This isn't military action. This is a

war. There's one

>> excursion. The word he's using now. It's

an excursion.

>> Like a field trip.

>> Hi everyone. This is Pivot from New York

Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast

Network. I'm Carara Swisser

>> and I'm Scott Galloway.

>> Scott, did we have a good time in

Minneapolis?

>> Oh, that was wonderful. And thank you to

the the wonderful people of Minneapolis.

I thought it was great. I I've never you

know what was really the the community

or you know maybe we got a not a

representative sample I'd like to think

we got a representative the community

seems very unified right now. Yeah,

absolutely. People drove from North

Dakota. There was

>> wherever that is or Iowa. We had a

lawyer from Iowa come.

>> Yeah. Judge,

>> by the way, shout out. We know who you

are. There's this wonderful woman who's

a lawyer in family court and she

commutes seven hours a week and she said

that uh excuse me. She said judge. Yeah.

And she said we're her we're her best

friends.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It was great. And people

were great. Anyway, we've got a lot to

get to today. I'm going to dig in.

First, the war in Iran is sending oil

prices on a wild ride this week and

creating what the International Energy

Agency says is quote the largest supply

disruption in the history of the global

oil market. Okay, that's kind of

something. As of this recording, oil is

still very high, slowly coming down from

over $100 a barrel after ships were

attacked in the Persian B Gulf. There's

also the tax still going on. Gulf uh gas

prices continue to climb as well. And

just remember, it's not just gas prices.

Every price goes up when gas goes up.

The IEA's 32 member countries are

releasing a record 400 million barrels

of oil from strategic reserves to

counter the chaos, which means we aren't

going to feel this yet. Uh I interviewed

uh Senator Warner yesterday and he was

noting that um Trump has tried to calm

markets. He keeps trying to to do this

to bring these oil prices down by words

saying the war is quote very complete

only to later announce we haven't won

enough. Oil prices also plunged after

energy secretary Chris Wright

incorrectly posted that US Navy had

escorted a tanker through the straight

of Hormuz. So that was a problem. The

post was deleted within minutes was

enough to move markets and wipe out uh

million billion million dollar trades.

Um this is such a taco. This is the

greatest taco of all I think. And even

if the war in Iran ends soon, returning

the straight of Hermuz to typical

traffic could take one to three months.

We're going to see reverberations of

this ridiculous situation. um the way

he's handling it and the way he's not it

seems all over the place. Um and also to

to add to the kind of mess there, the

initial findings of a military

investigation say that US was

responsible for that deadly tomahawk

missile strike on the Iranian elementary

school. It's actually causing a lot of

strife within MAGA. By the way, the

report notes officers like and

everywhere else, normal people and MAGA.

Um the report notes officers likely used

outdated information to label the school

as a military target. Trump has tried to

put the blame on Iran earlier this week,

claiming they also have the tomahawks,

which everyone thought was ridiculous.

And when asked about the military report

on Wednesday, Trump said he knew nothing

about it. Um, we'll get to the the

photography scandal at the Pentagon, but

talk a little bit about what's going on

with oil prices and this the school,

which is just I feel like we should take

responsibility when we make an error,

such a terrible error. But go ahead,

start.

>> I'll go I'll go in reverse order. When

you're handling a crisis, and this is a

crisis, the death of civilians,

especially children, is obviously pretty

ugly. You acknowledge the issue, you

take responsibility, and you try and

overcorrect. And they've done nothing of

the sort. And there's in a war, and this

is a war. This isn't military action.

This is a war. There's

>> an excursion, the word he's using now,

it's an excursion,

>> whatever that means. Excursion.

>> I went on a bike,

>> like a field trip, like

>> Exactly. My daughter went on an

excursion. except he didn't get

Congress's approval the day before that

he could go on the excursion. Um, you

know, it's a tragedy. Uh, they just made

a bad situation worse. First off, they

look incompetent by saying that it might

have been a tomahawk from Iran. Iran

doesn't have tomahawks. So, it it looks

like, okay, I'm not willing to own up to

this. I mean, there's not a good answer,

but there's a reasonable answer here,

and that is

>> Yeah, this we decided to go, you know,

with military action. This is a This is

a group of people who killed 30,000 of

its own people. War is going to have

collateral damage. We screwed up. We

take responsibility. These are the

following steps we're putting in place

to make sure it doesn't happen again.

And take responsibility for it and it

would have been not over, but it would

have been acceptable. Instead, it's

like, no, it was Iran's fault. It just

doesn't

>> or I didn't know.

>> Yeah. Oh,

>> Pegasus was the same way. It was it was

and was angry when people asked about

it, which is the everything wrong in the

response and everything wrong in the

mistake. But you're right. Absolutely.

>> Yeah. And the the real I mean, we're

just we're just starting to see.

So, I was speaking to a kid and um and I

said, "What what you know, where do you

want to be in 5 years?" I always ask

young men that. Where do you want to be

in 5 years? And this kid said, "Uh, I'd

really love to have my own auto repair

shop focusing on EVs."

>> Mhm.

>> I said, "Okay, well then let's reverse

engineer from those things." Like, what

kind of skills do you need to acquire?

What kind of job certification?

What kind of capital or money would you

need to um uh start something like this?

>> Uh have a business plan. Would what kind

of real estate would you need? What

would be your you know, let's reverse

engineer everything you need basics,

right? Let's reverse everything,

engineer everything to today around what

you would need to be an owner of an EV

repair shop in uh he lives in the

outskirts of Los Angeles. Just the

loveliest young kid. Anyways,

we can't even reverse engineer the

tactics because I don't think anyone is

really clear yet on what the endgame is,

what the end goal is.

>> Mhm.

>> And that is if they had said, "All

right, we're going to diminish their

launch capability from missiles." Makes

all the sense in the world. It's more

about the launchers and the missiles

because you can bury the missiles under

under

>> these are ballistic missiles for people

who don't know.

>> We can we are going to make sure that

the straits of Hormuz are more secure

than they were uh previous to this and

we're going to work with our Gulf allies

to create a series of mind sweepers and

and enforce the border. I mean, and

we're going to take out the navy and

we're going to take out the munitions

infrastructure that builds this stuff.

These are the three boxes we need to

check.

>> Can I interject since I just interviewed

Warner about this? One of the things

that they've talked about is going in

and getting the enriched uranium, but

that would actually be would take, as

they say, boots on the ground and it

would be

>> not viable. Not feasible.

>> Not feasible unless we want a lot of

Americans to die.

>> Yeah. As is quite frankly, as is regime

change. I mean,

>> this regime is sticking pretty strongly.

>> Oh, they're not collapsing.

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I think Khi had the

likelihood of regime change at like 10%

by the end of March or something like

that right now.

