So, I messaged my closest friends. Can

you tell me what question you have that

you wouldn't ever say out loud? Give me

a few. How can I be satisfied with just

one sexual partner? I have my partner.

Should I tell them? I no longer find my

partner attractive, but I don't know how

to tell her. We have a lot to talk

about. You going to record me today?

Okay. All right. Here's what I would

suggest. Esther PL is regarded as one of

the most sought after relationship

therapists in the world. For the past 40

years, she's been helping millions of

people with her brutally honest and

wildly relatable insights. People are

having less sex. Why is the sex getting

less interesting? No, their life with

each other is less interesting. And what

concerns me at this moment, it's the

loss of social skills, but they are

vital to us. And we have less and less

opportunities to practice because we are

pursuing connection beyond the human

world. People don't have partner sex,

they have sex on porn. We also are

surrounded by algorithmic perfections

and that's creating warped expectations

that we bring to our relationships and

then there's the misery of the dating

app. Have you heard this story of the

guy who swiped 2 million times to get

one date? Oh god. It appears that you

have many options but you'll swipe swipe

swipe and you're going to get frustrated

because you don't get matched with

anybody. But don't make the app become

the replacement where you can actually

go outside, meet people, and also deal

with rejection because it's a major

feature to develop relationships. But

we've never been more free, but we've

never been more alone and more filled

with self-doubt. So, tell me how to fix

it in order to have a great

relationship. There's a ton of really

important things. The first thing this

This has always blown my mind a little

bit. 53% of you that listen to the show

regularly haven't yet subscribed to the

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much.

[Music]

Esther, with all that you know and with

all that you study and with all that you

research and write about and think

about,

what is it that concerns you most? What

is front of mind for you when you think

about mating and dating and human

connection?

What concerns me most

I think is the fact that uh there is a

unique moment in history at this moment

where we are redesigning our

communication our way ways of connecting

our ways of answering the big questions

but specifically in the realm of

relationships it's social atrophy I

think we are losing social skills and

the word atrophy for anyone that doesn't

know is atrophy is when you don't use

muscles they go numb. Social atrophy is

when you no longer know how to speak to

people. And what is the cost of that? If

we do lose that social ability to to

connect and to have happen stance, what

price do we pay? Why does life get

harder? And how does it get harder?

Because we are social creatures. We are

wired for connection.

If we we live longer because we are

connected. We don't live longer because

we are master biohackers.

We need those connections. They are just

literally vital to us. So, um it's not

that we have replaced this, you know,

and and our skills are still honed in.

We don't we have less and less

opportunities to practice.

If you do sports and you don't practice

your sport, you wouldn't be asking me

what is the price. You would know that

if you don't play and it's been years of

not playing, then that thing is out of

your life. Done. But you can do other

things, whereas you can't live without

connection. So many people are really

dissatisfied with the choices they have

for connection. Now, I'm sure we're all

to blame, but when I when I scroll

through my my feed on social media, one

of the things I've seen lately, I saw it

just before you arrived and also a

couple of days ago, was people so angry

at dating apps. Mhm. And I've got

friends close to me who are furious that

their only apparent option to meet

someone these days. Go outside, go walk

your dog, go run, go with a bike group,

go to a go do life and you will meet

people. I mean, you create situations.

It's not, you know, where are the

available situations? Where are the the

options for meeting people? You create

options. You know, you're at a you're at

a coffee shop, you're ordering a coffee,

ask the person next to you if you can

offer them one. Can do something that

actually invites relatedness.

And I know the anger at the app. I get

that, you know. I I'm actually quite

connected to to to this whole world of

dating apps. But I think that it's a

tool. Use it but don't make it become

the replacement for the multitudes of

situations.

Yesterday I sat on a plane. I spoke for

3 hours with two people just because

there was no Wi-Fi.

It was just an amazing conversation and

and all of us at the moment we landed

said to each other, "Wow, if we had had

Wi-Fi, we wouldn't have talked to each

other one bit or five minutes and then

be done with this." It's all these

situations that we don't take advantage

of. We used where we used to always talk

to people. And I think if you just rely

on the app, you will go through a loop.

You'll go on it. You'll swipe, swipe,

swipe. You'll respond with the least

amount of effort possible because you've

so burned out already from doing this

that you don't really want to give much

of yourself. If you don't give much of

yourself, you're not going to get the

kind of responses that you want. Then

you're going to get frustrated because

you don't get matched with anybody. But

you don't look at your own laziness that

is not particularly invited for someone

to actually want to match with you. And

then you say now I'm tired of this. So

now you get off the app for 6 months.

You take a break. You say I'm done with

the apps. And then six months later you

say I don't want to meet someone. And

what do you do? You go back on the app

instead of thinking of the multitudes of

situations where you can actually meet

people. And it's become so weird to talk

to somebody. you know, you can sit next

to someone and at the at the counter and

it's like you're a weirdo if you start

talking to me instead of, you know, why

not? Cuz even in the situation of your

plane ride, if there had been Wi-Fi,

those people wouldn't have wanted to

talk to you. So really, regardless of

your attempt, you would have been met

with, you know, rejection to some

degree, social rejection.

Maybe, maybe. But you know, the original

app, if you really want to understand

the gamification of that, it was really

done as a way to not have to put

yourself out and have to deal with

rejection. But do you rejection is a

major feature of relationships. Learning

to live with people who say no to us

is essential. Have you heard this story

of the guy who tracked his Tinder

swipes? And the story is that he swiped

two million times to get one date. And

you can kind of see this is him here.

This is the image of the of the swipe.

So it says this guy swiped 2 million

58,000 times. He got 2,000 matches from

that. Mhm. Which turned into 1,200 chats

which turned into one date.

Such a system is failing a huge

percentage of people. This is the chap

on WhatsApp on Tinder, I believe it was.

This is Here he is. I'll put him on the

screen so everyone can see. Mhm. And you

can kind of see the the photos that he

he led with on his dating profile. He

probably shouldn't be holding a massive

fish. I'm not sure many women are into

that, but Oh, he's got the fish picture.

Yes. Yes. For people like him, what's

the honest advice that someone like him

needs? Because you know clearly dating

apps aren't going to work for him which

is a lot of us from what I read. But how

many hours he should also have put on

the amount of hours that he Oh it does

have that. So has the hours too. So has

the amount of time he's been a member of

the apps just over five years almost six

years. Yes. I mean the first thing if if

you sat in my office and you told me

this I would not spend my time

discussing what you're doing on the app.

I would discuss what you're doing off

the app. And if you ever are even off

the app,

I mean, have you the amount of hours of

swiping that you've done, obviously this

is not yielding anything. Why are you

continuing? 5 years is an enormous

amount of time in your life. I feel sad

for you. You know, have you tried any

other ways? Have you have you been with

with your friends? Do you have friends?

