We don't teach leaders how to have

uncomfortable conversations. We don't

teach students how to have uncomfortable

conversations. You tell me which is

going to be more valuable for the rest

of your life. How to have a difficult

conversation or trigonometry? Described

as a visionary thinker with a rare

intellect.

Multiple time best-selling author Simon

Sinek Every single one of us knows what

we do. Some of us know how we do it, but

very very few of us can clearly

articulate why we do what we do. And I

think one of the reasons most of us

don't know who we are is because we're

making decisions that are inconsistent

with that true cause, with that why.

There's a great irony in in all of this.

I had what a lot of people would be

considered a good life and yet didn't

want to wake up and go to work anymore.

Why?

I

We cannot do this thing called career or

life alone. We're just not that smart,

we're not that strong, we're just not

that good. For anyone who wants to be a

better version of themselves, purpose

comes from

It's one of the best podcast I've ever

done.

So without further ado,

I'm Steven Bartlett and this is The

Diary of a CEO USA Edition. I hope

nobody's listening,

but if you are,

then please keep this to yourself.

Simon,

my introduction to you was this book

Start With Why and it hung on the walls

of some of my offices around the world

for a long time and then my employees

would come in after reading the book and

evangelize about it and come up in

meetings and in discussions and in

creative brainstorms etc. over and over

and over again.

The question I wanted to ask you was

was there a point in your life where

you'd felt

like you drifted so far from your why

that you realized the importance of it

for the first time?

Well, the simple answer is yes. Um it

was that drifting that set me on the

path to find it in the first place, to

to to even articulate that idea.

I had what a lot of people would be

considered

sort of a good life. I was living the

proverbial American dream. You know, I

quit my job to start my own business.

The business was doing okay, made an

okay living, had great clients, did good

work.

And yet I'd lost my passion for that and

didn't want to wake up and go to go to

work anymore.

Which was embarrassing because

superficially everything was just fine.

I was pretending that I was happier,

more in control, and more successful

than I was or felt.

Um which is quite frankly pretty

draining and pretty dark.

And it wasn't until a very very close

friend of mine came to me and said,

"Something's wrong." She was the first

one to notice something.

And I came clean. And I sort of let it

all out. And uh

it was that catharsis that sort of

lifted this heavy weight off my

shoulders. I was no longer alone, it was

no longer a secret.

Um and all of the energy that was

previously going into lying, hiding, and

faking now went into finding a solution.

There was a confluence of events. It's

not, you know, all of these histories

are perfectly neat and clean and that's

not really how it is or was,

but to compress it and make and

oversimplify it, I made this discovery

based on the biology of human

decision-making that every single one of

us knows what we do.

Some of us know how we do it, but very

very few of us can clearly articulate

why we do what we do. And I realized

that was what I was missing. So to

answer your your question, yes, 100%.

The realization of the why was my loss

of it.

And I realized I knew what I did and I

was good at it. I knew how I was

different or special or stood out from

the crowd and that was my

differentiating value proposition and I

was articulate about it. But I couldn't

tell you why I was waking up in bed

every day to do it, you know, and I

would give some nonsense entrepreneur

answer cuz I want to be my own boss. I'm

like, "Yeah, sure, but that's not a

reason to get out of bed every day."

This got me thinking a lot about the

guests that I have sit here and also my

own story where

sometimes

I think people's why or the thing that's

been driving them is in fact some kind

of trauma or insecurity.

I think cuz you sit here with people and

they're whether it's

Israel Adesanya, the UFC champion, who's

cuz the current

maybe world's best UFC fighter, he was

battered and bullied as a kid being the

only black kid in his school in New

Zealand and so it's no coincidence that

he strived to be this fighter and in

fact when he won the UFC title the next

day he was he was depressed and he went

to therapy.

That's made me question whether like our

whys can sometimes be trauma or

insecurity driven as opposed to being

intentional and I don't know.

So a why is fully formed by the time

we're in our

mid to late teens. The youngest person

I've done a why discovery for was 16 and

it worked. The process worked.

Um and what I've learned from just doing

hundreds of these over the years is that

a why is always positive. It's always

striving for something. So like we're

not inspired against something, we're

not inspired to stop something, we're

inspired to build something or create

something or advance something.

Um though it may have been born out of

trauma,

there's usually a silver lining that

gives us that cause. Especially trauma

that happens in the middle of our lives,

you know, September 11th is often looked

to as, you know, people found purpose.

You know, we are who we are.

Like I said, we're fully formed by the

experiences we have when we're young,

you know, at a pretty young age.

And now the opportunity life presents us

is to make decisions that either keeps

us in balance with who we really are or

not. And I think one of the reasons most

of us feel discomfort or don't feel

ourselves or don't know who we are is

because we're making decisions that are

inconsistent with that true cause, with

that why. So you raise

the case of

um individual athletes who become

champions and then suffer depression.

Fairly common story. You hear this from

Olympians. You know, Michael Phelps

becomes the most medaled, you know, uh

Olympian of all time, immediately

suffers depression. Andre Agassi becomes

the most storied, you know, tennis

player of all time, immediately becomes

depressed.

And

what I've learned from talking to some

of these

um

these particularly athletes,

but I think it happens in the business

world as well, which is from a very

young age

they set themselves a goal that

in my words would be a very selfish

goal.

I want to be the best at X, the best

tennis player, the best golfer, the best

whatever. And, you know, the way

Olympians put it, which I get a kick out

of is, "I want to win the Olympics."

Like, "Well,

no one wins the Olympics. Like you can

be a winner in your sport, you know?"

But

that's an aside. But and and their

entire lives from pretty young ages,

every decision they're making

is to help them advance this finite

goal.

And all of their relationships

are, "Can you help me achieve my goal?"

Right? And if you can no longer help me

achieve my goal, I don't need you

anymore as a coach

or even a friend.

And there's huge sacrifices, missing of

birthdays, missing of Christmases, you

know, missing of major life uh events

because I have to practice so I can

achieve my goal. And when they get

interviewed on the news,

you know, or at the Olympics or

whatever, you know, "Why do you do it?"

And they'll say, "Well, I'm doing it to

inspire the little kids." Which is

complete [ __ ] You know, if you look

at all of their

uh vision boards from when they were

younger of pictures of podiums and

medals and money and Lamborghinis, not a

single little child on there of the

people you're doing it for. It's it's

just a lucky strike extra. I mean,

absolutely you do inspire children, but

that's not the reason you did it. You

just got that, you know, like I said,

it's sort of a it's a twofer.

And and then when they achieve or don't

achieve this thing and then can no

longer compete for it,

um

they've set their entire path and all

their relationships on this one these

finite selfish goals and so when it's

complete, they realize they don't really

have a lot of friends around them. They

don't really have a lot of close

relationships. They don't really even

have a sense of purpose because they've

been spent the past 20 years or so with

one purpose, which was this finite goal,

which now has run out.

