when you get that call had you known the

context the behind the scenes that

unhealthy culture honestly do you think

you would have made a different decision

I think I think I can say this

Chelsea Legends

I read the dad was the biggest influence

on your career and then I read a

separate quote saying sometimes I hated

him you know my dad was a tough man

pushed me very hard on the football

front and it got probably a bit too much

the fear of failure was a huge driving

force that made me what I was and gave

me the career I got in the end

Chelsea fans will be listening to this

because they want to get your opinion on

what's just happened because since

you've left we've not really heard from

you I came back here because this was an

opportunity to come to Chelsea travel

close to my heart but I could see and

training the level wasn't enough the

size of the squad with players that will

test you and question you questioning

you and then Chelsea spends more money

than anyone's ever spent in a window it

seemed like Tails could see that the

players were ready for the season to

finish but low standards are a symptom

of something further Upstream that's

happened you know we didn't get the

results I wanted and I know a lot of the

reasons why like what so

one moment occurred in your life that

really tested you at a much deeper level

the passing of your mother and while you

were playing at the very very highest

level I was a mummy's boy I lost the

closest person to me you know everything

to me the emotional support I want to

say something more you know and I

couldn't

what would you want to say

Frank is a legend there's absolutely no

denying that

but so much has happened in recent times

in his life as a manager that unanswered

questions remain and I wanted to have a

conversation with Frank an honest open

conversation to see if we could get to

the bottom of some of those unanswered

questions

what was happening behind the scenes

how did it actually feel for Frank

is anyone to blame what does Frank want

to do next in how and what caused Frank

to be the man that he is and that's

maybe the most fascinating question of

all

because there's some things

that Frank has just never talked about

before

but he's made the decision to talk about

them today and if you have unanswered

questions

I don't think you will at the end of

this episode

[Music]

Frank

[Music]

