you're not going to believe

other people's expressions of love,

you're not going to be aware of them.

You're not going to see as genuine.

Furthermore, if you don't love yourself,

you literally are going to be quote less

lovable, right? People, it leaks out,

right? that your your self-image is is

poor and you're not going to be as

likely to receive love. So, um so I

think that's another barrier.

>> Yeah.

>> What have you learned about building

self-esteem and self- loveve? Because it

sounds here like, hey, we're on the

receive, but in the context of

self-esteem and self- loveve, we are

both the recipient and the giver.

>> Yeah. Uh I would say nothing. Um that is

the one thing I don't know. I'm an

interventionist. I'm an experimental

social psychologist. I don't know of any

good interventions to increase people's

self-esteem.

>> No way.

>> Well, interventions in the lab, you

know, that have been actually like

evidence-based. I mean, of course, I can

>> Well, we can do anything off vibes,

right? I can come up with something that

sounds good. That's the reason we need

you. We need you to test whether or not

my vibe coding of a an intervention is

actually good or not.

>> But remember, evidence of or absence of

evidence is not evidence of absence,

right? So, just because there aren't

interventions doesn't mean that they

wouldn't work. I mean I could I could

speculate you know like based on years

of experience and you know expertise

that you know like for example just um

pursuing goals passions that that are

important to you know and having

successes in in those things and

practicing your social skills like

that's going to build your self-esteem.

I just don't know any

>> maybe they're out there but I don't know

any successful interventions that have

that have actually boosted people's

self-esteem.

>> That's interesting. I wonder whether and

this is completely in fact I'm going to

take this off and I'm going to put this

one on for the time being.

>> Love it.

>> Um this is the bro scientist hat.

>> Love it.

>> Yeah.

>> I wonder

if part of self-esteem is kind of like

an aggregate a lagging measure aggregate

for how your local ecosystem

socially and emotionally seems to be

feeding back to you in a positive way.

that self-esteem can be built up on your

own, but you need to be very deluded if

you were able to hold self-esteem when

the world was giving you no evidence

that you should hold on to it, right?

Because that would be incredibly

maladaptive. You you are as a social

creature, you're actively ignoring

signals that you should pay attention to

if everybody else in the tribe is going,

"Sonia, you you can't behave like that.

You can't keep behaving like that. We're

not giving you positive reinforcement.

We're not giving you love. We're not

giving you belonging. you're not

mattering, we're not listening, we don't

care because you're being an [ __ ]

You're being an [ __ ] and that's

maladaptive to the group as as as a

whole. Presumably, the opposite of that

would be this is good. Keep going more

of that. This is helping us. You are a

good person. You are contributing. We

care about you. And over time, that

would help to build up. People can have

self-esteem that is self-generated,

but again, you need to have nerbs of

steel or basically no no eyes and ears

if you're going to ignore the the

feedback from everybody else scientist.

>> No, no, that is actually and I'm not

just flattering you that it's actually a

brilliant idea and you've just

reproduced some Can you change hats?

you've just independently developed some

really solid theories in psychology

about about how self-esteem is kind of a

measure like a like a metric a meter of

what's happening exactly like a

sociometer I think is what someone calls

it one of my colleagues calls it abs

we're social animals right we we don't

live in isolation we don't we don't man

does not live on an island right um

>> um and so that also means so if I were

to build a a self-esteem intervention

right now I would They go out and this

is actually very similar to my happiest

interventions. Go out and help other

people, right? Contribute to community.

Well, actually the three buckets of that

that computer the three buckets that

contribute to happiness are um uh

anything to do with connection. So go

and connect with other people, right? Uh

spend time with others. Listen, you

know, we'll get back we'll get to that

later. Two, um contribution to society,

to community, right? Helping others.

When you help others, you're going to

get positive feedback from the world.

And then the third is personal growth,

right? So work on yourself, but it also

can be just like learning to garden,

learning a new language, going to

travel, um having experiences that you

can talk about to other people that

gives you um this gives you esteem,

right? If you sit home in in your garage

all day, right? You're not going to

build that very easily.

>> Is the person that you're dating the

most important relationship for

providing this sense of love?

>> Well, interesting. In in western

society,

most people have romantic relationships

and actually a far majority end up

getting married at some point. I think

something like 85% by age 56. Um, I

would say for a lot of a lot of people

would report that that is their most

important relationship. I personally

think that friends are what makes life

worth living. Um, that's more of my kind

of personal theory that you get more of

it from friends, but it's also a very

genderbased theory. So it turns out that

men

>> derive more happiness from romantic

relationships than women. You probably

know this.

>> Yeah. That's why men suffer more through

divorce because so much of their social

belonging was tied up in the other

person whereas women had distributed it.

>> They put all their eggs in one basket.

Whereas women have you know very close

uh friendships uh social total support

networks.

>> Um but again I think friends are what

makes life worth living and um yeah so

really maintain those friendships. Did

you read uh friends by Robin Dunbar?

>> No, but I know about it. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Interesting idea. He he talks about um

you know the concentric circles of of

friendship and I think he talks about

you have room in your lifeish for about

five five very close friends but that a

partner takes up two of those slots. I

thought that was really interesting to

think about you know your your um

distributing this around. But what's the

the the most common answer to the

question how many close friends do you

have to call on an emergency is zero.

It's not the the median, but it's the

most common answer. More people have no

friends to call on in an emergency than

any other number. And uh I wonder

whether

people who aren't in a relationship

don't realize, hey, you need two

additional close friends to compensate

for your singleness. And that might help

to fill in some of the gaps. Now, yeah,

there's

there is a category of love and intimacy

obviously that can't be replicated by

friendships that is available in an

intimate partnership, right? Obviously,

but

more isolation means that maybe people

are placing even more pressure on

romantic relationships to fulfill all of

these different needs. And when they're

not in a romantic relationship, they're

not supplementing that with more

friends.

