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kobe bryant was not interested in

winning championships

he was obsessed he was the trainer for

dwyane wade kobe bryant michael jordan

the book is relentless tim rover what is

your dark side after every semester of

anatomy class you have dead bodies my

dad's job was to dispose of those bodies

you have to cut off their legs you have

to cut off their head i saw him do that

when i was four years old

it doesn't get any darker than that

if i spoke to some of your clients and i

asked them what was tim good at for you

what would they say to me elevating them

to another level very few people

understand what winning does to an

individual's mental health

winning doesn't make you heartless but

it teaches you to use your heart less

every decision i've made i knew what the

cost was going to be if you think the

price of winning is too high wait till

you get the bill from regret

so without further ado

i'm stephen bartlett and this is the

diary of a ceo usa edition i hope

nobody's listening but if you are

then please keep this to yourself

[Music]

tim

i read in your book winning the

unforgiving race to greatness

chapter 12.

and i don't usually start with people's

books i wanna i wanna you usually start

somewhere else but

in chapter 12 you talk about this this

concept of the dark side and the darkest

side right there huh yeah yeah and the

reason i want to go right there is

because i actually think it's the start

for many people it's the start

so tell me about your

dark side and where

and what it came from

this is a very unique story so

my father both my parents are indian

descent

so they came over to

the states when i was four my mother

came over first

she was a nurse practitioner

and my dad was a professor in india so

when he came over

from india to the uk he was still a

professor over there when he came from

uk to the united states

they said that his education would not

transfer

that he could not he wasn't qualified

enough to teach

at the

university level

in the states

so my dad said okay well what job do you

have available

so they had a job back then it was

called a degreaser

a degreaser

is an individual doesn't this job does

not exist anymore

after every

quarter or every semester of anatomy

class

you have cadavers cadavers cadavers dead

bodies

my dad's job was to dispose

of those bodies

now this is a man that was called a

doctor

back in the old country

now when you dispose of these cadavers

it's not a garbage truck that comes and

picks them up

you have to dismantle them

you have to cut off their legs

you have to cut off their arms

you have to cut off their head

and you throw them in a furnace

i saw

him do that when i was four years old

my parents couldn't afford babysitters

my mom worked at night

my dad worked during the day so when you

were off from school

guess what

you can't disturb mom because she's

worked 16 hours at night you go to work

with your dad

my dad said

he goes son

never let your pride get in the way

of doing what's necessary and providing

for the people you love

it doesn't get any darker than that

you still feel it today

very

i wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him

and the things that he did

both of them

never complained

went to work every single day

as you were telling me that story what

was the emotion

you know what people talk about

sacrifice

that others did for them very few get to

actually witness it and remember

there's certain memories that people

have

when you go way back in age and they

can't even remember i have vivid

memories

of those things

and how not only did they mold him how

they molded my brother

the effects it had on both of us

positive and negative

and i understand

how to use

that darkness

in the most

positive way just like my dad did

because to him

that darkness

was a new beginning

he didn't look at it as

an individual who like i'm so

accomplished back over here

he was just grateful and thankful to be

in the united states and have a new

opportunity and a new beginning

for his family

and i always say this and this is why

when we talk about

the dark and the darkness and the dark

side and all that other stuff

people forget this

i always say this

when does a new day

start

it starts at midnight

is it dark outside at midnight

yes

so if a new day and a new beginning

starts in the dark every day

that's when your new beginnings start

but so many people are afraid

to go to that place

and i tell them

you have to visit that place because if

that place comes visits you it will

never leave if you go visit

the

darkness that you've been running from

you'll have the opportunity to leave a

better person

you'll have a better understanding of

yourself you have better understanding

of your purpose

but if you don't take that trip

and the darkness comes visits you it's a

guest that will never leave

that dark side you referenced it did

good and bad things for you

negatives and positives what are the

negatives

it hardened me

it it it really it hardened me it

hardened me to the point where

i had a hard time communicating with

other individuals and a hard time

understanding

things that were so easy for me to deal

with

the hardships

the trials and tribulations

and i would see other people

complain about things and i'm like what

are you complaining about i don't i was

just like i couldn't relate to it

i just i just couldn't relate to it i

didn't have much compassion for that for

those in for those individuals

and you talk in the book that

often

you're visited at night by

a presence

in the early hours of the morning

every night there's an individual

that comes visit you

you know everybody has

everybody has these grand grandioso

dreams and these day dreams about

success and money and fame and power

and i always say

winning never visits you in your

daydreams it sees you in your nightmares

the things that you come visit you in

your nightmares those things are real

those are the things that you have to

deal with those are the monsters

underneath the bed those are the

skeletons in the closet

those are the things that you've put

away and some of the stuff that you've

put away and you don't want to deal with

is some of the best part of you

how many times have you heard this

people always say

you know always show up

positive

you know always bring your positivity

well

that means you only bring half of you

that means you're not accepting the

other half

you got to bring the light you got to

bring the dark

you got to bring the good

you got to bring the bad

you have to have conversations

with those skeletons in your closets

they know you better than you know

yourself

in order to stand out

in order to fight

many times you have to become that

monster

but most individuals when they become

that monster they don't know how to

control it

and they let the monster control them

so it's a learning process

and all those years that you run from

that monster underneath your bed you're

actually being taught can you control

that monster or is that monster gonna

control you

and once you recognize that part of that

monster or all that monster is you

that's when you can actually start

fulfilling your dreams and living the

life that you're meant to live

how did that monster manifest itself in

your behavior outside of you said about

you struggle to be compassionate with

other people you struggle to have

empathy for their their struggles

was there other things that you where

that monster would rear its ugly head or

take control of you

you know what when the monster took over

it wasn't for bad things it allowed me

to deal

with

you know how mean kids could be the

different the different bully the

bulliness in school that every kid goes

to whether it's physical or mental you

know the teasing all that other stuff

that monster allowed me to get gave me

that strength to

not to lash out back at those

individuals

and just say hey continue trust yourself

continue on this continue on this path

all right and don't worry about

trying to prove those individuals wrong

you and i will prove ourselves right

when you talk about and this is what i

was trying to gauge when i was listening

to your audiobook you talk about these

at 2am realizing you're not alone and i

wasn't sure if you were being literal

or figurative you were i wasn't sure if

you literally felt the presence of

spirits or someone else in your room or