Have your friends introduced you to

people? Have you gone to places where

you are more likely to meet people? I

don't know what you're interested in,

but if your fishing is one of those

things, you know, maybe even at the fish

market you could meet, but I mean more

of it isn't going to give you more of

it. It's just going to make you more

frustrated. So, if you were sat there,

there's a rigidity to this. It's like,

what are you trying to prove? You know,

go try something else. If you're trying

to park in a space that you can't get

in, at some point, don't you go look for

another space? Is there an element of

this where, you know, from what I heard

from dating apps, there's only a small

percentage of men that could basically

get all the opportunity if I I'll put

the numbers on the screen, but yeah, I

know the holes. Yes. And a large

proportion of women get lots of

opportunity because lots of men swipe

for But opportunity for what to be

swiped does that mean? There's and then

what the main thing is can we have a

conversation about emotional capitalism

you know I go I try I I I try to get the

best I try to shop you know I try to to

maximize my chances but fundamentally

the app originally was broadening your

circle. It gave you the opportunity to

meet people that you would otherwise not

meet. There was something very beautiful

about that. From that it became a

commodification. People treat each other

like [ __ ] People ghost each other left

and right. People tell each other things

and then disappear. People don't have to

say, "I'm not interested in seeing you

again." They just close the shop. And

the misery is not because they haven't

met someone. The misery is the treatment

that this kind of semi anonymity enables

you. You don't have to be polite

anymore. You don't have to treat people

with minimum decency.

And that's what hurts people. That that

makes people bitter, angry, doubting

themselves. A lot of things like that.

It's part of the challenge that I have

so many apparent options. Now, as

someone on these dating apps, it's kind

of like going to a when you go to like

Asia or Thailand and you get the menu

and the menu is so big, they'll like

make anything you want. So, you find it

hard to choose. And also any choice you

make, you realize that it's come at the

cost of so many other things you could

have had. So it's less special, it's

less scarce. And in a world of Instagram

and dating apps, it appears that I have

100,000 options. Yes, it appears that

you have many options. And it appears

that you have a paradox of choice. And

it appears that you constantly are

dealing with the FOMO of what else is

around the corner. But the interesting

thing is when I work with people, I

spend a lot of time reading reading what

they actually post. Even a peacock is

more creative than us, you know, in how

they attract people, in what you say, in

what, hey, what's up?

want to hang.

Is that giving you any energy in your

body? Okay. I mean, this is half the the

messages.

I'm watching. I'm chilling. Okay. Well,

keep chilling. It's like where is the

energy? Where, you know, there's

something about called flirting,

attracting someone, showing an interest,

etc., etc., etc. What's a better thing

for us to say? Oh, man. You know, show

interest. I saw something in your

picture. Uh, I'm wondering, you know, if

we went to listen to music, what's the

first band we would go to listen to?

Something that says you are a person

with life, with interest, with

curiosity. Show curiosity. It's probably

the first thing that you do when you are

drawn to somebody. I guess if I've been

rejected so much, as you said, I've been

kind of demoralized. The energy has been

taken out of me. So now it's just become

this sort of cycle of just well then

don't do it then go then do something

else for a while. Don't stay in that

pattern. It's it's it's really

depleting. But the thing about the

choice is that we also are living

surrounded by algorithmic perfections

and predictive technologies that are

trying to deliver us always, you know,

on demand delivery of our everyday life

always on without any friction and that

is creating warped expectations that we

bring to our relationships. That very

same expectation for perfection and

forcopantic

responses, you know. So the more we are

interacting with AIS and the more we are

re receiving a different kind of

response, the more challenging it will

be for us to actually deal with real

people and and to face what you call

rejection. Not every refusal is a

rejection. I mean this guy didn't write

how many times he wasn't interested. He

only tells you what's happening to him.

He gives you the victim story. It's a

statement of this thing doesn't work for

me and men don't get answered on the app

and you get this whole plight but

there's no context. I can't give you a

and I don't think anybody should

actually respond to this without knowing

all these other details. Is there an

issue when you mentioned men there is

there an issue that gender roles have

shifted and when we think about the

plight of men they are you know this I

think the single biggest killer of men

over the age of 45 is themselves and the

gender roles um have shifted so much

that often men have less purpose

feelings of purpose and worth now than

they used to have. Women and men have

got gotten closer to a point of

financial equality. they've gotten

closer um than the past which now kind

of also means that the role of a man if

we think historically is less clear than

the role of a man maybe 50 100 years

ago. To understand masculinity you have

to understand the broader spectrum of

relationships.

So relationships used to be about duty

and obligation, loyalty and community.

And happiness came not from what you do

for yourself, but happiness came from

having fulfilled your role and your

mission and your obligation to the

people that you owe to your family

primarily. That model is still the

prevailing model in most parts of the

world. We shifted that model from duty

and obligation to option and choice. And

so now we have zero clarity and a lot of

freedom. And we've never been more free,

but we've never been more alone and more

confused and more filled with

self-doubt. How how long have you been

working with

men and women in a relationship love

connection? 40 years. So what have you

seen change in the conversation around

men and masculinity? Like what are the

different problems that men are talking

about in when they speak to you that

they weren't speaking about when you

started your career? I mean you can

start with the subject of loneliness.

Loneliness, which is a a a general

societal issue at this point, is

definitely a major affliction, even more

so for boys and men. Okay? Loneliness

was not a the story of men in the 19th

century. Men hunted together, men hiked

together, men gathered together, men

went to the bar together. Men had

conversations with other men. Men meant

met, you know. So the there is nothing

inherent about men that sets them up for

more loneliness and isolation.

That is really important to understand.

Men, boys till the age of four and then

till the age of seven are highly

emotional. They can articulate. They can

so these are cultural phenomenons. These

are social developments. This is not

biological. This is not intrinsic to

men. One shift that's taken place which

I'm keen to get your perspective on is

relates to sex. One in three men under

30 in the US reported no sex in the past

year. That's triple the rate from 2008.

Millennials and Gen Z's are having less

sex than any generation since records

began despite more access to the dating

apps we talked about. Yeah. In Japan

over 40% of young adults are virgins and

they say many say that they have no

interest in sex. Mhm. And lastly,

married couples in the UK and the United

States report a steady decline in sexual

frequency since the early 2000s. Yeah, I

wrote about that in Mating in Captivity

that came out in 2006. That's 20 years

ago. Yes. Because in order to have sex

with a female partner, if that's the man

you're talking about, you need to be

able to approach her. And so social

atrophy is directly connected to what is

often called the sexual recession.

I mean I in in mating 20 years ago I

have an entire chapter where someone

basically says to me I'd rather have the

security of an MBA than of a

relationship.

