just a tragic story and a tragic ending

it's hard to say if it's regrets but is

there anything different we could have

done

Nicola Kilner co-founder and CEO of

decim and the ordinary this is the

unthinkable inspirational and tragic

story of how she built a 2.2 Billion

Dollar Empire I always just had this

feeling that the only way to Achieve

Financial Freedom is entrepreneurship

and then I met Brandon

Brandon Truax founder of decim and the

ordinary one of the fastest growing skin

care companies in the world a success

story the minute it launched we couldn't

keep it in stock producing 400 000 units

every single day it valued at 2.2

billion US Dollars it truly happened

what felt like overnight and this is

really where Brandon's Behavior started

to change

gone from someone who there was just so

much warmth it's just this coldness in

his eyes I was suddenly pushed out of

everything and then I got fired Yusuf

emails were being sent firing people and

copying the whole company in everything

was played out on Instagram saying he

was shutting down the entire company the

shareholders had to step in but then

things just seemed to keep spiraling and

I don't know what to do to help him

we've got breaking news right now of the

founder of decim has died

foreign

what would you do if the person closest

to you

your best friend your partner the person

you've built your life with is seemingly

lost their sanity overnight and went

from working with you to Turning against

you this story is as profound as it is

heartbreaking it is as haunting as it is

heroic of all the stories we've shared

on this podcast this is the most

chilling it is the most hard to believe

and right at the end of this

conversation there is a Twist that I did

not see coming when you learn in the

most tragic way

that history is just repeating itself an

incredible business story an unthinkable

tragedy and a formidable entrepreneur

that stood tall when most would fall

and a genius lost to the world too soon

so pause take a deep breath because what

comes next is not ordinary it is

certainly extraordinary

foreign

[Music]

