Lisa, it's great to finally meet you.

Thank you for coming out to Jersey for

this.

>> Thank you for having me. I'm super super

excited to be here.

>> Well, it's been a very interesting ride

for you and particularly the last 3

weeks. And I've seen you also out there

doing the damn thing with other brave

survivors as well, advocating. You've

done this for a while to be clear, but

now it's like because everything's out

there. For people watching this, by the

way, maybe you're watching this five

years from now, 10 years from now. We're

going to respond to some of the recent

news at the beginning and then we're

going to get to Lisa's story as well.

So, if the news is old stuff, you can

skip ahead to that. But, what's it

what's it been like to now see, and

we'll get to all the problems with this

release, but what's it been like to now

see so much of the things that you have

been pounding the table telling people

it was this bad now actually be visible

to the public to be like, "Holy [ __ ]

it's this bad."

Well, it's funny you say that because

I've always known it's been really bad,

you know, but um I had no idea it was

this bad

>> really.

>> Every year I found out more and more

information that corroborates my story

and many of the other survivors stories.

we had like cross reference, connect the

dots, but in the last um couple years um

everything is making a lot more sense

which is why we've come together to to

really bring it to the attention and

awareness of you know the American

people and well basically the world now.

>> The world.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, um, now it was just it

just always was so important. But, I

mean, this last drop a few weeks ago

really, um, is is where people are

really getting what's the the major

cover up really is.

>> Yeah. I mean, I've I've looked at this

case

a lot for the last seven years.

>> Oh, seven years.

>> Yeah. I mean when it came out in 2019 I

remember there were like a few articles

about him in 2015 20 I probably read

some in 2017 like remember Politico I

want to say did a piece like huh that's

kind of interesting never went all the

way there and then he got arrested and

I'm like all right this feels off and

then you start looking and you're like

>> what

>> yeah no one really paid attention till

he died

>> 2019 same for me that's when everything

turned for me

>> right and we'll we'll talk about that

for sure but when this latest trunch

came out on January 30th of emails and

files.

The darkness

in there and just the things they would

>> so flippantly talk about

>> and the code words. I mean, it's like

>> if you're a hardcore conspiracy

theorist, you are taking a very not

happy victory lap right now cuz you're

like, "Told you."

>> Yep. Yep.

>> Right.

>> Yeah. those conspiracy theorists.

We're finding out we're right.

>> Yeah.

>> On a lot of things. So,

>> yeah. Now, you didn't

Some of the other victims that you've

connected with that you've had a chance

to talk with since this latest round

came out, have they were some of them

involved in any of the really really bad

stuff we've seen in the files? And No,

>> nothing. Nothing that we know of. I

mean, maybe maybe they had something to

do with that, but I just feel like that

was a different layer that most people

didn't know about. I actually think

that's the layer that they they never

wanted anyone to know about because I

mean, everyone knew about, you know, if

you're 18 and over and then we knew

about the underage girls, you know,

>> but when it came to what we're seeing,

the really dark and depraved um

interactions and the way they're talking

about children, that was that was

harder. Um, I always knew it was

probably there just because I've heard

things over the years, but I I had no

idea until you actually like read it and

see the pictures. Um, and and to read

how it was just tossed around like it

was nothing. Like it was just another

day of like bring over, you know, the

pizza and beer. It was just like talking

like they weren't actually talking about

real human beings or somebody's kid, you

know. Exactly. It's it's I've actually

been really sickened.

>> Like I feel sick. Yeah,

>> physically. Um, I'm I'm I'm more

emotional about it just because dealing

with the underage girls was hard for me

because I have a a 14-year-old boy.

>> So, when I met the survivors and they

were 14 years old when they were abused

>> and he took their virginity,

>> things like that, I just I had a hard

time ex accepting it and and

understanding it.

>> So, I mean, this goes to a whole another

level now.

>> Yeah. And it's it's also like you talk

about the ones that with the really dark

stuff that you haven't been able to see

come forward. Unfortunately, you have to

wonder

>> if from that stuff if anyone's even

alive

>> because it show No, really like it shows

in the files. I mean, what was he buying

beef? Like 330 gallons of sulfuric acid.

>> It's like

>> you never know.

>> That's what I'm saying. Well, I mean,

most of the survivors that have come

forward are 14 to 24. Yeah.

>> When the abuse happened, 1,200 or

something. The FBI says 1,200 plus. Um,

>> added a couple zeros to that, but yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, I don't know counting I

don't think they were counting um the

that young.

>> Mhm. So I remember when they did the

when the case from '05 when they were

first bringing it where it ended up

being covered up obviously got covered

one of the things that they would find

out is is that Gilen would refer to the

girls I mean these were 12 13year-old

14y old girls that she would go recruit

as I think it was the word was new

>> which so therefore we've known for a

while like Jeffrey and Gilen

>> looked at other humans like total trash

killed children no less.

>> Oh, she said that.

>> Right. So to see

now though that all the people that he

associated with, no matter how smart,

rich, or connected or whatever they

were, so many of them, I'll say, looked

at it the same way. It's like, well, how

how widespread is a problem like this?

>> Not only do they look at um other

people's kids that way, uh they looked

at their own kids that way. They would

say, "Oh, we're bringing our kids." You

know, 11-year-old, 14-year-old,

9year-old. You know, they didn't even

have names. If I'm going to meet you,

I'm I would say, "I'm bringing my kids,

you know, Tom, Dick, and Harry." Like, I

wouldn't say like the ages. It's It was

really It's really creepy the way they

talked about their own children, but a

lot of the men in the files talked about

their kids like that.

>> Yeah, that one that email in particular,

you're you're referring to the Howard

Lutnik one really set me off.

>> Oh, shoot. Yeah. And I mean even just

even just even just saying like you know

I'm coming to the island and I'm

bringing my kids and my nanny and people

were like oh nothing happened cuz I

brought my kids and my nanny. It's like

that's the whole thing right there. It's

like the cover up of no my wife was

there. My kids were there. My nanny was

there. Well that's why they were there.

You know,

>> how about the fact that he goes in front

of Congress, has to admit that that

concocted dramatic story that he told on

public camera 4 months before was a

complete fabrication of his imagin. I

mean, did you Yeah. Did you see he

irritates me?

>> His eye contact during that and I

decided that I would never associate

with that disgusting individual ever

again.

>> Ever again. He's like

>> gross. Yeah,

>> he's gross. So, you know what? He was he

was right when he said that. He knew he

was a disgusting individual. That's the

truth. And that he's gross. And that

I've never had anything to do with him.

That's a normal thing that a lot of

these men have said over the years that

I have nothing to do with him. Gates as

Gates as well. Nothing to do with that

guy. And then it comes out they've kept

in touch with him for years and years

and really on a really depraved scale.

>> Yes.

>> You know, that's that's the that's the

craziness. That's the thing where you're

like, "Wait a second. Shouldn't that be

investigated?

>> Yes.