And so they're very purposeless.

And I see this in Broadway performers

who set their whole life to be on the

West End or be on Broadway.

You know, every class, every tap dancing

class, every singing class, they make

it, they get there, and then

depression or at least malaise.

Or senior executives, same thing. If I

just or if I just make a million

dollars, you know, if I just become a

millionaire,

then I'll feel.

And uh and the problem with all of those

things is, as I said before, they are

selfish.

Uh it is your goal for your reasons,

which um is not fulfilling for any

social animal, for any human being.

You know, our sense of joy and

fulfillment and love and purpose comes

from our ability to serve another human

being. Have a child, tell me how your

life changes. Fall in love, tell me how

your life changes. You know, think about

all the stupid things, irrational things

we've done for love. We get on planes

and travel around the world just to say

I love you. You know, we do ridiculous

things and it all feels worth it.

And the sacrifices we make for a child

all feel worth it, but these are no

longer for us and these things will live

on beyond our own lives. They are not

finite, they are infinite.

And there's nothing wrong with personal

achievement, there's nothing wrong with

setting goals,

but it has to be in the context of

something even bigger.

In general,

team sports don't suffer this because

you had to do it together. You know,

it's usually individual athletes who

suffer this more often.

And so there there is a There's one of

the athletes I would point to is a guy

by the name of Curtis Martin. Curtis is

a Hall of Fame NFL footballer.

And he only started playing football

basically to stay out of trouble.

He did it as a favor to his mom just so

he wouldn't get into He grew up in a

really bad neighborhood in Philadelphia.

It basically kept him out of trouble and

turns out he was really good at it. And

when he realized he was good at it, he

realized that by being good at

something, it will give him the power to

actually give back later.

And it he made this realization

especially when he went to college on

scholarship and then made it to the NFL.

He realized the better he was at the

sport, it wasn't about propelling his

own career. It was about when he leaves

this career, he has a platform that

would be bigger than the platform he has

now. And so he was driven and driven and

driven not so that he could be the best,

not that so that he could make the most

money. In fact, he made a lot less money

than a lot of other players of his rank.

Not that he could

be rich or famous or any of these

things. He did it so that he could build

his platform so that he could give back

later. So when he retired from the NFL,

he wasn't lost. He wasn't searching. He

he knew exactly what the next step was

because being in being an elite athlete

to the highest level possible was only

step one.

Um and to see one's life as a continuum

rather than a than a than an event

um is much healthier.

On that point of seeing one's life as a

continuum. By the way, you completely

You call it atting someone where you

describe their situation, but you

completely atted me. You completely

described my situation in terms of the

place of mind I was in at 25 when I had

that offer to buy my company. It was

about me. It was about filling some void

that I had in me from being like the

only black kid in an all white school

and thinking that I think success and

accolades would fill that void in some

ways. But on that point of a continuum

as a as a way to live your life. The

other moment in my life where I which I

really struggled in in terms of goal

setting and motivation was when I was

trying to get in shape. And then like

2017, I said to myself, I want to get a

six-pack for summer. That's the goal I

set myself.

Really, what I was trying to find a way

to stay fit forever. But I set myself

this goal of getting a six-pack in

summer. That was my thing. And then

every single year, my motivation would

only last for like four or five months

and I couldn't crack how people are

continually motivated to act.

I've cracked it now. But what was wrong

about that cuz I just heard you speak

about arbitrary goals before. What is

the the flaw of creating arbitrary goals

in our lives and how do we create goals

that are more based on that idea of a

continuum?

You know, I I I'm not a huge fan of the

the term self-improvement, right?

Um but I do like the idea of awareness,

self-awareness.

You know, we all live with blind spots.

We all live with missing gaps and pieces

of information, which will by the way

last for the rest of our lives. And

there are some people who choose to live

a life where living with those gaps is

acceptable and they never fill them in

and we would say that they remain

stagnant.

And arguably either mentally or

physically unhealthy

or ga- gaining, you know, getting

unhealthier as they get older, you know?

For someone for anyone who

who wants to be a better version of

themselves, a more aware version of

themselves, you you

we I seek out

information.

And that comes in all kinds of forms,

right? It can be in a relationship.

Um so for example, I went and took a

listening class.

I should I should prefa- preface with um

I was dating someone and she accused me

of being a bad listener.

And I was like,

you do know what I do for a living,

right? Like I'm a really good listener.

So I don't know what you're talking

about, you know?

And then I took this listening class.

Turns out I'm an absolutely brilliant

listener

with people who I'll never see again for

the rest of my life. But amongst my

friends and family,

appalling.

Appalling.

So I had this basic skillset that I

never applied

with the people closest to me and gave

myself an out because quote unquote I

knew how to listen.

Um and so I realized I was a terrible

listener. This was a blind spot. This

was a gap. And having somebody love me

tell me that didn't work.

Didn't believe them

until, you know, this objective outsider

or at least I just took this class and

came to this realization.

That was brilliant. That awareness of

the blind spot and the awareness of the

skills that I need to be a better

brother, son, boyfriend, friend, you

know?

I had to learn how to hold space for

someone.

And then practice.

Um that's awareness.

And I think our health is awareness.

Unfortunately,

some people wait for the

breakup to learn that they're bad

listeners. Some people wait for the

heart attack to realize they're eating

poorly. You know, that's awareness. You

get awareness by getting a punch in the

face. And I think I think it's a

responsibility for every human being

should they want to have value in the

lives of others

to seek awareness in how they show up in

the world and and how the world impacts

them, their mental health, their

physical health, their ability to

maintain relationships and nurture

relationships.

And you hear me what you I mean, you'll

hear me say this over again. It's a sort

of

It'll It's a repeating pattern, which is

for those who want to show up better in

the lives of others,

which is I see being healthy as a

service to others.

I see being a better listener being a

service. I see everything in terms of

service to others. There are benefits to

you as well, of course.

But I I think we've neglected for

decades

the the socialness of our of our animal.

And social media and cell phones and and

the

and the ubiquity of those technologies

have complicated our ability to be

human.

Um There are others who comment on this

as well. Brené Brown talks about this

where we have a young generation that

has mistaken vulnerability and

broadcast.

Right? Where you sit in your room by

yourself,

put your phone on record,

and make a video of yourself crying

because of the loss of a relationship

and then posting that on Instagram or

Snapchat or YouTube or

TikTok or whatever your

media of choice is, and the hashtag is

just being vulnerable.

Right? And there is nothing vulnerable

about that. You were by yourself

broadcasting to the world, live or

videoed, it doesn't matter.

Do that exact same thing with the person

you hurt.

That is way more difficult.