Anyways, it's like, well, okay, in war

you always have to have plans A prime

and plan B because the enemy gets a say

in this. But the problem is no one can

identify plan A.

>> No, they ate it. They ate it. They the

the dog ate my homework. Can I ask you

about the oil prices because I think

that's something that's going to people

don't recognize. And um you the idea of

trying to calm the market by releasing

incorrect information, letting it go,

you know, whipssaw all over the place.

And this release of these 400 million

barrels is going to have repercussions

later because that's when the prices

will go up, these strategic reserves.

And what they're they're trying to do

everything possible to pretend we're not

going to have a real crisis between the

straight of Hormuz and this release. Um

and so it they it has second order

problems. Now Wall Street's sort of

sloughing it off a little bit. Um but

these are prices that are going to

reverberate through the system as you

have noted. So look, the biggest loser

here is obviously

um the people of of Iran who are in the

wrong place at the wrong time, right?

The the there is no bigger loser than

the families who lo lose loved ones. I

also think the reputation of the US and

what was an opportunity to create much

stronger alliances with moderate nations

in the Gulf. So big losers. What people

aren't talking about, the countries that

import more than 50% of their oil,

Japan, South Korea, India, and most of

Europe have seen their markets hammered,

absolutely hammered. Uh poor countries

with no foreign exchange reserves uh and

dollar denominated debt can't, you know,

are could be thrust into the IMF or

effectively what is bankruptcy. Airlines

and hospitality companies all over the

world, shipping, the bunker fuel cost

Warner said he's been meeting with

airline executives and they said they're

fine for now but it's going to be $25

million a day extra which is crazy.

>> I mean nations who import their oil

especially who get most of it through

the straits of Hormone their economy

basically their economies are like [ __ ]

for the year at a minimum. So there this

is having you know we have obviously the

biggest losers by body count are Iran

but by by economic collapse Middle

Eastern oil importers Jordan, Lebanon,

Egypt and fragile emerging markets

Pakistan.

>> Guess who's doing great? Russia.

>> Yeah. gives him the need he need he was

really on the on the ropes around the

million the million people who have died

and also the price of oil and now he has

more money to spend while we ignored uh

help from the Ukrainians on drones and

one of the things Warner was pointing

out was that fine we could take out

their battleships but their real problem

is all those small fast boats and their

drones they can just do all manner of

damage to us in that with these small

$50,000 drones and we use a million

dollar rocket to take it out. I mean,

this is the problem is they have an

ability to do this and they've been

they're, you know, the way Warner

described it, these this country is hard

is is hard enforced like hard like

hardwired. This this is not Venezuela.

This is Trump lives like he's in some

movie where you just do three bombs and

that's the end of it. But this is a

hardwired

150,000 people in this in this ruling uh

group in Iran. And they're not giving up

all this money and all this power for I

don't know. It's it's a really difficult

situation which they didn't.

>> They're just thinking about the market,

the winners and losers. The hardest

stock markets

>> are Middle Eastern markets. Jordan,

Egypt, Lebanon, their stock market's

greater. There's a capital flight to

safety. I mean, the ironic thing here is

that over the long term, our reputation

is in tatters. We're probably the least

damaged because we're energy

independent. We produce more energy than

we consume. We have two oceans

protecting us. Friendly Canada to the

north, harmless harmless Mexico to the

south. We still have capital inflows. In

a weird I mean, it's just terrible to

say, but in a weird way. Our markets are

probably least damaged by this. Europe

cost. There'll be costs for airlines.

There'll be costs for uh truckers.

There's going to be costs for home

heating. Thank goodness it's not winter,

right?

>> The dollar's already strengthened. I

mean,

>> it's it's ironic, but when you diminish

the entire world, there's a flight to

safety, and flights to safety usually

benefit the US. Emerging markets are

going to get the [ __ ] kicked out of

them. India, Brazil, South Africa,

Mexico, capital flowing out to the US

dollar for safe havens. The US will

likely be down 8 to 10% on a tariff

ruling or was down but it could be down

another 10 to 15% and that'll be I'll

talk more about that in our prediction

but you're going to have a pretty big

big peak to trough but that some of that

might just be the air coming out of the

bubble but to your point the least

damaged in the Middle East or Saudi

Arabia and the UAE but the big winner

here as you said is Russia oil the oil

price spikes the oil price spike

benefits them the US is distracted by

Iran. So more Ukraine leverage and oddly

the the ruble strengthens. So

>> yep,

>> this is

>> war is literally the agent of unintended

consequences.

>> Y

>> and this is so frustrating because if

this had been more like fore and less

like a rock and they'd set out a series

of achievable objectives

>> that this could have been a win. It

could have been the Gulf States coming

together

>> and if they had said, "Look, to a couple

European nations and to the Gulf States,

a stable Middle East benefits all of us.

Let's all have a series of objectives

and we're going to pay for and execute

against most of this. We could have

strengthened our alliances."

>> We've been dragged around by Israel

here. In a lot of ways, it looks like

it. Let me let me move on.

>> See, I disagree. I think we're very

tightly coordinated with Israel right

now.

>> I talked to Warner who's in the gang of

eight. I'm going to go with him over

you. I'm sorry to say that, but you

know, I think it was that they were

>> You went with the senator over Scott.

>> Yes. Yes, I damn. Um I think they were

going to attack and we decided to be the

senior partner like that's rather than

create something else because

>> Well, you mean Iran was going to attack

Israel? Israel's attack.

>> No, no, no. Israel was going to attack

Iran. That I mean that's the implication

he had. And

>> and Senator Warner feels like we did not

have the power to say stop.

>> Well, he doesn't know why we didn't.

That was one of his questions. He he's

he's surprised. He He seemed wor more

worried. He's usually not a worry wart,

but he seems worried about two things.

How this was conducted, obviously,

>> and what the real implications are,

especially around drones and small boats

that could do enormous damage to our

battleships and everything else, and

also election security. Um, but one of

the the weirder parts is how the the

administration has behaved. Um, Donald

Trump was dancing last night or golfing

and stuff like this, so the visuals

aren't very good. And the DoD has now

barred press photographers from Iran

briefings after publishing photos of

HEGs staff found unflattering according

to the Washington Post. Hex says vanity

aside, um it just they just look like

like he looks like a fatuous popping and

jay at all times. But in this case, the

lack of seriousness about something

that's very serious seems problematic.

And it's also causing problems within

their own group of mega. There's a real

shift. There's a real like sort of

Tucker Carlson and Megan Kelly u MTG on

one side um and then you know Mark

Levin, Ben Shapiro, all this there's a

real ugliness. I I went over I wandered

over to Twitter which I shouldn't have

done and the the nastiness between them

is really quite something. It's really

quite something to watch.