paint a picture for me

paint a picture for me of where you have

come from so I think quite a traditional

um you know because mum stayed at home

so she did do the cooking the cleaning

in just a very caring uh you know Jesus

with my my children today and it makes

me so happy because I know what kind of

mum she was and just knowing that that

love that they're going to have my dead

father was very

um great sense of humor always very

playful very inspiring very charismatic

always had kind of Big Ideas uh kind of

high energy and my mum was much more

reserved more of an introvert my dad was

kind of always there the people person

always kind of very busy socially and

Mum was very calm dad would have a

temper sometimes but you know nothing

too much

and at that age at that young age sort

of like around that 10 11 12 age what

were your aspirations and hopes for your

future if I'd asked you where did you

think you were going to end up

it's actually a combination of kind of

almost two what I don't think needs to

be extremes anymore but kind of I think

originally would have been seen as two

one was actually a stay-at-home mum

because I think I'd seen my mum

obviously just in that role and I've

always been very maternal I'd always

dreamed of having children except I

always wanted freedom I never wanted to

rely on anyone else and I think I'd

always kind of been interested in

entrepreneurship watch Dragon's Den from

you know quite a young age I always just

had this feeling that actually the only

way to really Achieve Financial Freedom

is probably through entrepreneurship in

in some way so I always kind of had this

dream of almost just doing something of

my 20s kind of making all the sacrifices

to build up enough Freedom that then

actually going on to have a family I

could make the choices to really spend

my time where I wanted to is that is

that why you went and studied management

studies yes well it was actually

interesting because I never knew if I

wanted to go to university or not

because

you know I believe in University very

much if you want to become a doctor you

want to become a lawyer you know there

are there are subjects that you really

need to learn business is one of those

where it's always hard like do you learn

that at University or do you learn that

in doing so I came across this course

um which was business management in

company which is quite a unique course

which was at Nottingham Trent University

so it's sponsored by different Blue Chip

companies so Rolls Royce boots Barclays

Tescos companies like that they take on

40 people into this course we would work

four and a half days a week for

whichever company are sponsoring us

and then the other half day was kind of

our study time although there was much

more than that and actually we were then

we'd go so I chose boots well we went

through interviews our boots was my

first choice and I was lucky to get

there boots for anyone that doesn't

under know the story if you're overseas

in America or something it's kind of

like CVS or something isn't it pretty

much that's the equivalent

um what's your so if we just pause it

and what's your opinion now on

University when your children get to

that age where they're about to make

that decision you've got two young

children when they get to 18 years old

and if they said Mommy I want to be

entrepreneur like you what advice would

you give them based on your experience

so I actually would always probably

recommend doing a few years in a

corporate because I have to say at boots

I learned so much

you know you learn the things that they

do really well you learn the things that

they do not necessarily wrong but just

the drawbacks of being such a big

organization so I think you know more

than going to University like those two

the two placement years I did at boots I

learned incredibly so much and depending

on the kind of person you want you know

if you go to a big corporate it's so

difficult to impact the culture there

because there's just so many people

there's so much history

and if you are someone who's kind of got

this strong drive to make a change

then you know entrepreneurship I think

is just an incredible area and even if

it's not your idea but going to join a

startup is just incredible energy and it

just would always be what I would

recommend at that point

if there was a key skill or a key set of

skills that you took from your time

working in a corporate app boot that

then

proved to be incredibly valuable as you

went on

what were those skills

so when I was it so so when I graduated

I then stayed on and I was an assistant

by to begin with and then I got promoted

to be um a buying manager for them which

was really around relationships it was

about collaboration it was about looking

around the world seeing new technologies

finding the Innovation new brands and

then really hand-holding those which

mainly were entrepreneurs to come into

boots to actually show them look this is

how we could launch uh you know we had a

stand it was called latest spines we

would launch a new innovation for a

period of three months as a trial to see

if it would work would boots consumers

like this if it did they would get a

listing with boots kind of long term

and that just really suited my skill set

because it was a very entrepreneurial

role because actually you know I I very

much guided them with PR agencies and

actually how to build the plan and

um you know we used to have the saying

of like launch and love because actually

it's one thing to get a listing of boots

it's another thing for your product to

actually be picked and taken off the

shelf like the listing is just the first

thing you know you you have to drive

consumers you have to have that entire

plan and I think it was just a really

good way of actually learning from

working with supply chain working with

Finance doing the checks with legal can

we do this what can we say it was a

really good sense of actually working

with so many different departments and

actually starting to understand I think

consumer goods learning demand learning

how to create it and so I feel like that

role was created

which really just suited my my skill set

incredibly well and I'm very fortunate

for that and then that's also how I met

Brandon so I actually had a huge impact

and obviously my my next stage too and

Brandon was a business you were maybe he

had a business you may be looking at

yeah so he was with his previous

business which was called indeed labs

and we launched a couple of their

products through this program latest

finds so I'd worked with him and I

remember

you know and actually when I this sounds

alien now so many years ago but you

couldn't check your emails when you left

the office so often every morning I'd

come in and I was dealing with a lot of

international entrepreneurs so I'd

always come into like an inbox full of

emails I always remember like looking

for his name because his email was

always so full of energy he always

signed off Smiles Brandon you know just

someone who's positivity his passion

just kind of really Shone through that

I'd always go straight to his emails

kind of open it and you know the

launches that we did with Brandon indeed

loves were some of the most successful

we did through the through the

Innovation program and and he was just

you know when he used to come to the

boots head office in Nottingham just it

was bouncing off the walls with kind of

this infectious energy and I remember

just from the day I met him thinking

gosh I always want this person in my

life because he just had this Aurora and

just someone who you knew wanted to

actually also make the world a better

place and kind of really cared about

doing good and and doing things

differently

and at some point you start having a

conversation with him privately about

launching a business your own business

and then he's launching his business

right yeah so so I remember he suddenly

left in dude Labs now indeed Labs he he

founded it it was a rocket ship it was

kind of doing super well I remember

getting this this message from him that

he left and just being like

shocked as in like what has happened

um

so then when he was next in London I met

up with him

and obviously he told me about his

reasons for leaving he was going to do

this next thing and I'd always kind of

had this this Viewpoint of wanting to do

my own business and ever since I worked

in Beauty I found that you know I always

had friends family everyone asking

what's the best mascara what's the best

foundation and just how we'd go to

TripAdvisor you know to look at kind of

ratings and reviews for restaurants and

hotels I wanted to create the same thing

for beauty that actually ranked the

products

so I told Brenda my dear and said I want

to do this and like what do you think do

you have any advice and he told me he

wanted to start something called decim

which was from the Latin word for the

number 10 and it wasn't designed to be a

beauty engine at that time

there was a beauty concept but there was

a technology concept there was a food

concept so kind of just lots of

different ideas generating but with this

Viewpoint of doing 10 things at once so

he said why don't you come and help do

deci in with me and I'll help do the the

beauty we went on to call it Beauty wise

with you

so then obviously I made the decision to

leave boots which um obviously I was at

the age of uh 24 23 24 and I remember

telling mum and everyone's like oh like

you're in a really good business you've

got a good like you're already achieving

things but I just knew that I wasn't

meant to be there forever so I yeah I

left 10 years ago and then it was the