you meant or it was a figurative way to

talk about the thoughts that were in

your mind it's both

it's both

when you get out of bed or you want to

get out of bed

there's all these individuals that are

lined up

next to that bed

there's fear

there's doubt

there's compassion there's hatred

there's excellence

there's sorrowness

there's excuses

and they all have their hands out

literally literally

and then you get to choose

every single day

who gets a vote

it's your decision

it's your decision

and most times

many individuals

make their decisions

with their

feelings and when you have to make those

decisions with your mind

every single morning

if you can't get out of your beds

and you choose not to win

you listen to your feelings

if you chose to get out of bed

and you said there's a win for me

that's your mind

and each one of those individuals you

decide who gets a vote and some days not

all the popular

things are going to get a vote success

may not get a vote winning may not get a

vote

but

you've made that decision that now

this thing

gets a vote

i must be ready to deal with it

every single day

there's something

different

there also has to be something different

about yourself

and i said this in winning

different

scares

people

when you're different it scares people

when the world is different it scares

people everything different

scares people

but

it attracts

the right

emotions it attracts the right feelings

it attracts right thoughts and it

attracts the right

people because the people that are

willing

to not judge you and understand and know

that these things are real

they are real

they will tell you

i understand with both books that i've

written people were like i thought i was

the only one

because this is not

it's not accepted to talk about these

things

because people put you in this land of

you're crazy

and anytime anybody's told me i'm crazy

i've always thanked them for that

because it gave me the ability to see

and do things

that other people can't do and

acknowledge things that other people

won't acknowledge

it seems to be a bit of a paradox that

sometimes our dark side whatever that

might be it could be being bullied in

school and the consequences that had or

you know as you say in the book as well

being overweight and being bullied for

that or some trauma or whatever you've

had in your life it seems to be a

paradox that our dark side can both be

the driving force of our life and also

the cause of so much pain

so it can be the thing to put us in pain

and then also the thing that drives us

out of pain

if that makes sense it makes 100 well

you know you look at it

it's

for

a lot of individual

you know

the physical pain that they put

themselves through is actually their

pleasure you know my athletes when they

the at the highest level of their

training

it is the most uncomfortable state they

put themselves through every single

day

and people are just like i'm just not

gonna i'm not gonna do that they see

people that run the ultra marathons it's

people that take these these ice baths

it's you know it's it's all it's all out

there

now that doesn't mean if you do those

things you're gonna you're gonna excel

in other aspects of your life

but it does

raise your level of understanding

that

nothing great

is going to come

without you having

to deal with what i call adversity and

pain tolerance

you must be able to deal with that and

the more

understanding you have of what's causing

you the pain and how you've dealt with

it

is going to determine how successful

you will be in whatever you choose

in life you know you have individuals

who will become from

a broken family

and you could have two children that

come from the broken family

and

one individual

will

will not live up to their potential

and they'll say

it's because

i came from a broken family

and then you have the other individuals

same environment same household same

everything

would do

great things

not only for themselves for humanity for

this world and what's their answer

because i came from a broken family

they both understood how to use the pain

one used it to excel

the other used it to deny

having done this podcast for the amount

of amount of time that i've done it

what you've articulated there about that

broken home scenario

um is the thing i've always played

around with which is

a trauma causes an adverse response

typically

greatness or despair yes and it's and

i've always tried to figure out what a

trauma is going to do but it's been

impossible to for me but in your case it

led you to be

great

in what you do and what you achieved in

your life and the people you worked with

so tell me about how you went from that

traumatic early

upbringing that created that dark side

in you

to

being a sports enhancement specialist

that's how you that's how you prefer

yes that was my official title when i

was

when my main

job was

to train profession to train

professional athletes so i didn't want i

never wanted to consider myself and

label myself as a trainer because i did

i did more i did more than that so i

actually came up with that that title

myself

so i played college basketball myself i

had these dreams of playing professional

basketball

wasn't wasn't good enough okay but i was

like

what can i do

to make sure this doesn't happen to

other individuals

and i was like you know what

i started to study the body really

really

closely

which goes all the way back to

when i was four years old

so not only did i have to study the body

from an external standpoint i had to

learn it from an

internal internal standpoint

going through the different injuries

that i suffered through

my years of working out training

playing allowed me to understand what an

individual goes to not only from a

physical standpoint i understood what

was going on

in their head if they hurt their ankle

hip

back

all that stuff

i knew so not only was i able to train

them from a physical standpoint i was

able to train them from a psychological

standpoint i know what you're going

through i know the barriers

that you have to go that you have to go

through because it's so much easier

to get an individual back

from a physical injury

but it's that mental scar that stays

with them

how what do you have to do to make them

forget about that mental scar

and that's where my that's where my

niche came in like okay i need you to go

out there and play and play at the

highest level and not worry about

what happened

six months ago

nine months ago

six weeks ago

so when it became sports enhancement

the enhancement part the sports was the

physical the enhancement part

was

was the mental

if i spoke to some of your clients that

knew you best

michael jordan

kobe

and all these others and i know you work

now with a lot of ceos a lot of business

leaders etc

and i asked them what is tim good at

what was tim good at for you what would

they say to me

elevating

elevating them to another level

holistically holistically

just being able because when somebody

comes up to me and they said

i want to be

something

and i look at it well somebody's already

done that i need more

you can't come to me and just say i want

to be everyone says i want to be the

world's best tennis player i want to be

the world's best basketball player i

want to be the world's greatest pop pop

podcaster what

that's already been done

there's another level you're not

thinking big enough

my individuals come to me and say listen

i have these dreams i have these

thoughts

and the first thing i tell them

your dreams and thoughts better be so

big that they better scare you

they better scare you

why because you're not thinking big

enough then you don't want it

it has to be something that nobody else

has thought about before or done before

the process it takes to be number one

and stay at number one

you have no you have no idea

you have an idea because you've been

there

everybody wants to sit in your seat

until they have to sit in your seat

very few people understand

what winning and success does to an

individual's mental health

everybody thinks the more you win the

more successful you are

it just makes everything so much easier

and they don't understand the pressures

that these individuals

put on themselves

to continue

to perform at the highest level

to have their businesses win

over and over again

when you reach

a million followers on your social media

it's a

[Music]