Don't leave a voice memo saying, "Hey,

I'm really sorry. Just taking

accountability." Call them or go visit

them and look them in the eye and say

that exact same sentence that you just

left a voice memo for. That's

vulnerability. That's really hard and

requires practice and we avoid it

because it's difficult. We avoid it

because it's uncomfortable. We choose

broadcast not because it's better, it's

because it's easier.

And then mistake the two.

And so

the reason to learn to be vulnerable is

not for ourselves, it's for our service

to others. And I talk about this all the

time, which we've confused these things.

And once again, going back to what we

were talking about before, we've weirdly

taken these very prosocial activities

and made them selfish. Like go us.

Uh my my biggest pet I'll give you my

biggest pet peeve and I've talked about

this one before, but it drives me nuts.

I was at this meet I was in this meeting

once and there was a a woman next to me

who was this big time yoga instructor,

apparently.

And the entire meeting was a was a big

group of us. She was on her phone under

the under the desk, under the table.

And I sort of sneaked over a look and

it's not like she was like there was a

family member in hospital and she wanted

to just, you know, stay in touch. She

was on social media, I could see. Right?

And at one point the conversation at the

table turned to being present.

And she popped up her head and said,

"That's why I love yoga cuz it helps me

be present."

Of which I'm thinking, "You're an

idiot." You know?

And I started to realize we've confused

things here, which is

we don't get to decide when we're

present. We get to practice being

present. But you actually are not

present until someone else says you are.

You know, you don't get to sit with a

friend and be like, "I feel present." If

they don't feel it. That's like me

saying I'm a great listener except I'm

not.

Right? I don't get to self-assign these

accolades, especially when they're

social. They can only be assigned by

another. And so for anyone who's ever

practiced meditation, there are

absolutely benefits to us without a

doubt. And it is Those are important

mental and physical health benefits of

meditation and mindfulness and we should

practice those for sure.

But there's also that what I think is

the primary reason, some would consider

secondary reason,

which is if you practice meditation for

example, you learn to focus on one

thing, your mantra, a sound, whatever it

is. You learn to your breath, you learn

to You don't Nobody You don't think of

nothing. You think of one thing. Focus

on one thing, right? And if something

interrupts that thing, you have a

thought.

Did I leave the washing machine on? You

know?

You label it a thought and you push it

out of your head and you say, "I'll deal

with it later." And that's the whole the

whole idea is total focus and the

ability to put your thoughts out of your

head to stay focused on this one thing.

Now think about when you're sitting

listening with a friend who's going

through a hard time.

Are you listening or you waiting for

your turn to speak?

Right? The whole meditation practice

that you've been doing is now valuable

in this moment where you're focused

entirely on what they're saying to you.

Every distraction, every screech of a

car tire outside, everybody who's

talking around you, you don't hear any

of it. You only hear what they're saying

to you. You're entirely focused on what

they're saying to you. And when you have

your own thoughts of advice you'd like

to give or things you want to tell them

oh my god me too that happened to me as

well, right? You say nope, that's not

important in this moment and you put it

out of your head and deal with it later.

And at the end of that conversation your

friend will say, "Thank you. I feel

heard." Or "Thank you for being there

for me." Or "Thank you for holding space

for me." Or "Thank you for listening."

And those are all

uh indications that congratulations

you've been present for another.

And I think what gives our lives purpose

is not to wake up every morning to learn

meditation so that we can be present for

ourselves, though that is valuable.

What gives our lives purpose is to do

these things for another.

There's nothing wrong with doing things

and enjoying the benefit of those things

yourself by all means.

But the sense of the deep feeling sense

of purpose and meaning to one's life or

to one's work only comes when those

things are for another. And in my view,

primarily for another where our benefit

is secondary.

You can't have equal. There's no such

thing as equal because at one point one

of those things will have to be

sacrificed for the other. And do you

sacrifice your spouse's love so that you

can stay in love or do you sacrifice

your comfort? Do you sacrifice your

girlfriend, boyfriend, spouse's

comfort so that you can be better or do

you sacrifice your comfort so they can

feel better? That's an obvious it's

obvious. Well, it's the same here.

It's the same analogy.

Which is I choose to sacrifice my my

happiness, my joy, my comfort, my

Lamborghini

in this moment, not forever, but in this

moment for you.

For you, my employee. For you, my

friend.

You know?

Um I will delay so that you can have.

And that's where the joy and love of

business, relationships, friendships

come from.

You know? There's a great irony in it in

all of this, which is to sacrifice for

another it really is the most beautiful

thing we can ever do. I mean that's kind

of what love is. It's sacrificing for

another.

Um and all of these things, whether it's

you

learning to be a better communicator,

learning mindfulness and meditation,

being in shape. If you can translate

those things in for another

it all of those things start to have a a

higher purpose.

In the case of health, doing it for

another, you're saying that it would be

so that I can be here longer for my

family would be a much more joyful if I

had children for example. Sure.

As long as it's real. Mhm. It can't be

generic. Right.

It can't you just can't you can't just

put it out there just so it's fills the

you know

Mad Libs and you fill the gap. You know,

it's got to you got to actually feel it

that that that actually is the purpose.

I'll give you one then. So part of I do

think about this and I thought about

this last night when I was in the gym

was in part I think I work out because I

want to be healthy and in shape for my

for my girlfriend. Like I want to be I

want our relationship to be good. I want

us to be able to be active together. I

want her to be attracted by me when I'm

naked. You know, like

and I I I had a debate with my team as

to like whether that's a noble reason to

work out. And should we have a feel an

obligation or whatever to be in shape

for our other half?

I think to be healthy for our other half

for sure.

you think the aesthetic stuff is a bit I

think it's fine. I mean I think the

aesthetic stuff is about confidence,

right? Which is I'm sure she'll love you

even if you're chubby. You know, I'm

sure she'll love you even if you don't

have a six pack. You know? But if it

makes you feel confident then

it's like people have nose jobs, you

know? Like somebody says you can't have

a nose job. Why are you Well, if it

makes them feel better about themselves

then

how can we argue with it? Like if they

if they went from being really really

insecure and hiding their faces or bad

teeth and they never wanted to smile to

fixing their teeth and now they smile

all the time Mhm. Like why why should we

tell them they can't? Now, of course

there's a line. Getting addicted to

plastic surgery is something different.

And there is a line. But you know,

getting your teeth done or getting a

nose job to make yourself feel better is

it's fine if it builds your confidence.

So if it builds your confidence and then

and it's a and you're doing it in a

healthy way Mhm. you know? Then you

know, it's like how can somebody argue

that you shouldn't be exercising cuz it

looks at Now again, there is a line.

There are some people who actually

overdo it where if they stop exercising

and they gain a tiny bit of weight they

actually spiral. Mhm. There is a line

where they're actually not building

confidence they're actually building

insecurity. Mhm. But some of these

things don't have to be big and lofty

they can be ridiculously small. Like so

for example for me you know?

