Hey everyone, welcome to my weekend

special. I hope you enjoy the show. Hit

that like button and be sure to

subscribe to the YouTube channel so you

never miss my show, whether it's

Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday. Here's

our first guest.

All right, welcome back to the show,

everybody. I try to make it a practice

not to have a lot of attorneys on the

show. It's just sort of a rule of thumb.

I'm just kidding to all my attorney

listeners. But in this case, this man's

work is so good. And I mean this, I

sought him out. I like when I see a

relatively new face on the scene that is

doing work that is not like everybody

else's, that it's his own, and that I

believe his work can dramatically impact

your life from a productivity

standpoint, a peace of mind standpoint,

an influence standpoint. And he's got a

book out right now called The Next

Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. And

I consider him, and I don't say this

often, to be a communication expert. And

you will see that reveal itself

throughout the next hour. You are going

to learn so much and take so many notes

today from Jefferson Fischer. Jefferson,

welcome to the show finally, brother.

>> And thank you so much for having me. I

am truly honored to to be here. It's a

it's a pinch me moment. It's great to

meet you, man.

>> Yeah, likewise. I uh I have to tell you,

my two kids, my son's a professional

golfer, my daughter's a junior in

college, and I sort of had three things

I wanted them to leave my house with

when they were little. I wanted them to

leave with their faith because in there

is sort of their morals and ethics and

values. I wanted them to leave with a

bunch of self-confidence

which I think under that if you got

confidence you'll work hard. But the

third thing that surprises most people

is I wanted them to leave me with

worldclass ability to communicate.

>> I believe it's a separator in our world

today. And what you teach and the way

you teach it is as good as I've ever

seen it before, brother. And so I kind

of want to get into this. The book's

awesome, by the way. Okay, I read it in

about a day and a half. It's awesome. Uh

my note version of it, by the way. But I

want let's just start out kind of like

with argument stuff. Okay, you're you're

an attorney by trade. First off, are you

still practicing? That's a and then

inside that answer kind of one of the

big rules of the book is never win an

argument. But I'm like, isn't that sort

of the job of an attorney? So, help me

navigate those two things at once.

>> Yeah. Well, one is I am still

practicing. I am slowly learning how to

transition out of that. I have a

wonderful team. I'm able to delegate a

lot of my cases, but right now I'm

almost more of a a leverage chip in

settlements. It's kind of this weird

thing where uh jurors uh know me and so

judges and court staff know my content

and so being involved is also

advantageous in certain ways. But slowly

learning to develop and um be in this

space like we were talking about. So,

it's it's getting there. Second of all,

what do attorneys do? How you're

supposed to win every argument. You're

an attorney. Oh, you must win a lot of

arguments. It's an absolute lie. And

I'll tell you why. You may get to choose

your client. Do I sign this person up?

Do I not sign this person up? But you

don't get to choose your facts. You

don't get to choose the law. You don't

get to choose the evidence. And so, what

you have to do is it's really more about

giving the facts a voice. You're being

an advocate for your client's story, for

their position, for their perspective of

how something happened and so is the

other side doing the same thing. I don't

get to choose the facts, the evidence.

Instead, what I have to do is advocate

and then it is up to the judge to apply

that law to the evidence for the jury to

determine. So to say we win arguments,

that's just not true. A lot of the times

the law is what does it for us. You just

follow what the law says. You might be

on the good side of it and the losing

side of it, so to speak, but it's not a

win-loss thing.

>> What about with another human being? Why

would you write a book about

communication and argue less, talk more,

but then really rule one is don't win?

Is that more of a mindset thing? Is that

what you mean when I approach a

conversation with somebody? Or is that

you literally mean that don't try to win

an argument?

>> I literally mean that. If you go into it

always just wanting to win the argument,

you will lose something else that is far

more valuable every time. When I'm

arguing in front of a judge, uh, and the

other side's arguing, again, there's

case law, there's a statute, there's a a

law that is applying to this, and they

just I might have more precedent than

the other person, and they can't compete

against that. It doesn't mean that their

argument wasn't any better. But you get

into, especially in the courtroom, this

feeling of, well, I have to win a lot of

trials. Listen, if you haven't lost

trials, you haven't tried enough trials.

That's just the way it goes. If you want

to spot somebody who's inexperienced,

they haven't lost enough. Um, but the

mindset to it is much more impactful in

every listener's world right now that if

you find that every book you read, every

blog that you see is something that how

to win every argument, it's it's lying

to you. Because what you're going to do

when you have that mentality is you're

going to lose the relationship. You're

going to lose their respect. They're

going to close themselves off from you.

You're going to be less approachable.

You're going to lose quality of your

reputation if all you seek to do is win

every argument.

>> What if you're with someone who does try

to do that? So, let's start out. His

content, you guys, is so specific is

what I like about it. It's not just

general principles. There's actually

real phrasiology, real words where

perhaps you are the secondary person is

what I would call it. So you could be

husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend,

friend, boss, and person they supervise,

but one has sort of asserted the

superior position in a conversation, if

that makes sense. Almost like they're

always teaching you a lesson or they're

in the control position. Is there a way

to sort of wrestle's the wrong word, but

re-establish pecking order or at least

equality in a convers? You know what I

mean when I say that that you have the

people that in your life that talk to

you as if they're the expert on

everything, you're not. They're in

charge, you're not. They're picking the

restaurant, you're not.

>> Is there a way when someone has that

dynamic with you to change that dynamic?

I I started with one of the hard

questions first because I think more

people find themselves invisible pecking

order conversations almost than maybe

they realize.

>> Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say

it's if it's one-on-one much harder

because

this person has constructed their whole

identity most likely to this facade. If

it is, let's say you're in a meeting and

that person's trying to establish the

pecking order, the other people will

change the dynamic for you. You don't

have to push back. You just can't be

pushed over. let's say one-on-one with

this conversation with somebody who

feels like they're more dominant.

Biggest thing you're going to do is just

not be pushed over. Meaning, you're not

going to continue to chase everything

that they say. You're not going to push

back because they're looking for that

threat. We call it water off a duck's

back where anything that somebody says,

you can just say, "Okay, noted. I got

it. No, if I have any questions, I'll

ask." This ability to kind of be in the

in the pocket in your communication. The

temptation is we want to compete with

them. Oh, you just went skydiving. Oh,

that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you

know, uh, Ed, Ed's great. Yeah, you need

to. And they start to compete with one

another of how many names they can drop.

Uh, how many experiences they can share.

But all that does is show more and tells

more about their insecurity than it does

really about any kind of true substance.

Let's say, let's just use the word

alphas or the people that are very

confident in the communication, the

conversation typically say much less.

You've been in those meetings where the

person who always has their two cents,

the person who always has something to

say is the person most likely the least

removed from the actual true

conversation of what's happening. They

have to tell you so much so that you can

know how smart they are. The real top

dog is the person that's the most quiet.

And when that person speaks, everybody's

quiet and everybody listens. So

insecurities are very loud. Confidence

is very quiet. You say that about

leaders too. It struck me where you said

actually great leaders learn to say more

with literally fewer words than the

non-leader. You believe that's one of

the traits of a great communicator of a

leader. Correct.