>> I mean, I love that idea, the two two

for one. Um but uh our but we also have

the the false belief that our partner

needs to fulfill all of our needs. So

like Eli Finkele's book, The All or

Nothing Marriage, right? That and so we

know this to be true and yet we still

think that right that they Yeah. So one

person needs to fulfill you know sexual,

spiritual, emotional, intellectual needs

and that almost never happens. And so

which is why uh delegating those to to

friends and family is great idea.

>> Are there more important words to hear

than I love you?

Yes. So on Valentine's Day, right,

almost all the cards say, "I love you."

Right? Almost all of them. I would say

99%. And so we had the idea that they

should say I maybe it's more important

or as important to say I feel loved by

you. You make me feel loved,

>> which is really more about what they're

doing, the gift that they're giving you.

Because again, like that's what m you

could be loved. If you're if you are

loved, but you don't feel loved, it's

like almost doesn't matter. Like it's

like you could be beautiful but you

don't feel beautiful. If you could be

smart and you don't feel smart, then you

know that's a problem.

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and modern wisdom at checkout. Is there

a skill to accepting love, do you think?

Is that something that can be developed

over time? You know, I to use a more

flippant example, everyone's got that

friend that when you pay them a genuine

compliment, they dismiss it. This is

kind of like the British approach to

receiving a compliment. Oh, no. You you

must be not you. You um you look really

good today. Well, if you had nothing

else to do with your life other than get

ready for a party, you too would look

great. And you go, hey, dude,

I've just worked really hard to try and

give you something. That's an

opportunity for you to feel good and for

me to feel good for making you feel

good. And now neither of us feel good.

So congratulations. But yeah, it makes

me think about that but at a much deeper

level, right? The skill of accepting

love,

>> right? And absolutely true. And actually

your example is great because I've

noticed that as my friends and I get

older, we are better at receiving

compliments or just receiving receiving

generosity.

>> It's like it just a practice we practice

and practice and practice. Um and I see

that like there's more of a focus on

kind of self-development. um you know at

least in certain circles and people are

really working on themselves and uh yeah

I see that everywhere. So yeah I I think

almost everything can get better with

practice even when it feels really

unnatural at first.

>> Why is having a sharing mindset so

important?

>> We were talking about how the key to

feeling loved is to be known. Right? So

if you don't know me I'll never really

feel loved by you cuz right because I

always wonder would he love me if he

knew me? How do I get to how do you get

to know me? I need to share more of

myself. It doesn't have to be, you know,

trauma sharing or oversharing. It has to

be done at the right pace. And also, I

need to really have some emotional

intelligence like read the room. So, I

might like, so I need to share more of

myself, right? Not just the highlight

reel, but more of myself. But again, not

like to spill all my, you know,

weaknesses. So, but but I would want to

test the room, right? So when you ask me

how are you know most of the time I say

fine uh maybe I might start with oh I

had you know I was sort of struggling

today with something you know I had a

rough morning and then I look at your

reaction and see like are you really

interested to hear about my rough

morning and that's kind of the toe in

the water and then you can share more

and more. So, I just want to like make

sure that people understand that it's

not just like oversharing I'm talking

about,

>> but it's showing

>> like who are you?

>> Who do you believe to be on the inside?

Like showing more of that,

>> you know, what matters to me? It doesn't

have to be something negative. It could

just be like my opinion about that movie

that maybe everyone likes but I don't

like it.

>> Um, you know, showing something genuine

about me. Um, you know, that yeah, that

shows you who I am. It's an interesting

birectional relationship here too,

right? I think about the UK as well. Um,

there is a good culture of mocking in

the UK, especially as you're a kid

growing up. There's a a piss taking

banter back and forth. One of the

interesting things there is if you try

to put a slightly

orthogonal

opinion forward, I'm going to say

something that's a little bit different

to what most people expect. Typically,

that's not met with, "Oh, that's really

interesting. That's that's I've never

thought about stuff like that before.

That's really cool. I'm really glad that

you brought that up. It's why would you

say that? That's so strange." And I

think if you think about that in the

context of a relationship, the fact that

this is going back and forth between two

people means that the less it is

encouraged and received. Wow. that thing

that you said that was evidently

surprising to me, that might have taken

a little bit of effort for you to say

that wasn't received and encouraged in

the way that might make you want to

continue to do it more. That means that

you do it less and are less encouraged

to do it, which means that I know you

less, which means I don't get the

opportunity to do it.

>> It's a vicious cycle. And actually,

someone was just telling me like they

had one time they were vulnerable and

they really got punished for it. They

got judged for it. It was used against

them. It was one out of a hundred times

and yet they now don't want to reveal

anything ever about themselves. Um, and

we kind of overgeneralize from that.

>> It's a formative experience. Like I mean

how many times I see this online a lot

and I'm aware people use the most

extreme examples when they talk on the

internet but how many times do you see

some story online about a person who

really tried to open up to a partner to

a to a parent to a close friend to a a

confidant and it was such a painful

experience for them that like that is

their formative experience of what

opening up of what asking to be loved of

what asking to be known feels like. And

um yeah, that's that's ruthless. There's

a um

Rob Henderson, my friend, told me this

idea where he said if you if you get

rejected by one girl, but you've gone up

to a hundred, even if you get rejected

by a hundred, getting rejected by one is

just another drop in the bucket. But if

you've only ever gone up to one girl and

you get rejected that one time, it's the

biggest event in your entire life. And

the same thing goes for, hey, maybe this

is an example for if you're going to

open up to somebody, make sure that the

first one has got a high hit rate of at

least not being an [ __ ] to you.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Exact. But bad is

stronger than good. So we remember those

bad events. It also suggests that maybe

a parenting uh something that parents

should emphasize is like to to model

kind of sharing, sharing and listening.

