Today's number 11. That's the percentage

increase in Halloween candy prices this

year compared to 2024. Ed, true story.

Last Halloween, I went dressed as a

chicken and I met a girl dressed as an

egg, which answered the age-old

question, the chicken.

[Music]

I actually think Halloween and

Valentine's Day are very similar. They

both involve candy, and I pretend to be

something I'm not. Pretend

to be thoughtful, caring.

>> Two bangers in a row.

>> Two bangers. Let's talk about Halloween.

What are you doing?

>> Uh, I'm going to a party. I'm going to

dress up as Inspector Cluo, and my

girlfriend's going to be the Pink

Panther. I do have another Halloween

story, actually, and that is I went to a

party last week that for some reason I

thought was a costume party. It was my

friend's birthday dinner and I convinced

my girlfriend that it was a costume

party and she was just assumed that I

was right. I was like, "Yeah, yeah, it's

definitely we want to get dressed up."

We show up as cowboy and cowgirl with

cowboy hats and it is a regular dinner

party. Everyone is dressed completely

normally. Uh so it was quite a shocking

experience for us.

>> Yeah. If that's the most embarrassing

thing that's happened to your girlfriend

being your having her you as her

boyfriend, she's she's got a world of

surprise coming her way.

>> She's going to deal with some more.

>> Ed, ask me what I'm doing. Ask me what

I'm doing. What am I doing? What are you

up to, Scott? What What's going on with

you?

>> What are you up to, Scott? What kind of

parties are you going to?

>> Well, Ed, I don't like to talk about

this kind of thing, but I am going to

Toronto tomorrow. Now, I say, "Why are

you going to Toronto?"

>> Ah, why are you going to Toronto?

>> I am accepting an award from the Simon

Weezenthal Center. Mhm.

>> And the spirit of hope dinner

uh for our advocacy and protection I

think of the Jewish people and it's me

and Van Jones which is one a very big

award and two shows you how deep into

the barrel you have to go because so few

Jews are actually speaking out. But

anyways going to Canada to get an award.

This is a very serious topic. Ed, don't

laugh. Don't laugh. What's so funny? Let

me guess. She just got back from voting

for mom Donnie. Let me guess.

>> No, I just love the I love I love how I

love the setup. Just I don't know if

we're going to have this in the edit,

but the the prompting

story.

>> I know it's a true story.

>> I'm going to Toronto tomorrow morning.

>> I know. I'm very excited for you. You're

going to be back in New York and we're

going to we're going to have I think a

few meetings, right? To go over how how

the business is doing. Can I just say so

far I think this is our most cringy

opening and that is not easy.

>> I brought in Judyism Toronto Halloween.

>> There's a This is This is a This is a

fruit salad of weird. Yeah, we're doing

our team meeting. I like to I like to

encourage everyone to work harder. Um

and we're going to go over the business.

Business is rocking by the way. I mean

markets is a drag on the business but

that was good. This show needs some

work.

>> Yeah, this show needs some work. No, the

business is going really well. Right

place, right time. Who would have

thought? Podcasting.

>> We're going to get the first full

picture of what it's like doing this

show 5 days a week cuz people people

forget. We only started doing this very

recently. So, this is our first full

quarter where we're going to review the

financial performance of doing this show

every weekday. I personally am very

excited to see how much money we're

making off of this thing. You're my I'm

going to give another reference that

only Drew, our technical director, who's

he's the only person over the age of 40

on this call that only he will write.

You're my Fernando Valenuela. Do you

know who Fernando Valenuela is?

>> I don't.

>> He looks scared that I'm going to say

it's some sort of like Norwegian porn

star or something. Anyways, it's

Fernando Valenuela.

>> You've called me worse.

>> Fernando is arguably one of the greatest

pitchers of all time. He played for the

Dodgers in the 80s and Tom Tommy

Lassorta. Had a fairly weak team or I

don't know if someone will come in the

comments. No, they were a good team.

Anyway, um he was this amazing pitcher.

Couldn't speak a word of English. And

uh he was amazing. And you're not

supposed to I guess use a pitcher more

than once, maybe twice a week as you

throw out the arm. And Tommy was

pitching him three times a week and

basically turned his arm into like a

rubber band. Just totally overplayed

him. Anyways, you're my you're my

Fernando Valenuela. We went from once a

week. We get a few positive comments.

I'm like, let's go to twice a week. We

go to twice a week. The thing does well

and Claire is very ambitious. She's

she's got a wedding to pay for at some

point. Hint hint. And then I And we go,

let's go to five days a week. So, you

guys are my Fernando Valenuela. I'm

literally throwing your arm out.

>> I love it. I'm young. I've got a lot

more throws left in me.

>> I agree. I agree, young man. All right.