how are you doing really well thank you

there's always a there's always a short

and long answer to that isn't it

I was waiting for your second drink

what's the what's the long version of of

that no I'm doing really well I'm um I'm

currently uh on a break I suppose from

working

which is a pleasure in ways because I am

obviously the the work of a the manager

uh I was gonna say Premier League

manager but any manager in football is

intense

um so at the moment I'm on a break sort

of holiday time for me a little bit

family time

um and probably when I'm

out of work I learned this when I left

Chelsea actually

um

it was I had a year out after that and I

really learned to try to improve my

appreciation of when you're out of work

you're fortunate enough to be able to be

out of work whatever that circumstance

is but try and enjoy your family and be

very very present so the minute I'm

pretty present at home which is a good

thing hopefully for my children and wife

and uh I'm in a pretty good place

I remember my my brain would often drift

off when I had my time out of work

um and I would think about things

professionally so I'd think about things

that I could be doing or you'd think

back to the past when you're when you're

having those moments where you'll meet I

know your kids are running around and

you you have a moment where your brain

drifts off to work what is what are the

subjects that your brain starts thinking

about professionally

you you think a lot in management uh

about people so if I if I reflect on

situations like leaving Chelsea or

leaving Everton and those things there

is there are a lot of things that are

out of your control

you get to a point where you kind of can

get probably 70 of them and lock them

away and kind of go and I'm right with

that you know results you can't control

but 70 you kind of you're okay with and

there's 30 that you kind of niggles at

you that's how I am and a lot of those

things when you become manager and maybe

sort of like people things I think

there's sort of tactics and all these

things are huge in a modern game and I

I'm certainly a coach I'm not a manager

but when it comes to managing I don't

know 25 30 players managing and building

because you are the figured head of a

building when you're the head coach or

manager I think sometimes when you're

reflecting you can reflect on things did

I have that was that interaction right

would I have dealt with that right could

I dealt with it differently and

hindsight is like the best best thing

you know it's so simple to sit there be

hindsight and think you know I should

have done that so I suppose I had

moments where I go over things like that

but they're all with a with a yearning

to sort of be a bit better or learn that

you might have done something wrong or

actually you come to conclusion oh maybe

did it right so you know I dip in and

out of that stuff

um and that probably is you know as I

say I wouldn't say I'm the only one but

I certainly am someone that is you know

I can never control when those moments

come I can be now pushing the swing you

know with my kid and then my mind goes

back to something called things ahead to

something and you know that probably

means that I'm absolutely invested in

what I do

yeah I can relate to all of that I think

any anybody can um and I also really

like your analogy of once you get to

like 50 70 piece with something it's

kind of resolved as much as you know

yeah and then there's other things which

feel kind of unresolved I guess or

there's more wisdom to Garner from those

experiences well I think if you don't

get to peace with a 70 I think you can

get yourself in a bit of a mess you know

I think you can go over everything and

correct yourself and then what is the

answer going forward so I think kind of

understanding what you are and then

going no no that was fine whatever the

result for a win or for a loss I've had

games as a coach and as a player where I

I we've won a game and I know I got

something wrong in the game but you take

the plot it's afterwards but inside I

know I got it wrong I've had games that

we've lost and you get criticism from

the outside and I know my prep was right

you know in my head so I think those

sort of things you can kind of Stack Up

and Go no that's fine but then there's

always the 30 and we'll always strive

for and it might be less I don't know if

30 sounds a big number when I say it

sometimes it's 10 to try and make you as

good as you can be so I kind of go over

that stuff because when you're out of

work when you're not working and you

don't know in foot we don't know what

your next gig is you know it's very hard

to jump too far into the future because

everything looks different there so how

can you stack yourself up as good as you

can now

I want to get into all of that but I I

want to take a step back because I think

um I feel like there's more I need to

understand about who you are as a person

and your characters and your character

and really the the like the foundations

you're built upon to understand all of

these things the things we're going to

talk about so what do I what do I need

to know about Frank Lampard in terms of

the influences and the experiences that

shaped your character the character of

the man that sat in front of me because

you know I've spoken to a lot of people

about you in preparation of this

conversation no no but they all they all

seem to sing from the exact same him

shoot they all say everyone says you're

just a a wonderful man like a really

good solid gentleman and it's people

don't know this but we weren't going to

have this conversation before yeah but

you've just been a total Class Act in

even not being able to come last time

because of you know reasons outside of

your control

um the way you conduct yourself you just

conduct yourself as a real gentleman

um and then in terms of your mentality

when I was reading through your early

years it's clear that there was this

real

Obsession to be better I mean Harry said

Harry redknapp said that you were the

hardest training hardest working person

he's ever worked with when you're a

young man

tell me what do I why is Frank Lampard

the way he is I I grew up in in Romford

in Essex so

um I will call it probably a middle

class upbringing in terms of my dad had

been a professional footballer

um and so I went through a pretty um

comfortable upbringing where I was down

to school every day aspiring to do

pretty well at school

um training pretty much every day and

plan at the weekend so after school

we'll go and try and Tottenham and

Arsenal and West Ham at one point I was

trying little three you could in those

days now it's different

uh I was playing Cricket I was playing

for Essex as a child so that was on

Monday night having Nets at Chelmsford

and then on Saturday I went to school

he's going to school on Saturday so she

was devastated with at the time as we

all were but that was how the school

works and on Sundays I played so my more

week was so busy but it was content very

content in terms of relationship of my

family I had a a dad who was pushed me

very hard on the football front very

very hard it was quite a hard task

master what does that mean in reality

um that means that probably when I was

probably started kicking the ball when I

was at four or maybe it seems like a

walk but you know like remembering my

early days would be four or five and

then so that was me in terms of I loved

the football

um but probably by the time I was eight

or nine I was probably getting like

coached or pushed in in what 15 or 16

year old might be when they're sort of

going into an academy at West hamster

where I ended up as in work on your

weaknesses go over the park you need to

have more stamina you if it's not good

enough your agility is not good enough

so I was like

used to put down the the the cushions in

the front room and had me doing reaction

for our ball against the one react and

jump I'm a kid I I loved it don't get me

wrong but there were times when I didn't

love it and it got probably a bit too

much I'm not gonna

cry about it because it made me what I

was and gave me the career I got in the

end and then on the other flip of that

so I had that pushy kind of thing and so

after a game on a Sunday we would lose

and I would get he would give me some

criticism on the way home and I would be

a bit emotional and fortunately for me

when I think about sort of

fight and how things work together to

maybe get used to where you got you you

end up being my mother was the the flip

the emotional support the you know arm

around you the quiet word I was a

mummy's boy and that was completely my

upbringing so as I say it was pretty

comfortable and in the end it led to me

leaving school with my gcses getting

decent grades and then going to sign on

as a yts at the time an apprentice at

West Ham

I read that the quote about your father

I think it was in the independent that

your dad was the biggest influence on

your career and then I read a separate

quote saying that I have an awful lot to

thank him for but sometimes I hated him

yeah I I stick by that quiet

I think you'll probably find it um

a lot in stories similar to mine

um and in the modern day I think it's

changed because I think parents now

might the thing with my story then in a

different era was it it felt pretty

organic my dad had played

um he saw probably a bit of talent in me

and pushed and drove in an old school

way I want you to be a player son you

know and he was like he think I think he

found a new sense of pride in pushing me

there now I think some parents get

excited about all the bright lights that

may be and they push their children and

I think that's another story but I think

mine was real you know my dad was a

tough man is a tough man and he pushed

me and um I remember being over a park

and it was raining it was crossing balls

for me to head hedden's never been a

strength of mine

throughout my career and I couldn't you

know I couldn't connect I was missing

them and he was shouting at me and I

remember sort of stomping off and and

being emotional about it and um those

things stick in my head and again they

were the building blocks of of myself as

a person so you know I this isn't a sob

story it's just a reality of what I went

through and as I started a lot of other

comfort so I you know other people don't

have it as good and it was without that

who knows in a football sense if I'd

have got to where I got and how does

that um what relationship does that make

you have with your work and progress and

self-improvement at that very young age

because you sign up West Ham when you're

14 years oldish uh 15 maybe 15 yeah 15.