start of decim

I've got to say this idea of doing 10

brands at once seems like it's counter

intuitive to all anything you might read

in a business book that speaks to the

importance of focus

um was there any sense in that in your

view so in in actually our office in in

Melbourne we used to have on the wall

focus is overrated because everyone does

tell you not to do 10 things at once

and actually there were so many benefits

to doing 10 things at once so first of

all it was this Viewpoint of trying to

create this ecosystem of you know how do

we have our own manufacturing do our own

comms in-house because

and again it takes funds to set up that

ecosystem but also you know so many

entrepreneurs which

I understand why they're in this

situation but so many entrepreneurs have

to Outsource everything they go to the

pr agency they go to a lab they go to

someone to do your r d and then you're

really just coordinating all of those

efforts rather than I mean so it was a

privilege we could build this this whole

ecosystem because then at the table

everyone sat there everyone's generating

ideas and again you know if I think

around like doing comms in-house it's a

lot for one brand to pay but if you've

got 10 brands suddenly you can look at

it as 10 of everyone's salary if I'm

flying to Australia to me to buy a wall

do I want to present one brand or do I

present ten Brands and also just this

you know area of you don't know what's

going to until if you're in consumer

brand

until it starts selling you don't really

know what's going to be you can do all

the research and all the insights and in

the world until something gets traction

you don't really know what's going to

work so also just set up this incredible

structure that we could fail we could

keep trying things if we could fail

relatively cheaply quickly and kind of

start the next thing what's the downside

though of doing 10 brands so I'd say the

downside in in the later years is

because the ordinary has become such a

huge success when the ordinary took off

the other brands got pushed aside

because it's very difficult if you have

one brand that's really driving such a

huge portion of your revenues when

everyone is you know facing high

workload that always gets prioritized so

then you end up ignoring the other

brands versus if they had a dedicated

team in is something now we want to

actually restart our incubator engine

and actually the only way we can do that

is by having a dedicated team to that so

there are downsides I think the other

thing that made a huge difference for us

because we didn't have much money as a

startup and we obviously wanted to hire

all of these people we couldn't afford

experience so everyone who was hired was

pretty much straight out of of

University straight out of college just

applied for their first job

and actually that meant no one really

had preconditioned ideas about the

beauty industry about the way things

should be everyone was approaching it

just with a almost a very practical

viewpoint

and I think that made a big difference

too with actually this how do we think

differently how do we do what others

aren't doing it was almost never

something that had to be discussed

because people hadn't worked for the

other conglomerates for all the years

soon after you become co-ceos with

Brandon yeah um I always think about

co-founder relationships and you know

people being yin and yang and what the

kind of right balance is for for

co-founders in your case you the way

that you came together was quite unique

it wasn't necessarily there wasn't an

initial interest in being co-founders

you were both going to do two separate

things you then kind of got drawn

towards each other

if I put your personality on this side

and Brandon's here what are the the

differences how are they complementary

but also uncomplementary

so Brandon was eccentric yes he was I'd

say we both were both very passionate

he was a lot more eccentric and I'm a

lot more calm I think would be a big

difference but I guess but also from the

skill set you know he was

um he was so into this like he was a

genius when it came to science and he

was a tech person originally so he came

from things with a very he didn't

understand gray it was black and white

and actually that was quite a good way

to actually approach the science I think

behind beauty products and he was at

times short-tempered

um I'd be the the kind of smoothing

things out and he would kind of be a

little bit more hot-headed but again I

think it was you know a startup culture

is not for everyone but for me those

first few years were incredible

but he also just had this amazing way of

making things fun uh you know like when

we would plan trips to go on meetings he

would be prioritizing which restaurants

we were going to where it's got the best

ice cream what are we gonna go and do

here and actually the work was something

that came alongside it he also had this

you know he had this philosophy he

wanted to build a family

he'd had you know a troubled upbringing

I think he'd always you know he'd he'd

actually had this pattern I think of

always leaving a business when it kind

of just went on the verge of success

um Jesse and was his fourth business he

had a tech business and he had two

Beauty businesses euroka then indeed

before before decim

and each time what hurt him was actually

leaving the relationships and the people

behind so his Viewpoint of decim was

actually how do we build a family like a

work family but I think he

he was never work and I think that's

what so many of us felt weekends

evenings like we wanted to be doing

deciing because we were all friends we

were all eating together we were going

to Niagara Falls on the weekend we were

going to a theme park in Toronto like we

were just having fun whilst we were

doing everything

the part you said about he wanted to

build a family because he had a sort of

troubled upbringing I'm trying to

understand now how his upbringing you

believe shaped his perspective on how

you assemble a company it sounds there

like he was building the family he might

not have had or there's clearly some

attachment challenges there if he wants

to sell the brands but not the people

yeah and and again the Heartbreak

associated with leaving these companies

was all about losing relationships a lot

of that speaks to something that must

have happened early

yeah so I think

it was around building a family of he

never wanted anyone to leave him and

he wanted decim to to be a place of

belonging and actually even now we have

belonging as our kind of Northstar like

the most important thing anyone in our

team should feel is that they belong at

decim whoever they are whatever they

believe in like there is a place for

them at decim and I think that really

comes from this like sense of family and

I think

and you know again like I even look at

my my husband's world I do think

startups because

you're working in a very intense

environment it does build relationships

far deeper than well I ever experienced

at boots and that I think would exist in

in corporates

so this sense of family I think you know

we would have taken a bullet for each

other and I think even now like within

within decimal you know we're 1500

people now but we still have so many of

those early team members

it is but actually a very happy one yeah

this morning I did a talk and I said

listen I'm going to say something here

which might get me in trouble I'm like

you've got to scale from a cult I was

like I always have to disclaimer and

explain culture really bad of course and

you know they manipulate people but this

is what I mean it's that that sense of

dedication We're All in This Together

inspirational founder Mission you all

believe in and you believe you're right

regardless of what the outside world

says you're on a mission you're sleeping

under the debt you know yeah well it's

they always say that you know you can

you can do like complain about your

parents but for anyone else there's a

bad word about yourself even if they're

saying the same thing you've said

industrian's like that you know like you

can complete like in terms of like maybe

there's not this process but anyone says

a bad word you come straight to the

defense but I think it was just so much

love and passion and again Brandon cares

for all of us like he had so much love

that you gave it back and that's where

it was so difficult you know when we

when we went through the the unthinkable

and things became so difficult because

it wasn't a colleague like you've just

lived this incredible journey of us all

traveling together building something so

special like just this such a sense of

We're All in This Together like even

when times are hard like we've got each

other's backs and things may not work

out but actually let's just have fun

let's learn things and let's just keep

trying like let's never be afraid to

fail and let's just do it together

people hear that and they see

the

outcome so everything you've described

there is the outcome you've got this

great culture people are dedicated

they're loyal they're on this Mission

what people will be thinking because

they'll be sat in their offices now

working somewhere or they'll be building

a company of their own in fact this

young lady came up to me this morning

and asked me this question when I was

um doing this talk she said I've got

this small team and I'm trying to create

exactly what you've described that kind

of real dedicated kind of cult-like

um company culture where everyone's in

it

how

how how does one create it it's so it's

actually quite difficult to explain how

it comes together because in many cases

