What organization in the world is more

corrupt than the Donald Trump White

House? The answer is boing, FIFA.

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York

Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast

Network. I'm Carara Swisser. Scott is

off today, so I brought in the one and

only Anthony Scaramucci, the mooch,

podcaster, founder of Skybridge Capital,

and author of the upcoming book, which

is getting a lot of kudos, All the Wrong

Moves. And I think I gave you a blurb,

Anthony, didn't

>> I got a blurb out of Hey, listen.

>> I never give blurbs. You know that.

>> I got to I got to, you know, I had to

use the crowbar, ladies and gentlemen,

to get the I pivoted on pivot. I had to

use the crowbar to get the blurb out of

her, but it worked.

>> All right, but so be honest with me. You

were at Taylor Swift wedding, were you?

>> Well, I'll be really honest with you and

tell you I would have liked to have been

invited to Taylor Swift's wedding

because when you look up in the

dictionary named dropping and

starfucking, there's a picture of me.

>> But alas, I was not invited to her

wedding. It

>> it made no sense the invitations. I

mean, I got the dancers and everybody

else like her all her friends and her

cousins and everything, but the

celebrities were just odd. It was so

they were some of them were obvious like

you know Bradley Cooper and those kind

of people but an you know like Adam

Sandler being the the the officient was

interesting. It was such a it was such a

dog's breakfast of celebrities. It was

fascinating. What do you think?

>> Well, what I love about it is it was

original and it was true to whatever

they wanted to do. You know, at the end

of the day, it's your wedding. Have at

it.

>> Yeah.

>> And they they went crazy. I mean, I one

time got married with a lot of fanfare

in a Roman Catholic church. The second

time I got married, dear and I got

married in our living room. So, I mean,

you know, you it's a it's a time in

their lives. They're both first time

married. I wish them nothing but great

success with their their marriage. But,

you know what? If you don't mind, I'm

going to give them a shout out because

they did list 20 charities and I'm on

the board of City Harvest, which is one

of the largest food banks in the

country, if not the largest, and they

gave a million dollars to City Harvest.

So, uh, God bless them for doing that

because we have a lot of food insecure

people in our great city car.

>> Yeah. Yeah. They gave a bunch Dolly

Parton. They gave a bunch to all these

like amazing They gave $26 million,

which is 13 times too, if you're a

Taylor Swift person. Um, which is her

favorite number. But it was really

interesting that it what was interesting

is how they handled it. I was going to

compare it to the Bezos wedding. I

wanted to be fair, but for some reason

that one felt awful and this one cracked

me up. And I don't know why the

difference because it was obviously an

over-the-top wedding. Um it was directly

in the middle of New York City which I

loved. And of course they did it to

protect them at Matt You've been to

Madison Square Garden a hundred times,

right? Presumably.

>> Yeah, I know. Madison I consider Madison

Square Garden one of my homes. I'm a

Nick and a Ranger fan. But I I think I

think the difference was the the Bezos

wedding was trying to be the Venice Film

Festival but for the Bezos family. And

this was like, hey, we're corny people

and we're going to have a little bit of

a cornball situation go on and we're

going to do whatever we want, but oh, by

the way, we're good people. We're going

to write some big checks to charity. So,

hey, listen, you know, I'm I'm a c I'm

all about if Jeff Bezos and his wife

Laura Buren Bezos, if they want to spend

money like that, God bless. I have no

problem with I know other people get

very upset with it. My attitude is, you

know, you make the money, spend the

money, no problem. And people forget how

many jobs are tied to events like this.

You know, you've got porters and waiters

and you've got people in the hotels and

and to me I like people spending their

money because it goes into the system

and it takes care of a lot of

>> experience right now. What's really it

was to me was interesting is one is

theirs was rather private even though it

was in the middle of New York City. one

there weren't you haven't seen pictures

very many you've seen very few pictures

come out and the ones that are out are

just people hey I'm going to this

wedding and sort of bragging about which

I'm fine with um the Bezos one was so

performative like waving from the docks

and the outfits and everything else and

I think that was one of the differences

I I suspect there's going to be a movie

of the wedding I sus I suspect that's

coming for all of us

>> let me ask Carara Swisser a question

though would you have promoted that you

were going to the wedding

>> would you have had like a selfie a

swisher like selfie.

>> I had would have to cuz it was strange.

>> I'm totally shameless. I would have been

promoting it. I would have had I maybe

even gotten a drone for myself like

follow me walking cuz I'm a revoling

person.

>> Yeah, I think they wanted that. I think

they wanted that. And I did like that

the even the celebrities were like

showing off, right? Like I was there.

Oh, by the way, I was there. And showing

off their dresses and it was a little

bit like the Met Gala. What was

fascinating is very little leaked and it

seemed adorable. It just seemed I you

know I like everything Taylor Swift and

Scott doesn't but I felt like now I'm

thrilled for you here for you can

because you probably like her but but I

do think that charitable giving

>> not to like I mean let me again I like

success stories you know God bless her.

What's not to like? All the girl every

kid likes her. God bless you know.

>> And by the way he's won you know how

many Super Bowls did the kid win? He won

two Super Bowl. Three. Three. Okay there

you go. Come on. I know they're a very

handsome guy.

>> Although I will say this about him and

he can respond to me. Uh he can direct

message me on Twitter, probably be mad

at me. He has the thinnest arms and the

least amount of biceps of any tight end.

>> He's a hunk.

>> Take a look at his arms. Okay, I'm just

tell this kid is very slender for a

tight end, which made him, in my

opinion, faster, quicker, and a better

receiver. I don't see him as a blocking

tight end. Okay. He's almost like a

third receiver for Mahomes, which was

part of the part of the warfare there

and part of the offensive success story.

>> Yeah, I guess I don't know what you're

talking about. He looks handsome to me

and I'm a lesbian. I think he's hot. Um

uh I think

>> Am I allowed to say that I'm also a

lesbian or you may say that if you'd

like, but um anyway, I was happy for New

York to do it and it actually was in

juxtaposition of something happening

down in Washington which was just a

disaster. But first, let let me start

first since we're talking about sports.

President Trump's officially inserted

himself into the World Cup. This is

really bad. I even I know this is bad.