I'm

very good at um disappointing myself.

Like I have no problem disappointing

myself, right? Like I'll wake up in the

morning 2 hours before my alarm

and I'll say to myself, "You should work

out. Like

you're up super early. You've got a busy

day and you just got an extra 2 hours.

You could like use 30 minutes of that to

work out. Get out of bed." I'm like,

I'll sit in bed for 2 hours and just

like read the newspaper and play Wordle.

You know?

And 2 hours will go by and I won't work

out.

Do I have any guilt? None.

I'm just like uh you're an idiot Simon,

right? Now, if I'm meeting someone at

the gym

at 7:30 because we're going to work out,

I'll be there.

I won't let somebody down.

I'm okay letting myself down, but I

won't let somebody else down. So for me

my purpose sometimes is very in the

moment. Like I'm doing this for them.

It's like you know, when I when I would

run

you know, one of the reasons I stayed in

good running shape is because when I ran

with my running buddy I never wanted to

ruin their run. If they wanted to keep a

slightly higher pace I could keep it.

So it doesn't always have to be big and

lofty. Sometimes it can be

in the moment.

When you talked about awareness there

and the importance of trying to become

more aware about ourselves and one of

the things that made you aware was that

conversation with your partner. Yeah.

Where they said you don't listen.

You're a shitty listener.

Yeah. Um self-awareness what I don't

know if that's a real thing, but

self-awareness um

seems to be the the foundation of

correct personal growth, right? So

becoming aware about something in our

lives and people can read as I always

say about people can read as many books

as they like, but if they're unable to

read themselves they'll never really

learn a thing. Mhm. For me it and I I I

wrote that couple years ago when I had a

guy in my office who read every single

He was actually one of the people that

always came with your books, right?

Mhm. He read every single book I've ever

seen. He knew every book.

But he never changed.

Yeah. And and he and there was things

within him that he wasn't self-aware

about that I believe were the reason why

he couldn't evolve even though he was

taking in so much information. How does

one go about What are the the the key

ways we can go about increasing our

sense of self-awareness so that we can

grow and evolve?

Such a good question. You know, it's

kind of like people like that are a

little bit like yo-yo dieters, you know?

It's like they they do every diet, but

they're not healthy people.

I read every book, but I'm not growing.

And you can't assess yourself.

You know, it's like can you I mean you

know this from work, right? Which is at

some point somebody's going to have to

give you feedback. At some point you

have to give somebody else feedback.

Like self-assessment is a thing, but

it's not the only thing. It's a thing.

It's a data point. And I'm a huge

believer in self-assessment, but you

have to have that

buttressed with the

assessments of others because we are

blind very often. We're social animals.

We cannot do this thing called career or

life alone. We're just not that smart.

We're not that strong. We're not that

aware. We're just not that good.

As social animals we actually need each

other to watch our backs and tell us

what's working and what's not working.

And I think

for somebody who goes through life and

reads those books, all the books, you

know

I get good on them I guess, but are they

asking for help? Are they asking for uh

insight from others as opposed to just

reading it and agreeing with it and

thinking they're making the changes.

I know my own personal journey and I try

I do think of myself as

I I I work hard to be self-aware and I

work hard to

self-evaluate.

But I I have seen in my own life my

ability to truly demonstrate real

awareness

um and move further down the the journey

and path called life

as opposed to staying stagnant

came when I let others help me. You

know, we we don't build trust by

offering help. We build trust by asking

for it.

Because it's a vulnerable thing to ask

for help.

"Will you help me?" is a very very

vulnerable statement. "Can I help you?"

Not so much. An act of service.

But the act of service really comes from

allowing somebody else to serve you.

Which it becomes this whole

weird twisted circular thing.

You know? Mhm. It's like I mean I'll

give you a silly example.

People who are bad at taking

compliments.

Right?

"You're so smart." No no no no no no,

right? We downplay it because we're

embarrassed by the compliment. Right?

But a compliment is a gift.

Somebody's paying you a gift. Now if

somebody handed you a present you

wouldn't push it back because it would

be rude.

Right? You would accept it. Whether you

like it or not or whether it makes you

comfortable or not you accept it with

gratitude and then you go evaluate it

later.

Oh, that's an ugly sweater.

You know?

But you're still grateful for the

thought and the gift. And a compliment's

the same. And I think all of these

things, the willingness to you know, to

deny someone else the joy of giving you

the gift of the compliment. And to deny

someone else

the intensity and joy of being there for

someone else again I think is selfish.

Never asking for help is selfish.

Asking for help is a great act of

service cuz you allow someone else to

have the joy of sacrifice. And it goes

backwards and forwards. It's not

one-sided. And this is where I think

great relationships work, which is we

take turns.

And

sometimes it's really difficult when

both of us are in need at the same time.

That's gets really difficult. Good thing

we have friends.

So

you know, at the height of COVID

um

I I have a couple of my friends they're

sort of

remarkable high-performing individuals,

both of them.

And one of them called me out of the

blue.

She went for a long walk. She says, "I'm

doing really badly.

And I need to talk to you.

And I don't want to talk to my husband

because he's doing really badly as well.

And I fear that if I talk to him, he

doesn't have the energy for me, but I

know he will want to be there for me,

which will make it worse for him. We're

both really struggling.

Can Do you have some time to talk?"

You know?

And

I mean

A, the willingness to ask for help.

B, the willingness

to

understand that asking her husband for

help would made it even more difficult

for him. It was just a very

sophisticated and beautiful moment. And

to this day, we became And not only did

we become closer for it, but her husband

and I became closer for it as well

because I was there for her when he knew

he couldn't be.

And this is why we have friends.

Like again, we can't do this alone. Not

only are we social animals, we're tribal

animals.

You know, it's more than a friend. It

takes a community.

Um and I think one of the, you know,

we're always talking about what we're

eating and we're talking about what

we're, you know, what

you know, what supplement we're taking

or we're always talking about those

kinds of things or what book we're

reading.

But we we don't do enough talking about

how we are nursing

our close personal relationships, how

we're taking care of those closest to us

and making sure that the tribe is

strong.

Um the crew is taken care of, you know?

Um and I think there's a lot more work

that we can do in that arena.

Is there practical things that you do

with colleagues, partners, friends to

create that culture of

seeking feedback, being open, being

truly vulnerable? You know, some people

say, "Oh, we'll have

we'll sit down with our diary and we'll

write we'll do this exercise." Or you

might have seen in organizations where

they do like 360 feedback things. Is

there Is there practical things we can

do to

create a culture of seeking out that

feedback and creating a safe space?

Well, the simple answer is of course. Um

the there's no such thing as a a single

silver bullet. It's a combination of

things. It's like, "What's the one thing

I can do to happy have a happy

relationship?" Well, I I can't I can

tell you a important thing, but I can't

tell you the important thing. So, it's

the same.