>> Correct. Good leaders respond in

conversation. Great leaders leave room

for conversation. So when there is this

mentality that the leader has to say,

I'm captain of this ship and everybody

should know it. Oh, who do you think

you're talking to? And they need to

correct and and drive traffic and go go.

The best leaders are ones that they

don't have to prove everything. Insecure

people feel like they have to prove.

They have to say a whole lot just so you

believe that they're smart. Confident

people know that. Great leaders already

know that. They're the ones that have

this calm energy. In my view, the the

best leaders have a calm energy about

them when they're on the floor of

whatever is happening instead of this

erratic, you know, what's going on.

Okay, we need to do this and and they

start shouting and getting mad and

yelling at people versus the person who

comes on the floor and goes, okay, what

do we need to do next? What's happening

next? Instead of blame, it's where are

we moving forward? So, driving the

conversation in a way that sets

authority. People are looking for

anchors in conversation. Same thing in

their everyday business. Employees,

supervisors, whoever it is, they're

looking for the anchors in their

organization and same in everyday

conversation. So, you have to find the

way to be confident enough to be the

anchor.

>> Well, they're so good. You buy the way

you exhibit that. By the way, from the

minute we flipped the camera on, even

before we went live, there's a

deliberate calmness to the way in which

you listen. You actually listen calmly.

It's one of the things I noticed about

you instantaneously when the camera went

on. Most of you don't know this because

I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in

college was actually broadcasting. And

so, it's amazing that God had this way

30 years later to create podcasts and

then I was able to take advantage of

that background. But one of the things

you have to learn in broadcasting when

you write your copy is to write things

with fewer words because you have to

deliver segments in these little bites

of time. And that taught me to

communicate with fewer words, saying the

same thing other people take more words

to do. And I do believe that that's an

effective use. If you watch

communicators, there fewer words they

use. It's almost like someone watching

on broadcasting. I want to make sure

everybody gets the book, too, cuz we're

going into a lot of stuff. It's the next

conversation. Argue less, talk more.

What if you're with somebody who

I used it earlier, but I want to go a

little bit deeper. They pick on you.

they kind of gnaw at you a little bit.

You know, everything is almost um

passive aggressive in the way they say

things and you find yourself

almost being put down subtly when you

communicate with this person. And I find

this an awful lot lately with couples

that are friends of mine, married

couples. There's this subtle dynamic

where they both are a little bit

passive aggressive with one another and

the way they communicate and I I feel

empathy for the one that I think is the

one receiving most of the aggression. Is

there something you can do when you feel

like someone's communicating with you

that way? Is there a phraseiology or a

or a strategy for that? Let's separate

into two different categories. So, one,

let's say, is kind of this more just

passive aggressive bucket. The other is

let's ramp it up to somebody being a

little bit more overtly disrespectful or

rude. So in this first bucket, this

passive aggressive, these are people

that most likely just have grown up that

way. This is what they saw mirrored uh

conversation and arguments throughout

their life and they don't know how to

express that kind of thing. So when they

slide in that negative comment that you

know there's something to that a simple

question of like should I read into that

or is there more to that or I and this

goes for Chris Foss a dear friend and he

I love his his question is sounds like

you have a reason for saying that. I

love that phrase. I I also love sounds

like there's more to that. So, anytime

you can just quickly ask, "Sounds like

there's more to that or ask them,"

should I read into that? That tends to

draw out the passive aggressiveness

because they're not expecting you to

kind of call them to the floor. On the

flip side, if somebody is saying more

aggressive things towards you, my

recommendation is begin your question

with, "Did you mean did you mean for

that to sound rude? Did you say that to

embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt

my feelings?

uh did you say that to offend me? It

when you say did you mean

it is twofold. One, it's giving them the

grace of perhaps they said it in a way

they did not mean and it's going to

allow them to fix it. Like uh at least

with me and my wife, if we're texting

and something seems like it's off,

instead of it saying, you know, why are

you being so short? What's wrong?

>> Yeah. Yeah. the question. I ask the

question, did you mean for that to sound

short?

>> Instantly, almost every time

>> my, you know, it is like the, "Oh, no,

no, no, no. Sorry. I'm picking up the

kids or I, you know, I was checking out

the grocery store. I getting gas." You

know, you you get that that K or K. And

you're like, "Oh, okay. I guess I guess

they hate me right now. All right. Like,

I guess they're in a mood." And then you

naturally get in a mood. And then you

respond defensively, which causes them

to respond offensively. And now you're

convinced. you've convinced yourself

you're under attack. So, it's this um

this feedback loop that's not helpful to

you. So, when you begin with did you

mean it's a great way to set somebody to

one give them that grace of fixing it,

but two, it's calling attention to what

they were wanting to do. Did you say

that to to embarrass me? Did you say

that to to offend me? It is uh or did

you mean for that to sound rude? like

that is a very quick way to address it

out in the open and if they're going to

double down on it or not.

>> Will you do that in re by the way, this

is so good. Will you do that in reverse

if you feel that what you've said has

been misinterpreted? In other words, if

you feel like you're I do this better in

business than I do personal life, to be

honest with you, in personal life, I

think I just let everything out the

window that I know that are tools, which

is so stupid. When it comes to business,

I'm pretty good at this. with friends

and family, I devolve into the most

emotionally immature person sometimes.

But so let's say we have gone back and

forth and maybe I've said something

the other way that they're hurt by. Will

you slow a conversation down, for

example, and say something like, "What

did you hear me say?" How will you

handle that if the person is now coming

back at you for something they believe

you said that's passive aggressive or

demeaning or rude?

>> Awesome question. This happens all the

time, especially in relationships, but

I'd say even work too when somebody

tells you something. You've been in that

situation where somebody is going,

"That's not what you said. You said

this." And they kind of give a voice

that doesn't even sound like your voice

and gives a

>> intonation and and you're like, "I

didn't even say it like that." And all

of a sudden now you're going, "That's

not what I said. I didn't say it like

that." You're just pushing what you

thought you conveyed. And nine times out

of ten it is inaccurate because what is

said is not always what's received. So

instead of this that's not what I said.

Um you are going to ask the question

what did you hear? What did you hear?

Because now it's not about what I am

putting out. I am now getting curious of

what you heard because that's what

matters. anytime you had that kind of

confrontation or that miscommunication

instead of going, "No, no, no, no,

that's not what that's not what I said."

And kind of dismissing their whole

experience or their perspective. Uh, by

the way, it's very hard to to judge.

It's like making your own movie but not

having an audience and going, "No, no,

no, that's not how the movie goes." It's

like nobody else has seen it. Only

you're the one who thinks it's that way.

So, when you ask the question, "What did

you hear?" and they explain it, that's

when you can say, "That was not my

intent." or I apologize for that

impression. Or I would recommend is

begin your sentence with I can see like

I can see how you'd feel that way. I can

see how that come off.

>> You know, whenever you say um you know,

I I can see why you'd feel that way. I

can see why uh that would upset you.

That I can see just says, hey, I took a

second to walk over to where you're

standing and I turn to look the same way

that you're looking and I can confirm,

yeah, what you see is reasonable. What

you see is justified. You know what?

That makes sense. I can see that. That

right there just goes. It naturally

takes down the aggression. This I have

to win. You have to see it what I see.

Anytime you can do that and use words of

perspective, uh like view, perspective,

see. Um that is going to help somebody

go, "Oh, I feel heard. Oh, I feel

understood." And by that, they're going

to be more receptive to the progress.

