are you saying that you recommend that a

woman looking for a partner gets off the

birth control pill until they find one

yeah I mean researchers found when women

who were partnered to attractive men

went off hormonal birth control they

were more attracted to their partner but

for women who were partnered with less

attractive Partners they became less

attracted to their partners and reported

being less sexually

satisfied it's quite frightening Dr

Sarah Hill is a leading research

psychologist and Professor uncovering

the shocking effects the contraceptive

pill has had on women relationships and

society and what we can do about it

there's been nothing more instrumental

to women's ability to be able to achieve

independence than the birth control pill

and so we're very Cavalier and just

giving it to people oh well you should

go on it for this and you should go on

it for that but it has huge costs and

when I started to dig into the research

I found there's at least five different

things the birth control pill does to

change who we are and these risk factors

they're swept under the rug by their

doctors who are prescribing it first it

changes our emotional states with

increased risk for developing anxiety

and depression and then it influences

our ability to put on muscle mass and it

can also affect our sexual function

because it turns off that estrogen surge

that makes us feel sexier and makes us

want to have sex and there's more but we

also know that it affects men in two

different ways and this has implications

for society around us I'll tell you why

so so what are the alternatives for

women let's dive down into that first

this has always blown my mind a little

bit 53% of you that listen to the show

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much

Dr Sarah

Hill what is the mission that you're on

if you had to sort of encapsulate it

into a couple of sentences all of the

work you're doing into a couple of

sentences and the impact it has on

people like me but also my partners my

mother my sisters um who read and

understand your work what is that

mission um is to help women understand

themselves and I think that you know

part of that is doing the science that

helps to uncover the insights that help

women understand themselves and then

also being able to communicate that to

women um I think that you know for a

very long time because of the way that

medicine has been set up um the the

focus has been primarily on men um and

most of the things that we think that we

know about health and functioning in the

human body and brain is based on

Research conducted in men and so it's

taking that back and helping women

actually understand themselves as

themselves so would you say that this

conversation is is just for women no

absolutely not no this is a conversation

for women for women's partners and those

who love women right and so I think that

it's a conversation for everyone I have

these conversations because I'm

interested in the subject matter and as

I read through your work at the top of

your work I saw that you know you really

have a focus towards Women's Health and

women's issues but I can't explain how

unbelievably fascinating and

enlightening it was for me as someone

who is a boyfriend and a partner to a

woman um but also when when we talk

about the evolutionary psychology that

sort of is intertwined throughout your

work I was able to understand so much

about me as a man and the way I I am and

the way that I develop and my

testosterone and all those kinds of

things and also attraction and mating

preferences and all these things from

looking through your

work why why are you so focused on this

subject matter what is it what's the

sort of in your heart I mean for me it's

really fascinating to consider the way

that hormones influence who we are and

then to T think about something like the

birth control pill which almost all

women are on at some point in their life

and understanding that this actually by

changing women's hormones has the impact

of kind of fundamentally changing some

really important things about themselves

I mean this is really huge and this has

consequences for everything ranging from

who women are attracted to and might be

choosing as partners to women's mental

health right and it could end up having

consequences on the shape of the world

around us like we already know know that

birth control has had an impact on

women's ability to do things like go to

school and get Advanced degrees and we

see this played out when we look at

College classrooms that are becoming

inre increasingly female and one of the

big reasons for this is the birth

control pill it's like by allowing women

to know with almost perfect certainty

that they're not going to get pregnant

this has allowed women to make plans

which means that they can dream bigger

and achieve more than most of us would

have ever dreamed possible like 50 or

100 years ago right and so the pill

changes everything right by changing

women we change the world this has

implications for women this has

implications for their partners and this

has implications for society around us

we're seeing some of the downstream

positive impacts of this and then

there's also some other sort of

Downstream consequences which I think

society's now trying to understand and

contend with and I think one of them you

mentioned there is that more women in in

classrooms I think more women are

college educated now in the US or

becoming college educated and they're

running more and more and more um and

it's interesting because there's a study

which you site in your work I think it

was in your book where I read it that

shows women still have a preference for

men who have more resources and I was

wondering isn't this doesn't this create

a little bit of a a fundamental issue

because if more and more women have more

and more resources in many cases much

more than men but they have a preference

for men that have more resources isn't

there isn't there an issue here yeah no

there's actually there is an issue there

and in fact there have been people

including my former uh Mentor David bus

who who have talked about this idea that

there's a mating crisis going on and

that women who are becoming increasingly

college educated and you know getting

access to resources of their own that

they do continue to exhibit an increased

preference for partners with resources

women are what we call hypergamous right

which means that we like to mate up in

terms of achieve

and educational attainment and when you

have a populace like we do in the US of

women who are now on average more

educated than men it makes it more

difficult to find a a suitable partner

if you're a woman with an advanced

degree and you want somebody who has at

least as much education for you that's

going to lead to a more narrow pool of

mates and in fact what we see is that

there are an increasingly like large

number of women who are just choosing

not to get married and are choosing to

stay single and in fact there's a

wonderful um book called all the single

ladies that is about this very

phenomenon and um women are increasingly

choosing to opt out of long-term mating

if they're not able to find the

relationship that they want so two

questions there on the first point is

how do we know that women are dating

upwards and to the right right we know

that women are dating upwards because

that's what women Express a preference

for and it's also who women tend to

marry so when you look at um for example

uh you know data looking at um the

education levels of people who get

married and the age of of people when

they get married women generally will

marry somebody who's older and generally

earns more money than they do themselves

um and you know this is something that

isn't specific to the US this is

something that we tend to find um

cross-culturally that women tend to

express a preference for this and yes it

has become more common for women to be

open to partnering with people who earn

less money than themselves for example

or have less education in themselves

than what it used to be um but it's

still not what it would be if women were

actually more willing to make that

tradeoff what we see is that instead of

choosing to marry down what many women

are choosing to do is simply not get

married at all are they making that

choice or is it just a lack of good

options I think yes and yes right I

think that they're making that choice

because there isn't there aren't good

options so I think that many women feel

um the the constraint of the fact that

there's not as many partners available

as you know that have the qualities that

they're looking for and a long-term

partner and as a result of that they're

just making the choice when it's between

that like you know just staying single

and not partnering with somebody that

they desire or partnering with somebody

who has fewer resources than they do or

less education than they do themselves

they're choosing the former they're

instead choosing to be single instead of