US soccer star Foleran Balagan is set to

play against Belgium after FIFA

overturned his one match suspension from

a controversial red card. Trump

personally called a FIFA President Giani

Infantino to push uh for a review of the

decision Trump posted on True Social

saying thank you for doing what was

right and reversing a great injustice.

As we tape on Monday, Belgium has been

granted the right to appeal the ruling.

So things may have changed by the time

you listen to this. I mean, why did he

do this? It seems like it's it's just

sort of Sully's thoughts. If you're ever

on Jeopardy, they don't answer the they

don't ask the questions like this, but

they say, "What organization in the

world is more corrupt than the Donald

Trump White House?" The answer is boing

FIFA.

>> Boing. Yes.

>> That that's the answer. So, so I mean,

so you know, it's like the two of them

got married and did something very

corruptive and delicious to the world's

most favorite sport. But, but to me, cuz

I want to channel Trump for you. So, get

the barf bags out, guys, cuz I want to

tell you exactly how he thinks. I am the

man. Everything is about me. Let's

insert ourselves. Where's the attention

this week? Oh my god, there's billions

of people watching the World Cup. I got

to get myself inserted into that.

>> Right. And Taylor, he tried to insert

himself into the Taylor Swift wedding.

You saw that we tried to do that.

>> He tried to do that cuz she hates him.

He hates her. Blah blah. But let let's

just roll. But hello, Buttlick. Howard.

Howard. Howard, are you there? Butlick.

Okay. Get some evidence together. Okay.

And then he calls Infantino, who we're

calling sick sickopantino.

>> And he says, "This is what I want done."

And he basically does it. and and

everyone's looking around scratching

their heads and saying, "Wow, this is

low for America, you know, because it

just makes us look crash." But to Trump,

he's patting himself on the back. You

know what he's saying? Nobody could have

done this other than me. This is like

another war that I solved. I need

another FIFA peace.

>> Look, FIFA is very corrupt. And I did a

whole show on this about the corruption

and the ticket sales and everything

else, but the games seem to be going

well, right? people seem to be enjoying

the people here from other countries.

You know, you had Cape Verde, you had

Mexico last night. Even I I'm paying

attention to this a little bit. Um but

but this sort of it creates does it

create a problem here if this guy gets

By the way, just for people who don't

know, this soccer star was was born in

the United States. His parents are from

London. So he's what he's the kind of

the birthright citizenship that Trump

rails against at the same time which I

think is kind of of course ironic. It's

not ironic. It's typical.

>> Well, yeah. I mean that's that's Trump.

You know, he doesn't even probably not

even aware of that. And so that's

another big irony of the whole thing.

But but just just remember it has to be

about him. Uh enough of me talking about

me. What do you think of me? And how can

I get myself inserted into every

situation? Even if it's controversial,

it sort of sullies the U US win if there

is one.

>> Yeah. You see that? Okay. So, now that's

the FIFA's position. They're like,

"Okay, the Americans are going to win

anyway. It'll mean more ratings." Uh,

but somebody somebody Look, that was

supposed to be done on the QT. And then

Trump can't help himself. He's got these

AI generated truth socials which are

incredibly revolting where the guy's

pulling out the Trump card on the ref

saying, "Yeah, you're trying to throw me

out, but I've got the Donald Trump Trump

card, so I'm back in." And so, you know

what what happens is it's just a turnoff

to people. And and I got to say this to

you, Karen, and I'd love to hear your

opinion on this. I thought the games

were going great for America. I thought

people were coming in very thought the

place was so hospitable. And I'd be

like, "All right, well, America's

finally getting a a slap on the back

from

>> That's cuz he was out of it. He wasn't

near it. That's why."

>> Exactly.

>> You know, and speaking of being near, I

mean, I think it'll just You're right.

If the Americans don't win, it hardly

matters, but which is probably what they

what Infantino was thinking. Um, he also

marked America's 250th birthday, which

is kind of a a dud by giving a speech.

It was essentially a MAGA rally on the

National Mall after storms delayed the

event. He honored veterans and

astronauts while also touting his own

record and pushing for the Save America

Act. He also focused on his latest

obsession, communism, saying commun

communism is a loser and it will always

be. The night before at Mount Rushmore,

where there was hail, a lot of weather

his way, which was interesting. He

called communist menace a greater threat

than Pearl Harbor and 9/11 argued

American identity under renewed attack.

I I thought communists were losing. And

speaking of threats to American

identity, hundreds of mass members of

the white nationalist group Patriot

Front marched through DC on the 4th

carrying Confederate flags and chanting

reclaim America. Those photos were kind

of bizarre to look at. They were on the

subway. talk a little bit about what was

happening and also you know that you

couldn't see the fireworks because there

were too many of them and too much smoke

and there's smoke all we all have been

advised to stay inside over the next day

or two in DC because of the heat and the

the particullet from the from the

fireworks which nobody could see very

easily. Um talk a little bit about this

communism thing. This is I hadn't heard

communism from him. So thoughts on

what's happening here?

>> Well, it's Mandani related. This is all

related to the electoral success that

the Democratic Socialists have had

recently. And this is also related to uh

the speech that uh the mayor of New York

gave from George Washington's desk,

which uh obviously was very polarizing

to some people. Uh my arch nemesis,

Steve Bannon, somebody I can't stand,

actually nailed it in my opinion. He

said, "Hey, you better pay attention to

Zora Mandani because yeah, he's a great

communicator. He's got a vision for

things. He understands

where people are and how upset they are

and especially

>> young people.

>> Exactly. And Trump's response is to

label everything with a broad bush that

it's communism, Carl. And I think that's

a that's a big danger because when you

when you do that, you're missing the

elements of what's got people upset. And

uh this isn't communism. He if you

listen to his speech I sort of felt like

it was Scandinavianism you know it was

it was northern Europe it wasn't

communism

>> you know and Trump's trying to label as

something that it isn't and he does that

very successfully a lot of

>> who is this successful I haven't thought

about communist since like the cold war

essentially

>> yeah so I don't I don't think it's going

to be successful because you remember

Zoron Mandani is not flatfooted you know

when you're calling Hillary Clinton

crooked or Joe Biden sleepy or Jeb Bush,

low energy. They're more like standard

politicians and they're a little

flatfooted. You know, this guy, in my

opinion, has made one mistake. I won't

name the billionaire, but when he docks

a billionaire in New York City with

social media, I thought that was bad. I

mean,

>> I agree. I said so.

