they were asking the right questions

we can stop as much as you want by the

way

Game of Thrones flips my whole world on

its head I sometimes worry that I'm like

alienated because it will happen when I

was so young and like literally from the

age of 12 I've been like set for life

I had a traumatic relationship with my

dad and ever since I can remember like

I've really struggled sleeping it had

like met its like Peak and I was at

school I was taken by a teacher to the

staff room she was saying like what's

happened

I think a lot of the traumatic things

that were happening I didn't realize

that they were wrong I would look around

at other kids and be like where does the

joy when does that come for me

when you were 22 you talked about issues

with substance abuse yeah I would just

had that sense of impending doom and I

didn't know how to make it go away

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foreign

what do I need to understand who you are

now what do I need to know about

that part of your life

um well I as like a young child before

the age of like eight

um had

quite a traumatic like relationship with

my dad and I don't really want to go

into it too much because it affects my

siblings and my whole family

um but like that really consumed a lot

of my childhood

um

ever since I can remember like I've

really struggled sleeping and I think a

lot of the traumatic things that were

happening I didn't realize that they

were wrong but I knew that like I would

look around at other kids and be like

why

why like why don't they seem to

understand this like pain or dread or

fear like

like you know what where does the joy

like when does that come for me like I

you know I kind of always felt like a

felt things very deeply

um in comparison to other people and so

when that sort of period of my life

ended

um I imagined that like you know

everything is just like up from here

like everything's perfect now

um all those things that I was concerned

about were actually wrong and like now

I'm sort of free

um

yeah and then you know at different

stages in life you realize that

there's never like an end destination

for that freedom um and it's

yeah it kind of comes from within I

guess like when are you going to

let yourself be free from

from the pain but yeah that really

consumed a lot of my childhood that was

sort of like what I was identified as

you know what I identified myself as for

a long time and then

you know everything changed and I sort

of became this like

you know character who

uh who wouldn't let anything bad happen

to her or anyone around her and

yeah I guess like maybe there is some

sort of like connection between those

two things

your mother left your father yeah before

I was born actually well no I guess

she

escaped when I was about four months old

so

it was you know bad before that and then

uh yeah have you spoken about this

before no

I don't know I like you I'm sorry I feel

like this is an um

it's something that I've been like

learning a lot about recently and I feel

like I can speak about it now yeah

um does it has it taken you time to like

to can I ask the question about have you

spoken about it before because

um

I think at like 25 years old there was

like really foundational things I

learned about myself that that I only

learn I mean you know sometimes you read

something or you hear something and you

go [ __ ] that explains this thing

so my question there was just like did

it take you time to connect those dots

yeah definitely

I think that people sort of talk about

like rewiring people on your podcast

actually speak about rewiring your brain

but that first in order to do that you

have to recognize when your your brain

is doing a pattern that you want to

rewire and quite often like it's already

triggered so many things and like you're

in a bad mood and you have no idea why

and it's hard to kind of like Trace back

from that point so like that awareness

um

and like finding that kind of for me had

to come first like when it really

started to I don't know when I really

started to understand it

it was like capturing those minutes

where I was like why does that make me

feel really uncertain or

angry or like make me wanna like

shout at someone like what what is that

and then you can start to go like

work your way back you know so you were

seeing like social triggers or

situations where you were you know I saw

you I saw you said when you spoke to

Lewis house you said I've always been

quite an anxious person yeah and I

really reflect on that because I you

know I'm not an expert in anxiety I've

been anxious myself I've been an anxious

person at times myself but um

I I've always wondered for many years if

we're we're born that way or if if we're

predisposed or if something happens and

then we become anxious

have you

thinking about how you saw sort of

social triggers have you connected any

dots regarding being an anxious person

as you call it to those early years

as you've grown up now

um

yeah

I guess I think like a lot of that

anxiety

as I started to sort of recognize it it

came from like not really being myself

and like then feeling anxious about the

way that you're being perceived or

whatever but knowing that you're not

really being honest and that will of

course make you very anxious because if

you have no idea who you're projecting

then you really have no idea how other

people are going to hear it because you

don't even know how you mean it and you

know that sort of like facade of like

I don't know whoever you know whoever I

thought was like capable of like getting

through interviews or social like

settings or whatever

um

and I think that like struggle with

identity and like the big questions of

like who am I I think that everyone

struggles with that

um but I think that like you know

there's a period of your childhood

um where

you know certain situations

can really stunt

um like

or just Ulta forever like who you are

going to become

um

and that's not to say that you can't

also just like become a very peaceful

and uh

you know content and fulfilled person

um but like that sort of Basic Instinct

of like what do I what brings me joy you

know you've kind of second guessed that

a lot as a kid and you're not known

you know whether to trust what you

really think or feel or you know

whatever sort of like mental

manipulation

um and that can yeah really have like

lasting effects so

yeah kind of like discovering that and

being like yes I struggle with you know

my identity and knowing who I am so that

brings me anxiety because I don't know

who to be in a social situation

um but then also sort of going back back

far enough that you're like oh

I don't know if that person really

exists anymore and that's okay because I

can find

you know something

um

yeah you know find like a good

version of myself

um but yeah I don't know how do you what

do you think about that

um about which part well I guess

um like it feels like a lot of people

are trying to retreat to like being a

child and like the things that brought

you Joy and like who you are at your

core and who you are when no one's

looking and

um

uh but you know can can that that part

of you be so damaged from a very a young

age that

that you could be searching for

something that

um

you know is just for you to make up

that's a really interesting question

when I've never even pondered before

um I was thinking about in fact Lewis

Howes and I think shortly after you had

a conversation with him