um having to partner with somebody who

doesn't you know sort of meet what their

exacting standards are are are they

still having sex yeah you know that's a

good so sex is down like like sex is

trending downward um what we tend to see

is that people are having a lot less sex

than they used to they're having sex

later um they're having less they fewer

uh people are not virgins and that's a

double negative more people are virgins

when they're graduating high school and

college than there were in the past this

is becoming increasingly common it's

also really interesting when you

consider that in face of the fact that

we have something like hormonal birth

control where we have birth control

where you have you know an opportunity

for men and women to be able to have sex

without the having to have the fear of

pregnancy and yet people are having less

sex and that's a very complicated issue

that requires a lot of untangling to get

to the bottom of but one of those

factors is the fact that it's harder for

um you know imagine that you're a

college aged woman and you were looking

for somebody who at least is you know on

par with you in terms of their

educational attainment um most college

campuses are like 60% female and just

simply playing the odds I mean women are

going to have a harder time finding

somebody within their pool that they can

get together with and this is going to

mean less less dating for some of these

women and and less sex if women have

more money and more Independence as a

result of that money and success and

education why don't they just date down

as in why don't they date men that are

broke right yeah well you know we have

inherited this mating Psychology from

our distant ancestors who are very much

more reliant on men for things like

provisioning resource access and even

protection than what contemporary women

need and this is because throughout most

of our evolutionary history um we spent

our lives you know having to be pregnant

regularly lactating caring for young

children um and we're very heavily

dependent on the ability um of our

partner to gain access to things like

food and the other resources that we're

not able to get access to when we are

you know very pregnant or dealing with

young children like I don't know if

you've ever gone hunting before or met a

2-year-old but like the two things don't

mix right the children are loud they're

not going to allow you to sneak up on a

buffalo um it's not an ideal situation

for women so women historically have

been very dependent on men for resources

and we've inherited that that brain

because over the course of evolutionary

history women who would have placed an

emphasis on you know choosing Partners

who have these kinds of qualities they

would have been more likely to have

surviving Offspring who then passed that

tendency or that preference onto their

offspring who'd pass that preference

down to their offspring and so human you

know contemporary human women even

though we're able to gain access to

resources of our own we still have that

preference right we've inherited that

preference from our successful ancestors

because women who had that preference

would have performed better than women

who didn't pay attention to that sort of

thing so oftentimes people think things

are the way they are because of a

patriarchy or because of sort of social

factors yeah but you're saying that

there are sort of innate biological

differences and evolutionary differences

in men and women that go beyond our sort

of sexual organs and stuff oh yeah no

absolutely yeah you know in fact the

patriarchy which just refers to you know

male control of

resources wouldn't really exist if women

didn't desire resources and their

Partners um because the reason that men

tend to control a lot of resources is

because women demand resource access on

the part of their partners and if women

didn't care then men wouldn't work so

hard to get access to them you know

there's this really great quote by

Aristotle Onasis where he once said

without women all the power and money in

the world would be completely

meaningless and I think that there's a

lot of wisdom in that men work so hard

to control the resources not because men

together are banding you know together

and trying to hoard the resources and

keep them from women I don't think that

that's really how the world works and I

think if you have a look around we'd see

that that's not really how the world

Works instead it's an epiphenomenon of

the fact that men are competing amongst

you know amongst whoever else has access

to resources to get resources of Their

Own right and because women value this

in their choice of Partners oftentimes

men will go to Greater lengths to get

them right one of the reasons not the

only reason but certainly one of the

reasons that we see that more men tend

to be in um you know positions of being

a CEO for example is because oftentimes

men are more willing to make the

tradeoffs that you have to make to get

into those positions because men are

wired that way right and the reason that

they're wired that way is because

they've inherited these Tendencies to

want this despite the costs

because it would have paid off in terms

of being able to attract better Partners

a greater number of Partners right and

then being able to have your children do

better right and so you know the

patriarchy yes that is something that

exists right we do tend to see that men

tend to control resources more

frequently than women in most societies

around the world um but this isn't

because men are banding together and

trying to keep exclude women instead

this is just a product of men's evolved

psychology um trying to work as hard as

they can to get access to resources in

part because women require them and men

are much more likely to take risks

aren't they as you say so I was as you

were speaking I was thinking about the

the gambling statistics that I read that

said the vast majority of gambling

addicts are are men so so I was just

thinking about that in the context of

like entrepreneurship and these kinds of

things is that to say that men are going

to be more

entrepreneurial yeah yeah you know I

would think so yes and and the reason

being that that it is about risk right

and women often times um again you know

a lot of this has to do with this this

the psychology that we've inherited and

and throughout most of our history women

were caring for young children I mean

this was you know kind of what our

bodies made us just have to do it's like

our our bodies are wired for having

babies right and this doesn't mean that

this is what women should do right or

what women need to do or that you know

that that this is somehow destining

women to do one you know this set of

activities but instead throughout most

of our history we spend a lot of our

time pregnant and caring for young

children and that has selected for our

psychology to be very risk sensitive and

risk averse and what we tend to see is

that women are more risk averse than our

men and we can see this play out in

terms of things like um gambling right

we know that overwhelmingly men tend to

be the ones who are gambling addicts

relative to women but also in terms of

good risks right because you do see

something like being a being an

entrepreneur for example which is

something that does come with a pretty

big risk attached to it meaning that you

know there's a big boom and bust um but

it the the risk associated with the

possibility of a bust um is something

that women's uh psychology is a is a

little bit less tolerant of relative to

men's I think one of the interesting

observations I've had as a investor but

also as an entrepreneur myself is that

there may be data to support the fact

that more men are likely to start

businesses but it doesn't necessarily

mean they're better at it and part of

that links what you said about this

relationship with risk because being

prone to risk in business doesn't

necessarily mean you're going to be good

at entrepreneurship and I often tend to

find that when you have a woman leading

a business they're much more accurate

and honest with their forecasting and

much more um yeah realistic about what

the business is actually capable of and

men tend to over

forecast um in terms of business

performance they tend so but then also I

think it's interesting because I had

Kevin o who's the shark on Shark Tank in

the USA say that in his portfolio of

investments from Shark Tank the best

performing Investments that he had were

women and I think again I think from

memory what he was saying was when it

comes to forecasting and um taking C

more calculated risks wom women tend to

be better at that than men right which

is an interesting it's interesting yeah

no I think that it's totally spoton um

that you know men tend to be riskier and

and they tend to have a little bit more

hubris I mean there there's a tendency

um to assume that they're going to and

have an exaggerated belief about how

successful they're going to be because

in part you know I think it It