from what I've observed it's not

necessarily intentional

I.E there wasn't it wasn't like a

strategic

um drawn-up plan to make people really

care it was quite a natural thing that

resulted in that sort of deep sense of

care from the team members

um I'll offer up one thing which you

said which I thought was spot on which

people often Overlook which is fun yeah

people think of you know people think

well we'll give perks and this but it's

all the things that happen outside of

the work that seem to do most of the

work in creating that cult

and you you come up with the best ideas

when you're doing something on the

weekend and you're not in that that kind

of Monday to Friday nine till five Zone

that's when that creativity I think

happens and I think you know people

spend so long in the workplace and

that's why it's so important that

actually people enjoy coming in the one

thing that I say like is it's definitely

been like a purposeful shift is I look

back at early startup culture and I

don't know if it's always kind there's

very high expectations and again if

you're working you know I'm I'm calm

Brandon is very high passion high

expectations you know there's this

people feel like they need to work on

the weekends and the evenings and is

that healthy even though actually

is trying to get that balance and I

think it'd be interesting you know and

again with my husband who's a different

stage of startup I always just find it

interesting around like I think

especially in today's world like we're

so much more aware about mental health

and burnout and actually how to be much

more respectful of balance

which I don't know if we necessarily had

back then but equally I feel like again

we're pretty much a bunch of young 20

year olds with Brandon you know being a

little bit older who are all just happy

and loved what we were doing and when

you start creating things and you start

to see the the results of your work then

that drives you even further and then

that makes it even more exciting because

you know you can see what you're

achieving is actually meaning something

do you think you could have achieved the

success with decim and the ordinary and

the other brands if you didn't have that

lack of balance and early cult-like

culture no and and again like you're

thinking only in the early days

everyone's around the same table you've

got predvey who's making formulations

Dion who's doing comms and brand like

everyone's just there talking coming up

with ideas and that's that collaboration

is so special and you know you're you're

in WhatsApp groups and you're like have

you seen this let's do this and also I

think you know the other thing in the

early days being agile is so important

and everyone was okay you could work on

something in the next day there'd be a

change of decision or someone had a

different review and you're like oh

actually let's go in that direction now

that gets harder I think as you get

bigger and actually there are many more

teams and there's more people involved

so that's interesting

um I have to say I agree

um with with um any business I've ever

been in I I look back at those first

what are 10 20 people in the way they

behaved and that's ultimately what we

scaled but it's that energy enthusiasm

that got us from like zero to one does

that therefore mean that there's a

certain type of person you should be

looking to hire at that early phase that

may be

can't afford to have more of an

unbalanced life

come on who's prepared to wear every

hat so in our early days we would say

yes to like we'd get an order from boots

if we didn't think we could fulfill it

we would say yes and we'd figure it out

afterwards and that would often mean

Brandon myself like all of the whoever

was working in the office at the time

we'd go and work in the factory we would

pull all-nighters making the products

and you know back then I can remember

with hand chemistry we had like a hand

crimping machine like we'd been but it

didn't seal that well and about 1 in 10

actually exploded if you squeeze too

hard so we'd be like there at night like

making them squeezing them like okay

they can pass

so you have to have people that are

prepared to get on production line to

pack the boxes and again like you know

my even later on like when it was you

know times around November Black Friday

which you know more recently we

boycotted and we well we have slovember

our campaign but those periods where

it's busy everyone gets into the

warehouses and they help ship the

products out so I think the ability to

wear whichever hat is needed for you at

that moment is the most important skill

set

what do you think of this concept of

work life balance

you know I had someone on the podcast

the other day and it's called Alex

samosie and he was saying that um he was

like people need to stop having a

conversation around work-life balance

because it kind of

assumes that there is such a thing as a

universal balance that we should all be

striking whereas as you described it you

were happy

and you okay your life you might have

been slightly one-dimensional but but

you were happy and surely that happiness

is the most important thing and Alex

hamosi says listen I do two things I

work and I play video games that's it

and I'm happy so stop telling me to do

work-life balance I'm happy yeah 100

agree and I think you know it comes down

to what's what's the right balance to

you and it changes at different periods

of your life so I was in my 20s I was

fine on my maybe sacrificed nights out

and kind of doing other things but I was

so happy being traveling all the time

being in this kind of Destiny and bubble

creating all of these this magic and to

me that's such a powerful concept around

how do we achieve balance in different

periods of your life we're all going to

have periods where we can be working

every hour and we love it and actually

it's our it's our work but also it's our

hobby it's our downtime because we just

love it so much then you'll have another

period of your life where you know maybe

you have a an elderly parent that needs

your support maybe you're going through

some challenges you've got young

children how do we step up and support

each other to say you know what I've got

you here you do this I'll cover those

bits for you because in another few

years maybe it switches around and again

that's something that I think is is so

unique to when we say a family culture

that to me is an example of kindness

that I think really actually

demonstrates it there has been a debate

it hasn't there about the use of the

word family in the corporate world

people think it means it kind of asserts

that there's a lack of boundaries and

these are not you know Netflix's whole

culture document which is like we're not

a family we're a high performance team

um and I think I have

struggled to figure out where I sit on

it because there are many elements of

the family culture that I always want in

my businesses that sort of care that

going above and beyond the way you know

a deeper sense of relationship that's

non-transactional

and then also

on the other hand you don't fire your

family

you know so what what is that balance

between family and high performance team

for me family is about belonging and

everyone just really feeling like they

have a safe place to be and that they

are loved I think kindness sometimes is

mistaken for weakness and and also I

think there's there's a conflict between

the words being kind and being nice

being nice

is is kind but can be superficial you

know you see a stranger on the street

you're like hi how you know you open the

door it's nice but do you truly mean

like how are you are you just kind of

passing it

if someone's not performing at work it's

not necessarily a nice thing to have

that conversation with them

but it is the kind thing because if your

intention is to help them and the help

may be this is maybe a different role

that we see in the company which we

think you're more suited for it may be

that we think you need this coaching

this training to get to where you need

to be and it may be that look you're in

this role but we're not seeing the

delivery here we actually think the

better option for you is is outside and

now when we've done terminations you

know we've done things around like how

do we do counseling where actually it

helps someone to look for another career

depending on kind of what role it is and

the reasons why we're leaving because to

me then that's a kind of way we're

actually trying to help that person and

the other thing you know

our business we we were like

kind of this and we like had a rocket

ship kind of boomed and then then we

came to a dip just after after kind of

Cove it it hit me when I realized if my

numbers don't pick up again we're going

to have to let people go because

actually

that is the consequence of business like

you're you're there to kind of

do many things but ultimately like one

factor of that is is to be a business

and to make money and if you start to

not hit your numbers ultimately like you

can't lose money for long people will

start to say you have to save money

where does that come from head count and

I think that then hit me again that okay

we have to perform so to be kind to

everyone we have to be a performing team

so again I think you can be high

performing

but by being kind I think you can make

everyone feel safe and trusted that

again if you have to make the hard

decision you're going to do it in the

way

to be as kind as possible and actually

you know have the action to try and help

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thank you thank you so much back to the