With that, should we get to the

headlines?

>> Let's do it. We are speaking with Andrew

Ross Sorcin, editor at Lodge of Deal

Book at the New York Times and co-anchor

of CNBC's Squawkbox, and he is just out

with his new book 1929, which we cannot

wait to get into. Good to see you,

Andrew. Uh, Scott, ready to go?

>> Andrew, just quick before we get

started, is it okay if I mock your

interview with Leslie Stall, or is that

going to upset you?

>> No, you can you can say whatever you

like. Throw the ball as hard as you

want, my friend. That's that's what the

Canadians would say. They would say, "Do

what do what you like to do." But I'll

tell you this. I want you to know, we

got a copy of your new book, Scott. Just

arrived yesterday, and my wife and I

looked at and we said, "Instant

bestseller." Thanks, man. You could just

feel it. By the way, the the cover is

beautiful. The approach to the whole

thing is beautiful. I didn't get a

chance to fully read it. I mean, we were

just sort of going through it quickly,

but it you could just feel what you're

trying to do in those pages. And hats

off to you and I just can't wait for it.

>> It's just unfair. He's so [ __ ]

likable, isn't he?

>> See, this is how Andre is so successful

is how he invites roasts.

>> How do you not like this guy?

>> I'm not trying to pander to you. I'm

not. I'm just telling you the thing

shows up. The thing showed up at our

house yesterday and we have a whole

conversation about this cover. Whoever

made that cover, it's gorgeous.

>> Scott, enjoy enjoy roasting him now.

>> Read him in. Read this wonderful read

this wonderful intelligent man in.

This is our conversation with Andrew

Ross Stalkin. Andrew, good to have you

on the show.

>> It's great to be here. I'm ready for the

roast. I'm ready for the roast.

>> I I can't wait too. But I'm going to

start off cuz we want to get into your

book here, 1929, which I am actually

holding right here. You can go buy it

now. Uh currently number two on the

bestseller list. It is outlining what

happened in 1929, the stock market crash

which led to the Great Depression. Um,

let's just start with the basics here,

Andrew. What did happen in 1929?

>> Well, I mean, you probably have to go

back even before 1929

to get fully there, but you know, the

1920s, people talk about the the go- go

20s and the sort of remarkable period.

It was probably one of the most

transformational generations of our time

from a technological perspective,

automobiles, telecommunications, radio.

And the other magic ingredient was

credit, the opportunity for people to

get loans to go buy stuff. And

originally, it started with buying cars

and appliances from, you know, uh, all

sorts of different stores and things

like that. And then Wall Street caught

on and started offering people loans so

you could go buy stock. And that was

really what changed everything in terms

of how stock trading in America became

almost like a national pastime. So you

had the a market that just sort of

roared in the craziest way from 19

beginning 1928 to September 1929. It was

up 90% and this was like free money for

most people. And then of course the

crash happens and it wasn't just that

the market crashed. It's that everybody

was so levered that they were literally

selling their homes, mortgaging their

houses. And that's what really took the

confidence almost generationally

scarring a whole group of people and was

the first domino in a series of dominoes

that then led to the Great Depression.

And it wasn't pre-ordained. There was a

lot of things that happened in

Washington. And I think when you get

into the story of who these people were

and what they were doing and their

motives and their incentives and

everything else, you can really see how

those dominoes fell.

>> There have been a lot of stock market

crashes throughout history, throughout

American history. Why did you choose

this one? Why was this one? Why was 1929

in particular so significant?

>> So many people would come up to me after

I wrote too big to fail and say, "How

does 2008 financial crisis compare to

1929?" The truth is, I didn't know. I'd

read a lot about the period, but I'd

never got in inside the story, the

characters, who they were. I loved books

like Barbarians at the Gate and Den of

Thieves and, you know, books that Eric

Larson had written where you felt like

you were in the room with these people

and I thought, could I go do that?

>> Well, one of the things I really

appreciate about the book is that you

bring some of the characters that we

don't hear about or aren't on the tip of

our tongues to life. talk to us about

your favorite one or two characters that

you researched and if there's sort of a

modern-day analog.

