if we go right back to the start

i had a vision i had an idea and i was

so passionate about it i just want jim

sharp to be a truly iconic great brand a

leader in culture and helps inspire

people around the world

that was a period of great

self-reflection for me what am i bad at

what am i good at and i decided to lean

into my strengths in the early days i'd

have gone i'm introverted shy you know

and i'm not good at people management

but i didn't want to identify with those

things you should be able to look at

those things and try and solve them

everything came crashing down around me

because because there was nowhere to

hide like that definitely hit me and it

definitely hurt me and i really felt

like i was carrying that burden

honestly just keep trying and keep

trying and don't be afraid to fail i

think that's so so so important i've

never met anyone

who was genuinely successful that wasn't

hard working

[Music]

ben francis

the guest that you requested again and

again and again he is the founder and

now the ceo of gymshark the global gym

brand worth billions and billions and

billions that started right here in the

uk

founded by ben who was in his early 20s

and who is still in his 20s now as he's

leading the global brand all around the

world with 900 employees

this is a conversation i have honestly

looked forward to for a long long time

because there is nobody else in the uk

like ben that has built such an iconic

company that you see everywhere that has

maintained its integrity while they're

still in their 20s

ben's net worth is probably

pretty close to or over a billion

dollars and remarkably

he's one of the most humble individuals

one of the most introspective self-aware

people i have ever met a really good guy

and if you're someone that someday might

want to follow in his footsteps or you

want to build a business or just pursue

the thing that matters to you the most

then this is the conversation for you

i can't wait for you to hear this

so without further ado i'm stephen

bartlett and this is the diary of a ceo

i hope nobody's listening but if you are

then please keep this to yourself

[Music]