episode I heard you say something which

was that you um

you're the least qualified CEO ever yep

you don't sound like the least qualified

CEO ever

I guess you've been through some so

I definitely am again you know you have

to

I was there from the beginning

and being someone who can you know play

a leader for an organization of 10

people 20 people 100 people is a very

different skill set

do you know we are 1500 people we now

have a majority ownership from sa Lord

of companies who are a public company

our whole world has changed

and rightly so because being a much

bigger organization we have to be far

more organized and planning and I

wouldn't say those are necessarily my

skill sets and again when you know the

the kind of dip I mentioned was a very

difficult period because we'd we'd just

been on this rocket ship of you know

even when things were difficult the one

thing that always we were always ahead

of budget targets whatever anyone set

for us we always were just over

achieving which feels incredible when

you're in business like if you hit

numbers and everything else just falls

into place

and I remember like you lose confidence

and I remember actually saying to to

Stefan who um is we reporting to it ELC

he was like an incredible person but

each time when I used to say oh like you

know this is it's not going right and I

said like I'll resign like I'm not the

person

but dad's like I need help like I was

like I can't do this like I'm I'm not

the CEO who

understands numbers in the right way who

plans like I changed my mind and again

like you think about all the things as

as a as a startup you can do things

quickly you can change if you change

your mind on a decision when you now

have many more people working on it you

demotivate people you become chaos is

fun in a startup in a large organization

chaos can become demotivating

so then I was very fortunate that we did

bring in

um a very incredible general manager who

joined us about a year ago and he has

had such a transformation on the company

because

he can't believe just the basics we

didn't have in place and because we'd

grown so quickly and it's now to get

that balance between you know there's

there's areas we don't want any

experience but decims when it comes to

like brand and Innovation our values

things that we are so passionate about

when it comes to supply chain and

scaling in New Markets we need

experience

so actually having the GM come in that

actually could kind of take control of

those and then actually allow me to

focus on the areas which I'm much more

passionate about which is the the brand

area our people culture belonging social

impact it's just made a huge difference

to the business so two things that you

offering up your uh essentially

resignation from your your role when

things were a little bit tricky

it's giving me imposter syndrome

realistic

have you ever had imposter syndrome

because you know saying this quote here

about being the least qualified CEO ever

what is it from a traditional

perspective for example if I went now to

you know another company with revenues

nearing a billion dollars a year with

1500 employees I wouldn't be a good CEO

I think I could be a good people person

I think it could help on values on brand

now obviously there's an argument of

like a modern CEO and I think especially

for there's no one more qualified for

decim than me because of the history but

when I think about just the pure metrics

and the size of the business

it needed someone with some more

experience and again I'm a big believer

on

you know and anyone who thinks they're

the expert at everything they're not and

I think I'm a good person at

relationships and hope you're bringing

people on for the journey hopefully

people feeling how appreciative and

truly grateful I I am that they choose

to kind of be at decimal and give their

role every day

but there are many areas that I'm not

good at all and actually having trusted

people to support that is amazing and I

always do think myself more you know

it's kind of like the conductor of an

orchestra like being aware except I'm

not very organized so the bigger you get

then suddenly you do need someone that

maybe has got more technical skills it's

interesting because when I asked that

question about the Imposter syndrome

thing I immediately reflected upon it

and I thought

it's funny how imposter syndrome and

self-awareness can sound very very

similar

and and that's in fact from speaking to

some of your team one of the things they

repeatedly said to us was about your

self-awareness and I even reflect going

back early to your time at Boots where

you were considering contemplating

becoming a buyer and the first thing

you're doing there is saying does that

suit my skill set and what makes me

happy I mean your team said it they said

your quote is that she isn't afraid to

to tell you and she instinctively knows

what her strengths and weaknesses are

but I think it's the only way to be

authentic that you know trying to be

something that that you're not or

something that doesn't make you happy is

not really good for anyone and I

actually think like authenticity in

today's world I think is a value that is

is one of the most important because

otherwise you you get called out it'd be

crazy for me to say that I'm good at the

finance piece I'm not it's not a

strength but we have an incredible VP of

Finance we've got incredible general

manager that truly understands it so I

think actually just playing to your

strengths and allowing others to play to

their strengths is actually what brings

the authenticity I should probably read

this your team said she delegates a lot

and very well she very instinctively

knows her strengths and her weaknesses

she isn't afraid to bring on knowledge

and talent for those weaknesses

her team says she's incredibly

self-aware and also she is literally a

ray of sunshine how much did you pay

Jenny in marketing 2017.