>> This is so good, you guys. Just so you

know when you're listening to this, the

reason I wanted Jefferson on and the

reason I think there should be more work

in this topic is there's like only two

or three people in the world that even

discuss this stuff and it it may be in

the top three most important things in

life to be able to communicate your

point and to be able to overcome

adversity and a conversation and a a

difficulty and maintain or extend

relationships. This is not stuff that's

taught anywhere yet. It should be. And

what do you do?

Gosh, I I I'm thinking of a situation I

have with a friend who and I I don't

remember this being in the book, so this

will be a tough one. They go they go

silent on you. In other words, the

conversation is going a particular way

and I don't know, maybe it's me. I do

start to win and maybe they can feel it,

you know, like and they just get quiet

and I'm like, "Are you still there?

Hello." Yeah. Is there something you

would say to re-engage somebody who's

given you the silent treatment or gone

cold on you or every time a conversation

gets to a certain point, they just

disengage completely? Or is your

suggestion don't let it get to that

point by using some of these tactics and

strategies? But is there a way when they

disengage and go quiet that you can

bring them back in?

>> Yeah. Where here's where you go wrong is

when somebody's given you that silent

treatment. There's this temptation that

we started to say ugly things. Like in

romantic relationships, you'll you'll

start to kind of say hurtful things in

hopes that they bite back cuz all you're

wanting is just to feel like you're not

alone. So, you're wanting that

engagement. That happens sometimes in

toxic relationships. Now, there are

techniques that we can use to not get to

that point, but let's say you're already

there. Let's say you're already they're

they're um they're distanced from you.

There's nothing you're going to be able

to say, nothing you can do physically to

just grab that person and say, "Come

back to the conversation." Highlights

the importance of not letting it get to

that point.

>> But what I would recommend is if

somebody is giving that distance, you

give them that distance. So maybe it's a

day, maybe it's two days because what

it's highlighting for you is that you're

wanting the conversation just to hear

yourself. You have not been in the

conversation to hear the other person.

And when they are taking the time,

sometimes that is needed. Sometimes

there's wisdom in that of taking the

time to think and disengage and give it

a break. And if you need to um then what

I would say is you message that person,

you leave a voicemail for that person.

if they don't respond to your call and

say, "Hey, I feel like we're miles

away." It's important to use distances.

Uh, I like using distances in

conversation. So, you feel a mile away

from me right now, or I feel like we're

50 yards apart. Whenever you use

distances, it's a great way of saying,

"Hey, um, of saying you can feel that

we're off instead of saying, "Hey,

what's wrong with you?" Or, "Hey, you

seem off or you um wh what's going on?

What's wrong?" when you can use

distances of um I feel like you're far

away from me right now.

>> I at least I do that even in um my my

life is a great way of not getting them

defensive. But you call them say, "Hey,

I feel like we're far away. I'd really

like to to get closer. I want to find a

way that we can talk again." Or, "Hey,

just letting you know I'm here. Wanting

to talk to you. I hope to see you hope

to hear from you soon." any way that you

just say,"I am not trying to pressure

this at all because you need to give

them that space to continue to think

about it." Or you can also say, "Hey, I

think it was smart of you to give this

conversation some space. Um, you're

right. I needed that and we'll love to

touch base with you soon." So, you're

giving them credit for their choice. So,

when you're saying, you know, almost

like a, "Hey, good job. thank you for

trying to get us back on track. They

will take that and go, "Okay, yeah, that

was my intentional choice to help us

rather than you saying, hey, you know

what? You're not talking to me. If you

don't want to talk to me, that's fine."

That kind of stuff is going to further

pull them apart.

>> So, good, Jefferson. When I'm in a

conversation that I feel like I'm

um it's getting away from me. Let's say

that. That could be a sales negotiation.

It could be a conversation with a

friend, you name it. Um, I feel like in

my case, most of the time it's speeding

up faster than I want it to. You talk

about this in rule one. Number six is

control the pace. And as I listen to

you, I mean, you're very cognizant even

of your pace and the way that you

communicate even on the show today and

even in your content. You do you're

actually a little faster when you do the

content from your car than you are right

now on the show. you're even a pace

slower today than you are in your car.

So, I watch that like tonality and

pacing. Yeah. Let's talk about that in a

conversation cuz with my when emotions

run high often times for me, I feel like

the conversation is speeding up where my

my uh intellect is now not quite as

sharp as my emotions are running if that

makes any sense. So, what are strategies

to control the pace and what does that

even mean?

>> Yeah, I love that you picked up on that.

the anytime you are getting that fight

or flight and I know all of your

listeners highly educated they know

fight or flight whenever you're getting

emotionally flooded like that it is

that's why you're having trouble finding

your thoughts and connecting things and

that's why the quicker you get maybe

you've felt it where you you're either

nervous same thing when you're really

mad you might stammer and you might go

like no no no that that's not and you're

having trouble getting words out it's

because you're just flooded your

emotions are there your logical and

analytical side is not. And so what I

teach every one of my clients before

they go cross-examination and I'm just

offering them up to the wolves is a

constant reminder of you control the

pace, not them. That means no matter how

fast somebody is peppering you with

questions, the conversation cannot

happen any faster than you respond. So,

whenever they ask you a question and you

give a rapid fire answer back or worse,

you start to step over their question

because you already see where it's

going, bad things happen. You say things

you don't mean. You say things that are

not fully thought out. That's why even

in romantic relationships, all of a

sudden you blurt something out and you

go, "Oh, I that's oh man, that's not

what I mean." And you you already knew

as soon as it came out of your mouth,

you put your foot in your mouth and you

messed up. It's because you weren't

controlling the pace. That means you

need to slow down your words and that

you need to leave space between what

they said and how you're going and when

you're going to respond. There's a

difference

if you were to ask me

if if you said, "Hey, Jefferson, how was

your day?" And I said, "Good. It was

real good." I mean, it was it was it was

really good. Thanks. Versus, "Hey,

Jefferson, how was your day?" And I

said,

"It was good. It was a good day." Like

you can just hear the difference in

which one listened to the question,

which one thought about the answer,

which one makes the other person feel

acknowledged or heard. Same thing with

that's why rule number one is say with

control. If you go down and let's say

you're you're at work and all of a

sudden you go, "What's wrong? What

happened? What what's going on?" and you

all you're sensing and telling the other

person is you're grasping for control

versus you come in take a breath and

then you're saying all right what

happened give it to me like people are

looking like we said for those emotional

anchors so what I teach is let your

breath be the first word that you say

that's how you set the pace of a

conversation so where your first word

would be put a breath in its place and

what's that going to do is keep your

analytical side engaged and to where you

do not allow yourself emotionally to get

emotionally flooded and the b second

benefit is neither does the other person

because now you are also injecting the

time and forcing them to slow down. What

about tonality?

Um, specifically,

uh, raising your voice for assertion

or lowering it almost to get them to

lean in to pay attention. Is that any

part of your belief system and influence

or persuasion in a conversation?