it would have been because I know the

timeline he I think he opened up for the

first time it's so funny because

when I rewatched your conversation with

Lewis

you start sharing things that were

difficult in your early years you don't

share anything like this with him and

then he says to you he's quite stoic and

he goes yeah I went through things like

that as well you're aware of what he

yeah yeah I am now see he went through

um they're pretty you know horrific uh

child abuse at a young age from I

believe a babysitter if I'm correct that

was looking after him

I had sexually abused him and he talks

my reference is only him talking about

how he feels he has to go back and for

like forgive

himself

the child that he was and heal himself

heal the child yeah yeah so he has I

don't know if you know but he has his

face

at that age on his wallpaper of his

phone and with his therapist he's worked

through healing that young version of

himself and then moving on to the next

to the teenage years and so do I do I do

I know if we can um if that child that

we're seeking

still exists in there I mean my very

naive assumption would be that they do

yeah

um are they are they still going to be

childlike

I don't know

there's something

quite naive about it being childlike

which may be wisdom

makes irreversible but

when you when you talk about Joy you

talk about struggling to feel Joy at a

young age

what is that how do I how do I how do I

understand those words

I think like

you know when you watch

kids play

um

and like there's struggles and there's

tiffs and there's like whatever but

there's like

just like complete inhibition right and

it's just like running or it's like

going on the slide or it's like

I felt like I would often stop in a

situation like that I'd be doing

something and then I would just stop and

be like something awful is going to

happen

and just like

I couldn't

continue

um

tissue yeah maybe Jack could you grab a

tissue please

we can stop as much as you want by the

way we don't have to carry on

it's a great thing for podcasting yeah

yeah maybe I'll hide them around the

other side I could put them just like

here cool is that that's off camera yeah

it's all good

um

yeah I would just

um

had that sense of impending doom and I

didn't know how to make it go away

um

and I had to like

great memories I don't even know it's

hard to remember a lot of them a lot of

those times that I felt very free I was

actually on my own

um

but I would never have like thought I

was like an introverted person like I

always would have thought that I was

quite extroverted because

um I'd perform a lot of people you know

um

but yeah I yeah I struggled I yeah I

struggled with that when I was a kid

um

and just thought like

how do I stop feeling like this and just

feel like

everything's okay you know but at that

age I'm guessing you didn't know why you

felt like that so knowing how to to go

about

yeah healing from it is is an impossible

task right it's good point about you

can't solve for something that you

you're not aware of yeah

going like nothing's wrong like nothing

is wrong everything's the way that it's

supposed to be

but it wasn't but I did I just would

tell myself that like what is wrong with

you like

was there an age when you found found

out

because I kind of asked this question

earlier but was there any was there a

moment where you found out what was

wrong yeah

when I was about eight

um

I

was quite like a complex like string of

events that happened

but basically it had like met its like

Peak and I was at school

and I guess I was well I mean obviously

I was really struggling

um

and I don't really know what happened

but I was taken by a teacher to the

staff room and

um

she was saying like what's wrong you

know like what's happened

have you are you hungry well and she

said I don't know

yeah you're hungry I said yeah she said

did you eat breakfast and I said no and

she said oh why not and I said we just

didn't have any breakfast and you know

and then she says well you know do you

normally have breakfast and he's not

really and so you know the sort of they

were asking the right questions

okay

so you can get them

I'm gonna come and give you I feel

really confounded

okay yeah

yeah

no I I do think it's important because

I had so many people who loved and cared

about me so much but I'd never been

asked the right questions where I could

really say

what was wrong

um

and

um my mum came to school and picked me

up and

um my siblings were also at secondary

school at the time and they

um some of them was were with mum and

one was not and they were dead still and

yeah

um and it was the first time that like

it was all of the doors were sort of

open and all of these things that we

were experiencing were like out on the

table and

it was really really hard because I

still wanted to fight and say no like

these things aren't bad like

you're trying to take me away from my

dad and that's wrong you know like

um because I was like indoctrinated in a

way like you know

um

I think that's why I'm obsessed with

Cults because I'm like I get it I get it

I was in a child cult against my mother

um yeah so I really was sort of fighting

it for for at the beginning but but

basically like my whole

world like

flips on its head and even though all

these things that I'd was feeling I

thought oh my God I'm so glad I don't

have to see my dad anymore

uh it still was like against everything

that I had ever

knew to be true you know

I don't know if I'm being too cryptic no

I don't think I am I don't think you are

you can be as cryptic as you wanna

yeah yeah I understand what you're

saying and that's the that's one that I

need to to get the context um and you

can just talk as come whatever you about

whatever you want to talk about in terms

of what makes you comfortable I don't

know I don't know where your line is

yeah

you need that

um

when I watch cult documentaries there's

a lot of um manipulation that goes on in

these documentaries there's a lot of

fear that causes silence

um

and that's usually why

people find it that's often why people

find it difficult to leave those

situations and then when they do have

these like I always observe this like

conflicting array of emotions like they

have this love for this person but at

the same time

as you've you've described it once out

of that situation there's somewhat are

probably you know a spirit spiritually

free and happy to be gone so that that

conflict of emotions always fascinated

me how two truths can almost exist in

the same place

you can feel

you know so

um liberated and free and at the same

time just like that impending doom is

kind of still there where

yeah

it's like all your problems don't just

sort of like go away you know

um

yeah you still

like care a lot about that person or you

still sort of understand

you know the pain or whatever that led

to those very very poor decisions

as you sit here today 25 years old how

do you feel about

your father

well to be honest with you

I've been thinking about this a lot

um

and

like I've been trying to do this thing

where I stopped taking things personally

and like not just like you know when

someone's had a bad day and they like

push in front of you in the queue but

like the big things in life like what if

I said that it was not like it wasn't

because of me that that happened

like

it it if it if I wasn't there it would

have been something someone else like