And I should say that, you know, we

really can't talk about sharing without

talking about how the person responds as

you say. And so actually feeling loved

for me, I would argue, starts with

curiosity, right? So it starts with

really you being curious about me and

asking deep questions and then I know I

can share. I feel safe. I feel inspired

to share. So I'm not just sharing out of

the blue and I'm I have to guess whether

you care or not or whether it's going to

be uncomfortable or whether you're going

to judge me or use it against me. So it

really starts with curiosity. Um and

genuine curiosity is so rare really when

you think about it. how often that

people really really care about what

goes on in your inner life and like you

know ask you a lot of questions.

>> Um anyway, so that that's that's where

really I'm coming from is that someone

asks another person a a question they

genuinely are interested in getting an

answer to and then you share in

response. You don't just kind of

>> you know share out of the blue.

>> Okay. So sharing mindset, stepping into

an interaction

>> with the understanding I'm going to put

more of myself across than I might

naturally uh tend to and that's going to

happen. It's going to unfold over time.

I'm not going to trauma dump

immediately. Uh and what what else just

on the sharing mindset? Are there any

other sort of uh pitfalls that people

need to be aware?

>> So like go slow. Um well the

vulnerability paradox which we're kind

of hitting on without naming it. So

vulnerability paradox is that we think

being vulnerable will lead other people

to like us less.

>> On average, people like us more.

>> It's interesting. Why do you think

that's the case?

>> So, so we think, yeah, we're we're so

focused on the bad. Like I reveal some

kind of I don't know like bad habit I

have and the other and other people and

we I think it's so terrible people will

judge me and I'm embarrassed and other

people just think it's human or maybe

they have the same habit. Um, actually

something happened to me a few weeks ago

where I really I totally bombed giving a

talk. Like I I I usually never do, but I

just completely blanked out and I was

just standing there on stage and I'm

like, I don't know what comes next. I

literally said, I don't know what what

to say. And it was mortifying. And I

can't tell you how many people came up

to me later and were like, Sonia, like I

I loved it. Like it just made you more

human. You know they So the thing that I

thought was mortifying other people

thought was like acute human failure. I

mean that's that's that was an unear are

you familiar with the prat fall effect.

Do you know this?

>> Yes.

>> So it's when somebody gets all of the

answers right in a test but they drop

their pencils on the way up to hand

their paper in and it's a a British

study the word pratt. I don't know

whether the word pratt has come over to

America. Anyway um we we like people who

show their human side. Uh which is which

is strange right? because there's an

assumption that we just want everybody

to be as perfect as possible.

>> There's a great line from a famous

screenwriter who said, "If you want to

write a character that no one connects

with, make them perfect."

>> Right? So, we actually don't want

perfection because it's not human. It's

not interesting. It's not complex.

>> I want to show you a video. Jared, can

you pull up that video of that

gymnastics girl? So, there's this

there's a Look at this. Just watch watch

this video.

Daddy, I'm scared. I'm not break.

>> You are brave.

>> Stop saying it. Brave. You are brave.

You do things that no one else has ever

done. You are doing skills that are

insane to even adults.

Okay? You have more courage in your

little body than a thousand people have

in all of their bodies combined.

You are mine and I am yours.

>> Nothing you can do will ever make me

stop loving you. Nothing you will do

will ever cause me to give up on you.

I'm going to let you know when I think

you're making a bad choice.

>> I am not going to let you talk down on

yourself. I'm not going to let you give

up on yourself. And I'm not going to let

you quit because something might be

scary. You can quit if you truly don't

love something.

But you cannot quit because something

might scare you.

Okay? You are not failing me. And if I

have made you feel like you are not good

enough or that I don't care about you,

then I have not done my job as a father.

I love you very much. Okay? And I don't

think that you're

ever want to think that I wouldn't be

there and do whatever it takes to make

sure that you can be successful doing

whatever you want to do. is at the end

of the day, this is something you have

told me you want to do. Now, if you

truly do not love cheer, guess what? You

don't have to do cheer. If you truly

love doing cheer, then yes, I'm going to

let you know when I think you are making

a silly decision because you don't think

you're good enough or because you think

something is too hard or too scary. The

only limits that you have are the limits

that you put on yourself.

If you keep telling yourself you are

incapable of doing something, guess

what? You will prevent yourself from

doing something. If you tell yourself

that you can achieve something, even if

it doesn't happen right away, guess

what? You will eventually end up doing

achieving it.

But we have to be able to be strong

here. Okay? To make this do what we are

capable of doing. It starts with this.

Okay?

>> What do you think of when you see that?

>> Okay. A couple things.

Um well it was beautiful that he could

go underneath what her fear was not just

she's afraid of you know doing this this

flip but she's afraid that if she fails

that maybe her dad won't love her which

is really beautiful like he gets under

with the fear and I do have one critique

that was beautiful obviously what he

said

>> but I do have one critique of this dad

>> well hey if anyone is open to feedback

something tells me that it's Anthony the

the dad

>> and it is that the what what therap I'm

not a therapist. What therapist says is

that you want to first um validate what

she said, right? So, she kept saying,

"I'm scared." And he's like, "No, you're

not scared." And and I guess the what

you're supposed to do is kind of not

supposed to do, right? Ideally, you want

to kind of validate like, "I I

understand you feel scared right now."

Or something like that. And then go and

talk about and give the speech that he

gid in the emotions.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. First validate. Yeah.

>> Is that important, do you think, when

receiving love and trying to give it as

well?

>> It's so interesting. So one thing we

talk about right let's say you're

sharing more of yourself because you

want to feel more loved and so you are

sharing more of yourself and then I'm

listening. So listening is so critical.

Most of us are not very good listeners.

And so what we do when we're trying to

listen, turns out the one study showed

25% of the time when we're listening,

our mind is wandering. And I bet it's

higher than that because we have this

inner chatter. We're like distracted or

we're mostly we're rehearsing what we

want to say next, right? How I'm going

to respond to you. and and and we also

want to sort of fix or give advice which

I do all the time instead of just simply

making the person feel heard which is

what we're just talking about and just

validate it right which is that like wow

that must have been really hard or that

must have been really inspiring you know

how did that feel and again that sounds

like therapy talk but you can put in

your own words um I do think the

pendulum has swung a little too far on

like validating over fixing you know

that nail in the head video that's so

popular the woman who has this nail in

the head. Oh, you got to watch this.