different

level

of pressure

than an individual who isn't

winning all the time who hasn't been

successful at the highest level at the

highest level who's not being critiqued

about every decision they make

about what they wear

about what they say

where they go

and that's a whole different level

of

mental health that success brings

that a lot of people just don't

understand

michael

i uh i watched the last dance

documentary

i saw you in there as well

um

really i've got to be honest i

didn't really know much about mj before

that

and it went from me watching that

documentary

getting obsessed with him

to hanging a picture on the wall in my

office back in london

um very soon after a neon sign in my

office in london just of that silhouette

for many many reasons but as i read

through your story and a lot of my

listeners won't know about this so

i feel obliged because i know the

question they'll be asking is how on

earth did you go from

a college graduate that was you know

earning three dollars an hour as a

trainer in a gym

to

becoming

the trainer of

all the sports enhancement specialists

for

michael jordan who many see as one of

the greatest if not the greatest

sporting athletes of all time

what happened in that gap

well

when

i started to go to college i didn't know

what i wanted to do

and

you know again being of

indian descent and having both parents

and in the medical in the medical field

you get to choose

two options

as a career

one being a doctor

and this is back in the 80s

second being a doctor

that's it

and i told my parents i do not want to

go

i don't want to be a doctor they said

well what do you want to do

i said i want to train professional

athletes i knew this very early

i knew this very very very very early

because when i was a freshman in college

there was a

uh a class it was the first time it was

being offered at the school it was

called kinesiology just movement of the

muscles and body

and

basically movement movement of

humans

and i took it kind of picked up a book

and i started i said you know what

this is for me

so when people kept telling me why are

you going to take this class why

everybody said oh you know most people

that take these

courses end up being in the health

industry whether it be studying science

working in administrations in colleges

or being uh health educators and i just

like no there's there's something more

out there for me

there's something there's something more

out there for me

and then when we

we'd have

our basketball practices in college and

so forth and i was like

all we're doing is just we're just

running running we're doing stuff

without a purpose

this this this can't this can't be this

can't be right this can't be right and

we had an individual that would come in

and

work our team out i was just like this

doesn't just

this doesn't feel right

so i really took study to this i really

wanted to understand this

later on i graduated with a master's

degree

parents were like

you know well you got this you can't

stay at home gotta go get a job master's

degree in master's degree in exercise

science

all right

and

i took a job at a local health club

the minimum wage back then was

and 35 cents

i took the job

i took the job

they did not allow i was the most

qualified

individual they had on their training

staff but they still wouldn't allow me

to train because i had to do the

six-month

probation period

so i said okay no problem so what i did

was i worked in the exercise rooms i

basically cleaned the clean the

equipment opened up the gyms did

different different different stuff

different stuff like that and then after

six months passed by they said okay you

have to take this exam

and if you pass the exam we'll allow you

to be a trainer well what

the funny part about is when i looked at

the exam it was the exam i actually

wrote as one of my projects

for school and this and this health club

was using the exam i actually wrote to

certify their trainers

crazy

so i looked at this exam i i gave all

the answers and i gave it to them and

they they scored and they said you got

100 you're able to qualify as a trainer

i said thank you i said where'd you guys

get that from

they said you know oh you know what we

got it from you from a university i said

which university

and they said university of illinois

chicago i said yeah i said you should

really follow up and see

who developed that exam

so they came back later on and said

you wrote this i said yes i'm the one

that wrote this exam i'm the one that

wrote this is that so i became the

trainer over there and in a very short

period of time

i became the highest grossing trainer

they had

in the in there but what was great about

it is

and i talked about this in the book

school taught me

what to think

all the education all the books

everything i knew exactly what to what

to think

but when you start dealing with humans

who are able to communicate and who have

their own thoughts and have their own

beliefs and have their own feelings have

their own emotions have their own ideas

i was like

as a whole part of my education that's

missing here

my schooling taught me what to think

now i need to learn how to think

there's a big difference between the two

and once i started training individuals

understanding

how

different people adapted to the

different ways of communicating

different times of working out different

words different facial expressions

whether

different levels of silence

that's when i really started to manifest

my trade and understand the results

with all the different type of

individuals and these weren't just

athletes he was everybody who wanted to

just get into shape lose weight get

stronger jump higher run a little faster

play better tennis whatever it may be

but i'm sitting here and i'm like i'm

only using

maybe 10 percent of what i've learned in

school there's got to be more

and there was a small article in the

local newspaper that said michael jordan

was tired of taking the physical abuse

from the detroit pistons

and wanted to get stronger

like okay

so i said you know what

now back then remember there's no cell

phones no emails

you just uh

there's no way of direct messaging

social media there's no way of direct

messaging anybody so i said i'm gonna

write

letters there's 15 players on a

basketball team i'm going to write 14

letters the one person i'm not going to

write a letter to is michael jordan

he's the best why would he why would he

work with an individual that's never

worked with a professional athlete so i

wrote 14 letters explaining my

background

what what i do what my training

philosophy is and back then you put a

stamp in it you go to the post office

you put them in the mail

and they get delivered to the player's

training facility and they get thrown in

the locker as fan mail

whether the player decides to open it up

or not that's up to them

well obviously somebody opened up one of