>> You don't want to put people in harm's

way. You want to put a peer to tear tax

in and people can pay it, no problem.

But don't name the people because you're

going to get you're going to make

people, you know, in a dangerous

position. But to me, this kid has only

made one gaff and I'm I wasn't a

supporter of his. I think the city is a

lot cleaner. The city looks very safe to

me.

>> Taylor Swift got married there.

>> You said to me last week that New York

is back. New York is flourishing. Is

that not true?

>> Yeah, absolutely. When you go there,

it's it's hard to walk the streets. It's

so full and vibrant and exciting and

along with the Knicks, the Taylor Swift

thing, just there's a lot happening

there. But what what is the you know

having the the no white nationalists

show up again was sort of my I was like

oh my god them again in that in those

weird outfits they wear the blue shirts

and the khakis with the weird white mask

that they have to hide themselves cuz

they're not proud of who they are

presumably.

>> Yeah. Okay. But you see see what's going

on. Elon Musk said that this was a uh

false flag operation. This is hard left

people that are sending out these white

supremacists. and there was a photo of a

young African-American woman on the bus

with them and people saying, "Okay, that

photo was contrived." Okay, I don't

believe I don't believe any of that, by

the way. But I'm just I'm just saying to

me, they're doing that for publicity.

They're doing that for the shock and awe

effect. And unfortunately for this

country and perhaps most countries, we

do have racist [ __ ] in this country

and we do have white supremacists in

this country. Uh but unfortunately we

have somebody in the White House that

sort of blows a dog whistle for these

people as opposed to denouncing these

people or ignoring these people. He's

like, "Oh, that sounds like a lot of

fun. Can you guys bring the matches over

here? Let's light the door flame log for

the white supremacist bonfire." You

know, that's the stuff that I I really

can't see.

>> It's all around the Save America Act,

though. I mean, that's really the focus.

There's, you know, story after story of

him the desperation of either passing

this or pulling some emergency powers,

you know, declaring a national security

emergency around voting and everything

else. To me, that's where everything

funnels down to is this fear of

November.

>> Yeah. I mean, listen, I mean, that's the

goal, right? We got to get black and

brown people not to vote. And so, we're

going to get ICE agents out. We're going

to scare you. Uh, I've got to get this

uh legislation passed, the Save America

Act. Uh, and if we get that passed as

well, you know, hopefully you'll stay in

your house and we can organize as much

of the white vote as we possibly can to

win these elections. And so Trump said

something people should really listen

to. If I can get this thing passed, we

won't lose an election for the next 100

years. Did you hear him say that?

>> He said that. Pay attention. So now

thankfully Thun is American enough still

where he's blocking Trump and he's

stopping him. Uh but you know listen you

know what what comes next is the answer

car because I think I think we got

Trump. Uh I think the courts have

knocked him to the ground a notch. I

think he's age is getting him. I think

some of the podcasters have broken from

him. Some of the traditional Republicans

are just waiting him out. Okay. So I

think we got Trump. I'm worried about

the next lunatic that shows up with the

same message, you know.

>> Any thoughts on who that would be?

>> None of the current lunatics. You know,

they they don't they don't have the Riz

Carisser. It would have to be a young

lunatic that we don't know right now,

but when I look at

>> Tucker Carlson, I've never asked you

about Tucker Carlson.

>> How do you look at him?

>> You know, Tuck Tucker is a typical dweeb

in the high school. Like, I wasn't a

click guy in high school. My uncle owned

a motorcycle shop, so I did have a

leather jacket, but I was also the

captain of the football team. So, I was

like not into the whole click thing. But

Tucker would have been that kid that was

like a sneaky bully. And so, a sneaky

bully is no one's looking. I'm going to

poke Cara in the eye. Okay, no one's

looking. I'm going to do something

devious or pranksterish to somebody

that's weaker than me due to my

insecurities. Right? So Tucker wasn't

the outand-out bully because I mean you

saw that guy, you just walk off to him,

punch him in the face, and make him go

away. And so what Tucker does, he's like

a dodgeball bully. Okay, so hear me out.

You remember when you were in elementary

school, you were probably the you were

probably the smart kid in the back

lurking with the ball.

>> I was too small to hit. I was always the

last kid before to get hit.

>> And you were always waiting for the big

jock to hit the other jock and then you

snuck up and hit the big jock and you

weren't.

>> Correct. Thank you.

>> Okay. But Tucker is a dodgeball bully,

okay? He's been sneaking around bullying

and terrorizing people, okay, for his

adult life. And now he's got a very big

broad podcast that he can do this on. My

buddy Chris Cuomo, people should go look

at the tape. He took a karate chop to

Tucker's Adams appall as as he was

spousing his BS about Russia, okay? And

you know, and and Chris doesn't give a

[ __ ] just took him to the ground. And

so I say to myself, number one, is he on

the take from Russia? I don't know. So

I'm not going to say yes or no. But he

he uses Russian talking points when he

talks. He

>> does. Yeah.

>> No. Number two, what, you know, he's all

of a sudden anti-Israel. And we can

debate that. I'm not saying Israel's got

a great brand right now. I think they've

had a lot of mishaps. But you went from

pro-Israel hanging out with Huckabe to

now you're anti-Israel. And I'm like,

guy, what are you doing exactly? And you

know what he's doing? He's feeding the

ducks of his audience. Okay. So, he's a

dodgeball bully who feeds the ducks of

his audience. I I think the guy

>> give him a chance or not.

>> No. No, he's got no chance. And I think

he's a complete tool. Also,

if Trump is alive when he announces his

candidacy, Trump is going to send like

orange maned cruise missiles up to Maine

and and blow blow Trump, you know, blow

blow Tucker out of the water because One

thing about Trump, he knows the Achilles

heel of people like Tucker. So, so and

and and I predict Tucker won't run

>> because listen, that is that is a big

boy sport as you know. It's not

podcasting. He's not hanging around

>> waiting for your next massage. It's

like, okay, we got to get on the road.

And you can hate Donald Trump, but

Donald Trump is a grinder. I watched

him,

>> you know, 8 in the morning till

midnight. Let's grind this thing out.

