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music is game of thrones bro when you

see game of thrones they kill the main

character do you what i'm saying they

don't mind doing that wembley makes the

noise for reds feature together

i think the best turning point for me

was when i was 16 and my mom threw me

out she feels like it was a harsh thing

to do but i'm like at the end of the day

if you don't do that for me at 16 i

don't become rich

we signed for a single which was tractor

that was my ringtone twin said to me he

was like this song was going to change

your life and then yeah bam it goes in

the charts and everything changed after

that

the obsession

made me better made me more hungry when

you find your passion here you find your

calling bro you're not fair to no one

everyone comes second bro my daughter

she has no recognition of living with me

i just became a monster man i just you

can't skip what's important man how many

we get 80 years maybe now your legacy

can can triple that broke have the right

one what if it just hadn't worked out

it had to

so without further ado i'm stephen

bartlett and this is the diary of a ceo

i hope nobody's listening but if you are

then please keep this to yourself

[Music]

rich

take me back to tottenham when you're

growing up um i'm a big believer and to

be honest i always start these podcasts

in the same way because i came to learn

when i was younger the importance of

those early years on shaping who we

become as adults and someone said this

wonderful quote to me that we're

actually just children living out the

stories we told ourselves about

ourselves long ago

so take me back to tottenham where you

grew up in the context in which made you

the man you are today grew up in seven

sisters in a state called tibetan

tottenham was just notorious in it for a

lot of madness a lot of crime a lot of

this a lot of that

and i think

for me just growing up and learning how

to navigate through that how to

understand who you are what you're here

for

and also my parents and grandparents and

all that they were proper embedded

in you know fighting against police

brutality so i always had

a lot of understanding about certain

things that were probably above my age i

feel like i was always someone that

could get along with everyone like

whether our cool kid uncle kid whatever

i like i could always

have something to speak about with

anyone and i think throughout life

that's always helped me and it's always

been beneficial but i definitely started

when i was young

um

in their state just like the regular the

regular stuff man that was happening you

know i'm saying like a lot of

badness um

stabbings a lot of this a lot of that

but we just when we were very young we

just wanted to play football you know i

mean when it's a play out play football

play games but as you get older you

you know you start seeing other things

hearing other things and

sometimes even

not even i wouldn't say not unwillingly

sometimes you're just you become a part

of things because you're there on the

day or you're there at that time

and i think a lot of

them early scenarios kind of shaped

who i thought i was going to become at

that time

the best turning point

for me

was when i was 16 and my mum threw me

out

because

i now had to be the adult that i thought

i was

so before that i was you know walking

around the house had a bravado had

attitude for i was a big man for i was a

bad boy for i was whatever

and you know all the time my mom's kind

of like single mom you know there's um

at that time there's a three two older

sisters and two younger sisters and

myself

in the house and just like

at that time just feeling like i'm

feeling myself a bit too much and my mom

was always like look i know you feel

you're beyond your years but you're not

you're actually 15 or you actually fall

in and if you continue moving like this

you're going to be forced to be 21 at

16.