>> Like imagery is so incredibly powerful.

Basically, I think one photograph

brought didn't bring an end to the

Vietnam War, but expedited it. And it's

that that's it's that incredibly

dramatic photo of the the young girl

running from a napal bombing. And with

the Iraq war, George Bush and the

Pentagon, they banned photos of service

member coffins because he realized war

is so ugly that that it'll lose support.

And there's just and the notion that

these guys can't handle the images of

Pete Hegathth in an unflattering I mean

it's just uh it shows you're spending

you're allocating your capital in the

wrong places that's not that's not what

you should be thinking about or worried

about. And if you think you can control

the imagery of Pete Hacksath, well,

okay, just wait till you see the images

that are going to come out of Iran. And

you can already sell see that the IRGC

is quite frankly organizing again and

going on an information campaign.

>> They are and they've been very good.

Iran in general has been one of the

stronger players uh in th in those

spaces in terms of propaganda and

everything else. And so that's why

>> when you say good, you mean effective.

They they lie like there's no tomorrow,

>> of course. But hello, lots of people do.

Lots of governments do. Um,

>> oh, I don't know. I think I think Iran

takes it to a new level.

>> They do, but but they are, when I say

good is they're good at it. Um, they're

very um they're all throughout all the

various social networks. They're very um

they did one the other day which I was

sort of fascinated by where they put up

your president as a pedophile. Um which

was interesting. um they just they've

been at it for a long long time and they

have used often when there's stuff that

pops up online it's either Russia or

Iran. um China to an extent too, but

really Iran has used social media as one

of the smaller I mean it is a smaller

country than Russia or less powerful and

it has used social media to its

advantage in ways that are really of

course heinous because it's conspiracy

theories and you you always find them

somewhere in they're at the top everyone

I ever interview in cyber security are

the top in cyber security issues in uh

propaganda in conspiracy theories and

they have a very welloiled machine

throughout the world doing this kind of

stuff. So,

>> well, when the actual audit of social

media is done, I think we're going to

find that somewhere between 10 and 40%

of comments and posts

>> Yeah.

>> on geopolitical accounts or accounts of

influencers

is going to have originated from either

the CCP, the GRU, or the RGC.

>> Yep. Absolutely.

>> And this is what you do. You see a piece

of content and then you look at the

comments to evaluate and shape your own

view of that content.

>> Mhm.

>> And when

>> it's all gamed

>> Yeah. And it it has a huge impact. You

don't even recognize how much impact it

has on your views of stuff because if

someone says,

>> "Oh, the US the US will be able to

escort ships through the straits of

Hormuz." I'm just using an example.

>> And then there's just a ton of stuff

saying that'll never happen. Oil prices

are going to be at $200.

>> Mhm. All right. Where's that comment

coming from?

>> Right.

>> And and unfortunately, although they

could put in places to verify accounts

and get rid of fake accounts and fake

comments, you know, I mean, just go on

these really sensitive pages or

sensitive opinions and click on who made

the comment and it's someone with three

followers.

Okay, that's not a person,

>> right? And the question is why would

someone be making this comment or what

entity would have an interest in these

comments?

>> Yep.

>> Anyway, I

>> we're going to talk about that later

because there's a major report from the

Center for Countering Digital Hate

that's really interesting around chat

bots. Um but we're going to move on uh

and we have lots to talk about, but

there this story is going to continue in

our reberations obviously. Um, but when

uh we're going to go on a quick break

and when we come back, Anthropics sues

the Pentagon and Microsoft comes to

Anthropic's defense.

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Scott, we're back with more news. The

White House is reportedly preparing an

executive order to formally ban

anthropic across the federal government,

which is likely illegal. The Defense

Department CTO Emil Michael, and let me

just say I covered him and he's a a

toading bully, just said on CNBC that

Anthropic would quote, "pollute the AY's

supply chain." We've only done this for

foreign companies. Just so you know,

this kind of behavior. All this comes as

Anthropic is officially suing the

Pentagon for labeling it a supply chain

risk, effectively blacklisting the

company from federal contracts. This has

never been done to an American company.

Uh, Anthropic argues the government

overstepped its authority and violated

the company's First Amendment rights.

And now Microsoft is getting in the mix.

The company threw its support behind

Anthropic this week, urging the federal

court to temporarily block the Pentagon

supply risk designation in an amicus

brief. Uh, Microsoft warned uh that the

unprecedented move would have quote

broad negative ramifications for the US

tech industry. And they're damn right.

Scott, before we go further, I want to

play a prediction you made last week.

Let's listen. My prediction is no. And

that is Dario Amodi has given license

and permission to CEOs to say no. And in

the next 30 days, you are going to see a

raft of CEOs find their testicles and

start saying no to this administration.

>> So you were right, Scott. Uh so let's

talk about that them saying no. And it's

not just Microsoft. 37 AI researchers at

OpenA and Google, not the companies

themselves, also filed a brief

supporting anthropic. Um, you know, I'm

going to just very quickly comment that

the this what the government's doing

here is really unprecedented. It's a

disagreement with a company and instead

of just disagreeing and moving on, they

are attacking them in the most

ridiculous ways, trying to make an

example of anthropic and really hurt

their business. I need you all to

understand Emil Michael's role here

because the the these people all have

other interests and agendas that have to

do with their previous life in Silicon

Valley and their future life in Silicon

Valley. And Emil Michael's always, as I

said, been a toading bully to powerful

men. And this is what he's doing here.

Um, and he's not a he is not a um a

player that is in any way um you know,

sort of neutral. He's not doing things

for you and I in in this government.

He's doing things in his own

self-interest if would be my guess. And

so the the attacks on anthropic right

behind him is all manner of competitors

of Anthropic that are using the federal

government to uh hurt a company that

decided not to want to do something. And

I'm glad Microsoft uh stood up for them.

Scott,

>> I think this is the biggest story in

tech. And so just a quick a quick recap.

Um, Anthropic had basically two ass

um, and both pretty narrow. They didn't

want uh, Claude to be used for fully

autonomous weapons, meaning AI, not

humans making final lethal uh, targeting

decisions, which seems reasonable. And

the second one was no use of cloud for

mass domestic surveillance of Americans.

And the Pentagon responded that it does

not intend to use COD for those

purposes, but refused to contractually

commit to that, arguing that it it can't

lead tactical operations by exception

and that legality is the Pentagon's

responsibility. And then on the U about

2 and 1/2 weeks ago, Trump posted on

True Social directing every federal

agency directing every federal agency to

immediately seize all use of anthropics

technology.