Tucker doesn't strike me as that.

>> I see. Pass me the nail file. I'm about

to get a Manny Petty, Tucker Carlson,

the dodgeball.

>> Can I ask you one last question on this?

Um, so what's Trump's move? We got July,

August, everything's quiet. What does he

have? He doesn't have much time till the

midterms besides trying to stop the

election itself. What What does he do

now? How does he get attention? What is

What is he going to do?

>> We have more revulsion coming. And so on

July 19th, he'll be in the Meadowlands.

He'll be at the New Jersey New York

stadium handing the trophy to somebody

who has won the World Cup because

Infantino Sikafantino is going to let

him do that. So that's going to be a big

day for him. Lots of attention on him.

You'll have billions of people watching

him. He'll be very happy about that.

Right. Exactly. And he's he's announced

his griff to the public. Okay. So if you

ever thought that he hasn't learned from

the KGB, he has actually because what

does the KGB do? They spy out in the

open, right? Remember John Lar would

explain to you that the person shows up,

they look like a KGB spy, they act like

a KGB spy, so you don't think they're a

KGB spy, but guess what? They are one.

And so Trump is like, "Let me announce

to you my grift." Okay? And so here's

all the different things I'm doing. He

even put the $15,000

of Infantino tickets that were given to

him on his financial disclosure, the

FIFA tickets that were given to him. So

So what he's going to do is he knows he

doesn't give a [ __ ] about his party. He

doesn't care who wins the election as

long as he's not overly investigated.

He's going to pardon himself and his

family. He's going to try to make $10

billion

over the next two years.

>> All right. Well, that'll get us into So,

that's what he's working on.

>> That's what he's going to do. Yeah. He

He's about glory, self angerandisement,

and moola. Those are that's the holy

trinity inside his brain.

>> Okay. Well, we'll talk about that

because we're going to talk about

something that you know a lot about,

which is cryptocurrency. Okay, Anthony,

let's go on a quick break. We come back.

Millions of investors lost billions on

Trump's memecoin.

>> This is advertiser content from Harvey

AI. We have a choice over who we work

with and who we don't. Specifically, who

we allow to advertise and who we don't.

And for those of you who watch my

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I'm an AI optimist. I think it's going

to create more jobs than it destroys.

And I think our job as professionals is

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these tools. AI uh more than almost

anything I do in terms of what I could

point to for real economic leverage and

savings is 100% in the legal fields.

Harvey is the AI designed specifically

for legal work trusted by leading law

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right, so now I'm looking at their demo.

It plugs into tools that lawyers already

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the complaint, pulls the relevant terms,

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harvey.ai.

Anthony, we're back. Nearly 1 million

people who bought President Trump's

memecoin have lost a combined 3.8

billion. Guess where it went. At the

same time, Trump disclosed earnings of

$636 million from the memecoin. In 2025,

Trump profited whether the coin uh price

rose or fell, collecting fees every time

the token was traded, which he which is

called a vig, which he often uh prompted

his followers on True Social to do.

Meanwhile, Michael Sailor's strategy has

abandoned its famous never sell Bitcoin,

wasn't a holder anymore, um mantra. The

company is launching a $1.25 25 billion

monetization program to raise capital

with Bitcoin sales already has sold 216

million. Trump's disclosure, by the way,

showed active trading of strategy

shares. Um, where, you know, for people

who don't understand what was happening,

we talked about this last week, he made

several billion dollars largely related

to crypto, very small amount in real

estate, similar similar to what he

always makes in real estate essentially.

uh nothing more or less but there's a

lot of you know and of course the kids

have their own griffs going on and Jared

and Ivanka have their own grift so talk

about how we should be thinking about

crypto now and what happened here with

Trump

>> well I mean it's important to people to

understand how dramatic this griff was

he needs an academy award or a FIFA

World Cup trophy maybe FIFA will give

him the grifter prize of the you know we

gave you the the FIFA peace prize but

the griing has been so Good. Here's the

FIFA Grifter Prize because this is

unbelievable. Just to put it into

context for everybody, all of the

publicly traded crypto companies

combined made less than Donald Trump did

in crypto. Just so everybody knows, he

made more money than Coinbase, Kraken.

Put them all together. Kraken's not

public, but you get get my point. They

do disclose their financials. Uh, and

remember this, okay? Trump's disclosure

was 927

pages. Barack Obama, his ex his his was

eight pages. Okay. So, this guy filed a

phone book. He didn't file disclosure,

but but the crypto stuff is so bad. It

is so egregious. So many people lost

money and the differential of 3.8

billion losing and him making 800 is

just to me insidious. But I'm I'm going

to say this to you and I know you get

this. The Emirati royal family bought

$500 million stake in his company before

the inauguration. Right.

>> Okay. So, I don't know. You tell me. Uh,

that was just a Hey, that's a nice

gesture.

>> Hey, Cara, how you doing? You know,

there's a Cara Swisser. It looks like

it's from your longevity documentary

behind you. I'd like to buy that from

you for $500 million just because, you

know, you're a nice person, Cara. Is

that how the Emirati royal family

treated that situation?

>> Right.

>> So, so to me, it's again, I'm taking the

money. And by the way, you stupid crypto

bros, what did you think was going to

happen? Oh, you thought I was supporting

you? No, no, no. This Clarity Act, which

everybody would like to get passed, that

can't happen because my opposition

uh hates me and they're going to vote

against it to spite me. And oh, by the

way, that spits you. But haha, guess

what? I didn't care about you, right? I

didn't care about you.

>> What happens to the the cryp what what

is happening like what Sailor has done?

Obviously, he's been super aggressive

and you've been deep into crypto and

Bitcoin particularly where does this

hurt the Bitcoin business because it was

actually improving allegedly under Trump

with all these you know the regula

Gensler was gone everything else. Where

does this leave crypto now? Because it

then has this taint as as as the world

the World Cup has of Trump's finger

dirty fingers all over it.

>> Yeah. So, nobody likes me in the crypto

community for saying this, but I'm going

to continue to say this. Gary Gensler

was a pain in the ass to the industry.