Um and everybody's a little different,

you know, and each culture is a little

different. So, there's there's not even

a set list thing. Okay, but there's some

things that people can choose from. You

know, one thing is one of the ways we

create space is how we react. Right? If

someone gives you feedback and you deny

it,

well, that's a problem.

If somebody gives you hard feedback and

you thank them for it,

it's a very different environment it

creates. So, I I I'll give you two

examples. One a lesson, the other one a

practical example that someone can use.

So, I had the opportunity to visit the

Army Rangers Ranger School in

particular. And uh where they make they

they make Army Rangers.

And one of the

troubles they had a a bunch of years ago

was they had these folks that they

called spotlight Rangers,

which was they were really good at their

job. Like they were brilliant at all the

tasks that were set to them. Strong.

They're the teachers, the instructors

loved them. They stood out. They were

great. They were motivated.

But as soon as the spotlight was turned

off, when the instructor wasn't there

and they were back at barracks, they

were [ __ ]

And the only person who the only people

who knew were their were their friends

and colleagues because the spotlight was

turned off.

And so, the Army Rangers implemented a

system of peer review

in order to identify spotlight Rangers.

And in now

By the way, they started this 40 years

ago, which I find incredibly advanced.

Um

but to advance through Ranger School,

you need to pass three tests. You need

your instructor to say, "Yep, you're

ready to go to the next level." You need

to physically actually perform all the

tasks required of you. And you need to

pass your peer review.

Um

and if you fail any one of those three,

you don't make it to the next level.

Interesting. And so, that becomes a

an an equally weighted component of

advancement in the Army Rangers, which

is what kind of team player are you,

which I love.

So,

we implemented a system of 360 review,

um

which was sort of a bit of an

amalgamation of things we'd taken from

other groups and made our own.

Where what we

what the way it works is um

you take the the group of people you

have regular interaction with

and

you um

fill out

uh your top three

weaknesses

or the places you believe you need to

grow the most.

With a specific example for each. So,

top three specific weaknesses or or or

places you need to grow the most. And

then top three specific strengths

or the places you believe

three examples of the places you believe

you've grown the most. They have to be

specific.

Not like, "Oh, I'm a much better

timekeeper now." No, that

You've got to give some specific

examples.

They're collated and distributed amongst

the team.

And then you come together as a group

and

you take turns

reading them.

So, first you read your own weaknesses.

And then the group has the opportunity

to add to that list.

And here's the best part. We give a

little speech before the whole exercise

that

the people who are going to give you

this feedback

really don't want to.

It's really uncomfortable for them.

It's going to be

uh they they would just rather not do

this exercise at all.

But they're going to do it because they

want to see you and help you grow.

And so, what they're giving you is a

gift. And so, you have to receive it as

a gift, which means you say thank you.

You don't have to agree with it.

If you don't agree with it, say thank

you and just dismiss it. It's fine.

But if it has an emotional impact, if it

makes you angry

or frustrated,

it's probably true.

Right?

And we go around the room and somebody

tell they every people can add to this

list of these weaknesses in any way that

they there's no format. They can do it

in any way they want. And you sit there

and you look them in the eye and you

genuinely say, "Thank you." You're not

allowed to say a word except thank you.

Then you do your strengths and you read

your three strengths and anyone can add

to the list.

And just as you discovered you have

blind spots you didn't know you have,

you discover that you have strengths

that you didn't know you had, that

you're having a positive impact on the

lives of others that you didn't know you

were.

And it's a magical experience. There's

usually tears at some point because it's

powerful. And it's a safe environment. I

wouldn't recommend an organization start

there. I would recommend you build

towards that because you're going to put

very senior people and very junior

people in the same room and they're

going to have very blunt conversations

with each other. And it's

it's real. Right? It's not a place to

start, but it is a place to get to. I

mean, there are variations for it. That

one takes a lot of time. You know, we've

we've very we varied it so where

everybody's responsible for to do it and

you can you have two people assigned and

you can choose one or two people to join

and you just have a smaller a smaller

group when you want to do it, you know?

And it's just for you. So, the others

don't do it in that moment. It's it's a

little more efficient to do it that way.

Um but there's no right or wrong way. I

really love that idea of the promotion

being contingent on not just the your

manager

or your the CEO

believing that you are X, Y, and Z, but

getting peer reviewed by the colleagues

around you because I one of the things I

noticed in my company, we had and when I

left there was about 700 people, but

I would have I would hear reports about

a particular team member

and the reports I would get back about

their character and their conduct never

matched the way they treated me. Mhm.

So, they would always treat me, of

course, amazingly, right? Of course,

right? And then I'd hear that they

treated this person like this and they

did this. And I'd go, "Really?" And they

go, "Yeah." I go, "Really? They they

were always so nice to me." And I

obviously on that basis I would have

promoted that individual and thought

they were great. So, that's definitely

something I'll implement. It's called

the tree of monkeys, by the way.

the tree of monkeys, which is um all the

people at the top looking down see only

smiles, but all the people at the bottom

looking up see only [ __ ]

Oh [ __ ] yeah, that makes perfect sense.

I've never I've never heard that

analogy. And again, you there's you

don't have to do you don't have to you

mean there's again, there's different

cultures can accept different, you know,

there's no right or wrong here.

You know, and some cultures may want to

implement a peer review that gets

included in in a promotion package, but

it doesn't have to be that.

Good leadership helps there as well,

which is every senior person knows that

they don't get the truth.

I mean, even if your people are

wonderful and fantastic, people want to

tell you the right answer not because

they're trying to lie to you, but they

want to please you. Like you you knew

the more senior you got, it was harder

and harder to get the truth. And every

senior leader knows that it's hard to

get the truth. Every great senior leader

also has spies.

Somebody that maybe you started you were

friends with that people don't know

you're friends with or you came up

through the ranks of the organization

together, but your career went a little

further, a little quicker. You know,

that you have these trusted

relationships that you can just get a

little inside scoop as to what's really

going on.

Um also, this is the hardest one,

is or at least it's a hard one, learning

to replace

uh judgment with curiosity.

So, somebody comes to you and says,

"That person is a problem."

And all of a sudden we create a

narrative based on the story that they

tell us that they are a problem. That

person's stupid. That person's lazy,

whatever it is. Now they're labeled as

lazy. Now we treat them as lazy. Now

everything that they do or don't do

because they're lazy,

right? Um but as a good leader, we want

to we can take those reports. We can

take that hearsay.

We can take those direct stories that

people have and we can say, "Thank you.

I appreciate that.

I'll look into it. I'm going to find out

more."

And you go on a little journey to

discover what's really happening.

It absolutely may be that they're lazy.

That could 100% be it.