obviously as a you you're not really

taking that in taking it serious one day

i come home and my bags are on the door

so i'm kind of like all right cool and

i'm like

mad prideful as well so

at the time my sisters were like look

just have a conversation with her

she's gonna throw it out just calm down

a bit whatever whatever but i'm just

feeling myself still too much so i'm

kind of just like whatever i took my

bags went to my cousin's house for a

little while

then i just felt like i was just in

other people's space obviously their

family but i just felt like i'm in the

way i don't like feeling like that went

to my sisters

still did feel like i was in the way

even though to her she'll say i wasn't

but

like i just don't want to be a burden to

anyone so then yeah just went to the

housing and yeah 16 years old i was in

my place and i learned so much man and i

think that's the best the best thing

anyone's ever done for me in my life why

did she throw you out

i was too

too vibing man i just thought i was too

i thought i was it

do you get what i'm saying and i think

as well it's like

when you think you're it and you're

making a little money on the roads and

whatever and you're giving someone money

here and there

you're thinking you're doing your part

so maybe i'll give you 200 this month

maybe next month i don't give you

anything maybe the next month i'll give

you a grand maybe the next two months i

don't give you anything but

i'm always reverting back to the fact

that yeah but i gave you yeah but i gave

you oh yeah but i've done this so yeah

but i've done that but what you don't

realize until your adult is every month

the bills are coming

they don't come staggered like you're

giving the money so it's not like

she can't just pay 600 pound rent in

january and nothing in february do you

know what i'm saying so it's like

but you don't have that understanding as

a child you need to be an adult to have

that understanding like these bills are

coming regardless

and i think

even though she was saying it to me i

was still you know like you're still

calculating what you're giving like no

but i gave oh but i've done this so i've

done that

it's not enough the bills don't work

like that being 16 and learning them

harsh lessons this is harsh reality and

i was just like right i actually thought

i was a big man and it's like

like years i i was angry with my mum for

a bit at the time as you would be not

speaking to her kind of like kind of

trying to be like that but you know like

letters are still going there so he's

still getting there i'll get asked my

sister give me the letter bring out the

letters don't really want to go in

whatever still you know being attached

to pride and being attached to too much

attitude and i just had to like humble

myself one day and i'd just be like you

know what mom that was the best thing

anyone's ever done for me and she was

like to this day like when she hears me

say it she still it still upsets her

because she feels like it was you know

very a harsh thing to do but i'm like at

the end of the day if you don't do that

for me at 16 i don't become rich at

20 odd because he's too comfortable

rich comes out of being uncomfortable

being backed in the corner being forced

to be

you know to be a provider being forced

to be the man of his house rather than

thinking he's the man of his mom's house

the man of your house did you know your

father

yeah yeah did you have a relationship

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah my dad's a very

was very very serious man very serious

very serious very strict

very well respected because of

you know in the area with all the the

police brutality and all of that all the

things that they fought for and still

fight for him my uncle and my nan but

just very very very harsh very harsh and

and the dj as well so old school you

remember they used to string up sound

systems

like my mom's house like all the

speakers throughout the passage

one of the rooms all the speakers like

all of us had to share because the

speakers had their own room you know i'm

saying i'm like mom

can't i at least sleep in the in the

speaker like i'm sharing with my sisters

i need a little space or whatever but um

yeah so yeah yeah good relationship

obviously him and my mom parted ways

and um

yeah still still kept a relationship

like i don't have that

i don't know my dad thing like i know my

dad yeah

and uh your grandmother one of the

things you said about her was that

watching her

take care of your grandfather

who had cancer

yeah um was what a really pivotal moment

watching how sort of caring she was with

him and right up until the point that he

passed away

you know like when you're young

your first experiences of death are like

so severe man like so impactful not that

not that it gets any easier but you

understand it more i think when you get

older

and i just think at the time

i don't i don't i've never

understood strength until i met

that situation with my grandma and it

was just

how she how she was you know like

caribbean so when i'd come around she's

like make sure you come back again you

know because i'm soon dead and i'm

saying you're saying to me he soon did

like he's not gonna die i don't even

understand the severity of cancer as

young as i was at that time

she's like yeah man i'm soon dead

managed that and all my friends that he

liked she's like make sure you bring

them to say goodbye and i'm like say

goodbye like what the hell this

everything's cool but it's like

she's saying it to me like that but my

mom and my dad they're not like

explaining the severity of the situation

to me they're not saying like

there's a countdown so i've got my aunt

saying like yo we're giving him organic

food we're doing this so i'm thinking yo

we're fighting it but every time i'm

going back

it's like

he's becoming like i don't know less and

less and smaller and smaller and now i

can

see it but i'm still i don't know i

guess the words naive in it that you're

very hopeful and you're naive thinking

nah nah nah it's going to be cool

because he'd been to be fair he'd been

saying he was sick for years but he was

undiagnosed he was ill but we didn't

know when he went to the doctor he died

once he got diagnosed it's a countdown

now so i don't know if mentally

something

happens there i don't know if how that

works but

just watching a

you know through when he became in was

incontinent like washing him

buffing him feeding him just being there

the whole way through i was just like

that to me is was the real definition of

a marriage that is

you know um sickness and health do you

know what i'm saying that is death do us

part that was literally till death do us

part and i'm like

i don't know if i'd ever see that level

of strength again the other thing that i

really stuck out to me about your

childhood as i was reading through your

backstory was that moment when you're

nine and a car comes up next to you yeah

tell me about that what happened uh what

did that teach you at that point like

tottenham was warring with a lot of

surrounding areas in it so

it was like food fiestas back then

tinted cars rolling through the estate

just

looking for whoever they're looking for

but i live in the middle of it and being

young but being tall

and remember back then when when when

everyone's warm with each other like now

we have the internet so everyone knows

who everyone is what everyone looks like

whatever back then nobody didn't it was

just a description like he's dark

skinned and skinny

do you get what i'm saying so they're

coming looking for a dark skin and

skinny guy but i'm nine

and i'm going shop and then i remember

the car was breezing up to me

and i'm thinking right why is it driving

like that skids

wind down the window and then i look in

the car i'm like bro

but it's like it's just like

nah nah and then drive off and i just

thought wow like what the hell like just

imagine if i ran like because you know

that for a second i was gonna run and i

was thinking right the cars because he's

driving towards me i can run that way

ain't gonna be able to spin around but i

just remember thinking like

i haven't even done anything do you know

what i'm saying first of all but then

when it stopped and they've done that i

was like

let's drive off and i think that thing

there made me feel like

it's probably better to be involved than

to not

at the time

do you get what i'm saying because at

the time i'm not involved i'm actually

just a clean-hearted good you i just

play football and computer that's it you

guys i'm saying so when that happened it

made me feel like right that could have

happened to me for no reason

like i might as well give you a reason

do you know what i'm saying someone

could have done something yeah something

something could have like i could have

been shot whatever they was gonna do and

i think that kind of put a chip on my

shoulder do you know what i mean for the

next

the next couple years which obviously is

what led to my mum feeling like now

you're feeling yourself a bit too much

go and fly the nest like if you don't

you know if you don't

if you don't push the bird out then this

it won't fly you know if you're not

throwing in the water you don't have to

swim kind of thing and a lot of men i