ben

when i look back on my life i only in

hindsight have managed to start piecing

together some pieces that have

enlightened me to

why i became the person i went on to

become and why i had the interests and

skills and all those things and also

like the insecurities um when i look at

your early years back in bromsgrove at

school i started to like connect a few

dots but i wanted to know in your own

sort of self-assessment whether you

you can now see any patterns from your

early years that you would consider an

anomaly

that caused you to become the anomaly

you are today

um

so

so i i think i had two

sort of really lucky moments so the

first one was at about 14 years old i

think it's about 14. you know when you

do work experience yeah so everyone just

sort of work experience at school

um and the work experience that i did at

that age was basically with my granddad

and what my granddad would do is he

would travel around the midlands um and

he would lie in furnaces so furnaces big

ovens basically where you would stick

airplane parts in it would heat them up

loosely speaking

and then what he would do was go around

and fill them with either ceramic fiber

or brick so i basically did work

experience with him did a bit of

labouring

and i would be sort of on the sort of uh

cement mix of the drum and i would

basically pass him cement or um he would

teach me to like push in uh ceramic

fiber or labrix or whatever

now it wasn't actually the work that was

important as such other than the fact

that it did teach me hard work but it

was more the fact that they were they

were long days and through those days we

would have conversations that like to be

honest in hindsight probably not too

many younger kids would have been

exposed to um because it was it was all

about like the risk that he took in the

business and the intricacies and so on

he would just talk to me about that and

i'd ask him questions and stuff and

that there was one particular job that

he did that he told me about and it was

it was building a furnace to be shipped

off to germany

and

he'd basically risked pretty much

everything he had on this one particular

job

and he told me about all the worries the

concerns the you know the worries that

he had in terms of you know keeping you

know the house for my nan my mom her

sister

um

and at the time it didn't really i don't

to me it was just a story that my

granddad was telling me

but then as i grew up and then i started

taking business risks of my own i do

remember thinking oh yeah but my risks

are nothing compared to his so i think

that certainly helped and like i said

just learning that hard work i think

watching my mom's worked in the nhs my

entire life she was incredibly

incredibly hard working i also got

fortunate at school because i did so i

did my gcses

and i wasn't i didn't do particularly

well i was sort of like a d is student

sort of like pretty average

i ended up getting into sixth form i was

super lucky and one of the classes that

i took then was a b tech and i t and

that i don't know if you remember the b

text you had a levels or b text i'm not

sure if it's still like that in the day

and loosely speaking then a levels were

you'd study you do an exam and b techs

were course work or practical work

to do it or tech in a practical way from

for a btec for me was amazing and that

was a huge moment because through that

btec i learned how to use photoshop

dreamweaver illustrator all of the

like the nuts and bolts that actually i

ended up using to build gymshark so

the combination of learning those bits

of software alongside the fact that

watching my grandparents and my parents

work incredibly hard the risks that my

granddad took to build his business all

of those things i think certainly helped

me when it came to starting up the

businesses that i started what does that

say to you about the type of learner you

are though that it was the practically

practical yeah yeah and that's been

evident even today right because i

remember you saying in a conversation

you had that um

one of the real privileges of your job

is you get to go and learn from the

experts in your inside of your business

so

jim sharp was started in 2012

and for the first few years it was sort

of like i mean it was me and a bunch of

mates basically and my brother came on

and we sort of started to build the

business and everything revolved in many

ways around around myself

and then as the business started to grow

it became

clear to me there was a genuine

opportunity right and listen we were

doing well we could do decent revenues

and so on but there's a difference

between

doing well and doing i don't know a few

thousand pounds in revenue to oh wow

this this could go into the hundreds of

thousands or the millions and

as the business grew

i then started to realize that i needed

to surround myself with great people um

so that that really helped and i think i

got lucky at the start as well because

the people that i then surrounded myself

with helped the business grow so i was

sort of positively reinforced as well

from an early age doing that where did

those people where do those people come

from i've always wondered this because

you

yeah last time we spoke and in

subsequent interviews you've always

cited those people like steven who was

the ceo of jim shark

and others as being really really

instrumental and they almost felt like

they were like

mentors yes they were yeah so

how did you join them so

i'll tell you what happened right so

and this is this is interesting as well

so maybe i don't think this is probably

spoken about enough

as an entrepreneur particularly of a

growing business you'll know this as

well as me

not only do you have to wear loads of

different hats on on a daily basis

but people don't talk enough about the

fact that during the growth of the

business you have to completely change

who you are as a person

not only because

you're developing and you're trying to

improve but because

the business is a separate entity from

yourself and the business requires

different things of its founder or chief

exec depending on the size of the

business so in the early days

and

i don't know how to put this in the

nicest way possible but i think i was a

bit arrogant right it was a bit like

this is my baby i know where i want to

take it and i'm going to drag it there

and i don't i don't really care what you

say

because this is my vision

and that worked to a point right i had i

had a vision i had an idea and i was so

and i still am so passionate about it

and then all of a sudden

i don't know how this happened i think

it was just it naturally happened

through just asking questions i've

always been quite inquisitive then sort

of you start surrounding yourself with

you know with great people and um i

would i would go to the gym right and i

would find like a guy called paul who's

like the business guy and i go and ask

him questions and stuff and all of a

sudden when you surround yourself with

those people you realize this whole

thing of i don't care what you say i'm

going to do what i want anyway that

doesn't work or it works for a period

and then they disappear so then i

realized that i then can't be arrogant

single-minded moving where i want to go

i need to retain a bit of that right but

what i need to do is one learn to work

with people and more importantly learn

to work with great people so that

happened and i met paul at the gym

um and that was just for asking

questions paul introduced me to steve

because steve had previously worked at

reebok um and that sort of fitness

sports where sort of thing um made sense

i ended up meeting a guy called niren

who

worked in uh like a local company and

funnily enough actually on that oh um