>> Like, why isn't that investigated? I

have nothing to do with that man. And

then it finds out years, you know, you

were visiting this guy. Why were you Why

were you hiding it?

>> Right? And sociopaths, if if you want to

go straight to that term, and I would

with many of the people in these files,

you know, they have no ability to feel

empathy, right? And so when a guy like

that then gets up in front of Congress

and with a dead straight face admits

that that was all a lie and then says,

"Yeah, you know, I did meet with him and

we did go to the island, but it was only

for an hour." I'll get back to that in a

second. And by the way, when I leave

here, I'm going to continue doing my job

advising the president every single day.

And what the [ __ ] are you going to do

about it? The hubris you have to have to

be like that is insane. But you bring it

up. I I I love that you brought up the

details of how he talks. How about him

saying during the hearing, I was there

for an hour. Which who goes to an island

for an hour? Beef was saying that,

right? You couldn't say the afternoon,

right?

>> That's number one. Number two, he had it

was just very strange to me, and I don't

know if I'm reading into it too much,

but the way he said it, he's like, "And

we left with my wife, with my children,

and as well as our nannies." And it was

almost like, "So, there was an option

that you were going to leave them behind

there?"

>> You know what I mean? like the way he

said it. Um, and I am on edge listening,

but I was looking at that like

>> you just going to leave him with Jeff on

his island.

>> Well, they kind of tell on themselves

because what a sociopath does. It's like

they're trying to lead you in a certain

way to think. Yes.

>> Something by telling you these details

overly, you know, stated details, but in

the details doesn't make any sense at

all. It actually makes you look more

guilty.

>> That's right.

>> I mean, I mean, he's he's he's

completely guilty as we know. I mean,

this is not me speculating or you

speculating. It's in the files.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, so

um and he in his own admission covered

it up for whatever reason. He could have

said from the start, yeah, I was there.

It was just business. But he was saying,

"I was never there."

>> Yeah.

>> You know, so um I have seen that with

quite a few of those men saying that

they weren't there. they had nothing to

do with him and they had no financial

dealings. And then we it comes out later

they're, you know, emailing, oh, that

little seven-year-old was naughty,

>> right?

>> You know, little things like that. And

who writes like that?

>> Sick, depraved people. Who writes like

that? I

>> I would like to think I don't know

anyone like that. But very sadly, when

you look at stuff like this, you wonder

if there's like someone you know who's

secretly like that.

>> Of course,

>> you really do. Cuz like the I know a lot

of people, right? I do I do a job where

I connect with people all the time.

percentages say I know someone like

that.

>> I know. Of course we all do.

>> You know, which

>> we all do. We just will never we never

really know.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, until they're exposed. Then

it's like, oh well then here comes all

the excuses of why you were friends with

him.

>> That's right.

>> The thing about Ebstein is that all the

survivors know or anyone who has ever

been around him. He was perversion

written all over him. He never hid it.

You knew exactly the type of man that he

was. Um, and also I mean to go a little

deeper, you know, having um to be around

these people to just get something on

them or to blackmail them. He made it

known very quickly what he was into just

to see how much that person would be

into because a little bit here, oh,

here's a, you know, 19-year-old and

then, you know, here's a 15year-old and

then to see if they can push anybody

younger to get anything on them.

>> Yeah. And and when you have that type of

leverage on someone, there's many many

things you can do with that when

someone's that powerful.

>> Yes.

>> So that was like the basis of who

Epstein was with every one in those

files. If you read on any political or

or powerful person, it was all if you

look at the way they spoke to each other

was on more of a little bit of a

sadistic or sinister level.

>> Yes,

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checkout. And I I heard Andrew Schultz

say he made a really good point here.

Obviously, we've always heard about the

famous flight in O2 when infamous flight

when Jeffrey took Bill Clinton and Kevin

Spacy and Chris Tucker

>> on over to Africa for

>> Cape Town.

>> What was it like the African AIDS

conference or something?

>> So that's where that's an example where

there were, you know, some entertainers

there as well. But what Andrew pointed

out that he's very, in my opinion, right

about is that yes, Jeffrey sometimes

would be seen with entertainers and some

famous people like that. But when we're

reading the email files and going

through the people who are clearly in on

it, pretty much everyone you see is

wealthy, powerful, but like a nerd,

>> you know, like they're they're

scientists, they're business guys,

they're nerds. Whereas like, you know,

you know how it is. the entertainers,

they don't have any problem getting

their own kind of date. But these guys,

>> they're nerds and then you obviously

they're they've pushed themselves to a

whole another level where they then I

guess like take out their own

insecurities in the worst way.

>> Well, yeah, of course. I mean, men love

to be around beautiful women. I mean, we

get that. Um, but a lot of these nerds,

they're really busy. They're

businessmen. You know, some of them are

billionaires. They got really packed

schedules. They can't really fit in. And

a lot of them are married, you know, to

fit in to fit in, you know,

>> you know, to fit in, you know, you know,

having some young girl by their side or

whatever. So, you know, you do some

business with Epstein and then he has

these young girls always around them,

>> always around,

>> always around him. He didn't travel

without them. So, let's just stick to

some facts. So when he went to South

South Africa to Cape Town,

>> Jeffrey set up uh like a modeling Cape

Town's a big modeling um market where

where girls travel to to work. I did

>> right after high school 1998 in 2003. I

went there for six months and I worked

as a model there. You do magazines and

cataloges and TV commercials and you

really build your book so that you're

worth more when you come back to New

York to work as a model. So Epstein is a

fact set up with his secretaries and and

his assistants, older assistants that

were there u modeling um casting where

um girls would show up and you know if

he liked a particular one you know he

got their information and then later on

he flew them from Cape Town to New York.

So and I knew I know some girls that

were involved in that um who were who

were abused on that trip. So, let's just

say this is a fact that happened.

Um,

how how much do those other men know

what was going on? Did he do that in

secrecy and the other men don't really

know what's going on around him? So, I

just find it my whole point is I just

find it uh odd that anyone would say, "I

have no idea what he was doing

>> when this was he didn't mention the

casting. He didn't mention the the

beautiful young girls that he was

meeting there who later were shipped

from Cape Town to New York City, shipped

to the island, shipped to different

places, you know. So, this is just the

way that he operated.

>> Um,

>> sex trafficking 101

right there.

>> Well, there you go. That is sex

trafficking. You put someone on a plane

and ship them somewhere else and then

>> that's it. They get trapped on the

island, their passports are taken away,

and then next minute you're like told to

go into this room to have sex with this

person.

>> Yeah.

I

>> I mean, you mentioned you have a

14-year-old son.

>> Mhm.

>> You know, he's still not

17 or 18 or older, like, you know, but

it's it's your son. How do you talk with

him about this?

>> Well, um, my boys know about, you know,

what I've gone through. I've always been

honest with them

>> from the start. I mean, a lot of the

survivors are mothers of girls,

>> but I have boys.

>> Um, and they're always like, "Oh, I do

this for my for my girls, you know,

because of the world we're in. We they

need to be educated. They need to know

what's going on." But so do boys.