Or maybe they're distracted for a

reason, or maybe they're having sh-

trouble at home, or maybe we've given

them a job that they're ill-qualified

for, or maybe they're having a

personality conflict with somebody that

they work with. Like, the list goes on

and on and on and on. And the good

leader is finding that out.

And by the way, by leader I don't mean

the senior person. I mean any person in

the organization.

Um to replace that judgment with

curiosity, and I think that's what

creates those environments. But the

reality is is with rank, you do set the

tone.

So, for example, um no lying. That seems

like a pretty simple one inside a

company. We don't tell lies. Okay? Phone

rings.

Your assistant picks up.

Uh they put the person on hold, and they

call out to you.

Uh

David's on the phone.

And you go, "Tell him I'm not here."

You've just sanctioned a lie.

You've just sanctioned a lie.

Right? And that little lie then, now

that person who was told to lie,

s- approvingly, now they can tell a lie,

right? Because came from the boss. And

all of a sudden, you find out you have

an organization that tells lies all over

the place, and some of those lies grow.

It happened to me once where

um

I had a very, very senior phone call

with the top leaders of really big

organization.

Like, and I forgot.

I just didn't show up on the call. I

just

I have no no excuse. I just I forgot to

check my calendar, and

I forgot.

And my assistant at the time, of course,

wanted to protect my reputation.

And she wrote to them and said,

"Terribly sorry.

Simon had another meeting that ran

long."

And I took her aside, and it was the

hardest feedback I had to give, because

she did it with such good intention. I

said, "I am so grateful. I'm so grateful

that you're protecting me, and you're

protecting my reputation.

And I want you to do that.

But you have to do that without lying.

We cannot lie. You can say, "I'm sorry

he's late. I'm sorry he missed the

call."

But you cannot say

it's because he was in another meeting,

cuz that's not true.

And so that you it's this you know, I I

mean, I'll challenge you I you try this.

Right? Let's look at the time right now,

right? It's it's noon. Okay? It's noon

on a I don't even know what day it is.

Monday, right?

You and your entire crew, here's the

challenge for all of you, okay?

You may not tell a single lie

for the next 48 hours. I mean, nothing.

And you'll be amazed how difficult it

is. You'll be amazed how many little

white lies we tell.

Like, the waiter comes over,

and 5 minutes before you're saying,

"Ugh, this food is so salty."

And the waiter comes and goes, "How's

everything?" You go, "It's fine.

Everything's fine. Yeah, thank you. It's

fine." That is a lie.

Right? Now,

you don't have to be mean.

There's nothing that says truth has to

be brutal. It just has to be true.

Try for the next 48 hours and see how

hard it is not to tell a single lie.

Everyone's going to be walking around

asking each other what they think of

each other.

Now

Simon said you've got to be honest.

Right, but there's ways of doing it,

right? Like, so um do these jeans make

me look fat?

I like the other jeans much better.

They're way more flattering.

Right? You don't have to hurt people.

Also, timing.

Right? So, a true story. So, I went to

see a friend's play.

And uh

I I could not wait for this thing to

end. It was so bad.

And I went out, you know, to say hi to

her after the performance, and she came

out. She was still in costume and

makeup.

And she knows I'm an honest broker.

She cares about what I She knows I'll

always tell her the truth in these kinds

of things. And she says to me, "What did

you think?"

Now

now is not the time and place. She's

pumped up full of adrenaline.

And now is not the time for me to give

her a critical evaluation of of this

god-awful performance.

And so, I sidestep the question, but

said something true. I said, "Ugh, it

was such a treat to be here to see you

do your thing.

You know, I've been wanting to see you

on the stage forever, and it was so much

fun to see you on the stage." All of

that was true.

The next day, when the adrenaline had

come down, and

I called her up and said,

"Can I tell you what I thought about the

play?"

She goes, "Yeah, of course." And I told

her critically, piece by piece, what I

thought about it and how bad it was. We

had a

perfectly rational conversation about

it. Didn't hurt her feelings.

The day before I would have really hurt

her feelings. So, not everything has to

be We mistake being honest with being

honest now.

No, I can't lie.

And I have to answer the question.

But I can answer it tomorrow when the

conditions are better

for that message to be received. What is

so insidious, or what is so harmful?

What is the long-term negative impact of

creating that culture of lying within

teams and within ourselves?

Well, there's a there's this there's

this uh psychological uh

um phenomenon, I guess, called ethical

fading.

Uh which can grip an organization's

culture, where people within that

culture become capable of making highly,

highly unethical decisions, believing

they were well within their own ethical

frameworks.

Right?

So, extreme examples

are things like pharmaceutical companies

who have a patent on an essential drug.

And in order to meet or beat some

financial projection, they raise the

price of that essential drug 100%, 500%,

1,000%, 1,500%.

Totally legal. There's nothing illegal

about that. Really unethical.

Right?

And in organizations that suffer ethical

fading, it almost always, if not always,

starts from the top. It's usually a

leadership problem.

It comes from excessive amounts of

pressure to hit certain short-term

goals, to the point where

doing it ethically becomes more and more

difficult.

And so, what creates the ethical fading

is a series of things. One of those

things is um we we we rationalize.

Right? We look for ways to distance

ourselves from the impact of our

decisions. We say things like, "It's

what you got to do to get ahead.

It's what my boss wants.

Um everyone's doing it.

It's the system. I don't have a choice.

Right? Um and there are there are ways

we can disassociate our responsibility.

Right? So, rationalizing is a big part

of it. Another part is the old slippery

slope. You did it once. You did it a

little bit. It worked. We raised the

price 10%. Nobody even noticed. Great.

Do it again. Do do 20% this time. Try

100%. And it just keeps going and going

and going and going before you have

full-blown ethical fading.

And um some of the things are excessive

use of euphemisms. Again, we're using

language to disassociate ourselves from

the impact of our decisions. So, for

example, you know, um we we in the

United States would never torture, but

enhanced interrogation, that sounds very

appealing. Right? Or companies would

never spy on their customers, but data

mining, yeah, no, we're really into

that. Right? Um

we're just using different language to

to mask the insidiousness of our real

decisions. Like, everybody talks about

managing externalities.

But we don't talk about the damage we're

doing to the people and cultures,

environments of the places where our

offices and factories are located. Why

don't you have that conversation?

And so, when you have enough of those

things,

you s- ethical fading shows up, where

you now have

real issues. And in the extreme, you

have massive scandals. Sometimes it

leads to illegal activity, but usually

it's just unethical scandals.

And when those things happen, management

is dragged out, and they talk to the

newspaper to the law, and they always

say the same thing, which is, "We we

broke no laws. Everything we did was

legal." No, we don't have an issue with

the law. We have an issue with your

ethics.

Um but when you don't have when it's not

full-blown, it just becomes an

incredibly uncomfortable and a horrible

place to work.