And then Hexath designated anthropic as

a supply chain risk. Okay, that is

that's a label which was which has been

reserved for foreign adversaries.

>> Yeah, I just said that. Yeah.

>> And companies linked to the Chinese and

Russian government. Well, I'm saying it

again, Carol.

>> Right. Okay, fine.

>> The supply chain the supply chain risk

status.

First off, that's this isn't just the

government saying, "Okay, you don't want

to work with us, we don't want to work

with you." Mhm.

>> If they say if they label them as a

supply chain risk, then already uh a 100

plus enterprise companies have reached

out to Anthropic and said, "We may not

be able to use you." A financial

services company posits negotiations

regarding a $50 million contract.

A pharmaceutical firm, financial

technology company. I mean, they can't.

This really is an ex when you're labeled

sort of an enemy of state. This is

equivalent of like you're a corporate

enemy of state or threat. I say threat.

Anthropic has now filed a lawsuit

against the Pentagon saying that

Congress's procurement laws don't

authorize blacklisting a US company over

protected speech. That's what this is.

They get they get to work with or not

work with who they want. And the supply

chain designation is is just not it's

just not legal. And it sets a dangerous

precedent for any American company.

>> Lose most people. The government will

lose. But it will have an effect. Yes.

Yes. The government will lose, but it'll

still have the effect. This is a Trump

thing. He creates a real problem whether

it's anthropic

>> and companies won't work with them until

they figure it out

>> and then it causes damage just like they

done at you know when they fire all of

Voice of America. Now they've lost in

court and Carrie Lake is an idiot but

it's already caused damage and caused

damage to it and that's the goal is

they're going to push it illegally as

far as they can and then they'll be

stopped but by the time they're stopped

Anthropic is badly affected. And if you

all don't think this is a Silicon Valley

rumble happening here, it's all in the

self-interest of private companies who

have an interest in slowing anthropic

down. And if you look at the links

between Emil Michael and the rest of

these these these clowns,

>> they have financial interest and

competitors

>> just this. Yes, they do. And so this is

a way that Silicon Valley the penny

Silicon Valley used to ignore government

for the most part and then the penny

drop that they're easy to pay for and

that they can do their competition with

each other in the federal government by

pretending they're working for us as

people are getting spots putting their

putting their people in the various

spots right that will cause it. This is

a Silicon Valley corporate beef

happening. It's that is what's occurring

here. The one that's been most

outspoken, I'm trying to connect his

financial interest, which I'm sure is

driving his rhetoric, is David Sachs.

>> David Saxs, Mark Andre, please

understand there are shadow people

behind these actions that you need to

pay attention to. And Trump is, you

know, sort of a useful idiot. I'm I'm

sure they make fun of Trump behind his

back. Um, but, you know, it's all in

their economic self-interest to hurt

this company. And they couldn't hurt

them by being better. So, this is how

they're doing it. this is what they're

doing.

>> But it comes down this is the this is

the fulcrum that determines if companies

continue to show some backbone and by

the way good for Sachi Nadella um

showing some backbone here at again

risk. So

the

calcia is saying that anthropics like

the likelihood anthropic wins the case

is 72%.

In the meantime, companies will say,

"Hey, that site license we're about to

sign with anthropic, we're just going to

wait. We're apologize. This is terrible.

>> We love you. We think you're techn

>> We we we can't sign this contract right

now." To to your point, Microsoft and a

group of 22 retired senior military

officers have filed amicuses amicus

briefs in support of Anthropic and its

lawsuit.

But what's interesting is that consumers

are speaking. The enterprise is running,

but consumers are running towards

Anthropic. Downloads of the cloud app

spiked more than 75% after Trump

prompted federal agencies to stop using

Anthropic. And on the flip side,

uninstalls of Chat GPT

uh Chat GPT's mobile app spiked roughly

300%

the day after Trump's proclamation. So

the the the question is who wins in the

mind of anthropics board here the fear

and the stasis that has been created in

the enterprise market or consumers

running towards a company they think is

finally showing some

>> I think it's damaging I think this is

the this is such a Trump way to do this

is create

>> philanthropics more enterprise

unfortunately

>> I I know create chaos

>> and damage and it's legal but do the

punch Even if it's like I'm not a boxer,

but if you do like a kidney punch, you

do a you hurt the person and then you're

like, "Oh, did I do that? I didn't know

I did that." And you use your minions uh

and I cannot underscore again what a

minion Emil Michael is. Um to do your

dirty work and pretend you're working

for the government. It's the whole thing

is such a This is such a fixed fight. I

can't even you need to and I think

reporters should really spend a lot of

people don't know these characters.

Again, this was an ex Uber executive.

He's been involved in a lot of stuff in

Silicon Valley, but he had to leave Uber

under please go watch look at our

reporting on him many years ago. Um he

had to leave Uber under very difficult

circumstances around the rape of a woman

in India um in an Uber. Um, but just um

just go go Google them reporters who are

covering this and stop acting like Emil

Michael has is this clean character. In

any case, I'm sure he'll come after me,

but it's true. Um, so I I'll win on that

regard. Um, anyway, um, we're going to

move on. Uh, another thing that again,

Silicon Valley just can't stop stealing

essentially. Grammarly launched an

expert review AI feature that gives

editing suggestions supposedly inspired

by well-known writers and journalists.

Casey Newton discovered the tool was

attributing advice to him and others

even though they never agreed to

participate. The feature even generated

advice under the name of a certain tech

journalist, Cara Swisser. Um they've

they've stopped that now. They've gotten

they they pulled back on it apparently.

But what an incredible bunch of

information and identity thieves. I

don't know what to say. Anytime these

people can steal, they steal. They're

such shoplifterss. I don't your

thoughts. Well, it goes back to this

mindset and I thought one of the I think

there's looking glasses into people's

souls, how they treat their pets, how

they treat service staff is sort of a

you know when is their guard down when

there are certain tells, right?

>> And one of the tells that was really

frightening when Sam Alman was asked

about the energy consumption of AI. He

said, "What people don't take into

account is the amount of energy it takes

and the amount of investment and

resources it takes to get a human to a

point where it can make logical

decisions and engage in critical

thinking."

>> Mhm.

>> He said, "If you look at how much energy

and input and resources it takes to

raise a child such that it can get to a

point where it can make decisions,

>> AI is better." I found that so

nihilistic and so inhuman because what

Silicon Valley

>> or at least some of the individuals we

talk a lot about don't realize is that

>> we try and get ROI economically such

that we can make low ROI investments in

relationships and people we love. I'm

not getting I am not getting an ROI back

for my children on any sort of economic

level.

>> Well, you use a lot of energy. I'm

wondering if we should use as much

energy for you as we do. But go ahead.