it's not

um

yeah it wasn't like because

there's something wrong with me that

like these bad things happened when I

was a child

is that a thought you had

yeah yeah yeah

I felt like there was something

inherently wrong with me or us because

like we did lots of things wrong all the

time which is like why you know

you you know you'd be mistreated or

whatever because you're like oh like we

really need to be better at this because

we keep doing things wrong and we keep

getting in trouble type thing

um but then I was like well you know

like and especially well because it was

someone you know my a parent and I felt

like oh they're supposed to like like

you and so

you know but then I was like well what

if like there's just like no connection

between like me being

you know his daughter and like it could

have been like literally anyone like

experiencing

that pain and it would like still be the

same and then I just kind of could

separate myself from it a little bit and

I could start to sort of reflect on him

as a person and be like what happens

that you get so stuck in your mind that

you can just like

you know permanently like mistreat

people

um

you know what

children

children

like your own children

but but you know

taking that step back and seeing it like

more objectively

kind of like makes me quite interested

in in the guy I don't know him at all

um and I'm like

what happened to you when you were a kid

like

who are your parents

is this something that you were always

like when you were a kid did you like

pull the legs off bugs or like

you know did this did you learn this

like you know these are all the

questions that I would ask yeah yeah and

so that's kind of like how I feel about

them now where I'm just like what if

like he would make a fascinating

documentary and it's like nice to to

like

you know not feel the the personal pain

of that anymore and actually just think

like

you know

I don't know if any of the answers to

that will like help me in my journey

um but it is sort of like a nicer way to

think of him than

you know as like someone who doesn't

love me or like me or like whatever

you know he talked about that feeling

that you were to blame for

outcomes in your life that might well

especially as a relationship early as

that weren't you weren't to blame for

um were there symptoms of that as you

grew up this kind of the feeling that

you know

um when things happen it was because you

did something wrong or you were you were

to blame for things did you feel that as

an adult in your teenage years at all

yeah definitely I think that like I

really

um

wanted to control a lot of things that

you just can't control because

like

if I don't then if I'm not worrying or

thinking about this or like wanting to

control this then like it's all going to

fall down and like then I'll blame

myself and it'll be like a you know

something that I could have done better

or should have done differently

um

yeah I feel like

I guess it was more just like trying to

control like the uncontrollable and that

then leading to like another way that I

could like

beat myself down you know

it's interesting because I've seen so

many other interviews you've done and

without knowing that early context a lot

of those a lot of the things I was

hearing didn't make sense yeah yeah not

that you know it makes sense is maybe an

interesting use of words but

um it always felt like there was a part

of your story that was

Untold

yeah

it you know I think when I was like 12

and I'd done a bit of Game of Thrones

and was doing interviews and like the

first interviews that I'd ever done

I remember people sort of being like but

you're so young like how do you

protect like how do you show this pain

like you've just seen like the death of

your father or like how do you know that

like how no how do you

act that sort of like Fury and I just

like in my head was like that's a really

stupid question because I've known how

that feels but like you know I it's like

I don't know something nice to just like

leave in the past I guess but

it's it's hugely influenced like

everything that I do as an actor like I

get to access all of that confusion and

pain

in my job and I get to like really feel

it in like every

fiber of my being but there's no like

consequence and there's no like you're

not really shouting at anyone or hurting

someone or it's like it's all pretend

but like the emotion is is real and like

just being able to like let that out is

something that I didn't do for a long

time and so it's like it just all sort

of came to the surface and

I guess like holding you know

the early part of my story like to

myself is also just because I haven't

really understood it the way that I have

now and and I'm sure I'll understand it

you know far better in the future but

I feel

um I feel like now there's like some

sort of closure to it where the journey

might help other people whereas before

it was just like pain pain pain pain

and no like conclusion right right no

like okay we're through the other side

yeah it was just like other problems

that come from like the same problem

problems yeah

um

but yeah I mean it's like you know

going into that audition to play Arya

Stark I was sort of surrounded by girls

that like were joyous and like were

free and like

like they were kids there were kids who

were happy and

um you know

had you know had whatever they had

um

and I thought wow I really

um you know here we go again like gonna

be a disappointment but you know for

that

moment actually that was that was what

they needed and so that was sort of like

a

moment in my life where I was like huh

maybe this thing isn't all bad maybe

there can be something like beautiful

that comes from

you know this this part of myself that I

find like

um

unnatural like or like just different to

to other kids

here we go again I'm going to be a

disappointment

oh yeah

yeah

what do you mean by that

so when you when you got the role you

presumed that you were going to let

people down yeah yeah no

I just like going into the room I meant

like okay oh no I'm not gonna be what

they're looking for but I I did end up

being what they were looking for but

like you know I just um

yeah yeah yeah of course

um

yeah

I don't know like did you did you like

always feel ever feel like disappointing

yeah

yeah of course yeah there's been moments

in my life where I've definitely feel

like I've let myself down and other

people down and it's not a good feeling

to to sit with but I think I've tried to

channel it into

um

into making myself I actually went for

an audition at 14 years old to do the

junior Apprentice you know The

Apprentice the TV show so they launched

the junior apprentice and I went for the

first audition got through to the final

20 and then I got long story but I got

this email from the BBC saying that

someone had leaked the press that I was

going on the show so they said this is

jeopardized your chances of going on the

show and I don't come from a family

where we had much so going back to

Plymouth and telling everyone you know

like all my friends oh he's going to

London and going back and saying like

they've just called me and told me I'm

not on the show was was devastating for

a long time lots of tears I felt like a

disappointment of that phase in my life

um and several times subsequently but

um I I think I've always been somewhat

optimistic going into situations

I generally feel like I've got nothing

to lose

um

[Music]