>> Yeah. The the idea is you want to lower

your voice. I'm not not talking really

low. It's just you want to make sure

it's always a downward inflection when

you want to make statements that are

foundational, statements that are

concrete, statements that are this is is

my value or my boundary. Um when you

have an upward inflection, it makes it

sound like you're always asking a

question. Like if I was going to ask you

say pass the salt, I wouldn't say can

you pass the salt as if like I doubt

your ability to do it or as if you don't

know what salt is. It's the downward

inflection. Can you pass the salt? So,

you want to make sure that you have a

lower register instead of something

that's really high. Uh, same thing for

like music. You take for example um if

you are always listening to fast-paced

music, it it encourages aggravation. It

encourages anxiety to some extent. Trust

me, I like all kinds of music. But my

point is if you start to versus if you

listen to something that's more easily

listening, it will slow down your brain

waves. It slows down your entire uh

feeling of how you're reacting. So when

you are able to use a voice that is

lower in tone, it sounds a lot more in

control. There's a difference if I were

to say for example

um I already told you I'm not going to

do that versus I already told you I'm

not going to do that. Like one sounds

like it's grasping for control and it's

not in control. The other says I am

fully in control of this moment.

>> Bro, you made me just think of my dad.

My dad uh was a yeller when I was a

young man. So he used his voice the

worst possible way, right? Aggravation,

stress, anxiety,

he could take a situation that was a two

and make it a 22 in like a second.

However, as my dad got older,

one of the things I noticed about my

father, when I had a major life problem,

like a big big one, you know, like one

of those once every eight or nine years,

I'm in big trouble type things, and I

would call my dad,

he would slow down the conversation, his

voice would get deeper, and there was

this just his pacing and tonality

calmed me down multiple notches. So much

so that to this day, my father's passed

away that I have imaginary conversations

with my dad when I'm under stress

where I am listening and mirroring that

specific tonality of his where he slowed

it down and calmed it down and gave me a

sense of peace about the conversation to

the extent that it was so influential on

me that I will have these conversations

with him even though he's not here

because it calms me down. That's how

powerful what you're Yeah. It's It's how

powerful what you're suggesting is that

when your children come to you under

stress or in trouble,

>> I've I've worked so hard in those

specific moments of just listening to

them

>> and slowing it down a little bit,

>> getting a little deeper in my register.

>> Go ahead. You were going to say

>> No, I was going to say you're you're

you're spot on and I I love that. I

think that is so I mean he was your that

was the anchor in the conversation. I

find that Same way with the kids. Like I

we never for the parents that are

listening, you you never you always want

to be the person that your kids run to

for help, you know, when when they make

the mistakes. And if you always yell at

them and uh raise your voice, they're

not going to come to you. But when you

can be a safe space and say slowly,

"Thank you for coming to me with this."

You know, that's going to just encourage

that dialogue. the slowing down is a

there's a lot of wisdom in that.

>> There is, brother. Well, since we're

talking about kids, let's stay on one

little topic. What if you're interacting

with someone who's behaving like a kid?

Meaning,

you're just you're interacting with

somebody who's emotionally

immature.

>> Yeah.

>> And now you got to have a grown-up

conversation with this person that you

know is emotionally immature. and every

time the conversation gets a little bit

more stressed, their maturity level

drops even further. What are some of

your thoughts in dealing with someone

like because we've all got those people

around us. We we may even love them.

Their maturity level to have a

productive conversation is not always uh

matching what we would like it to be.

What do we do with them?

>> Right? Well, let's first set out that

you have to choose whether or not you

want to have that conversation with that

person if that's the person to have the

conversation with. Um, you know, because

there's there's all kinds of different

types. In my view, you need to be very

clear about I'm going to use the word

boundaries, but not in a in a woowoo

kind of way. I'm using it in a terms of

gatekeeping your peace of mind. Meaning,

you're going to use words that

sense establish signal boundaries like

what you accept, what you allow. Those

are the two big ones. So if I were going

to say I don't accept the way you're

talking to me right now versus you can't

speak to me that way like there is one

says if I say you can't speak to me that

way to somebody who's emotionally

immature all they're going to do is go

well yes I can like they're not going to

see behind the words but if you instead

of beginning with you you see how if I

say you can't speak to me that way I'm

just it's like they have a remote

control and I push in my buttons and I'm

saying you can't press that button But I

gave them the remote. Instead, it's you

want to have this idea of giving them a

manual saying, "Hey, look, if you turn

to page 76, paragraph 2, you'll see I

don't respond to that tone." Like, it's

that's the kind of power that you'll be

able to have when you use words like

accept or allow. It's saying I I don't

allow people to speak to me that way.

Um, I don't I don't allow people to yell

at me. I don't allow people to

disrespect me. I there is

um there is a sense of control that

you're going to feel and a sense of

confidence you're going to gain when you

stop giving remote controls and start

giving out manuals for how they are

going to be able to speak with you that

if you we're going to engage in this

conversation this is what them's the

brakes these are the rules this is this

is how we're going to uh go through that

instead of going ah I got to deal with

this person no you don't got to deal

with them they have to deal with you.

>> It's so good. I want to ask you about

that. So, I do consider you such an

expert at this. This is a hard one.

>> What if you've already been with

someone, so you're in a dynamic with

them where you have accepted this way of

being communicated to? So, it would be a

little bit off-putting at that time to

say something like,

um, I'm not going to accept you

communicating with me this way. Is it

just as simple as changing a couple

words and saying, "Listen, I know I have

accepted this in the past, but I am no

longer going to accept having you." Or

is there something else you would say?

In other words, you've established a

dynamic. It's been 5 years, 3 years, 10

years,

and that's it. You're not going to do it

anymore. So, that's a little bit harder

than the first time, right? That's why

I'm pushing it here because I know

people listening are like, I would do

that the first time, but I've been with

this guy or I've been with this lady now

for six years and I have allowed them to

walk on me verbally this way for quite a

while. That's the toughy. And I'm

wondering what you would do in that

case. So what I would do is I would make

it very clear right then and there that

I would begin with something like I've

made a choice and that choice starts

today or I've made a decision and that

decision starts today. Um it it is a

this is my bright line of how I'm going

to move forward. So even if it's as

simple as

I um you don't have to go well here's

what I don't want people to do. What I

don't want to go is, hey, I know how,

you know, we've been talking in the past

and, you know, I know you've been

talking to me that way, but I'm not

going to allow that anymore this time.

Like, that is only the people that are

intelligent, the people that are um and

know that they've been taking advantage

of you will continue to poke down on you

and they'll make fun of you for saying

that kind of stuff. But that's what I

don't want. That's more weaker position.

Instead, it is a I've made a choice and

that choice is going to be instated for

the rest of this relationship or the

rest of this conversation. So, whenever

you can say I've made a choice or I

putting this into action, you're using

action verbs that say I have made a

decision and this decision is going to

be how we move forward. Not a just a

random, you know, you're not going to

talk to me that way. But either way,

even if you do, people are going to find

ways that the people who

enjoyed you not having boundaries are

the ones that are going to be upset by

them. So, it's it doesn't mean your

boundary is wrong. It just means that

it's working. So, it's you're going to

have people that are frustrated that

you're changing the dynamic regardless.

>> You uh let's take it one level past and

then I want to ask you some stuff about

in the book as well. All of this is in

the book, you guys. By the way, it's

also in his content, which is basically

here's how you know content is good.

When I started on social media, 99% of

my videos were me in my car with a

camera in my hand, not driving. Here's

some content. And then it went viral.