That increases stress to the point where

you'll do damage to your own health, and

you'll do damage to the way you treat

your family. Because when you're under

that kind of stress to violate your own

ethics

at work, um you're going to come home,

you're going to take it out on your your

spouse and your kids. You're going to

kick the dog.

Um you're not going to be motivated to

do much except sit on the sit on the

couch and watch TV.

You know?

So, it has it has some pretty insidious

uh impact in the lives of human beings.

I was thinking of it as well in terms of

romantic relationships.

One little white lie becomes another

little white lie, and then

a couple of, you know, a year passes,

and you're so unaligned and so far from

your truth that you're resentful that

you're having to keep up with this set

of lies. I mean, we I've talked about it

with a guest on this podcast before. One

one of mistakes I made in my

relationship at the start was I would

say yes to things that I didn't like

doing.

Yeah. So, I created this culture, and

this also this like expectation where my

my partner thought I loved doing

X activity at 6:00 a.m. in the morning,

cuz I'd always said yes, and I'd always

pretended to like it. Now I have to live

out that life of something I do not

enjoy doing, because I lied at the

start. And the journey back is not

always so easy when you've I I I I've

made the same mistake on the other side,

which is after I broke up with someone

when we maintained a friendship.

And I started dating somebody, or at

least started dating, but I didn't want

to hurt the feelings of this person I

still care about that we broke up, you

know, a couple months before.

Um and so, if she I would avoid the

conversation, but if she said, "Are you

dating anybody?" I'd say, "No, not

really."

And it's not because I wanted to lie,

it's because I don't want to hurt her.

Like, the intention, of course, is

positive.

But what I learned later is all of those

little lies

meant that sh- she was holding out hope

that wasn't there. And by the way, I'm

it's been done to me as well. I'm

holding out hope that's not there,

because someone didn't want to hurt my

feelings. And I would rather just have

the uncomfortable conversation.

Are you dating somebody? You are.

Okay, well that hurts, but I can heal.

I can move on.

And you know, again,

this young generation, because of all

the reasons we've talked about and more,

seems to exhibit the traits of being

very conflict avoidant.

Very uncomfortable with uncomfortable.

Um that has some

impact that are

sometimes

funny,

quote unquote,

but always tend to make somebody feel

more lonely. So, for example, and I've

seen this happen I've heard about these

stories so many times. A

a young employee

who may feel they're in line for a

raise,

but is so uncomfortable to go and to

their boss

and ask for a raise,

that they just quit.

That they would rather quit than have an

uncomfortable conversation.

And then

sometimes it is followed by a

an angry email that says, "I'm

undervalued. You don't appreciate me.

You underpay me."

You know?

And and I've I've I've heard it happen

so many times where

the leadership is like, "What what? We

would have happily

I like I'm sorry we we were either

planning on giving you a raise, we'd

happily give you a raise, you know?" And

it's really uncomfortable to walk in

your boss's office and be like, "Hey,

I'm working really hard. Can I have a

raise, please?" Now, the time you do get

to quit is when you've had this

conversation four, five, six times and

you've seen nothing and had no feedback

and had no impact, then absolutely you

quit. And absolutely you say, "You

undervalue me. You underappreciate me.

We've under underappreciate me. We've

had this conversation five or six

times." Then it's their fault.

Because they had all the information.

But again, it's really funny how many

young kids are would were they they

would rather quit than have a difficult

conversation. Or they'd rather break up

than have a difficult conversation. Or

worse, they'd rather go someone than

break up with them.

Because it's really uncomfortable to

have a fight and a breakup

and call each other names.

It's much easier to just turn off all

the social media, un- unfollow

everywhere. I know we've been dating for

6 months, but I'm just going to now

ignore every text, ignore all your

calls, and think about it from the we

talk about service.

Think about the service or disservice we

do the other person for their their

point of view.

It's like you got in a car accident.

It's like you were just killed. It's

like you just disappeared off the

planet. That is trauma.

Because you're uncomfortable to have an

uncomfortable conversation, you would do

that to so another person. So, service

goes both ways.

Which is I will make myself

uncomfortable and have a difficult

conversation, even if I bumble it and

screw it up and it ends up being a

screaming match.

Because that is a better option

than traumatizing a person where they

have to believe

that I've first of all that I've died,

because they can't get hold of me in the

panic. And then when they realize I'm

alive, because they see me on Instagram,

that now I've destroyed their

self-confidence.

How dare somebody do that to another

human being? Because you're just a

little uncomfortable of having an

uncomfortable conversation. Where we can

help is we can teach people how to have

uncomfortable conversations. That is a

skill set.

We don't teach leaders how to have

uncomfortable conversations. We don't

teach students how to have uncomfortable

conversations. We don't teach, you know,

we can teach these things all over the

place.

And I think it's I think it's a big

gaping hole in curriculum. We teach, you

know, maths and we teach English, but we

don't teach social interaction. We don't

teach listening. We don't we don't teach

how to have uncomfortable conversations.

We don't teach how to give and receive

feedback.

You know? Now, you tell me which is

going to be more valuable for the rest

of your life. How to have a difficult

conversation or trigonometry?

Yeah.

And shouldn't we be, you know, isn't

this shouldn't we be preparing people

for life?

Mhm.

I have a few words to say about one of

my sponsors on this podcast. As the

seasons have begun to change, so has my

diet. And um right now, I'm just going

to be completely honest with you, I'm

starting to think a lot about slimming

down a little bit, because over the last

couple of probably the last four or five

months, my diet has been pretty bad. Um

and it's started to show a little bit.

Really over the last 2 months. I go to

the gym about 80% of the time. So, I

track it with 10 of my friends in a

WhatsApp group and this tracker online

that we all use together. We call it

fitness blockchain. And I'm currently at

81%.

Um so, 81% of the days I've done a

workout in the last 150 days, right? So,

I'm going to the gym about six times a

week.

That's been a little bit impacted by the

Diary of a CEO live tour, but I'm trying

to stick to it.

And so, one of the things I'm doing now

to reduce my calorie intake and trying

to get back to being nutritionally

complete in all I eat is I'm having the

Huel protein shake. Thank you, Huel, for

making a product that I actually like.

The salted caramel is my favorite. I've

got the banana one here, which is the

one my girlfriend likes, but for me,

salted caramel is

the one.

On that point of that new generation in

the workplace and how they're they're

exhibiting traits of being a little bit

more cowardly

in terms of having those difficult

conversations. You made a video about

millennials in the workplace that did

probably hundreds of millions of views.

Yeah. I remember seeing it on Facebook

maybe 5 years ago. And it just I think

it had 50 million views on that one

video, but across YouTube it's got tens

of millions of views on many, many

different videos. Yeah. Um but I'm

thinking now about that new generation

that you've described, that younger

generation, that Gen Z generation that

are emerging into the like post-COVID

world.