ultimately boils down the to the

differences in our mating psychology and

then also the psychology of of parenting

compared to provisioning and I think

that for men um you know seeing the

world in a way that's distorted in terms

of assuming that things are going to be

better than they are is going to allow

them to be able to better attract mates

for example because they're buying their

own story you know it's like they're

buying their own story about how great

everything is going to be even if it's

not necessarily all that great um this

leads people to take risks and and with

big risks come big rewards and

historically evolutionarily for men

those rewards could potentially

translate into additional mating

opportunities that have a direct impact

on men's ability to pass down genes for

women it's not so much you know because

even if you have the best idea ever

that's going to get you access to the

greatest number of mates possible the

number of offspring that a woman can

potentially have into the future is

dependent completely on the limits of

her own reproductive biology so a woman

with access to 10 Partners can only pass

down the same number of genes as a woman

with access to one whereas the same

hasn't been true for men right for men

who have access to 10 Partners this can

lead to 10 times as many offspring as

what they can have if they have access

to one and this creates an asymmetry in

the potential benefits um Fitness

benefits related to men and women um

from winning big right and so men's

psychology is geared toward wanting to

do things that are and and having their

brain tell themselves stories about how

successful things are going to be to act

as a carrot that then leads them to want

to pursue those types of things even

when it's highly risky so if I become a

billionaire yeah then I can afford to

and I will

attract potentially hundreds of

thousands of Partners and then I can

have hundreds of thousands of kids

because I can afford to and I'm going to

have so much interest because I'm a high

resource High status male whereas a

woman if she becomes a billionaire she

can only have one kid every nine months

or 12 months whatever it is yeah yeah

and that's actually there's in

evolutionary biology there's a principle

behind that it's called the baitman

principle it refers to the fact that

men's fitness can increase with each

partner they have access to and for

women it tops out after one right so the

potential reproductive returns from

having access to novel Partners is

greater for men than it is for women

right and this does not mean that this

is what most men do right most men don't

translate their increased uh their

increased status and their increased

access to Resources by gaining access to

an AS astronomical number of Partners um

but historically that's something that

men sometimes do right if we look at

history um you'll see in particularly in

polygynous cultures where you have men

who are able to have access to multiple

partners at the same time those men who

have the most resources and have the

highest status tend to have multiple

wives right they tend to have a greater

number of children right and we are the

descendence of people who would

sometimes make that decision right and

so what we tend to see is that that has

shaped men's mating psychology and

shaped men's achievement motivation

psychology in ways that helps to promote

um you know gaining access to resources

in part because gaining access to

resources leads to a greater Fitness

return than what gets um is available to

women from doing the exact same thing

this wasn't a long time ago in human

history either because my granddad in

Nigeria mhm I I've never met the guy um

I don't believe he's still alive I've

never been close to to him um but I was

told that he had 10 or 14 wives right

and so I was told that I have 30 40

cousins in Nigeria right yeah I mean I'm

doing okay financially but I probably

don't have the means the means to meet

them all and become friends with all of

them um but uh yeah I uh that's pretty

pretty striking that just sort of one

generation above my dad was this a man

that had multiple wives and so when you

say that that's him that could be part

of passed down to me in some way yeah

that sort of proclivity to have to want

to acquire more resources so that I can

support more people it's quite

frightening I don't think that it's

something to be frightened of I think

that you know when we understand the the

tendencies that we've inherited I

actually think that it gives us greater

appreciation for the kinds of decisions

that we actually end up making why is it

that you know especially in um cultures

like the US and I think about in

European culture we're monogamous ly

mating you know species we we form these

long-term pair bonds and so then we also

have to ask ourselves you know given

that this is something that is possible

for men right to increase their um their

reproductive output simply by gaining

access to new partners why is it that

most men don't do this like what are the

benefits when you look at contemporary

hunter gatherer groups where humans are

living in ways that are more similar to

um the way that our ancestors likely

lived than what we do currently what you

tend to see is that those children who

have an investing father around their

probability of survival is vastly higher

than that of the children of women who

do not have an investing partner around

one of the other parts of the answer is

that women generally don't want to share

right and so what you get is um by men

being willing to restrict their own what

we call reproductive value which just

refers to the number of potential

children that they can have into the

future

that increases the quality of partner

they're going to be able to have because

most women don't want to share and so if

you are a woman who's of high value

meaning that you have a lot of the

qualities that men desire in their

Partners you can be really picky and say

no I'm not going to share and so if you

want to mate with me then that means

that you're going to have to make some

decisions because you know imagine that

you're a man and just based on all the

qualities that you have let's say that

your mate value is and let's assume that

mate value has a 1 to 10 scale okay so

there's a 1 to 10 scale and you're a

seven right all the qualities I'm just

I'm I'm not talking about you I'm

talking the Royal you and what if I to

do to be an eight well the reason the

reason the reason I'm making you and

again I'm saying the Royal you of seven

is because so just bear with me here

your value of seven is because you are

not really willing to commit to a

long-term relationship right so you're

you have all these resources and you

have you know and you've got your

attractiveness you've got your good

jeans and all the other things a dog

right yeah but you're not yeah exactly

you've got a podcast you got all this

like great stuff going for you but

you're not willing you're not going to

just you know commit your resources and

to to one person um and you meet

somebody who's just you know she's

amazing and she she also has a podcast

and she's gorgeous and and she's a nine

you can increase your value to her just

by Will being willing to invest by being

willing because women desire that

because women generally place a priority

on somebody's willingness to stick

around and continue invest to continue

to invest resources in just her you can

increase your value from a seven to a

nine or a 10 just by virtue of being

willing to commit how does a woman know

if I am high status or not like AR there

ways that I can just like signal that I

am if I go to the gym and then I don't

know I got nice after shaven perfume and

I'm wearing I don't know a cool t-shirt

what are what are the cues how does the

brain know that I'm a good reproductive

partner right yeah no that's a really

great question it's really interesting

because um a lot of the qualities that

men value in their Partners like for

women are things that are immediately

available just based on physical

appearance because we know that men have

um placed a priority on cues related to

fertility and reproductive value and

reproductive value is just essentially a

person's reproductive shelf life I mean

I was reading in your book about how

mating and attraction preferences change

for woman throughout her cycle yeah so

throughout a woman's 28 day cycle does

she always want a nice guy no so women's

partner preferences and the types of

qualities that women tend to prioritize

in their choice of Partners do change

across the menstrual cycle um and this

changes with our sex hormones so during

uh the early part of the menstrual cycle

both sets of sex hormones so our our

estrogen and progesterone which is our

second uh primary sex hormone they are

low and then as estrogen begins to

increase which is something that happens

as eggs start to mature in the ovary and

as the eggs are maturing they release

estrogen and as an egg as a dominant egg