and I think maybe that's a bit of a

privilege to be honest I think mindset

privilege is a real thing just like

perspective privilege something we don't

talk about enough and

um had I been in an early situation

where someone was continually

telling me the things that I was were

doing were wrong or not good enough or

whatever I can quite easily see how I

would anticipate that feedback going

into anything where

um feedback was going to be given

and it's actually pretty remarkable I

mean

you know because those early experiences

you would assume would smash someone's

like self-esteem pretty severely and and

make them kind of retreat into safe

places one of the safest places is where

we don't get feedback and someone

doesn't shout at us or you know but that

that first this is your first audition

right Game of Thrones yeah or one of I I

had an audition before that which I also

was very excited about and then didn't

get so that was like my first like okay

you know professional rejection but

you're still putting yourself out there

in situations where you could be

rejected yeah definitely and I think it

was because I the only time that I

really felt that joy that I saw in other

people was when I was like dancing or

performing and there was this feeling

that I would get that I was like this is

like

I feel like human you know

um and so I was like I've just got to do

anything I can to like do this forever

and so from a very young age I was like

I want to go to Stage school and I want

to

yeah I'm happy to leave everything and

go and do that and

um yeah so I I really every opportunity

was like

um yeah I guess that little part that

you said like I've got nothing to lose

it was like yeah

on the other side of this could be

absolutely everything so I I have to do

it

I read this book I say red I watched the

summary on YouTube

but I'll just say it sounds more

impressive I read this book called The

Body holds the score then if you ever

heard of it and one of the most

fascinating things about it is it talks

about how acting and moving the body in

like yoga have been proven to be the

best forms of um uh antidepressant like

without you know taking ssris or

anything they've been proven to and I

remember thinking acting is a great

antidepressant how is that possible but

what you're saying now Rings it talks

about how it kind of disassociates from

Identity when we Act

um and so what you're saying now seems

to

validate what I read I'd love to read

that because that's like exactly what I

instinctively like discovered

uh like it just happened and I thought

ah like this is what I'm supposed to do

um have you ever figured out why why

acting was a because I I say the word

escapism but it why it was so liberating

for you is it because is it escapism is

it because it disassociates you from

your own identity is it because you can

create this new

there's like two parts of it it was like

how I felt

like within my body like everything

floated away and like the way that it

felt to move my body or the way that it

felt to like contort my voice or like

whatever it just like like that feeling

when you're like can't stop laughing it

was just like

incredible and then there was the way

that it made other people feel and

I guess like with with acting with

dancing it was like it was very it was

very much about the way that it felt and

not necessarily the way that it looked

or like how other people would

experience it but with acting it's like

you get that sort of two-way thing and I

also saw the joy that it would bring

other people and like

I guess like you don't you're like not

disappointing you're like making someone

laugh or you're making someone happy or

you're like and that was like you know

fun and new

yeah I was gonna say Game of Thrones was

a Smash Hit but it feels like a slight

understatement

I feel like smash it is let's yeah it

it huge the fame piece

I've had a smidge of Fame like seven

people know who I am right and sometimes

it can be a little bit difficult so I

can't even you know I can't even imagine

especially with the the sort of

confounding factors of your age

trying to figure out who you are

becoming famous for being a character on

a huge show yeah um

being in your sort of adolescent years

all of these things all at the same time

when you look back and you know you and

you remember you're saying about how

people were like forecasting your

downfall because of all those factors

yeah yeah

that actually the strangest thing about

it

the hardest thing I think was

like needing to articulate

who I was and what I loved the things

that I didn't like and what I had an

opinion on and what like you know

um yeah that I remember at the time

being like oh gosh I really don't know

anything about anything I really need to

know these things I need to you know

and then like you know years later you

go like oh I said that my favorite film

was this and like that's not true and

it's like you don't need to know any of

that stuff no like it's all

um it's all just like a journey right

it's all like there's never like an end

um what advice would you give that

person 13 year old

amazing to be honest with you like I

wish that I'd have just um like trolled

it all a bit more

and like whatever I like

instead of really digging deep and going

oh what is the real just like whatever

you feel that day that's okay and it can

change the next day because that is just

like life

you don't have to be beholden to

anything that you've said or done you

can let it all go and like rip up the

rule book because I hated London moved

back to Manchester and went to New York

and you go actually I'm gonna go back to

London like this is what I'm gonna do

now and it's not going to be like

something that you're like oh I wish I

hadn't done this like you're like no

this is this is what I want now and

that's like

that's just sort of the way it is so I

kind of wish that I'd just like you know

not just like tortured myself to know

like what is the real answer to these

like silly fun questions

um and then been like oh no I've like

portrayed myself all wrong this is not

who I am because it's just it's like

it's like water

would you would you change the timing of

the events that happened in your life if

you if you could

like acting when I was super young

um

the only thing I really feel like we