>> Absolutely.

>> Yeah. Boys need to know what's going on,

too. Um, and just to navigate this whole

world, it's just it's very different

from, you know,

from when I grew up, nobody talked about

these kinds of things. You know, you

know, you know, after I spoke out in

Capitol Hill, I had thousands and

thousands of emails and DMs and text

messages coming in from so many people

around the world who have been abused

and mostly from childhood. and they had

never told anyone in 20, 30, 40, 50

years. And for some reason, because I

spoke out, you know, they they felt like

they could just reach out to me just to

get it off their chest, just to say, you

know, this what this is what happened to

me. Do you know that an overwhelming

amount of them were men?

>> You know, there's so many men out there

who are suffering through through this

and so many men out there who support

who there's so many men out there who

support the survivors. It's not just a a

women's problem, right? And so when we

survivors, we stand up there. We're not

just standing up there for Epstein

survivors, the 1200 or or maybe many

more,

>> but all survivors of sexual abuse.

>> Yeah.

>> Because it's a a major problem. If you

if this case were just alone, the sex

trafficking and sexual abuse, it's one

of, if not I I can't think of anything

bigger, the largest known case in modern

and maybe human history of this being

brought to light in, you know, decent

human society.

Then when you think about all the other

things that that was used for and all

the other CR like the scope of it, you

can't even fathom. I Who was it? Tucker

Carlson was saying it's like a super

government or something.

>> Steve, I don't want to get that wrong,

but it was a fair point. And he was

talking about reading all these emails

and then seeing all the people that

Jeffrey's talking with about literal

pedoph it was okay it was literal

pedophilia, literal sex trafficking and

all that. And then he's like and then

you got arms dealing and government

contracts and moneyaundering and all

these other things and it's like

>> financial institutions, universities.

>> It's like are these people seem to be

talking like all the people that we

elect work for the people who work for

them.

Oh yeah.

>> And then they use this kind of stuff

>> discarding human lives essentially.

>> Yeah.

>> To advance those means.

>> Mhm.

>> I I can't I'm still trying to wrap my

obviously like everyone else out there.

It makes me angry, but like I'm still

trying to wrap my head around that

reality because we've heard these terms

for years where people talk about like

the world order and stuff and you're

like, "Well, here it is on

Javacgmail.com."

Yeah.

Yeah. I actually think that the whole

thing with the the babies and the young

girls and stuff is just like a hobby or

something they do for fun.

>> A hobby.

>> This is something they do for fun. It's

just another thing that I'm a

billionaire and these these kids are,

you know, just like you said, there's no

value to them and they're just

discarded. You know, we have 300 400,000

kids that go missing in the United

States. And then you just said it's like

the biggest sex trafficking ring, but I

don't know. I mean, we have the Boy

Scouts, which was tens of thousands. We

have the Catholic Church, tens and tens

of tens of thousands.

>> I mean, the juvenile um detention center

in Los Angeles came out, billion dollar

um settlements over 10,000

kids, you know. So, people need to like

understand, yeah, this is this is

massive and this this expands to over,

you know, governments and all over the

world. It's a global thing, but this is

a massive problem we have all over the

world that's been covered up for many,

many years. You know,

>> it's way bigger than any of us would

have liked to imagine. Like there are

far more people like this. And one of

the things I struggle with is like

do you think some people are just like

born with some kind of deranged gene

whereas they grow up they're like, "Oh,

that's what I need."

>> A deranged gene.

Well, I think having the financial means

to do what you want to do

>> amplifies that. So maybe there's a

little bit of let's say they weren't a

billionaire. How would they have access

to do all this this stuff? Maybe they

would be an abuser. Maybe they want to

just, you know, have sex with a young

girl. I don't know. But who has access

to that?

>> To actually make that step and do those

things is pretty darn difficult. Yes.

>> You know what I mean? You're I mean

there's a lot of um

>> there's a law you have to answer to. So,

you have to be pretty clever to try to

get around all this stuff. I bet look at

all the pedophiles out there. I mean,

it's a system that we could easily shut

down, but you know, there's so many

different uh access to children, you

know, Roblox and, you know, Instagram,

Snapchat. I mean, they could shut that

down so easily.

>> The porn industry, you know, those girl

those girls are trafficked in,

>> you know. So I mean this is some this is

a major major issue in our society that

it's it's going to take a long time to

you know to make a difference here but I

think for the first time people are

seeing with the Epstein survivors these

brave brave women that are coming

forward that aren't giving up and for

the first time ever because usually

you're just like okay yeah yeah we hear

your story you're out of here but this

is the first time ever that people

worldwide are behind us. Yeah.

>> Right. When we spoke out at Capitol

Hill, there was a total global shift in

the way people thought around survivors

and Congress got behind us. We met with

representatives. We're still meeting

with representatives. We were at the Pam

Bondi hearing right behind her. Who do

you think is working or helping us out

here? This is the people at that

hearing. People were right in her face

asking these tough questions, you know,

and she deflected and she looked through

her notebook.

>> The Dow The Dow's at 50,000.

>> That was so frustrating.

>> Oh god.

>> I mean, we can joke about it now, but I

was

>> the brightest bulb. I can't I can't

imagine how frustrating that is though

for you sitting there.

>> It just didn't make any sense. It was

like, are you kidding me? This is so

important that we're here. We're

standing here. We're representing 1,200

victims here.

and they're asking her to just like,

"Hey, look behind you, acknowledge

them." And she couldn't even, her face

didn't even move this bit.

>> It was like a So, there's images of it

that look haunting, but I would

encourage people to go watch the video

of when you and the other survivors

stood up because it was it was for like

a good minute or two, right?

>> Yeah.

>> And just watch Bondie because the video

in that case can't be taken out of

context. She never turns. And it's it

had the same vibes to me as like when a

serial killer is at their sentencing

hearing.

>> Oh yeah.

>> And and won't face the victim's

families.

>> Oh my god. I didn't think about that.

That's exactly how it felt.

>> She was so cold.

>> It was It was cold and it was just

disgusting. Like I really was like

shaking,

>> you know, because I just couldn't

understand when you take the time to go

there and you're doing the right thing.

Massie and you know um Korea like all

these people were speaking out and

saying you know do the right thing here

answer and just answer these questions

and she couldn't even do it she couldn't

even answer a question she didn't answer

one question right and then that moment

I think it was three different times

they were like can you turn around and

just say you're sorry or explain

something and it wasn't even she could

have just been like hey you know said

anything

but it was just like the total whole

feeling of being dismissed, that you

don't matter, you're unworthy,

>> like you're nothing to us. We're up here

and you're just little pieces of shits

over here that are in that are giving us

so many problems and we can't stand you.