>> Okay.

>> So, she has a nail in the head and she's

like, "Oh, I feel I'm in such pain and

all my all my sweaters are are

shredding." And the guy's like, "Well,

you have this nail in your head." And

and she's like, and basically the point

of the video is she just wants to be

heard.

>> And then once he says, "I'm so sorry. It

must be so painful for you to have a

nail in your head." And she's like,

"Ah." Right. And that's the point of the

video. Whereas he keeps trying to give

her advice. can you should take the nail

out of your head and then you won't feel

so so much in pain and you won't shred

your sweaters.

>> And I just think like yeah, it's like

the again the pendulum is swung so far

like cuz sometimes people kind of need

like [ __ ] need advice, right? They

need to be told take the nail out of the

head. But I I agree that at first you

want to validate and then give advice

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That's drinklnt.com/modern

wisdom. I understand what you mean about

therapy speak maybe going mainstream to

an extent where validation is given when

it shouldn't be. A lot of people do need

some tough love. I don't know whether

good therapy speak has been widespread

yet though. I get the sense that in a

lot of these conversations it's still

quite performative. It's people saying

the thing that they've heard is kind of

cool. Well, it's really important like

to just follow your body and to just do

what feels good for you as opposed to

I'm going to sit in the muck with you.

I'm going to sit in the discomfort, you

know. Yeah, the validation thing. Good

point. I'm sure Anthony will take it on

board. Um, but he's sitting he's sitting

in the emotion with his daughter, right?

He's holding that space. It's

unfortunate that holding space has kind

of been memeified into

>> I hate that phrase.

>> Yeah, but it's that what it what it

means is so good. It's just a shame that

the phrase has become a cliche of itself

in a way. Um,

>> but well, there's there's one kind of

therapist speak that I think is is so

amazing and effective and it's

nonviolent communication, right? It's

using I statements, right? So, so I feel

hurt when you do this as opposed to why

do you always do this? You know, what's

wrong with you? And so, um, and that,

yeah, I that is just so effective has

been shown to be effective in so many

contexts. And people are doing it more

again, instead of accusing the other

person, it's about you. So, like it's

not like you're doing this, it's like I

feel this way when when I see this or

it's my understanding or the story I'm

telling myself is that you're um and

then you and then you ask and then you

have a request. Um, so, um, I'm a big

believer in nonviolent communication

>> and the TLDDR of that is I statements,

not you statements.

>> Yeah, there's a whole process to it, but

it's sort of I feel this when you, you

know, so let's say, yeah, like let's say

the person never cleaning up, you know,

I feel, you know, I I don't overburdened

when you don't wash the dishes, when you

do this. Um, you know, I'd like to, you

know, talk about I'd like to understand

what's going on. Maybe you you're really

stressed out at work.

>> Um, you know, and then you have a and

the hard part is the request. It's like

what do you actually It's easier to

criticize. It's harder to kind of ask.

The ask is the hard part. You know, I

would

>> it's it's vulnerable.

>> Um to sort of ask to say I I Yeah, it's

hard to ask. That's a funny It's almost

obvious to me why.

>> Maybe it's not so obvious. I would love

for us to come up with an agreement

about how you split how we split chores.

Mhm.

>> Um, so yeah, I statements.

>> Yeah. I I guess criticizing somebody

else puts the ball in their court. It

also makes your displeasure known and

and

like uh abscon you of having to take

responsibility, but putting yourself

forward and going, I would really like

it if you did that is another

opportunity for this person to hurt you.

>> Right? It's like, I'm going to request

this thing. Not only have you done this

thing that pissed me off that I've now

had to tell you about, I've had to tell

you that it's hurt me, but I'm now going

to like offer you this thing

that you could reject this request.

>> That's why it's that's why it's

vulnerable because you're risking

rejection

>> and that's life. Sometimes you'll be

rejected. What's your advice to people

who when they get to the precipice of

vulnerability of exposing a little bit

more of themselves than they feel like

they should that that sort of fear comes

up and the tightness in the chest and

the ringing in the ears? What is your

advice to them in that moment?

>> I mean part of my advice is just to go

for it. Take the leap. So many great

things in life involve taking risks.

Almost everything, right? like having a

baby, you know, going for that job that

you know, moving to a different city.

Um, but before they they take that leap,

I would go slow, right? So maybe the

first time just you Yeah. Um, reveal

something smaller and then take a Yeah.

Take a baby steps, I would say.

>> Mhm. Okay. So, listening to learn.

>> Yeah.

>> People are not just playing the game of

tennis waiting to hit the ball back.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, genuine curiosity. What else?

>> We talked about sharing. So, curiosity,

listen. So, so you start with curiosity.

Like, I'm really interested in you. And

curiosity, by the way, has an enthusiasm

component, right? Like, I'm really I'm

excited to hear what you have to say.

That's why it's such a gift, right?

Like, how often does that happen when

someone's so excited? Charismatic people

are really good at this, right? That's

why we flock to them because they're so

excited to hear what you have to say.

So, it starts with curiosity, then you

tell so I'm curious about you, then you

start sharing, which is hard. And but

I'm I'm validating and I'm supporting

your sharing by like really listening

and asking questions. So question asking

is not talked about or even studied that

much. So important. We don't ask each

other enough questions.

So research shows that we think that

especially asking deep questions. If I

ask you a deep question, I'll think ah

uh he's going to think I'm crying, that

I'm being a little nosy.

>> And sometimes that happens. But on

average, people crave to be seen, right?

they want to be known.