Mhm.

What is the workplace for them? What it

How do I as a leader make sure that if

I'm hiring Gen Z and I've got a couple

even in this room that work in my

company,

what have we got to know about them and

do to make sure that they thrive, stay

motivated, and achieve their goals?

Uh this is my own bias.

I don't like the conversation of

strengths and weaknesses.

Um you know, it's the famous question,

you know, in an interview, "What's your

biggest weakness?" Well, I'm a

perfectionist, you know?

Uh

I don't like the conversations of

strengths and weaknesses, because

um strengths often have liability.

I'm really confident. Okay, in the wrong

context, you're arrogant.

Right? But weaknesses also have

silver linings. So, for me, I'm

chronically disorganized. I'm terrible,

right?

Every system app I've works for like a

week and then I'm back to being

disorganized.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Now, for years I used to beat myself up

for it and say it's a bad thing. It's a

it's a terrible weakness. But the

reality is it's context. So, I was at

this as a young entrepreneur as at this

networking event

and I met this guy who was like really

impressed with what I had to say with my

pitch and he's like, "Simon, we have to

do work together. Here's my business

card. Call me, let's do this."

And I lost the business card basically

as soon as he gave it to me. So, anybody

who was organized would be sending a

text from the taxi or at least sending

an email the next day. Not Yahoo over

here. I lost the business card. There

was no way for me to find out what this

important piece of business would have

led to, because I lost the card.

Two weeks later, I found the business

card at the bottom of a briefcase.

So, I emailed him and said, "Hey, do you

remember we met 2 weeks ago? You know,

I'd love to reconnect and see if we can

work together still." He wanted to work

with me more, because he thought I was

busy.

So, strength or weakness? The answer is

it depends. Now, in general, yes, it is

a weakness, it's a liability, and it

causes me great stress. But not always

is the point. And so, yes, it's

important for us to understand our

characteristics

that we exhibit, of which some of them

in the con- in certain contexts are huge

strength and some of the the exact same

characteristics in the wrong context are

huge weaknesses. Right? So, it's very

it's we have to be very careful when we

label people or generations as being

strong or weak, because the answer is it

depends.

Okay, so that's the preface. So, we talk

about this young generation,

young the the Gen Z generation. They

exhibit many of the same characteristics

as the previous generation, but they're

quite different in the sense that

they're very activist.

Right? So, for example, in the 1950s and

'60s, people hated their jobs back then,

too. They just went to work every day

and just suffered in silence. You know,

by the time you get to the '80s and

'90s, people hated their jobs, but then

they'd at least start talking around

about it around the office saying, "You

know, this this job kind of sucks a

little bit." You know? And then by the

time you get sort of the 2000s, people

start speaking up to their bosses

saying, "I think we should make it

better to work here." You know? And now

you in this young generation and they're

just like

they're like standing up and quitting

and like and I love it, right? And and

and they organize. They're much more,

you know, the previous generation would

like hashtag tweet my discontent as I'm

sitting in my Uber on my way to brunch.

You know, but this young generation gets

out and organizes and comes together.

Plus or minus? Depends. Sometimes it's a

huge strength, the fact that they have

that kind of energy. But sometimes, as

we've talked about as well, they also

have the energy to quit instead of

having an uncomfortable conversation.

So, strength or weakness? It depends.

And so, I think the way we have to

approach all of these things is with

empathy. Which is instead of

uh uh deciding if it's a strength or

weakness, to try and understand where it

comes from. Cuz I can say this

generation is irresponsible and will

quit before they ask for a a a raise.

Or I can say,

"Why is it that they're quitting before

they get a when they just need a raise?"

What's mis- what's what's what happened

between A and B in that thought in those

two actions? You know? And I'm like,

"Oh, they just missed the skill set. Oh,

we can totally figure that one out. That

one's an easy fix." So, I'm not labeling

a whole person or a whole generation.

I'm not rather recognizing that there is

gaps of

uh skills, which we all have.

So, when you ask me about any of the

generations,

and they all have strengths and they all

have liabilities.

And depending on the time frame and the

context, sometimes sometimes those

strengths also

become old-fashioned, no longer

necessary. You know, they can still

cause frustration, they can still cause

confusion.

You know, we're still looking through

them at our through our own prisms of

our own generation. I've definitely

caught myself doing it. You know, I do

do it. My goodness, we never did that

when we were kids. You know, when I was

their age, I'm actually saying that now.

But um I think the the

the trial

the the the the test is the practice of

empathy, which is another skill that we

can teach that's missing. How is this

the the COVID experiment on the

workforce and the workplace? So, how do

like business leaders or business owners

need to adjust in order to

make sure we don't

lose people and become an un-

compelling, unattractive place to work

in this post-COVID era?

And also on the point you talked about

earlier about the importance of like

we're social animals and we need that

social connection and we're being kind

of we're optimizing that out of our

lives. It feels to me like this remote

working thing has has exacerbated the

issue because we're, you know, for for

young people it's you know, I think that

the office is one of the few

institutions we have left where we are

in person. We no longer get dating, we

do that on apps. Food, we don't go to

restaurants anymore, we just order Uber

Eats. And now work they're telling us is

going to be done from Zoom. I'm like,

what do we have left?

Yeah, lonely. We're we're going to be

lonely.

And it's not a coincidence that we see

rising rates of depression, anxiety,

suicide, you know, especially in in

younger generations. So, you know, it's

not causal, but it's there's definitely

a correlation.

You know, it reminds me of when um

and I'm old enough for this, some of

your listeners are not, but I remember

when the internet showed up

and e-commerce started.

And I remember some of the people who

were really into the tech running around

thinking this is the death of bricks and

mortars, there will never be stores

again.

And now Amazon opened stores and Rent

the Runway opened stores and turns out

it's the extremes are not great places,

you know? It's not the death, it's live

alongside, they become different

animals. They become different reasons.

We go to shops not to get the best deal.

You go to you go to you go to websites

to get the best deal.

You go to shops because it's fun. You go

to shops to try stuff on. You go to

shops because it's an activity because

we our hunter-gatherer instincts, we

like foraging and looking for things.

It's entertainment.

We enjoy the service aspect, you know?

It's with our friends. Sometimes it's

not about the shops at all, it's just a

a place something to do with our

friends. Place plays a different role.

And the smart retailers know that.

And so when we talk about work, it's the

same. It's the death of the corporate

headquarters, it's the death of the

office. I'm like, uh

is it though? You know, the reality is

there's going to be somewhere in the

middle. And I think one thing with all

the predictions about what the future of

work looks like, I think one thing we

can be absolutely sure of is there'll be

more flexibility.

Where you know, where it used to be,

"Hey boss, can I take off next Friday?

Can I work from home next Friday? I have

to stay home for whatever, right?"

becomes emailing in the morning saying