and and I and I I mean as I said I read

that Harry redknapp quote that you

outworked everybody else yeah um

what what is your relationship with your

work yeah from that very young age well

I I I'm sort of

um really interested in this kind of

nature versus nurture thing

um what was in me already was ingrained

in me maybe to be this kind of very work

ethicy kind of person I think I had you

know physical capacity I was a chubby

kid to be fair I was quite chubby at

these cheeks curtains as you had in

those days and I remember like I know I

needed to get fitter and

um and get stronger so

um and then being pushed by my dad

particularly and encouraged by my mum

probably gave me this real desire

um to an understanding that if you don't

work you're not going to get there and

that you know that's what I would try

and pass on to my children now but it

really stuck and it became me so by the

time of being you know 16 as I remember

it probably been at West End my early

years I'd probably been forced into a

bit by my dad but I took it on board so

you know I wanted to get faster so he

put me in running spikes and I had to

run after training go and run over the

back and I used to hide my spikes go out

the backs I didn't want the other

players to see me because I felt

embarrassed

um I'd go in on days off

um I would practice extra shooting I

would do everything I could to to

improve and it probably was looking back

um a desire to be the best and I was

never the best I was probably like the

second or third best kid in pretty much

every team that I played in in whatever

I did Cricket or football

um but I had a real desire to and I also

had a fear of failure and as much as

that doesn't sound like a nice driving

force it can be a really strong driving

force I think where did that fear of

failure come from I don't know I don't

know I think it's in my makeup maybe I

don't know it's probably just how I am I

probably have it still these days I

think it can be really positive it was

in my footballing career and it carried

on throughout probably still in my

management career

um it can probably be the flip of that

in my life because if I fear of failing

something I won't approach it and I

that's me I don't want that you know my

wife will always Christine jokes with me

when we go on holiday and you want to

paddle board or something I'm not going

near that because I know I'm going to

fall off a lot you know so she'll laugh

at me so I'm like you paddleboard I'll

lay on the beach or I'll lay on the Lilo

or something like that I actually use

the paddle board as a lie like that's

like that's the joke but in the biggest

sense in my life you know that fear of

failure is and as it can probably maybe

make me uh not try things I should do

but in terms of my footballing career

the fear of failure was a huge driving

force and I don't think it's a bad thing

because I think there's a certain

humility to it and my mum would

certainly have been a driver of me as a

young person just like stay humble son

stay humble never get too higher stay

there and you'll be fine in your own

head so I think I had a real

understanding of my weaknesses and I

thought well if I can work on these

constantly and then I started to see

results really step by step sometimes

you go back you go forward a few but I I

can certainly say looking back at my

career from start to finish

I didn't leave anything on the table in

terms of work ethic and training you

know I don't want to sound like an

absolute machine there'll be days when

you get older where you come off it a

bit or you you start to find life

affection different ways but I I when I

look at my peers in football

um I certainly had a training ethic that

at least stood right at the top whether

you know others can stay the same maybe

but I felt that I mean that's the Harry

redknapp quote he says that

um during his career

um he never met anyone that trained as

hard as Frank he would be out there on a

Winter's day practice and shooting for

hours Left Foot Right Foot etc etc

that fear of failure though I can see

how it becomes a driving force and makes

you stay out there on a Winter's day

Left Foot Right Foot at him leaving no

stone unturned but with all these things

there comes there comes a more a cost on

the other side of the coin right

and you I mean you talked about the

paddle board thing which is that like

kind of if I don't do it then I won't

fail but one of the things that I was

assuming is it would also make you quite

a chronic overthinker yeah because I

think people that have that fear of

failure they try and think their way

through a situation before it happens

yeah typically what is the cost of being

that having that fear of failure

um well the other thinking thing is

maybe a cost and I think that can be a

positive too but I think it can be quite

taxing on yourself you know for anyone

with things like that and you know

sometimes I would I've tried to make

myself you know not an overthinker

however you do that I don't know because

I've not found a solution to that one

because

um I think that's when you are that um

it's in you so

um probably the the the the negative or

downsides have been probably a bit taxi

than myself but I think you learned to

live with that too and I think you

understand it I think it's um

something that I'll never master and

um it can probably cause you in to over

complicate in situations like you're

saying about I don't want to get into

that but if you do get into something

and you're really overthinking you have

to get into something

I now try and step back and simplify and

say stop overthinking it simplify it

because for me anything in life if you

can simplify the basics you probably get

quicker to the solution so

um that one's just a struggle that I put

up with but as I say I think it's just

part of my makeup if I wasn't an

overthinker if I didn't have that sort

of obsessive sort of perfectionist

training Drive I wouldn't have got to

where I got to because I was not Lionel

Messi who has this god-given Talent

that's there like wherever my talent was

on the Spectrum I needed to push it and

I constantly try to how did you enjoy

the process if you're overthinking I

weirdly like I've really grown to like

the stress of what it brings and that's

and that that's you might start thinking

I'm a strange person I don't know but I

loved

stressful training you know to put on a

physical site for instance I loved like

that feeling of like almost feeling sick

on a pre-season run or you know really

intense training sessions I I really

enjoyed that maybe not always in the

moment but you know when you get to the

end of it you go if I got through that

and it was so intense and hard and maybe

in life sometimes I set myself

challenges and maybe I'll make it more

complicated than I should but I don't

mind that stuff and that's probably when

I was started off talking about that

relax when you're with your children I

think I'm still

um juggling that one and I think

probably a lot of people are I don't

know I think you know being overthink is

not something unique to me it's

completely everywhere

um but I don't I don't know what else to

say and that's what I am that that

enjoying the the pain like the preseason

run if you feel sick then you feel good

about yourself yeah why

I don't know I mean I went to the gym

this morning and I really didn't want to

go and I bought the dog and my time

limit's getting shorter and I'm gonna go

and I want to go I'm going to go in

because I know the buzz that'll get off

afterwards and that's kind of my drug

and always has been and you know it

probably starts from all those early

days of you know you must work hard you

must push yourself you must be as fit as

you can be and it probably just stuck

and it's probably a bit of a lifer for

me um but I do I do thankfully I I I I

enjoy the stress of hard work and

physical but less now I'll finish you

know now it's more to

not get too unhealthy and unfit whereas

when I was training and playing

even when I finished playing for a

couple of years if I went for a 5k I

need to beat my 5K PB I have to try and

beat it now when I do a 5k I'm just

going to complete it you know and I'm

completing it in like 20 or 30 seconds

less so I've I've dropped that one

slightly and maybe I transfer it into

other parts of my life I guess quick one

before we get back to this episode just

give me 30 seconds of your time

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thank you thank you so much back to the