Well, but the the whole point the whole

shooting match

>> of an economy and relationships and

satisfaction and purpose and some sort

of spiritual sense of calm and and like

your life mattered is that you do engage

in productive,

you know, productive economic or

domestic labor such that you can invest

that in other people

and you may or may not get a return. But

the point is the return you get is

you're so invested in something that you

you your life has meaning. The the whole

point is that you create value such that

you can you can you can invest that

value in relationships. And for most

people the most rewarding place of

investment where quite frankly they

don't get anything resembling an

economic ROI is in children. And to look

at it on that level is like, okay, you

don't understand

what it is to be a mammal or a human.

And and also the notion that you can

spend 50 years of your life

professionally working your ass off,

staying late, starting in the mail room

at the Washington Post as you did, such

that you have a voice, a reputation, a

twist of phrase, an ability to string

words together that compels people to

action or provides insight. And then

they can come in and just adopt that 50

years or piggyback on it.

>> That piggyback steal it really

>> is like I if I type in give me five

jokes on this or or give me a view on

the oil price and I put in my voice it

does a really good job because what it's

doing is stealing from everything I have

ever written, said or done.

>> That is correct.

>> And so the music industry did this

correctly. It said, "Okay, if we're

Kroq, which is awesome, the best radio

station

>> uh of the '9s in Los Angeles, and they

play a bunch of English Beat or Tom

Petty

>> or Lloyd Cole in the Commotions or Ramm,

they track how much they're playing and

then they send them a royalty."

>> Mhm. And what these guys want to do is

they want to leverage your years,

decades of of of discipline, schooling,

certification, risk-taking, time away

from your family, but they don't want to

pay for it. And they see everything. I

mean, that's I think a a a felony. But

what is double homicide from a mentality

standpoint is that these people really

look at relationships and humans on an

economic basis. I just when I saw that I

thought

>> Yeah. Yeah. He just had a kid.

>> This guy is not

>> he just had a kid.

>> Well, I'm I'm not going to I'm not going

to speak to his children, but what he's

going to find out and this is a what I

tell other dads

>> comment. It was a dark comment.

>> I'm like, don't make the mistake I made

and think that right away your kid's

going to be super into the [ __ ] you're

into and you're going to get all these

Hallmark moments despite what insurance

commercials would tell you. you're going

to have to invest more in this child in

every way.

>> And that's the point because at some

point what you realize is that that

overinvestment in other people gives you

purpose and value.

>> Well, I I I do think we're going to move

on from this, but let me just say they

think everything is for the taking and

for them. I just this is just another

example. This what was happening at the

defense department. Oh, we have an

uponthropic. Oh, anything they can take

they take. and they just continue to

prove, you know, they they keep not

meeting my low expectations for them

already. Um, and this is kind of an

interesting thing. Researchers from the

Center for Countering Digital Hate,

which has been attacked in all the and

it's its founder been attacked legally

by Elon Musk and the federal government

now in his at his behest, um, tested 10

major they they're keeping going though,

they don't care. tested 10 major AI

chatbots and found out eight out of 10

were willing to help plan a violent

attacks like school shootings, bombings,

or assassinations. Researchers posed as

a 13-year-old boys as 13 boys showing

how easily minors could get guidance on

weapons, locations, and strategies. Only

anthropics claude and Snapchat's my AI

consistently refused to assist in

planning attacks and only Claude

attempted to dissuade the users.

Deepseek wished the user happy and safe

shooting. And on that note, a lot of you

have been writing in about a story in

Canada earlier this year. An 18-year-old

gunman opened fire at a school in in

Tumblr Ridge, British Columbia, killing

eight people. Let's listen to a clip

from a listener. I am calling because it

seems to be that there is a connection

now between the shooter and chat GPT.

The shooter was flagged by Chat GBT

several months ago regarding some of uh

their behavior online. Chat GBT didn't

report it, which is one of the reasons

why I am leaving this message to see

what your thoughts are on that. Open A

is now being sued by the parent of the

child who was injured in the shooting.

I, as you know, I've been at this for

years, especially around kids, but it's

jumped into people. Um the most recent

uh one of the more recent shootings it

was was this suicide was an adult was

was changed by these chatbots. I cannot

let's stop calling them chatbots. What

an adorable word for synthetic beings.

Um which who don't who don't are not

bound by legal like if you're a lawyer

and you did this you'd go to jail. If

you're an anal if you're a you know a

psychologist and you did this you'd go

to jail. If you were a person and you

did this you would go to jail. like all

of the people go to jail. They're

willing to assist in violent attacks and

they're not doing anything to rein it

in. And it's not just kids, it's it's

everything. And again, the only one that

is doing the right thing is Claude. And

so, and this is anthrop. And this is the

company. I'm not doing an ad for Claude

here, but they have at least some. And I

think they should be regulated, too. But

I can't tell you how incandescent I am

about the way these people try to take

every p bit for themselves and they do

not care the damage they are creating.

And I I I am going to keep talking about

this until Congress steps in and does

something about it. You don't work for

those rich people. You do not work for

them. You and and I I'm with Dell Rico.

Enough with these people. So go ahead. I

just ranted. Well, I I think it's

important to draw a distinction between

potentially creating some sort of

psychosis that leads to self harm or

harm against others through overuse of

of AI or any other digital platform. I

think that's a separate study that needs

to be done

and without the interference of the

massive money and lies and and owned

bought research that these these firms

will do. I think this is different. I

think this is whether the federal

government needs to put in place laws

and incentives such that if a private

organization or corporation

receives information that this person

might be on the verge of committing an

act of violence, if they have a

responsibility to report it to the

authorities immediately,

and I think they do. I'm not a privacy

person. I'm not suggesting we go to

Minority Report where we arrest them

before they've committed the crime. But

at at my school or or

so uh my school in Florida where my kids

went at another school uh and we we all

shared information when I was involved

with the school about these very

difficult situations. A kid was drawing

very um disturbing images of gun

violence. And so the school felt like it

had an obligation to report it. And then

the FBI went to the house and the FBI

said, "Are there any guns in the house?"

Mhm.

>> And I think that was the right thing to

do.

>> You're right. That seems

>> If you notice, there was a video that

went viral on Snap. A teacher put out a

snap saying that she wanted to kill

these kids. And it immediately the cops

showed up and said, "Did you put did you

say this? Are you having any sort of

mental issue right now? You need to go

home and we need to understand what is

going on with you and if you have access

to guns before we let you back into a

school." Mhm.