didn't have a lot growing up but like

I've I've never

you grew up on a continent in a council

house

and

like you know have always had like a

awareness of how hard my mum worked like

raising us giving us everything that you

know she did putting food on the table

um you know but that kind of I I never

I remember like when I was sort of like

18 and a lot of my friends started going

to UNI getting jobs whatever I remember

like there was like I was like I never

even though I know what that struggle

was like growing up like I've never like

struggled to get a job or

um struggle to make rent or anything

like that and I think

not that I would change that of course

like I'm so fortunate but I guess like I

I never want to I never

want to lose sight of like the

perspective of like just how fortunate

that I've been and like just how tone

deaf it is for me to believe that I like

would understand what it's like to

you know to struggle to make rent and

want to be a creative person and not

know whether to get like a sensible job

or to like because I don't know what

that struggle is like at all

um

so yeah I don't know that like I I

sometimes

worry that I'm like alienated in in some

ways because it will happen when I was

so young and like literally from the age

of 12 I've been like sat for life and

that's like very different to how I was

like before that age

is there a mixture of emotions

surrounding that like being set for life

at 12

um as you grow now I've sat here with a

couple of guests who come from like a

council a council estate or grew up in

in very difficult situations and they

often express this kind of I remember

Jack commit doing it expressed this kind

of almost

guilt's a bit of an interesting word but

like why did I I remember Jack saying to

me I can make thousands and thousands of

pounds from just making YouTube videos

and I watched my dad not make the same

amount of money in like a year or

whatever and I could just make it from

one YouTube video and he would go back

and feel he'd meet someone I remember

him saying he met someone in a pub that

was like a cancer doctor

and he's making more than them just sat

at home he anyone who expresses his kind

of like

I don't know guilt or Injustice have you

ever felt that

um definitely like

um

just yeah real like the guilt around

like

allowing yourself to have nice things or

do nice things because you're like able

to

like I felt like when I was a kid

everything stopped happening and all my

problems were going to go away and then

like all my problems didn't go away and

then I was sat for life when I was 12

and I thought all my problems gonna go

away and I was like well this doesn't

it's not like that unless all of my

friends and family are that way too

because like how are we all supposed to

like be okay if the only one person is

okay

and

you know you give people what you can

but you don't see the the pain take that

take the pain away for another person

doesn't take the pain away for yourself

like

and then you realize that like actually

life is something else entirely and like

the biggest problem that a lot of people

face is

making money

and like I'm making enough money to live

and like

support their family

but being able to do those things

isn't in it like the only thing that

like makes you happy like when you take

that problem away

there's sometimes still a very hard

discussion that you have to have with

yourself where it's

like a yeah like a fundamental chat

where you have to

tell yourself that

well I don't know there's a lot of

things

I don't want to take away from the fact

that like having money enables you to

like even be able to comprehend or like

another set of problems yeah yeah like I

know that that in itself is like an

incredibly privileged position to be in

um

uh

but like money won't take the pain away

it will take like the stacking bills or

you know

um or the fear of like losing a house

you know

um it doesn't undo trauma you can't you

can't buy you know

yeah yeah yeah yeah even if you can keep

the heat on and the electricity and feed

yourself there's still there's stuff for

many people another level of trauma

which um money can't seem to solve for

directly

um the

the post game of thr you know I I

remember sitting here with some one of

the guys from One Direction Liam Payne

and um he talked about how

post One Direction you he has this

identity which is he's a part of a boy

band and then leaving that it can be

quite Troublesome psychologically who

and I think he talked about the same

thing which is like who am I where do I

belong how do I then go and ident like

find out who that person is and start

creating for that and not just being

this this character this you know member

of a boy band that I've that the world

knows before did you ever feel that post

um Game of Thrones

yeah in a way but but I felt like I had

got to a point already within being in

the show that I was like oh I feel like

I'm

like cosplaying as this like person I've

created and I don't think that this

really is who I am

so sort of leaving the show me that I

could leave that as well

um

you know I kind of like wanted to like

say the right thing and do the right

thing and like act like I had everything

figured out and like be a good role

model and you know

and which is all very good things to

want but it's like it was it wasn't like

very authentic it was like just like

trying to be liked I guess right and

then you're like oh I actually you know

I don't want to do things that make

people like happy because like I wanted

things to make me happy and like I want

to you know represent myself the way

that makes me feel most comfortable

um and not like just the way that's most

like palatable or like whatever

and so I I already got to the point

where I was like oh this isn't really me

and I'm like desperate for something to

just like drastically change so as I can

like cut from that and and that's sort

of what happened when the show ended

then also sort of sped up by the

pandemic and being like ins like

solitary

um

so I was kind of like very ready for

that and it wasn't like oh who am I I

was kind of like oh who could I be you

know 21 21 22 years old

how are those years for you so this is

like around the time the show is

concluding yeah included when you're 22.