the letters

and michael saw it in some

in somebody else's locker pulled the

letter out

read it and gave it to the team

physician and the athletic trainer

during that time and said hey

find out what this is about

i have to pause you there just to

highlight

the fact that most people would not send

those letters i'm not most

there's nothing about me that qualifies

as most there's nothing that qualifies

me me as me as average because you know

what

what's the worst thing that could have

possibly happened i'd be in the exact

same situation i was in

i wasn't gonna be any worse

if i didn't take that initiative i

didn't take that action

i was in a worse situation

in hindsight yeah

but it's so it's so interesting because

that those moments riddle my story where

i sent um

the first one was just sending emails to

at nine to eighteen years old to say

same people were you invested in my

company at 18 after dropping out of

university and i i talk about this and

this is why i paused you because

it happened when i was 16 happened when

i was 18 happened when i was 24 and

those were pivotal moments in my life

and as you say if i rolled the dice and

got a bad hand i was in the same place

but but it was free to it was like free

to roll in your case it cost you a

couple of stamps to roll

and it baffles my mind that you know the

people the young people that listen to

this podcast that are trapped in the

situation they're in aren't just rolling

the dice every day to see if

they can get a michael jordan

the best of the best

they're always looking for a competitive

edge

they're always looking for that

that

.001 percent thing that can make them

better i had a conversation i and this

individual i never i'd i've never worked

with but he was an event

that i was speaking at also and he spoke

but he spoke before me michael phelps oh

yeah all right for anybody that doesn't

know michael phelps maybe the most

accomplished olympic swimmer of all time

yes

so michaels

said that he trained

every single day he was he was

he was at the pinnacle of his career and

he said it's not like i can go ahead and

i can knock off three seconds

he goes i train every single day

so i can shave

0.001 second

he goes that's my ultimate goal after

three four months of getting ready for

my next race or years whatever it is i

need to be i need to shave

.0001 off my time

and everybody he surrounded himself with

that was their job

marginal gains as we call it that one

percent that 0.1

and i i heard you talk about this with

with kobe in the book and your other

athletes um that that trying to find

that edge and kobe was one of those

people that in the book that you talk

about really trying to find that edge as

well um in his career

i'm really compelled by the concept of

marginal gains because

i feel like it's been my religion for my

life and my team here hearing me talk

about this so much that they're sick of

it which was which is like how do we

make what we're doing here all my

businesses but let's just focus on what

we see here one percent better so

whether it means

putting these little things up to stop

the reflection in there whether it means

you know the effort they went to to put

these things up like that is my religion

and when i when you sat down here i said

this podcast has been going for about a

year and we're number one and that is

purely based on the fact that we believe

the one percent will change our

trajectory in an invisible way in the

moment but in a profound way over time

yes how important are those marginal

gains

to the athletes that you've worked with

and in the work you do with them still

today it's everything

it's everything and it's in the details

you know you just described all these

little things and somebody coming on it

doesn't matter

you know a great example was like you

know what when we handed you the book

you're like this cover is so much better

than the other one

switch it

it's the little attention to the little

things that people

everyone thinks they won't notice you

hear this all the time don't sweat the

small stuff

the one percenters the 0.01 they sweat

every

single

detail

because the one thing they let slips

somebody is going to use that to their

advantage somebody is going to make a

big deal out of it and they're going to

feel like

they left something out you know

everyone says don't worry about the

things that you can't control

well these individuals

they want to control everything they can

control so the uncontrollable becomes

more manageable to them so if they pay

attention to every single detail

obsessively over and over and over again

that when the uncontrollable

happens

they can have a better chance of

controlling it

there's a big thing that we used to use

with kobe all the time

is i used to ask individuals

if you're interested

in taking

your business

or your basketball game

your football skills your podcast

and this we'd have a room of thousands

and thousands of people

stand up

and everybody would stand up and they

give this big rounding clap and all this

other stuff

if you're interested in taking it to

number one if you're interested yes to

uh the next level for some people it may

not be number one whatever it is

everybody claps up and then i say sit

back down then i would ask him i said

all right

if you're obsessed

with taking your business

your sport

whatever it is to another level stand up

and everybody would stand up again well

i would say well which one is it

which one is it you can't be interested

and you can't be obsessed

interested is a hobby

kobe bryant was not interested

in winning championships he was obsessed

and obsession comes

in the small details that nobody

pays attention

to

and i have a saying

all right

interested people watch obsessed people

change the world

kobe was interested in those small

details that nobody else was interested

in paying attention to

what were those small details for him

everyone talks about

maximizing their time

kobe and i were interested in maximizing

his focus when you maximize your focus

it gave us more it gave us more time

the

having everything laid out for him so he

wouldn't have to worry about

the

what shoes he what shoes he had to wear

where where the t where the tickets had

to go for friends and for the friends

and

family

we would come around and in the

different arenas i would walk the floors

while he was getting dressed and i would

tell him

where

the ball doesn't bounce as well

because on a basketball court it's made

out of wood

all right and they're they're portable

floors and everybody knows

in certain arenas they're dead spots

you force the player into that area if

the ball is going to bounce there it's

not going to it's not going to bounce as

high which gives the team team the

advantage

and a lot of times when they would move

those they would move those pieces

around

so we would walk around bounce the ball