Okay. And at that point already you

began to see that adolescence in the

United States it's not everywhere in the

world but certainly in the US and where

more and more going in groups and having

less and less pair bonding and less and

less romantic relationships that

accompany you through your adolescence

that develop with you and you basically

develop sex as part of a plot and not as

something that at some point your

hormones force you to do. But a story, a

story, a relationship is a story. And

then at suddenly you arrive at a certain

age and now you're looking at this other

person with whom you want to have sex

and it's like this unknown continent

that you have to conquer. But but you've

never spoken with those people. You have

very little female friends who are just

friends who help you understand what

happens with your girlfriend. You know,

there's an entire social map that has

dissipated. So the sex is the last thing

on the list of all these disconnects

that then of course lead you to have

this kind of statistic and that means

with partners they have plenty of sex

maybe with themselves and others other

other

but it's partnered sex here that is that

is involved right they have sex on porn

they have sex

they don't have partner sex you know do

you understand when I say to you this is

a you can add that to your statistics

too that the majority of men who come to

sex therapy today for erectile

dysfunctions are young men in their 20s,

not old men after prostate issues.

Really? Yes. Why? Because they spend an

enormous amount of time with themselves

watching porn and masturbating. Yes.

Because in order to be able to maintain

erections with a partner, it's an it's

an it's an attunement, right? It's a

resonance. It's grooving together. But

if you've always just been by yourself,

then you only know how to kind of be

connected to your own physiological

responses. I've worried about this

before. I've worried that if I watch

pornography that I will like desensitize

myself to the real thing. Depends how

much, depends if what else is there in

your life. I mean, it's not an all or

nothing thing. But what I'm saying is

social atrophy. The the the gradual

disconnect of the multiple touch points

between people leads to then the

challenges that are also sexual leads to

the kind of social isolation leads to

people confusing friends and friendship.

So they can have a thousand virtual

friends but no one to feed their cat.

You know it's it's it's all para no one

to feed their cat. Yeah. Who would pick

up a prescription at the pharmacy? who

may pick me up at the airport,

who will go check on on someone I care

about if I happen to not be there. Yes.

Who shows up for me? Because it's

foundational to trust. Who can I lean

on? Do you have my back? Can I rely on

you?

So do you think the partnered sex is in

decline because because they're still

having sex but they're doing it on their

own now with in part sex is in decline

because social connection is in decline

because people have less friends because

people the statistics on who you call to

when you are in trouble are really

terrible. People have no one to confide

in. So what how does that impact my sex

with my partner? Well, you you won't

have a partner usually. What this

statistic says is that there is no

partner. Young men the age of 30 don't

have sex with partners. This one here

from the British Medical Journal says

that married couples in the UK and US

report a steady decline in sexual

frequency. Yes. Since basically the

internet. Yeah. So here's how this

works. How much time do you spend in

front of a screen during the day? Nine

hours. All right. And then you sometimes

think now I'm going to go home and I'm

finally can close the screens. Yeah. But

then you're so tired that all you can do

is watch TV. Yeah. And then while you

watch TV, you're also scrolling on your

phone. Yeah. And then while you're

watching TV and scrolling on your phone,

there may be somebody sitting next to

you that does the exact same thing.

Yeah. All right. And then somebody may

even say something to the other person

who goes, "Uh-huh."

Doesn't look at them. Uh-huh.

Very interesting. And you really wonder

why people are having less sex.

It is. It's hard. It's hard. I'm going

to say it is hard. Right. So, people are

experiencing at that moment what I've

come to call ambiguous loss.

Ambiguous loss is when I'm actually with

somebody, but I don't feel the

closeness, the intimacy, the connection

from actually being with that person. I

don't know if you're here or not here.

Ambiguous loss is actually a term that

was developed by Pauline Bos, a

psychologist who talked about it when

you have a person who has Alzheimer or

dementia and they are actually

physically in front of you but they are

emotionally or psychologically gone or

people who are deployed or have

disappeared or miscarriage where people

are no longer physically there but they

are emotionally very very present inside

of you. In both cases you don't know are

they here or are they not. Do I say

goodbye or do I hold on? When I am doing

this looking at your phone and I have

like the a still face and I'm barely

responding to you who said something

that may be quite important. You don't

know are you here but you're not

present.

I'm with you, but I'm not experiencing

any of the things that one experiences

from the closeness of being with you,

like Alzheimer, dementia, physically

there, but psychologically elsewhere.

Because it's not just that you're not

here, it's that you're in another world.

You're gone somewhere. You may be

talking to who knows.

And I guess this is the from reading

your work, this is the crux of many an

argument. The argument might sound like,

oh, you didn't put the toilet seat down,

but it's actually linked to

something else, something deeper under

the surface.

I I just see it, you know, specifically

when me and my partner have been away

from each other for a long time and then

we come back together. I always know

we're going to argue for the first like

one or two days. It's not even going to

be an argument. It's going to be

there's going to be a problem. And the

problem is usually around expectations,

which is I come in and my head is still

d like I'm still a million miles away,

maybe on a different frequency, thinking

about lots of things. And I think she

comes into that space expecting

connection and I let her down. And we've

tried to like call it out and say,

"Listen, when we come back together,

let's just, you know, both make an

effort in that direction." But, um,

going back to your point of ambiguous

loss, it's like it's almost like she's

trying to test if I'm

connected to her. And I sometimes don't

do a good job of that because of how I

come into that space. Like for example,

right now I'm filming Dragon STEM, which

is a TV show in Manchester. And so I

film three or four days a week, morning

till night. The minute I get off from

it, I'm back with her. So you can

imagine everything hits me at once.

Do you what I'm saying? Yes. Like all of

my team, all the to-do list, everything.

Steve, we need you to sign this off all

at once, but then I'm back in front of

her. Mhm. So she's experiencing that

ambiguous loss. And the expectation was

that we haven't seen each other for a

while. So this is, you know, so the

question is, can you carve out a half an

hour that's clean? An hour that's clean

that connects. Yeah. But don't do that

just for her. You have to imagine that

when you do what you do and it all is

bleeding into each other and all your

roles collapse into the same space that

it actually is doing something for you.

to you, not for you, to you. And that to

to actually close the phone,

tell people to call you in an hour, you

won't miss a thing. And to actually drop

in

is going to give you a level of energy,

of oxytocin, of well-being that is way

more important or as important as every

supplement you may be swallowing.

Yeah. Cuz you're It's true. I think it's

not just for her. Yeah, I am excited to

see her and I am excited to connect in

here. I just You said it wrong. You said

it correctly. Like I just multi I try

and multitask and I I let everything

down. Yes. The boss, the podcaster, the

this, the that and the boyfriend is all

in the same thing. Um it's an

indigestion. So you're a fan of

scheduling clean time to do things. Oh

yeah. Oh yeah. It's you can call it

scheduling, you can call it demarcation,

you can call it delineation. We are

social creatures who really orient

ourselves in time and in space. When

everything happens to us at the same

time, we get headaches. They not always

experienced as headaches, but in fact,

we get a confusion inside. We're not

here, we're not here, we're not here,

we're not here, it's just okay. So, you

can call that scheduling or you can call

it that, you know, when you go to place

when you go to the gym, you basically

put on certain clothes, you prepare

yourself for that. It's an activity that

comes with a role that comes with a set

of things that comes with a delineation

of time that makes you go to a certain

space

where you're going to go do that thing

and we this happens when you go out at

night this when you go out for dinner

when you the same thing is for home.