episode when you when you finished your

footballing career you know there's many

options you had punditry I mean I'm just

talking about the typical path to that

footballers sometimes they just go into

business yeah a few of them going to

coaching and stay in football but you

you made the decision to stay in

football why

and was there anything else that was

tempting you well I did Panda tree for a

year so I spent a year working mainly on

BT and doing some different things BBC I

did a few bits and and I really enjoyed

it it was great I was working a lot with

real Ferdinand Stephen Gerrard

um Jake Humphrey who had them recently

and just really good people and and it

was like a step in the game and a step

of retired so I can do other stuff that

you know the life of a pundit is you

know much easier than the manager we all

know that so I kind of put my eggs in

both Baskets at that point I did that

and I did my coaching Badges and I

wanted to kind of see how I felt a

little bit and I didn't want to be a

manager in my 20s when I got to my 30s I

was like that's interesting people

managers now what how what are they

dealing with I just thought about myself

in my 20s more

um and then when I finished I did my

coaching badges I started to quite like

it and then I've got an offer out of the

blue to go and manage Derby Derby County

the owner Mel Morris kind of went out in

a bit of a limb he was speaking to Harry

redknapp who's my uncle

um Harry said to speak to Frank we sat

for two hours in Chelsea in a hotel and

he offer me the job and it was like um

a Christian has a sound and it's like

jump and the net will appear and we sat

in my front room and I was like you know

I've done my coaching badges but this is

a proper job I go to Derby just they've

got some problems and it's going to be a

difficult job or whatever that's all

jobs are and I jumped

why

um

that inner probably drive that I have in

a desire you know it wasn't something

that I I am an overthinker so that

probably made that process that those

couple of days where I had to make a

decision really intense but at the same

time I I like a challenge I love a

challenge and as much as I enjoy

punditry it was

you know it's it's challenging you want

to do it well you want to do it like you

know the top boys do it you have to put

everything into it and do it really well

um but I

I was when I wanted more I wanted to

to get on the grass I wanted to work

with pliers I wanted to try and improve

pliers I wanted to see if I could do it

it's probably more if I'm honest

probably can I do it and can I you know

do something and I was probably naive at

the time because the minute I walked

into Derby I was like wow this is

different you know I've got to hold them

I am now holding the meeting rather than

one of the 25 players sitting listening

and as much as you can think I'll do

that the minute you're walking and you

see those 25 faces and then you walk to

to say hello to Jeanette who's your

secretary and this one and the Playa

liaison I'm like oh

have I got to manage all this as well

and you do you have to sort of you know

the building is yours to kind of set the

tone so that first year some of it was

good you know I think sometimes in

management a great manager said to me

this

he said and he was all he's old he was

old and he said to me I think I was a

better manager when I was young in many

many ways he said because when I as I

got older I started to really sort of

overthink things and become a little bit

more cynical and you know you kind of go

over these things when I was young I

just make decisions and I was kind of

free to do it now I think there's a

balance to that experience is obviously

a clear can clearly help as you go along

you learn from mistakes but I unders I

understood his point when he said that

because I walked into Derby fresh

and I made a lot of mistakes because you

always will but I also had a freshness

and a bounce and a feeling inside I've

made it was kind of I want to take this

on and even though those moments of fear

you know that kind of when you feel like

a bit of imposter syndrome should I be

doing this and you've got hired it like

I remember having a whistle for the

first day and trying to in the training

pitch again

I'm going to blow this at the end of

training and I've been used to hearing

about this sounds so stupid I've been

used to hearing coaches go end of the

session stop I was a bit like what kind

of whistling I didn't want to do like a

little

I don't remember guys so let alone like

I've got a bigger team and set the

tactics and set the tone I was about all

those little stings and I think every if

they were honest I think you know people

in business yourself have all had those

the most simple things where you're

sitting there going wow that little

basic thing that I didn't consider is

now in my head yeah so I had a lot of

those and it was you know we got to the

playoff final we got to Wembley we lost

a final against Aston Villa to get to

the Premier League and I was so

disappointed for the club at Derby and

the owner had given me you know put

everything into me and we had a really

good year and got there and and we lost

it but in terms of um that first year of

management yeah my drive took me into it

and it was just a huge learning curve

and it was a really enjoyable year

imposter syndrome that I mean that's

somewhat linked to I guess your fear of

failure have you how does we talk a lot

about imposter syndrome on this podcast

because it's it's a it's a two it's a

double-sided thing on one hand you have

that feeling of um which I can recall

when I became a dragon on Dragon's Den

and I'm sat next to Peter Jones and

Deborah meaden Peter Jones has been

there for 21 Seasons since the beginning

Deborah Mead has been there for 17 and I

feel like I've just walked into the TV

yeah like your little whistle thing was

me like how do I say I'm out okay

exactly yeah um but being at peace with

that like how do you how have you dealt

with that in your career because you

went from being a pundit to managing a

club that was trying to get promotion to

then Chelsea these are huge leaps

forward yeah huge leaps forward um I

think uh I probably managed to get

coping mechanisms along the way that

have uh put that to the side and in

simple sense

I've become much more confident in

myself

um

away from work away from work actually

at home much more content in myself

again it probably comes back to being

really settled in relationship I am 45

now just turned

um but in the workplace as well I've

um that first year I remember feeling it

a lot and when I moved to Chelsea like

it should be a huge move it's a huge

jump to the Champions League club even

though I knew the club very well it was

a huge jump to deal with players of a

different stature Etc

um but I have found that imposter

syndrome thing much less and I had just

had coping mechanisms where I could kind

of just go

okay you're nervous taking this meeting

because you're a bit out of your comfort

zone you've got to be critical of a

player so you're going to go in on

someone you're going to show a video of

the game the other day and it's like

that's that's not a comfortable thing to

do always and I just probably have found

mechanisms to be able to go right you

almost go into the character and that

doesn't sound like an actor too much but

you're going I'm just going to go into

it and the more I think you do that

um the better you can be at coping with

that thing and then you just kind of

also have to get a realization that you

know you can feel a bit like that you

can feel a little bit like I'm out of my

comfort zone that you can make mistakes

I think showing that you can make a

mistake in front of a group of players

is not the worst thing you know they're

there to the players will get it you

make the smallest mistake one of those

25 at least is going to go well that

when he said that you know but I think

you've got to come to peace with that

and you can even joke about it after the

event because you'll keep making them so

I'll probably come come to terms we've

been able to deal with that side of it I

think I am I I was thinking then as

you're speaking actually about

my experience being a dragon and when um

one of the things I've always wondered

about players when they go from being a

player to a manager and especially when

they've been managed under a legend of a

manager so like I was thinking about

Ollie um oligon Associates Alex Ferguson

yeah how hard is it to like be yourself

versus be the successful manager that

you saw when like because even when I

became a dragon I think for the first

two years for sure I was

trying to be a dragon yeah not being

Steve yeah yeah and that's a that's a

journey but do you understand the

question I completely get it I get asked

it a lot and I'm not in not in exactly

the way you guys but I get asked by

football journalists who say so what did

you take out of all your managers you

play and all this stuff and you know

just to jump to one would be Jose

Mourinho it's a good one to jump to

because he had a huge effect on my

career as many did but he came and

probably elevated me in my playing

career to a different level and what I

learned from Jose and as I then went on

to managers after that was the the thing

that impressed me about Joseph there was

a real authentic nature to him like when

he was self-confident overconfident kind

of brash Jose that's him you know that

was him and you know maybe he's playing

up a bit now and again but I saw him

behind the scenes and then when I've

worked with other managers that maybe

were probably striving to be something

like that and I think after Joe said it

was a there were a generation of

managers that were a bit like okay I'm

gonna wear this I'm going to wear the

scarf and I'm going to type them with

you know or act a bit kind of you know

say those things he used to say and does

say

um and I didn't I didn't buy it as such

and even from outside when you're

watching manager you know you have that

impression so I think probably you go

okay can I take things from all these

managers for my journalist question yeah

I did from Sam and not from others blah