is chosen and um begins to fully mature

so that way it will be released at

ovulation which is how many days into

the cycle um usually estrogen really

starts to Surge right around day nine of

the cycle but it really hits its like

High Point usually right around day 14

which is when ovulation occurs so

estrogen begins Rising sharply around

day nine of the cycle and again the

first day of the menstrual cycle is the

day that um is the day that your period

arrives so that's day one about day nine

so about a week and a half after your

period started most women will start to

have a pretty dramatic increase in

estrogen estrogen will climb climb climb

climb climb it will Peak around day 14

which um is when ovulation occurs and

this is when an egg of course is

released and pregnancy is possible from

sex so from day nine till day 15 till

day yeah till day 15 day N9 to day 15

are are usually like that's usually when

we sort of bookend the fertile window

and during this time not surprisingly um

women experience a change in their

sexual psychology right so women become

increasingly attuned to All Things sex

so what we tend to see is that women's

sexual desire increases right around

that time in the cycle women have more

sex during that time in the cycle women

masturbate more during that time in the

cycle and women become more exacting

about who it is that they desire as a

romantic partner or a sex partner and in

particular what we tend to see is that

as estrogen is increasing across the

cycle so too does women's interest in

cues that historically have been related

to high genetic quality or genetic

compatibility within their choice of

Partners so two of the traits that we

know to be particularly pronounced um in

terms of women's interest um near high

fertility in the cycle are cues related

to testosterone and masculinity and the

reason for this one is because

testosterone is a known imuno supressive

meaning that it has the effect of

suppressing the immune system and so

people who have relatively High levels

of testosterone this is a cue that their

bodies are in such good physical

condition right their immune system is

so strong and robust that it can handle

being suppressed by testosterone so

people who have higher testosterone are

believed to have greater

immunocompetence relative to people with

lower levels of testosterone and what we

tend to see is that low and behold um

during that Peak fertility time in the

menstrual cycle when estrogen is high

that women exhibit a greater preference

for cues related to testosterone in men

so we find for example that women desire

a more masculinized male faces voices

and behavior at high fertility in the

cycle compared to low fertility in the

cycle how do you test this you test this

by looking at what it is that women are

looking for and you look at it over time

so just to give you an example of one of

the sort of most robust studies that's

been done looking at this phenomenon

researchers had a group of women bring

home a bunch of little plastic tubes um

in a freezer bag and they had them spit

into these little um saliva collection

tubes every day of the cycle across two

menstrual cycles on those same days when

women were taking a saliva sample they

were also evaluating the attractiveness

of male faces and the thing that the

women didn't know is that the

researchers knew the testosterone levels

of the faces of the men that they had

them looking at because the researchers

had men come into the research lab

beforehand and took their morning

testosterone levels over the course of

several days to get an average morning

testosterone level for these men and so

when they got all the saliva samples

from the women they assayed all of their

saliva and they were able to look at

Women's estrogen changes across the

cycle and then how it related to their

facial preferences for men and what they

found was first that of course estrogen

tended to increase and Peak during this

fertile window so days n nine or so to

day 15 women's estrogen levels were high

and during this time what they also

found is that women's preference for for

testosterone levels in the faces of the

men they preferred also increased and so

there was this really beautiful overlap

between women's estrogen levels and

their preference for testosterone going

to show that estrogen loves testosterone

right so women during this estrogenic

phase in the cycle have a heightened

preference for cues related to facial

masculin masculinity they also have a

greater preference for vocal masculinity

so women at high fertility in the cycle

also like the sound of more masculinized

male voices they tend to like more

social dominance in terms of behavior um

relative to what we tend to see when

women are at low fertility in the cycle

so I'm more likely to get laid if I yeah

there you go I think that voice right

there that you did I think it's going to

get you all the girls think I do I do I

would I would try that one out at the

bar tonight they must then find that and

I think I read this in your work well I

did read it in your work I'm just

pretending I knew it um they also found

that men who have high testosterone

levels are more likely to be in a

relationship um the next year than men

that don't have high testosterone levels

yeah so we know that um we know from

research that not only you know do women

desire testosterone in their partners

women choose men with higher levels of

testosterone as their Partners so

they've done studies looking at whether

or not men are partnered over time right

based on what their testosterone levels

are at time one and then looking at

whether or not they're married at time

two and what we tend to find is that low

and behold men with higher levels of

testosterone are more likely to be

married at time too suggesting that men

are probably more likely to be chosen as

partners when they have higher levels of

testosterone relative to when they do

not

and something that I found really

bizarre and no one's ever explained to

me is I also read I believe it was in

your book or might been in a in a video

I watched of yours um they found that

men who had a

baby had plummeting testosterone levels

yeah like how does the how does the my

body know that I have a baby isn't that

fascinating like the exact mechanisms I

don't know exactly what they are but the

connection between the brain and the

rest of the body I mean it's it's it it

knows everything I mean it knows

everything and what the research finds

is that yes when men get into a

long-term relationship for example a

men's testosterone decreases a little

bit right and we tend to you know

culturally we have this narrative about

testosterone where it's like more is

better right and it's always seen as

something that men should have a lot of

and you see there's testosterone clinics

on all these different Corners um

because you know this idea that men need

lots of testosterone and to have low

testosterone means that you have a

problem but it doesn't always mean that

at all and what we tend to see is that

when men are get into a long-term

relationship testosterone takes a little

dip and when men have children that

they're caring for testosterone takes

another dip and the reason for this is

that it's not always in a man's best

interest to have their foot on the gas

pedal of sexual desire and attraction

all the time it's just not necessarily

the best thing to do if you're a man

engaged in a long-term relationship or

you're a man who's caring for young

children it would be better to take some

of that effort they'd be spend you know

looking at the next door neighbor and

you know looking at her shorts or

whatever it is that you're looking at

and instead using that effort to channel

it toward caring for your children

caring for your

partner so nice guys don't get laid as

much so nice guys might not get laid as

much and and when you look at short-term

casual sexual behavior in particular we

tend to find that the ones who are more

successful with that a mating strategy

tend to be men with higher levels of

testosterone there's just no question

about that nonetheless um being somebody

who's willing to invest and willing to

have long-term relationships with women

generally is going to get you in a good

position um to be able to find a partner

and this is something that anybody can

do to increase their value to women um

and so you could be somebody who has low

testosterone right you're lacking these

cues to um High genetic quality or even

genetic compatibility right like let's

say that your immune genes which is one

thing that women also pick up on at high

fertility is they tend to pick up on

qualities related to somebody having

different immune genes than themselves

men who are lacking these things

completely um Can can make themselves

desirable to women simply by virtue of

being the type of person who's willing

to in invest in a committed relationship

because it is something that women value

this is a bit of a side point and I

haven't seen this in na work but it just