It was more like that feeling of like

Galileain how Galain said about all

these girls, they're nothing. They're

worthless,

>> you know. Yeah, it was that same type of

feeling. um you know, but I think they

need to stop doing that because the more

they treat us like that, the more angry

we get and the more Congress gets behind

us and the more we're going to be in

their face. So,

>> hey guys, three quick things. Number

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>> Yeah. And it and this is the the wild

thing about this story. We've lived in

such divided times and it just pisses me

off so much. But with this story now

being something that has happened that

we cannot change, that we can now learn

as much as we can about it and try to

write I mean, you can't write the wrongs

that happen, but make things right

moving forward. You know, this is

everybody. Yeah.

>> Every administration left and right has

covered this up. Every Congress to this

point, left and right, has covered this

up. And you finally have some people on

both sides of the aisle pushing it.

There's still not enough. like there. I

I appreciate the people that are doing

it, but I wish it was unanimous, all 535

of them between Congress and Senate

doing this, but

>> you know, I've never seen

like Ro Con Kana and Thomas Massie both

have a very similar disposition. They're

very right here at all times. And Ro has

>> maintained that and Massie's maintained

that very well throughout this whole

process. I have never in my life seen

Thomas Massie lose his mind though like

he did on Pam Bondi. Like that was, you

know,

>> but he he lost his mind with facts.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> And upset about what he was showing. He

had the printouts right there. Like

explain this.

>> That's right.

>> And he he kept it together in that way.

She lost her mind by insulting him.

>> That's right.

>> It was like, why do you have to go to

when you have nothing left, you go to

insults. Yep.

>> Right. It was like out of like her

playbook of what to say to him and what

to say to this one and what to say to

this one,

>> you know? Um, it was out of Whose

playbook do you think that was out of?

>> It's all It's all political for sure.

Yeah. Deflect,

name call, do whatever. That's that's

what politics is. And like in my

lifetime pro, at least since John

Ashccraftoft, who was the AG under

George Bush, there's been this thing

that has very clearly happened where

attorney generals have gone from

supposed to be separate running the DOJ

as like their own ivory tower in that

way. I don't mean that in a bad way

>> to now they are a legitimate political

arm. We've seen that in every single

administration. Guys like Eric Holder,

Bill Barr, these guys belong in prison

>> for the things that they did provably,

you know,

>> but they're not because they're serving

their administration for political

means. And we just saw a verbal example

of that

>> the other day that unfortunately also

you as a victim and other victims have

to stand there and be like, "What the

[ __ ] are we even like? This isn't hard."

>> Yeah. You know, now

do you think

do you think anyone I'm gonna get to

Europe because you and I got to talk

about that, but do you think anyone in

the United States is going to go to jail

for this?

>> Probably not.

Probably not. And

regardless if they're willing to

actually do a thorough investigation, a

lot of the victims don't want to come

forward.

So without the victims, you know,

actually speaking out and

having that, you know, bravery to do so,

it's it's not going to happen. I mean,

most of them that I talked to don't want

to talk. So,

>> okay, wait a second. So, like the ones

who have been standing with you and

speaking for a while now, not just

recently, but who have been speaking out

against that, you're not referring to

those ones. you're referring to, if I'm

correct here, other victims that maybe

you have spoken with off the record who

just don't want to,

>> and I understand this, you know, I'm not

judging at all, but like who who are

afraid to come forward.

>> Yeah. I think most are afraid to come

forward.

>> Mhm.

>> Wow. Even now.

>> Mhm.

Yeah. Because when I mean, look what

happened to Virginia.

>> Yeah. I mean, they literally took out

pictures of her kids, you know, to make

her intimidate her to back down. Look

what she went through. I mean, nobody

wants to go through that.

>> I mean, I think people just want to get

accountability, like answers out, you

know, you know, put it out there so that

the public is aware of what's going on

like we're seeing now and hopefully

we'll continue to see. But actual

justice, like being deposed for a case

and going up against these types of

people who have endless funds, um,

that's going to be very difficult. I

mean, that's what they have working on

their side is they know who obviously

they abused and they've already probably

have an NDA with them. They probably

already silenced them. So, if someone

has already come forward, they've they

have already said, "Well, here's some

money and you be quiet." And they've

signed an NDA, so they can't speak out.

got to remember a lot of them cannot

speak out and then half of the ones

are Eastern European

are from other countries, you know, who

got their visa to work in the US who may

still live here and they also were

introduced to their husbands probably

through Epstein through that network,

>> you know what I mean? So, they maybe got

their jobs or they have

>> means of

of not wanting to ruin their lives right

now and they're embarrassed or they're

they're shameful. maybe they don't want

to come forward and even to understand

the part that they may have had in it.

Um I think they would rather just I mean

sometimes I question why I speak out. It

would have been much nicer if I had

stayed quiet. You know probably I would

I it's been a lot over the last few

years. It's a very brave thing though

and it's you know

>> well I realize that now because now

we're getting

>> we're more in the political

you know field of everything where

people are behind us but in the

beginning I'm always like why am I

speaking out like this is why am I going

through therapy you know and dealing

with this it was a lot of shame and I

lost a you know best friends partner you

know parents you know through all of

this I've lost a lot of people who don't

even support me you know Um and and that

has happened to a lot of survivors. A

lot of times

>> your parents through this.

>> Well, I don't I don't have like the

support of my family.

>> Yeah.

>> Why not?

>> I don't know. I mean, they knew they

knew um that I knew Epstein during those

years. He was sent flowers to my house.

They their their address and number was

in the little black book. Reporters used

to call them all the time. Um, my

parents lived less than an hour away

from Zoro Ranch in New Mexico, you know.

Um, they were aware of who this man was.

Um,

I don't know. I think when it just comes

to uh sexual abuse, a lot of people are

just like, I don't want to deal with

that. Maybe they have their own, you

know, issues uh around it um and things

they have to work out on their own. I'm

not quite sure, but I have lost a lot of

people, a lot of friends

through this process, which is the

reason which is the whole reason why,

Julian, is why I found the Survivor

Sisters to begin with,

>> cuz when I started speaking out in 2020

after I started losing family and

friends, I was like, well, who

understands me then if my own family and

friends don't want to? So, I started

reaching out to Virginia Grey and the

other survivors who spoke out in 2019

and before that. Those became my my

really good friends. Those became my

rock, you know. So that's the reason why

it's every year I've built on every year

it's built on like this, you know,

bravery is built on every year. It just

didn't happen like that, you know.

>> That is very hard for me to process

though because I I'm I'm not a parent

yet. I look forward to being one. I

can't possibly understand what that's

like until that happens. But obviously I

have friends and family where they've

experienced that and like I see through

them

>> what that is. And like once you bring

that child into the world, if you were

even a half decent parent, you would lay

down your life for them. And so I, you

know, this is just me thinking about

this, but

if my kid came to me and and I'm always

hesitant to say if I were blank, then I

would blank because in a lot of these

situations, you don't know.

>> Yeah. And I'm going to be a bit of a

hypocrite here because I feel like in

this one I [ __ ] know if my kid came

to me and said I don't care who it was

insert person here

abused me.

>> Mhm.