yes when it came out yeah

um I just didn't really go out a lot and

I

I just felt quite

I just I don't know it was just like it

was like the most successful it was ever

going to be and it was like most people

would like recognize you on the street

and

and like I had just got so like

rehearsed at like oh thank you that's so

nice and I just like everything I said

and felt and did it was just like oh

none of this is it's like

um

I just I felt like very going through

the motions of Life uh it was like yeah

acting again yeah yeah yeah yeah

um

it wasn't

the like the the hardest like most awful

and traumatic like oh it was like

terrible it wasn't it was fine but I

just like I knew that something better

was coming at that age they're 20 years

old how do you feel about yourself

oh I didn't really have a very like good

opinion of like myself and my self-image

it's I forget that I really didn't like

myself that much

um

I don't know I just I just told myself

that I

was like

awful and disgusting and

like unattractive and unkind and

like just like not a a good person and

like unlikable I just told myself that

like every single day and so in ways I

sort of became like that because

um you just like beat yourself into like

a mess you know mind is quite powerful

in that way yeah really powerful mm-hmm

Fern talks to me about this a lot I know

you did have podcasts right yeah yeah I

listened to her chatting about this on

your podcast yeah yeah

do you know the origin of those of those

of that self story like where where it

originates from obviously you have a a

thread that most people don't have which

is the world is giving feedback on you

every day now because you're in the

press and you're a young woman and we

know what that can be a pretty vicious

thing but it do you know the origin of

those self stories I feel like I've I've

felt self-conscious like even before all

of that so it definitely before like

Fame and so it definitely was enhanced

by that but I think it came a lot

earlier

um

and

I'm actually still trying to figure this

out like at the moment with my therapist

we're trying to really Trace that back

and a lot of this like has come a lot of

the discovery has come through

meditation I've been doing a lot of

Transcendental Meditation and like

there's something about going into that

state that like brings up like a little

ticket and I go ah like that's but but I

haven't quite figured out the answer to

this one yet I'll wear it like initially

stems from but I've definitely felt like

embarrassed of myself or ashamed or like

you know thought oh like I'd be playing

at a kid's house and thinking like their

parent thinks that I'm like awful I'm

like the child that all parents don't

want their kids to hang out with like

I've just felt this way about myself and

I was like

you know I wasn't trying to get them to

do like naughty things or anything I

just was like a kid that was just like

but I thought you know I'm I'm like

like I'd go to someone's house and I'd

like my shoes and like maybe they're not

in the right place and I haven't put my

bag in there and this parent is gonna

like not like me or like whatever I I

like felt that like

like self-awareness to that degree where

I've like critiqued and like

beat myself up like since I was very

very small

yeah I don't really know I don't know

where it comes from yet Elena well the

question I I naturally ask is when when

was the first time someone

told you those I mean even the example

of like oh God if I put my shoes in the

wrong place well you know what happens

if they're in in the wrong place and

what's the consequence of my shoes being

in the wrong place because Me growing up

with my shoes were in the wrong place

there's not really a consequence for

that no you know yeah

I don't know

well I have some theories on it

um

but I don't know it can it doesn't

concern just me so I don't know yeah

yeah just like I I think that I've like

um I've witnessed

uh like people just feeling like just

them existing in one spot is like them

just taking up too much room in this

world and I think that I've like just

taken on a piece of that

um where like just living and breathing

like you're too much and like you're

irritating so

but it's not true and if anyone ever

feels like that it's not true

because we can know these things are

objectively not true but it just this is

the thing that really fascinates me is

like how can we have how can we in one

on on one hand know that something is

not true yes and seemingly we're not

able to

completely eradicate that story because

that you know I I used to think

definitely used to believe before doing

this podcast that these stories we

believe there's evidence we have whether

it's wrong true or false about ourselves

I used to believe that there was some

way of just like

erasing it and you just you do this you

do this you tap your head you wiggle

your stomach like that and then it's

gone to therapy twice you do this spin

around and it's gone but no matter like

I don't think I've ever met a guest on

this podcast that has gone through some

kind of traumatic early experience in

their life and has ever erased it ever

people will say they've you know they've

built

new evidence which counteracts it so

that the New Evidence makes the

decisions in their life but it's still

there and traumatic events can make it

flare up

I'm one of like I consider myself to be

one of those people where

I've got to be very aware of of my my

triggers because you know they might

take over the control room once in a

while um

and start calling me shots so

I I feel like

um

I feel like just like experiencing it

all in the moment

is interesting and like not sort of like

predicting that there's like an end to

it

but you go like huh I have been in this

situation before and like last time I

wasn't aware of these triggers and now I

see exactly what's what wants to happen

and I'm not gonna do it

and like there's the piece of your brain

that's like actively making those

decisions and going but then there's the

like

I don't know Consciousness or like you

know the spirit that then observes it

and goes huh

like

what happens next like you're playing a

board game right and like something

happens and then like you're sort of

above it and you go where will this go

next

and and every time that your brain

doesn't manage to do that it's not like

going straight back to that place that

point even though like that's the way

your body's reacting it's like you're

still at this point in the Journey of

life and this is how you're experiencing

it in this moment and like it's not like

oh you failed at like healing because

like there's no end to it it's just

you know in this moment what can you

what can you can what can you learn your

brain has gone back there even though

like previously you've managed to avoid

this or you've managed to sort of like

avoid a trigger or like you know rewire

something but it hasn't this time so

it's like what can we learn from looking

at it this time how do I see it

differently to a time when I would have

like done this before

and it just it keeps going like every

minute is like an opportunity to like

see

where it will go next

um

and it will never be erased because like

it's a vital part of who you are and

like without it like you're you would be

in an entirely different person it's

like what is that film

um Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind

he like gets his relationship removed

from his brain basically wait yeah I

haven't no but yeah I've heard about

this thing called the Eraser test which

they do on people which sounds exactly

the same yeah

um

it's important it it gives you it it

gives you you know all of the tools to

make decisions in your life

um if I could give you an eraser

um

would you use it not a single piece

why

because

I feel I think that there's a point in

everyone's life where

they

experience firsthand that life is

extremely unfair

and it can happen at any point

and it's unavoidable I think well I

don't know Melissa maybe isn't

in a few years I might have a different

answer to this question

but

the things I experienced when I was a

child no person should ever experience

at any point in their life

but

it's taught me so much

and

I feel this like

com complex like

a deep emote like these complex Deep

Emotions

um

that are ultimately what I use every

single day as an actor

and

um I can I can I can recall those things

and I'm

I don't know that

I'm grateful for that I'm grateful to

understand

the

deepest pain

and fear and also like the most

liberating joy and freedom

and like maybe you don't have to go

through those awful awful things to feel

that but I did and