>> Oh goodness. So, my two favorite

characters, the reason I think I wrote

this book and the reason I think the

moment I knew I could even write the

book was when I really got to understand

a guy named Charles Mitchell. Uh they

called him Sunshine Charlie. And Charles

Mitchell ran a bank called National

City, becomes Cityroup. uh by the way

lives, if you know New York City, lives

in what is now the French consulate on

Fifth Avenue between 74th and 75th

Street. That was his home. And he was

the guy who really created this idea of

lending people money to buy stock. He

used to say that stock should be sold

the way neckties are sold, that there

shouldn't be mystery around stock. He

believed in this idea of democratizing

finance. That was a big theme uh for him

in terms of what he thought would power

America. getting getting the the masses,

the ordinary investor involved in the

capitalistic system. Charlie Mitchell in

his time was like the Jaime Diamond of

his time. I mean, he he was on the cover

of magazines. This was really the first

time CEOs of big banks were showing up

on the cover of magazines. I mean,

before this was Babe Ruth and Charles

Lindberg and, you know, actors and

actresses. All of a sudden, these

bankers are on the cover of magazines as

like cover stars. And so maybe he was

like Jaime. I think in some ways he

might have been a little bit like

Michael Milin actually um in terms of

what he ultimately did in terms of the

credit piece of it. And then on the

other end of the story is a guy named

Carter Glass who I think a lot more

people know because they know about

GlassSteagall. This is the bill that

broke up the banks in 1933. Carter Glass

was like Elizabeth Warren. Uh he was the

Elizabeth Warren of his time. He was

actually from the south. He was a

senator in Virginia and he was really

frankly he was a racist Elizabeth Warren

and he was screaming from the rooftops

about this thing called Mitchellism and

how he believed that Charlie Mitchell

and Wall Street were going to upend

America because of this sort of rampant

speculation that needed to be tamped

down. And I think once I understood that

there was this fight, this battle

between these two powerful individuals,

I thought, okay, from a from a character

story perspective, that can really be

the driving spine of how this this goes.

>> I mean, some of the things that people

may not know that I didn't know until I

read your book was the 1929 or the, you

know, the Great Depression or the crash,

it wasn't as much as a of a crash as it

was a slow bleed, right? It kind of

played out over three years. It wasn't

like Black Friday or one day. It at one

point they thought it was done and over,

but it just kept hemorrhaging and by the

time we were in I think 32, the market

had lost 90% of its value, but it was

like it was kind of a slowmoving train

wreck, right?

>> It was such a slowmoving train wreck. I

mean, I think a lot of people have this

impression that there was like one great

crash. People talk about like Black

Thursday. Sometimes people talk about

Black Tuesday. Well, guess what? There

was a black There was a black Thursday.

There was a black Monday. There was a

black Tuesday. Interestingly,

at the end of so from October to

November 13th of 1929, stock market was

down uh about 49%. But by the end of

1929, the stock market was only down

17%. In fact, the New York Times used to

keep a list of the most important

stories of the year that they published

at the end of the year. The crash was

not on it. So it had this

psychologically scarring effect on some

Americans who had basically been just

taken out because they had borrowed so

much money and by the way couldn't

benefit when the stocks were covered at

all because they they were basically on

margin to begin with. And then as 1930,

31, 32 go by, there's just a number, as

I said, of sort of policy errors. The

tariffs, by the way, smooth holy

tariffs, 1930, that created a problem

for the country. The Fed, as we

mentioned, didn't really do much of

anything for the most part. And by the

way, you also had Andrew Melon, who was

the Treasury Secretary at the time,

working for Hoover, saying that, you

know, he was a true capitalist. his view

was you make money great, you lose

money, great didn't care. And so they

almost were like not really looking at

the problem. They almost Hoover used to

talk about as a psychological problem.

Um and that the stock market was

divorced from the real economy. But by

the time you get to 1932, as you said,

the market was down 90%. You had

unemployment in this country of 25%.

Think about that, 25% of unemployed

people. And then all of a sudden you had

about 9,000 banks effectively fail.

>> After researching this crash,

are you more or less confident that

we're on the precipice? So, we know the

correction is coming, but we don't know

if it'll be a soft correction or when

it's coming. Are you more or less

confident that there will be something

resembling, if not a crash, a

significant destruction in value in the

markets? So, I'm more convinced that

there'll be a destruction of value in

the markets, but probably more akin to

something like 1999

than 1929. Because the other thing to

remember is back in 1929 there was no

SEC, there were no bank capital

requirements, there was no bank act,

there was nothing. Insider trading that

the the ability to truly manipulate

things was what happened every single

day. I like to believe that we've

learned from that moment and so that if

we do have another crash, if you will,

that it is not as deep and not as

sustained. What I think I don't know

about today is I think it's harder to

fully understand where all the leverage

is today than we used to know. You know,

after 2008, so much of the the the loan

market in this country moved to private

credit. We don't really know all the

disclosures about that. Some of that's

connected into the insurance industry

now. So there's a lot of sort of

questions that I have and I also think

this AI boom which is sort of the

euphoria. I mean it's back then RCA was

the the Nvidia of its day. Now it's

Nvidia. How much of that whole boom is

being powered by leverage? So not to say

that you look at you know Meta and

Google and all the big tech companies

are obviously throwing a lot of their

own cash at this problem but also

they're taking on uh some debt but

they're also now partnering with all

sorts of private credit funds and doing

all sorts of other things. And we're not

just talking about the data centers

themselves. We're talking about, you

know, the energy companies uh that are

providing electricity and the

construction and real estate. There's

there's all sorts of other component

parts of this ecosystem that are being

powered by leverage.