>> Um, I have an example for my daughter

who has a roommate who was having a lot

of problems and her her family was

coming over. They were crying. There

were all these sort of sessions and they

were speaking Spanish. So, she didn't

know. My daughter didn't know what they

were saying. So, I said to my daughter,

"Why don't you talk to your roommate and

ask her what's going on?" And she said,

"Oh, mom, I I I couldn't do that. She'll

think I'm crying." M

>> and I think, you know, she could be

right, but I think mo most likely she's

wrong that this roommate probably would

feel really supported and loved if she

uh if she was asked about it.

>> So, but we usually think Yeah. So, we

don't ask enough questions. So, ask your

friends, colleagues, and partners those

deep questions.

>> Okay. And that's radical curiosity.

>> That's part of radical curiosity and

part of listening because it's listening

is a back and forth. And then there's

two more mindsets we talk about. One is

called open heart and it's almost like

an obvious one. You know, I I think open

heart is basically warmth, kindness,

believing in the other person, wanting

their them to be happy, wanting their

dreams to come true. It's it's I say

it's obvious because I would think most

stable relationships have that mindset.

>> It's the other mindsets that often pe

people don't necessarily have. So, I

actually we sent the book to a few early

readers and um two of my male friends

said they they're like, "We love the

book, but they broke up with their

girlfriends after reading the book."

>> And it and we were I was really

surprised cuz I thought it was

prescriptive like, "Oh, do this, listen

better, you know, show curiosity." But

they actually used it to hold a mirror

to their relationships. So, they had the

open heart. They had kindness and warmth

and belief in the other person, but one

person said, "She's not really sharing

and I'm not really sharing." And another

person said, "My girlfriend is no longer

curious about my work. She never asks

about it." Um, and so those are really

important and and need to be worked on.

The open heart, I think, is one that I

would hope most relationships already

have.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. And the but the last one is my

favorite. The last mindset is called

multiplicity.

So the term multiplicity, I'm told,

comes from trauma research. The idea if

you have a trauma, it doesn't define

you. It's like you're a quilt of many,

many things. Of course, you have the

trauma, you can't take it away, but it

doesn't define you. That we're all,

we're all multi, you know, the Walt

Whitman quote, you know, I am

multitudes. I contain multitudes. Um, so

I'm like a quilt of both positive and

negative qualities and traits and

behaviors, right? So sometimes I'm kind

and other times I'm selfish. Sometimes

I'm loyal and sometimes I'm

narcissistic. And we're all like that,

right? And sort of use that multiplicity

lens to turn on the other person. So

when you're revealing your story and

something you say something I might

disapprove of makes me uncomfortable, I

use a multiplicity lens and see you as a

human in all of your complexity. And

what's interesting about that is that

when I tell this to people, everyone

nods and they're like, "Oh, yeah, of

course." And then when you actually give

specific examples, it's really hard,

right? People will say, "Oh, what a

jerk.

Right. What what an [ __ ] Like he did

that or she did that. Um so that's a

really hard one.

>> Yeah. I um I think it's difficult for so

few people want to sit in a discomfort

zone a tough emotion and their solution

is to just fix it to just say if I just

come up with the solution to this thing

we don't need to worry about it anymore.

M what will be the solution to uh to

someone reveals something negative about

them

>> about themselves? I don't want you to

feel that way anymore. Allow me to

minimize it. Allow me to uh tell you

what you can do. Like um this person at

work keeps mistreating me in this way

and every time that they do it makes me

feel really small and I'm worried that

they don't like me and I think that I

don't really belong there anymore. Well,

she's a [ __ ] anyway and you shouldn't

do it. and you're like, "Hey, dude,

you're not you're not in this with me.

What I want to hear from you is, damn,

that must be that must be really hard to

go through.

What What's that been like over the last

couple of months?" Or what do you what

are you worried this means? Or what's

the emotion just after that happens?

Like, okay, like I'm someone cares.

Someone cares enough to do that. And uh

yeah, I just think people's

it comes from two two directions. It

comes from I don't want this person who

I care about to suffer anymore and also

I don't want to be in this discomfort

anymore. And both of those things

together can be wrapped up in a I'll

just fix it, minimize it, or make it go

away.

>> Um uh I had a coach once and some a

friend did something that I was really

upset about. And so I'm talking to the

coach and I'm doing that. I'm

minimizing. I'm thinking, "Oh, well,

because of this and this reason, they

must have done it." And the coach said,

"Sonia, just stop it right now." And he

said, "Skip right over the rumination

and the justification, the

rationalization, and right onto sadness.

Go right go straight to sadness, which

is just be sad that your friend did

this, right?" Which is kind of like what

you're saying. Sort of sit in it

>> and then you can, you know, rationalize.

But but the rationalization like you

know there's a fine line between kind of

condoning justifying and compassion

>> right when is it compassion where you

see someone and they do something kind

of terrible and you can see like this

happened once with my friends where this

guy said something really terrible in a

text. And we're like oh what a jerk. And

one of my friends said you know when I

read that text I see the little boy

inside of him or I see the teenage boy

>> who used to be rejected by girls. And so

whatever he got triggered, it's not

excusing or condoning or justifying, but

it's having compassion. Uh and and I

don't know, it really helps me to see

people in this sort of more complex

light. Again, it doesn't mean I want to

hang out with him, but I again I think

that compassion um is really helpful.

>> What do you think of the things in a

relationship that makes people feel

unloved the most?

I think when people kind of feel a

little like I guess when they start to

feel invisible

and the other person stops noticing well

stops asking questions or we talked

about that stops being curious about you

we often stop being curious about the

people we've known the longest right

because we think oh I know everything

about them

>> and of course you don't because every

day we're having new fears and dreams

and self-doubts right and regrets um so

stopping being curious but the other

thing is yeah just kind of feeling yeah

like they that you're invisible they

They're not noticing the little things.

You know, when we ask people what makes

them feel loved, a lot of them were

those little things like like I remember

being at a party and friends would bring

me like a piece of fruit or water or a

blanket. And before I even knew I wanted

those things, they're like, "Sonia, you

you need this water. You need a blanket

cuz you seem cold." And I'm like, "Oh, I

didn't even know I needed a blanket."