came to mind cuz I was just thinking of

a conversation I had with one of my

friends attraction for me is such a

delicate thing it's almost it's almost

un it's well it is unconscious and I I

we often think of attractiveness as

maybe you know this body part on the

person is a certain shape or their face

looks like this but the older I've

gotten and the more I look back on my

life The more I've come to believe that

there's almost like a thousand tiny

little micro expressions or something in

the air which makes us attracted to

someone else and so when we're giving

people advice on how to be attract Ive I

wonder if most most of the advice is

pretty futile because it's deeper than

that right it's so much deeper than that

yeah so I and and you're totally right

about that I mean the fact is attraction

is idiosyncratic and finicky right so

all of us when we think about the things

that we find sexy and attractive um

there's going to be a lot of ways that

that you're going to disagree with other

people right like you're going to think

that somebody like is so sexy to you and

other people might say yeah you know

she's all right but it doesn't really do

it for them um and there's a there is an

element to our attraction that is very

person specific and idiosyncratic right

and may might there be some evolutionary

Roots behind all of that may be right so

it could be for example that the kinds

of qualities that you find you know just

really attractive in another person that

that make you feel so attracted to them

might be cued that they are a really

compatible mate for you and maybe that's

why you have a very sort of you specific

response to that person but there are

also Dimensions that are shared right so

we know for example that men tend to

place a greater emphasis relative to

women on cues related to physical

attractiveness and that physical

attractiveness tends to be related to

things that have historically been

related to fertility right so for

example having an hourglass body shape

we know that this is something that's

related to a woman's level of sex

hormones and that women with higher

levels of estrogen for example are more

likely to put on fat around their butt

and their thighs and less likely to put

on fat around their waist um relative to

women with higher or lower levels of

estrogen right as estrogen levels

decline when women age their bodies

become more straight up and down than

they do hourglass and this has to do

with changes in estrogen and um and so

we know that that's something that men

generally desire to a greater extent

than women right we also know that men

tend to PR place a greater emphasis on

cues related to youthfulness right so

the cues that are related to H maturity

in a face that's something that women

tend to have aen preference for so if

somebody has sort of an older you know

an older face um they they tend to be

seen as more attractive like so like

50-year-old George Clooney seems more

attractive most women think that that

looks more attractive than you know

25-year-old um George Clooney and and we

see that because our brains have

inherited this tendency to find cues

related to wisdom and status and

resource acquisition all of which come

with greater age um women have in have

inherited that preference for those

kinds of qualities because that would

have given them a mating related

Advantage relative to preferring a more

youthful face conversely for men they

would have been penalized if they had a

preference for maturity in the face of a

potential partner because if you like

women who have signs of maturity and

wisdom and resource acquisition ability

you'd probably choose somebody who's

approaching menopause right and that's

not going to lead to any Gene

transmission at all right and so we tend

to see that men have a heightened

preference for cues related to

youthfulness and faces and so even

though yes there are differen or there

are differences between individuals and

there is some idiosyncrasy that tends to

characterize human mate Choice there are

a lot of things that we can actually

make some pretty strong predictions

about too so there are some overall

themes that tend to characterize men's

and women's partner preferences is it

true that men are less attractive to

successful women is there any sort of

evolutionary basis for that I do know

that research finds that men don't place

as much of a priority on that that

compared to

women but I don't know that they

penalize them exactly right if you had

somebody if you show a man a photograph

of a woman who's dressed like a CEO and

she's gorgeous and you show a man a

picture of a woman who's dressed like a

Burger King service you know person and

she's drop dead gorgeous men are going

to find her similarly attractive in both

conditions it doesn't matter the woman

can be doing it doesn't matter what the

woman is doing and there's been research

that shows this they'll show men and

women photographs of people in different

types of outfits and the men's ratings

of how attractive the women are has just

everything to do with how attractive the

women are um for women rating men it all

depends on what they're wearing right do

they show cues to Resource access do

they not show cues to Resource access

and women tend to modulate how

physically attractive they find men

based on whether or not they have these

cues related to provisioning Ability so

I don't know if there was a really

attractive and there are a lot of really

attractive uh females in positions of

power um men will find them just as

attractive as they do somebody who's not

in a position of power although they may

be you know potentially less likely to

choose them as a long-term mate um you

know if there's issues related to power

dynamics and that sort of thing that

they don't want to mess with with what

about jealousy and

specifically is the term interex women

being jealous of women men being jealous

of men you mentioned a second ago that

if you know 60% of the college educated

or college attendees or 70% of them are

women and there's only a pool of 30%

which are men isn't there going to be a

ton of competition amongst women and

what direction does that competition

travel in is it low status women having

competition with high status women or is

it what is it I mean the competition

when you have cases where there's an

asymmetrical sex ratio and like we do on

college campuses I mean women are very

competitive amongst one another for

access to the men that are available and

oftentimes the way that this like the

form that this tends to take is that

women become increasingly likely to be

willing to do whatever men want of them

in order to be chosen as a mate and what

we've tended to see on college campuses

is because men are more or oriented

toward casual sex and non-committed

relationships than women are what we

tend to see is that short-term hookups

and Casual Sex tend to be very common on

college campuses and in part this is the

result of the fact that women are

competing for access to mates and one of

the ways that they can compete for

access to Mates is to be willing to do

whatever it is that men want in terms of

um providing you know the structure of

the relationship and if men are only

looking for casual sex even though women

are tend to be more oriented toward

long-term relationships they're going to

be um more inclined to just give in to

whatever it is that the men desire um as

a means to be able to get a partner are

women more competitive with beautiful

women or women that are

less stereotypically and socially

considered beautiful oh women are more

competitive with beautiful women I mean

there's just no question about that and

the reason for this is that given that

this is something that men desire and

their Partners um this is the primary

Dimension by which women compete for

access to Partners right and so this is

the big this is the big one um given men

place a really pretty strong priority on

physical attractiveness in their choice

of Partners and in fact one of the

biggest predictors of a woman's upward

social mobility in the US is how

physically attractive a woman is and in

fact that's a bigger predictor of a

woman's upward Mobility than her

education level or even her

socioeconomic status of origin when you

say upward social Mobility what do you

mean I mean the ability to transcend the

social class in which you were born okay

so if you're somebody who was uh you

know working class or middle class or

upper class your ability to transcend

those ranks of um of you know

socioeconomic status is um more strongly

predicted by physical attractiveness

than a woman's education level and

that's like a tough thing to have to

that's a tough nut to you know a tough

nut to crack tough pill to swallow

so women are more competitive

against beautiful women in the lens of

society and stereotypically yes and and

one of the ways that women compete

against one another is by derogating

their competitors right and derogating

their competitors just meaning saying