>> And the same is true here that if you

are going to monetize this type of

information and you understand it so you

can interpret it so well

>> that you can create a prompt that keeps

them on another second, another minute

or serves them the exactly right auto

insurance ad. Then in exchange for that

economic benefit and what is clearly

demonstrated ability to know what's

going on with that person, if you see

any evidence that that person might be

capable of creating this type of crime,

you have an obligation,

you bartenders, the bar, if a bartender

continues to serve people alcohol,

observing that that person is really

drunk

>> and then that person gets in a bar and

kills someone. Mhm.

>> The bar is liable,

>> right?

>> So if they have such incredible

targeting, such unbelievable

information, they can clearly tell that

okay, this individual is getting maps

>> and and identification and information

is basically digital.

>> We should investigate is what you're

saying. This is

>> a school then immediately a message goes

out to the local authorities saying here

is exactly what this person said. We

have a judge involved. You get the order

and boom, they're in the house

asking this person questions. I'm not

saying they arrest them. They haven't

done anything yet.

>> Right. Right.

>> But

>> they would argue this is surveillance.

But of course, they don't mind selling

surveillance.

>> They're surveilling. They're surveilling

us to serve as the thing is, you know,

I'm just saying a human being in this

situation would be arrested or liable,

right?

>> These people are giving I agree you

should separate the two, but they're

related, Scott. It's the same mentality

of let us extract all the good stuff.

Let us not protect anybody and we are

not liable for what we're doing there.

You know, Mark Benoff once called them

cigarette companies. It's worse. It's

worse than a cigarette company. They

were just selling cigarettes and using

Joe Camel. That sucks. But this is

something demented. Like I think they

they they're demented. I I don't that

they think this is okay and that they

don't say to themselves, should we

really is this the way we want to make

our money? We want to make our money by

poisoning children's minds. We want to

make our money by letting people who are

mentally disabled become more so and

then giving that's a different issue.

>> I agree. But they're giving people plans

and if you're going to give people plans

on how to shoot a school, you have a

responsibility to say you might want to

check this out. I I get, but for the

purposes of of remedies,

>> I think you need to separate the two.

Character AI may in fact be leading

people into a state of psychosis where

they believe the right thing to do is to

find their stepfather's gun and kill

themselves cuz they're going to get to

hang out with Daenerys and the

afterlife. That is shifting their

psychological state.

My understanding of this the the shooter

here was that she was already in an

awful psychological state and was using

chat GPT as a tool to execute

>> violence.

>> Both require some sort of regulation,

responsibility, and action.

>> Different. You're right.

>> Yeah. You've done a lot of good work

interviewing parents around the rabbit

hole and psychosis that the character

AIs can lead people to, which by the way

has an average usage time of 75 minutes

versus AI at like 13 or 15. At the same

time, if these organizations

can very easily use the same technology

to not only alert them at the right

moment to serve them an ad for a dating

app or for a cryptocurrency trading

platform

>> to say, "This person is clearly going

through something and potentially a

threat to the community and others. They

have a responsibility to immediately

notify the authorities."

>> All right, we're going to finish up with

they don't have a community

responsibility. One of the things that

always struck me

>> when you say they don't have a

community.

>> They don't feel like they like

>> No, I'm saying they should. I think

we're in agreement here.

>> I think they never did is the point I

was going to make when I when they were

building their their headquarters. I

remember Twitter building its

headquarter and they had the most

beautiful cafeteria. I don't know if

you've ever been there, but it was

gorgeous.

>> I've never been invited to Twitter's

cafeteria.

>> This was pre Elon and I was thinking

>> pre-lon.

>> Pre-lon. Um I was thinking they don't

care about all the businesses around

like you know what I mean? like they

kept the people captive in this

beautiful everything is here, don't go

anywhere. And that they don't give a

[ __ ] about San Francisco. It's just like

they just want to be here. But they

didn't care about the surrounding

delies. They didn't care about people

going out in the street and creating a

street life. They didn't back the the

you know, they don't have to back the

opera, but they didn't back any civic

organizations ever. And I was always

like, "Huh, what a group of people. They

don't really care about anything but

themselves." Like I remember being

struck by that cafeteria and thinking

they really could give a [ __ ] And it

was the same it's the same idea. They

could give a [ __ ] about our government.

They could give a [ __ ] about all these

things except for what's in their

interests. And so I I could go I'm going

to I'm moving into I'm speaking of

psychosis. I'm moving

>> it comes down to one sort of basic

algorithm and that is all corporate. You

could argue the big tech is worse than

most. But generally speaking, it's safe

to assume that all corporations care

about is shareholder value and earnings

and getting to those earnings within the

confines of the law. What unfortunately

is different nowadays, I don't think

that's changed. I think General Motors

would still be pouring mercury into the

river if there wasn't

>> I would agree

>> wasn't an EPA. The the failure of the

glitch in the matrix is that we used to

have checks and balance in the form of

leadership.

>> Mhm. that prevented a tragedy of the

commons. But because of Citizens United

now,

>> the only thing that elected officials

care about is getting reelected. And the

only thing you need to get reelected is

more money than the next person.

>> And Silicon Valley has connected the

dots here.

>> Yeah.

>> And it said we can compromise inch by

inch their ability to regulate us and

prevent a tragedy of the commons by

throwing money at them.

>> Yep. And now billionaires, the 900

billionaires in the United States are

responsible for 19% of the pack giving.

>> Was that number? So I think you should

ask Taler Rico about this. I'm sorry.

You should let him talk about this

issue. I mean ultimately it's this is

not a good situation for all of us. And

they someone came up to me the other day

and who had been critical of my book

being too hard on Silicon Valley

burnbook and they said, "I have to

apologize. You weren't hard enough." And

I was like, "You're absolutely [ __ ]

right." All right, Scott. Let's go on a

quick break. When we come back, what

Barry Diller is saying about CNN.

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Scott, we're back with more news. Barry

Diller is speaking out about wanting to

buy CNN and what he would do with it. In

a new interview, Diller says it uh CNN

hasn't been managed optimally and had

enormous in and it's has enormous

potential to influence. He says he told

Warner Brothers CEO David Zazoff all

this. Let's listen.

>> I said to him, I don't think your

programming I I don't think it's being

optimally programmed. I don't think it's

competitive. Now, by the way, the facts

uh support that. Uh meaning that its

ratings have declined, its revenue has

declined.

Still is quite profitable. But how would

you alter it?

>> Oh, in every way.

Look, feel, and see. Every way.

And I mean, I hope I get the chance. I

don't think I will, but I hope I do.