It's a if you are going to spend the

moment with her, however short it is, if

it's clean and present, not just kind of

semi there, ambiguously present, it will

change a lot of things for you, for her,

and for the two of you. Before we sat

down today, I messaged a group of 10 of

my closest friends. I put them all in a

group chat, and I told them I was going

to be speaking to you today. So I said

to them, "Can you tell me what question

you have for Esther Pel?" These are all

my 10 of my best friends that you

wouldn't ever say out loud. How can I be

satisfied with just one sexual partner?

I have been unfaithful with my partner

in the past

and I feel guilty about it. Should I

tell them?

I no longer find my partner attractive,

but I don't know how to tell her. I love

her but I don't find her attractive.

Those are probably the most interesting

ones.

I think the one that I would probably uh

address is also uh about the infidelity

and about your guilt. That's that and

also to this person read state of

affairs because I spent many years

writing this book about infidelity and

trying to offer a very nuanced

perspective on this very subject. But

here's the thing

to tell somebody something just because

you don't have a clean conscience and

you feel guilty isn't always the kind

thing to do.

Ask yourself what will happen to your

partner or to your relationship for that

matter if you speak about this now

and who you doing it for. I think

honesty sometimes is extremely caring

and at other times can be very cruel.

It cleanses you and it destroys another

person.

deal with your responsibility and deal

with your guilt and face the

consequences of your behavior and treat

your partner with all the good things

that actually say I now am willing to

really invest in here and and make up

for what I did without having to destroy

the narrative of the relationship

because everybody has a story about

their relationship. Everybody has a set

of shared assumptions about their

relationship. And you are going to come

in and just say, "Last year or two years

ago or five years ago, I did X, Y, and

Z." And from that moment on, you rob the

other person of their narrative.

You may think you did something that was

honest, and sometimes that is the case.

But many times you actually create an

enormous amount of hurt. If you feel

guilty, it's not bad. Deal with your

guilt. Face it. Take your responsibility

and make your relationship the best

relationship you can. And honor your

partner in that way. Don't honor them by

putting your dirt onto them. That is a

different way of saying and that is not

for everyone. But I think that it is an

important perspective to include here

because we live in this era where

transparency supposedly is the the best

model for everything. And people dish

stuff out on other people that destroys

them

in the name of and when you're no longer

attracted to your person, you know, ask

yourself what is that about? You know,

is it are you paying attention? are you?

Um I think people often just think that

attraction is something like I look at

you and I should just instantly have a

response,

you know. Um and sometimes it's also

because I haven't really taken a good

look and sometimes it's because what I'm

looking at isn't necessarily anymore

what draws me in. And sometime it's it's

not, you know, attraction is a very fle

fluid thing. It comes and go. When I'm

angry at you, I'm not nearly as

attracted to you as when I'm looking at

you being so kind to someone and I say,

"What a great person you are and I just

want to come and and I run over and I

want to hug you and I want to hold you."

That's attraction, too, right? We're not

just talking about the attraction to

have sex with somebody. Attraction is is

in a in a is part of a story. It's part

of a context. You know, if you think

that you're just going to watch Netflix

for three hours, scroll on your phone

for another two, and then turn around

and say, "Oh, you're so attractive and

I'm so turned on by you." We you're

you're off. You're off. This is not the

way that it works. And then it's easy to

replace the person and to just think

you're, you know, new shiny object. We

will be very attracted again. But

attraction is a part of an interaction

that these two words have the have the

same ethmological root if there is zero

interaction. Now if you have a partner

who neglects themselves, a partner who

you know there's lots of things that

people also do that diminishes them.

There was a woman in a in in a

an event I just did and you know there

had been some hurt in the relationship

and so she said I'm no longer attracted

which is not the same as I have no

desire. Basically she had no desire

and she said but I've worked we've

talked everything out. We've discussed

it. I said yeah you may have discussed

it but your body shut down. Your body

carries the anger. Your body carries the

hurt. Your body carries the feelings.

and your body doesn't want to open. So

obviously it's not over,

you know. So that's too is attraction.

It is one of the most popular things

that men whisper to me in silence, which

is they can't seem to get their and

listen, I'm saying men because my the

majority of my good friends that would

whisper to me are men. So it might be

the case for women too. I just can't

speak to that. is that they are unsure

how they could possibly be faithful for

a prolonged period of time

um and have one partner for a prolonged

period of time. I think that you would

be an interesting thing to tell your men

friends.

Women get bored with monogamy much

sooner than men.

Really? Yes. That's not what men think.

No. men think she's not interested in

sex

and what they should probably replace it

with is that she's not interested in the

sex she's can she's going to have

in order to want sex it needs to be sex

that is worth wanting

for women to remain interested it needs

to be interesting

and so the fact that women don't

necessarily experience the same

liberties at least historically and

culturally all over the world that men

do. So they remain in their homes and

they are not as unfaithful because

there's been a double standard around

infidelity forever everywhere in the

world. For this particular friend of

mine, where is that message? What what

should I say to him when he says, "How

can you be satisfied with one sexual

partner?" That's literally just so you

know that I'm not just I believe you.

But some people at home might think that

it's like me as a proxy of um but but

maybe you're not. Maybe you're not.

Maybe you want to have more partners.

Maybe you want your partner to have

other partners, too. That's not always

so the case, right? He doesn't want to

lose her. That's right. They've been

together I think 25 years. So, you know,

it won't you may have sometimes

frustrations if you there's a few

options, right? You either say we have a

relationship that can welcome other

people. We're not exclusive. But she's

going to leave then

because she doesn't want that. Okay. So

then the next thing is as best as you

can make it as interesting and as fun

and as pleasurable as it can be. And my

first question to you is have you been

doing the same old for god knows how

many years? And with that in mind I

wouldn't be surprised that you're not

that attracted or that she's not that

interested for that matter.

So if you want to be satisfied or more

satisfied,

I mean you have a dialogue you know and

the more satisfied means

bring more of yourself and and and make

this experience more erotic, more

pleasurable, more playful, more

fulfilling.

You may remain frustrated and you may

say I would love to have other people

and for that matter maybe your partner

wants would would want it too but that's

not the kind of relationship that she

wants. That doesn't mean she hasn't

thought about other people and it

certainly wouldn't mean that if she

fantasizes she fantasizes about you. So

everybody is keeping their secrets here

you know. Um, and then the next thing

is, are you putting more emphasis on the

fact that you're not as satisfied having

one sexual partner, or are you putting

more focus on the fact that you're going

to make this sexual experience with your

partner as pleasurable and rich as can

be? If you find yourself more on the

complaining side, then you're going to

be constantly more unsatis dissatisfied.

I think much of it is actually he and

many others want the best of all worlds.