mean this happens

not just on the estate but men that

don't grow up in such circumstances they

start using that like bravado as a as a

form of self-defense but it ends up

um inflicting self-harm in some way i

mean that's what you tend to see with a

lot of gangs right you join for to

defend yourself or to try and fit in but

it leads you down a path of self-harm

yeah because you go from

i'm doing this to fight back yeah and

then you go from fighting back in the

form of defense to offense now because

it's gone from i'm just defending myself

to now i'm out in a club or i'm out

somewhere

and

now you're getting into situations with

people that you feel

look like

you might end up in a situation with so

now it's just happening now it's

proactive yeah i'm saying

if you both

were just defending yourselves then you

can be cool to walk past each other or

be in the same club at the same time or

whatever

i think a lot of like things being

unsaid

like when things ain't clear like you're

in just because you're in an environment

and you feel

i don't know you might not have an issue

with anyone in the environment but

because there's no clarity yeah because

they haven't said we don't have enough

of you and you haven't said we don't

have nothing with you it's just tense

yeah yeah i mean that's life right

relationships you know what i mean is

communication yeah there's just a little

tenseness and it's like why is it tense

and then

depending on how the ice breaks i'm

saying if it breaks the right way it's

cool if it breaks the wrong way

then it's just erupting into something

that didn't even exist to be fair in the

first place and at that age what did you

want to be when you grew up what was the

aspiration

probably wanted to be ian wright

realized early on that ain't gonna

happen

um i liked music

i didn't want to be a musician though

why

it didn't seem realistic

you didn't know anyone in your tribal

circle that i had gone yeah it was like

the musicians were like other people

jay-z yeah you know i'm saying tupac or

naz like that was

somewhere else so it's like yeah you can

do it for fun so we do it for fun we

write whatever i record

on tapes blah blah blah but i never

thought like

this could be a career i could make

money from this i could live in this

space

so i guess like i was into trying to

understand what else happens outside my

estate because because also what happens

you feel like

your family your friends become your

family in the estate

the sweet shop is basically a

supermarket

um

so you don't need to leave you just move

from house to house then we're all

outside we play football then it's 9 p.m

we buy ice poles then everyone goes home

we do it again tomorrow and you just end

up

in a cycle of that but then someone told

me

actually i saw one of my friends in an

advert

a guy from my estate called frank yeah

he was in a lexus advert

as a kid and i was like when he when he

come when i tell you i was like mom

that's francis he was over there i said

frank when i saw him i said frank how

did you get an advert he was like i've

got an agent how's that is it how do you

get agent

who's that there's a newspaper that

comes out every thursday called the

stage so it's like by the stage it costs

a pound but it just shows you so much

different things so i used to buy that

newspaper yeah just to see like

what else can happen like what else is

there and it should be like

auditions or whatever to be fair i never

really go to any but i think like

i was just intrigued about like what

else exists like what other people are

doing then i'd see something about the

british school i'm like i wonder what

that is like all these things that we

don't know nothing about anna shears i

used to see sylvia young

all these things in the paper but there

was always a price a cost like sign up

for this or pay for the portfolio or

whatever and obviously at like 11 12

13 years you can't you know i mean my

mom she's not gonna

there's too many of us to ask for that

we need school uniform first and

foremost everything else is secondary so

um yeah

how old are you and you decided that you

were gonna like record a mixtape

and like publish it and try and sell it

2006 when it came out yeah 2006

learn from my mixtape

came out that's my first

cd 24 songs on there

i tried getting it on spotify i couldn't

no it's not it's not i need to you know

i need to get it up one day people ask

but i think there might be one or two

american beats right so that's why we're

struggling with that but um

yeah man i think at that point i'd been

on pirate radio i've been on heat fm

and i was just like

then i became obsessed i was obsessed i

was just like i need to go studio

as much as i can everything i was doing

was to put into being able to record and

then once i had

seven or eight cds with about

nine songs on each it's like right what

about 50

60 some songs like this is mad maybe i

should just do

do a project so then i came up with the

idea learned from my mixtape because i

wanted it to be like quite educational

like not in a school way but in a

streets way like i always wanted to like

educate the youth and let them know

there was other ways of doing things

kind of thing that's always been my

thing

so yeah came up with that made that

project

the funny thing about that cd is that

you give it to the guy to press up you

pay your six or seven hundred pound and

then he

he presses it up but there back then

they were so long you're rigging him

every friday is it has it arrived no

it's not arrived yet

ringing ringing ringing ringing

so the day my son's born

i'm in the hospital i get a phone call

and it's the guy and i'm like

so the baby's born healthy everything's

cool answer the phone he's like you see

these are here

come now because he's not i don't know i

don't remember if it was a friday but he

wasn't in tomorrow he wasn't in for the

next two days

so he was like come now so obviously

i'll come off the phone

i'm in the hospital holding my son

so like his mom's looked at me and she's

like who was that i was like yeah man

the cds are here but she knows that this

is my thing so this is like

but this is the thing when you make

music you're obsessed bro

you're obsessed so i'm like looking at

my watch like

yeah i'm saying she's like

then she just looks at me and she goes

to go and get the cds man just go and

get the cds i'm like

thank you man

jumped in the car ripped the cred and

picked up a thousand cds

thousands you got them all in the car

thousand all in the car bro thousand

like seats two of us in the car seats

down

cut like a thousand it takes up bare

space as well

got them back

so then like just

put them in the hallway

when i picked them up brought her home

and she was just like you need to get

these out of this house because now

there's a buggy

there's moses basket there's all of this

stuff i'm just like i'm just feeling mad

pressure i'm just like

that was just it was just fun and

exciting man it was like it was like my

life was born

was reborn my son was born i just felt

like a new

energy i was re-energized and i just i

just wanted to go man so it was like

spent the next couple weeks doing the

salem return

so you take them to a shop if they don't

sell them they come back bro and at that

point i don't care about the money bro i

just want to be heard like i want

someone drove past me and they were

playing my cd bro you can't tell me i'm

not jay-z back then when i heard that

and i don't know the person normally you

know them i'm looking i'm like right he

doesn't even notice me he's driving past

me i'm like yeah this is like this is

happening we're growing we're growing so

yeah just re-energize man and sale in

return is long because you're no one

the the shop guy he shows up fool so

he's like yeah we'll take five

i'm like my guy i have a thousand of

these take 50 bro i won't even come back

for the money i swear to you bro like

i'm cool bro he's like nah nah give me

ten

bro you know what i'm doing just to get

rid of them i'll buy the 10 back yeah

and then he'll call me and he'll be like

yeah the 10 went fast you know that'll

make someone else do it doesn't matter

if i don't lie what do you want you want

a 50 now yeah yeah bring the 50 yeah

we've got 50 for you coming so you'd get

a friend to go in and buy this yes you

get what i'm saying so now i can go and

give him 50 that's half a box out bro

this was taking up so much space so yeah

doing that

oxford circus birmingham cried and like

all the music shops and yeah it was

different time in it when you were

running around shot on those cds what

were you doing for money because i'm

sure that wasn't that wasn't covering

the bills right

now me and my my manager he's my manager

now he was just he's always been my

virgin like my right hand we just

every every penny we made from anything

we just put it together and put it in

this and put it in this so it's like

sometimes we'd go back for the sale and

return as well so we'd get a little

drips and drabs there this and that and

just

literally just sharing money it's like

we had one bank account if i'm honest

like it was we're just sharing like

anything

what do we need then we needed to do a

video how much does a video cost 2 500.