mean things about them or saying mean

things to them and a lot of times those

mean things that they have to say have

to do with a woman's attractiveness

right they'll try to downplay how

attractive she is to other people by

saying things like um you know oh she's

had a lot of work done right that's the

thing that you'll hear women say um

about each other or to men about other

women and and this is something that's

done to try to manipulate other people's

perceptions of that woman's value but

because attractiveness plays such an

important role in terms of a woman's

ability to successfully attract a

romantic partner um this is a dimension

in which women are fiercely competitive

even when they don't want to say that

they are and want to pretend that

they're not right I think that the

Barbie movie was you know sort of got at

some of these kinds of issues and just

this idea that women want to pretend

like none of this stuff matters right

that it's not that important and that we

don't value this stuff but nonetheless

um this is still a very important domain

of competition for women always has been

I think it probably always will be are

women more likely to trust a beautiful

woman or a woman that is less

stereotypically Beautiful cuz I was

thinking about this um this thing about

gay male shopping sales associates uhhuh

it was a test that you did right yeah so

this was I have um one of my former this

is digging deep so um this one of my

former students um who was really into

and so he's a gay man um and just to set

the stage for all of this he became

really interested in the friendship that

tends to form between gay men and

straight women which is actually

actually you know it there's a this is

something that happens everywhere so

having like the the gay man and the

straight woman friendship is something

that's not just you know something that

we see in Europe and the US it is sort

of cross-culturally ubiquitous and he

was trying to understand this

relationship and one of the things that

he noted in his research is that um the

people who tend to form friendships most

frequently with gay men are beautiful

women um it's like attractive women who

who are more competitive and potentially

May perceive more competition on the

part of other women and they form these

friendships because gay men can provide

them with really important information

um that's relevant on the mating Market

that is not colored by one intersexual

competition right so if you say do these

pants make me look fat right your um

your gay man friend isn't going to tell

you no they look great even though they

make you look terrible because they're

trying to send you out and look terrible

right so there's no like there's no

thread of competition in that

relationship and there's also not the

fear that this person's just trying to

get you in bed right and so there's this

there's this really nice trust um that

women can have with um with gay men this

is your brain on birth control yes why

did you choose to write this book I

chose to write this book because I was

on hormonal birth control for more than

a decade of my life and I'm a

psychologist who studies women and

women's

Brains and I had absolutely no idea that

any of the things that the birth control

pill does to the brain were happening to

me and so I went off of hormonal birth

control after being on it for more than

a decade

straight and when I went off it I felt

like I woke up it was like I had this

moment it was about 3 months after I

discontinued it where all of a sudden I

realized that over the last three months

like I'd been feeling things more deeply

I'd been interested in sex in a way that

I hadn't been in a long time I was

exercising and going to the gym again I

was downloading new music onto my what

was then an iPod um for the first time I

know and yeah it's like it's like a it's

like an archaic iPhone people I was like

downloading new music onto my phone and

my iPod I was cooking it was like I was

just interested in pleasure I had more

energy I was feeling things more deeply

and I thought what is this and I was on

it you know during the time that I was

on birth control I never had any issues

with it like I wasn't one of those

people who had uh negative mood related

side effects and I didn't know that I

was experiencing any side effects at all

and it was only after I went off of it

and started to realize how much more

alive I felt that I started to dig into

the research behind the way that

hormonal birth control changed changes

women and it was then that I learned

that people had been studying this in

some cases for 30 years on the way that

hormonal birth control changes the way

that women think feel and experience the

world and it was then that I knew that I

had to share this information with other

women because here I was as somebody

who's on the pill studies women studies

women's Brains I'd even published papers

on the effects of women's changing

hormones over the cycle and the way that

they influence women and it never even

occurred to me that my birth control was

changing me and I knew that if I didn't

know that the birth control pill was

changing me that nobody else knew it

either and so that led me to dig into

the science behind hormones hormonal

birth control um and how that changes

women um and I put together that book to

tell everybody the things that I learned

pretty dangerous subject matter to take

on it can seem like a dangerous subject

matter to take on and and you know and

for good reason uh hormonal birth

control and having a reliable way to

prevent pregnancy has been by far the

biggest game Cher that women have ever

experienced you know in history um

there's been nothing that has been more

instrumental to women's ability to be

able to achieve political and economic

independence for men than the birth

control pill um and because of this

saying anything that is critical of the

birth control pill um can be seen very

dangerous right because it's like um oh

no don't say that too loudly or else

they're going to take our birth control

away or oh no don't say that too loudly

like what else are we going to do um but

this book was really important to me to

be able to present to women all of the

different ways that hormones influence

us and the surprising ways that hormonal

birth control can change who we are in

the way that we experience the world and

then give that information to women so

that way when they're making decisions

about whether to be on or off of

hormonal birth control they have all the

information about the trade-offs that

they're making and this will allow them

then to make decisions about whether or

not to be on it depending on what's

going on in their own lives because

everything that I've learned about the

way that the birth control pill changes

women means that the answer that you

come to when you're asking yourself the

question do I go on this or do I not go

on this is going to be very woman

specific right for some women the

decision is still going to be yes I I'm

willing to make these trade-offs and for

other women the answer is going to be no

I am not willing to make these

trade-offs and whether or not we make

those sort of where we land on that is

going to differ depending on where we

are in our life and and so on and so

forth and so it was really important to

me to present this information as a way

to really Empower women to be able to

make informed decisions about who they

want to be right and how they want to

regulate their fertility what do you

wish you were told on that day when

you've first given that little packet of

pill pills what what do you think they

if they were been completely honest with

you and they knew what you know now what

is the sort of the list of things you

would have said to a young Sarah about

this decision to me the the one thing

and then we can kind of dive down into

what this all means but the thing that

would have really made a difference to

me is that your hormones make you who

you are and when you change your

hormones you change who you are right so

the birth control pill is going to

change you it changes the version of

yourself that your brain creates and so

if you're going to be going on this you

need to understand what that does so

this of course begs the question what

does it do right and there are several

things that the birth control pill does

right and there's at least five

different things that the birth control

B does to change who we are right it

changes our sexual desire and who we are

attracted to it changes our emotional

states right it can affect our moods it

can affect our ability to regulate and

to manage stress right it

influences sexual desire and sexual

function it influences our ability to be

able to put on muscle mass and affects

our like nutrition and fitness goals

right it affects all of us and not

knowing all of that and not knowing the

potential risks of having side effects

related related to mental health and

libido all the way to everything you

know to like who a person is attracted