And in life, we're not willing to accept

trade-offs. Yeah. So, and you're saying

you're saying make a decision. If you

want that life, then be honest about

that life. If you don't want that life,

then

invest in that thing to make it better.

Yeah. That's the other alternative. Be

bored with the food you eat. Go buy

other food and and and and cook at home

and make it more rich and more

interesting. If you don't want to have

the same dinner every night in the

house, the question is what are people

doing to make their relationships more

vibrant, more erotic, more alive? I mean

this is really you by the way it's not

about having more sex. You can have more

sex and and not feel much. It's about

making it more alive and vibrant. That

is what much of my work is about is

cultivating the eroticism and the

aliveness in relationships

on the on the personal front. And you

ask people what do you do to make it

rich and interesting and and you find

the laziness, the complacency, the

constant same old same old and then the

complaint about it and then you say that

is that is really self-defeating. Are

you frustrated with people as No, I

smile at it. I I I I just I I smile at

the the way that we can lie to

ourselves.

I smile at the way we can complain about

others and as if that we have no

implication. I smile at the way we don't

want to take responsibility for actually

getting the things that we really want.

You must see the same patterns over and

over again. those ones I do not all but

this kind of pattern which is actually

why I've expanded to from only working

in the romantic sphere to working also

in the workplace because relationships

are richer than just this and I think

that this friend I would have a five

minute conversation with him and I would

ask him these very questions

I would ask the partner also those very

questions

and I would have a few ideas. It's not

uber complicated. You going to record me

to him? No, I'm just Okay.

What would you say to him? What's his

name? I I should call it name. Let's

call him John. John.

So, yes, John. It's we are we are not

necessarily uh curious only about one

partner. Many people would like to have

other partners. in the context of your

relationship that is not an option for

you as I understand. So if that is the

situation and you really deeply care

about your partner and your relationship

with her, then the next question is

what do you do to energize your

relationship to bring playfulness,

curiosity, imagination,

eroticism as in life force, as in

aliveness, not as in sex to your

relationship? Are you bringing the

leftovers home and the best of yourself

goes to work or are you also bringing

your creativity, your energy, your

curiosity to your relationship? My sense

is that if you do that, there is a good

chance that you will actually have a

more satisfying erotic connection with

your partner. That doesn't mean you

won't have interest, curiosity,

fantasies about others, but it will free

you from this position in which you just

kind of say, "I'm bored. I'm not

satisfied. I would like a little more

diversity." And all of that. And just

for you, do not imagine that you're the

only one in your relationship who thinks

this way and wants this. It's just that

you may have a partner who doesn't want

the consequences of it. That doesn't

mean she wouldn't fantasize about the

plurality herself.

I'm going to send that. Um, please

listen

to the ad hoc intervention.

Yeah. Just need a honest response. Have

you ever done that

on your podcast? And Pel said, "Women

are often more quickly bored with

monogamy than men." And that is the

secret that people do not understand.

That means that in order for her to

remain engaged, it has to remain more

engaging and interesting and fun and

pleasurable. And if it's just to get it

done and just to do it for the sake of

doing it, then she really can often

spare it. And while men are much more

able to remain actually contrary to what

he describes to remain interested that

doesn't mean they don't want others as

well but they can remain more interested

in their partner without having to

change it like that. And it is

interpreted as women are less interested

in sex rather than women need more in

order to remain interested. They need

more of the emotional stuff. Not

necessarily. Not only they need more

imagination, more risque, more

connection, more attention, more of a

lot of whatever is hurt thing. Right.

Okay. It's it's one of the the most

important things I learned actually that

that kind of turned it around for me

because once you begin to look at it

like that, it it plays with this classic

gender division. Men want, women

doesn't. It's boring. It's it's like it

becomes true just because we say it all

the time, but that doesn't mean it is.

This is true for a lot of these gendered

things. Um, so my friend replied and the

essence of what they said, yes, he said,

"She's right. Full stop. The intimacy in

our relationship has died and it died so

long ago that I think part of me doesn't

feel like I can revive it anymore. We're

so used to the relationship being off."

Okay, put the put the mic on. Okay.

Yep. All right, John, here's what I

would suggest. Um, I think that you can

just simply say I, you know, Steve

approached me and asked me if I had a

question for Estelle and I just threw

out this thing. At first I was just kind

of flippant about it. I just thought

what do you do when you you know but in

fact when she answered I realized you

know that this is a bigger thing between

us and this is an emptiness and a gap

that we allowed to create and that I

have contributed to and I don't just

want to leave it at that. So I thought

I'm going to sit down and actually write

to you. I want to just write some of my

thoughts because uh I think when we sit

we avoid the subject, we circle around

it or I avoid it or I'm defensive about

it or anyway whatever it is that I've

done. I don't know you enough, John, to

know the details of that. And then you

just really say, you know, something

died a long time ago and I feel awkward

about it, but I miss it and I miss you

and I miss us. And I would like to know

if you are willing to re-engage with me

and for us to rekindle. It's desire goes

through intermittent eclipses. It's like

the moon. It disappears, but it can

reappear. And I would love to invite you

to re-engage with me to bring back the

light, the spark inside of us because we

can do it. We are more than just this.

And because just living side by side, I

don't think is going to be enough for

either of us. And I'm prepared to do my

part. Would you be willing to do yours?

That was beautiful.

That was beautiful. And then let's see

if it still answers us before we end.

I made the biggest investment I've ever

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Stan Store if you use that link. Your

next move could quite frankly change

everything. Are you hearing a lot of

couples in your practice increasingly

say either member of the couple that

they don't like having sex?

Not more than before. I wrote a book 20

years ago that was all about the dilemas

of desire. You've always heard it. I

always heard it. No, I don't think that

there are fundamental changes around

that. I think the changes are the fact

that people are spending less for time

together where they are actually

attentive to each other. They're half

there. Their attention is fragmented.

They're multitasking all the time. The

that's what is changing. And if you have

less connection, less attention, less

intimacy, less in why do you think that

people are suddenly going to be turned

on? But is the sex getting less

interesting? No. Their life with each

other is less interesting.

And this the last time when I spoke to

you like this, you told me why you

shouting at me.

Their life is less interesting. The sex

is the is the consequence of of seven

other things before. God, they haven't

said anything interesting to each other.

They haven't laughed. They haven't

kissed each other. They haven't looked

at each other. They haven't barely

touched each other. And suddenly the

text the sex needs to be you know all

hot and and and and passionate on what

freaking basis.

Their life is not interesting.

Their communication, their interaction,

their conversations, their attention to

each other, the fact that they matter,

the fact that their presence means

something in each other's lives, that's

what is all connected to long-term sex.

Long-term sex doesn't come just for

because you I look at you and I'm and

I'm all hot.

it it it's a different mechanism.

So you're asking a question that happens

here and I am telling you if all of this

is rather boring and uh unengaged.