>> Yeah. And if OpenAI is going to spend a

trillion dollars over the next 5 years

and they need 900 billion to come up

with, they can only borrow. That's one

of the things we've been talking about

on the podcast.

>> Well, you guys have been talking about

all these circular deals, right? These

sort of roundtrip transactions. That's

just another sign to me of a sort of

euphoric moment where there's not really

an ROI. There's sort of a religion about

where this is all headed directionally.

And by the way, they're probably right

directionally about where our whole

world is headed. Kind of like the

internet. Um but some of the spending is

indiscriminate,

>> right? It feels as though we're going to

enter the leverage phase where we're on

the precipice of that phase. Just when

you look through the circumstances of

the time, 1929, and you really paint

this picture in the book, you know, this

is coming off of an incredibly

prosperous time, postindustrial, gilded

age. All of these wealthy billionaires

who, as you say, are not just rich

people, but influencers. They're now on

the covers of magazines. They're on

Forbes and Time. You also talk about the

tariffs, the fact that tariffs were an

important issue that were being debated.

There's this tension between the

relationship with Wall Street and also

Washington and the amount of influence

that could be bought by people on Wall

Street in Washington. People beginning

to talk about that. What is so striking

about the book and that I think is so

resonant for so many people is the

extent to which it is a mirror of today.

I mean, all of the characters, all of

the conversations, you can pretty much

draw a direct link to what is happening

in America right now. I'd love for you

to just say a little bit more about

that, how it was such a similar time and

all of the connections that you feel you

made when writing this book.

>> I try not to be prescriptive in the book

because when I started this book, I

thought I was really just trying to

write a story about a particular moment

in time. And as I was writing it and

obviously all of these things are

happening in the news that we're

reporting on every day and we're reading

about in in the pages of the papers and

talking about on TV and on your podcast

and everything else. It started, you

know, there were these like alarm bells

going off. Oh my goodness, this is

parallel to this and this is parallel to

that. So I I I just want to sort of say

up front that wasn't it wasn't the goal.

The fact that the book is coming out now

is it's only a function of the fact that

I finally finished the book. uh much to

my much to my family's uh delight

frankly because they were

>> eight years right

>> I went into it thinking I could pull it

off in maybe two or three years and of

course then it it dragged on but it was

a it was a labor of love you know you

talk about different characters being so

similar there's a guy named John Rascco

who I actually think may be the most

interesting person in the book he is the

Elon Musk of his era he was sort of a

philosopher king um one of the would

have been if there was if there was a

Forbes list back then he would have been

on it he ran general Motors was the one

who actually decided uh to start lending

people money to buy cars. That's

actually what by the way changed the way

people even thought about credit for the

first time. So it was a moral sin in

this country uh in large part prior to

that to even take on a loan of any sort

and and he sort of made that available

to the masses then tried to create a a

mutual fund that would have been levered

effectively. So he used to say everyone

ought to be rich. Um he built what was

then the SpaceX of its time in the

Empire State Building. He was he was the

single individual uh behind that. At one

point he by the way gets into politics.

He actually had been a Republican.

Switches to be a Democrat in this case

to try to take on Hoover working with Al

Smith. Loses by the way then spends a

lot of his money paying off journalists

and um you know if he owned Twitter oh

my goodness you know really trying to

undermine the reputation of Hoover

secretly for years. In fact, I would

argue Hoover's reputation even to this

day was damaged by this guy John Rascco.

And then John Rascob very cleverly came

up with an idea that actually I would

argue changed America in the large way

which is today we work only 5 days a

week. Back then we worked six days a

week. Uh the stock market was open on

Saturdays. And he had this idea that she

wrote about in November of 1929 that you

know what we should have a 5-day work

week because not cuz he wanted to be

nice to people because he thought that

if you actually had an extra day during

the weekend it would create a bigger

consumer economy. More people would have

to buy cars. They'd have places to go.

They'd buy gardening equipment and

everything else. So again you sort of

see these people in this sort of

parallel-like universe. And yet the

opening quote or the epigraph in the

book which I think is so good is this

quote from Albert Einstein he said this

in 1929 3 days before Black Tuesday. He

said quote the ordinary human being does

not live long enough to draw any

substantial benefit from his own

experience and no one it seems can

benefit by the experiences of others.