whoa

all right cool but now

my um

at the time like my son's mum's like yo

we need

buggy let's say we need a buggy but it's

like i need to do a video it was like i

felt like i was always trying to decide

between a bug or a video yeah bro that

you feel so guilty but you but you know

it made me understand it made me

understand

like the the need and the obsession and

the love i have for this thing because

i'm actually always comparing it like it

sounds mad to hear

me say but it's just when it's your

purpose is your purpose bro every single

month we're growing we're growing we're

growing it's getting bigger and bigger

and bigger and bigger and when it gets

to that point we'll have

how many buggies do you get i'm saying

we have the best car everything it will

be able to spin what you get i'm saying

they'll put the cop will put the baby to

sleep whatever you know what i mean sma

champagne um

so yeah but that was like that was when

i was understanding that you've like

you've actually got some kind of

obsession or

some deep rooted love for this thing

that should probably not be like that

you know what i'm saying like what

you're weighing up against the other

thing it just

but it just was man how long were you in

that phase of like trying to like trying

to give people your cds and like how how

in years or months how long was that

that phase where like people weren't

because i was watching the kanye netflix

yeah documentary recently

it reminded me of that that you got that

young man who believed in himself more

than anyone else did you see that scene

where he plays like bro it

all falls down all falls down and she's

not paying attention she goes on the

phone yeah yeah she's on the phone she's

intentionally trying to tell him to piss

off ignoring

it reminds me of that like

so how long were you in that phase of

your journey just like selling them cds

i think so if this first cd came out

2006 i reckon since like 2003 i'd been

giving out music but what i was always

very clever at like i always wanted

everyone

to like my music so i had different cds

with different songs on so i'd have like

a cd with 10 gram songs

a cd with 10 love songs a cd with five

songs about trying to turn your life

around i just had different cds and what

i'd do

i'd give the cd

to each person as to what i think they

would like

so i give the man name that one but what

was happening is that i gave a man that

and then i gave his sister a different

one but his sister was like yeah but my

brother's got one that's got different

songs on but i'm not i don't think you'd

like that so it was like i was always

just i had music enough music to please

everyone but then everyone wanted the

other songs as well so that kind of made

me decide that you know what if you put

everything on 24 songs then maybe they

can all be centered to this disc and it

can start there and it worked yeah

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2003 2006 you were trying to move them