that spot that spot that spot that spot

so we'd get an advantage of the details

that nobody else would pay attention to

that

if we went into that area we know stay

away from that area or if we know we

can't dribble on that that that

particular spot and there was one time

there was a game where

kobe was before the game he was shooting

free throws

and he was like

something isn't something isn't right so

he called the one of the maintenance

guys over he goes are you sure this

basket is right

and the guy said yeah he goes well i

want you to check it for he measured

it was an eighth of an inch off

when you're that obsessed when you pay

that much attention to the to the to the

details

you know it's no different than what you

said about the lighting

and the microphones and the team i've

never seen

i've done quite a few podcasts

we're very selective in who who

we want to sit we want to sit down with

and this is the first time i've seen

this many

individuals were having a conversation

yesterday and i've been thinking about

it the last two days since we had the

conversation the conversation is should

we hire someone full-time to look at the

data and analytics of the episodes when

they go out so we can

if we put an episode out and the title

thumbnail is wrong we can know within 24

hours if we need to change it like we we

know in this conversation which part in

hindsight from looking at the data

people found most interesting because

they pull it back and watch it again

and it's all of these insights which are

there but we want to be the team that is

the team that cares enough about that

about those tiny details because that is

our religion as we say that is what

where we believe we'll find all the

gains that's where the separation is

the separation

is in the details it's in the details

the separation and the clothes you wear

is in the details the sh the shoes the

car that you drive the the house your

your education it doesn't matter whether

you go to the most expensive university

or you drop out of the universe it's the

details you pay attention to

in your studies in whatever your career

choice is

that those are the things that matter

you pay attention to the details in in

your family pay attention to the details

in your kids you pay attention to the

details of what makes your significant

other happy how they react to certain

things

it's people get comfortable

with not having to manage

the details

i had a few words to say about one of my

sponsors on this podcast as the seasons

have begun to change so has my diet and

um

right now i'm going to be completely

honest with you i'm starting to think a

lot about

slimming down a little bit because over

the last couple of probably the last

four or five months my diet has been

pretty bad um and it started to show a

little bit really over the last two

months i go to the gym about 80 of the

time so i track it with 10 of my friends

in a whatsapp group and this tracker

online that we all use together we call

it fitness blockchain and i'm currently

at 81 percent

um so 81 of the days i've done a workout

in the last 150 days right so i'm going

to the gym about six times a week

that's been a little bit impacted by the

derivative live tour but i'm trying to

stick to it

and so one of the things i'm doing now

to reduce my calorie intake and trying

to get back to being nutritionally

complete and all i eat is i'm having the

heel protein shake thank you hill for

making a product that i actually like

the salted caramel is my favorite i've

got the banana one here which is the one

my girlfriend likes but for me salted

caramel is

the one

having worked with a man like kobe and

seeing what he strived for his you know

his focus on legacy his obsession with

his sports and his craft and his

obsession

as many have said

of being better than michael jordan

he's no longer with us tragically

but having seen a man striving for that

greatness in his life and for that

legacy

and having seen how that story ended and

now being able to look back on the

fullness of his life

what was he missing

and the reason i asked this question is

because sometimes

i reflect on my own striving and think

is there something in hindsight

having lived a life where i achieve

those things where i reach the top in

you know my industry in business or in

podcasting wherever it might be or as an

investor that i'm going to realize in

hindsight and go do you know what

legacy might not have mattered as much

as i thought it did it might not have

mattered as much as relationships or

friendships or something else

i always say this the most driven

individuals

they live a life

for many years

and certain times without balance

everybody strives for balance balance

balance

and in order to be that obsessed with

something over and over again

so if you say something that's that was

missing but it was actually a gift

was

his lack of balance

you know there were time now

you can't be

the best

at something

and try to balance everything else

around your life

there is going to be times where things

are going to be

out of balance it's just this

i you know so many individuals talk

about

that

you need more balance you need more

balance you need more else you don't

find balance you create it and it's

different for every individual out there

what

the balance i've created may be

completely different than the balance

you you've cr you've created and there's

certain times in your life that the

scales are definitely going to be

weighing towards one side more than the

other in early part of kobe's kobe's

career it was about

it was about basketball and winning

about basketball and winning

and towards the end of it towards the

end of his career and you know he played

for 20 years it became more less about

winning it was still about basketball

and it became more focused became more

on

spending time with the family but you

have to surround yourself with people

and this is very important to the

listeners

you have to surround yourself with

people

when your life is

unbalanced

with individuals that would be selfish

for you

they understand your obsession they

understand your drive they understand

your attention to detail

no i guarantee it

almost i don't know your whole team

but i guarantee almost everyone on your

team

at some point

every single day is

they become selfish for another

individual so that individual can

perform and do their task at the highest

level

that's how you get closer to balance you

want to get closer to balance don't

continue to add stuff

get closer to balance by deleting the

unessentials

delete the unessentials the most

successful people

and the success when i talk about

success i'm not just talking about

from a financial standpoint whatever

success means to you and whatever

success means to you in your

in your life

they've learned

how to disconnect

they've learned how to delete

the unessentials