It's exactly how he's gone. And that

means it's the content standing on its

own, not the curation of it, you know,

or the music behind it. Okay, let's

escalate further. You're with a

narcissist now. you're with a full-blown

narcissist. Now, these are, in my

opinion, the most difficult people in

the world to communicate with that and

someone who's just patently dishonest

all the time in their communication with

you. But you're dealing with a

narcissist. What do we need to know

about narcissists in the first place

structurally? Is there anything that you

know if this person is a narcissist?

this is structurally who they are, what

they do, and then any tactics or

techniques in order to navigate

conversations with them.

>> Anytime you are having a conversation

with a narcissist, you're playing a

game. You You are on the board. And it's

a game of either praise or provoke.

Meaning that if you are not showering

them with praise, Ed, they will turn

around and start an argument with you to

get you upset because they delight in

your frustration just as much as they

delight in your praise. They always want

that from you. It's that sense of

control. Whichever feeling that they can

grab from you and suck out of you,

that's exactly what they're going to do.

It's a game and it's a it's a rigged

game. The reason why I say it's rigged

because it looks beatable. Like we've

been in those conversations with

narcissists and been on the other side

of the table and you go, if I can just

only get them, if I can just say it this

way, I'm going to get them to

understand. I'm going to get them to

apologize. I'm going to get them to see

the light and go, "Oh my gosh, yeah,

you're so right. I can see how uh you

were upset by that." They're not going

to do that. They don't. Narcissists just

they don't do empathy. They might know

it hurts. They can't care about it. And

so the first idea and mindset you need

to have is that you're just not going to

play the game. You do that by one using

phrases that are very short and to the

point that they can't do anything with.

So if you were just to say, "Got it.

Noted. I hear you." Like it's something

as simple as that. It just kind of puts

a wet blanket on the conversation. They

can't draw from it. the longer your

answer. I I told this to all my clients.

So, it goes really for any

communication, but the the longer your

answer, the more questions you're going

to get every time, the more that you're

going to have to say. Like, you've sent

that text message to somebody and it was

like a paragraph and you're like, "Oh,

this is the best, most poetic, put

together text I've ever sent." And as

soon as you send it, all they do is just

pick out like one half of a sentence

right in the middle and you're like,

"They didn't even address anything that

I said." Yeah, that was the point. So

you you you you you said too many

things. You need to give just a little

bit. Two, you need to find ways just to

take yourself out of that conversation

or what I also like to do and um this is

this is a go deep moment with me and you

here is that when I am cross-examining a

narcissist typically some type of expert

witness, somebody who feels like they

just have the ego of

just out of control that they're the

only person who could ever have an

opinion is you use their

thoughts about their reputation. So, if

I'm questioning a witness and he and I

know he's a narcissist, I I might say,

"And you think the juryy's going to like

that?" And it might just be me and him

in the room. I say, "And you think the

juryy's going to like that?" Well, well,

uh, because now he's thinking about the

jury. Or if I were to say, if if you

think others are going to be okay with

that, now they're thinking outside of it

because they really don't care about

you. They care about the others. And so

whenever you can get them to think about

their reputation outside of the

conversation, they change the dynamic so

that they can make themselves feel good

about it in that moment.

>> All right, welcome back to the show

everybody. You know, today was a very

important episode for me in terms of

scheduling this today because I think

it's such an important topic for a

couple reasons. Number one, one of my

great concerns in our culture right now

is the way we talk with one another. uh

the way we have conversations. It just

seems to me over the last 20, 30 years

in our culture, we've lost the ability

to have a conversation with somebody

that we might not agree with in a

productive way. And I'm sure you all

agree with me as well. It's become very

difficult in our times to dialogue with

somebody that you might have a

disagreement with or to have a difficult

conversation with. The art and science

of learning to have a conversation is

one of the most important skills you can

have in life. Even with my kids, one of

the things I hope they leave our home

with is the ability to communicate, the

ability to have a conversation with

somebody. And it is a skill and there

are insights in how to do it better. And

I just feel like it could change our

world if we talk to one another better.

And I think you'd agree with me too,

whether it be your personal

relationships, a political discussion, a

religious discussion, as a leader in

your company, having a conversation

about creating ideas or a new direction,

whatever it might be. learning to be a

better conversationalist. And I have the

perfect guest. His name is Chuck

Weisner. Chuck's got a book out right

now called The Art of Conscious

Conversations: Transforming How We Talk,

Listen, and Interact. And I'm really

excited to get into this topic. So,

Chuck, welcome to the show.

>> Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to

be here.

>> It really is for me. You know, a lot of

times have all these people on my show

that have these huge followings or

guests, you know, that, you know, have

major notoriety. And I've always found

that often times it's the topics on my

show that really move people. And more

and more people are concerned about the

way we talk with one another. And so I

want to get right into it. How do you

talk with somebody if it's a difficult

conversation? One of the things I saw

that you said is you ask in your

writing, do your patterns of judging

others reflect behaviors you don't like

or want to recognize or won't recognize

about yourself? So when we're in a

difficult conversation with somebody,

you know, maybe we disagree with them. I

want to go to the hard stuff first. Like

I'm a Republican and someone's a

Democrat or I'm a Democrat and someone's

a Republican. Something like that. You

know, these hard conversations. What are

some of the keys in being better at

doing it so it's actually a productive

experience?

>> There are definitely keys that we're

going to talk about.

>> And it's also important to know that

when you're in a difficult conversation,

both parties have to be willing to start

with truth.

And if we can't have a foundation of

truth, then you're going to have a very

the conversation will remain difficult.

There's opinions and there's facts and

there's emotions

>> and we get all of those mixed up, right?

And they all get discombobbleled and

jumbled up in our brain. But if we

realize that my opinion is just my

opinion and it's not the truth, then we

can slowly we can say, okay, what's

driving my opinion? and we sort of can

open our hand and go, "This is why I'm

thinking how I'm thinking. This is what

my standards are." There's four

archetypal questions in the book. This

is what I'm worried about. This is my

concern. Here's what I'd like. We can

start to just open our hands and say,

"Okay, I have an opinion. Let's dance

with that. Let's see what we can learn

from each other." That's a very

different conversation with fists than

fist coming at each other.

>> Yeah. And you also say in the book that

I've learned to do this myself um is to

fall in love with asking questions,

>> right?

>> When you're talking with somebody,

whether you're a business leader and

trying to create change in your company

or whether you're in an argument with a

spouse or disagreement or you got to

talk about something different and like

I've used I've used politics as an

example because it's the big one. Right.

Right. Like they're good, we're bad, I'm

right, you're wrong.

>> And the idea of making statements all

the time and telling stories as opposed

to asking questions.

>> Right. Right. and and the the idea of

whether I'm doing it to myself and

asking myself what's driving my opinion,

what's driving my judgment and why am I

so hooked on the thing, right?

>> We can also the questions help us like

each question can help us open someone

else's hand

>> because we can ask well what what do you

what do you really want? What do you

what do you desire here? What do you

want out of this? What are your

standards for measuring this this

opinion that you have? So our questions

can literally help other people unlock

>> and unfist, right?

>> Yeah.

>> And and but we aren't trained to ask

questions. We're trained to have

answers. That's one of the major

dilemmas. And then we get into school

and we're rewarded for raising our hand.