cds mixtape comes out 2006. yeah but

what

what were you using as metrics to figure

out if it was actually working

bro if if i heard my song on the radio

we was winning

every time i heard it i was like cool

i'm a manager

we are ying and young like i'm all

creative and this guy is ooh

genius in another way so he would be

like i'd go to his house and he'd be

like all right cool we're going to this

show in nottingham

these people are performing when you see

this guy he thinks he knows you yeah

because i've messaged him off your

account and you'd have had a

conversation so just make sure you say

hello to him

i'm just like have you even how do you

even know who's who but he'd already

engineered some idea and

so then we we we were like proper that

the first station to proper

like really show us mad love was like

one extra so it's like dj cameo

ace and veers like all these bras kwame

all these twin b like all these people

were just showing mad love like come in

man do an interview and like i like to

think i'm likable people like to

conversate so with talking and then

this guy would introduce me to a

producer then the producer would

introduce me to

a next person then we found out about

press and pr and started working with a

guy called charlie at visions and he was

like yeah you pay us 500 a month and we

can get you in magazines like right

magazines crazy like it was just like

everything was just

one person away so each person

introduced us to a different person and

that's how i'm

how i was measuring the growth so i'm

like i can come back and i'm like yo man

i just met this guy manny he shoots

videos or i met this guy he does pr i

met this guy he's a photographer like

and she's in her head she's probably

thinking oh shut up yeah like what's the

photographer gonna do but i'm like it's

another step

each step each step each step one hand

is washing the other and we will wash

the whole body i promise you know what i

mean like

in that in that phase you're starting to

get these radio plays and stuff which is

kind of like a sign for you it's that

reinforcement that things you're moving

in the right direction yeah was there

and i'm sure you get asked this a lot

but was there a moment when

even

your partner at the time said to you do

you know what

i think oh you could see it because

sometimes they don't say you can see it

in their face yeah when they hear it on

the radio they see you know yeah i

always knew that i was ticking her off

man

like in that interesting in that not in

everyone in that in that aspect because

even like at them times i used to write

at home

bro i don't know if you've lived with a

musician i've been around a musician bro

that beat is on loop for hours

you get what i'm saying and all i would

hear like when i pull it back is just

like as if you do again and i just was

like you know what i need to just start

working in the studio because this

like it's not fair like it's

when you find your passion here you find

your calling bro you're not fair to no

one you only fear to yourself you know

i'm saying you're not fair to anyone

everyone

everyone comes second bro everyone and

it's not intentional it just it just is

what it is so

me thinking that i'm spending time with

her because i'm writing in the house

even though i'm not talking to her the

song's just on loop and i'm writing i'm

thinking i'm spending time i ain't

spending time

do you i'm saying that's just being

present

so it's like

but then it's like in my head i'm

thinking yeah but if i'm in a studio for

eight hours i'm

at home yeah i'm at home but it's it's

actually all about me bro it was only

all about me my calling

and making this making this music like i

wake up every day i think music before i

go to sleep i think music i used to have

a dream that happened every time

and

in the dream i'm in a studio and i'm

writing a verse

and i'd wake up and i'm like i can never

remember the verse and i'm trying to

remember trying to remember

one day i woke up i'm like i need i had

a pen and paper by my bed i left it

there i wrote out the verse that i wrote

in my dream i was like bro this is like

to me i'm like i'm believing in this now

i'm like this is this has to be

fake or something like this has to be

engineered by someone higher than you

man like from your writing in your sleep

literally

so just

and just going and going and going

i want to get up to the point when you

release black and white in 2011. yeah

what happens between that mixtape coming

out in 2006 to 2011 is that what are the

most significant moments or pivotal

moments where things took a a turn in a

good direction okay like more

more exposure and little things

happening here and there like mtv asked

us to do

something for black history month it was

like a freestyle

that was strong because it showed

people i could write perform stick to

topic

then one extra gave us

an award for getting

i think one of our records was the most

played right so it was like that was

quite cool like most street heat that

was dj centex is that punctuation i

think it's punctuation yeah punctuation

getting a lot more bookings

and

twin b

twin b from one extra um

always having conversations with him

like he just

gave me an understanding

of the game on on the other side because

at the time he was working with at

ministry

and he just had so many gems and he made

me understand because i used to think

like why am i not signed like why was i

not signed why am i not saying i'm not

good or that's not about good or great

it's about

timing and it's about what can a label

help you do how can a label help you be

bigger what do you need to achieve

before you step into a label

so with all these conversations

you know doing loads of collaborations

as well

and then richard antoi and twin b

they form a record label called levels

and they're like we want to sign you man

and i'm like

bro okay like what happens now kind of

thing it's like now you need a lawyer

now you need you know all these other

things and it was just like

once it got to that point

i knew that i was serious because

richard anthony had worked with adele

so many different people do you i'm

saying and i knew that this guy was

serious twin music lover we'd had

endless conversations on the phone about

music

and they had their situation with

ministry of sound so they were like a

subsidiary of ministry of sounds it was

like center levels like

you know and ministry as well

and i just

i just knew that that was the right

thing to do at the time

when you get that news that yeah they

want to sign you

what's ashley saying

do you come home and you're like ah yeah

we've

um

i don't think i do you know

i think i guess by that point

just me being about me the

relationship's not where it it could

have been a way it should have been you

know i mean so i think by that time

we're already

going our separate ways yeah kind of

drifting apart

but um

yes i didn't get to

to kind of have that that thing but i

think

i think she's you know she's happy for

me always been happy for me always one

always knew that this was what i needed

to do

she knew that it was a need and not a

one

because of the things what everything i

was weighing it up against she knew that

this is a need like

this guy needs to do this like he needs

it so yeah

and then black and white and then black

and white yeah so initially we signed

for a single

which was tractor

that was my ringtone that was 2012. yeah

that was my ringtone i don't even know

what phone it was but it was my ringtone

when i first i did one day at university

before i dropped out and that was my my

ringtone from day one my guy yeah we had

that record and twin said to me

when i put the verses down

he was like this song was to change your

life really he said that yeah and i was

like i don't know how you know that but

you're my guy so i'm believing in you

and i'm like

i just didn't know

what would happen next

so i'm still going back to them times

when i'd go to the record shops yeah and

kind of

buy back the cds to give more so when

i'm out in the club if they're playing

the tune

or they're not playing the tune i'm

making sure they play the song you know

i'm saying like i'm saying yeah what

does it take what all the drinks cool a

lot of drinks play that song when the

dreams come

like i'm making sure that this song is

being heard we're trying everything

we're not trying to we're our fingers

always floor to ceiling we'd say we'd

make sure we'd covered everything floor

to ceiling and then yeah bam it goes in

the charts and

literally everything changed

everything changed after that take me

through that process so it goes in the

charts and then you start just what's it

like because i've you know never had a i