It's like at work you know I'm doing a

lot of this stuff around work now. It's

like if the engagement is low on what

basis do we think people are going to

perform?

The performance is here, but the

performance is a response to the

engagement, which is a response to the

culture, which is a response to the

quality of the relationships between the

people who work together. It's the same

in the personal realm.

What element of responsibility do I have

in making sure that my relationship with

myself is great in order to have a great

relationship with someone else? Cuz a

lot of people like to blame. I think the

premise is inaccurate. Okay, fix my

premise. The premise is that it it's

time for us to begin to question the

intense level of individualism

and self

thinking, self-love, self-care,

self-fululfillment, self-awareness. It's

all about the self in front. And the

presumption is that if all those levels

of the self have been attended to, we

will be better able to attend to other

people. So, what do you think about this

culture of self-care and self-love? And

I think it's gone overboard.

I think it's it's a distortion.

I think it feeds consumerism. I think

that there's a lot of elements of it

that are highly important. But we have

completely lost the fact that what

actually is at the root of well-being,

happiness, longevity, meaning is in our

relationships and our connections with

others as well as with ourselves. When

you give to others, you will depressed.

When you are when you feel like you make

a difference in other people's life, it

makes you feel better chemically too. If

you go on the street and you make some

you give compliments to people and you

tell them that they look really great or

this this beautiful what they're wearing

and you've made a smile on someone's

face, your oxytocin levels go up too.

Doing for others makes us feel better

about ourselves as well. Not all the

time and not every circumstance but that

voluntary connecting and and and being

engaged with other people whereas being

engaged with oneself. Have you seen at

the gym how people are super engaged

with themselves lifting and but nobody's

interacting with anybody.

And many of these people go home and

there's nobody there. Huh? It's not like

they're doing this for someone that

that's waiting for them. Relating to

yourself is not a goal in and of itself.

It is a step to something, but it's not

in and of itself an achievement. The

goal is relating to others.

The goal is is yes, is having meaningful

relationships, meaningful connections

with other people and other causes that

are beyond yourself. Part of why we are

so miserable and so unhappy and so is

because we are so constantly focused on

ourselves.

There's a world, there's nature, there's

politics, there's climate, there's

people, there's poverty, there is a ton

of things to be interested in. There's

art, there's creativity, there's a lot

of things that are beyond us that is

beyond maximizing and optimizing and

hacking and focusing on myself and naval

gazing.

And I am a therapist and I work with

individuals who I am helping to have a

better relationship with themselves and

deal with what stands in the way to

relate to others not what stands in the

way to feel good about me period. With

gender roles reversing, have you seen

men get increasingly emasculated by the

success of women in your practice? And

have you seen also the woman get sort of

frustrated with the man because he's now

not the bread winner? There was this

stat I saw that said again rough numbers

70% of women expect the man to be the

bread bread winner. But then there's

this bigger social narrative that

actually no 50/50 or you know equality

is the case. Um and I was sat here with

a guy who runs runs the men and boys

clinic. I think it's called the men and

boys institute or something. Richard

Reeves. Mhm. and Richard Reeves was a

stay-at-home dad and then his partner,

you know, and doing all of this work

about men in equality that, you know, a

self-proclaimed feminist, I believe, and

then his wife turned around to him one

day and was like,

you know, and I've heard this quite a

lot. I've heard from my successful

female friends that part of the reason

they think they can't find a man is that

men feel emasculated by their success.

And on the counterpoint, I'm wondering

if it goes the other way. Can I take

this a little differently? Sure, please.

Whatever. Emasculation is a word that

doesn't exist in the feminine.

It's always been a masculine concern.

Which is part of why I said to you that

masculinity is an identity that

constantly has to prove itself. Mhm. If

it was so solid, it wouldn't have to

constantly have to show you that it

really is serious and it's it's the real

thing. There is, you know, those things

do not translate on the feminine side.

The word loser doesn't exist in the

feminine either.

And this is historical. This is not new.

That men have had the challenge with

powerful women is not new. that women

have wanted men to be both powerful and

nurturing is not new. That fathers have

often been as tender toward their I

think that there's a the for me the the

the engagement with some of your

question is that it plays into a whole

discourse about men and women that at

this point somehow puts them completely

apart.

each one kind of more and more angry at

the other side. And I don't really want

to participate in that. The women are

talking about the useless this and the

men are talking about the [ __ ] that

and I don't find that helpful. People I

don't think it's true.

I think there are fathers and men all

over the world doing everything they can

to save their family, their wives, their

you know it has nothing to do just with

how much they earn. The world is filled

with people who want to give a better

life to their family and to their

children. Men who work day and night in

order to provide. And I think that to

turn this conversation into that section

that in that we are referring to is

true. It exists but it is not a fair

rendering of men, of masculinity, of

fathers, of brothers, of husbands

and of wives.

um that there is a group of women who

are out earning the men. Yes, women have

out earned men for a long time in all

kinds of industries, not just at the

higher levels. Um that men have stay

have not been home as primary parents. I

think gay couples have shown us a whole

new range. It's like it's time to kind

of move on a little bit. Do you know

when you say that we need to know how to

relate to each other? And I think you

said that it starts with being aware of

ourselves.

Is that roughly what you said that it

starts with having a sort of a

self-awareness of yourself? I think that

the it's a constant combination because

what I'm saying is that in order to have

self-awareness, you need to understand

your connection with others. Your

self-awareness is not developed here

alone by myself. You get to know

yourself through your relationships with

people. It is in the presence of another

that we discover ourselves. And this is

in part why I'm asking these questions

because I think for a lot of men, we've

understood who we are by how we relate

and the role we play for others

historically. So like I kind of

understand much of who I am when you see

me with my partner. Yeah. Because I will

grab the door. I will grab the bags. I

will help solve problems in a more

logical like I'm a very like tell me how

to fix it. And you understand the I

understand myself by being how I relate

to her. taking care of her is part of my

identity to me. So in in such a world, I

think the question becomes like what is

it to be what is it to be a man? And if

I don't know what that is, I find it

harder to relate to others. One of the

things I love to do, but that's not on a

societal level. That's me in my work.

when I do retreats, relationship

retreats like we have one that I'm going

to do in in October in Greece and and I

have I do fishbowls and I put all the

men in a fishbowl or all those who

identify as men for that matter and I

have the women just listen the people

around

and for an hour they or more or two they

talk about everything you just brought

up their challenges, their frustrations,

their hopes, their aspirations, their

loss. loses their self-doubt, their

shame, their shadows,

and people listen without judgment,

without opinions, just receive the the

gift of having somebody be willing to

expose themselves like that. It's

extremely moving. It's very beautiful

and you learn a ton. And you learn how

much of your projections are, you know,

standing in the way. how much you you

you make assumptions without really

knowing how hard it is to truly listen.

That's when it becomes to me beautiful,

worthwhile and and things change. Things

become softer and people start to weep

in front of total strangers and you

realize humanity is bigger than gender.