blah but when you come to it you have to

be yourself because you'll get found out

and you're probably right in my early

days I also did that I did my first

meeting at Derby again was like right

I'm an ex player so anyone who wants to

knock on my door come and see me and

I'll you know I'll tell you the truth

and we'll have it out or I'll you know

I'll give you the answer that you want

and I remember like the first three

weeks they kept knocking on the dock I

was like and I was like to do another

meeting so Lads if you're gonna knock on

my door come to me with like facts of

why you should play you know how's your

training you know come with something I

don't want you just I didn't play on

Saturday like Monday morning there's

like five on the door knocking and you

know open policy in a door is good but

at the same time it was like those are

like learning curves for me like I

probably said that that phrase because I

needed to say it right yeah you know

what I mean because there's a place it's

really so really cool things to play I

want the manager to be able to speak to

me all the time and when I said it I was

like Sam what I thought I should say and

then you know you learn a little lesson

you know my daughter hopefully is still

open now but at the same time I was

probably playing the part of a manager

um and then you kind of go now what's

real to me here you know like do I have

to say that it's another way of saying

it or whatever

and that kind of brings me to a question

which is wouldn't it therefore have been

great for you to go and learn those

lessons when the stakes weren't so high

um because even the stakes are super

high at Derby because you're figuring

out Frank the manager there yeah and

sometimes you don't want to be at the

poker table playing with real money yeah

but but that's my life you know I I know

what you're saying and I think as a as

an as a I think I think I can say this I

think it's an English ex-player Stephen

Gerrard others that have played a high

level you know I've played 100 times to

our country Etc I think pla the the the

the culture in this country is the sort

of say right now you're a manager go and

own your stripes there because being a

player of that level doesn't mean you're

going to be a manager so I think that

could have been a route where you can

kind of get a lot of fair play he went

down to you know division two and he's

showing what he's doing and there's a

process the reality is that path wasn't

for me you know and Mel Morris asked me

to take the Derby job it was a question

yeah challenge yes please I'll take the

challenge you know when I won you there

and Chelsea came to me it was a

difficult time at a transfer ban you

know and as I was leaving it was a real

transition young players what's going to

be there next year I think probably some

big managers just have turned it down I

know that so it was like yeah you know

what challenge I'll take it so you know

I don't want to try and recreate the

past I think why didn't I do that

because you know I've managed in four

years of management I've had some

experience and for all the you know

you'll always get criticism you know you

leave Chelsea people will criticize you

you go to Everton you stay up you get

relegated people to criticize you but at

the same time I'm I am resilient enough

to deal with all that stuff now that's

been probably the beauty of having a

long career in football and so my my

thing is I can manage Derby I can go and

manage Chelsea and do it to a good level

as well because I've had successes as

well as when it hasn't gone so well I

mean that's the modern day manager so I

think I probably crammed in a lot of

work in four years and and working at a

high end level with players that will

test you and question you because

Champions League players question you so

it's just my path

the um I mean that's it so Champions

League players questioning you

you don't ever assume that happens I

mean I don't know a ton about what goes

on in the foot in the room but yeah no I

think what when I say that I think in um

the modern day player particularly I

think in previous series it probably

would have been more vocal and you know

but now the modern day player have a

good understanding of the game a lot of

them have been coached in academies very

very well to a high level uh when they

get to the top they also when you when

you you know are setting out tactics

they they'll have questions for you and

and you have to buy into that because

you know the reality is what you want is

them to understand what you want or

sometimes they say something like okay

we might change that you know or

whatever it might be and I think when

you get to the to the top level in

football you have to understand the best

day out now there's a they have to

understand you're the boss and you have

to man they're very clear but at the

same time there will be a lot of

suppliers that will challenge you would

you mean by that boss come to you what

what but what about if that happens you

know and you get a lot more of that and

you I remember reading Pep Guardiola

once said that even if you don't know

the answer pretend that you know the

answer to say that yeah and you know so

you there is a version of that because

you know when you're getting things

thrown at you sometimes it's like you

know football is an active game and I

think sometimes in the modern day we

look at you know on Monday Night

Football you see after the event you

know they should have done this or

people are imagining what um you know

Pep Guardiola or yoga club or fantastic

coaches are doing and it must be this

amazing complicated thing for sure

they're amazing coaches but it's an

active game so if you can give a good

message then the rest is down to the

players at the same time so you just

have to prep them as well as you can but

they will they will challenge it um

that that got me thinking about when I

sat with um Jamie carragher and he was

telling me about all the managers he had

had

um above him when he was playing at

Liverpool and then hearing from all the

United players Nanny and ever and Gary

and Rio about what Sir Alex was like and

and then reading through all of all of

the managers that you've worked under I

mean there's so many of them from Jose

to angelotti

um so many of them I mean there was one

period where I mean the managers were

being sacked every six months it feels

like at Chelsea yeah

um and the thing I garnered from all of

them is that there is actually not a

successful blueprint to being a

successful manager there's not like a

blueprint there's not a way to be a

successful manager some of them are

tactician some of them are man managers

yeah is that accurate it's very accurate

I I agree with that um and Chelsea is a

bit a bit of a unique example because in

my time there they change manager a lot

as you say and I don't think that's the

most productive way to to run a business

in an idle way in terms of football

because in an ideal way you kind of go

we trust in this manager this work with

it here's the idea we're going to go

with it and of course it's the

prerogative of the honest to change that

what we did have at the time was a

fantastic unit within the dressing room

of high Talent High personality that led

the dressing room so we had a great team

and a great Squad and when I say that we

had a spine of players of John Terry

myself Peter check Didier drummer Ashley

Cole I could go on and there were

personalities and sometimes would Clash

but we knew our place we knew we could

rely on him I knew that I would run for

him and he'd run for me and we also had

high Talent of a player that would video

drama would score in every final pretty

much so I think we kind of like bridge

that gap of changing managers

um and so I think when you come back to

the the question of you know great

managers I think sometimes it's um it's

a case of compromising with what you're

working with you have to get the people

skills right and that's the first thing

I learned as a manager for difference

and plan is that you have to deal with

people you've got to try and Inspire

every player within that group and

Inspire the collective so every player

will have a different motivation it

might be money for one it might be I

want to be the best striker in the world

it might be I want to be in front of him

because I don't like him whatever that

is you try and tap into and I think the

greatest of managers my opinion and I

played under as you say a lot and I'm

trying to be one is that they give you

something that you believe in that you

can strive for and you will buy into and

this and it's and sometimes it's a messy

process you know you watch Man City lift

that treble people just now and you

listed the Champions League there will

be so many things we don't know behind

the scenes this player is unhappy had to

do this all these things that come

together and give you that amazing

moment and I had that as Chelsea as a

player and so if you just say go and

tell me what a great managers and me to

go here's an answer for you in one

minute it's like impossible to say man

management that's what all the United

players said about Sir Alex it's the

only thing that they all are completely

agree on they would say he was the best

man manager and um an inconsistent

leader which is an interesting concept

and what I mean by inconsistent leader

is he would treat Gary in a different

way to Nanny to Evra and they all told

me their stories and Rio as well told me

about when

um Sir Alex brought that bottle of

whiskey to his ill grandfather's bedside

and Rio doesn't know how we knew the

favorite brand of whiskey and how we

knew his Grandad was Ill yeah Gary told

me he used to tap him on the shoulder

and say think about your fault your

grandfather's shrapnel which is still in

his shoulder when you go out there today

that kind of bespoke tailored approach

to leadership which is seems to be Sir

Alex Ferguson's um highest accent made

sure and I think that runs into the

modern day like we get very caught up in

in tactics and rightly so the game's

moved on from those days tactically but

those people and and you'll know

yourself you know inspiring people and