never had a hit

bro it's like

you get throughout that week

sort of say like the songs available to

buy on sunday it was back then

so monday morning

like the labels kind of knows the

numbers in it so they're kind of like

your number

eight

i'm like bro number eight they're like

yeah but we'll catch

we'll catch seven and six

maybe five

then the next day it's like yeah you're

number six i'm like what the hell like

and it's just going higher then it gets

to four i think and it goes back to five

and it's like it's five and it's like

right we've got one hold in in in the

top five

and it's just

i don't know i just think at that time

yeah you just

you almost

step into a vehicle and then it just

starts moving

and it's like you know like when you're

driving

through an area you're looking at the

window you're just seeing things and

you're just seeing people and

but you're just moving it just it was

just moving bro like it was just moving

it was moving and then

you're doing glastonbury and then you're

doing

wireless and you're doing v festival

when you're doing everything was just

moving everything was everything

happened so fast that

i don't think i don't think i even

stopped to take it in at that time

and then it and then it was

cool you done it once that was one

single now we want to do an album what's

the next single that's like now you've

got to do it again and it's like i

didn't even really know

how i'd done it in the first place if

i'm honest like you i'm saying it was a

cool song sounded good and it worked and

then it was just like okay make second

single and then made a second single

while making the album and it was just

it was just moving man everything was

just it was it was it happens you know

when they say like

you you wait your whole life or does it

happen overnight literally waited a

whole life was it happened overnight and

it and once it happened it just didn't

stop it just kept the ball kept rolling

man were you prepared for it

mentally

and i don't know socially we prepared

for that train to pick you up and and

drag you off into

your dream like that

i don't think so now but i think luckily

the only thing i wanted to do still at

that time was make music

i think if i wanted

to i can see like how like you know like

a artist has a hit

and then just all over the papers and

just getting involved in different

things i can see how that can happen

temptation right yeah because you end up

in other places

other than where you should be but for

me it was still always about the studio

like i'd go raving but

i'd go raving at one o'clock because the

engineer's tired or the producer's tired

and we finished and

i i don't have the best night's sleep i

don't sleep too well so

it's one o'clock yeah i'd go out but

then tomorrow it was studio like it was

always i was always in and locked in so

i didn't veer from that so i think

in a sense i wasn't prepared for one

side of it but for what i needed to do i

was prepared for and i was serious about

my half my half of the deal yeah

and then so that album becomes a huge

success um a real breakthrough moment

for you

um

and then obviously when the album's done

you have another pressure right which is

the expectation of that album right

bro

go again do you what i'm saying like

flip a coin

10 times

and get heads yeah all right cool now do

another 10. do you know what i'm saying

it's literally like how am i gonna

yeah get heads every time every time i'm

saying get heads go and do it well

you've done it do it go

for me like

making music is the part that i'm in

control of

i never feel pressured about that never

because i have i have what i have to say

i feel what i feel

and i'm gonna pour all of that into

music i'm going to put all of that into

that album no problem

i just think at that time what

what was getting tricky was

ministry was kind of happy

that we'd had three top five singles and

was kind of just

you know more as a business more happy

to stay in that domain like yeah let's

just turn out the hits

and i think

after

black and white and all of that and all

the things like

you know just

i think i had a lot of frustration in me

and

and and it was it was almost

it's almost the side of my life which i

i saw my uncle and my dad and all of

that talking about the police like that

side of me was coming out whereas i'd

always mention it in my music i just

felt

like i

i wanted i i had something else to say

you know i'm saying everything happened

with mark duggar and all of that and i

was like i need to speak about

what's going on and and i think

it was it was a bit of a difference of

opinion you know i'm saying ministry of

sound wanted these kind of songs ain't

hit record so it was a bit of

a bit of friction so we had to work our

way

you know around that and it was just

about

you know getting to the point where we

could release that album which was

growing over life and it was just

for me it was

it was it was important that i released

that record man

and and following black and white when

you look back on how you reacted and you

know that tension with the label and

stuff like that

in your maturity and wisdom now

is there do you wish you'd behaved

differently following the the release of

that album and its success is there

something you wish you would

you know

in with the wonder of high school yeah

yeah change nah

nah because i wasn't like

i wasn't aggressive i just like to

understand i like clarity

and i think what what can happen in an

industry is

not everybody wants to be crystal clear

whereas it's like if if you're crystal

clear with it and say you know what if

we can get another don't go

and another tractor and another blackout

then

whatever so it's like all right cool

then you understand an assignment of

what you're after but it's like if

you're not being crystal clear then it

kind of leaves you in limbo so you're

sending in songs

and it's just like

and they're not being clear about what

yes the feedback's a bit like

don't think this one's a single fact say

it was a single sister it was a song

that kind of thing you know what i mean

so it's like

yeah just trying to gain understanding i

think that was what my frustration was

was like just getting understand but

twin b obviously twin being richard and

always kept it 100 always was just like

look

if we can have if there's any moments

where we can i think they're like you

need to say what you need to say in it

you know what i'm saying and

if their other moments arise we'll find

them and you'll engineer them you're the

best at doing that you know when you're

comfortable to do it you do it i'm

saying ain't no pressure come in from

our way and i came up with six words

which was um

written within that

within that space and within that time

and i was like all right cool i've got

one the one you want

is the one you want kind of thing um

so yeah but i think with hindsight i

didn't like i didn't fly off the handle

i didn't

i didn't i didn't get angry i'm not i

didn't get aggressive it was pointless

did you stray away from your like your

principal passion of making music during

that phase did you did you find yourself

like not showing up obsessed in the

studio in the same way after that hit

because sometimes when people reach the

mountaintop they they lose a bit of

orientation and motivation sometimes and

you know there's other temptations now

you've got better money so you don't

need to be

the hunger's slightly different

no no

no love it like i think

for me

always wanting to be the best rapper

always wanting to say the sickest things

the things that people are like how did

you get to that i'm saying like

so that that never left me so like there

was always

freestyles there was always

you know always raps always versus you

know collaborations like at the time

like my manager zeon used to say to me

like he's just like bro sometimes you've

got to make something make sense like

these people are asking you for a

feature they want to pay you 20 bags of

us or 10 bucks a verse and you're saying

no

and your bridging around the corner is

rapping you're giving reverse for free

like we've got a i'm not saying don't do

the verse for free but i'm saying

i'm saying there's some over here that

make that verse make sense as well so

it's like also as well navigation and

just being like oh yeah yeah

you're right kind of thing and just some

things work well for positioning you

know i mean

as well but just always yeah just always

wanting to be the best

artist man just always wanting to have

the best album i think that's

something that's never left me and i

think if that does leave you

as an artist

that's probably when it's like you know

like when you see mike tyson in the ring

at the end