i hadn't so i'd met anyone when i was a

kid i don't know i was like

13 14 years old or something and then we

just sort of never kept in touch we went

to uni and whatever

and there was a point where i was really

struggling with something i can't

remember what it was it was something to

do with like selling things online and i

knew that he worked in another

e-commerce company so i sort of messaged

him i think was on facebook at the time

high near and long time no speech you

might have picked your brain on a new on

a few things

he ended up coming in advising us

greatly and then he ended up joining the

business so i think

looking back i think

one i think i managed to learn the

ability to really sell the vision of jim

shark

but secondly i think

the single thing was just asking

questions like i would always just ask

questions of anyone whether they're in

the gym and i know there's people right

there in the gym that i've asked

questions too that probably rolled their

eyes and thought oh god here he is again

but i just want to get on with my

workout but i was i was that person just

asking questions i think that's really

unappreciated about you it's because

because when i was looking through as i

was saying like when i was doing the

research and you're trying to find these

threads throughout your story this one

thread kept coming up in my mind which

was like ben is really like an

insatiable learner he's always trying to

learn even in that you did the

conversation with uh jake humphries on a

high performance

and

at the end of it when he asks you know

you know about the worst things about

your role you basically flip it and say

i'm like the luckiest person on earth

because i get to learn from the best

people in the world a lot of people like

if we think about the impact that being

like a really keen learner has on

someone over 10 years

it's just like an unfair advantage if

you and then i i reflect on the

world of warcraft thing as well and i'm

like connecting these dots i'm like a

lot of people don't get obsessive about

world of warcraft where you're building

and you're learning and you're competing

tell me about this world of warcraft

thing because i only saw a couple of

lines how old i was then i was at school

i just listened i just loved it i

thought it was great i loved so the

three games i loved i loved world of

warcraft i loved call of duty modern

warfare and um gears of war and those

are like the games world of warcraft was

the one that i think i played for the

longest period and the thing i loved

about it was

it was open world for one it had like

its own economy in it so you could like

learn a trade and like you know do

things sell things on the auction house

but you were working with people from

all you were playing with people from

all over the world you had to learn sort

of teamwork

the other thing that was cool about it

was

there wasn't really one so you had like

different like classes of character

right so one was like a like a warlock

and one was like a warrior one was like

strong i had loads of health and could

protect one would inflict loads of

damage on the enemy

the thing there was with teams was there

wasn't one person or one individual that

could do everything there was it was the

group that could do everything but you

needed like all these different like

facets it's like the avengers right the

avengers assemble into this great group

individually they're not as strong and

again all these lessons i think

definitely helped because even when we

talk about today jim sharp sort of

leadership team that's the exact analogy

we use avengers assemble like i don't i

don't want a you know a chief of product

who is the most

wildly intelligent financier or whatever

or commercial person but knows brand

like it's useful that they have an

understanding and respect of those

things

but we want a chief of product who's

really good at cheap of product right

and then we want a chief of brand who's

really good at brand and a chief of

finance who's incredibly good at finance

and then all those people come together

to create a team do you notice that like

at the start of the company like you're

talking about the requirement of

specialists there at the start of the

company

was that very different at the start no

to the start if we go right back to the

start it is literally a case of we need

a group of ambitious individuals that

truly believe in the vision and will

essentially do what it takes to achieve

that

and

there are

so many corners that are cut along the

way because you just have to do what you

can to sort of get by and i think the

other thing as well as in the early days

more often than not

especially if you're sort of they call

it bootstrapping isn't it when you're

not sort of borrowing money as such

you you need to find a way around it

like if you have

50 quid to do advertising you work out

how to advertise with 50 quid there's no

like oh never mind let's go home you

just you have to have great problem

solvers in the business at that stage

um

and to be honest the one of the things

that

as we move through the sort of nine year

history of jim shark

one of the things that i'm what i'm

proud of myself for doing is being able

to adapt from that point of view but

some of the most difficult times have

been that

inevitably there are some people who

can't maybe make that switch from what

was

to the future so that's an incredibly

difficult thing to manage as well and

that's the sort of thing that like you

know what you don't go to business

school or whatever and get and get

taught how to understand

where the level of an individual is or

how to have a certain conversation or

how to be self-aware enough to know what

you sh i shouldn't shouldn't be doing

yeah or where my level is so

yeah there's a hell of a lot of

challenges along the way i can agree

more i always say i've said this on this

podcast before but i ended up hiring

like just really ambitious people that

would like sleep on the floor with me

that had no experience and then

obviously as the business scales and as

you

said there like the the challenges of

the business become different and you

really are looking for experienced

specialists especially to lead the key

departments and uh

i remember that challenge in like year

three of now looking at the people that

have been so loyal to me and thinking i

don't know where you fit yeah anymore

because we need you know and it's

heartbreaking but that's where

you need self-awareness in both camps

where you can sort of have the

conversation that says

like our relationship is our

relationship and i love you to bits

however i need to take a step back and i

need to build this business in a way

that's best for everyone that is going

to help grow it so those are the sorts

of things that i think you can never

truly be prepared for and it's always

hard um

and yeah it was difficult i started

social team with a co-founder you did

too as well from what i understand lewis

yeah um there's very little written

about why why he's no longer with you

i'm guessing i'm guessing from what i've

read that there was just a

difference in opinion about the future

and you decided to go your separate ways

yeah and i think to be fair i think

lewis was lewis was great right in the

early days we would we were literally

inseparable and i think there came a

point where

you're right i had my vision and i think

he had his vision and i just want to be

clear he's like i don't think one is

better than the other it was just a

difference of opinion and to be fair to

him he had so many other interests in

terms of investment and property and all

these different things so lewis

essentially left in

[Music]