because you spend so much time

being obsessed and paying attention to

the details that you don't have time you

don't have focus

for the unessentials the most successful

people

have the smaller circles

when people hear that

there'll be young kids that listen and

they'll

they might stop talking to their family

they might stop calling their girlfriend

and they might say you know what it's

because i just need to be obsessed and

they might compromise things in their

life that lead them to

despair and happiness and those kinds of

things and i always wonder with these

individuals that you've worked with that

are at the highest level that are that

are obsessed

do they prioritize happiness as the goal

as the ultimate goal or is winning the

goal at all costs and in your view

do sometimes they go too far should

happiness be the goal i can't make that

decision for those individuals

my job

if happening happiness could be winning

for them

all right but you don't find happiness

you create it

you're not going to find winning you

have to create you have to create

winning habits

i sat here with a lady who became the

number one youtuber in the world and she

had 15 million subscribers and she was

talking about her obsession she would

get these spreadsheets this was before

the analytics she'd write down how the

video done in each like hour two hours

whatever she was obsessed she becomes

the biggest in the world and in the

process of getting there she realized

that this was she was completely burnt

out miserable depressed and she'd been

like dragged by this obsession to a

place that

made her depressed and eventually in

2019

she quits youtube

and that's what i think sometimes with

our darkness it drags us in a way that

in a less conscious way to a place that

might make us unhappy it does you know

listen winning does not always equate

that winning does not always

equate to happiness it just it just

doesn't for i've had a lot of

individuals that have come to me and

just said this is too intense i'll give

you a great example you know everyone

kobe is known for mama mentality you

know that was that was his thing mama

mentality i've seen mama first of all

mama mentality is not a mentality it's a

lifestyle

that's the first thing i tell

individuals

and once i tell them about the lifestyle

i've seen

mama mentality

destroy more careers than i've seen it

help

too intense

too hot

people want the flame but they don't

want to touch the fire

are you willing to put aside

the things that aren't as important as

aren't as important to you at this

particular moment and i'm not telling

you kids listen don't don't separate

yourself from from your your family but

there's a lot of times that your family

doesn't see the same things that you see

and the same things that you believe in

they've had a certain way of do of doing

things my family very supportive very

supportive but to them

success was

working for

a institution

that you got a paycheck every single two

weeks

you got health

insurance you got paid vacation

you got a 401k

that was their definition

of success

and happiness

to me

none of that would have made me happy

so when you talk about creating

happiness are you creating happiness

that you you've created or somebody else

has created for you are you writing your

story of happiness or did somebody else

write your story of happiness and hand

it to you and say here this is how you

become happy

one of the things i think i've struggled

with in my life is knowing if something

is something i want or if it's

scratching

an insecurity i have so

insecurity as you know is one of the

greatest motivators in the world

then it can turn into an obsession so if

you're bullied in school you might want

to become famous

because that in your view is acceptance

right so you see face you strive and

then the minute you get a taste of fame

maybe because you start a youtube

channel you triple down because people

are clapping for you and this is

everything that didn't happen when you

were a kid this is it's filling that

void but is that happiness or am i just

using external validation to cover a

wound in me and i see this in great

people all the time i always try and get

to the bottom of the pain as we talked

about the darkness the pain the trauma

or whatever that's actually driving them

and i i guess my conclusion has been

that you just need to be conscious

of of that

when you talked about you know that

insecurity that that darkness that need

for for to be valid to be validated

what's going is it controlling you or

are you controlling it

you know the one thing that listen there

was a point where

as obsessed as michael was with

basketball

all right he never let the sport control

him

let he never let that sport control him

he he was like

the there are certain things within this

game yes i have to follow these rules i

have to do things but there are certain

things that i still have to be in charge

of my life i still have to be in charge

of who i am i still have to be in charge

of of my brand

and then when what happens is when you

let external things

and you start playing for the for the

wrong reason a lot of individuals play

always and this is the thing in with in

sports now everyone talks about building

their brand

building their brand

all right and if you follow the people

who have had the greatest success

building their brand is they just

outperform individuals they put a better

product out there do your job better

than anybody else and your brand will

build it itself

so when people look for that happiness

factor

is your foundation and your fundamental

principles so strong

that

if this thing was to go away

could you still create happiness and

success all over again if your

foundation and principles are extremely

strong no matter what endeavor it is you

look at the most successful people in

business

and everything else

they've gone to do multiple things

that have allowed them to create

different levels of happiness within

that confined circle

you know

michael had

basketball

then he had

the shoe brand now he's got other now

he's got other other endeavors he's

involved in you know a lot of

philanthropy things the competitive

nature doesn't stop and everybody thinks

you can only be happy with one one

certain aspect in your in your life in

your life you can create happiness in

multiple things in your life and if it

gets to the point where it is burning it

is burning you out that means it's time

for you for that you are no longer

obsessed with that thing anymore and

it's time for you to beco

become obsessed with something else and

it could be

this stage in your life where your

success and your happiness is now

listen i just want to create happiness

for myself and for the individuals

around me and on that point of balance

was michael ever direct with you about

the sacrifice you would have to make to

come on that journey with him