and he's fighting some guy you haven't

heard of

and he's just mashing him up and you're

just like mike man

do you i'm saying like mike five years

ago you would have finished him but he's

like

mike's not mike

do you know what i'm saying mike got

that

that same one you don't love it anymore

do you know what i'm saying the love's

gone you can see it in his eyes and i

feel like

if that happens to you as a musician

it's yeah it's not it's not good to kind

of like mess up your legacy man like one

of the things that's always made you

stand out even when i listen to your

fire in the booth and i listen to all of

them i have them on replay i actually

played one last night to my girlfriend i

was like right she's coming

i played uh the one you did with is it

yeah i played that one a lot

is the subject matter of what you write

about is isn't about

buying rolexes and fast cars

now

as a young black man myself um

i

tend to feel a sense of disappointment

when i go on instagram and i see like

the new school of like hip-hop artists

all putting their hands in and showing

their roles because for me

it's like leading

um

our people astray in the sense because i

would like them to show their investment

portfolio or their

the the equity they have in businesses

and stuff because

like

you know um what's your stance on that i

actually was gonna put some stuff on my

story the other day because i saw

i don't wanna name names because it's

not about individuals it's about a

culture um i saw some rappers that

actually follow me some big big hip-hop

uk rappers that follow me

all like showing off the material things

that really disappoints me because i

know there's thousands in this case

there's

800 000 people that follow this guy

and

they're now gonna aspire to buy gucci

before they invest their money or put it

away what's your thoughts on this i

think we've

growing up here i think like we were so

like bedazzled by

the american

rap culture

and we'd always seen them have things

have jewelry have all these things and

whatever and i think even myself at a

point

for me that was like a trophy or a

measure of success

do you know what i'm saying it's like

the rolex was a measure of success and i

and i think like like i've heard you say

yourself as well it's like once you get

it

it's like

it doesn't really make you feel

inside yeah it doesn't really give you

nothing like that and i think we haven't

had

we haven't had the luxury of

of information

and i think

information comes from people who look

like you and people who have been

through it had success and are able to

tell you so now i'm in that position i'm

able to talk to her 18 year old

and be like yeah man you can get that

but at the same time make sure you've

got that

one of the dumbest things i'd ever done

in my life i don't think i've said this

anyway is

so obviously when i

um my mom's got a council flat

bro when i signed my deal i left my

house i left the whole house and just

went left the council i left just left

it

but people at the time were saying to me

yo man

buy it like why don't you buy it and i'm

like i don't i'm not going to live here

like it was in tottenham i'm like i'm

not going to leave here i'm going to

yeah i'm saying no like no you don't

just buy it but the people that were

telling me to buy it didn't own a house

so i'm like what do you know yeah what

do you know that i live in

princess park manor do you know what i'm

saying now like this is gated community

like this is way better than this bro

that was a very stupid mistake i should

have bought that that would be my first

one on the ladder do you know what i'm

saying they give you a discount bloody

bloody blood whatever

but

even though i had the information

it wasn't coming from

a success story it wasn't coming from

someone that had done it before

do you get what i'm saying so now i'm

the first one that's like yo

where are you going to rent like

think about what you're doing because

then even myself like i wasn't even in

princess part mana forever

and even in there like i wasn't ever

like thinking about buying property

and they were like don't you want to buy

the one that you're in i was like nah

i'm not going to be here forever like in

in my eyes property was

you buy to live not buy to let and you

can't move yeah i'm saying in my head

i'm thinking no i'm going to buy where

i'm going to live but i'm like i never

really

understood that no you can buy and move

and just own it and then rent it

yourself you know what i'm saying i

didn't really understand

the principle of that

so um

i understand

i understand why it happens i understand

why

we we want all these trophies i get it

but i think it's it's about

people like myself

who can now conversate with the with the

young a lot and be like look man like i

get it it looks nice

but bro like this music is game of

thrones bro

music is game you see game of thrones

they killed the main character bro do

you want they don't mind doing that

music is game of thrones bro you're

michael jackson on monday your t.o

jackson on tuesday bro like and then you

can be michael again by sunday you get

i'm saying like the mute it's musical

chairs bro like you have to understand

we're not

always going to be number one forever so

just make sure

you're buying a foundation for your

foundation man

yeah when you had you know your first

big breakthrough moment at the time did

you

somewhere in your mind think that this

was

meant that you would be number one

forever is there a part of you that goes

oh we've done it now in terms of like

now i know the the uh the equation

yeah a bit of complacency maybe

i kind of think like the more you

understand because obviously but at that

time there's a

there's a route to get to number one and

it's like

your song's launched

by mr jam or annie mack

and then

the pre-order's out

and then you go for playlisting on radio

one one extra capital and there's like a

there's a route that puts you

on the pitch

do you get what i'm saying attention to

it yeah to get it so there's all the

steps so

but the problem is

you can't believe in the route

more than you believe in the fruit

so you can't think that

this root can work with whatever fruit

you give it do you get i'm saying you

still

still has to be an apple bro

like it still has to be fruitful it

still has to be a record a sick record

you get what i'm saying so then

you know you you like we've had some

records that i thought yeah like there's

one or two that i thought like the root

can carry it and then when the root

don't carry it you realize like that

this

is not work every time you don't once

again you don't

you don't just

you don't get 10 heads in a row bro you

get i'm saying you get toes one time and

then it's and then it's how you bounce

back from that have you had to talk to

me about bouncing back from that then

because

you know

even as a fan of yours like i'll play

i'll play records of yours when they

drop and i'll be like i'll say it say to

my boys i'm like we got this little chat

on whatsapp i'll say this one is a

[ __ ] like this was um i'm like this

one's gonna be right and then it might

not get there and another one might you

must have that all the time and how do

you manage the expectation of like

building creating a project

you believing that it's x y and z i mean

i do that with these podcasts as well

you just never know and which episode's

going to bang right

and then putting it out there

and that bit being out of your control

how does that feel like and if you had

moments like that when you've created

something and put out there you go what

you have to understand that that's the

side that we're not in control of

do you get i'm saying like

and as an artist just

make it for you

make it for you put your best foot

forward but make it for you

because

if i make a song

that i think is rubbish but i think

everyone's gonna like yeah and i put a

song out everybody likes it it goes to

number one

i now have to perform this song

this song is in my discography this is

in my catalogue like

my

great-great-great-grandkids are going to

hear this song see i'm saying and not

even i've had a conversation with me

that's going to be their representation

of their great great great great great

grandfather

be proud of your art man

do you get what i'm saying be proud of

it so for me it's like

i put my blood

sweat tears and skin in my album when it

comes out if they like it

if they don't like it

what can i i can't i can't do anything

more than i done and i and i put my best

foot forward and i think

you have to live by that man because you

either

you you either have the hit that you

don't like

or you put out the record that you don't

like and it's not a hit