i'm gonna say 2014. i could be wrong

maybe 2015. the business was found in

2012 i think he left the business in

2015

um and then he basically retained

20 of his shareholding and then in the

deal that was last year he then sold out

the rest of that and now he's uh

investing and doing other things and

were you friends before

we yeah we were yeah well so we met in

that it class that i spoke about so we

met in it when we were

16 17 whatever the first year of sort of

post school is college sussex form we

met then and then we just went to the

gym together and then there was a group

of like six seven eight of us that would

all go to the gym sort of every day

together and had you decided who did

what so were you the ceo and are you

both ceos was it just no

that so in the early days that never

really happened it was just a bit like

it was a bit like right this is a list

of things that we need to do let's just

tackle them as we go there was no

organization in those days and i think

as the business then got more organized

that's when i think that's when

our vision started to maybe move in

separate directions could that have been

why then because there wasn't clear like

structure at the start that could well

have been to be fair yeah because that's

what you need right you need clear roles

and responsibilities um

and listen regardless if you don't have

that it just it just muddies the water

doesn't it what do you think of of

having the importance of having a

co-founder in the role it plays in those

early stages

in the early stages i think

listen i think it's important i don't

know the stats on how many businesses do

founded by individuals and not i know i

know when lewis left in 2014 2015

the the six months after that was

difficult not too bad it's not in terms

of

the fact that he wasn't doing x y and z

it was just more the fact that like it's

just different isn't it and it's this

whole new world and it's a bit like like

i then naturally well i i then naturally

sort of i didn't lean into this as such

until later on sort of 2018-ish

i then very much became the face of the

business in many ways and then it was

like if people wanted to talk talk about

the business or to the business then

they were coming to myself so

um

yeah i definitely noticed that and um

listen and then i chose to obviously

start pushing that on youtube and stuff

and then that happened more and more

going forward

so talk to me about that so first time

we met i it was actually on a different

series i was running at the time called

like everyday entrepreneurs or something

and when i met you at jim shark's office

i did notice that you were very nervous

very different from home that was about

2015 wasn't it that was in the early

days yeah so hopefully you can see the

change that's happened in me from then

yeah 20 times differently and that so

that was the period that was a period of

great self-reflection for me and that

was when i was literally going right

what am i bad at what am i good at and

what's my choice so

actually around that point i'd split the

two out good bad and i decided to lean

into my strengths i did that for

about three or four years and then i was

like right now i'm really comfortable

with my strengths i know what i'm good

at now i'm going to lean into my

weaknesses and i'm going to become good

at public speaking i don't know people

management all these other things so the

yeah when we met

i was definitely a lot more nervous um

i i it's so fun because i i literally

remember meeting you and i obviously had

this this idea of meeting you this young

guy has made this killer business

whatever whatever whatever i was my

anticipation was that you were going to

be like

loud and like really whatever and you

were so quiet and i could tell you when

you were nervous about the conversation

um

and i would never have guessed that

you're totally different now yeah and

which i think is incredible because it's

just like two for me it's like very very

different people and it's a testament to

your growth yeah but i was i was really

really surprised and i want to share

that because

um it i think there is a lot of people

listening young entrepreneurs or people

that want to that think you know how you

are now is how you will be and there's

no there's no development or

no and this is the thing where i think

what what you need to do again even more

i think i think everyone should do this

whatever field of work they're in or

whatever but particularly as an

entrepreneur because i feel like as an

entrepreneur everything's just amplified

right your your wins are bigger your

losses are larger again um your

weaknesses are you know are exposed

because you are exposed to the business

and the world in many respects

but what you need to do is you need to

write down like your character traits

the best example would be and this is

one that i'm currently working on right

is people would be like

i thought i'm messy or i'm always like

oh i'm always late i'm messy what am i

like and it's a the conversation for me

is a bit like okay you're messing you're

always late but those things should be

up for grabs right you should be able to

look at those things and go don't roll

your eyes and say that's just me because

it's not or it doesn't have to be

because if i'd have done that in the

early days i'd have gone i'm introverted

shy not good in front of cameras

terrible at public speaking and i'm not

good at people management

but i didn't want to identify with those

things i didn't want to say ben is that

because i didn't want to be that and i

think everyone if you can somehow i i

don't i think i was lucky because i was

surrounded by great people right

so

it's definitely easier said than done

but if you can try and not identify with

those things those parts of yourself

that aren't maybe ideal

and you can again look at them in a

logical manner as you would any other

problem in life and try and solve them

so i'm not good at people management

fine who's the best person i know that

is i'm going to go and chat to them i'm

going to pick their brains or even

better i'm just gonna watch them

because some people learn from just

watching some people learn just by

watching and so steve for example who's

the who was the ceo at jim sharp

previously

we didn't have that many

steve teach me how to people manage

steve teach me how to public speak like

we didn't really do that but by him

doing it i just watched him and i

understood the traits or the things that

he would do

that helped him be great at that and

then i just basically learned them and

tried them and tried them and tried them

and eventually got

reasonably good at doing those things

one of the things linked to that that i

always say is um there's no

self-development without self-awareness

and like i i still to this day i've

spoken to a lot of people on this

podcast i have no idea how you make

someone genuinely self-aware and when i

was and when you're talking there about

sitting down and writing a list of my

goods and bads

how do we know that our own like

delusion and our ego isn't writing that

list on our behalf i mean you could ask

someone else to do it the the first

really the time it hit home for me and

it was like a

ton of bricks on the top of my head was

i did a 360 feedback so anyone that

doesn't know what a 360 feedback is you

this i could i'm sure you can find it

online if you google it but basically

you ask the people around you to

describe you and it like prompts you as

it goes so ben is i don't know x y and z

those people fill it in anonymously then

it comes back to you and you have this

like thick bot of paper that basically

fully describes yourself

and i actually did this in it was around

when we met so around 2015 and i had it

and i printed it off and i read it and i

was so

upset and annoyed and i remember

thinking this is not me

and i took it home that night and i it

was just um erratic hot-headed arrogant

um poor manager all these things from

your employees yeah

and it's one of them like the so the

first thing and completely natural is

who said that i'm gonna find him right

that's the first thing now fortunately

it's anonymous you can't do that and

that would be terrible anyway but then i

read it i took it home

um left it on the side and i think i

don't know what i've done i've gone to

the gym or whatever else now my other

half who's now my wife ended up reading

it and i'd come home and i'd seen her

literally just finishing it on like the

last couple of pages and i was so angry

right i literally grabbed it off and i

said mine don't read it like it's not

even me anyway is it like left her alone

and we carried on with that day and then

like later on she was i said um i said

the same i said

that was a load of rubbish wasn't it

that's nothing like me

and then she said

she said that's the most

you

thing i have ever read and then it was

like that was it it was like i i didn't

even say anything i just i remember like

everything came crashing down around me

because because there was nowhere to

hide like she knows me more than anyone

and like i can kick and i can scream and

i can say no it's not true but in my

heart of hearts i knew it was true and

that was the moment i realized i have to

change i have to improve i have to

develop and if you're talking about

becoming self-aware

i think that was my moment

so incredibly true how our partners know

us yeah

and they they can be the most hurtful

but as you said completely accurately

said they're like my girlfriend said

something to me i might on the surface

be like oh yeah but then i go back to my

room and i'm like oh my god like

once your egos had like a couple of

seconds to chill so

you get this list of feedback i remember

doing the 360 thing with my team as well

um and i remember the same feeling like

who the [ __ ] said that like and trying

to work it out like looking over looking

at everybody like i know it was you yeah

it's my assistant um so you get that

list of things back and you can see

areas where you need to improve and you

agree you say okay right i'm going to

start listening what happens like how do

you go about improving on those things

because a lot of them are so like deeply

ingrained in you from

decades of your childhood or whatever

and

especially when you're a winner when

you've been successful in

one thing it validates you it almost

appears to be like validation of

everything so what do you do then what

do you do next yeah you're right so

that's the dangerous thing and i think

that's why i was so fortunate because

jim shark for the most part not entirely

had been very successful until that

point so it was difficult for me to go

well wait a minute i can't be that bad

right but yeah i think the the thing

with robin where she literally put it on

me that that was the moment um so what i

did then and i was actually watching it

was a garyvee video that i was watching

actually so what i did

was i had

the weaknesses which

were both self-defined but defined by

other people

i also have my strengths because by the

way that com your strengths come back

with a 316. no one reads them you only

look at the weaknesses right but there

is a list of strengths in there

somewhere

um and i realized that my strengths

particularly at the time were

around creativity around product around

brand around marketing around

understanding the industry the customer

and so on

so i was you know i was mulling the idea

do i work on my weaknesses do i focus on

my strengths

and to be honest i don't really know the

answer to what the best way of doing

this is but i decided through i think it

was a gary video to focus on my

strengths and i said right you know what

i'm going to do i'm 20 whatever it is 3

24.