But you know what Gary Gensler did? He

blocked a lot of the low lives and a lot

of the people, a lot of the scammers out

of the industry. Trump has opened up the

floodgates and became the scammer and

chief in the industry. So people said,

"Oh, this is going to be great for the

industry." It's not great for the

industry. You you would want the mama

bear. You would want propitious and

ordinary transparent crypto regulation

with a defense system against

scumbaggery. We didn't get that. So when

Trump announced that memecoin, Cara, I

was at the World Economic Forum with

Brian Armstrong on a panel and I said,

"This is going to be very bad for the

industry because this makes us look

terrible." And his opposition, there are

young Democrats that would probably

support the cryptocurrency industry that

are looking around saying, "I can't do

it now because of what Trump has done."

Uh, and so so to me, I think it's a I

think it's a big issue. You mentioned

sailor, so we might as well bring him

up. You know, Michael's got to be

careful because he's an absolutist and

he's an extremist. So, he said at a one

side of his mouth, I'm never selling my

Bitcoin. You should sell one of your

kidneys to buy and hold Bitcoin, but

he's got pressure on him and he's got a

in he's got a cash imbalance. And so,

guess what he's doing? He's starting to

sell his Bitcoin. Like, Michael's not

going to take advice from me. And I like

Michael, but I would say Michael, you

become part of the story. you go on your

yacht, sail off into Sicily somewhere,

stop tweeting about Bitcoin, get out of

the story making business. Because what

happens in a situation like this is like

a fighter squadron. Let's say we got

B17s about to strafe Berlin and one has

engine trouble and is lagging behind the

others in the squadron. Uh, what are the

meersmiths going to take out first?

They're going to take out that one and

this is Michael right now. So get out of

the story. I wouldn't sell any more

Bitcoin, by the way. Your job is to have

Bitcoin go back up, and you getting out

of the story will probably help that.

I'm long-term bullish on Bitcoin. I

think we're in the typical four-year

cycle where we've corrected 50%. We

could correct more, but I think the

long-term bias for Bitcoin is up. And uh

I think if you hold it for 5 years,

you're going to be well well situated.

>> Here you have Trump sort of dirtying up

the the industry in a ways. what needs

to happen from a bipartisan, how can it

return to a way where you don't have,

you know, too much regulation and at the

same time you zero out all the all the

scammers.

>> So I I I think there's only one thing

and that is time and demography. So I

think if you're above the age of 60 and

you're in the Democratic party, you hate

crypto. I think if you're below the age,

if you're in the 50 to 60, you're crypto

by curious, but you're like

cryptokeepic. If you're below the age of

50, you're generally like, okay, I get

this, and there should be an ecosystem

allowing us for tokenization and for

general improvements of the financial

services/fintech

community. And so I think he set the

industry back. I think it'll be three,

four, five years before we see the right

type of regulation. I want to be wrong.

You know, Cynthia Lumis, Tim Scott are

saying that the Clarity Act is going to

get passed if you go to the poly

markets.

>> Explain what the Clarity Act is.

>> Okay, so the Clarity Act in the most

simple elevator pitch is exactly that.

We're going to offer you clarity on

regulation associated with crypto. Where

is Bitcoin going to be regulated at the

CFTC or the SEC? Where are these other

coins going to be regulated? What's

going to be allowed in the industry? How

are we going to deal with stable coins?

Are they going to be able to pay

interest on their um the balances that

you put at a stable coin company? Uh

what will the banks be able to do? Will

will we charge the banks on their

balance sheet, which they would do right

now if I held my Bitcoin? I can't hold

it at JP Morgan, but if I was able to,

they they they hit them with an

overcharge on their capital account. But

let's say they could segment it out.

Will the money center banks eventually

be able to custodian

Bitcoin? And so why are we calling it

clarity? Because the pendulum has been

swinging back and forth between the

administrations. You get hard

left-leaning regulation from the SEC and

it swings back to hard right leaning

regulation. We were having regulation by

enforcement under Gensler. Now we're

having light touch regulation. This

would this would provide a clear signal

to Democrats and Republicans. Here are

the laws as legislated by the Congress

signed by the president. And so this is

the interpretation bandwidth you have

now as opposed to this, you know, this

bit this wider bandwidth.

>> It feels like grift again. That's what

it it has more of a nervousness around

it because the Trumps are around. Well,

well, well, it Let me explain why it

does, though. Because all Gillibrand and

these people are asking for is, okay, we

don't want the president's family to

steal another couple billion dollars of

of crypto. So, can we at least legislate

or create a rules-based system that's

ethically guided? And the White House

said, uh, no. Uh, we like when the

president steals. Scott Bent said that

the 2.4 four billion that he took is a

sign of US innovation is what he said in

an interview. This guy I mean you know I

mean you got to be kidding me. I mean

this is this is literally unbelievable.

>> This guy

>> it's like I mean but it's you know you

know what it is it's like a sock puppet

at this point. It's like that used to be

a person you know like Prince formerly

known as Prince that used to be a person

formerly known as Scott Bent. He's now a

sock puppet for Caroline Levid and

Donald Trump. Okay. And you're saying

that with a straight face in an

interview, guy. I mean, come on.

>> I know. I agree. So, uh, last small

thing. Uh, July 4th officially marked

the end of the Department of Government

Efficiency, better known as Doge. In a

post on X, the agency said, "While the

formal mission of Doge has come to an

end, the mission to eliminate waste,

fraud, and abuse will continue. Good

stewardship of taxpayer dollars and

accountable government are not temporary

initiatives." Researchers estimate

Doge's cuts to US aid and humanitarian

aid contribute to hundreds of thousands

of deaths worldwide. Jo claims it saved

taxpayers about $215 billion through

spending cuts. The original goal was 2

trillion. Many people feel it cost the

United States. Actually, one thing we

won't be getting is a final assessment

of what actually accomplished. Uh budget

director Russell Vote recently told

Congress, "We have no plans to publish a

closing Doge report." Of course not,

because if they did a good job, they

would tell you. Uh I think this was just

as it turned out as I said it would it

was a nothing burger of of massive

proportions and actually led to death of

people around the globe especially

children. So uh any final thoughts on

Doge? Just another waste of time.

>> Again there there was a Doge. Uh it was

it was the Clinton Gore reinventing

government. That's right. Yeah,

>> I just want to remind everybody, we took

426,000

jobs and we eliminated them over eight

years through attrition and buyouts and

process redesign. Uh, and what I don't

never can understand for the life of me

is I think I'm a reasonably smart guy,

but I know I'm stupid in a lot of areas.