to I wish I would have known that that

probably would have you know impacted

again um decisions that I would have

made about staying on it when I didn't

need to because there was there's no

reason to change who you are um if you

don't need the contraceptive benefits so

on that first point then it changes who

you're attracted to your sexual desire

how well so mechanistically the way that

this happens has everything to do with

the hormonal changes that are initiated

by the birth control pill and so just to

talk about the mechanics of this first

and then talking about the downstream

effects of it next um mechanically what

goes on when you take hormonal birth

control is you are suppressing ovulation

right and the way that that that birth

control does this is it does this by

giving you a combination of hormones or

a single hormone that tells your brain

not to stimulate the ovaries and not to

ovulate right and it does this by way of

a synthetic progesterone called a

progestin and progestin which are in all

forms of hormonal birth control when

they get picked up in the hypothalamus

in the brain that sends a signal that

the brain should not stimulate the

ovaries and should not lead to egg

maturation and egg development and when

this happens when the brain is not

stimulating the ovaries this means the

body is not producing estrogen right so

estrogen levels are kept really low and

instead you get this daily dose of a

synthetic progesterone or progestin that

is supplanting that right many forms of

hormonal birth control in addition to

having that synthetic progesterone or

progestin that's that turns off the

brain's communication with the ovaries

it also has a relatively low level of

estrogen that is also added so

combination hormonal birth control pills

contain progestin and a little bit of

estrogen but the estrogen levels are

kept really low and the progesterone

levels or the progestin levels are the

the dominant hormone and you get that

same hormonal message every day right

when you do that what happens when you

Flatline a woman's own production of

hormones and replace them with a daily

dose of synthetic progesterone this does

a few things to sexual like women's

sexual psychology the first thing that

it does is it turns off that estrogen

surge that you get right prior to

ovulation that's related to a heightened

preference for sex you know it Inc like

that estrogen surge is related to um an

increased preference for testosterone

markers and mates right it's related to

women's interest in sex it's related to

sexual function all of those things that

increase right prior to ovulation that

help to promote reproduction sexual

reproduction all of those things are

turned off on women on hormonal birth

control control because instead they're

getting the same daily message in which

progestin is the dominant hormonal

message and estrogen levels are really

low so that's the first thing that

happens but they they're still horny

right they're still uh yes I mean they

still will have sex and they still want

sex but many women report experiencing a

a real decrease in their libido when

they're on hormonal birth control that's

a very common response um and the reason

for this is twofold one one of the

things that's a big factor in promoting

women's sexual desire and um and libido

is estrogen and as estrogen is rising in

the cycle because when estrogen is

rising this is a time in the cycle when

sex can lead to conception this is

something that's known to fuel the

female sexual response so women's sexual

response and and their sexual desire um

all increases with estrogen levels

across the cycle so when you take

hormonal birth control and that's

flatlined which is what it does this

means that sexual desire is kept more

constant across the cycle so you do tend

to find that women who are using

hormonal birth control tend to have

fewer Peaks and valleys in sexual desire

than naturally cycling women do but on

the whole it tends to be lower the other

thing that happens on hormonal birth

control that can lead to a decrease in

libido is that all of those synthetic

hormones that are in hormonal birth

control they tend to lead to an increase

in what's known as sex hormone binding

globulin which is a real mouthful but

what it does is that this is a this is

something that's released by the liver

and it binds up free testosterone right

so it binds up testosterone and makes it

inactive in the body and testosterone

even though we tend to think of it as

like a guy thing and like this is a male

hormone um it's actually really

important in terms of promoting women's

sexual desire and women who are on

hormonal birth control have levels of

free testosterone that are about 60%

lower than that of their naturally

cycling peers and so what this means

again is that you have another you know

blow to women's sexual desire when

they're on hormonal birth control those

low levels of estrogen and then really

low levels of free testosterone those

two things work together to suppress

sexual desire in women and it can also

change attraction because as we noted

when women are approaching you know

ovulation their estrogen levels increase

and this is something that research

finds to be related to women's interest

in testosterone markers in men

researchers more recently said if that's

true you know what happens when you put

women on hormonal birth control and

estrogen levels are kept really low and

what they find is that low and behold

women who are using hormonal birth

control do seem to have a dampened

preference for cues related to

masculinity and testosterone

in Partners relative to what's observed

in naturally cycling women which

specifically means that a woman on birth

control is less likely to be interested

in a guy who is what a guy who has um

really masculinized features so for

example if you see a face um that has

high levels of testosterone generally

men um will have like more deep set eyes

they tend to have a wider jaw in in the

IES they tend to have broader shoulders

in a more narrow Waist Deep men with

more deep voices men who have um cues to

like behavioral cues to social dominance

that's also something related to

testosterone and what the research finds

is that women who are using hormonal

birth control do prefer a less

masculinized male face relative to what

is observed in naturally recycling women

I mean this is slightly concerning if

you're a man right because if my

partner's on the pill and and then she

comes off the pill she might not like me

right yeah no and that's like a that's a

real important question I mean it's very

provocative cuz what does that mean and

there have been some research studies

that have looked at that exact question

and one of the best studies that's

looked at this question is one that was

a longitudinal study of married couples

they followed women who were using

hormonal birth control at the time that

they met their partner and then they

just followed them over time to see what

would happen when women discontinued the

pill what happened when they

discontinued was that there were real

significant changes in how attracted

women were to their partner um depending

on whether they chose them using

hormonal birth control but what was

interesting about it is whether the

women became more or less attracted to

their partner depends on how attractive

their partner was and so what the

researchers found is that women who were

partnered to attractive men when they

went off hormonal birth control they

were more attracted to their partner and

were more sexually attracted to their

partner and more sexually satisfied

within their relationship relative to

where they were beforehand but for women

who were partnered with less attractive

Partners they had the opposite effect so

when they went off hormonal birth

control they became less attracted to

their partners and reported being less

sexually satisfied with their Partners

than where they were beforehand and so

this suggests that yes it is a very real

possibility that if you um have a

partner who chose you when you're using

hormonal birth control that this can

change attraction within the context of

the relationship but whether that's good

or bad probably depends on a bunch of

other dimensions that you need to take

into effect including partner's

attractiveness so if you're not a very

good-look guy you probably want have to

stay on it run for the hills no I mean

honestly you know it's one of these

things where you know this is you can

really quickly become alarmed with this

right the good news is this and that is

most women who are who choose their

Partners when they're on hormonal birth

control go off of hormonal birth control

and then there's really not a huge

shakeup in their relationship right and

the reason for this is the way that

hormones influence us is they kind of

nudge us a little bit one way or the

other right they kind of nudge us toward

preferring this type of mate or that

type of mate it's generally not these

big sweeping changes where all of a