i'm

purely going to focus on my strengths

now and that's when i went into a brand

role a product role a marketing role

everything that was front end and

creative at gymshark i completely lent

into that was when steve came into the

business steve became the ceo so i was

sort of like the responsibility of maybe

some of the week the areas i was weaker

at finance ops management that was then

like moved away from me and i purely

completely innocently focused on that

that was your decision yeah it's a

pretty amazing decision

it was heartbreaking as well because

again it's one thing moving yourself out

of a role it's another thing moving

someone then into that role who does it

really good um and like i'm looking at

them i'm like you're way better than me

and i just have to like know that

and make honestly i think i use that as

motivation to one day be as good as that

that was the that was the inspiration i

think maybe because

i was young i knew i had time and i

think that helped um but it was

heartbreaking because the other thing as

well is that doesn't mean to say

exclusively everything steve did for

example i thought was right it just

there was things that he did well i

thought

maybe i wouldn't do that or i would

think differently and sometimes he would

be right and sometimes he would be wrong

but

what i can't do and this is the weird

balance right because i'm founder

and i am like a majority shareholder of

the business so ultimately i have

control of the business

there's no point in me putting him a ceo

and then just overall in what he says

he's in the ceo because he's the best

person for the job and i have to trust

his judgment and opinion and

and it's that weird balance of that and

i never and i never have to this day

played what we'd call like the

shareholder card i've never come in and

gone

this is the way it's going to be just

because

so yeah then i was fortunate enough to

watch steve learn from steve and and

that really helped him

and this was the beginning i think of

the period where i was sort of becoming

a ceo because

i i started off as the chief of brand

right so the business was smaller at

this stage i can't remember the the

exact size or say 20 30 million in

revenue maybe

and i managed the creative the imagery

the videography the

athletes and sponsorships and all these

different things the events

and that was cool because i just

i got a real detailed understanding of

all those things like really detailed i

was in the nuts and bolts of everything

um funnily enough it then happened again

a guy called noel came in who was way

better than me

and he came in as the chief of brand so

again i'm sort of left a little bit high

and dry i was ceo now i'm not chief of

brand now i'm not um you brought him in

as well yeah so he actually came in and

reported into me but it was clear within

uh i don't know a year or so that he was

better so

i vacate the seat he comes in and he's

done a great job since

then i think after that i did i think it

was product for a little bit

which was great fun oh sorry i did

marketing which was great for the

marketing is all that's what it says in

the tin right all the marketing all the

ads you see online everything that comes

with that and that was great fun and i

learned a lot there i traveled the world

i spent time with facebook google's all

the partners like that and i learned a

hell of a lot there did you feel a bit

lost at this point

um because having gone from ceo to brand

to marketing typically when an employee

in my company does that i i tend to get

the impression that they kind of know

that me being moved around a little bit

like a chess piece and it's like they

don't feel like they ever fully own

something or that yeah so i've had that

but i've had i had that for five or six

years because then then it was it was

brand into marketing into product there

was tech for a little bit um

i've moved around a lot so this this

ceo role

is it's the first genuine home i've

found since sort of running the business

back in 2013 2014 and and why why why

did you so you've recently announced

that you're now the ceo i think it's

been roughly about four months yeah

since you uh

you kicked steve out and

evaded

evaded the office and slammed the

shareholder card on his desk and told

him to do one i'm joking um but

since you've sort of regained your

position and

made the decision with steve

um that you wanted to do the role again

yeah what was the thinking behind that

because a lot of founders when they own

the business it's doing really well it's

flying they know that they're in terms

of the financial ins incentives they're

going to do just fine and they can have

a really easy life and i've seen it

happen they just step back yeah they

just tiptoe out the door and let other

people do the hard graft why did you

want to step back into the hardest role

of all so first and foremost

i think like i said i've done all these

roles and i've built up to a point where

i

sort of thought i won't be able to do it

and i think the fact that so steve came

to me two years prior to coming to the

job and he said if you almost like i

think you can do this so that was a huge

vote of confidence because we'd had this

wasn't like an overnight thing right

this was a two-year build up from the

first conversation steve had to me

that's and his conversation was i think

i've taken the business to a point

where i can which is which was great uh

that he would be so honest and open

about that and then we had a two-year

period of okay like

are we gonna bring someone in from the

outside or ben are you gonna be able to

do this role and you know again similar

to what i did in 2015 is these are the

things that i now need to do to be good

enough to do in that role um so there

was a long almost warm-up handover

whatever you want to call it to that

now

the other thing i would say is the

business today is a very different place

to where it was like i don't know what

the numbers are but prior to steve we

were maybe 30 30 employees now we're

900. we were one office in the midlands

now we're several offices around the

world so it's a very very different

place

but

doing the chief of brand when the

business was this big and then product

at this big they're markets in it this

big and tech and so on

having the intricate understanding of

those areas not every area of the

business but many of the areas has

really helped as well one of the things

you said is that your link to that is

i'm scared of being someone that can

only just start the business and not run

it

yeah what do you mean by that i

so i i'm this i'm so proud of the fact

that i've found a gymshark i am it's

it's it's so great

but i don't want

i don't want it to be a bit like ben

founder of the business and that's all

he did like i want to do way more than

that and for me with my personality and

the way i'm built it's i think it's a

it's a bit it's a far bigger challenge

for me to run jim shark at the scale it

is now as a chief exec than it is to

start the business right

like there are so many business that

businesses that are started that die

after year one after year two after year

three after year four and five for me

i'm proud of the fact that i founded the

business i'm proud of the fact that i've

worked in the chiefs roles

but to be

in the front seat in the ceo

role a business like jim sharp moving

forward is one is the most exciting

thing in the world for me it's the

biggest challenge that i could possibly

like go for

and like for me that's exciting like i

want to aim

high both for the business but also

personally for myself as well and like

you said at the start i love learning

that doesn't mean i sit there reading

books 24 7 but i love learning and being

amongst it and there's no better role

for that

but the

apparent downside to that role is that

you then the box stops with you yeah

which means when there's problems when

there's crises they stop with you and

you could sail off into the distance

you'd get a really big boat with your

shareholding uh in the company and you

could just relax and just maybe

you know chill out maybe even invest in

some stuff and you know you and robin

can have a great life yeah why not

because it's like you're choosing

stress and long hours and busyness over

um

i think robin probably asked me the same

question regularly if i'm honest um

i genuinely love it i love the people

that i work with and you're right there

i i do not have to do this job there are

there is no two ways about it

i do it

purely because i absolutely adore it and

i want to challenge myself and i want to

be the best version of myself possible

when i have genuine ambitions to be a

great chief exec of this business one

day i don't think i'm anywhere near

there now

and it's a bit like you know someone has

to be a great ceo in five 10 20 years

time so why not me and

i'm always ambitious on behalf of the

business more than i am myself right so

i'll always put the business first

because it is my baby and i've been

there from

so in the close in the early days going

to the first events like looking at

having no money in the bank because of

the risk that we've taken so the

business for me always comes first and

the people within the business always

come first but personally i'm also

ambitious for myself as well