so now you've got

now you're wrestling back to get back to

where you was for something you didn't

even like anyway

do you get i'm saying just put your best

foot forward man and stay true to

yourself yeah stay true to yourself man

because it's your this is your legacy

like me now

i try and look at my

like it all made sense to me when i

started

seeing my career from the end till

today

and i'm like

what what

what navigates me is will i be happy

with this at the end

so i make a song today and i'm listening

to the tune and i'm like

will i be happy with this at the end

can work for today then but if i feel

like at the end i might feel like oh

i don't think you should have put that

one out it's not worth it

it's not worth it it's not worth it bro

oh yeah what we get what we got how many

we get 80 years maybe now whatever you

like your legacy can

can triple that bro do you what i'm

saying like have the right one have the

right one you've got you're in control

of that that's what you are in control

of and you've had a taste of the like

the empty nature of like fame and like

people writing about you every single

second and people running up and falling

and all this stuff you've tasted that so

what what have you learned about

what that means being on dragons then

now i get it a little bit more so i get

people coming up to me and stuff and i'm

in the early stages of like figuring out

what it means to you know like have

daily mail reporters standing outside

the house here and taking photos of

being my girlfriend when we walk out and

i'm trying to understand what this

attention means is it something i can

use does it make me feel good what is it

it it didn't make me feel good man

i didn't that's one thing i've i've

always

wanted to be in the shadows like i've

always not wanted that part of it some

people understand how to use it though

do you get i'm saying because say for

example you're

you're designing clothing

and it's like every time they shoot you

they're putting it in a magazine i'm

saying like you're being

you're being mass exposed and your

clothing is being mass exposed but it's

like if you don't have

if you don't wish for that if you don't

desire for that

then it's like i feel like it's

it was useless for me being

in the front of certain magazines for

for nothing like nothing artistic

do you i mean i know people say like

any publicity is good publicity i'm like

sometimes you can just be

famous for nothing and no one wants to

be the guy that's like

the most famous person in the world and

no money

do you know what i mean or like not not

and i don't say money like to be rich i

just mean like

everyone knows who you are and

everywhere you're walking you're

stopping and he's having a conversation

taking a picture taking it taking it out

taking it out but like your thing's not

in order like you're not going to feel

good being that person

so like i just yeah i never i never

really liked it man i never liked it man

i was the one i was hiding from the

patch man all the time in your comment

but did you ever experience what they

call like imposter syndrome walking into

rooms and feeling like what the [ __ ] am

i doing here or

being in situations and going like i

don't know if i deserve this that voice

inside

for a shoot period of time but you know

who made me overcome that richard entomy

like he passed away but this he's such a

champion this guy

would walk he walks into any meeting

fearlessly

any like you could be sitting down with

the head of hmv or d and he's going to

tell them yeah you need to take twenty

thousand of our cds and did it and

you're just like

right like you're just

like he made me feel like

you're you bro

like you're gold you're the gold as well

you know you're gold bro like don't now

walk into that room and because you

think everything in here is is gold

becomes silver no no i'm cold as well

i'm saying and i think

being around him and then that drip down

to my manager zeon as well and he's got

that thing as well where

bro we were like we were having like i

remember i remember we were um

we done a thing with lukaszade where

they put us on like on the balls yeah on

the bottles yeah and i remember like i

was sitting down and we were like

tapping each other so like yeah what do

you want to put on the bottles like yeah

man

you want to put our estate

on but i'm thinking they're going to say

no but they're like yeah yeah that would

be sick like yeah picture of our state

yeah yeah what else

yeah man and this and that and i

realized i was like you can get

the things that you think you can't get

you can get like you are the gold as

well there's a reason why lucas aide

want to partner up with retreats you

know what i'm saying like there's a

reason

and it's like sometimes we think it's

they're so big they don't

but any it's a it's a two-way thing it's

a two-way street so i think

yeah for a short period of time i did

but then

like zeon

richard twin like they just they just

made me understand the importance of

like knowing your worth yeah knowing

your worth and just being fearless man

just walking into any room as me

like and and

like i did feel that as well at certain

times because obviously now we see the

festival lineups like wireless and all

that like you see miss banks you see

stef london you see

gets you see gigs you see you see so

many names 2011 it wasn't like that bro

you see tiny

might see chip she rich do you get i'm

saying it was like or certain festivals

i'm the only representative of this

genre

so it's like when you're stepping into

that

like then you're feeling like if i mess

up like if i even forget one line of my

lyric they ain't booking no one next

year do you get what i'm saying so it's

like then

you've got this thing where it's like

the fights on where you're fighting for

the scene you know i mean and you've got

to wear it like a badger honor i

remember like

doing glastonbury and like

the guy who

like books the tent like standing on the

side or whatever i can't remember what

facebook was but it was standing on the

side like it's asking me bare questions

like why do you have two drummers

it's just like

bro i've got electronic sounds on my

album he plays electric he plays

acoustic like so the the music's gonna

sound exactly like the record oh how

come you

set a stage up like this how come how

come like so many questions that i don't

feel like he was asking anyone else he

just wanted to check if we knew what we

was doing

and at that point to be fair not

everyone's shooting in the dark

i'm saying everyone's we're all guessing

bro at that point we're all shooting in

the dark just don't be the casualty

don't be the one that gets hit that was

that was the theory so um

[Music]

yeah we just

felt our way through but them times i

did used to feel a little thing but then

afterwards i was like nah man i'm coming

like we're coming we've got stuff to add

i've got hit records as well they want

to hear us

and then the festival lineup needs to be

more diverse like we're ten years after

that now and the festival lineup is more

diverse but i do feel like at that time

if tiny temple wasn't turning up or chip

wasn't doing what he had to do even

professor green wasn't doing what he had

to do i mean

she had to do what he had we had to get

it right and we had to or we i don't

know if we'd be here today when you come

from the estate like you do

and you end up in these like boardrooms

and these fancy meetings with these you

know

rich white men in suits

um

what i see in a lot of like young

young people from those those kind of

backgrounds is they kind of walk through

life with a bit of a

an expectation that the cards are

stacked against them yeah and i i worry

sometimes that that belief

whether it's true or false it is often

true

the belief that the cards are stacked

against you

can be

equally or more harmful than the cards

actually being stacked against you yeah

do you know what i mean yeah the belief

of the cosmetics against you can be the

deterrent of you even playing the game

exactly do you know what i'm saying i

don't even want to deal now like don't

do me anything there's no point i'm

going to lose anyway

you know what i'm saying but

i don't know what that comes from but i

was fortunate man like i can't i can't

say it enough like richard anthony

like just

just a g he was a lawyer he was a lawyer

as well a music lawyer so he

he understood that side as well so he

could he could speak whatever language

do you get what i'm saying at any table

he could like if they started talking

about split some points he can he can go

there with you do you i'm saying so when

you're

walking into a game with that bro you're

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