And so like when pe when you feel loved

is when people you you feel loved when

people are doing they're noticing you

and they're noticing things that you

need before you even need before you

even realize you need them. So those

little things when and when your partner

your best friend sort of stops noticing

those things you you don't feel loved.

>> Have you looked at the whatever the

strongest predictors are of long-term

relationship satisfaction?

>> So I partnered with a love scientist to

write this book because I'm really more

of a happiness scientist. I don't think

I can answer this question, but I will

tell you a really interesting finding

that we do talk about, which is how do

you respond to good versus bad news in a

relationship, right? You come home and

you say, "Hey honey, um uh I got laid

off." Uh or, you know, something bad

happened. My car the car broke down. And

everyone kind of knows how to respond to

bad news or sort of something bad that

happened. Um but what if you come home

and you say, "Hi honey, I got a new job

offer in New York."

>> Right? So, it turns out how we respond

to good news is a better predictor of

relationship duration than how to how we

respond to bad news because it's so it's

not easy, right? You got a job offered

in New York. I mean, it could be

threatening. Does that mean we have to

move? Does that mean you're going to

work harder so you don't have time to,

you know, with the kids? Maybe you might

even be envious that like my career

isn't going as well as yours. And so

what research shows is the the best, you

know, well, the the the reaction that is

predictive of relationship duration is

truly celebrating good news with your

partner, right? Being like that's so

amazing being enthusiastic, right?

That's so amazing. Tell me what

happened, how did you know, what did

they say? You know, how did you feel? Um

>> maybe later you can deal with some of

the insecurities that come out of that,

right?

>> But so so anyway, that is one factor

that predicts relationship strength is

is celebrating. is called capitalizing,

celebrating good things.

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That's join.woop.com/modern

wisdom. It's interesting how how much

easier it is to sort of care for

somebody who's struggling than it is to

celebrate somebody who's winning many

ways.

>> Yeah. And you know what? How many people

the list of people that you share your

wins with is a small list. Is that

right? Right. Because we we learn not to

be boastful, right? And I remember like

I would come home and tell my family

about some some great thing that

happened, maybe an award I got and my

kids would say, "Oh, mom, you're

boasting."

>> And I'm like, "If I can't share this

with my family, like who can I share the

[ __ ] is going on?"

>> And so we've sort of trained like not to

boast and yet of course like we want to

celebrate those things, right? So, and

so, um, yeah, and so we we don't have as

much practice both sharing and I guess

reacting

>> to to those wins.

>> What about in the relationship if you're

doing everything right and the other

person just doesn't show it in return?

>> Great question. And I get that asked

that question a lot where let's say I'm

doing all the right things. So, I'm I'm

sharing, I'm listening, I'm curious, I'm

seeing you with a multip multiplicity

lens. I'm I'm ac with I'm I'm listening

with warmth and acceptance and the other

person just does not respond. They don't

return. They don't reciprocate. They're

not curious about you. They're not

listening. They're not sharing.

>> What do you do? So,

>> I'm not a therapist. I mean, therapists

are very like, you know, they'll never

sort of say exactly directly what they

really think. I think right bluntly and

I'll just say bluntly,

>> maybe you need to walk away. Maybe

you've made a poor choice. If it's a

family member, yeah, probably you can

walk away, but just accept that you're

not going to feel as loved as you want

to feel by this person. Um, I mean, of

obviously keep trying, but if you've

kept trying and and it's not working,

>> well, so much of it, I think the

discontent that people feel in

situations like this is

I I feel an incompatibility here and I'm

continuing to push up against it. And

you know how when you see a bridge and a

bridge twists like this, it's because

one side is going in one direction and

another isn't moving with it. If you

just did that, it's just a bridge that's

rotating, right? But the tension occurs

in the flexing like this. And I wonder

how many people if you were to just say,

"Hey, dude, this just isn't working."

And you're continuing to try and put

this square peg into a round hole is

where the discomfort comes from. And if

it's you got an uncle that you just

cannot resonate with or a younger

brother who just you and him are like

different species. So, okay, guess what?

Thanksgiving and Christmas, you're going

to see each other. You wish them happy

birthday. You keep on top of it. But the

tension and the pain is coming from you

wanting a thing which is not accessible.

And I don't think it's your job in life

to drown trying to keep people afloat

who refuse to swim.

>> Exactly. Although you know you you try

curiosity by the way with the brother or

the uncle, right? like why why do you

believe that thing that you know you

think it's true

>> shut up Sonia I don't I don't need to

hear that

>> right well if that's right if that if

that's the response consistently and I I

completely agree with you but is there's

this tension because I hear all this

advice like you know people in our

society in our individualistic society

they they kind of break up too often you

know they kind of end relationships too

often like certainly on dating apps or

you know you're like oh this person

isn't working for me I'm just going to

go to the next person

>> so there's sort of this advice you hear

that maybe we don't work hard enough um

to sort of fix our differences. And then

there's all those people and I'm

thinking romantic relationships and

they're together forever and they're

just clearly not right for each other

and they're clearly unhappy

>> and I feel I really feel for them,

right? Like life is too short. Um so I

don't know. I don't know what's but I

guess both can be true at the same time.

>> Well, it is absolutely the both can be

true. I've got this idea called advice

hyperresponders. So, uh advice doesn't

distribute evenly. It distributes more

like alcohol than medicine. Uh the

people who could really benefit from

loosening up and having a drink remain

abstinent while the people that are

already drinking too much. They take it

on board. So for instance, the person

who has the fear, I am emotionally

inadequate will absorb the message you

should open up about your emotions

wholesale because it confirms their fear

that they already weren't good at doing

emotions and that will cause them not to

rectify the uh imbalance but to

overexaggerate something that already

exists. Um, another one of the person

who permanently feels like they're not

working hard enough will take on the

David Gogggins Jocker Willink message of

just get up at 4:30 a.m. You've got to

crush it, dude. As opposed to going, I

actually need to listen to the advice

that tells people to chill out a little

bit more. Meanwhile, the place I first

saw this was after me too. So, me too

told guys, don't be pushy with women.