Being both a father and a teacher I know

we can teach our children nothing. each

must learn its lesson a new and I think

that is kind of the crucial point here

which is you're describing a situation

that looks very similar to what is

happening today we know what happened in

the aftermath we know that there was a

stock market crash that led to a period

of depression but you also open the book

and with the by saying you know we have

to learn our lessons ourselves

>> we do and by the way let me just say

here we are being very depress it's very

depressing to to think oh everything's

go off a cliff. The truth is that,

you know, over time the market goes up.

You know, a lot of people, by the way,

since this book came out, they said,

"Oh, Andrew, you know, you're calling

for a crash. It's all going to end

terribly. What are you saying?" And the

truth is that you could have all the

Cassandra in the room um you know,

saying the sky is going to fall. But

over time, things have gone up. And I do

think that's worth noting because being

a professional optimist has been a

better business than being a

professional skeptic. Um, again over

time, that's not to say, you know, if

you need the money in the moment of a

crisis or a panic, you have a problem,

but if you can if you if you don't,

things will get better. And one other

piece that I've grappled with a lot

actually writing this book,

>> I've actually come to the conclusion

that actually speculation in some way

built America. Um, you know, we all

think that speculation is this dirty

word, but whoever did bet on Elon Musk

when he was doing Tesla and it seemed

like an absurd idea that was a

speculation unto itself. And you know,

so much of the sort of generational

change technologically and otherwise

came from speculators. Now, the problem

with speculation is you're trying to

thread some kind of crazy needle, which

is you want some semblance of

speculation in the system, but you don't

want it to go overboard. And that's that

is the million trillion dollar question.

How do you do that?

>> I mean, as someone who studied that

time, what lessons can we learn such

that when or if but I think we probably

all agree when the stock market

corrects, it's not as painful and as

destructive as it was back then.

>> Well, the first piece is what do you do

on the front end to try to avoid a

crash? And that might be by the way

raising interest rates uh if you're if

you're the Federal Reserve even in the

face of some of these other issues

around employment uh and the like. When

you look at an AI boom that's taking

place in our country today. I mean right

now the the problem is we or the

challenge I would argue is we have such

an imbalance in our economy. I don't

know if you guys read Jason Ferman at

Harvard just wrote this paper. If you

literally take out all of the money

that's been funneled into sort of the

data center buildout in America, you

would have basically flat GDP

>> in our country. Uh you know, maybe a

0.1% or something like that, I think he

he concluded.

>> So that's a very complicated scenario.

How how do you cut off what seems like a

speculative sort of fury and you want

that innovation but but you also now

especially because it because of the

concentration you don't want to sort of

tip over the rest of it. So I think part

of it is what do you do on the front end

and then on the back end what do you do

which is and the answer typically is you

flood the system with money as

politically unpopular as that is that's

going to become increasingly more

complicated because of our fiscal

imbalances which is to say back in 1929

for better or worse we had a budget

surplus. This country hardly had any

debt. the more you start to flood the

system with money now, you create all

sorts of other new problems for yourself

because at some point bond holders in US

treasuries are going to raise their hand

and say, "You know what? We don't really

like this that much. We're happy to lend

you money, but you're going to have to

pay us a lot more for that risk."

We'll be right back after the break. If

you liked what you heard, hit follow and

subscribe to our YouTube channel for

more.

We're back with Propy Markets. The way

this reminded me a little bit of your

book, Too Big to Fail, is you're very

good at putting people in the room. Like

there's there's a couple meetings or

scenarios in both books where you feel

like you're literally in the room. And I

what I would ask you to do is put us if

if someone said, "Put me in the room

in October of 2025." like you you see

the markets every day. You're literally

someone who's taking the blood pressure

and the you know taking the in the pulse

of the markets every day. You see it and

you've been doing this a while. If you

tried to remove yourself from this age

and objectively look at what's going on

and you wanted to put someone in the

room the markets today, how would you

describe it? Okay. Okay. So, if I could

write about today, what I would want to

do is try to recreate the scenes where

Sam Alman is putting together the

transaction not with Jensen Wong, but

actually uh maybe with Lisa Sue, who

runs AMD,

because you would see both of them

either on a phone call or probably on a

Zoom, maybe in a room together. I I

don't know the specifics of how it all

happened, but I I think you you'd get to

see the conversation. And you get to

understand the motivations that Sam

desperately wants this build out, feels

like he really needs uh, you know, to

buy all of this compute. You have Lisa

Sue at AMD desperate to get into this

sort of chip game which she's losing to

Nvidia. And so so her motivations are I

need to get into this.

How how is how are they going to make a

deal? In this case, they create this

sort of odd circular transaction where,

you know, OpenAI gets, you know,

warrants in AMD knowing that if they

announce this deal likely, and I'd love

to see that conversation, we think that

the warrants are going to be worth a lot

more because of this connection between

the two and then that's going to create

value which OpenAI can use effectively

as cash at some point to pay for the

chips that it otherwise couldn't afford

to buy.