who is um hurricane ben hurricane ben

that would have been the

the ben that would have been described

prior to my 360 feedback so that i'll

give an example right so there would be

a

particular product that i didn't like

and my opinion would be just direct

brutal and probably not take into

account other people's feelings or

thoughts and that's not to say that

everything that you should do in

business should always be

you know stepping around people's

feelings because i definitely don't

think that's the way but equally like

don't be a dick and there was definitely

times in the early days when i was a bit

of a dick

and you and so what happens now in terms

of how have you learned not to be a dick

uh learn to give feedback

examples with feedback empathy

understanding why people do certain

things

like understanding the fact that like

you know no one is perfect certainly not

me nor anyone and

pretty much

never have i seen someone

go out of their way to like damage the

brand like people are doing things for

good intentions no one's designed a

product in a particular way because

they you know they want to see the brand

negative negatively affected no one's

posted on social or done something in

particular because they want to see the

brand negatively effective it's

essentially a difference of opinion so i

think

like understanding that and being aware

of it whilst i'm giving feedback i think

it's important what i'm in your because

i have this a lot as well what are the

some of the character traits you see in

people that work with you in in your

organization that you

you don't like so don't lie you don't

like so if you because because if if i

asked my team if i said to them what are

some of the things that steve doesn't

like from in terms of character

perspective okay

they would they would know i feel like

they would know because

and so to be fair i don't get too much

of this but i just don't want people to

agree with me because like i want to be

challenged all the time like for me

we want the best outcome i don't care if

it's my opinion or your opinion i want

the best outcome and if my idea is crap

tell me it's cool it's fine i will not

take it personally so i don't want

people i don't want like you know the

whole thing of a yes man yes person

whatever you want to call it i think

it's not to say that i don't like it but

i know that individuals that really

struggle with change don't tend to do

well at companies like jim shark if you

just want

a nine to five that is going to be

consistent and stay the same then it's

definitely not the right place for you

because it's so rapidly changing not

only because of the business itself but

because of the world that we're in like

10 years ago facebook was only small

snapchat didn't really exist

instagram barely existed

um shopify was very small like the

ecosystem in the world that we play in

was completely different so change as

well i think is important

yeah i can completely agree and uh i've

i've heard a few of your friends and

people within your team describe you as

being a bit of a perfectionist as well

in terms of having a high sort of

attention of detail is that do you

consider yourself to have to be a

perfectionist

i don't know

i don't think so i definitely don't have

a massive attention to detail i've got

the attention span of a nat really um

i try if if it's something that's really

i don't know something that just like

aligns with me then i'll i can obsess

over it for months on end um

if it's something i don't find

particularly interesting i have to use

every ounce of strength of every cell in

my body to remain focused on it like i

find that really difficult

i don't know if i'm a perfectionist i'm

probably not the best person to comment

on that i wouldn't say so i don't i

don't look like a perfectionist i'm a

bit scruffy and i you know i sort of

that's interesting meander

for those that can't see ben now he's

wearing his um it's all jim shark right

other than the shoes right yeah exactly

that um and you wear this outfit a lot

yeah

you pretty much look pretty the same

every day yeah why

because speed efficiency just simple no

messing around i don't have to sit and

think about i don't know what am i going

to wear today or i don't know anything

like that it literally just goes if it's

simple comfortable and i like it one of

the things you've started recently as

well as your vlog online um

and if we go back to when i that day

that i first met you and i i could tell

that you you know you were nervous in

that context and the guy you are today

two questions for you yeah um

did you did you do some sort of um did

you have professional support in

developing your ability to speak so

fluently and articulate your ideas so

well

um and then we'll move on to chatting

about why you're doing the vlog so i so

there's two things so public speaking

one in front of a camera two in front of

an audience or whatever you want to call

it to uh

to a group

i found those as two very different

things

and it's weird right because if i so

steve would be great in front of an

audience or struggle in front of a

camera

i was fortunate my other half robin was

a youtuber so she's brilliant in front

of a camera and she taught me how to

work in front of a camera basically not

through

uh i don't know i don't know it was just

through brute just keep going keep going

stick it for a camera in front of me the

first vlog she recorded and edited the

whole thing

um so she taught me how to sort of work

in front of a camera

i did have public speaking lessons

and that was massively life-changing for

me and the um going back to that list of

of things by the way when i said about

these are the things i'm good at these

are things i'm bad at one of those

things was public speaking

um and this is why i'm such a massive

advocate of making a list right because

public speaking was one of the many

things on my list which was a weakness

but i didn't then immediately go and

draw out a plan i just had that list and

i said i know i think i had it as my

wallpaper on my phone public speaking is

something i'm bad at

and then i was at an event or something

i remember what it was i think there was

an event at gymshark

and i'm chatting away to people chatting

away chatting away and said hello i'm

ben how are you have a great day you

know what do you do

and someone said i'm a public speaking

coach and then all of a sudden i've gone

boom light bulb i'm terrible at public

speaking you're a public speaking coach

i was like can you teach me

and and that's literally how it happened

but if i hadn't have sat there done that

work and written it down

it probably would have gone gone on

right i probably would have said okay

enjoy your day i'll see you soon it's

lovely to meet you and then i had public

speaking lessons i did i did actually um

shopify actually put me on a public

speaking sort of camera thing which was

cool then i did some here back in the uk

and just slowly worked it and and then

the thing that really helped me was just

and i wouldn't probably do this now due

to time but he was just saying yes to

things just saying yep i'm gonna do it

and you know what i'm gonna make a fall

on myself i'm sure there's some footage

somewhere of me

sweating and shuffling around a stage

somewhere like falling over my words and

being terrible at it but

you know that's just a necessary evil to

get get good at

anything really what did the public

speaking lessons was there like key

principles or key exercises that that

you felt actually moved the needle for

you was there anything there that maybe

someone listening to this that's a

really bad speaker might

be able to steal

there's a um there's a few bits so

there's one that that they told me and

there's a there's a quote i've said

online i think it's a winston church or

quote whether it is true you know you

see all these quotes and whether or not

they're true or not there's one where he

it says um i'm just preparing my

impromptu remarks which is like

obviously impromptu remark is a quick

sort of like thing that you've sort of

made up on the spot

and that really stuck with me because

then i know a lot of other people do

this as well is when we're talking about

a particular subject now i'm fortunate

because i've i've done so much of this

i've got like all these different

sentences and phrases and things that i

can draw on but in the early days it's

like so ben you're going to talk about

you're going to publicly talk about the

jim sharp story

now historically even though i knew the

gym shot story inside out because i was

there um i'd struggle with that so what

i do is i prepare phrases sentences

words reminders in my head so if someone

said i don't know talk to me about the

first event it would just sort of roll

off the tongue and granted i probably

wouldn't do that any anymore

but in the early days that got me over

that hump of that nervousness that frog

in my throat i don't know where to start

because that's the main thing is once

you've started it's fine right it just

goes but even just having that first

sentence of oh the first event was body

power and we did this and this and this

and then it yeah that that really helped

me that's so funny because that's

exactly what happens from practice isn't