as you say to be bespoke and kind of

individualize it and look within the

group and have moments because you know

if you ask me about my career you go

like Frank would you remember out of

those 20 years like do you remember the

meeting where Jose you know played you a

bit higher up I wouldn't he said do you

remember the time that Jose said those

words to you that inspired you and it

could be like one sentence I go yeah I

remember that do you know I mean like

things that stick with me that I

remember that made me go I'm gonna I'm

gonna run for this man he's gonna make

me better you know and I had that and I

think so what you just said there about

Sir Alex Ferguson I think the great

managers to have you look at and they

have it in different styles Pep

Guardiola yoga and klopp everyone will

have a different style of that and

that's a huge part to their success I

think

what do you like as a manager

if you had to do like a self-assessment

I think you go you can ask somebody else

now I don't know

um I know I try and be uh close to the

players as I say my open door thing but

at the same time I think I I try and

find a balance I I think the important

thing for me was when I became a manager

was to not expect anybody any player to

see it how I saw it or train how I

trained or whatever you know for good or

for bad and you have to that's I think a

bit of a skill which you know sir Alex

probably had perfectly so I try and be

as close to the players I try and learn

all the time I'm a coach I want a coach

on the pitch I think my biggest pleasure

is coaching and improving players and

particularly young players and I've had

the you know the fortune to work with

some really good jump players at Derby I

had Mason Mountain Harry Wilson for Kayo

tomorrow and then at Chelsea obviously

Tommy Abraham extra ones and yeah and

Anthony Gordon Etc so I think they are

the real sponges that are a real

pleasure to work with and I love that

part of it being able to speak to them

and you do find and it's a reality and I

remember being an older player you're a

bit more cynical when you're a younger

player you're like they're like a blank

canvas and you can you know push them

and try and push them in that so I'm

probably quite intense with the younger

players

um I try and be as I say inclusive and

I'm always trying to learn

um and and try and just trying to be me

it's a hard answer that one I think

you'd have to ask you know maybe a

member of Staff or a player I picked the

right player because you probably get

different answers because when you work

with I worked at Chelsea recently with

30 players I picked you pick 11 for a

game and like eight subs and the subs

eight Outfield Subs the subs don't

really like you because they're not

starting let alone the other 10 you know

so it's a really hard balance with a

modern Squad to to get there but you

have to try and make it inclusive

because if you're going to get anywhere

you've got to go all together and that

was one of the problems for being

Chelsea this season 30 players is it's

not possible to manage that on the other

this isn't maybe this is even more

difficult question what are you trying

to work on then what are the the areas

of as a leader as a manager you're

trying to work on because I can think of

for myself I can think of a number of

areas where I go you know what that is

still somewhere where I have a recurring

when I reflect in hindsight I go I

need to get better here what is that for

you quite a few things I would say

because

um the other thinker thing comes in

again and I'm a bit of a perfectionist

so you know I always want to try and

improve

um

you know my tactical and and the

personal touch and those things but I

think when I came away from Chelsea I

realized I needed to delegate time

better that was something I was

certainly not great at I've got you you

have your staff for a reason they're

there to support you in a time they'll

be better than you at certain things so

give them it you know and give them that

you obviously oversee that thing and I

probably spent a lot of time

um trying to be across everything

whereas really I probably could have

come back from that and save my own

energy so I think I'll certainly try and

improve that side I did between Chelsea

and Everton for sure to try and save

that I can

um

uh be pretty overreactive sometimes if I

see things I don't like in terms of and

when I study it's always effort or

standards and I think I I am that's one

of the things I'm biggest on is that you

know if you're going to make a mistake

in a game I've got no problem with that

um if you are going to not run for your

teammate if you're not going to train

through the week with an idea that when

I train on Monday that's got a direct

relation to what Saturday is going to

look like if that feeling isn't there

then I probably can either get upset

with a player or maybe kind of distance

to player and I think when you're

working with a group you have to be

careful of that one because not every

player has your mentality so you have to

either try and bring them up to the

party

or if not then they're going to have to

not be there if you're going to have

success as far as I see it and that

sounds really harsh but it's one of

those things where you go if you can

work in a in a in a team and you're

going to take it to exactly where you

want it to be

out of that Squad of 25 if you've got

that kind of I remember manager would

say this you have you know that there's

your six or seven you know you're going

to get every day you're going to train

you're going to come in they're going to

be so active every day you're going to

have the middle group or somewhere in

the middle and you had the ones that

maybe I'm just coming to training you

know or you know I'm a bit sore today

you know that sounds simplistic to say

but you have to try and work if you want

to work in a full Direction and go okay

those six are with me right you try and

Garner them those are the ones that can

kind of pass the message those ones in

the middle okay can we keep pushing and

working between me and the staff to try

and improve them and then the ones that

are there come on can we help them can

they come with us if not you have to

speak to the club and that's where a

club has to be aligned to go okay if you

want to go in that direction and we're

with you okay we'll work that out and

that becomes a recruitment or players

leaving the club I mean that's you know

that's that's the reality that has to be

and that's the reality of business as

well um uh I've just finished writing

this book and it talks about these three

lines and basically says if everybody in

think about a person in your team and if

everybody in the team represented their

cultural values right which is what

you're talking about with your six

disciples there if everybody represented

the cultural values with the bar with

the overall Barbie raised or lowered and

you'll have some people who would

imagine if everyone was like them like a

Frank you know a Frank Lampard or a John

Terry how high that the cultural values

would be raised then you have other

people where if everyone was like them

you'd be relegated yeah and and what to

do with those three cohorts of bar

raises maintainers and barlowers and

that's kind of what I that's a good way

of putting it I mean I and I think the

I think the bar raises can take some

time to raise the bar

but the balras can get you very quickly

yeah yeah that's kind of my experience

because that kind of when that kind of

that consistency or whatever it is you

know like this oh why are we doing this

train why do we have to do or whatever

that kind of negativity which can slip

in can be really contagious and in a

winning Sport and as much as we're

talking here about great managers

winning is is everything you know and

it's that's obviously relative to if

you're a man city or in Everton like

Everton will win kind of 35 40 of games

at Best at the moment and you know that

so you know that they're going to be 65

or so percent of weeks whereas not that

great the balras can go and they lower

it quickly whereas you know if you can

get the razors to take control

um then they that then I think generally

you can kind of get there so it's a

really important thing that's probably

one of the interesting things that as I

say that the transition from player to

manager trying to get that because if

you whether you were one of the bar

raisers or you're in the middle group or

the Law Group when you become a manager

it doesn't matter what you were you've

got to kind of get there get the scripts

of what it is and kind of just push

um so that that's something

I'm trying to improve on everything all

the time and coming away sometimes give

you nice time to to have perspective and

just kind of go I'm going to put it in

line a little bit and it looks a bit

different to what I thought before that

experience in yeah this is I mean I

guess this is why some of the the

greatest managers of all time they hold

on to their Gary Neville's and their you

know their disciples yeah and I've

spoken to Gary about this Gary said to

me in fact when we're filming

Dragonstone recently he said for those

last two years Sir Alex kept me there

because of the my impact on the dressing

room yeah not my impact on the pitch but

on the dressing room I could keep keep

the standard High

um in the modern world I was reading the

stats managers are getting fired quicker

than ever sure and it almost it must be

so difficult to establish Authority when

the play is aware

um that the manager is going to be the

one to be taken out if things don't go

well in business it's not like that

right as a CEO because I own the company

and I am the manager yeah so if there's

if there's Behavior underneath me that's

toxic and contagious I can act yeah the

center of authorities with me yeah

whereas it seems like in a club the

center of authority is really like the

chairman the owner yeah

um sometimes the manager manages manages

to get there but in the modern world we

don't let managers last long enough to

build that Authority no and that's the

tough world that it is and I think you

know you probably have to earn the right