>> Not only am I going to support them,

they're going to have to drag my cold

dead hands off of their cold dead body.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I don't it it

doesn't process to me that you would

your family would know

>> that you knew this guy and were around

him and you had as you said discuss some

of this stuff with them before and then

you're brave enough to come forward and

now they

run away from it. Like were you were you

not close with your parents or

something? It's that's not registering

for me. Um, well, I I for sure believe

you. If anything happened to your child,

you would definitely stand up for them.

I'm the same way with my kids. Anybody

screws up my kids. Those are my heart.

Those are my hearts right there.

Nobody's messing with them. And they

know my kids will tell you like I stand

up for them in so many different ways

when they're just like, "Mom, back

down." But I always stick up for them.

>> Um, I think we come from maybe a

different generation than like parents

or grandparents. um they just were quiet

about everything and and I think kids

weren't supposed to speak up. Um you

know, kids weren't didn't feel

comfortable to speak up. Um I saw this

Mel Robbins podcast where she Yeah.

Isn't she great? I just love her. But

she was talking about when she was when

she went through a a sexual assault when

she was young

>> and you know the the psychologist Gabbor

Mate, I think his name is. Yeah. He was

telling her, um, it's not really what

happened to you. Of course, you know,

it's it's awful what happened to you,

but it's because you had no one to talk

to

>> when it happened. You couldn't go to

your parents and tell them,

>> you know, and and when that was

happening to me in the early 2000s, I

didn't have anyone I didn't have anyone

that I felt comfortable enough or safe

enough to call up or or go to and say,

"You know what? This person is doing

things to me that I don't think is

right, and I don't understand it, but I

need to talk to someone." I didn't have

that. And I feel like in that

generation, especially in the early

2000s, I mean, this is not even that

long ago, I know that I couldn't speak

out to people about it. I didn't feel

comfortable because we just didn't talk

about it.

>> So, I think things are changing now. We

got Tik Tok now. I mean, if anything

happens to anybody now who's like under

25, they're on TikTok spilling the

beans, you know. Um, in 2000 there

wasn't Tik Tok. So, um, or there wasn't

even like any way that I could be like

getting pictures, you know, you know, a

selfie here to get to get incriminating

evidence. I didn't we didn't have that.

>> This is actually a really important

greater point, too, you're making

because

the prime time of all these crimes.

>> Mhm.

>> And we can even look at Diddy and stuff

like that. It was happening during the

'9s and 2000s

>> and it's preocial media for the most

part,

>> pre like widespread internet 2.0. Oh

yeah.

>> And it was a time where people were

still separated from this,

>> right? People didn't start mainstreaming

this till like 2010. It came out in

2007, but people everyone started

getting in 2010, 2011.

So these people got used to a world

where all they had to do was make sure

they had their guy at page six on their

side and they were good.

>> Oh yeah. Yeah. They had control over the

media and every every outlet, every

everything that they didn't have to

worry about. I don't think they thought

that. I don't think they're smart enough

to think that far ahead to know social

media is what really ruined it for all

of them. It's all the people like you,

podcasters, or just any pe anybody at

home who's just on their phone just

reporting everything they see, copying

the files, putting it all out there. Now

that we have that,

>> that is what why everyone is like knows

what's going on. That's the only reason

why if this was literally 2010,

>> not much.

>> That's right. It's like I I have always

looked at it this way. If we discount

MySpace for a second, which was like the

pre-bootloader to the bootloader.

>> Yeah.

>> Facebook went started to go mainstreamy

in like 2007. It was around in 0405 06,

but it started to open up to the world

in 2007. We're sitting here in 2026,

>> which means that

>> think about a kid that was born in 2007.

They're 19.

>> And then think about your grandma who's

on Facebook who's 84.

They're the same age when it comes to

the internet. They're both 19 years old.

>> Yeah.

>> So, there's no one in society that is a

senior citizen or a having lived the

life and understood and seen the ups and

downs, the mistakes, the good, the

flaws, and everything of the internet

who exists.

>> Yeah. But even like 2006 to 2017, for

you to for you to put this type of

information out there on YouTube or

Facebook, you have to still be like a

creator to do that.

>> Of course. It's not even like today

where anybody can just pick up there and

give pick up their phone and just give

their opinions on things.

>> Makes the point even stronger.

>> Yeah. Even stronger. Yeah. You'd have to

be like a YouTuber back in 2015 and and

most people weren't. You know,

>> it's it it's it's funny too though

because you talk about these guys

couldn't see ahead to this. And I agree

with you. so clear that they couldn't

>> and yet like

>> a lot a lot of the worlds that these

guys come from they in everything else

they did in their life they thought

three four decades ahead.

>> Oh sure. Yeah.

>> You know my guy Allesie Alamman who

works who's been with me forever. He has

his own channel on YouTube. He did an

amazing documentary like tying together

Epstein to Leon Black to Steve Bannon

and everything. And if you look at like

Cambridge Analytica and like the

leftright fear politics machines that

came up online in 15 161 17 the money

for that started in as far back as we

can see 1991 or 1992 which means it was

probably before that.

>> So they're thinking 25 years ahead on

that

>> but they can't think about the dude who

goes like this and goes yo fam look at

what I just saw out of this

[ __ ]

>> Totally right.

>> Oh yeah. They didn't account for that

happening.

>> No they didn't. And that's really what

exploded these files.

>> That's right.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, you just got back from Dublin,

right?

>> And I don't know a lot about this yet. I

told you we talked yesterday and I was

like, "All right, let's save this for

the podcast." But apparently, at least

there and maybe some other places in

Europe,

>> there is some accountability that's

being taken. What's What do you know

about that? Well, because I lived my

first few years in England and then

graduated high school in Belgium and

spent half my life in Europe, I've done

a lot more European press than most of

the survivors, I think, do a lot of um

American press, but I do a lot of

international press. Uh just because I

know that uh a lot of the after after I

was a model, I had a um sorry, after I

was a model, I was a a scout, an

international scout for big agencies.

And so I would travel a lot to Eastern

European countries like Bratislava or

Lithuania and Poland.

>> And so I was still absorbed in this

world. Uh so I was seeing what was going

on and happening. So I have um like an

understanding of um of Jeffrey's ties to

that that part of the world in the ming

industry. And so um whenever and then

also my story started on the island

seeing Prince Andrew there and my story

ended in 2004 with a girlfriend that um

had a story about Prince Andrew. So, you

know, I do a lot of press over there

because of, you know, what I know. And

so, yeah, I went to uh Dublin and did

the Late Late Show and had a really

great conversation, you know, about uh

>> over there and met with uh some people

in England and had been doing some press

uh just to bring awareness and try to

corroborate the stories of others over

there. Ma mainly Virginia Dupra.

>> Yes. Yeah.

>> Rest in peace by the way. That's

>> tragic. She was very brave. I mean, she

was really out there

>> pushing it for years and years and

years.

>> Yeah, she was very brave.