sudden it's like the w off your eyes and

you're like what in the world was I

thinking right these are little nudges

it's just that for some people who were

teetering on the edge of not necessarily

being attracted to their partner going

off hormonal birth control can tilt them

out of Attraction right the same is true

for i' I've talked to people who've had

the experience of feeling like they were

lesbian and all of a sudden they feel

like they're bisexual or women who are

bisexual and then they go off of the

pill and all of a sudden they realize

that they're not interested in women

anymore I mean it's like sexual

orientation attraction of All Sorts

whether it's you know who you're

attracted to in terms of the sex you're

attracted to or who you're attracted to

in terms of the specific partners that

you're attracted to all of those things

are influenced by sex hormones and you

know when sex hormones kind of nudge you

this way or the other way depending on

where you fall in that distribution of

you know sort of where you are in terms

of sexual orientation or am I attracted

to this mate or that mate those people

who are on the Tails can get nudged into

a place that puts them into the

uncomfortable situation where they

realize that they're no longer attracted

to the person they chose on the pill as

a man is my attraction going to change

if my partner comes off the pill um so

there is evidence that suggests that

women are more attractive to men when

they're naturally cycling relative to

when they're on hormonal birth control

and so chances are if you have a partner

um that you are attracted to when she's

on hormonal birth control when she goes

off of it it's actually going to lead to

an increase in attraction so there's a

ton of research that finds that men find

women sexiest they think that they smell

better they think that they you know

that they look more

attractive men will tip women more um at

you know at strip clubs when the women

are at high fertility across the cycle

relative to low fertility across the

cycle meaning that men are cued into

estrogen levels and scent V phys you

know visual appearance and even just the

way that women act and move so they've

done studies where they have um men

looking at women moving um seeing just

seeing their Silhouettes move like

behind a sheet right so they'll see

women walking or dancing and they have

them walking or dancing at high or low

fertility across the cycle and men find

the women more attractive when they just

see their outlines moving at high

fertility compared to low fertility so

men's brains are wired to pick up on

estrogen cues and this makes perfect

sense when we consider the evolutionary

process that designed us right because

over the course of evolutionary history

men who were really dialed into women's

estrogen levels they would have passed

down more genes than men who didn't

really pay attention to those cues

because estrogen across the lifespan is

linked with fertility and estrogen

across the cycle is linked with

fertility right it's a it's linked with

fertility no matter which way you look

at it and so men who are really queued

into um estrogen levels they would have

done really well um and so if you are a

man your partner chose you when she was

using hormonal birth control and now all

of a sudden she starts cycling again my

guess is that most men will experience

an increase in attraction to their

partner particularly at high fertility

in the cycle because there's so much

research that suggests that this is

exactly what should go on here's a

here's one where I've put a few dots

together if my partner is on the birth

control pill

are my testosterone levels going to be

lower that's a fascinating question and

it's one I'm super interested in so I

actually was just I just had this

conversation not that long ago with my

my graduate students in my lab there is

research that suggest that men's

testosterone levels increase in response

to the scent of fertile women right so

when women are at high fertility if men

sniff t-shirts that they were wearing or

in one study they actually had men

sniffing the

air that was being uh piped through a

nebulizer that had a woman's panty liner

in it that was either worn at high or

low fertility so smelling um women's

vaginal secretions both of those things

have been shown in research to be

related um to an increase in

testosterone levels in men so it

increases men's testosterone levels to

be around these cues to high fertility

so what happens then when men are

spending their time or are partnered

with some some who's on hormonal birth

control right so given that um estrogen

levels can increase testosterone does a

lack of estrogen presence lead to lower

levels of testosterone on average and

this is a question that we do not have a

research answer to but it's one that's

incredibly fascinating because here we

are right 2024 almost

2025 and we have a testosterone crisis

on our hands right men's testosterone

levels are much lower um than what they

used to be 50 year even 50 years ago and

it's possible that one contributor to

this is the fact that so many women are

using hormonal birth control and when

you have on average lower levels of

estrogen in the population might this

then also predict lower levels of

testosterone in men and the answer to

that is we don't know and another

possibility with that by the way and one

that I I think is so interesting is you

know we talked about kids and we talked

about the fact that men's testosterone

levels um will decrease when men are in

long-term relationships and then they'll

decrease a little bit more when men uh

have children that they're caring for

and another possibility for men's

lowered levels of testosterone I mean in

addition to all the you know trash

that's in the water and you know all the

chemicals that were um that were exposed

to is the fact that men are now

responsible for more caregiving and you

know than than they ever have been in

history right with many women you know

being in the workforce men are having to

also do more in the home than they ever

did before and so it's also possible

that some of the differences that we see

in testosterone levels that have changed

over time may be the result of men um

their bodies actually decreasing

testosterone uh production in response

to their changing roles in the home

which is also sort of a fascinating

possibility are you all concerned that

there'll be a bit of a population

collapse if we don't start having more

kids gosh you know I have thought about

I don't I I can't spend you know it's

like if you talk about something like

that it almost sounds like like you can

take the next step and say that it's

everybody's you know obligation to

reproduce that women need to be having

more babies and so I I hasten

like if if if I say yes I do think about

that I hasten to add that um that it's

you know not women's responsibility to

make sure that they're having babies but

I do wonder what's going to happen you

know because people are not reproducing

the way that they used to and um and

there's a lot of people now who are

choosing not to have children at all and

so what is that going to do I I have no

idea but I I don't think it's

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in Fred SAA Journey today just for a

second because I've had so many

conversations on this podcast about

men's issues and the state of the the

world for men right now it's quite an

interesting moment with like the

depression statistics and suicidality

and sexlessness and all these

things and I don't know if you you've

even got an answer to this question but

what advice would have you got a son I

do what advice do you give to a young

man how old is he he's he's 15 he's 15

perfect he's like right at the age where

he's just about to figure out what it is

to be a man right what advice are you

giving to him about like what is a good

man in the modern world right I mean is

it okay to be masculine like yeah yeah

no I yes I think I think that there's I

think there's room for masculinity like

I and

honestly sex demands it I mean I I so I

teach a class called Evolution sex in

the brain and one of the things that we

talk about is just how problematic um

you know sex has become because there's

so much of a a dance with like seduction

you know it's like everybody knows when

um sort of you know masculinity has gone

too far it's like you know it when you

see it when somebody is you know like

touching a woman when she's asking not

to be her or is harassing somebody it's

like we all know what that looks like

but then there's also you know seduction

requires like Ian the whole idea of

Seduction is this idea that men um can

lead women into sexuality and so trying

to have a conversation with my son about

you know it's like everything has to you

know he has to make sure that if he's um

interacting with girls that there is

consent and that that it's consensual

any sort of a physical touch that goes

on but at the same time you know like I