But if I had a B next to my name, you

have to explain this to me car because

you hang out with these people more than

I do. So, I've got billionaires that

troll me on Twitter cuz they're smarter

than me and they know more about

everything than I could possibly know.

>> But, and I understand that. Yes, you

know more about neurology than

neurologists and more about the military

than the military. Yes, you have a

billion dollars. You're the smartest. I

understand that. But why wouldn't you

have gone to 25-year veterans of the

GAO, the government administration

office, and said, "Okay, where are the

worms in the system? How can I plug a

few holes? I'm not going to save a

trillion dollars or $2 trillion, but you

know, from an engineering perspective,

the structural design and the embedded

cost of the government, what could we do

to stop some of the

>> They didn't want to do that.

>> And how could we do that gradually?"

They didn't. And

>> they didn't want to do that because

what?

>> Because they wanted to please Elon and

let him jump all over the place with

I don't know. I I think he just was to

please Elon. I think Elon felt like this

was important. And that's where they had

the falling out over the tax bill when

he started to show what he really was

made of, which was spending more

government money. Um, and I just think

it was just all a act. They thought it

was all nonsense and idiotic and

possibly gave Elon and his minions uh

access to lots of secure government

data. I always thought it was about the

data, but that's just me.

>> Well, it was definitely it was

definitely a missed opportunity because

we could have gone back to payo

legislation

uh that got us to the budget surplus

during the Clinton era.

>> We could have gone with a Clintes a

dozelike system that was bipartisan. Uh

we could have said to our fellow

Americans, "Hey, we're not going to fix

the problem in 10 years." But you know

what? Over a 20-year period of time, we

could get the debt, we could get the

spend in line with where the GDP is.

>> Uh and we didn't do that. And you know

what's going to happen? And you know

this, and I know this, my buddy Ray

Dallio knows this. You're going to have

an American president in 2036, 2040

dealing with a $55 trillion budget

deficit. Mhm.

>> And they're going to be sitting there

saying, "Okay,

the money's not worth anything anymore

because the only way we can pay for

this, guys, remember

>> unfunded tax liability is what a deficit

is." That's what Milton Friedman said.

All deficit spending, unfunded tax

liability. And guess how we're paying

for it? We're using the most pernitious

and most regressive form of taxation

because we're cowards. We're using

inflation. And so we're going to we're

going to blow out your bank account. You

think you got $1,000 in your account. It

only has $750 worth of purchasing power

cuz that's our way of monetizing our

debt. And that's a problem. And that's

one of the reasons why I am long gold

and one of the reasons why I'm long

Bitcoin because I do think that these

will be part of the as we reinvent

ourselves once again, they will be part

of the answer uh to the way the monetary

system works in the future. This was a

missed opportunity and it was all

performative. Performative. Anyway,

let's go on a quick break. We come back,

the pros and cons of Trump accounts.

>> Support for the show comes from

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Anthony, we're back. Speaking of trying

to make money for American citizens,

Trump accounts, which I hope will the

name will be changed after he leaves,

and new investment accounts for children

have officially launched. Trump marked

the occasion by ringing the bell to open

the markets from the Oval Office on

Monday morning. 6 million Trump accounts

have already been open for children

under 18, according to Treasury

Department. A fraction of eligible kids.

That's a small amount, actually. Babies

born during Trump's term between 2025

and 2028 will receive a $1,000 deposit

of seed money in these accounts. The

Social Security Administration is

introducing a process uh for parents to

enroll their babies uh in these Trump

accounts at the hospital. They register

as they register for social security

numbers. We've seen a number of

individual and corporate donors to these

accounts, including Michael Dell and as

you mentioned, Ray Dallio. The latest is

SpaceX President Gwyn Shotwell, who just

announced she's donating company stock.

Um, what do you think about these

accounts? I'm not necessarily against

them. I don't I think it's I I just I

feel like grift will happen because

Trump's involved with it. Um, and at the

same time, I feel like maybe we should

just have, you know, child care. Maybe

we should just have healthcare. maybe

she would just have these kind of things

that are that cost people. I don't mind

forced savings which essentially this is

and I have accounts for my own kids for

college and things like that but and

everyone should be able to avail

themselves to them in a tax-free basis.

So, and at the same time relying on the

stock market's problematic from my

perspective. But go ahead. Let's hear.

>> Oh, I want to listen. You know, I I have

to say this one straight. For me as a

Wall Street person, I like this because

I even if it's going to be 6 million

people, that's what it looks like right

now. Uh getting these people

autoenrolled in the stock market and the

idea that they have some investment,

which means they're technically invested

in something. Uh, and it if it could

spark some aspiration, if it could spark

some interest in long-term thinking and

saving and investing, I like those

things. You know, I you know, listen,

Michael Dell, I think, gave 6 and a4

billion. I know he's a very wealthy man,

but I think it's a very generous

statement that he's trying to make. I I

don't like the Trump name on it, but of

course, anything that Trump does, he's

going to have to put his name on it.

He's trying to get his signature on your

money. He's trying to get his face and

your passport. he cannot help himself.

So, but but here's the thing I would say

about this and people should really be

concerned about this number. 40% of the

Americans own nothing in a retirement

account,

>> right?

>> And I want you to think of the pressure

on that. And so that also, we do know

this and we don't teach it in school and

perhaps we should. We know we have a lot

of financially illiterate people in the

country. And if you're listening to this

podcast and you're financially literate,

don't look down on those people. figure

out a way to educate those people

because more educated people and more

financially literate people will mean

there'll be more self- sustaining

people, okay? And there'll be people

seeking their aspirations. So, I do like

this one. Uh Trump is taking more credit

for it than than he deserves. This was

an idea that was proposed 10 years ago.

Uh lots of people blocked it. I think I

think believe it or not uh uh Vice

President Harris if she was president

would have accepted this at this point

in our culture. You're making a

different point though and I would just

say not to conjoin those. The point that

you're making which I agree with. We

need a platform of good food in the

school so the kid doesn't go to school

unhealthy or hungry. We need some

sustainable educational ideas and we

need some health care for these kids.