>> Definitely. Definitely did some amazing

things for

>> representing the victims. But there were

who was a thief there? There's like a

>> was it someone in Norway has already

been arrested? And then my question for

you was are you hearing about like them

doing investigations now in England and

in Ireland on some of the people that

they have tied there?

Well, I mean, the justice departments in

these countries in Europe and

Scandinavia are very different from the

United States. As we know, in the US,

they haven't done anything, but in but

in in Europe, they're they're

investigating. Yeah. They're looking

into whoever was in the files for their

country. They're asking for the files to

do a further investigation. Um, and I

know they are in Ireland, I think

Lithuania, and Norway.

>> Good.

>> Um, yeah. So all these these people that

were mentioned the files, maybe they're

innocent, maybe they're not, but at

least look into it. Yes.

>> Right. At least take that next step and

and and

call for the files for their country or

flight logs or whatever and and do your

and do your research. So I don't know. I

love to see that these nations are doing

what um what they should be doing.

>> If enough of them do it,

maybe it puts some pressure even on the

big dog in the United States. If enough

of them do it and then see results and

their people like the people of those

countries then get the press of it and

they're like this what?

>> Yeah. It's so crazy because in the US

there isn't really the empathy. I don't

know why we're lacking we're lacking so

much empathy here. Even when I do media

that I don't know if they're just told

to be stone cold and have no feelings,

but I just hate doing media in the US.

And I I've done quite a few of the

major, you know, broadcast networks and

things and I just don't enjoy doing it.

And but when I go abroad, Ireland, the

UK, Germany, um, Australia, you know,

they're

>> they've been going in on this.

>> No, they just they go in, they care,

they want to get the answers, and then

they also want to do something about it,

right?

>> So, it's totally different. Like, what's

your story? And they have empathy for

your story and what you've gone through.

And then that empathy and then that

empathy feeds into you know um

connecting the dots and looking into um

who even it's in in their prime

ministers or people that are really

important you know they will do the

right thing and they either resign or

you know take further measures but at

least they do something. It's always to

do something in the US it's just like oh

yeah let's hear your story. Oh, that's

good. Okay. Or that's or that's great,

you know, and but what else happen? What

else happens after that?

>> You know, like,

>> oh my god, what about off camerara? Are

they like once the cameras go off, are

they like a real human?

>> No. Yeah. They just always have an

agenda.

>> So, they ask you questions and then you

say one thing about Trump that's leading

you to say something, then the headline

is about that. It's like I didn't even

talk about Trump. They like make you

just just to have a headline.

>> And I've always said, you know, not to

say that he's guilty or not guilty. It's

just that's not my agenda because I know

there's all there's so many other men

that are involved that were abused.

>> I know of many many girls who have gone

to that island and that are forced to

have sex.

>> Passport taken away and forced to have

sex with somebody they do not want to

have sex with.

>> Passport taken away.

>> They take your passport away. There are

girls that have tried to swim off that

island. Where do they think they're

going? I have no idea. But they're

scared, you know.

>> They're scared. That's not what they

were thinking of when they were naively

going to an island.

>> Um,

>> but I have girlfriends that were made to

go into a room and or or in the middle

of the night somebody comes in and and

just has sex with them and leaves, it's

it's really gross to be honest with you.

It's really gross. Um,

but I mean I've seen some of those names

in the files, but until a survivor comes

forward and says, you know, we're going

to rally behind this and and come

forward, um, most likely those men will

just get away with it.

home.

>> I I mean I

I think sometimes like when you look at

like content creators, there's people

take themselves way too seriously and

think it's way bigger than it is. It's

like, dude, you're talking to a camera.

It's not that big a deal. What I will

say when it comes to a story like this

that has released so much investigative

files for us to review that all these

shows put together and there's literally

millions. If people can keep their eye

on the ball with this and all review the

same evidence that we all have a chance

to review and do each of our little

parts to keep it on the front burner, if

you will. Maybe maybe we can get 10% of

what we deserve to get. I'd like 100%.

But you know what I mean. It's it's hard

not to be s I mean you know better than

anyone what I mean. It's hard not to be

cynical.

>> Yeah. I mean if the DOJ had just done

their job. The FBI the DOJ had just done

their job

and taken the people out of the files

and investigated them. the survivors and

the people would know you're doing

something because we would see actual

action happening, then they wouldn't

have had to release the millions of

files to the public,

>> right?

>> But you have to remember, they don't

care that the public sees all that. They

know they're going to be like, "Oh, I'm

disgusted by it for a few months and

then it's going to go away." You know

that that's the least of their worries,

just giving that to the American people

because they know nothing's going to

happen from that. What should have

happened was when they had it for 15

years before they released it to us or

20 years. How long has it been? 25 years

before they released it to us, they

should have done something about it.

>> Of course,

>> you know, these calls have been coming

in since the '9s. And the files only

start from the early 2000s. They don't

even go back to the '9s when the most

depraved [ __ ] was happening.

>> Yeah. I don't know. This is where it

gets into speculation. And I have to say

that cuz we'll never know. I mean, you

you didn't even come into contact with

him until 01. So, I guess you don't even

know, but

>> 2000,

>> you know, you talk about the '9s and

stuff. Jeffrey Epstein

in the '9s, especially, you go back to

the 80s with this for sure, but

especially the '9s once he's like the

man moneywise.

>> Yeah. He was

very well known in the highlevel New

York socialite circles, but he was not

known publicly

>> at all.

>> No, nobody knew him.

>> When Page Six did the story in September

2002

>> about him taking Bill Clinton on his

jet, then suddenly,

>> who's this Jeffrey Epstein guy? Then he

brings in Vicky Ward in March 2003 to do

this whole like he liked the attention

>> and then he got known. So, it's like

when I see these files begin, then I do

wonder what kind of incompetence within

every law enforcement agency and

espionage agency we have known to man

here in America might have occurred

>> at many levels at least prior to that

time. And now that you start to make

that case, what and I'm sure you ask

yourself this a lot more than I do, but

like why do you let him cop to a plea of

soliciting a prostitute? I think it was

like a barely underage like 17 year old

and then you know he basically had a

house arrest for all intents and

purposes. Why? There were we had the

whole they had the whole case. Well,

there were 43 accounts.

>> That's right.

>> Of young girls who came forward and had

the same exact stories of what was going

on.

>> Yeah. That sweetheart deal of just

saying they were a prostitute. They

weren't a prostitute,

>> you know. So,

well, I don't know. I what I know of of

of Jeffrey Epstein from back then is he

did not want anyone knowing about what

was going on. He was he was not public.

Nobody knew about him, and that's the

way that he liked it. I think he was

furious when when in 2002 uh Page Six

did a story about him. He did not want

his name out there because he wanted to

be able to be incognito and nobody

really know what he was doing.

>> Um

and I think the more known he got, the

more scared he was because he was

supposed to be under the radar.

>> That's interesting.

>> Oh. Yeah. He was always under the radar.

Any any event you would ever see him at,

he'd pop in and pop out. He was not a

playboy. He was not in the limelight.