>> Um, I'm not sure when this was, but I I

I texted him. Um, he said this not

happening. He said, "Not that now that

the Ellison's have it." Um, and they and

he quite correctly, and I happen to know

this, they're going to combine CNN and

CBS. Um, he doesn't think he has a

chance. I would love to work for Barry

D. He's much more conservative than I

am, but um I would certainly love he's

such a good programmer. He's such an

interest

journalism even if he gets mad at it

sometimes. He's someone I I appreciate

in that regard. Um and it would I wrote

him. I said, "Can you please?" And he's

there's no way. So I can I can knock

this one out of the water. He can't do

it unless Please, Ellison, sell it to

Barry Diller. Please, that would be

great. So, any thoughts?

>> I would love to see Barry Dillard

partnered with Jeff Zucker and a private

equity firm. And I think there's more a

greater likelihood than people believe

that the Ellison's might say this is too

big a headache.

>> We might just sell a combined CBS and

CNN to someone else because I think that

I'm not sure and maybe I'm being naive

here. I'm not sure they're as Mavian as

people think about trying to control the

world. Um, I don't know, but maybe they

have some grand vision for how they

integrated into Tik Tok, but I I can't

imagine Larry Ellison is as smart as he

is. Isn't going to say this is going to

be more a headache than it's worth.

>> No, they wanted the studios. I I I

agree. They're not quite as madilian.

They they they're just opportunistic, I

would say. I I you know, Ellison was was

democratic.

>> You're the third richest man in the

world by focusing on on economics. And I

think that

>> anyways, I think he makes a lot of

money. Diller is correct. It makes

>> the time margins. But I did some

analysis here because I just wanted to

show you like one talk about some

numbers of cable news. I spent a decent

amount of time last night uh on AI

looking at ratings and viewership and

essentially what I did was just to give

you a sense for the ecosystem and also I

never miss a chance to make pivot look

good.

>> It is good.

>> I looked at gross viewership. That is

the number or listenership. That's the

number of people who watch a program and

then see it on YouTube or on social or

download the audio and listen to it. And

actually listens are more valuable than

views because it's a more intimate

experience. And that's why

>> that's why you get higher CPMs on

podcast right now than you get on cable

TV. CPM is the cost per thousand viewers

an advertiser is willing to pay. So

let's look at gross viewership. the

number of times someone or the number of

people that watch the program, see it on

YouTube or somewhere else or listen to

the podcast version of it.

>> Fox News averages during prime time.

>> Fox

>> Fox Okay.

>> Fox News during prime time averages 2.1

million in gross viewership.

>> Mhm.

>> This is staggering. CNN 660,000.

>> Mhm.

>> Fox is kicking the [ __ ] out of CNN.

>> Yes. Pivot's gross viewership is

375,000.

>> CNBC is 252,000.

Now,

that's a bit of a a misnomer. It's

important, but what advertisers care

about, they don't care about kids. They

don't care about seniors. They care

about people aged 25 to 54 who are

buying kids, houses, and cars and in

their mating years.

>> This is a single pivot, not two together

of the week, right?

>> This is one show.

>> One show. single show.

>> We do two a week, but go ahead.

>> This is one show.

>> Mhm.

>> So, in the core demo, that's adults 25

to 54.

>> Mhm.

>> Okay. Well, let me let me let me let me

start here, which will explain that

number. Let's look at the median viewer

age.

>> Fox News, the median is 69,

>> CNN at 67, CNBC at 63.

>> Pivot, the median age is 42.

>> 42. So which leads you to believe as you

should that the number the percentage of

viewers in the core demographic for

these institutions or for the cable guys

and CNBC is somewhere between 20 and

30%. For pivot it's 70%. Meaning the

number of people listening or watching

these program listening to or watching

these programs in the core demo that

advertisers care about CNBC gets 63,000

people on average watching programming

who are in the core demo.

>> CNN gets 135,000.

Fox gets 197,000

and Pivot gets 233,000.

>> We beat them in the demo.

>> So we're getting more people in the core

demo. And then which leads to the

following. Our average CPM

>> Mhm.

>> according to Ray Chow, Ultimate Nice Guy

and New Father.

>> Mhm.

>> From Vox, we get a CPM of $45.

The word I've heard from CNN is they get

between$ 13 and $17. I don't know what

Fox gets.

>> Mhm.

>> So, just to give you a sense, Oh, and

let's talk about median household income

>> and cost of doing business, but go

ahead. Yeah. You want to reach wealthy

people. Wealthy people are now

responsible for 50% of consumer

spending. They have more discretionary

income, right?

>> Fox News, the average household, the

median household income is $60,000.

CNN 65, CNBC 85.

>> That's not

>> Pivot

150 because we get a very techheavy high

paid audience. So, it's pretty obvious

why cable news, Fox is actually doing

pretty well,

>> but cable news as a whole

>> is dying.

>> Yeah,

>> it's literally dying. So, Barry Diller

saying he wants a new look and a new

feel, what I would suggest is unless you

can pick it up at distressed pricing and

consolidate it with a bunch of other

stuff, I think Barry's falling into the

same trap that a lot of people fall

into, and that is nostalgia is not a

strategy. I don't think there's any I

don't think there's any coming back.

That's not to say

>> the these come

>> they're too expensive. I mean, you

didn't even figure in costs. Our costs

are basement compared to all their cost.

>> Oh, the gross margins.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, then then it gets it goes from

ugly to worse.

>> Yeah. What's interesting is there there

there's it's a it's still a great brand

and I agree with you about the

romanticism and he happens to be even

today at his he's much older is still

the best programmer around. He's been

>> No, he's he's a legend in the world of

media.

>> But not just that. I don't I've never

seen him think like oh I

>> Yeah, but so is John Malone and he

hasn't been able to figure it out.

>> I agree. I agree. But I'm just saying I

I I wouldn't like just say oh he's just

being romantic. I I've had discussions

with him. He's got some great ideas and

I agree it's a real problem. It's a I

would spin it off and see what Zucker

and Diller could do cuz I both of them

very good. They have a lot of ideas and

bring in people who have great ideas and

what would you do with it if if they

said here is this. This is what you have

Scott. What would you do with it? I know

you have just an anathema to television.

I know that. But um I it's an

interesting I think it's what he knows

best and it would be interesting. I

think he would be an interesting owner.

It's he says it's not happening. Um but

uh but it's nice that he's bringing it

up. I think Well, sorry. And by the way,

speaking of our demo, of our young demo,

42 means there's a lot of people on the

very young side. A lovely young man

named Evan, last night I was going into

this party for Hank Pollson was like, "I

love Pivot. Say hi to Scott." And I was

like, and and was like,

>> "That is a very young person. I get

stopped by very young people, very old

people. um middle most much in the

middle and very different people and I

really Evan I really appreciate all the

nice things you said about the show uh

because we we like all our different

fans but you're right the age thing is

important all kinds of stuff anyway

we'll see anyway Barry good luck um all

right we're not going to be buying it

and I won't go off on my craziness like

I did with the post um all right Scott

one more quick break we'll be back for

predictions

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>> Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction.