the first thing he told me was you

better keep up

and what did he mean by that

what he meant by that is not

as a trainer

keep up in life

because this ride we don't know which

direction it's going to go on we don't

know if it's going up down sideways but

be ready for anything this throws at us

interestingly

that's what you knew

he meant

one of the reasons i get along so well

with all my clients professionally

business-wise socially or everybody

because they know i'm just as messed up

as they are

and i don't judge them

my

my daughter always says she goes

dad

you have no weird r

she goes nothing to you is weird

nothing to you and i was when i see

something i just say interesting

i want to know

how that what that person is doing and

why they're doing it

and what's fueling that desire

and also

what are they using that desire what are

they going to fuel it with

with other individuals

one of the stories i tell

years when i first started when i

started first started working with

with uh mj

and this is

a lot of your listeners will be too

young to remember this

but

the recording devices back then was

called a betamax

videotape he's stuck in so what i would

do is i'd have to be at the basketball

games very early

make sure everything was prepped and he

he was he was ready to go and we were

always the last individuals to leave

i'd rewatch

the game

i would count his steps

there was no fitbit back then there was

no no tracking measurements or so forth

well

i needed in my thought and this went

back to my process of

not what to think how to think

is

well how can i prepare him for his next

workout

in the morning

if i don't know

how much physical activity

and the differences between the right

and left side so i would literally count

this is how many steps he took left this

is how many steps he took right this is

how many times he took backwards this is

how many times he left landed on his

right foot this is how many times he

landed on his left foot so i'd have all

this data

so the next morning when i would get up

i'd be able to plan okay you know what

mj

this side you use your

you use your left leg 60 more than you

use your right leg but you use your

right hand more than you use you're like

okay so this is what we're going to do

from a workout standpoint now this is

what we're going to do from a training

standpoint because one side is going to

need different training than the other

side is going to need so we would have

different exercises where he'd have 50

pounds in one hand and 10 in the other

or the certain amount of reps on this

exercise and certain amount of reps on

this exercise certain time spent over

here a certain time spent over here

there was no books out there that told

me this is this was the right thing to

do

i just knew it was right

i just i just knew it was right

and now they use this methodology all

the time so interesting i was thinking

about that because really interesting

when you said that there was no books

out there and tends to be the case with

pioneers and innovators and people that

think from first principles that they

they do it before the books are

published yeah and once the books are

published it's probably too late yeah

people are using math i i stuff we were

doing with him 30 years ago people are

just now using them like

was that music to his ears when he knew

that his

sports enhancement specialist was going

to such a degree of detail could you did

you know that that that was proving to

him that you cared and you were as

obsessed as he was yes

you know he gave me one of the best

compliments that you can ever get

at the highest level when somebody else

would say hey

i want to hi i want to hire tim he goes

i don't pay tim to train me he goes i

pay him not to train anybody else

that is a big compliment

he ultimately introduced you to somebody

else when he retired and stepped out of

the game after 15 years of you working

together which was kobe and i found it

really intriguing that when he

introduced you to kobe

he lovingly used the word

when he introduced you to kobe so he

said like i'm not using tim anymore so

no kobe you can uh you can work with him

why did he use the word

you know what

as in to become as individuals become

more successful

everybody around them becomes yes people

nobody wanted to say no to michael

jordan

oh i was that individual

we had many times

we had very heated short arguments

there were like

three words which i won't say because

it'll it'll offend a lot of your

listeners

but that was the end of the con that was

the end of the conversation i said mj

you hired me

to do

a job at the highest level

i said you cannot do a job at the

highest level without accountability

i said once the accountability

is broken between us

then it's time for you to find another

individual

so he held me accountable i held him

accountable and when somebody says you

better keep up

as a person's star starts to grow the

accountability has a tendency to get

less

because now you don't pay attention to

the details as much as much because

you've you feel like i've achieved it

i've gotten there it's a it's a lot

easier

staying on the top is not the same thing

as reaching the top

many individuals can reach the top but

very few individuals

stay at the top because the

accountability among their team and

among themselves

starts to deteriorate once they've

reached the top

and what does that deterioration in

accountability look like what are the

signs of it

i give you great example

when

people perform at the highest level in

business

sometimes a boss

or the person above them ceo whatever's

allowed you know what man their numbers

are so good

we're going to let them

we're not going to hold them accountable

for this this and this you know they're

still performing they might may not be

performing at the highest level but

they're still performing at a top level

so now you have that little crack

and that little crack gets a little

bigger

and a little bigger

and a little bigger michael in the last

dance said something he goes i never

asked any of my teammates to do anything

that i didn't do

you talk about

the greatest ever play the game

he didn't have to have anybody else hold

him accountable he was

i'm not going to ask you to do anything

that i'm not going to do myself

so as individuals once they've reached

that

pinnacle and they get their arms out and

they start looking down

and say i finally reached the top of

this mountaintop

those are all the right things to do

don't exhale

because the air is so much thinner

up on the top

than it is on the climb to the top

and if you exhale

the next breath you have to catch

will not have the same effect you'll

have to catch multiple breaths over and

over and over again that's why you see

some of these at some of these

individuals

that

retire from a sport they come back or

you see a ceo of a company leave a

company take a year off and now they