um you launch the ordinary in 2016. yeah

at the end of 2016. at the end of 2016

and then 2017 is the ordinary's breakout

year

breakout year how do you quantify that

give us an idea

the minute it launched we couldn't keep

it in stock

it was and again from

we'd come up to the ordinary was the

11th brand that we came up with a

concept for wait that that violates the

name

but we don't Focus so we can change our

mind wow so we kept going and what's the

Latin word for 11. I don't know maybe

maybe a company name change

with the ordinary I don't think we ever

thought it would we never dreamed it

would become what is what it's become

today

we launched the ordering our frustration

that there wasn't enough transparency in

the world of skin care

and you know we took inspiration from

the world of Pharmacy if you have a

headache you can go into a pharmacy you

buy paracetamol

you're going to be paying you know 50p

to three pounds it's a very small window

no one can sell you paracetamol for a

hundred pounds because you know the

ingredient you know the milligram the

trust is there because the transparency

has been in that industry

that didn't exist in the world of skin

care which meant that if you walked into

a beauty Hall to pick a skincare product

you may see actually a relatively

similar formula being sold for 10 pounds

being sold for 100 pounds and actually

not really understanding what's the

difference you know is it the marketing

you're paying for we kind of have this

assumption does like paying more mean

more but if you go into boots and you

see a new hundred pound painkiller are

you going to trust it are you just going

to take the ingredient that's safe and

effective and trusted

and I think the reason we're feeling

frustrated was because for neod

we were really using brand new

technologies that were very expensive

and no one else was using these it was

kind of true innovation

so we said well actually let's let's

take this approach of people because

again the some of the ingredients we use

in the ordinary they may have been

around for decades that's not a bad

thing if something's been around for a

long time there's so much research done

there's so much safety and again just

like paracetamol aspirin we don't always

need new if you've actually found a

solution that has incredible effects

we presented the concept of the ordinary

to two significant retailers to have our

you know big Partners now who both said

no to launching the brand

and this was when we were kind of still

at concept stage before we'd even um

create like produce the first product

they said it was too confusing white

boxes will collect dust you know you

need to just rename the products to be

anti-aging serum region serum

actually just what everyone else looked

like in the industry

and because we had these this umbrella

and we had different brands it gave us

the confidence to say no because you

know we we were doing okay for ourselves

like we could cover everyone's payroll

we we kind of had traction with some of

the other brands so we said no let's

let's follow our gut which again it's a

privilege to be able to say that because

I know for so many entrepreneurs cash

flow is is a killer and it can be so

difficult to say no to a listing that

you know could be worth significant

money but we said actually no we really

believe that actually this transparency

is what's missing in the beauty industry

so you know we

the ordinary launched and it just

honestly was a rocket ship that even

today

we in throughout our VPS supply chain

has you know we're producing 400 000

units every single day at the moment in

our Manufacturing in Toronto

we still have retailers if you go into

boots you'll still see lots of outer

stocks on the on the Shelf like we still

struggle to keep up with demand six

years later since we launched the brand

and that has been it's just been an

incredible story but I mean we look back

at 2017. we knew we needed kind of more

money to scale so we started looking for

investment which is how many months

after launch

um oh the ordering was like three months

old

Desi M was four years old

um and again we we were doing okay like

we had some success stories not anywhere

near the scale of kind of where the

ordinary went to

we met with different private Equity

firms there was like another huge um

conglomerate who we had lots of meetings

with

and we ended up meeting with um Estee

Lauder Companies in April

and it was eight weeks from our very

first meeting to the deal being signed

which was due diligence negotiations

everything it was especially for a

corporate with a board a public company

it was it was just this huge energy from

the moment we

came to Toronto the the kind of M A Team

then they were like we we need you to

come to New York we want you to meet

Leonard or we want to meet you meet you

for Brits here last year we want you to

kind of meet this team

and I remember seeing Fabrizio the CEO

who have a huge amount of respect in

admiration form

and the deal was done within like 30

minutes of meeting because they just saw

this I think that energy particularly

from Brandon like Brandon and I were in

the room like just this creativity this

passion and the ordering was just

starting to kind of create this kind of

rumbles and I think they you know

ultimately they believed in the concept

they believed in what we wanted to do so

they uh the deal signed in June they

became a minority investor they they

took 29 of the company

and I actually you know with Jesse and

today we have had more time with ELC

than without ELC ELC the Estee Lauder

Companies okay

when Acquisitions happen I think

companies go from zero to a hundred

percent you know we're at 70 they they

own 76 now with decim and it will go to

100 and next summer

and actually that process will have been

seven years which actually is one I

think quite a forward I haven't seen

many deals like that done I think

between kind of a startup and and you

know a larger company but actually it's

just been this amazing

different chapters of us both getting to

know each other learning each other's

strengths I think having a lot of

respect for you know where where we need

help and where we kind of need to be

left alone and so actually it's just

been this really nice journey and you

know decim we're in our 10th year this

year I'm in six years of those we've had

the partnership of Estee Lauder

Companies 29 they took and I it's

rumored the valuation was about 1.5

billion

uh in so in the the last

in the 2021 investment uh okay right

yeah it was I think valued at 2.2

billion US Dollars and at that early

stage I'm trying to figure out for your

four years into decim Estee Lauder put

some money in what was the valuation at

that point when they took the 29 it

would have been about 160 million okay

Jesus okay

okay super interesting

I mean it's a it's a very quick

um trajectory relative to most companies

in that space to achieve those

valuations in such a space of time we

move on then from 2017 to 2018

um

and this is really where Brandon's

Behavior started to change

it truly happened what felt like

overnight so at the the end of 2017

so so we we close the investment in the

summer and again the ordinary at the end

of 2017 is it's a year old it's having

this incredible

just people are warming to it people are

loving the concept you know I always

think the audience is like a community

brand because it really was

spread through Word of Mouth

endorsements

and I remember my husband and I we went

to New Zealand and Australia for for

kind of the the Christmas break

and then I remember getting this call

from from Brandon saying

you know you need to go straight to the

airport with what it like he was like

have you got your passport I said yes he

said you go straight to the airport now

book a first-class flight come straight

to Toronto on the next fly turn your

phone off turn your emails he was just

like calm down let's let's be relaxed

but you need to come immediately

so he didn't tell you why no but I could

just sense it was an entirely different

person I was speaking to all of a sudden

over that over that break in the

holidays I mean the flight from

Australia to Toronto I think I was on

the plane now traveling for about 20

hours I cried the entire way because I

knew something really bad was happening

and I guess to just kind of towards the

end of 2017 and again I have to say

Brandon is someone who

he he would have like one drink in the

month like he barely drank

as far as I'm only we spent so much time

together like we didn't do drugs was

just uh he was high on energy and happy

he's just drinking diet coke and eating

fries with ketchup type person

towards the end of 2017 he'd become

intrigued I think by magic mushrooms and

just kind of

this idea of you know can you access

different parts of your brain and again

this was just something like in

Amsterdam where it's legal and it's kind

of just this

almost just this inquisitive actually

how does how does the Mind work

and I knew he'd planned to go to

Amsterdam over a new year to kind of

experiment with some of his learnings on

kind of mushrooms and in different

dosages

and and I'm someone who's quite

anti-drugs like I've always been kind of

I like to be well behaved I don't like

to kind of break and break any rules

um in in those senses

and I just had this awful feeling and

I came back to Toronto and he summoned

you know if around 10 of us to have this

meeting in The Distillery straw which

was one of our audacium stores in

Toronto's that we we closed for the day

and everything had changed

and

it was just like talking to a stranger

he had this like coldness in his eyes

and he'd gone from someone who you know

the second you see him there'd be hugs

there was just so much warmth you know

all of his emails would have hearts on

it was just kind of all of this love in

in messages and kind of just being

it's just this almost kind of zoned out

cold person

that suddenly almost felt like

kind of just had this like

it's like he didn't

understand there was no understanding

anymore between him and any of us

he spoke around things where

you know we've we were too caught up now

in the concept of time so for example he

said to me like that the next day when

you know with me for coffee and you know

our routine for the previous four years

has been

he texted me he's like I'll pick you up

at 7am

would you go to a coffee shop we'd get

you know breakfast and head to the