And then we get into business and we're

rewarded for being the smartest person

in the room. Right.

>> Right.

>> And that's a counter to the the opposite

effect is asking questions.

>> Well, this notion of raising your hand

was my next thing. So, you're reading my

mind.

>> And I think one of the art forms of

being a great conversationalist is

actually the art of listening.

>> And that's why questions matter so much.

And you're precisely right. In school,

the teacher still talking and asking the

question. We're taught. We're rewarded.

Raise your hand while they're still

talking.

>> And what that does to me, I want you to

speak to this. To me, what that does to

me is it means I'm really not listening

to what you're saying. I'm already

thinking about what I'm gonna say back

to you in my answer or my judgment or my

assessment about you. Most people are

already raising their hand,

>> you know, metaphorically when most other

people are still talking and they

wonder, why am I not connecting with

this person? Why can't we find common

ground? Because while they're talking,

you've got your hand raised already. I

got the answer. I know the truth. I want

to say something. And rather finishing

and letting them finish their statement.

>> Yeah. And so our our brain is spinning

our answer. uh and so there's no space

actually to absorb what's coming at us

from the other person right and and part

of that that actually the main reason of

that is we are we get addicted to our

position our ego and our identity gets

addicted to I believe this and if I

believe this is true then that is that

defines who I am and that that is often

why we enter with fists or why we enter

uh you know in defensively you know and

and can't just say, "Okay, I do have an

opinion. I'm going to set that aside and

I'm going to see if I can explore really

what what's driving this other person's

thinking."

>> Hey, welcome back to the show,

everybody. I'm honored to have this man

here for the second time. The first time

he was on the show, I sought him out

saying, "Please come on the show because

his book had made such an impact on me."

And now he's got a new book out, by the

way, before I introduce him called

Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the

Secret Language of Connection. And it's

a topic, as you all know, that I am

fascinated by because I talk a lot about

it on the show, except he's way more

qualified than me. And the reason he's

way more qualified than me is this guy

is a Pulitzer Prizewinning writer. He's

a New York Times bestselling author and

he's a renowned expert on habits and

also now after reading his work, he's an

expert on communication. So Charles

Dwig, welcome back to the show.

>> Thank you, Ed, for having me on. This is

such a treat for me.

>> Yeah, I love you, brother.

>> You're going to listen to a big brain

today, everybody, on a topic that you

need to know more about. I got to tell

you why I love your book so much.

>> When we were just talking about kids off

camera.

>> Yeah.

>> There's a few things I want my kids to

have left my house with. One, I want

them to have some faith, which is their

morals and ethics. I want him to have

some work ethic, self-confidence, and if

I could give them a fourth thing, it

would be the ability to be an

outstanding communicator. And I just

think it's one of the things that is the

most important elements of life. I'm

sure you agree.

>> I think that's absolutely right. And I

think the things that you mentioned

before that are really important because

if you you could be a great communicator

and if you don't have values, if you

don't have discipline, then it's not

necessarily going to get you any place.

But the difference between people who

have those first three things and then

don't know how to communicate is that

they stall out at some point, right?

They like they have trouble in their

marriage. They have trouble like

communicating with their their spouse or

their partner. They oftentimes stall out

at work because the thing that made them

successful at work.

>> Once you become a manager, it's not just

doing that. It's about helping other

people learn how to do that.

>> And also there's a huge amount of

self-discovery that comes from

conversation, right? Like

>> when I talk to you and you talk to me,

>> we learn things about ourselves through

what we say. And it takes someone

talented, a super communicator to draw

that out, to know how to how to make the

space for that.

>> That's interesting. You learn about

yourself, too. I didn't think about it

that way. But you're right. You know, I

I almost feel like after I was reading

your book, and by the way, everybody, it

is outstanding. This man does not write

average books. He just doesn't. And he

sells a lot of them for a reason. And I

almost feel like after reading it, I

think I thought this before, but almost

your ability to communicate will be the

cap on your life to some extent. It's

the cap on your rel the intimacy level

in your relationship for example to some

extent is limited or enhanced by your

ability to communicate non-verbal cues

verbal cues your ability to lead and

move people in business your family

environment friendships I mean the cap

on your your success level in those

areas is almost directly correlated to

communication

>> I absolutely so my um my father passed

away about six years ago and I went to

his funeral and there were so many more

people there were people that like I

hardly remembered like people it so

surprised and I was talking to them and

I was like, you know, like thank you for

coming and they would all say the same

thing. They'd say like, I loved talking

to your dad,

>> right? That's why they showed up is

because they had

>> they had this relation they had a

connection with him.

>> Do you think it's because of I think one

thing human beings have, Charles, is

you're always making people feel

something.

>> Yeah.

>> Yet, I think most people are oblivious

to that fact. They're feeling something

from you in a moment. your interest

level, your energy, your frequency, your

trustworthiness, your ability to elevate

them. So do you think with your dad for

example, it wasn't just, you know,

talking with him, but it was how he made

other people feel.

>> That's exactly what it was. So So

sometimes when people ask me like who

how do you define a super communicator?

I the the easiest answer is to say,

okay, think of the person you would call

if you were having a bad day,

>> right? Like you're having a terrible

day. There's someone you call you know

they're going to make you feel better.

Like like who would that person be for

you?

>> It would have been my dad. Okay.

>> For sure. Before he passed away, that

was that came right to me. Call my dad.

>> And my guess is that if I met your dad,

what I would see is he's not the

funniest person in your life. He's not

the most charismatic person in your

life. But what he did is he proved to

you that he was listening to that he

heard what you said

>> and then he

>> he reciprocated

your vulnerability or your joy or your

sadness. He shared it with you. And as a

result, you walked away feeling like

>> what I'm experiencing, what I'm

thinking, what I'm feeling,

>> this is like this is profound and this

is real.

>> You're right.

>> And it's been validated. And you don't

need your dad to validate it. Like it's

still real to you. But to have someone

else feel like have them feel like they

genuinely want to understand you.

>> That's right.

>> That feels wonderful. In fact, it's

hardwired into our brain to feel

wonderful.

>> Yeah. I just did this and I did a

podcast on it. So I'll ask you this. How

much of communication do you think is

actually the ability to listen

correctly? A huge amount. A huge amount.

So, and and and let me say that that

there's this thing about listening,

which is when I'm talking, whatever

you're doing, I'm probably not going to

pay attention to it because I'm so it's

so cognitively intense to try and speak

that even though I'm going to make eye

contact with you and and I'm going to

kind of notice if you're frowning or

you're smiling or whatever it is, I'm

really not going to pick up on the

signals you're sending me. So listening

is not just hearing what the person is

saying. It's what you do after they

finish talking. Because if you do this

thing where you prove to me that you've

been listening and and in the psychology

literature, this is actually referred to

as looping for understanding.

>> Okay?

>> That particularly if you have a conflict

with someone, the best way to to sort of

bring the tension down is ask a

question, repeat back what you hear the

person says in your own words. And then

step number three, which is the one we

usually forget, is ask them if you got

it right.

>> And if I do that, so when you think

about it, so I'm listening to you. I

have to listen closely to you because I

need to I'm thinking I got to repeat

back what you're saying in my own words.