it you'll know that now just go back to

it exactly i you know when i i do a lot

of interviewing interviews and stuff too

and there's like keywords trigger story

so if you said to me um

rejection i'd be like oh yeah you know

and then it's just the same old and that

and that's so funny because that's

ultimately what you're saying you're

yeah and coaching so yeah so first and

foremost preparing impromptu remarks

whatever you want to call it prepare

stories prepare things like make sure

you're well prepared and generally you

want to

if you're not very good at it like for

me i had to over prepare i had to

prepare you know this many things for a

conversation that was this long

um and then the aim of that is to become

comfortable that's the main thing and

that was really that was the biggest

difficulty for me become comfortable so

now i'm super fortunate you could put me

on a stage in front of a thousand people

and i would i mean it'd be a bit

peculiar if i wasn't prepared but you

know i'd be fine i'd be comfortable

because then once you're comfortable

what you do is you buy yourself time so

then if we're on stage and you asked me

a question five years ago i'd probably

like panic and answer as quickly as i

can with whatever

whereas now

i'm gonna process it think about it and

then come back with a response because

i'm comfortable and like i think the

stages to all different types of

learning and that was it for me one

preparation once i'd done that i'd

learnt to be comfortable and then i

learned about you know different things

as i go on and you know so this has led

you to now because you know what you're

i watched your videos back then and

maybe this is why i was surprised when i

met you because you're on your videos i

genuinely thought you were amazing you

could take ten thousand hundred and

twenty three that's why yeah i watched

your videos on youtube i was like this

guy's an unbelievable speaker oh no and

then i met you in person and it wasn't

that you're about like he's a shuffling

mess no it was so the crazy thing is you

weren't a bad speaker and your stories

were amazing but it was i could just

tell you were nervous yeah and that was

and that's what you were speaking today

about being comfortable

some people are just naturally

comfortable and that's and that's cool

and i think that but that's the main

thing and i do think for whatever reason

i think it's probably maybe we're not

taught it maybe it just doesn't feel

natural

if you can and by the way if you can

speak publicly if you can speak to

cameron if you can speak to groups

that is so powerful

so powerful it's untrue

why should you drink fuel we're going

into the fourth quarter of the year

diets are dropping off we're becoming

lazier and lazier and what tends to

happen when when our diets dip and we we

start to become less um compelled to go

to the gym

is yeah we get out of shape we start to

feel low energy we start to binge eat

bad things and fuel is the antidote it's

nutritionally complete so you get

everything you need for your diet in a

drink you get your 20 grams of proteins

you're going to get your 26 vitamins and

vitamins and minerals

it's low sugar high in fiber it really

is the cure to a lot of the health

issues that we see in our personal lives

but in wider society if you've never

tried it all i'll ask you to do is give

it a try and if you like me then you

will like the world berry ready to drink

you'll like the mac and cheese which is

just selling like absolutely crazy

unsurprisingly um

you like the cinnamon

and you like the banana flavor those are

my recommendations i know a lot of

people love the chocolate flavor

let me know try it get yourself healthy

and send me a message on instagram tag

me on instagram as well on your stories

if you do try it out because i i

sometimes upload those tags

and let me know which is your favorite

flavor can't wait from you

you now run

what was voted i think 2016 2017 one the

fastest growing company in this country

it's still one of the fastest growing

companies in this country it's worth

billions and billions and billions

um and you've decided that you're going

to vlog inside the company this is not

what ceos do ben

they don't you don't see them you never

get to

you know like think about all the big

companies it's very controlled pr yeah

why why do you think that matters

because if we go back to

me on the inside working with my grandad

and being able to learn about those

stories that eventually

led to in many ways the gym shot we see

today

i think

i would love to be able to provide that

to other people around the world

particularly here first and foremost it

can be done right so you can start a

business

in the uk whatever in in this world

online and it can become a unicorn in

under 10 years and if you don't want to

you don't have to go and borrow a load

of money you don't have to highly

leverage yourself if you're a problem

solver you're open-minded and you're

self-aware it can be done and i think

one that i think that's the first sort

of like step for me let me come at that

one then because i know because i i know

what people are saying they're saying

ben no that's you know it's called good

or well and good you saying that because

you've done it but

i can't i can't do it i'm i don't know

what you know and i'm uh i don't you

know i don't know anything about

computers and

it's all well and good you saying that

but you were this is what people say

because they said to me well you were

lucky you know you're timing and

by the way i was incredibly lucky

massively lucky you're good and that

would be completely right

um

and listen i would completely understand

that but

for the for some that want to

then that to me is is a proof of when it

can be done now

i am

very well aware of the fact that i was

very lucky one in the people i've met

two in terms of timing so fitness was on

the up right in the early 2000s all over

the news was obesity right to rise in so

fitness was on the up because people

were encouraging people into the gym and

fitness um

direct to consumer came out of nowhere

people were more comfortable in the sort

of 2010s than ever buying things online

right in the early 2000s

people were weren't that comfortable

buying online from a company they had

never heard of let alone one from right

another country abroad but number three

we had social media those three forces

converging at the point where jim sharp

was founded

is completely and utterly look and i do

understand that but i'm also aware of

the fact that there's loads of those

things happening elsewhere in the world

right now that you know probably aren't

being completely taken advantage of

so

i am aware of the fact that it's luck

but i also think as well in me doing

this i'd like to think that regardless

even if you don't want to start your own

business which by the way is completely

cool like and i'd probably say in many

respects that's probably a good idea

because it is very difficult to do this

um

i still think there's lessons that can

be learnt and i love the thought of

people being able to take something away

from the gymshark story and create

something called of their own

it also gives you this weird type of

defense

because you can see that so many ceos

have been attacked because they are in

essence i think what we're talking about

here is being like a glass box ceo or

the old model of being like a black box

ceo yeah where your image is painted on

the outside by your marketing or pr

people and no one ever gets to really

know you'll see inside you've taken this

really glass box approach where if

someone writes something bad about you

ben i can like well i've seen 65

interviews of him and i've seen his vlog

so i have my own reference point to know

that that's actually not him and some

ceos out there like elon and these

really public ones have that and then

zuckerberg hidden a k for the last 10

years and in 2019 he announced that he

was finally going to start doing

interviews because of how everyone just

thought he was this emotionless robot

because that's what the press said yeah

um and it is this this incredible

defense mechanism that i don't think

people really appreciate

yeah and i think i can also empathize i

mean listen what zuckerberg has done is

like on a completely other world to what

any pretty much anyone else has done

certainly myself um but in the early

days of gymshark i didn't want to be

clustering myself on social media by the

way i didn't want to be on youtube i

wanted to just knuckle down and focus on

building the business because remember i

didn't know what it would be at that

point

it was only when

people started asking for that that i

then decided to do it so i do also

understand the idea of just knuckling

down and focusing on what you're good at

but you're right the problem that comes

with is

other people get to control

the rhetoric or the language or the

description of yourself and we're seeing

that in the uk a lot of big companies in

the uk that are being attacked at the

moment

you don't know whether the articles are

true because you don't know the person

they're talking about and um that's why

i literally have a picture in my office

over there reveal on smoking's uh joint

on the joe rogan podcast because for me

and this is going to sound like [ __ ]