as a manager to get to a club maybe when

you look at the perfect models right at

the top you know and Manchester City is

a good one to talk about now I work with

the city group I have one year playing

there and I could see when I was there

they hadn't arrived at that point but I

could see with the stability from above

and how it run and the vision it was

like we're gonna get they were going to

get somewhere because they had a great

structure and it wasn't like it was

going to get pulled and pushed and

pulled for you know a small period of

time so we're going to get there and

then they hired pep you know they had

not difficult first year but the first

year was kind of him finding his way I

need this I need this and then he's

fantastic coach and they have great

players but if you don't have that

aligned thing where as you said the most

important person at the club in the

modern day in my opinion is the owner

and it is a structure at the top because

they really they set the time maybe it's

financially maybe it's with the sporting

directors and recruitment because you'll

be as good as the players you recruit a

great manager again I don't want to sit

here and drop names that said to me was

when we finished it um my first thing

that Everton we just stayed up skin of

our teeth and he was like randomly to

say congratulations he went Frank don't

rest 80 of your work for next season

will be done in the next month so it was

recruitment so like 20 will be what you

do next year and now the 80 is like

bringing the right players so I think

you know like that that alignment as I

keep saying there is something that you

know if you can get

um and and I know I know they're great

owners and they're great supporting

directors and Recruitment and the

manager and the manager is so you know

critical to it but when you look at last

season 13 managers left their Club I

think it's 13 out of 20 clubs and you're

talking about you know Antonio Conte and

you're talking about Thomas you know

manages at huge successes it shows you

that the landscape's changed to the

point where the manager will be culpable

and I think you have to come you have to

be at peace with that but you have to

try and get to the point very quickly

where you have success and that's tough

because winning is and the modern world

of social media and reaction is like get

him out you know get the next one in you

know sometimes maybe they're right maybe

the manager is culpable but other times

there are there are many things and to

come back to your original point about

players and those stallwalls and the

Gary Neville's and the James Milner at

Liverpool in the last whatever years you

know people on the outside I think it's

very easy to look at the superstars and

most sellers in there I I can guarantee

you and I know this firsthand from

speaking to people people like James

Milner and Jordan Henderson

have absolutely set the tone of that

club for the last whatever years during

great success and if you don't have that

kind of those drivers within that top

six all right I think it's very hard to

sustain its success or get success and

again back to my Chelsea days we had

that naturally and we were actually

quite diverse so it was like John Terry

was like the real Captain like heart on

his sleeve you could see it every day I

was probably like more quiet but like a

trainer and standards and myself and

trying to hope that that would bring

people with us Didier was this sort of

charismatic from the Ivory Coast and

kind of brought in you know that section

of the dressing room and he took a pair

of checks about five languages Ashley

Carl was such a nice lad and you know

best left back the country's probably

ever seen so we had this amazing group

and like if others aren't going to

follow that then very quickly it was

like you're not going to make it

regardless of the manager change it's

like you want you won't survive the

dressing room and that's kind of how it

was it reminded me of a quote that I've

said on this podcast before which is

when the culture is strong the new

people become the culture and when the

coaches week the culture becomes the new

people right because when you have those

that cord of disciples someone coming in

they'll stand out so much yeah if they

don't fit in with you Didier Frank Etc

that they'll instantly be expelled yeah

but when the culture is weak someone

will come in and they'll actually

influence yeah the Dynamics and that's

when you're really from my experience in

business is when you're really really

screwed no that's interesting because I

think in football as well because it's

so topical it's just so much

conversation around it that you know I

managed to Chelsea for seven weeks I

think I did and I spoke a lot about

standards and I was a bit I'm not saying

standards to him I saw you say in every

post match yeah I know it wasn't like

not trying to be clever and go I'm just

gonna this is my line now standards but

it was like it was very evident to me

when I walked in um because you know

having worked at Chelsea as a coach

before and as a player I I do know the

standards I do know that and this is not

a direct criticism of the players either

because when I look at the player

situations where they were and I

understood how it'd been a long year I

walked in on with 10 games to go they've

been there for the whole season and a

lot of players were not playing they

were probably going to leave which we're

seeing now whether they were going to

leave with a club wanted some leave or

they or they hadn't been playing with

the previous managers and I could see in

training that it wasn't the level wasn't

enough it wasn't enough to go and get a

result you know whoever you might want

to say a Brentford at home or at let

alone Real Madrid it wasn't enough and I

can say this now because I said this to

the players and again it's not an

individual criticism that applies

because I also when you're trying to say

you want to be a manager you have to

have a personal understanding of like

human nature if I'm a player that's not

been planned for the last seven months

and I think I'm leaving in four weeks

time I'm probably going to struggle to

motivate that player you know I'm not

I've Got Magic one to motivate that

player so I think it was that probably

the my biggest learning out of Chelsea

was when you talk about standards and

culture I think people get it talks

about standards you know what he talks

about his culture and I you know maybe I

had to catch myself on and not cite

every interview but at the same time it

was if you don't have a building block

of Standards then that winning culture

that everyone goes what's winning

culture you go well then me up I'll try

and explain to you but it has to start

with a basic standard and which for me

is always like trained to a level where

you're going to push your teammate he's

going to push you and then we're going

to be as competitive as it can be we

don't have to win not every team can win

you know this Manchester City pretty

much win the league every year at the

minute so what's success for everybody

else for Brighton it's coming six or

whatever for Newcastle it's wow

Champions League that's huge success so

everyone has a version but my guess is

those teams that have over performed

outperformed they've got something there

which is a basic standard that they just

build on and you know to be fair to

Chelsea they're in a position now where

that's needs to be worked on again it's

a transitional time

that brings me to the quote you said

after your Newcastle game which was the

standards collectively have dropped I

can be honest now um because it's your

last game I might not see them for some

time anymore but low standards are a

symptom of something further Upstream

that's happened and we saw this at

Manchester United I'm a big man united

fan I've seen a a decade five years of

just like chaos where we've got these

amazing players but one plus one equals

1.5 we call it dis economies of scale

yeah in great culture one plus one

equals three you know where you can make

great average players together play yeah

amazing the football of their lives the

furthest Upstream thing where did the

standard start to slip what is the thing

that happens in a club like Chelsea in

your experience when you went back there

that had caused that dropping of

Standards which we now saw on the pitch

with your sort of 10 games there well I

think um

when I was tongue-in-cheek by the way

when I said I'm not going to see them

again because it was a bit like as I

said I wouldn't say I've hadn't said it

to him and I've said it a few times but

the position of it was that and I think

the biggest thing about the standards

thing was the the size of the squad it

was the the motivation of players that

um you're gonna not play or you're out

of the Champions League squad or these

things like it's like asking you know

one of you you I don't know you maybe

love doing this this is like one of your

great mom you know I want to sit and you

want to speak to all these fantastic

people that you speak to so thanks for

your prep Steven now Peter Jones is

going to do it

cheers how long are you going to go with

that yeah so and I think in football

that's is that's a challenge with 20 or

so players which is the modern Squad but

with with Chelsea it's got very big to

the point where it's just how I felt

where I can say you know I'm not

criticizing that player for a dropping

standards I want to try and get

something out of him because I had a

short period I want to try and get

something out of him so I'll try but

then when you actually look at it you

kind of go yeah but he's had this for a

long time where he's not playing so he's

not now being competitive with that

player who is playing so that plays

pretty comfortable too because he's not

pushing him so you kind of get this

thing where you're like you know we

probably took it for granted in some of

my better days at Chelsea when we were

successful of like this kind of thing

that works you know it wasn't even a

thing you said you know you didn't have

to sort of have a meeting every day and

go you know one of those standards

culture you know a nice pie chart and