I got to process it. But most

importantly, you know that I've been

listening based on what I say after

you're done speaking.

>> And that's really what active listening

is. It's about not just passively

receiving.

>> It's about amplifying.

>> Very good. That is really good.

>> It's I mean and the thing is it's so

easy to do. Like once I learned this

like I find myself doing it all the time

without even realizing it. Like I I'll

be like when I hear you saying this and

and tell me if I'm getting this wrong

and like it just feels so natural. Like

it feels totally automatic.

>> It's so good to have somebody say that

back to you

>> because that you do get the feeling with

most people I think they do two things.

One, they're really more concerned with

what they're about to say back to you.

>> Yes.

>> And two, I call them verbal nudges where

they're interrupting you too often or

uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. which you think

is a form of agreement, but I think to

some extent sometimes you're almost

saying, "I got it. Okay, can I say

something now?"

>> And you're almost nudging them to finish

rather than letting them finish.

>> That's I think that's exactly true.

>> And I think that part of this is

understanding what the goal of a

conversation is.

>> Okay.

>> So, it's easy to go into a conversation

and think the goal is to to convince

this person I'm right or maybe even the

goal is just to come to agreement on

something. That's wrong. The goal of a

conversation is simply to understand

what the other person is trying to tell

you. So that means that if I'm listening

to you and you say something that I

think is crazy, you wouldn't say this,

but but lizard people run the world or

whatever it is, it if I I'm not going to

agree with you and I'm probably not

going to convince you that you're wrong,

>> but as long as I understand how you see

the world, as long as I ask you a

question that's known as a deep question

where I say like, why is this important?

like what is it about this that seems

really meaningful and important to you?

>> You're going to tell me something about

who you are. I'm going to repeat back

what you've told me about like I care

about lizard people because I I really

think the elites of this world, right,

>> are are like are like having this

pernacious effect on on the working

class. I'm going to repeat that back to

you. I'm going to ask you if I got it

right. I'm not going to agree with you

and you're not going to agree with me,

but simply understanding each other

means we have succeeded. And it feels

good, right?

>> It does. I'm just thinking of like

political discourse, you know, like just

really understand where they're coming

from. I'm not going to win this. I have

to tell you, your work's so good because

it's actually the part of conversations.

I think it's why I have a podcast. I

really enjoy not only understanding what

somebody's saying, but also like why

they're saying it. What's this come

from? I'm in an Uber.

>> I basically interview almost every Uber

driver I ever have, right? But I I love

that by the end of a good 20 or 30

minute ride,

>> I find out where these belief systems

stem from. Yeah. Too. I had a I was in

one recently where this guy was way

right, like way way right.

>> And uh no matter what you believe

politically, but I mean I was like whoa.

And I'm like trying to understand and

try to understand and I've also had this

conversation with someone who's way

left. But it ended up that at the end I

found out that he had come from a

communist country. He had actually had

family that were murdered by communists.

And it whether I agreed with him or not,

that's not the point of this show,

>> but I actually had a much deeper

understanding of the basis from which

he's formed these opinions and I really

felt connected with this person.

>> Absolutely. So, you're right.

>> Okay. So, let me ask you a question if

you don't mind.

>> Sure.

>> So, when you're in that Uber, when

you're having that,

>> what's the second or third question you

ask? Cuz because you could be like,

"Hey, you know, where are you from?" Oh,

I'm from Europe. Like, what are you

asking next to to get you from the

shallow to the deep?

>> Uh, that's a really good question. I

usually ask them I I open them up a

little bit. I say, "Give me your

craziest story."

>> Oh, interesting.

>> So, I actually ask them to give me one

of their crazy ride stories. I'm

actually fascinated by that. So, it kind

of opens them up and they get loose. I

didn't do it tactically, but I found

that like, "Wow, you're kidding me. That

do that." And and then typically for me,

just cuz I'm most intrigued by it, I

love to know about people's families.

And I actually also think people love to

talk about their families typically,

too. So, usually I'll ask them, "Are you

married? Do you have children?" And I

know that sounds like basic stuff, but I

find for me that that's an entree into

learning an awful lot about these folks.

>> What I love about that is that what and

I think you got this by intuition is

>> is that so these deep questions, if we

ask people deep questions,

>> deep questions are things that ask us

about our values, our beliefs, or our

experiences. Okay?

>> So what's the craziest ride you've ever

given someone is asking this guy about

his experiences. Very good. Right. Tell

me about your kids. Like what are your

kids like? is at some point he could

just be like, "I have two kids." But at

some point you're probably going to say

like, "Oh, you know, do they like

school? What are they like? Where do

they go to school? Are you are you

worried about their future?" You're

going to ask something that's going to

get him to reveal to you who he really

is.

>> You're right. And by the way, I always

look at people like I I I this is an

overall belief system.

This person's a gift. I want to open

them up. It's really how I look at them.

And in this guy's case, I just got to

tell you in this guy's case, really

quick, just an interjection.

>> This dude was amazing. It turns out that

the reason he's driving Uber is he has a

daughter at Harvard and a son at

Stanford, right? And he's putting them

through school. And if you knew where

this man came from, it was remarkable.

And the pride he had in his children and

his wife and that they had raised them

and they were there. And it became this

like really beautiful conversation where

not only did I admire, I was like,

"Whoa, this is an incredible the life

you've built, the sacrifice you're

making." And he had a full-time day job

drove and it became kind of this

conversation. We talked about our

children. And by the time I was done, I

actually really had a connection with

this man that I probably won't I'm

talking about him on my podcast now.

Right.

>> Right. So, let me ask you this.

>> Okay.

>> The details of the work, guys, we're

going to get into now. There are really

three conversation types. Okay. I didn't

know there were. I was kind of oblivious

to this, but I think just this alone

would enlighten people so they know

which conversation they're in. They can

identify it. So, share some of that.

This is a big discovery from the last

decade and we're kind of living through

this golden age of understanding

communication in for the first time in a

new way.

>> And what what the first thing that

researchers have found is that we think

of a discussion as being about one

thing. We're talking about my book or

we're talking about your kids.

>> Yeah.

>> But actually every conversation is made

up every discussion is made up of

different kinds of conversations that eb

and flow. And most of those different

kinds of conversations fall into one of

three buckets. There's a practical

conversation where we're talking about

plans or making decisions together or

we're fixing problems. Politics is often

this. There's an emotional conversation

where if I tell you how I'm feeling

about something,

>> I do not want you to fix it for me. I

want you to acknowledge that you've

heard it and I want you to tell me to to

sort of be vulnerable with me.

>> And then there's a social conversation.

And a social conversation is about how

we relate to each other in society, how

we think other people see us, how our

identities, right?

>> How our identities shape how we see the

world in different and interesting ways.

>> And the key is there's this thing known

as the matching principle, which is if

I'm having an emotional conversation and

you respond with a practical

conversation, even though both of what

we're saying is legit, we're not going

to hear each other.

>> That is outstanding.

>> This happens at home. Like I with my

spouse all the time. I come home, I've

had a tough day at work, I'm complaining

about my boss. My wife says

>> she solves the problem. She says, "Why

don't you go and like take him out to

lunch and get to know each other

better?" And instead of being like,

"That's really good advice." I'm like,

"You don't understand. You're not

listening to me."

>> Very good, Charles.