You never saw pictures of him of him. He

never really saw girls around I mean

around him like that.

>> Um

so he didn't he didn't like that that um

Vanity Fair did the article about him.

He was furious about that as well.

>> Was furious after it came out but he

agreed to do it. He brought her over and

did that's that's what I wonder if

there's like a

>> he had to do it. Yeah.

>> He had to do it. Why do you say he had

to do it? Well, because people are

starting to understand about, you know,

who he was.

>> And so he felt like he had to, you know,

just put out put it out there of what he

was doing and more like a philanthropist

and like, you know, um, you know, just

just trying to clear the air of who he

was without saying what he was really

doing, you know, and and his and his

ties, you know, to people. So, it was

kind of on the on the surface.

>> It wasn't uh like what we knew what we

know now about him.

>> Of course.

>> Yeah.

>> I never thought of it that way.

>> Yeah. No, he didn't he did not want his

name and who he was out there. Yeah. Cuz

he would call a lot of us and been like,

"Are you talking to the to the media?

Are you talking to the reporters calling

you? Don't say anything. Don't say

anything."

>> Oh, he would.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I would I would

never have said anything back then.

>> I mean, I only started speaking out

because he died,

>> right?

>> I would never have if he was alive

today, even I wouldn't even be here. Did

you

and I want to get to your story in a

second and we could do that linearly,

but in the years between 04 and when you

last saw him in 2019 when he died,

obviously, you know, you were abused. So

there was compartmentalization of that

that went on and everything.

But did you live in a constant or more

like subconscious fear of him?

>> Maybe subconscious, but I think after I

left New York and moved to Los Angeles

in 2004, I didn't have any contact with

him. Uh he was starting to be like found

out uh you know the articles that were

coming out and he was being

investigated. So, I think he slowed down

a little bit. I think from 2004 to 2006.

Um, I think those were the years he

slowed down because he definitely picked

it back up later. But, um, I just went

on with my life.

>> You know, I was married by 2006, you

know, was pregnant by 2006. I just

literally did not think about that man

again. And the stuff that I heard like

in the news, I just I just didn't read

the news. And um and I kind of just

didn't even want to go there like kind

of in my heart that he was involved with

like underage girls, you know, someone

who who has put their hands on you and

and trying to think of him as a

pedophile and stuff. It just it really

grossed me out. So, and they understand

nobody really gave a [ __ ] back then. It

wasn't like big news like it is now. So,

um I just kind of went on with my life

for the next 15 years and didn't really

think that much of it. Um,

>> yeah.

>> Now, you said you were born in England

and you were I think you were telling me

off cam that your father was in the

military, so you traveled around Europe

a lot as a kid.

>> Yeah, my father was a navigator in the

Air Force.

>> Um, he went to Colombia and he studied

electronic warfare, you know, he's in

electronic warfare and air in the air

force and, you know, he was stationed at

at the Pentagon and then we moved to uh

Belgium where he worked at NATO. So,

yeah, my dad worked on your resume.

>> Yeah, he worked on a really important uh

um you know, high-profile things I would

always ask him about. He'd say, "Well,

I'd tell you, but I'd have to kill you."

So, like, I didn't really know so much

about what was going on. My dad was, you

know, he was a great father. you know,

he he taught me a lot about life and

gave me a lot of really good morals and

I did, you know, I had everything I ever

wanted growing up, you know.

>> You know, and then, you know, graduated

high school in Belgium and then started

modeling. Um,

>> so you were never in America really? No,

I was in Yeah. How How long were you in

America as a child?

>> Half my half my young child life. So,

you know, I lived in Virginia when my

dad was at the Pentagon. So,

>> Right. That would make sense that one.

So, but either way, like was it hard for

you constantly having to pick up and go

somewhere new and have all new friends

and I mean you're clearly a very

friendly person, but still like you have

relationships with a ton of people and

then suddenly it's like oh we're going

somewhere new again. Was that difficult?

>> Well, I hated it growing up. Every like

2 3 4 years we'd move somewhere

different. But, you know, in hindsight

it was like the best thing that could

happen to me, you know, because you just

get adjusted. you go here this new state

in the US and then you go to this

country in Europe and then you're back

in the US you know you're back in Europe

and you know I have so many different

friends in different places and just

adapting to different types of people

and I've always had a very outgoing

personality I'm a definite extrovert

even though I have introvert introverted

moments where I definitely spend a long

a lot of time by myself um I do a lot of

self-care by myself uh go to the movies

or have dinner by myself a lot you know

>> but I Um, I'm an extrovert at heart. Uh,

and um, I've always wanted to be in like

the modeling and entertainment world.

That was a big drive for me, even as a

little girl.

>> Oh, yeah. I was a huge I was always that

one in front of the camera, you know,

>> doing doing all that stuff. So, my my

father and my mother and father

supported that. My mom put me in beauty

pageantss, you know, they took me to New

York City at 16, 15, 16 years old to

meet with the agencies, went into Ford

models and Elite Models, you know, and

and then I um I was in a contest at 16

years old and flew to New York um at 16

years old. Um I went up to the top of

the Trump Tower

when I was 16, which is so crazy. That

one at Columbia Colombia Columbus

Circle,

>> you know, and I was at I was at the top

of that looking down. Is it there in New

York City? I was looking on your

>> Yeah, it's just off just off the wall

here. You can't see it, but it's 57th

Street up on

>> Fifth Avenue, right?

>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 57 Fifth. No, not

Fifth. On the west side,

>> Trump Tower.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On the west side.

>> Well, there's that one on Fifth, too.

But she's

>> Yeah, that's where he lives.

>> The Columbus Circle.

>> Columbus Circle. Yeah.

>> Right off the park.

>> Yeah. Right off the park.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Yeah. I remember going up there and met

like some country m country music star

that I can't remember his name. Um, but

I remember looking out over New York

like, "Oh, I'm gonna live here one day,"

>> you know? So, I was always really into

uh just kind of like manifesting

whatever I wanted. So, kind of put it

out there and then, you know, was in

Belgium, graduate high school there. And

I was working like in Brussels,

Amsterdam, and went to London and then

moved to Miami in the late 90s.

>> That's a that's a switch up.

>> It was awesome.

>> I'll bet it was. Miami's I like Miami

for four days. It's a great town, but I

feel like if I don't leave after 4 days,

bad things will happen. But

>> yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, but in the '9s

when you probably weren't even born yet,

but like in the in the in the in the

late 90s, it was like the heyday. All

the all the stars were there and it was

like all the modeling agencies were

there. It was really really fun.

>> Now, what was it like when you're 15 16

cuz now like you can look back on it as

an adult having way more understanding

of the world. Was it a would you

describe it as somewhat of a normal

experience dealing with the modeling

agencies or would was there anything

that now you're like well that's kind of

weird that they did it this way or that

way.

>> Are you kidding me? Like everything is

kind of weird now when I look back on

it.