office and he suddenly was like there's

no time anymore I'm gonna meet you in

the coffee shop tomorrow but we don't

need to tell each other a time we'll

just be there when we're supposed to be

there

and I remember finding it really hard

because he truly was is such a genius

and a visionary

and this has happened so quickly and I

remember like ringing ringing Sean and

saying like does he does he have a point

like are we too caught up in time like

is this just like are we taking things

the wrong way

so I had a lot of confusion just around

like how can something change so quickly

and again this is someone who you know

over the four or five years of being

like insanely close to him you know we I

was in going to Toronto at this point

for like three weeks out of the month

and we'd have every dinner together

breakfast together lunch together every

weekend together

and never seeing any episodes of of

mental health or anything changing so

suddenly have this drastic change

of someone you loved but someone

suddenly who feels like he's completely

closing the door to you and kind of

pushing you out this wasn't a different

person who was angry shouting crying

scary it was suddenly very cold to

everyone

and then

so where everyone's very confused very

upset

and then there's business things that

start to happen

that make no sense that are actually

quite mean you know canceling a brand on

Instagram a big partnership we had done

with someone

canceling a retailer so he went on

Instagram and told them said to your

following on Instagram that this Brand's

no longer going to exist so before

telling them yeah so we'd spend all of

this time with Dr esho uh building this

brand I need Doctor yeah and then it

canceled like tijon found out on

Instagram with everyone else that this

brand that he'd put all this passion and

energy in was ended retailers were ended

it became it was just horrible so I did

challenge him and what happened when I

challenged him was I got a meanest

meanest response around how I just don't

understand him of all the people I I

should understand

and just yeah and be like you look back

and like nothing was making any sense

and then I got fired because again and

he wasn't technically allowed to like

you know you need board approval and all

of these things but there was there was

no Russian rational actions at this time

so this this just accelerated so quickly

and then it's so difficult because then

anyone who's trying to help gets pushed

out

then everyone's and again like in the

background I can because it's all of

these early team members like everyone

wants to help him and protect him and I

was like what do we do and you know

that's the hardest thing about

you know mental health and drug abuse

which then like Circle together

But ultimately when it's affecting

someone's brain

they can't necessarily recognize that

themselves and someone said to me

it's like you're speaking polish to them

you may think you're speaking English a

Common Language there is no

understanding in that conversation of

what each other is saying

and actually that that did start to make

sense

but it was just very difficult and I

think you know again I got fired in

February so like a month into this

and it's been the worst month of my life

like truly like horrendous like so

emotionally difficult what happened in

that break do you know have you got any

suspicions

yeah I think he's well yeah he was very

curious and I think he he took

everything to an extreme and I think

he'd been reading a lot around

psychedelics and kind of how to access

different parts of your brain and I

think he experimented a lot during that

break and do you think that triggered

some kind of psychotic

episode yeah so on that point about

being fired yeah how were you fired

I knew it was coming wow why

because he'd I'd gone from being we were

inseparable so I was suddenly pushed out

of everything excluded from conversation

conversations emails he came to London

he was in London at the time when I when

I got fired and again when he'd landed

in London from the minute he landed to

the minute he left we would be together

and I I didn't I barely saw him how did

that feel

so hurtful because hurtful and confusing

and just really hard and

and I guess you have like a whole team

who are like what's happening everyone

is scared because it's a very strong

personality who now could take anything

anyone in the team said the wrong way

and kind of someone could be at the end

of quite

you know an explosion of anger which

again was never there before

so it's just a very difficult situation

of one where you just you don't even

understand it which I think is what

makes it so hard

but I'd also I think at that point we

didn't maybe know the extent of how

how things were going to spiral from

there or how mentally and well he was

because I mean

six weeks earlier he'd been he'd been

the Brandon like we all knew and loved

so it was such a quick turnaround and

change

and I remember getting a call from from

the the person who ran our HR at the

time

and I remembered saying like I know like

he wants to fire me

and obviously she said yeah and then um

and I remember just like crying my eyes

out actually at the time

the um

yes I'm from Estee Lauder Companies who

was on the M A Team

who's based in New York

um

he was in London at the time

and it went to meet him

I know I'm just saying like I'm scared

because I don't know what's happening

and this is something it's just

entirely changed

and I don't know what to do to help him

and I remember then you know the

confusion of

someone's now acting

it doesn't matter what Agreements are in

place this is now someone acting

irrationally

but we've got to act in a certain way

because it's someone who is

so unpredictable in the way

and again I think at this point I hadn't

really realize how bad things were going

to be and you know probably things like

maybe it is me like maybe I'm not the

right person to be there anymore and

maybe for whatever reason like he thinks

I don't believe in the vision or

things have just changed

my husband who's like the most

supportive person in the world but also

very calm takes such a like relaxed

approach to anything like nothing is a

problem to him in his world in a very

positive way

he like booked as a holiday he was like

let's just get away like

you know it's been like a very hard

month right now Brendan like doesn't

want you we can't change that so let's

just focus on just like taking a moment

just to kind of

reflect

um and obviously I'd always wanted

children we'd be married for a few years

at this time I'd never wanted them last

I wasn't like the busyness of decim

because I wanted the time to enjoy being

you know a mum of young children so

we're like less

let's try and have a baby

so I got pregnant in the March and

and a month later yeah and um

but then at that point things were

spiraling with Brandon and you know

abusive emails were being sent

uh targeting everyone he was firing

because so many people within the

business

firing people and copying the whole

company in copying retailers in pressing

and it became clear like things were

really unwell

um and I remember

I think being about six weeks pregnant

I was being targeted on like some of

these emails now I'm thinking

let me announced it on Instagram

something like that happens

you know someone's not rational like

no good human being does that to someone

and then it became really hard because

I was still in this situation of loving

him so much wanting to help him feeling

just not knowing what to do

also having like the company like having

everyone started coming to me asking me

like what should we do because you've

got someone

saying things that make no sense and

being you know he was just very very

unwell so I was still trying to help

people in the background keep things

going with the business

let's see you know trying to be in the

early stages of pregnancy which now see

the whole world knew and

and it was just really really hot

and I remember when

he first got sectioned feeling such a

sense of relief

that he was finally gonna get the

treatment he needed to get better

and it was actually in in London when he

got sectioned for the first time and

then he he was out five days later

and then that was the start of you know

over that 2018. he got section five

times across London across

Canada Across America and each time

would just get released a short period

after

and then that's when I started to

to almost kind of you you lose the hope

of like how can how can we help this

person when

he keeps

getting into these terrible like you

know to get sectioned you're in a

terrible situation for authorities to

actually come in and remove you for your

own safety

but then this would just happen again

and it's it's almost like there wasn't

even a connection between like the

countries and the medical systems and

and kind of like how that all works it's

confusing but he

he has in the in the June you know he

was sending me videos crying and just

saying like I need you back I don't know

what I've done like I'm so sorry and I

remember feeling like

I could I can't help if I'm not there

maybe if I'm with him maybe I can help

him

so I went back

and the first week I went back we went

to Morocco because it was like you know

we need to plan like we need to get the

business thing sorted again and and

actually

it felt like a normalish conversation

so I remember feeling like you know

maybe

maybe things can get better and I

remember the week in Morocco just things

were worse than ever things had got even

worse at that time I'd been away

and it's just

it's a helpless situation and

I have so much empathy for anyone who

or want the people who struggle with

with mental health and addiction but

also for the people surrounding them

because it's a very toxic environment to

be in one because you're you're you're

being abused

but secondly

you're losing the love person and

thirdly you just

feel like you can't help because again

with so many other health issues

when you're not battling with the brain

there's more acceptance of treatment to

get better but that just doesn't exist

in in the same way

I can tell how much you loved him unless

he was like and this is what I find so

hard he really was so kind

and like would do anything and again

like you know when I talk about Desi and

being a family in his estate in his will

every single beneficiary is a decim