bonkers like that's the ceo i would want

to be

is where i cry on jurgen's podcast

smoking a joint and for everyone to know

that that's how open i am and yeah much

the reason why i started this so the

pandemic comes around

um

talk me through how it was being a ceo

throughout that because one of the

really remarkable things is you didn't

follow anybody you didn't no we didn't

so i wasn't ceo at the start of covid i

came in in august but the so that was

interesting so we we were lucky again

because we were completely set up the

zoom everyone has laptops we're you know

we're a digital business so working from

home thanks to our tech team and in the

investments they made

from a systems perspective it wasn't

like tough i know there are other

companies that not everyone had a laptop

and so on so that i couldn't imagine

where to start there

um and we had that moment where

so what we have is because we have we

have an office in hong kong we have

offices in the uk we have offices in the

us and we literally saw because kovid

sort of came from the

east to the west didn't it and we saw

hong kong

closed right everyone went into lockdown

and there was this bit where i know i

was thinking never happened here never

happened here

until it did right and then

boom locked down everyone working from

home and um i was in what was i doing at

that point i think i was just finished

opening marketing and i think i was

moving into product at that point

and the moment that caught me which was

within like 24 hours of being locked

down

i was lucky i have an office at home i

shut the door i've got a desk and i can

just work through that and when i'm

finished i can close the door at the end

of the day i was chatting to someone and

they were like they were in a studio

apartment in birmingham city center and

their partner was making their breakfast

behind them and they were sort of like

like balancing their laptop on the work

surface and

it was all just i remember chatting to

her and thinking okay this is going to

be really just really tough for some

people

from a professional perspective and then

i'm chatting to my mom who worked at the

qe in birmingham city center uh hospital

in selly oak she was telling me about

what was going on there and i was like

it was very

i became very aware very quickly that

this was a big thing or it was going to

be a big thing um so yeah managing

through that was was really really

really tough um

listen commercially the business did

okay like people were shopping online

and it you know there were more people

working out from home they were cycling

they were running

that side of the business did well

but managing hundreds of staff around

the world working from home

mental health making sure that we're

supporting them

through

complete uncertainty was definitely

difficult and where did you learn then

so having seen that member of your team

on that ironing board in that studio

apartment where did you land on this

whole remote working debate um

what is jim shark what's that what's

your injury so we we i mean listen there

are people at jim sharp that work

remotely and it works for them and

that's fine

personally i'm a little bit

old-schooling i'm in the office pretty

much every day unless i'm you know out

at meetings i just love to be in the

office um that doesn't mean it's right

or wrong i'm sure i would probably do a

a day maybe a month or a quarter working

from home if i need to like work through

things because when we did work from

home i found that i finally got to my

to-do list which was useful and i'd

never really got to that previously

we're sort of open-minded there are some

people that remote work it makes sense

for them um as long as it makes sense

for the business as well as them that's

cool personally i like to be in the

office you you have this big amazing

office in the uk especially i mean you

have a few but the one in

birmingham yes

sully hall is a tremendous new like

newly built

campus almost that he's built um

what role does that play because i'm i'm

in the camp of i love the office as well

and i think it's i think it's more than

just a place where you come to do your

work i think it's community i think it's

culture i think it gives especially

younger generations who haven't figured

out their lives you have an opportunity

to learn meet people

get married

um so what like how do you see the

office and and have you set parameters

for your employees as to

we're working on it now that's what

we're trying to work through um there

are some people that are on remote

contracts so they choose to work remote

there are many the vast majority are on

contracts which which means they're

based in hq

um

personally you're right the whole thing

about like i said earlier being able to

watch steve right was massive for my

development so if i'm a youngster that's

coming in to work at gymshark i want to

be in the office i want to learn and i

want to grow and i want to be around

people because that's not to say you

can't learn on zoom i think you can and

i think there's great utility for zoom

and i think there's areas where it's

really helpful and useful

but if i'm a young product designer i

want to be around designers and i want

to be able to be inspired and i want to

have that conversation i want to be able

to share ideas in the moment rather than

having to jump on slack forward slash

resume jump on a call and so on

hopefully they're free

so yeah for me i like i said i like to

be in the office i think it's it's a

great place to learn and and the office

for us and which is why we're investing

in this campus and this larger office is

it is it's a hub of jim shark when

you're there you're in it we we work

together we eat together in refuel many

of us go and lift in the gym after

together and it builds that genuine

community in the build in the uh in the

business one of the things you you know

when i hear your story um no matter

where i look

it it does feel like you're just

incredibly good at dealing with [ __ ]

like it it appears on the surface that

you're just incredibly good at dealing

with the hard times um and it also kind

of appears that other than the one

moment you told me about where you the

website went down and you had to write

out the apology notes and stuff but

there's really not been a lot of like

chaos

and i'm like every every day is chaos

that's why tell me about that part of it

i don't know where to begin like in

terms of like starting the business

we there were several times we invested

everything we had on a particular event

or a particular product line

um

covid was tough it's like

what

when the business the business is

growing at the rate that we're growing

even just making sure that we've got

enough stock to fulfill the forecast for

the following year is it's tough to

manage and work out moving from you know

zero to 900 staff in nine years that's

so hard and it's like every day hard

because in many respects

when a big problem comes in and it just

hits you in out of nowhere

you look at that problem and you try and

solve it whereas people forget about the

everyday nagging problems of making sure

that like the majority of the people

that currently exist in gymshark weren't

in jim sharp 12 months ago so the

majority of people in jim sharp maybe

aren't as aware of the story or the way

that the business works or or haven't

been truly immersed in the culture both

because they haven't been here for a

long time but also because we have been

working remote for so long

so those problems in terms of making

sure that everyone is truly bought into

the brand are really important because

when you've got a team that big we want

to make sure that they're working

efficiently as well

steve said that um

the former ceo said that pressure is a

privilege

to you so i think it's true

do you think it's a privilege for you as

ben or do you think it's a privilege for

everybody i think it depends on what the

pressure is right right i'm sure there

are people in this world that are under

a lot of pressure that certainly doesn't

feel like a privilege but in the context

of jim shark is a privilege like we all

choose to be there we're all a part of

something really special something that

i really believe this i think

i do think books will be written on this

story and i think maybe if we do what we

think we can maybe like there'll be

programs and movies too because it is so

unique and so special so within the

context of gymshark i do think pressure

is well and truly a privilege for us

when i when i reflect on early days of

starting my business there was a lot of

unknown unknowns a lot of things i wish

someone had just told me sooner or a

lesson that it took me three or four

years to learn

when you look back at some of the things

you wish you knew sooner that would have

maybe even put

what is a phenomenal business even

further ahead

what are those things that come to mind

i'm interested in

interested to hear what you think but

for me given my skill set we didn't

invest in the foundations of the

business early enough i

i was

going back to being arrogant at the

start i didn't really respect what maybe

the ops or finance people of this world

did i the the foundation elements of the

business to me were nowhere near as

exciting or fun as the front end element

of the business the product the brand

and the marketing so i think if we'd

have better prepared ourselves for that

from a like i said data ops finance all

these things i think dream shop would

have grown far quicker

and i mean in terms of especially with

what you guys did particularly social

change you were ahead of your time in

that in terms of bringing all these

pages and channels together and almost

packaging them up for different

businesses and brands so

you must have struggled with that as

well oh my god my answer is the exact

same as yours it's just i was exact i

was exactly the same guy i

thought that the thing that would move

the needle most was what i did and what

i knew and then it wasn't until you hire

one really great person and you go

[ __ ] oh that's that's what good look

and look at all the things i don't know

and i i think it took me two maybe three

years to realize the importance of

really great talent yeah and that my

skills and my talents weren't actually

going to matter that much especially at

700 800 people business yeah the um i

think great people are amazing we did a

trip uh to fiji years and years ago and

it was the first time i got to spend

time with

harley uh shopify holly finkelstein and

uh toby wow at shopify so like these are

like some top top entrepreneurs and

there was there was a load of other

people there

i remember sat i didn't even barely say

anything i remember listening to them

and i was thinking to myself

jim sharks like uh

or the people or the certainly even me i

felt like i was like a local football

club player these are like premier

league international stars they were

like

another level compared to what i was and

we were in the business so to be able to

see those when you see a great operator