I would want to see that conversation

and then I would want to see some

conversation after it where you know Sam

is briefing you know President Trump and

Scott Besson on it and then maybe the

breakfast that Scott Bessant has um with

you know Powell you know once a week

they have lunch together or breakfast

together. So yeah, I would be trying to

tell those stories as a way of sort of

bringing you inside of today's economy

and trying to understand, you know, how

much anxiety all of these individuals

really have or don't have in these

moments.

>> So circular deals, that would be an

interesting room. I'm curious, and

obviously my political innings are going

to come out here. I'd love to be in the

room where he's basically saying to Mark

Zuckerberg or Sam Alman or give me a 100

million bucks and I'll I will pass AI

legislation that lets you molest every

piece of IP out there. It it strikes me

that this age and I'm I'm I'm putting

forward a thesis that what will mark

this age economically

is this orgy of corruption and flatout

grift. Your thoughts, Andrew? Look, I

think that there um unfortunately is a

lot of grift uh in this moment. And by

the way, maybe that grift will

ultimately look like the kind of grift

that we had in 1929, but just in a

different form, right? I think that's

that's possible. Was it on this scale or

was it worse? And I ask that sincerely,

was it on the same level as this or

worse, better? Well, so in the stock

market itself back then, you literally

had all sorts of like demonstrable

insider trading and manipulation going

on where literally the specialist on the

floor was often times organizing what

was called a a an operation, a pool

operation where they effectively almost

like actors were, you know, one person

would say, I'm up for, you know, I'm

buying a 120 then 140, but they all knew

exact, they were all in it together.

That is happening today in crypto.

That's happening in the meme stock

arena. Uh I told a story on 60 Minutes

about this and it was such a wild

situation for me personally back in

January. Uh somebody created something

called a Sorcin coin. Um I happened to

be on TV with Larry Frink and he

mentioned uh that he joked that there

should be a Sorcin coin. Somebody

actually created one. All of a sudden,

millions of dollars are trading and and

I kept getting invited into these, uh,

Telegram accounts, uh, sort of chat

rooms and signal chat rooms, and they're

all talking about how they're actually

going to manipulate the coin and and

press it up. And they all were trying

to, they wanted me to be involved in it

because they were trying to they thought

if I endorsed it, it would go go up. In

fact, one of them reached out to one of

my sons uh online on social media, found

him and was was offering him, I think,

$50 or $100,000 worth of Sorcin coin to

try to get him uh to somehow, I don't

know, do something. And I had to call my

son and say, "Look, you cannot talk to

these people. I beg you, we're all going

to go to jail and be arrested. You

cannot please do not reply." And of

course, my son said to me, "Dad, I'm

leaving a lot of money on the table."

>> That's what Eric Trump probably said,

too.

I think of you as being like if I was

asked to have five people that sort of

embody New York to me and different

angles of it, different complexions of

it, you would be one of those people. I

just think of you as the consmate New

Yorker.

Talk to me about Cuomo versus Mommy. I'd

love to just give looking at it through

the lens of the markets. I know you talk

to and are you're you're both young

enough to I think understand the appeal

of Mandami but also you talk you speak

to every day to some people some market

players who are very seem vehemently

opposed to him. What do you think this

says about the moment? It says about the

moment in New York. Oh goodness. Look, I

think what it really says about the

moment is that the Democratic Party has

struggled to find the best possible

candidates to actually put up on the

board. I mean, I think that's that's why

this is to the degree that people are

questioning how did this happen?