employee like that's that's this family

bond that was just so strong so just to

see that go and again like everything

was played out on Instagram Brandon was

doing all of these posts in terrible

situations

and

it's a very hard line I mean we'd we

talked to Instagram like this it's such

a free it's such a difficult you have

free speech you have someone like it's

it's a platform like people can can post

what they want you know some things

would get removed others wouldn't

but it was just an awful situation to be

in

and I think everyone just had such a

huge desire to help him and like in this

time period I mean even like essay Lord

companies were behind the scenes they

were so supportive to us but again you

have you know you go on Instagram you

see all these comments why is no one

helping him what are you all doing

and again it's it's so hard because

people

don't see that situation of it is pretty

much impossible to help

and then you have people that say look

someone has to reach Rock Bottom like

they have to just reach Rock Bottom

until they get better

so then in in October

Brendan had done an Instagram post

basically saying he was shutting down

the entire company and there would be no

more decim

and obviously that was the point when

the the shareholders had to step in

because suddenly you know there's I

think at that point we had 800 employees

like there was everyone's jobs on the

line and and again you think look maybe

maybe this is the the kind of bottom

point he needs to reach to actually

understand he needs to get help

so that's when the court order happened

to remove Brendan from the company which

again is

an incredibly hard situation because no

one wants to remove the founder who they

care so much about and you know a

Founder who is such a Visionary and is

the brand like do you feel like he is

being forcibly removed from his own

company is very difficult but you've

also got a situation where everything

was Publix that every email sent had the

whole company on CC had all the

journalists had all of our retailers had

customers on

Instagram posts were obviously going to

everyone so you're also living this out

in public

which I think also makes it a lot harder

so in October he got removed as the CEO

reflecting on what you said to me at

this earlier in the conversation about

him wanting to keep the family together

and be part of the family based on his

own early experiences maybe his own um

Family upbringing that must have been

particularly painful for him seems like

he'd designed designed this company to

be a family and that's clearly one of

the most important things for him so for

him to be ousted from his quote unquote

family must have been tremendously

painful

did you ever learn about his early years

did you ever learn about his his own

background his family yeah I actually

interesting because

for how close I was to him

when he became unwell I actually learned

how much I didn't know about him

and I think

you know he just

I think he had a lot of challenges of

never feeling accepted for who he was

which makes me so sad because

me as a person

and especially like the destiny that we

have now like we truly accept anyone and

love anyone it doesn't matter like who

you choose to love where you're from

like you belong to us and like we are

grateful if you want to be part of

family you are you are the family

so I find it hard that he never felt

that except he never felt like he could

be his true self

which I think I only learned more when

he became unwell

how

um

like he'd had Riad he'd had this

incredible life partner for 10 years

that I didn't even know about

a romantic partner yeah

husband

a boyfriend pretty much yeah and again

like those things when I mean that's a

big thing to hide from someone why was

he hiding it

well I can only think that was him

feeling like he wouldn't be accepted for

it and I mean because it's a man yeah

and I mean well in the world today but I

mean especially the beauty like it's

I'm so proud of the the you know the the

diverse team we have like he would have

been so accepted but I mean he was from

Iran I think he maybe just had

well I don't know I can't say the

reasons yeah and but he clearly never

felt like he could share with the world

who he truly wasn't I mean that's that's

a huge

thing to carry what about his parents so

his mother died when he was very young

and I think he had a challenge

relationship with his father but again I

only learned a lot when he became ill

and I also have a battle with

if he didn't want to tell me

he didn't want people to know so there's

kind of a balance of

you know I have so many things that gosh

I wish I could ask him

what are those things

about his childhood about who he is

about why he felt the need to keep

things secret

and then also just to understand because

you know people say to me like like did

he have any signs of mental health

challenges before

and and again it depends what you

consider traits of mental health but no

I mean he was eccentric and he was you

know high intensity in many things that

I think are are traits often our

Founders I mean I would love to

understand more

like how do we support people with

mental health because again I mean for

someone to be sectioned five times why

was he sectioned

he would just be in very bad situations

please come and get involved and then

drugs drugs and again it's so hard to

diagnose

um because yeah they both kind of

spiraled spiraled each other quite

dramatically he was doing meth in the UK

I read as well but and then he got

arrested from yeah and and again my my

limited understanding of drugs but I

think crystal meth is about as as bad as

it gets I think in in many ways

and so then in October he got removed

and again I remember feeling like maybe

maybe this will show him like be the

push he needs to to get help

but it wasn't things just kept spiraling

and again what's so difficult in these

situations is at this point I think he's

pushed pretty much everyone away who

really loved him and he's now because

you have to remember he also had funds

he had you know resources

which meant you know at this point he'd

was now flying private jets everywhere

and he was kind of surrounded by people

that I had never met before and who I

don't think were particularly good

people for him to have around but I mean

you don't have control over another

human being and I think that's a thing

that I really struggled with was how

much everyone wanted to help him and

loved him

but at some point you know so by October

I mean we've had 10 months of

so much hurt

so much trying to help him so much you

know you have moments when you think

you're getting through and maybe like

this is gonna like be a change and then

things just fall down again

so he

then when you've got sort of 700

employees takes to Instagram and

announces that he's shutting down the

company

and did he mean that yeah I think he did

again I don't know if he meant it or if

he was

just wanting to be removed and almost

you know if that was the reason he was

kind of doing some of these behaviors

there had been things had been very

extreme

and I sometimes don't know if he would

have thought like you know what else do

I need to do for someone to just take me

out of this

so then obviously at that point you know

the the board the shelves there's no

choice but to now remove Brandon from

from the company did they contact you

after that so yeah they they privately I

mean before the the lawsuit and all that

stuff started they'd said listen Nicola

we're gonna have to do something here

yeah and I mean throughout this process

there are many conversations because

again you know every shareholder loved

Brandon and cared for him and like

everyone's a good person and it's like

everyone wants to help someone that

they've seen this Brilliance in and kind

of seeing this quick quick downfall and

I think the Viewpoint was always how do

we protect decim so that branding can

get better and come back so it was

always just a temporary order

um and obviously they rang me because it

would name me as becoming Soul CEO and

kind of the interim period

and again you know I had these thoughts

that maybe maybe this is what is needed

for him to actually

get the help because sometimes they say

you know you have to lose everything to

hit rock bottom to then be accepting

that you need help but that that didn't

happen and I think when

when it when

the court order happened in October

which is what three days after he

announces he's shutting down the company

or was it more

it was a very quick period I can't

remember exactly but yeah I think it was

within days

but then things just seem to keep

spiraling and obviously you know at that

point in October I was seven months

pregnant and so I remember I had like

one last travel before I was at the kind

of no no flying stage so

I went to Toronto and actually the first

thing I did was bringing back a lot of

the incredible team members that had

gone during the period of 2018.

so I need to pause there because that's

pretty astounding you're seven months

pregnant

the founder has been ousted by a huge

like multinational billion dollar

conglomerate and you're thrust in as CEO

of the company of 700 people who have

just gone through

chaos

what do you do day one

um

so so assemble the team so you know the

key people who were Incredibly Close to

Brandon who had also been fired and kind

of pushed out in in all of this chaos

they needed to come back to the company

because they were also co-founders they

were also people who had been there from

the beginning understood the values and

we desperately needed

I remember going for dinner with Stephen

and say like I need you to come back so

Stephen was a CFO at the time and then

we came back as a CEO and again like we

just needed to get organization because

I mean in this period of 2018

you have to remember the

our demand for the products went through

the roof because I mean there was a lot

of noise around what was happening and

did it help sales massively which is

frustrating but you know

because we had such good products

that was also in the conversation but it

was like have you seen what's happening

have you seen this Instagram have you

seen this sounded like it's you know

I'll be honest with you the only time

I'd had because I'm I'm not a buyer of

the products the ordinary products the

only time I'd heard about the brand was

I heard a story when I was in New York I