become a ceo of an uh of a of another

company

they can't exhale

in chapter five of your book you you

speak to some of these things that

michael would do to to his teammates um

one of them is he would mock his

teammates into dedication right you see

this in the last dance where he's

cracking jokes at them but you know that

the jokes there's these aren't jokes

there's intention behind the jokes yes

he's trying to get them to run faster or

to train harder or whatever can you give

me a window into what you saw in terms

of the way that michael would treat his

teammates in order to get the best out

of him that some might consider to be

in the modern day and age where we're

very soft especially in the business

world

toxic

it worked for him and it was the only

the only way he knew he knew how and

it's a lot of people may consider things

toxic when they initially start out but

then when you see the end result or when

your career is over with or when you're

with a different organization you look

at it and say you know what i really

miss that

i give an example

of

flowers

when

you gift roses or your gifted roses or

any types of flowers

they cut the thorns off

because the thorns you know are prickly

and so forth well when you cut the

thorns off

a rose you decrease its lifespan

so a lot of individuals that have been

thorns in your life

have actually allowed you to propel

to places that you would never be able

to propel before

and you don't miss it until this thorn

is not when that thorn is no longer

there

so when michael

was constantly pushing his players

getting them to l

everybody knew he was not coming down to

their level he didn't expect everybody

to come up to his level but he knew

there was another level for each and for

each individual

and he just wanted you to perform at the

highest level and he wanted you to have

a taste of winning not just once but

numerous times over and over again and

he had to be genuine to who he who he

was

the one of the things that i talk about

in my other book relentless one of the

13 i said you know exactly who you are

he knew exactly who

he was he knew who he can communicate

with

and say certain things

and he knew when not to say certain

things and have another individual talk

to that person but when he spoke

everybody everybody listens they're if

you watch practices

everybody would come into the practice

and they'd be laughing and kind of

joking and having a having a good time

and so forth and as soon as

that whistle was blown

silence

and michael always said i practice so

hard and we all need to practice so hard

so the games become easier

do you think he used those thorns as

well as a bit of a filter

in terms of filtering out the teammates

that he didn't think were yes were good

enough yes

i won't say they were good enough as one

he that he could trust in certain

situations trust me it was the the

thorns were more for trust how how can

can i keep poking you oh how many times

can i keep poking you

and see are you going to come back are

you going to come back what what what's

your adversity tolerance

because there's going to be certain

situations

that can i trus can i trust you

can i trust you in that situation and if

you look throughout his career there's

very few people when the game was on the

line that he would trust to pass the

ball to and say hey this is what's going

to happen very very few and all those

individuals

that he did that with

at some point

in their career stood up to him and

challenged him

isn't that interesting

it's almost a bit of a paradox the the

fact that

we trust those most and that's the

sounds

from everything i've read like much of

the reason why he trusted you

was because he knew you had put truth at

the the front of everything you do and

to be honest i think i've probably said

this to my team before but the people

that are a most valuable

um in my circle are those that are do

you have a voice and are willing to give

it to me despite my

um

despite my success yeah those are the

ones you want you want to keep around

right you look yeah i definitely keep

those individuals definitely keep those

individuals around i

just

it's too easy

too many times

we let people off the hook

i can't let an individual off the hook

because it's too easy think about the

time that you left you let somebody off

the hook

how'd it turn out for you

badly the first example that came to

mind was

someone who i hired to lead one of our

countries for our for our company

and their behavior was not up to

standard and i procrastinated on it for

too long for

for more than a year

and it cost me every day when i say cost

i mean it was a seven figure cost to our

company and eventually i had to make the

decision that i should have made it at

the start right i should have but for

some reason i was for reasons i now

clearly understand i was avoiding the

decision and letting the person off the

hook how many years ago was that

um i think now it'd be four years ago

all right if that same situation

happened now how quickly would you

remember oh so fast all right so so

quickly and i have subsequently and i

when i do respond in that way i recite

that story right to the people around me

i go four years ago this happened and

it's my single biggest regret in

business because i procrastinated on

making a decision i knew i had to make i

let the person off the hook so this is

why today four years later we're making

this decision as soon as we possibly can

winning doesn't make you heartless

but it teaches you to use your heart

less

four years ago

you were using your heart

yeah now

you'd use your heart you still have a

heart but you'd use it less

and my brain more

exactly yeah

mind over feelings

and when we're faced with those tough

decisions for me what i learned in

hindsight is

it felt like difficulty in the moment

that's why part of the reason i

procrastinated on the decision but in

hindsight it caused so much more

difficulty

in the long term so it's really that

like ballot the the wisdom i got from it

is you know a tough decision

today or you can make the same decision

but in a year's time when it becomes

when the cost and the implications of

the decision are even greater and it's

had a time to drag you or pull you down

or to make you lose games whatever it

might be or lose money in business and

so that decisiveness and putting mind

over matter is something that i've

definitely developed as

a ceo

one of the things you said which i found

really um

thought-provoking and it kind of bucked

the trend in chapter 12 of your book is

when someone says showing up is half the

battle you're looking at an individual

who is already losing the battle people

say that all the time showing up is half

the battle showing up is none of the

battle

you showed up

i showed up

were we supposed to not do the podcast

and go have a drink

showing up is none of the battle people