Gender is important, super important,

but there is another layer that is just

our humanity. And at this moment in our

society where there's tons of

uncertainties that connecting on the

human level to me supersedes some of

these gender wars. There's lots of it. I

don't and and I leave it to others to

comment on that. But my work is to

create alternative conversations, better

conversations. Are you hopeful?

Honestly, in those moments I'm very

hopeful. But are you hopeful when they

leave the retreat and they go back onto

the algorithms? I hope that some of them

will do that and some of them will

actually experience a profound change

you know but in the moment I feel like I

can do something I'm hopeful when I can

do something when I can contribute when

I can create something that's really

special that's you know I'm not hopeful

when I'm helpless when I'm passive so in

those moments I am hopeful because

something really beautiful is happening

you know when people connect at a deeper

level it is very very meaningful be it

at work or be it at home I mean it it's

anywhere at this point where I can

create these connections people I mean

it's sentence that I take with me all

over the all the time it's the quality

of your relationships will determine the

quality of your lives and my work is

about helping you have better

relationships be more confident be more

connected I I I can analyze a lot of

these statistics but I don't know what

to do with it. Be more confident. Yes.

What is confidence in that regard?

Confidence is when you are able to see

yourself as a flawed person and still

hold yourself in high regard.

That's from my friend Terry Real. But it

is a great definition of confidence.

It's not when I when I know when I'm

sure. It's none of that. It's actually

when I see myself as flawed

but I still hold myself in high regard

that means I'm confident. And is there

is there work one can do to get to such

a place? Yes, of course. Work and life

experience and maturity. But for a lot

of people their work and life experience

knocks them down to make them think

they're just a thought they're just a

flawed person.

That's what I thought when I was in my

20s and 30s too. And if I made a

mistake, I could obsess about it for 3

weeks. Now it's 3 hours, sometimes 3

days if it's really bad. But you know,

you do you you learn to accept you make

mistakes and life goes on and you try

again. So there's no shortcut to No, no,

no, no. Is there anything that builds on

itself? The nice thing about it is that

it builds on itself.

It adds layer by layer, step by step. Is

there anything one can do to accelerate

that process? Why?

So that we can become more confident

quicker. No, that's called arrogance.

When a when a when a 22 year old, you

know, sometimes it's arrogant. I mean

there listen, there are things you can

feel confident about very early on and

and you've tried them. And then there's

other things. It's also not I am

confident. I'm confident about certain

things. You can trust me on some things.

You should not trust me to get you to a

certain place. neither on time, neither

without getting lost. So I have zero

confidence in that area, but I'm quite

confident in some of the things that I

do. And confidence doesn't mean that I

know or that I'm right.

It's that I'm prepared to do things and

be mistaken and not know and try again.

Two different people can go through the

same experience and one of their

confidence can build and the other one

can lose confidence. Yes, that is the

biggest mystery question. Why two people

with the same story? For one, it becomes

what brings their resilience and what

gives them the drive and what makes them

be people that are engaged with life and

the world. And for the other person,

it's what broke them. It's what crushed

them. It's what that makes it so

impossible for them to actually put one

foot in front of the other. And if you

can ever tell me why this and versus

that, you know, why this person to it is

one of the great mystery questions for

any therapist for that matter in

general. Why the same circumstances

build the strength of one and become the

weakness of the other. There's clearly

some kind of a pair of sunglasses in

between what happened and how I

perceived it or something. There must be

some I you know there's a lots of things

but what we do know is that for many

people who have major adverse

circumstances but manage to turn use

them and turn them and and really make a

beautiful life for themselves. It

usually there was one defining factor

that differentiates them from everybody

else who had similar circumstances is

that they had somebody who believed in

them.

a coach, a teacher, a neighbor, not

necessarily a family member actually

because the adversity is often in the

family. So, somebody who believed in you

when you didn't believe in yourself and

didn't give up even when you were

[ __ ] up. I had um a lady called Dr.

Lisa Feldman on the podcast recently

who's a neuroscientist and one of the

things she said to me has really stayed

with me and I think about it a lot and I

talk about it a lot which is um she said

to me she told me the story of a young

lady who grew up and had some uh an

aggressive uncle who would like beat her

and this young lady she was good in

school she slept well everything was

fine and then many years later this

young lady was watching Oprah Winfreyy's

show and it was about domestic abuse and

there was women on there crying and

talking about their trauma and all those

things and essentially this young lady

suddenly started to experience the

symptoms of trauma. Mhm. Unproductive in

education, couldn't sleep as well and

visibly traumatized. The trauma hadn't

appeared hadn't there was wasn't

symptomatic up until she watched this

show with Oprah. And it made me think

that is there a possibility that some of

our trauma not all of it but some of it

is

like contagious i.e. We give meaning to

it when someone tells us the meaning of

what happened to us

like are we giving meaning to the things

that happened to us and it goes to what

we were saying here about you can go

through the same two thing but interpret

it differently do we inherit the meaning

externally from somewhere you know it's

interesting because I think about this a

lot with things like anxiety I'm like it

feels like you know I know the world has

changed and we're less connected but it

does feel like

had I not known that anxiety existed, I

probably I'm unsure whether I I would

have personally experienced it. I think

that the anxiety culture actually kind

of made me anxious. It made me label the

feeling. And I'm just wondering if you

have a perspective on this idea that we

like give meaning to

our experience and then that yes of

course all the time we give meaning to

everything. We are meaning making

machines and if you don't do an

individual meaning attribution you get a

collective cultural social attribution.

In our society we may call it anxiety.

In another society we may call it the

ancestors are unhappy.

Somebody is a spirit is knocking at your

door. Somebody has not been properly

mourned. Somebody is being um degraded.

So, so there's every every ill ease,

every disease

has a story, has a meaning, has an

attribution.

The words change.

That's on a cultural level. I think it's

very important to not just individualize

these things and think I give meaning.

You we give the meaning that our culture

has taught us to give. You've learn you.

So, you've kind of become you're part of

the anxiety generation. So you put you

give words of anxiety, stress, burnout.

There's a whole lingo that is that

didn't exist 40 years ago by the way. I

mean those words existed but they were

not nearly in the vernacular of the

moment. They were not part of the

therapy speak of dour you know they were

not on Tik Tok. So there were other

words that were people used and you know

every century has certain names.

Hysteria we don't hear much about

hysteria these days. That was a 19th

century thing. It's mental health now,

you know. So, we changed the words, but

we still are trying to give meaning to

our

ill ease. I guess this is a question of

identity as well, which is who do I

think I am? And who I think I am will

probably become who I am, at least as it

relates to relating to people. No, no.

Who do you think you are is part of who

you are and how other people see you is

also a part of who you are. We are

constantly looking at ourselves from the

inside and from the outside.

We do not exist without the inter in

integration of also the gaze from the

outside in. And it's a two-way street

all the time. So if I think I'm a late

person, you said, you know, get there on

time. Um, then I'm likely to be late

off more because I can I've identified

with that becomes part of my character.