Obviously, Mandami it felt like came out

of nowhere. Cuomo is a um

comp it's complicated for people to

support him uh for lots of reasons and I

think you know a lot of those reasons. I

don't even have to spell them out. And I

think it's very complicated for a lot of

other people to support Mandami in part

because he he is he's not a democratic

socialist. He actually is a socialist if

you go and listen to what he talks

about. I mean he is he does

demonstrabably talk about seizing the

means of production like he says that

out loud. He has said that. Um and so I

think that those sort of the idea of a

city that's built on capitalism being

run by somebody who demonstrabably does

not believe in it and not just doesn't

believe in it but wants to fundamentally

change it is a fascinating development

in our city. I think the bigger

questions though that are are animating

the likes of, you know, some of the

hedge fund managers and some of the most

outspoken Wall Streeters that you hear

actually have have nothing to do, oddly

enough, with, you know, free buses and,

you know, free groceries. I don't think

that's what this is about. I think that

this is actually about something very

different. I think this is about

policing and safety in the city and

whether he is going to not just keep um

you know commissioner Tish in charge but

you know how he's going to reallocate

resources around policing in this city

and I think we have lived in this city

and had lots of problems over the last 5

years. Uh the pandemic really

exacerbated it. We also had a lot of

laws change that made, you know, common

thievery, you know, um, something that

doesn't even get prosecuted in large

part. So, I think there's a big question

about that. I think it starts with with

that. I think there's this this question

about anti-semitism, to be honest with

you, is a real question. I think that's

like a real legit question that people

I'm Jewish that people have in this city

about what does he actually believe and

how is that going to manifest itself

over the next couple of years um in the

city

and then I and then I think you know I

know people talk about taxes and people

think he's not going to be able to raise

the tax thing I think is almost a red

herring uh to to sort of just a larger

question about can he manage the city I

think that's actually another big piece

of this, which is to say he's a young

man. He's 33. A lot of people are super

excited about him as a politician um and

what he's what he represents and speaks

to in terms of the big ideas around

affordability and the like. But when it

comes to actually the the practical

day-to-day of actually like managing a

city when it's pretty clear that he's

never done anything like that and to the

extent that he's managed things in this

role as an assemblyman that he wasn't

even like doing the job half the time. I

think a lot of people look at that that

are in the business of Wall Street. I'm

here at the NASDAQ today. I think those

are the issues they're thinking about.

the mayoral race is an executive or

operational position and it's about

making sure the MTA works and that

there's policing. So, to a certain

extent, his views on Israel are I don't

want to say they're not important, but I

feel like we have bigger fish to fry in

terms of where we expend our political

capital. And I think it's just as it's

going to be hard for him to raise taxes

because the logistics of the of having

to get the governor and the state

legislature on board, you know, his

views on Israel or on Jews. I see why

it's meaningful, but I don't think it's

profound here. And I think I do think

there's been some Islamophobia. By the

way, I think that's probably true.

>> As the Cuomo campaign gets desperate,

it, you know, they running ads and or

affiliated parties running ads of the,

you know, the planes slamming into the

Twin Towers. I just think that's that

shit's ugly. Um, you know, I'd mean this

sincerely, Andrew. I'd love to see you

run for office, but um it feels very it

feels like more of a statement on our

politics that you kind of think, wait,

this is the best we can do.

>> Well, that's the saddest part. Nobody

wants to take these jobs. I mean, that's

the thing. And I don't know how we

change that. By the way, that's not just

a New York New York City mayo problem.

That's a problem around the country.

Nobody wants

with very few exceptions. I don't want

to say nobody wants these jobs, but I

don't know what would it take for for us

to uh to get you, Scott, to uh to run

for something. If I was your age, I

would do it, Andrew. It's just that I'm

barreling towards death and I want to go

to AA and hang out with my friends and I

I would absolutely do it cuz I'm a

narcissist and I'm wealthy, which are

the two primary qualifications to run

for office. Um, but no, I I think a guy

your age, I'm hoping Ed someday decides

to get involved in public service. Ed,

you want to run? You want to get dragged

through the mud, Ed? You don't want to

get dragged through the mud every day

and have people on TikTok saying this

crazy stuff.

>> I want to make the money first.

>> But you're right. Your your point is

unless we start uh stop these on the

left purity tests and unless on the

right we they stop being in my opinion

just so [ __ ] crazy and coarse and

cruel, who the hell's going who who who

with any options and has a nice life and

isn't a total megalomaniac is going to

want to do this [ __ ]

>> Andrew, you you speak a lot with the

business world. you have kind of like a

direct line of communication with all of

the top executives, the people on Wall

Street, the business community at large.

And I it's interesting to hear that

there are concerns in New York

specifically with Mandani about the

policing in general, but socialism at

large, you know, you mention the the

strangeness of the the capital of

capitalism being run by a socialist.

However, at the same time, this is

spreading across the nation actually.

You've got 46% of Americans saying they

don't support capitalism or they have a

problem with capitalism. You've got

support for socialism at an all-time

high in America. So yes, it's strange,

but it's actually increasingly not

strange. The extent to which socialism

is being embraced by people and people

are losing faith in the capitalist

system, which to me is going to be kind

of the great referendum of our time. Do

we like capitalism? Do we like the

system that we've inherited or do we

not? I would love to get your sense of

what the business community uh thinks

about this question and also if they are

concerned and also taking it seriously.

Do they think that this is a real

problem? So I think they're concerned. I

don't think they're taking it seriously

though I'm not sure what it would take

to take it seriously. I mean what they

would be doing.