you know this

spectrum of emotions that are like

within me

I feel like incredibly

fortunate

for

because I think that that is something

that's different about me

so you you go through that phase after

being 20 you go through quite um

significant what's the word

self-disparaging self-hate

um as I've heard you describe it

you find it hard to to think or say nice

things about yourself

have you overcome that

because when you did that interview with

Lewis you were talking as if it was in

the past yeah I desperately wanted it to

be and I still do I think that

um I've got like a lot better at it

um but you know whenever

whenever

you know I sort of

fall back into

pain or whatever

it always comes back to like this

fundamental feeling that like I'm just

not worth like

any of it like I'm just like not worthy

of like

you know

and that's like

it's like it's hot it's

it's hard to combat that when you're

like well but I'm really really talking

to myself differently and I'm really

trying to like put up boundaries and I'm

trying to really respect myself and like

do you know

um

treat myself with some respect and then

you just like still get to this point

where you're like ah

so that's like difficult and like that

is something that I struggle with and I

have like you know

periods of a long time well that doesn't

happen and then you know periods where

it comes back again

um

but yeah just like keep combating it and

telling myself that it's not true and

that I am like

I'm worthy of

everything in life of of

whatever I want from life

has has

um has anything helped

truly not like you know we say oh this

helped uh here's five tips to help you

[ __ ] [ __ ] we write in our books

and stuff but has anything truly helped

to advance that feeling of worthiness

yeah I

meditation and uh spirituality which are

two things I didn't have a relationship

with for my whole life up until

um 2021

so yeah five minutes ago five minutes

ago yeah

so just last year

um

everything everything really changed

after that point I

you did mushrooms didn't you no

it was it was awesome

Transcendental Meditation

um

uh and and then like a couple of like

very

like surreal life-changing spiritual

experiences just like in day-to-day life

like not high or anything

um that I just like couldn't ignore and

I felt like oh I'm like I'm not alone

like

you know like there's something else

um even on like the hardest days like

there's something here that's like

gonna be there like gonna you know

take care of me

um yeah

and so that's like

easier to then just like keep going you

know

when you were 22 you talked about

um previously having

issues with substance abuse

uh yeah well yeah did you talk about

that or have I just inferred that from

you use the word substance I mean I I

feel like I spoke about this a little

bit on Louis yeah yeah

but like

I don't want to undermine it but

I guess

whom I say like what normal teenagers do

and what normal teenagers don't do

um but like you know I

like party like took a lot of party

drugs and like partied when I was like a

teenager

um and

I was in the position where like I could

buy more but I didn't really do that

you know to a terrible degree

I yeah yeah and but but it was like

definitely something that I was like I

need to stop doing this if I want to

like feel happiness

um

because that's the slippery slope

especially things like very accessible

things like alcohol even yeah you know

I've had people very close to me that

have have become alcoholics because of

you know trauma they've been through and

stuff like that and I do do you drink

now what's your relationship like

without alcohol and stuff no not really

I mean I I don't I'm not like sober

um but I don't I don't really drink like

in the house or like on a weeknight type

thing it's usually like with dinner or

like you know a gig or with friends or

yeah

but yeah a lot of that is like quite um

was quite a welcome like

release I guess it wasn't like something

that I

you're so busy as well I struggled with

if you're filming like 250

filming days per season or per year yeah

I mean the whole production yeah okay

but yeah yeah exactly it was it was it

was like hot it was you know very busy

schedule a lot of sleep needed to do to

get through there I had a few words to

say about one of my sponsors on this

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start recording we talked a bit about

Reuben yeah

your voice changed when I mentioned Ruby

yeah yeah and you're you're wearing a

shirt that he a t-shirt that he designed

yes created yeah

inspired by these artists called

Jean-Claude and Christo it's dope my

husband and wife who wrapped a bunch of

iconic landmarks and buildings in fabric

so cool yeah it's quite cool it's very

me so

um when I'm not wearing all black to try

and be uh stew Economist on this podcast

um what is how is how is

how has it been going through trying to

figure out romantic love

that's a that was a very difficult thing

for me as I talked about earlier but

how's it been for you what's that

Journey been like

um I think that I I definitely like

resonated when you spoke about

um

like rejecting a lot of like

relationships friendships or whatever

because it's like

cringe or like not real or like whatever

I I feel like I definitely spent a lot

of time doing that and I never really

confronted

um

the the part of myself that

um

I know it was like desperate to love and

be loved but I didn't really know how I

didn't really know what that looked like

or whatever

um

I don't really know how deep to go with

this

I never like had relationships where I

was like mistreated

um but that was mostly because like my

trauma response was like whenever there

was like any hint of like

I don't know conflict I was like I'm out

like

no I don't I seen this one before and

I'm not gonna be Hoodwinked by this but

like the truth is is like they were just

like nice people and I just ran away

like you know and

and cut off like whatever emotions were

there and just like Marie sorry like

it's not really gonna work type thing

um and then

you know with confronted with someone

like Reuben who

um

stop

[Laughter]

um I think that I I met someone who

um whenever I would start doing that and

start going like oh

they he like saw it within me and was

like you see what you're doing like

you're you're like trying to

sabotage yourself again and like you can

do that like I'm not gonna stop you

yeah

that was the first time that like

someone was patient enough

you know even though you're really

trying to push them away

to be like

that's fine like I'm not trying to like

tell you not to but like just observe

what is happening right now and like

you can sleep on it fine like you can

sleep on it for a month if you want to

fine like whatever

and it was the first time that

yeah

I

I realized this pattern that I hadn't

been able to capture like catch before

and um yeah it's been incredible it's

been like four years now and we live

together and

um

I've like never never knew that like

peace and joy and like happiness and

like

like coexisting with another person

could like be this way I never saw this

in my life and like it's just all new

and like

yeah all beautiful

so interesting how sometimes it takes a

certain person to like get over that

wall

you know and it's funny because I feel

the exact same way we try and stop

people getting over the wall because it

feels like self-defense it's ultimately

self-sabotaged but we we try and prevent

them climbing the wall but then if that

person can get in they can go about

writing a new set of evidence you know

we talked about evidence if that wall is

essentially evidence it's like it's it's

a it's a shield built on faulty evidence

from a from another experience if they

get over it they can help us go on the

Journey of making new evidence but it's

it's very difficult to get over and then

eventually something they do can just

back get inside that that last line of

defense and it's good when they do right

because

you can learn how wrong you were about

so many things you believed um

and then you go like wow every single

thing that I've

just like Define myself as like

it can all be

different

and like that's

like real freedom I I think

like yeah just one of those little

pieces

were

yeah everything you

thought you knew about the world just

like

changes you can then be like what else

am I wrong about or like what else

not like even right or wrong it's like

what other ways can I

like experience this like what are the

how else

can

um

yeah like what new sort of like

possibilities are there

for like who I am and what I'm gonna do

who are you

and what are you gonna do

[Laughter]