That's more important than putting

$1,000 in their savings. I I accept

that. But I would just say to you, Cara,

and people listening in, you got to deal

with the world the way it is, not the

way it should be and not the way we want

it to be. And so this one I like and I

would like I would like to see more

billionaires. I'd like to see more

people do this

>> giving money. So is this like although

some people feel like open AI doing it

as a way to get a bailout at some point

or you give you give him the money and

he takes credit for it and then you get

some sort of break of something else

that giving money these things gives you

something else.

>> Well, that's been the case with Donald

Trump. I we've learned that you you give

him money, you buy a documentary from

his family, you get more rocket

contracts, you you u you line up behind

him, he takes care of you. uh you know,

you've got people that have given him

money or given money to his pack and uh

Howard Butlick has written them out of

certain tariffs and has gotten them an

exemption on certain things. So, yes, we

know that there's a pay per place system

going on. And so, yeah, there's people

thinking, you know what, I'm going to

give this I'm going to get the tax cut

and Trump's got two and a half years

left. I may need a favor from him and

he's a guy that pays for play and I I

can get in there and ask for that favor

and probably will get it done. You know,

there's there's a queue of people and

I'd be very interested. I'm not an

investigative uh reporter, but I would

love somebody to work on this. There's a

queue of people that are lined up for

pardons and I know it's in the tens of

millions of dollars is being paid to get

these pardons. They're hiring lobbyists.

They're hiring attorneys. They're

they're buying I don't know fragrances

from the family or they're buying

>> all of Kelly and Conways.

>> Yeah, they're buying meme coins. I don't

know what the hell they're doing, but

I'm I'm sure there's a legion of people.

They're like, "Hey, we got a 2 and 1/2

year window. We broke a lot of laws, but

this guy could pardon my ass."

>> And and this is Trump's personality.

Rather than using the norms in the

system, he breaks the norms and then he

brags about it. And only I only I could

have gotten our player back on the

field. only I could take in billions of

dollars for myself. These other

presidents were stupid. They could have

made billions of dollars for themselves.

I'm the genius. You see what I mean? And

it it's very corruptive. And let me tell

you what it does, which pisses me off

the most, if you don't mind, because we

grew up similarly.

>> When I was a kid growing up, maybe

Richard Nixon was corrupt, but he wasn't

so corrupt that I thought the system was

broken and unfair. I looked up at the

system. I said, "All right, the guy's

probably corrupt, but you know what? If

I go to a good school and work my ass

off, I can move classes in this country.

This guy is putting a suppression on

middle and lower income people, they're

they're like, "Holy [ __ ] there's a

two-tier justice system. You're either

one of the president's crony friends or

you're not. And if you're not, you're

not going to make it, and I'm going to

do way less economically than my parents

did. And I don't have any hope, and I

don't have any chance." That's what the

corruption does in a society and that's

what pisses me off the most.

>> Yep. I would agree. I would agree. So,

we're both sort of for these things, but

it just seems like I'd love to get the

Trump name off of it. I almost signed up

for one. I almost did, but then I was

like, I have an up stock holdings. So,

last thing very briefly. Um, so Mark

Zuckerberg told Meta employees the

company's AI agents aren't advancing as

quickly as expected. Like a lot of

corporate people, Zuckerberg said Meta's

AI reorganization hasn't delivered the

results the company had hoped for,

though he expects progress over the next

3 to 6 months. In May, Meta laid off

around 8,000 employees and reassigned

about 7,000 AI focused teams. Zuckerberg

uh said this move is not as clean as it

should have been. Meta is expected to

spend as much as $145 billion on AI

infrastructure this year. Um,

everybody's a little worried about even

uh Palanteer the Palunteer even though

he said it in a crazy way was making a

lot of sense around uh the the high

price of tokens, the effectiveness, the

safety of your data, whether you want to

hand it over to these things, all signs

of possible highs of these of this

spending. Do you think how much impact

how much patience do investors have if

companies keep saying progress is slower

than hoped, including the center

companies in this?

>> Yeah. Well, I mean, you you know the

answer to that. I know the answer to

that. They have patience until bam, they

don't have patience. And this is very

reminiscent of global crossing and very

reminiscent of Cisco. And you and I are

old enough to remember web one where we

were building the infrastructure. We're

putting all the switches in. We have all

these transatlantic, transpacific

cables. We got cables coming down the uh

Persian Gulf all the way into the

straight of Hermuz. and we are going to

electrify and globalize everything and

they overspent uh and they had too much

leverage in the system as a result of wi

which like a like a real estate

speculation

uh the system got built but it collapsed

and the people that were owning the

equity and were buying the opium at that

time actually got crushed and so what

I'm fearful is also the way this stuff

is booked right because if you're you're

you're you're you're spending on the R&D

and then someone else is booking a

profit it at the same time. You know, to

me, you've artificially stimulated some

people's earnings, okay? Particularly

the data centers and things like that.

And so, I'm worried about that because

that's exactly what happened in web one.

And you and I are old enough to remember

that movie

>> and that movie ended in tears. Yeah.

That wasn't a happy Hollywood ending.

That movie,

>> then there was Google, then there was

Meta, then there was, you know.

>> Well, yeah. Well, yeah. Well, well,

that's the bet. So, now you've got your

cards. You're playing this hand. You

gota hopefully you can close your

position out before the thing blows up

and then you wait for whatever replaces

it. Right know you know listen

alista

>> ask ask jeies.

>> Yeah I

>> okay we could you you remember the

search capital group Scott and I were

reminiscing about that. remember

Internet Capital Group. Remember the

boom in Internet Capital? They named the

They named the Pat I knew it was over

when they named the Patriots Stadium the

Internet Capital Group Stadium or

whatever the holding company was. And

so, so to me, what I'm worried about

here and I think it's fair to be worried

about this is this is a great

technology. I think it'll add to

productivity. It'll boost things. The

internet certainly did that. But as we

invest, there were pockets in the

railroad industry that blew up, pockets

in telecom that blew up. And there's

going to be pockets here that blow up.

>> Do you expect to blow up? Because a lot

of economists are suddenly sounding

alarms now. It took a years before that

happened in the one you were taught,

global crossing, and everything else. It

took several years before it broke

essentially.