And the dudes that were blowing through

boundaries didn't pay any attention to

it. Meanwhile, nervous guys that could

do with a little bit more of a a

They decide. They were like, "I knew I

was too much already. I already thought

I had this."

>> And this is how

>> advice lands in groups that already are

moving in that direction. It confirms.

What are

>> you calling this?

>> Advice hyper respponders.

>> So, you throw advice down and the people

who already do it pick it up first. Uh,

it often doesn't correct over it doesn't

correct imbalances. It just exaggerates

predispositions. And, um, I think it's

true and that's how you end up in

situations like this. How is it the case

that people are both cycling through

relationships too quickly and staying in

ones that they shouldn't for too long?

Well, it's because

>> different kinds of people.

>> Bingo. Bingo. And then when you give a

piece of advice, this is the thing

that's like interesting and penicious

about it is that

>> typically one side of the fence sounds

like a more pro-social and noble piece

of advice. So for instance, the idea

work harder and ignore your emotions

sounds upward aiming. It is believing in

the little guy. It's grassroots. It's

spitting sawdust. It's zero to hero.

That tends to be more popular to talk

about online. Even if it increases the

disposition of the type A person that

can never switch off. The idea of don't

let good relationships fall away. you

should work through them and try hard

sounds pro-social in a world of atomized

transactional swipe dating, but it

worsens the situation for the people who

already burden themselves way too much

with psychological strength that makes

them powerful in the boardroom but

silent at the kitchen dinner table.

>> Okay, but let's talk about I think one

concept that can kind of unite what

you're talking about is is the idea of

is the idea of dosage, right? So,

Aristotle's golden mean, right? So

there's a there's an optimal dosage for

everything like uh there's somewhere in

the middle there's an optimal weight

like amount of time you should stay

together before you break up etc etc and

I'm a huge believer in dosage I think it

applies to almost everything right and

so in terms of happiness research right

can you do too much acts of kindness

absolutely right you can be too kind to

others you can neglect yourself you can

do too little almost everything uh

should be done in moderation including

moderation of course Um, so that's uh

that's how I think about things is sort

of in the optimal dosage. But sometimes

you're talking about things that

sometimes are in the same continuum,

right? It has to be in the same

continuum, the same spectrum to to

figure out what the optimum dosages.

>> Well, ideally people people are going to

take some of the advice from the

opposite side of the spectrum.

And unfortunately, people don't usually

want to hear that. So yeah, it's it's an

interesting one. Okay. So

>> tactically, what are the most powerful

habits for implementing this?

>> The more I think about feeling loved and

and these mindsets, the more I think

they apply to almost everything. You

know, like when you study something, you

see it everywhere. Um,

>> but seriously, like it applies to uh

reducing polarization in our society,

right? When you're curious and really

listening to people who are on the other

side of the political spectrum, it

actually see research has shown it's

reduced it reduces prejudice. It reduces

differences. And so I think out of all

everything I've talked about, I think

curiosity and listening are probably the

two habits that can really change your

life. Like if we all became better

listeners, more curious. Research shows

that if you're a leader or a manager or

a supervisor and if you're curious and

really listening to your employees or

your followers, they're going to be more

productive. They're going to be more

engaged. They're going to be less likely

to quit.

>> Pretty amazing, right? Uh it's not that

hard to implement. Um, and then sharing,

sharing too. There's a study that came

out maybe a year ago that had people who

are literally like wearing different

hats on the political spectrum, no pun

intended. Um, sharing. And so I might

share about like I'm struggling with my

son and the guy in the other hat is

sharing, oh, you know, I'm also

struggling with my son.

>> That reduced prejudice and reduced

polarization. Just sharing more of your

humanity with someone who's really

different from you.

>> Um, so but yeah, but I will I will I

would stick with those three. but

especially curiosity and listening.

>> Okay. What's something if you were to

say this technique or this habit, this

one thing that you can do tomorrow

>> that would improve your ability to feel

love? What would it be?

>> Well, first of all, have a conversation

with the person that you want to feel

loved by. Um, and actually, this is my

number one kind of happiness tip. If you

want to be happier tomorrow, have a a

15-inute conversation with someone. Uh

at least 15 minutes. And then when

you're having the conversation, share,

listen, show curiosity, listen with

acceptance and warmth. When you think

about relationships, they're really a

series of conversations.

Even when you're not talking, right?

You're communicating. That's how I think

about relationships. They're a series of

conversations. And so when you think

about I want to feel more loved, it

seems very overwhelming, like what do I

do? I need to make myself more lovable.

I need to change your mind and and get

you to love me more.

>> But really, all you have to do is change

the next conversation or change the next

series of conversations.

>> So, that would be my number one tip is

show up differently in your next

conversation with that person

>> by sharing more, listening more, showing

curiosity with warmth and acceptance.

>> So, you're saying that life is just one

big podcast? That's your main that's the

main take.

>> Yes, absolutely. But also, I'm kind of

biased cuz I'm a talker. So my my oldest

daughter once said to me, "Mom, you talk

so much I can't think." So I do like to

talk, but but and also in our culture,

we're where actually there's some

research on this. You know,

individualist cultures are more talking

cultures. Uh collectivist cultures like

Asian cultures are more listening

cultures.

>> Um but you know, we can adapt these

mindsets. You know, you don't have to

talk a mile a minute. You know, it's

just it's just communication that

matters.

>> Yeah. across all of the studies that

you've been a part of, what's your

favorite one? Like what's the what's the

most fun or interesting or novel study

that you've done?