It starts to become how I predict my

future. And Lisa Filmore was saying to

me that the brain is this prediction

machine. So it's like predicting um what

to what it will do next based on the

past. So my identity is like a

prediction of what I'll become. And you

know, same I think of this maybe the

same in relationships. Your behavior may

be a prediction but that doesn't mean

your identity.

Don't confuse identity with behavior.

It's it's it's they are connected but

your identity is a lot more than your

behavior.

You know at GFK there are three lines at

the airport. Yeah. One is for the

tourist, one is for the American

passport holder and one is for the

resident alien.

The tourist may have been living in the

states for years, but they don't have

the papers. So the internal definition

is not recognized by the external. The

American, you may have been living your

whole life abroad, but you were born in

the US. So you have the papers, you have

the external recognition, but the

internal one doesn't match. And then the

resident alien is the one who has been

there a long time but doesn't have the

is a guest of some sort right um and I

find that a fascinating moment to

understand identity when you stand there

what is internal what is external what

is seen from other how others recognize

you and think and how others define who

you are and how you define who you are

and these these are conversations

that the question that you're asking

about trauma is a whole it's a different

question because

the trauma is not the event itself.

The trauma is often in the experience of

the event without an empathic witness

without in it. Yes. Without what makes

an event traumatic is often the fact

that you experience something without an

emphatic witness.

Well, it's not the fact that the the the

you it's not the event itself. And so

what happens is she sees this Oprah show

and it's not just that she sees the

women tell their stories but she sees

Oprah with her unique kind of empathy

respond to the women and give value to

their experience and acknowledge it and

express the sadness that comes with it

and the devastation that they may have

experienced. And she she is the

consumate empathic witness who gives not

just meaning to your story but because

before you can give meaning you even

have to acknowledge it. Mhm. You have to

recognize that it even happened. And in

many of those situations it's the lack

of acknowledgement that is the most

traumatic. Not the thing itself

or not only the thing itself the fact

that nobody even admits that this took

place. So as she's watching this

empathic resonance in front of her,

something opens inside of her that

allows her to finally

recogn cry, you know, her do her own

acknowledgement and realize what was

done to her.

That's a different way of interpret and

I have no idea if that is true. But just

to give you another reading of what may

have happened to this woman. Mhm. And

for a while she will not sleep. And for

a while she because suddenly

in order to finally come to admit

something you need to feel safe to let

it happen. And when you watch the opera

show with those women this is I just did

the opera. So I I had the people and I

see how she it's it's an amazing moment

of being held and experiencing a

container that allows you to experience

the pain that you've been holding in.

interesting.

I I was it's a very interesting um

alternative perspective especially this

idea of this the empathic witness and

the minute you see empathy shown to your

experience um in such a way yeah maybe

you have permission to feel in a way

that you didn't get to feel but also in

that environment I imagine there was a

studio audience and they were providing

empathy and there was Oprah and they

were providing empathy and then you had

someone she could relate to who in that

scenario was

being held and had a label like an

implicit label attached to their

experience. But she does it without

audience now. And um it's it's I think

it was a long time ago. So when she used

to have her show many decades ago, I was

my first time on the opera show in ' 87.

87 with a studio audience. Yeah. How was

it? It wasn't

a very powerful experience for a woman,

a young woman as I was back then. It was

just like what? Yeah. This is quite

embarrassing for me to admit. But if you

know me well, there's something that you

know about me which is a function of my

personality and that is that I lose

everything. I've lost my wallet. I've

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when you lose your wallet overseas, as I

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why I'm so happy that our show sponsor

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linkedin.com/diary.

So, if I made you president of the

entire world and your job was to prevent

the the social atrophy, this decay of

social connections and relationships and

you had to take three steps on a global

basis to they can be drastic steps. You

can delete mobile phones. Oh god. They

can be any drastic step you want to

take. I think that things are lived in

the details, not in the big things.

Okay? You know, where was I recently? I

went to a place and I remember making

the comment. Everybody says hello.

People said hello. People were friendly

when you when you went into a place,

when you were on the street, when you

went it was like I said, "Oh my god, I

have I I have not been in a place." It

felt small enough but it wasn't small

where people kept saying hello have a

nice day this looks very good you know

so it's that basic you make it a law you

have to say no I don't legislate these

things at all I think it's more of a of

a it's a cultural shift it's a it's a

return to to to practices that still are

prevalent in many other parts of the

world talking to strangers Yes. Talking

to strangers. Okay. So, you're going to

make it illegal. It's an incredible

thing to talk to strangers. Um, so

Esteel makes it illegal not to talk to

strangers during illegal. No. No. I said

don't bring the law into it. It's much

more art than law. Anybody who these

days can make people laugh or sing

together is doing holy work.

So go sing with people or go because

when you sing together you create you

create a collective resonance. You you

actually are bringing that resonance

that it is very empathic. It's very

kind. It's compassionate. It's caring.

It's playful. It brings out a whole set

of other things in people.

And the third thing would be teach

people how to have conflict. You asked

me before when when when when you argue

with your with your partner. I think I

think that the the majority of our

arguments are about three basic things.

And this is based on on Howard Markman's

work, but you know, it's not the issue

you're fighting about.

Actually, what you can often ask is what

is it that you're fighting for? And what

people fight for when they argue

whatever thing they're having a spat

about. They fight for power and control.

Who makes the decision? And whose

priorities matter most? They fight for

trust, for care and closeness. Can I

trust you? Do you have my back? Can I

lean on you? Can I rely on you? Will you

show up for me? And they fight for

respect and recognition. Do you value

me? Do I matter? And does this all

translate to work? You've you've now

started doing a lot more work with

businesses and companies around sort of

their working culture and connection and

relationships in the workplace. All of

those things you just listed there, are

they also the reasons why our

relationships are successful or

unsuccessful in a work environment?

Absolutely. So I actually have been

working with corporations and in the

business world for quite a while um and

have been talking in and speaking in for

with corporations and companies. What is

new is that I I became an advisor to a

number of companies in particular in

this case with culture amp and and the

reason that became such a wonderful

collaboration is because I brought my

clinical expertise and they're bringing

massive amounts of data science people

science 1.5 billion experience survey

points. I mean it's just like so it's

not no longer just my intuitive sense.

It's backed. It's

And we created this card game because my

original card game, people wanted the

corporate was demanding for it, but

every time they had to take out the

cards with the pink triangles, which

were the sex questions in order to make

it work safe,

safe for work. So I said, "Okay, let's

create a game just for the workplace

that will create meaningful

relationships at work." And what's

fascinating is that what the research

showed is that there are four major

relational pillars that actually sustain

this quality of relationships in the

workplace and they are directly

connected to these three things that I

said we fight for. So one was trust, one

was belonging. Okay. So on trust, how do

I know what what is trust in specific

terms? What does that mean? Trust is a

leap of faith.

Trust is a sense that that is really