>> Well, you got to tell me where rates are

going. you you tell me where the rates

are going and I'll tell you where the

fuse is because if we manage to stave

off despite the economic data and the

spectre of current inflation

uh and remember we we had 100 basis

point differential on rate expectation.

So if you and I were doing this podcast

January 1, Anthony, what are you

expecting? Three 25 basis cuts this

year. What is it now? We flipped it over

to one 25 basis point hike. So that did

affect a large part of the markets. It

did affect crypto and obviously gold

also sold off as a result of that. But

if you're telling me we have a 50 basis

point 75 basis point rate increase due

to the quagmire in Iran all the

assortment of different things you're

going to you're going to shorten that

flu fuse. Somebody could say hey I'm

going to miss a bomb payment here.

Sorry. Uh I think it's very telling Cara

that Facebook which mints money and

Google that mints money I think they

combined went out to raise in bond

market activity something like $140

billion in the last 6 weeks. And so

that's telling you something.

>> They're like, "Holy [ __ ] we're spending

so much money. we better get another

hundred or so billion dollars in reserve

here to protect ourselves uh and to

create a a layer of protection on the

interest rates that we're going to be

paying.

>> We're going to be paying. So, we'll see

where that goes. Anyway, uh one more

quick break. We'll be back for wins and

fails.

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cultural curiosity.

>> Okay, Anthony, let's hear some wins and

fails. You go first.

>> Well, listen. I mean, we talked about

it. I think the win of the week is the

Trump accounts. Actually, I I don't like

to call them that, but I want Americans

to get into the saving and the investing

mindset. And certainly, if you can get

children into the saving investing

mindset, it could be a lifecher. So, I

think that's the clearest win for me.

Uh, the second clearest win, uh, which

is obscure to people, but I I I think

it's a it's meaningful is is the

birthright citizenship. And we talked a

little bit about that last week on my

show. I think that is the big message.

is sorry. You know, you pushed and

shoved us around. We are afraid of you

here at the court, but you know what? It

was a 6-3 decision and we're going to

stick with the Constitution

over the Orange Maniac. And I and I

think those are two big wins. All right.

So, losses for me are FIFA

and Sick of Fentino. I think this is a

big loss for him. And I think and I

think weirdly, you know, and sadly, uh I

think he's uh I think he's hurt the

game. And I and I think it sucks because

the World Cup to me is about

togetherness. You know, when you want to

love people and you want to love the

world. I think of the World Cup. I'm

like, "All right, look at all these

people." You know, the happiness and the

sadness is based on a sporting event.

It's not based on a war. I love the

whole environment. I love the whole

carnival of it. And I just think the

notion that this guy poisoned that, too.

It's like he won't stop at anything. So,

so, so those are the those are the wins

and those are the losses. That sort of

goes into my fail is the continued

sucking up of people like Be Bessant and

others about like yes there's plenty of

people behind me. The the the cultism is

so strange and it's so at some point

when are you going to say the emperor

has no clothes that's that kind which I

don't want to see Donald Trump naked

necessarily but um this

>> Have you ever thought about it though?

Is it ever like you're an imaginative

person? Has it ever just gone into the

brain? I have a a sense it's like an

open spam can like you just opened a

spam can and there he is. Have you

thought of it?

>> Open spam can with a penis which a bent

penis.

>> Well, you don't know it. Yeah, we

haven't confirmed or denied that. It

just could be an open spam.

>> I believe this I believe porn stars is

what I do. Um but uh I the sycopency is

just astonishing and Douglas Bergam in

particular like with the whole thing

around the reflecting pool. I mean,

first of all, everything like that fair.

Nobody was there and they were

pretending they were there. That was

hysterical. But he was going on and on

about these cuts and without any proof.

And then when the why are you meeting

people, why don't you just accept this?

And they're like cuz you're a liar, Doug

Bergam. Like to me, he seemed to be a

even though he's an obvious suckup.

Obvious suckup, but that the level of

suckupery is really and I'm like, you're

not stupid and you're sucking up. And

that to me was um really a a a fail. I

thought that I just can't believe it's

going to continue. I just don't know

when it's going to stop. And I'm sort of

waiting for the moment where somebody

points to him and says, "You're naked."

essentially. Um my win um uh is uh is ah

this is going to seem strange. So over

the holiday I went to see Supergirl

because everyone didn't want to see it,

right? Because it's you know it's this

big disaster for Warner um and people

aren't going to see it. And I have to

tell you it's a pretty good movie. This

is a pretty good movie. Uh I know it's

not going to win. I see the numbers. Uh

you I could see why it would be hard to

get a man to go to it. Um it's pretty um

woman focused. There's there's a sex

trafficking um thematic. It's dark. Um

but I do think this actor who's in it,

Millie uh I think it's Alco uh is

amazing. Was amazing. And I think it's a

lovely I think it's a good it's a really

solid it wouldn't there's been some bad

uh movies in this genre in the superhero

genre and lots of bad ones. This is not

one of them and I'm sorry it's not doing

better. I bet it has a life outside of

this time. Later it'll become a cult

favorite I think cuz it's really

interesting and strange.

>> I'll definitely go see. Look, I'm a big

Superman afficionado and I love

>> Yeah, she's really interesting. It's

dark. It's but it's dark and I can see

why people wouldn't necessarily go to

it. So I get it. I get it. I get it.

Anyway, and of course, the biggest win

of the week is Taylor Swift.

Congratulations with you and Travis

getting married. It's just

>> it's nice. I mean,

>> two crazy kids. You two crazy kids. I

hope for the best. I hope you can make

it both of you.

>> It's great. But, you know, if guys, I

would like to if you're probably not

going to have another wedding, but if

there's an anniversary party, Cara and I

would like to be invited because

>> we will see.

>> You may have invited me to this, but I

may have just missed it in the mail, but

I you know, I would like to be

>> agree. We will be there for you. Anyway,

uh Anthony, I really appreciate it. We

just for people know we want to hear

from you. Send us your questions about

business tech or whatever's on your

mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot.

Submit a question for the show or call

85551 pivot. Okay, that is the show.

Thank you, Anthony. As always, people

can check out your book, All the Wrong

Moves this Fall. It's a it's a it's a

really terrific book. Thank you for

listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and

subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll

be back on Friday again. Anthony, thank

you so much.

>> It's always great to be on with you,

Cara. Thank you, guys.