>> I think my favorite one is we asked

people to act more extroverted for a

week. So we said to both introverts and

extroverts, we said for the next week

act more extroverted. We didn't actually

use the word extroverted because it has

connotations in our culture. I think we

said you know sociable, energetic, uh

talkative.

And then for the week after we asked

people to act more introverted, again

using different words like deliberate

and quiet um and vice versa.

>> And we were shocked at what we found. So

we found the biggest effects we'd ever

found in any of our interventions.

People in the week that people acted

more extroverted, they were so much

happier and sort of everything improved

>> in during the introversion week.

Surprisingly, sometimes people actually

got less happy or kind of no change. And

the second surprise was that this effect

was the same for introverts and

extroverts.

>> So even people who were already

extroverted increasing their

extroversion improved their happiness.

>> But well it's interesting that you you

thought that was the surprising part. No

no this the introversion is the

surprising part I think to me that the

introverts you know Susan Kane wrote

this great book right called Quiet. Love

the book and I'm a big fan of

introversion. I think there's a lot of

benefits to being introverted, but she

she writes that, you know, introverts

get exhausted by trying to act social.

>> I don't I actually don't quite believe

it. Like the evidence is now showing

that it's actually the extroverts that

get exhausted by social behavior. It

makes sense cuz they're social much more

of the time.

>> Um, yeah. So, so the introverts also got

happier acting extroverted.

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What do you make of the

where you get your energy from on your

own versus with other people is the best

definition of introversion versus

extroversions. Does this still hold true

or has this been replication?

>> So, I love the definition again that

Susan Kane made popular. It's a sexy

definition, but it if it's inaccurate,

then we need new one.

>> I believe that the evidence is not

really holding up. And actually Nick

Epley, who wrote a book called a little

more social, great book, um talks about

this. I think that the evidence is not

quite there. Um so I don't know, maybe

again absence of evidence is an evidence

of absence. Um but the studies I think

there's only with one exception studies

are showing that introverts that are

asked to act more social do not feel

depleted or exhausted. Um, but again,

maybe we need more research.

>> That's interesting. It wouldn't surprise

me. I think a lot of the time what

introverts are doing is

finding a home base or fi finding a

situation that feels comfortable and

familiar to them. But you can get

drained out of your social muscle an

awful lot. Like if you don't lose it,

use it, you lose it. And if you don't

get into the rhythm of seeing for for

instance we have every Friday and this

is one of the best this one of the be

two best things that three best things

actually that uh from a habit

perspective that I've done. First one is

sleeping with my phone outside of my

bedroom. Second one is when I think

about a friend that I haven't spoken to

in a while. I just text them immediately

and I'm like hey man just thinking of

you. Hope everything's good or whatever.

Uh but the third one we've got a

standing dinner reservation at 6 p.m.

every Friday. It's just an open invite

for between six and eight people. And no

matter how good or bad your week's been,

you always turn up. And if you're in

town, you're there. Sometimes people

bring new friends. Sometimes people,

it's just you and it's been me and one

other guy. And um

the fact the fact that you've got that,

it means some people have got more

introverted days and more extroverted

days. On my most introverted day, I'm

still at dinner and I leave and I'm

like, "That was fine. That was worth it.

>> I love it. I love it. I love it. Um,

very important point that you just

raised, right? So, so when in our in

these studies when we ask in when we ask

introverts to be extroverted, we don't

ask them to go to a party and be the

life of the party. They can choose how

to be extroverted, right? So, an

introvert is going to do different

things. So, they might call up a friend,

they might chat a little bit more during

lunch. You know, I was super shy when I

was young and when I was when I was in

college.

>> I can't imagine that.

>> I and I really was. I my parents told me

that before age 10 I did not speak to

other adults other than teachers and and

family members and then I really kind of

pushed through it but okay here's one

one way I did it in college you know we

had sections and I forced myself to say

one thing in each section and it was

terrifying like I it was really really

hard but then the more you do it you

know so anyway that's the kind of thing

that introvert might say like at lunch

I'm going to I'm going to try to say one

more thing

>> uh but I I love your three habits. I'm

going to add one more to it that one of

my friends introduced me is when you

meet someone or you're talking to

someone, they say, "Oh, let's get

together." You know, this happens all

the time. And what happens is you don't

get together. You know, you start your

text and then you know, you get busy and

then you're like, "Oh, how about next

week?" And that doesn't work out. He

said, "You do not leave that interaction

without making a firm plan to get

together." You know, a specific time and

place and date. And that that really

works. I heard a really Machavevelian

way to work out if someone actually

wants to hang out with you. Uh if you

propose a date and they cancel and you

say, "Tell me when you want to

reschedule for and they don't

reschedule." It was basically reverse

engineering whether or not this person

is genuinely busy or just doesn't like

you. Uh I don't know whether I think

you'd probably need you reading into

that a little bit much. People are just

busy. But uh I thought I thought that

was an interesting

>> I like that. Tell me when you want to

reschedule for.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Just tell me when. Like hey,

especially if you reced, dude. Like it's

on you. Okay. You [ __ ] it. I was going

to go.

>> Um,

>> you know, there's a New Yorker cartoon

and it's like, "How about never? Is

never good for you?"

>> Yeah. But that's what someone says if

they don't come up with a a date or a

time.

>> Exactly. Yeah.

>> What's something about happiness that

almost everyone believes but is wrong?

>> Well, the one that's kind of boring is

that people think, well, okay, it's

maybe it's not boring. I have a book

about this called The Myths of

Happiness. Um, I'll be happy when I'll

be happy when I have a baby. I'll be

happy when I move to New York. I'll be

happy when I get that tech job I wanted

to get. I'll be happy when whatever. Um,

and the truth is you are happy when

those things happen. But then what

happens is it's called hydonic

adaptation. We adapt to that new goal.

And this is by the way humans probably

would never progress if we didn't have

adaptation because then we'd we would

just kind of sit on the mountain and do

nothing. But we always want more. And uh

you bring your same self with you when