You you sort of mentioned it. What is

it? What is it? Oh, one thing. I predict

we're going to have a great time at

South by Southwest. All right. That's my

prediction.

>> That's what you're predicting always.

All right. So, my prediction is

essentially um I think the markets this

year are going to go down. Uh dangerous.

I think I think we're

>> I think we're on the precipice of like

a10 trillion dollar wipeout.

>> Whoa.

>> Um

>> really.

>> Oh yeah.

>> Tell all.

>> Well, not and by the way, I get this

wrong all the time. This is not

financial advice, but I don't think it's

from Iran. It's from what comes after

Iran.

Um and this is this is the chain

reaction here. Uh, I don't think oil is

going to I think oil is not going to be

at 150 bucks, but it's going to be it's

it's going to be

sustainably higher. It's going to be

elevated through the rest of the year.

And inflation in some markets reignites.

The Fed can't cut rates. They're trapped

um to inspire the economy because

they're worried about inflation. I think

corporate earnings are really impaired

as consumers stop spending

because some of them will be paying five

bucks a gallon for gas and their 401k

will start to decline and Q2 earning

season becomes bad and then what CEOs do

when things are sort of bad is they

throw in the kitchen sink and they'll

make it look like a blood bath just to

get all the bad [ __ ] out.

>> That's a good idea actually.

>> But the real contagion

>> uh here is going to be from emerging

markets. I think there's a decent chance

that Pakistan and Egypt default as well

as Sri Lanka and Bangladesh

>> dollar denominated debt very energy

dependent very fragile economies

>> because they all they all there's this

domino effect in those markets because

they can't afford oil imports and their

dollar denominated debt just becomes

unpayable

and then the real downward spiral starts

European banks holding that emerging

market debt start announcing write downs

um foreign banks, Deutsche Bank, BMP,

Pariba, all hugely exposed. Credit

spreads blow out and we get sort of a

not this to the same extent, but we get

an '08 style which bank is next moment

except this time it's happening while

the US is fighting a war we started for

no reason,

>> right?

>> Uh other than Scott, it's an excursion.

>> Well,

>> I'm teasing you. It's war. And well,

that's the mistake here is it should

have been a special it should have been

a military combat operation. Instead,

they've turned it into a war with no

objectives. But anyways,

by August, the narrative shifts shifts

from transitory war shock to holy [ __ ]

we may have broken the global financial

system. The S&P is off 20 to 40% from

its peak. Bitcoin goes to like 30,000.

Um, and you know, and quite frankly, the

only thing that probably goes up is

canned goods and ammunition

>> and Chevron. Um,

>> well, that's a scenario.

>> Happy South by Southwest.

>> But, but it's going to start, the

prediction is the following. It's going

to start, the contagion is going to

start in emerging markets that can't

afford

>> oil and uh, their debt is dollar

denominated. It's just a toxic cocktail.

It's a very accurate prediction, I have

to say.

>> So, and the problem is we've shot so

many bullets with our debt and printing

money that um the ECB and the Federal

Reserve doesn't have the same firepower

to try and lift us out of this.

>> Mhm.

>> So, in other words, it could be like a

an08 shock, but the problem is we we

have less ammunition for a bailout.

>> Yeah. Yep. With the tariffs, with the

debt, with everything. I mean, you know,

one of the things that uh did you hear

James Carville saying, "I don't have

enough Trump derangement syndrome. I

want more. I should, you know, I'm so

furious at this [ __ ] He was screaming

this what he has done here with this

Iran." And it all, as you have noted

many times, links back to Epstein again,

right? It links back to this guy.

>> He's the guy in every room

>> in every room. I think you're absolutely

right that this everything is motivated

by either people want to get before

while the getting's good or for

themselves or a an un unhealthy need to

hold on to power in a demented way like

I I remember when Elon said that one

time if Democrats it's an existential

crisis for the world if Democrats win.

Actually, as I always say,

every accusation is a confession. We're

in an existential crisis because of

these greedy [ __ ] and because of the

the need to hold on to power over

everything and it's going to it has

reverberations around the world.

>> There's some really interesting tax

proposals. Senator Booker proposed

basically a tax holiday for young people

which I which I love. Not that expensive

because young people don't make that

much money. Mhm.

>> We need to level up young people who are

24% less wealthy than they were 40 years

ago versus old people who are 72%

wealthier. And then

>> for the first time I saw a wealth tax

>> that could potentially

make sense. But instead of going after

billionaires

>> Mhm.

>> they should be going after anybody or

everybody that say has a well, you know,

more than call it $und00 million,

>> right?

>> You get no happiness. your kids will get

no incremental happiness from inheriting

that much money.

>> Billionaires were helping you lift your

wallets. Um,

>> and it should be it should be annual and

it should be small enough

>> such that people don't have to liquidate

assets

>> or move to Florida like

>> Yeah, it has to be federal.

>> Starbucks is just has to be federal.

You're absolutely right. That's great.

Okay. All right. We're going to talk

about that. That's going to be one of

our big topics at South by Southwest. We

Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send

us your questions about business tech or

whatever is on your mind. Go to

nymag.com/pivot

to submit a question for the show or

call 85551 pivot elsewhere in the Karen

Scott universe. I'm going to get serious

for a second. Monday I published a story

that I think I'm the most proud of of

anything I've done in a very long time.

I sat down with three Epstein survivors

who've been pushing for more

transparency with on on with career

survivor uh Liz Stein who's also a

survivor of childhood uh sexual abuse

said her desire to help her younger self

fuels her advocacy work. Let's listen to

a clip. It would be irresponsible of me

to have this position and to not use it

so that others did not feel alone in

this. Because if I could go back and

tell myself anything, it would be to

tell someone. And if they don't listen,

tell someone else. And just keep telling

until people listen to you. And even if

you feel like they don't, be proud of

yourself because you at least were able

to sit in your uncomfortable truth when

other people weren't. And that's really

what fuels me doing this advocacy, being

the person that I wish was there for me

when I needed them most. This was a

great show. They actually got to talk a

lot about it. Often you get these

shorter interviews. It was really very

moving. I dare I just listen to it. I

know everyone goes, "Oh, goodness."

>> Yeah. You can hear the emotion in her

voice.

>> Such dignity. such incredible strength,

such heroic behavior in in the face of

adversity. And uh you know, it was a lot

of I've gotten a lot of feedback that's

been I really appreciate, but it was all

these women. They were astonishing. It

has nothing to do with me, but I let

them talk and you should listen to what

they have to say as she said. Anyway,

that's the show. Uh thanks for listening

to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe

to our YouTube channel. We'll be back

next week.