>> Yeah. Joe worked in it as well. He he

knows what you're talking about. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean it was just accepted the

way that people were back then. And you

have to understand the mauling industry

back then was you had to be a certain

height and weight and look. you had to

be kind of special in a way. Um, it's

just different now. Now it's like all

different types and anyone can model.

But like back then it was very serious.

So you had to take it, you know, it was

a career and you had to travel around

the world. I went to Greece. I went to

Cape Town and like build your book for

three or four months, you know. Um, but

yeah, in the States you definitely

noticed that there were older agents

that would take you to parties and you

would be around, you know, younger

girls, older men. That was so normal.

Um, you know, maybe they would give you

drugs and alcohol.

>> It was very normal.

>> Even at 15, 16.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. You could get in the

clubs.

>> Well, that's crazy.

>> Crazy.

>> It was just It was just the way it was,

you know. Um, so when I finally met

Epstein, it was like, oh, this is this

is kind of how it is. I mean, the women

agents would do the same thing. Would

take you to these dinner parties with

old men all the time, like, don't you

have anybody like our age?

>> But 15, 16's crazy. Well, the models

back then started around 13, 14, 15.

>> We all started really young where

nowadays they don't start you till maybe

17, 18, 19, 20. It's older now

>> still. Like,

>> it's weird no matter what. But like the

blatancy, I don't think that's a word,

but you know what I mean, of having a

14, 15year-old

at dinner with with old rich dudes or

whatever cuz they're the new model and

then you wonder how something like

Epstein happens like

>> Yeah. Exactly. It was just the time.

>> Did your parents know that was

happening?

>> Um,

no, probably not. They never asked me.

>> And they never asked you about that?

>> No. I think everyone, all the parents, I

mean, didn't know. I mean, I know of

many parents that would line up their

girls to meet with John Casablanca at

Elite Models, and when they go into the

room, they were sexually assaulted

before they came out, you know, to go

back with their parents. John Casablanca

who was tall and good-looking and

charming and everybody loved him.

>> Yeah. Jerald Marie, Jeanl Brunell, you

know, all these these big agents who,

>> you know, were they were assaulting a

lot of girls. I mean, this is a known

fact. So,

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And it it it's amazing that

>> it took until like Harvey Weinstein in

2017 for people to realize, oh, there's

a casting couch

in all these industry. Like, it just

>> Yeah. Unfortunately, when you have that

power, someone like Harvey, it's like,

"Oh, you really want this movie role?

Show me how bad you want it." Right.

>> Like this whole thing is just That's why

I got out of the acting

>> world. I just I couldn't even handle it.

How bad it was.

>> When did you get into that?

>> Well, I was always like a young actress

>> doing acting classes since I was like,

you know, 19 or so.

>> Okay.

>> My I mean, my first film was with Oliver

Stone. I booked a role.

>> No kidding.

>> 98 99 right out of high school. Well, I

I started auditioning in Miami any given

Sunday.

>> Oh, you were in any given Sunday?

>> Yeah, I was opposite Jamie Fox.

>> No [ __ ]

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> It's a great movie.

>> Yeah, it was a great movie. Really great

cast.

>> Six inches in front of your face.

>> Wow. Yeah, you're good. Um and then

>> I was like that would suck. Don't ever

do that.

>> It was a good movie, but it was a great

cast, you know, but I started realizing

right off the bat, oh shoot, this is how

it works,

>> you know.

>> Yeah. I mean, Jeffrey would send send us

on auditions with big big movie.

>> Yeah. And we're seeing that and we're

seeing even darker stuff than that in

emails just sending

>> girls to gynecologist, skin care people,

oh she doesn't get out of high school

till 400 p.m. or something.

>> But that So do you looking back on it

when you were 15 16? So when you come to

New York for the first time, how long it

sounds like you were alone when you went

there. You stay there alone.

>> Mhm.

>> At 15 16.

>> 16. So they put you up at a hotel.

>> Yeah.

>> You have your own room.

>> Mhm.

>> How long What was the longest time you

were there by yourself?

>> Well, that time I was just there for a

week. So you usually go for a week or

two at a time. Yeah.

>> Well, that's like a week or two.

>> I know.

>> In New York City without your parents

and everything.

>> Mhm.

>> Do you looking back on it,

>> were there things that happened there,

too?

>> Well, that's normal for to bring a

16-year-old 15, 16, 17year-old Yeah. to

New York City by yourself. They put you

in a mall apartment and then you go out

with the promoters and you go to the

nightclubs and you get the VIP room and

you're around all these celebrities.

That's that was pretty normal.

>> Um yeah, I mean you were there hanging

out with Leo next to you and all sorts

of celebrities and things since we were

really young.

>> Did you ever say I'm 15? I mean, I don't

think anybody really cared like that we

were that girls were underage or I don't

think people really cared. I think it

was just kind of accepted. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> That's hard to pro like that's really

hard for me to process. I mean I mean I

know this stuff happens.

>> Yeah.

>> But

the normaly with which you're talking

about oh yeah they all did it 13 14 15.

Yeah. You know, you come for a week, you

stay without your parents. They take you

to clubs and promoted. It's like,

>> yeah, but you're supposed to be

protected. Like, who's protecting you,

>> right?

>> You know what I mean? And so, you feel

like you're protected. I'm in a mall

apartment. Okay. Okay. I go out to these

clubs. They want you to socialize. Your

agent is usually with you.

>> You know what I mean? I mean, agents

would give you some coke or something in

the bathroom. Like, agents would give

you during that time, not now, but

during that time, you know, it was it

was definitely things were more

accepted. Um, then you would go to your

agency and you would get your castings

for the day and you'd run around to

castings literally to hotel rooms where

there's photographers. Like you would go

to hotels and meet with photographers at

hotels. It was the strangest thing. Um,

and then they would book you on jobs

where you're flying to Hawaii or the

Caribbean, you know, for a few days

shooting with these people, you know,

and I mean there's a lot of women there

and most of the time nothing really

happened, but every now and then you

were with a photographer who wouldn't

leave you alone, you know, so there was

a lot of these things going on.

>> Did you ever feel pressured to have to

hook up with somebody?

>> I mean, I guess I would say yes. I mean,

I think I felt pressured quite a few

times. Um,

yeah, I would say yeah, definitely yes.

I think any model would say yes. And on

many occasions, it's probably happened

to most models and actresses. Um, and

then you would go back to your agency

and tell them, you know, so and so, this

French photographer wouldn't keep his

hands off me. he was touching my nipples

or like you know you know putting his

hand by my private like things just you

know little things like that you know

little well I mean I would say something

like that to an agent and they were just

like oh it's just how he is you know

things like that you know so things were

just kind of accepted.

>> Yeah. And then when I became a Ford

model, I mean, Katie Ford used to take

us to these parties and these charity

events where you're all these girls at a

table and then all the rich older men

would sit next to you and you'd have to

have conversation with them,

you know, and she would tell you how to

like, yeah, use your knife. I already

knew how to do this, but like use your

knife and fork, you know, elbows on the

table. Like they would want you to be

like a little lady, you know, while