that's what that is it was almost like

this is what we do and at the minute

sometimes for whatever reason there's a

transition of maybe new ownership you

know not everything was perfect before

the new ownership I was there before no

ownership as well like to find

consistency as Chelsea would really want

of winning Premier League titles and

challenging has been a good few years

now so I think that getting the squad

right

um being able probably a fresh voice as

a manager coming in now who's obviously

a fantastic manager with a great record

to come in and go no this is the way and

now the squad looks compact you're going

to compete with each other and try and

create a great environment everyone is a

great environment to have success you

know you cannot have a success with that

team spirit and togetherness so when I

got there I could just see that that the

the spirit and the togetherness was not

then it was nothing bad you know like it

was not bad to go for the week I could

just see like you have to train Elite to

be elite you have to and that's not you

know the Monday players play every few

days sometimes when I say that it's not

like show me how many Sprints you can do

every day it's like okay if we're doing

prep tomorrow give me that intensity of

of thought about what what this is for

you and I mean sit in your face but in

the Chelsea when you did that you had to

go right if I want to really focus on

the 10 or 11 for tomorrow that means

I've got to have like 18 players over

there and you kind of saw the body

language as they walked off some of them

that they were like again because

they've been having it all season some

of them so I on a human level I

completely understood and in the end it

was like I came back here because

obviously this was an opportunity to

come to my club you know Chelsea a Club

close to my heart but as soon as I got

in I realized that probably I thought

you know what 30 players but I can

motivate in six seven weeks because it's

not like a long term thing I can come in

and be fresh

um but in terms of when I came in I

noticed very quickly that some players

are probably thinking about the season's

going to Peter out and what's the future

going to look like and that was a a

difficult situation it never crossed my

mind that's the size of the squad has

such a big impact but it makes perfect

sense because you need that sort of

healthy competition and I believe your

first team was was it 32 players

yeah which is more than you're allowed

to register for the Premier League or

Champions League so you had this kind of

surplus of a lot of players a few a few

are always injured probably you know so

that comes down a bit but it's a surplus

and it's a surplus of

um yeah the the the makeup of the squad

is International Players generally

because if there were a couple of young

players but when you try and build a

squad it'll be like this is you know

this is my core kind of 15 or 16 and

then you go and maybe these these two

experienced players that might not need

to play really and then we've got these

kids that are waiting and they're like

just happy to be there they want to play

they're going to be training and if you

give them an opportunity they'll be like

but when you have like international

players in a big number then of course

you know you're telling Internationals

you've got to stay at home it's not it's

not easy and you know to have the

conversation every Friday with them and

get them lined up coming in is also not

easy for your own energy do you know

what I mean so I that's not easy I don't

care how what kind of uh a manager you

are like it's like next you're not

playing okay next you're not playing you

know like whatever however you try and

box that up to a player eventually

they'll probably have I know I'm not

playing you know like stop telling me

this do you know what I mean so I

think you know that that was an

interesting learning curve for me like

an interim job is is what it is

um and I kept getting asked you know

people it was kind of frustrating but at

times like are you finding this so hard

and you find this hard I was like you

know what I'm back home in the club that

I love you know a fantastic training

around I'm doing everything I can in

this job to try and improve it but there

were I knew behind the scenes there are

a lot of things you know myself and my

staff we want to improve but we want to

coach we want to sort of when you when

you lack those Basics and as I say I I

think there's an understanding the club

that it has to change now I think it has

to it has to change then if you like

those Basics then it it's really hard to

get where you want to get to what how

does that happen though so there's these

32 players and then Chelsea spends more

money than it I think anyone's ever

spent in a window in that sort of

January window you bring in all of these

players on these long contracts which

I've never heard before I think it was

like eight year contracts and they're

all like class amazing individual

players

um is that a is that because the the new

owner doesn't understand those dynamics

of football because that's what it

seemed like for me I thought either this

is a genius or an idiot yeah you know I

don't want to criticize anyone like on a

personal level but as a fan looking and

I go signing these players on eight year

contracts they're great players spending

all this money the impact on culture

when you just throw stars in at such

quantity yeah it looked it looked like

an experience and um naivety I think

that's

um

that's understood now in terms of what

it's meant with those 30 players and I

think you've seen that now in that

already I think I'm six seven eight

players have left

so I think but the intentions are

certainly good I know that because I

work the owners gave me an opportunity

to go in there and I had a good

relationship with them their intentions

to do a good job at Chelsea are amazing

they want to take the club and be the

best you know they have great intentions

so now I think those younger players now

with

um a new voice a new manager the squad

come inside I think they'll have a

greater chance to show what they've got

anyway and they're talented players and

you know I remember being in Chelsea

when Eden Hazard arrived and pre-season

was like is this kid maybe a bit lazy

looking you know it was a bit kind of

strolling around this kid definitely and

then that first season it was like I

know it's really good and then on the

second and Thursdays like now this kid's

one of the best players the Premier

League's seen or whatever see everyone

video drug but like you can go through

all these players who are who are like

absolute Legends now if you're asking

you know those five six seven players to

come in and hit the ground running in a

difficult moment for the club it's

understandable so I think as a Chelsea

fan you know you look at it and kind of

go right okay that that is positive

there's Talent there okay it needs to be

worked with now I'm sure that you can

see the squads getting trimmed and as I

can say you know hand on heart the

intentions of the owners is absolutely

no they've spent that money because they

want to do well now if they're going to

address the situation a bit that's their

strategy going forward but I do think

you know you'll see players like Enzo

Fernandez Madrid and these players

madoiki young players they're going to

develop and they're going to be big

players for the club they you have to

get the structure writing the strategy

right going forward what what's a my

thing is that adding like I know six or

seven of these players all at once

pretty much halfway through the season

um in a squad that's already struggling

to figure out who it is under Graham

Potter

um it begs the question like who's doing

the recruitment here because at other

clubs it's a much more Strate it seems

like a much more strategic and

intentional and football driven approach

to recruitment whereas from what I saw

at Chelsea and I have actually spoken to

some people at Chelsea who are involved

in recruitment it seemed like chaos yeah

I mean I wasn't there for that period

right so that was in I got there in

April and like so January was the last

window and obviously they spent last

summer but I think the the change of

ownership and then obviously there's

some people moved on who were in the

hierarchy of the club and so they was

changing so there was a big change of

structure so I think you have to give

um some time and some leeway for the

process and they're certainly now are

sporting directors recruitment people in

there having work with them who are very

talented very hungry you know good to go

and I think now it will be

um up to them to take the club forward

they haven't signed bad players I think

this maybe the the

strategy of bringing them all in at that

time you know looks a bit excitable at

the minute as in terms of there's a lot

of players to success but I think

probably there's a long game and I think

there's a plan and I think probably most

huge clubs like Chelsea have had a

version of what this period is

Manchester United you mentioned there

Arsenal for quite a long time Liverpool

for periods you know so I think um we

have to give different I think to to

over judge now when I think they have

signed some good players would be to to

be over critical I think at the moment I

think that the proof will be now how

these players develop once now it feels

a bit more settled going forward I think

that's I think that's all true I think

um what's the optimal way for player

recruitment to happen in your opinion

because I've you often hear about these

stories of where you know I know will

take charge of a club and then they'll

just decide who they want which is

probably what I'd be like if I was an

owner I think I would like football

manager I think I just buy who I who I

want to buy who I think looks good um

Manchester United suffered with that it

felt like our decisions were commercial

decisions as opposed to footballing

decisions then when Eric 10 hugs come in

it feels a bit more like kids football

decisions and what in your opinion and

then I did speak to some people at