>> So, so if she matches me and then

invites me to match her,

>> then we're having the same kind of

conversation. Then we can hear each

other.

You just explained 25 years of problem.

>> No, because I'm coming home to an

emotional conversation and I'm I'm not

in one sometimes.

>> What about what advice would you give to

somebody who I c we were talking about

socially? I just moved and you were

asking about the move and I said,

>> you know, I kind of revert back to

myself socially and uh uh I think I

would categorize myself. would surprise

most people listen to the show, but I'm

very quiet and very shy and I find a lot

of public speakers are by the way. A lot

of entertainers privately are very I'd

call an introvert.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you have any advice for an introvert

as it comes to communication like this?

>> So, I think one of the things I heard

you just say when you were talking about

that Uber driver is you got into the

car.

>> Yeah.

>> And he had one identity which is

rightwing.

>> Yeah.

>> And you asked him some deep questions

that were easy to ask. like they didn't

seem intimate

>> and he started telling you about his

other identities and once he once he

complicated himself once he said like

look I'm not just one thing I'm three

and four and five things all of a sudden

it's easy to feel close to that person

because some of those things he is you

are too

>> and so I think when it comes to

introverts or when you move to a new

place like one of the things that I like

to do is you meet someone at a party or

a barbecue or whatever it is and like I

often ask them you know what do you do

for a thing.

>> And then I'll often say, you know, they

say, I'm a lawyer. And I say, you know,

do you love practicing the law? Like,

did you just did did what made you

decide to become a lawyer? Like, when

was the moment you decided to become a

lawyer? What inevitably they say is

something that tells me about their

other identities, which is,

>> I became a lawyer because I saw my dad

get arrested and I wanted to fight for

the for the underdog. Or, I became a

lawyer because we were poor

>> and I wanted to always have enough

money. Or, I became a lawyer because I

love intellectual stimulation. M

>> like think of those those three answers

just told me so much about those

different people.

>> And at that point I can say to them,

>> yeah, I don't I grew up poor, too. Like

>> I understand what that's like.

>> And now suddenly we feel safe with each

other. I think

>> I this isn't necessarily true for

introverts, but for when we're in new

social situations and we were talking

about how hard it is to make friends

when you don't have friends in a place,

>> the thing that often stops us is just a

little mild anxiety. You're right. Oh, I

at least smiled with me.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> At least smiled with me.

>> And And how are we going to start the

conversation? How are we going to get

out of the conversation? How like,

>> okay, that's mine.

>> Okay,

>> that's mine to be and candidly like, so

I I love that we're going there. My I'm

okay opening a conversation. How are

you? You know, where you, you know,

>> for me it's how does this end?

>> How does this end? I bet everybody

driving or listening, right? Like, no,

that's something I would like to know

more about. How does this end? I have

the most awkward finishes of

conversations of any dude you've ever

met in your life. I'm like, "Okay, well,

hey." And I usually end up the

conversation with some sort of

>> BS or something. You're like, "I'm going

to use the restroom."

>> I got to get away from you.

>> I have to go refresh my glass. It's

still half half full.

>> So, okay. So, so actually, um, Daniel

Gilbert at Harvard actually did an

entire study trying to figure out how

people end conversations.

>> Yeah.

>> And do does the other person want to end

at the same time you do? And what he

found was two things. Number one, he

found that you think I want you to end

the conversation cuz I'm I'm getting

bored and actually I am enjoying this

conversation. We do a difficult job of

gauging the other person's interest in

the conversation.

>> But then sometimes we want to end the

conversation, right? And so this is this

is what super communicators do.

>> They forecast it without committing to

it immediately. So they say something

like, "Oh man, this is so interesting. I

totally got to go like freshen up my

drink, but before I do, like let me ask

you like X because often times the the

end of the conversation feels hard

because it feels awkward.

>> Yes.

>> But if you've already set the table and

you're like you're like I got to step

away, but this is so fascinating. Let me

ask you one more thing.

>> Then when they're done answering the

question, you're like, "Oh man, thank

you so much." And you just turn away.

That's not awkward.

>> I love that. That's that's prefring the

conclusion.

>> That's exactly right.

>> Very good.

>> That's exactly right. A lot of what

you're saying, I'm listening, is it has

to do with the questions you're asking.

I think a lot of people look at

conversations or communication like what

am I telling somebody? What am I saying?

And I'm sure there's an element of that

that we'll get to in a minute, too. But

so far, a lot of the things you've been

suggesting involve questions you're

asking somebody. And I have to say this

to you, I'm amazed how how many people I

talk to in social environments and

business environments that don't ask

that never questions. I know.

>> I know. And and I can't figure out I

think that for some of them they're just

not practiced at it. And it is like

that's the thing about super

commmunication. Anyone can be a super

communicator. It's literally just a set

of skills. Like you just have to

practice the skills and make them into

habits. Nobody's born knowing how to do

this.

>> But I have the same it drives me crazy.

I ask question after question and then

they they answer and then they stop

talking and they're waiting for my next

question. I'm like like does there any

So here's the thing. Here's the thing

that you're exactly right. 50% if not

more of a good conversation is asking

good questions.

>> But then something happens. There's a

difference between a conversation and an

interrogation, right? Or an interview.

>> And this gets into what's known as

emotional reciprocity. And emotional

reciprocity is basically one of the

strongest impulses that all humans have.

If somebody engages in emotional

reciprocity, we can't help but feel a

little bit closer and a little bit more

trusting of them. M

>> so emotional reciprocity says if you say

something vulnerable

>> yes

>> and then I recognize I acknowledge that

vulnerability but I also show that I can

be vulnerable

>> then we're going to feel like we can

trust each other

>> and so and that's about speaking so that

doesn't mean if you say my dad passed

away I should be like oh I understand

completely because my aunt passed away

12 years ago

>> like that's stealing the spotlight from

you right

>> okay

>> but if you say my dad passed away and I

say, "Oh man, I like I know how hard

that can be." Like, "Tell me about your

dad. What was he like?"

>> Oh gosh, that was good.

>> Right. And then like and then and what

I'm signaling to you is a I'm interested

in you. I want to hear from you. I want

to understand you. But b you learned

something about me.

>> And if you're interested, you can you

can say like like tell me tell me how

you know about this. Like what happened?

>> What about being

being the server first, serving the

vulnerability first?

>> Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a guy

named Nick Epley at the University of

Chicago who's in the book

>> and like

>> Nick is so good at this. Every

conversation I've ever had with him. He

says something in the conversation near

the start of the conversation that feels

so intimate.

>> Yeah.

>> And as a result, I'm just like, I love

this guy. Like I just want to talk to

him. And again, when I look at the

transcripts, because I'm oftentimes

talking to him for reporting and when I

read the transcript, it doesn't seem too

intimate. It doesn't seem overly

intimate, but he says things like, you

know, hey, Nick, how are you doing? Like

instead of saying, oh, fine.

>> Says something like, yo, it's great. I

like went to my son's soccer game this

weekend. It was and like we adopted

these kids from Ethiopia and like just

watching them now as these like strong

young men.

>> Like it it was it was a great weekend,

>> brother.

>> Right. And he's offered that up. And at

that point, I'm like, man, I'll tell you

all about myself.

>> Let me tell you about me. I think I also

trust you more when you do that.