um I am

a

um

I'm like a kind and sensitive

person and

I

want

uh

and I want to like

I want to like I want other people to

feel happy

like I want to I can't like bring like

make people happy but like I want to

cons I like I'm considerate of like

people around me and like how they might

be feeling or whatever why is that

difficult to say I don't know

I don't know

I don't know if I had to like really

think about it maybe it's like

like um if I if I if that's like really

who I am at my core which like I I

really feel like I'm speaking from that

there's pain there because

why was I made to like feel like I was

such a monster you know

yeah

it's painful because I think like if I

take away all of the things that I

project and like oh like I'm someone who

like speaks their mind and like I don't

care what you think and if I like take

all of that away and I'm like who am I

really

and I actually just like

you know

like someone who's quite sensitive and

like wants to make you know want wants

to be considerate of the people around

them

like why why do you just like keep

putting things in front of you that are

going to stop you from just like being

that when who you truly are isn't a bad

thing like

those aren't bad qualities to have as a

person so why like why

you know

why am I so ashamed of that or like

whatever you know

like why yeah why why am I tripping

myself up to like not be that maybe

because like once that wasn't good

enough right and I'm telling myself like

you know that's not good enough

it seems like it makes sense as an

explanation

yeah I was thinking as you're saying I

was thinking well you know if you've if

at one point you had to be someone else

or you had to be you had to meet

expectations in order to be told that

you were

good enough expectations that were

unmutable you might spend your life

dancing from one expectation to another

just trying to please

the world's expectations and I know you

know now because I've heard you talk

about it that expectations are really

trying to meet social expectations

anyway really are the

slippery slope isn't quite the word but

but it is quite I think slippery

slippers maybe a good phrase to use

because

it's all down from there isn't it once

you start playing that game

it's the self-destructive spiral down to

[Music]

a place that's hard to climb out of

like maybe I don't value just like

like just kindness and can sit like cons

uh consideration in other people

I'm just spitballing on this by the way

yeah so am I yeah what makes you think

you're invaluate other people well

just because I I have this other sort of

theory that I've been like steering for

a while where it's like you

you hate them like you you despise the

most like what you are

or like you're you're the you reject the

most

like

who you are inside that would make sense

if who you were was rejected right

if you were told that who you were is

not a good person and that is a belief

that you have then if you see that in

other people you think well that's not a

good person

because yeah

yeah

I'm just a bit boiling as well but um

you said that you

kindness was a quality that you um in

other people either didn't you thought

you weren't didn't like it yeah maybe

it's something I don't that like value

enough I don't like if I don't think

it's I'm work like well you were told

not to Value right directions in a sense

because you were that and it was real

negatively reinforced yeah

yeah I'm just guessing but yeah

I guess we both of them yeah what what

is success to you if you are if you know

if you look back in 10 years from now

and say I was successful over those last

10 years what would that be

well there's like a lot of like tangible

things that I want to do with my career

um no no no right okay so yeah just like

exactly you

know yeah but like I mean I guess

success would be like

like knowing in my soul that like I just

I deserve any of any of those things or

like

like just uh

um

feeling adequate what is success

well I've I've already said that I don't

feel like it's a destination right

it's like a happening every second

it's not like it can't look I can't

stand on the other side of success and

look back and be like what a look at

that moment it's like what you look back

on it's every like every time you're at

a Crossroads or a decision and like how

what did you choose to do that's all you

can control is like what's happening

right now

like are you going to choose

this path or this path like are you

going to behave one way or another way

are you going to do the things that you

don't like about yourself and continue

to do them or are you gonna like do it

differently and you're gonna like talk

about yourself in a different way like

and that's like it's every second and

and there's no other side to it

um I don't know maybe Enlightenment if

you

if you believe that um

but it's about the

the journey with you're 35 years old you

sat here again yeah and you go

those last 10 years yeah they were a

good 10 years yeah

which I'm sure you will say but if we

sat here you're 35 years old I'm like

I'm dead by then I'm like 75 or

something

I've just turned 30 and I'm like living

a crisis I'll be 40. so

um I love all my 40 year old listeners

thank you subscribe

um but you're 35

um I'm sat here and I'm 40. we're

looking back on the last 10 years and

we're going yeah that was really really

a great 10 years what would have had to

have have happened in your estimation

for that to be true

um

I guess like

um like control oh no control that

sounds like

like I I

um

I guess it would be like looking back at

all of the moments and

you know seeing seeing the the conscious

decisions that were made rather than

just like

acting on impulse right

I guess success would be like that was a

point that was really challenging and

like I feel really proud that I didn't

slip back into that old habit or I

didn't like

you know

I I didn't like just go completely

selfish and think like oh my problems

are the worst in the world like I just

think had a bit of perspective and I

like picked myself up and I I kept going

like I guess that's like I would look

back on those moments and feel like

those decisions like would define those

ten years and I'd be like proud like

proud of of that

um

yeah do you have a do you have a do you

have a sense of mission about you at all

Mission definitely

I mean

the the freedom and

like the The Joy the

I feel through performing

um and I'm I like it's just it's changed