And what's so unique, by the way, in

this city in particular, I I recognize

the polls suggest otherwise in terms of

just the view about socialism. If you

ask most, at least the experience that

I've had of, and this is anecdotal,

people who are voting for Mandami, they

say, "Well, he's not really a

socialist." They'll say, "Actually, no,

he's not a socialist. He's a democratic

socialist. That's a very different

thing." So I don't think they actually

think that their way of life is going to

fundamentally change in part because

they think they don't think he can he

can actually change it given you know

the roles, responsibilities and powers

that that a mayor has. But I do think

there is this larger question uh about

capitalism versus socialism in the same

way that I think there's this question I

think this actually came out of 2008 and

the financial crisis a complete and

utter um rethinking about experts

expertise

institutions

all of that sort of was put up in the

air as a question and by the way I think

that's almost a straight line to

President Trump winning in 2016. I think

those questions were raised again, by

the way, in the context of the pandemic.

And so, you know, it's one thing to

scream from the rooftop and say, "Guys,

look at history. Capitalism is the thing

that actually works. Socialism is the

thing that actually doesn't work."

Because they look at you and they say,

"I I don't believe you or I don't care

because I'm trying to find, you know, I

believe in my own truth."

We'll be right back. And for even more

markets content, sign up for our

newsletter at

profgmarkets.com/subscribe.

We're back with Prof Markets. This has

been fascinating, but I want to uh hear

more about the book, specifically your

process. Um, one of the things I admire

about you is the fact that you do

everything. It's kind of insane. I mean,

you're you're on you're the anchor on

CNBC. You're you started Dealbook at the

New York Times. You're writing for

Dealbook. You're doing all of these

different things. And you're writing

books, by the way, not to mention the

shows, the fact that you wrote and and

produced billions. Um, how did you what

was your process? Like I know that you

went to the libraries and you were, you

know, filing through all these

documents. It's like tell us about what

it took to actually write this book

while juggling an extremely demanding

career.

>> So the truth is I did think I was going

to be able to do this in two or three

years. Obviously I couldn't do that. And

part of it was I did have uh you know

these other responsibilities that I

needed to uh make sure that I was

attending to every single day.

I would do this on weekends. I would do

it on nights. I would do it in between

things. You know for the first couple

years I was researching like crazy. uh

just trying to find lots of different

material that actually there were some

stumbling blocks along the way. Then by

the way the pandemic happened and

actually at one point I thought I

thought the pandemic might go on for a

very long time. I didn't even know what

I was going to do. You couldn't even get

inside some of these libraries around

the country. Um I actually almost

created like a black market. Uh I would

call up our we I along with a researcher

that I was working with at the time. We

would call up archavists, ask them what

students were allowed in libraries

because certain students who had like a

dissertation due or a thesis due were

allowed in. And I would pay those

students. I'd find them and pay them to

go through boxes through. So I'd say,

"Box 152, I need you to actually with

your iPhone take a picture of every

single page and send it to me." Um, now

in the end I went back to actually most

of those libraries afterwards because I

did feel the sort of the tactileness of

of seeing it but it was really like a

mystery. It was like putting a puzzle

together uh in a way of trying to find

all the material and also to think

through these different characters to

figure out what were their motivations

and what was what was the chip on the

shoulder? What was the hole that these

people were were trying to fill? Because

I I always think and you guys actually

talk about this. I think what drives a

lot of a lot of people especially at the

top um is some semblance of insecurity

actually. And so trying to understand

what that insecurity even is so that

when you actually see them making

decisions even when you think the

decisions are completely irrational or

make no sense or the wrong decisions or

immoral you say to yourself uh but I I

remember reading earlier in the book

about what what was happening with this

guy as a kid or as a this or that. And

all of a sudden it makes it at least

relatable or understandable so you so

you can appreciate why these things are

happening.

>> Why are you so industrious? It's kind of

a broad question but

>> why are you so ambitious?

>> Yeah. No, seriously. I I

>> because I have a hole that I'm trying to

fill.

>> Fair enough. But can you I I would like

to hear like just going inside the mind

of Andrew Arin. you are this superstar

and you're reaching out to I mean

imagine being a college student you get

a DM from Andrew Ross Sin asking for for

a photo I mean what drives you I was

driven to write this book because of my

own curiosity about the topic but you

know I think part of it was could I do

it like I honestly think part of this I

think actually a lot of the things that

I do is a like trying to prove to myself

that I'm capable

um like could I pull it off? You know,

when I wrote Too Big to Fail in 2008 and

N, it was like lightning in a bottle.

And I think if you know me well enough,

you know that I sort of have thought for

a long time like that. Maybe that was

just like a lucky thing. Um and I don't

know, maybe I got the timing right and

the this and the that. And so I think,

you know, to some degree, I think for

me, I'm always trying to push myself to

see, well, could I do it again? Uh, was

it luck? Was it not luck?

You know, I think I probably have the

same insecurities, frankly, that a lot

of that I think most people have to some

degree. And so I I think I hate to say

it, but I think that that probably

drives you more than it should. I think

what we've learned about you as well is

that you are an incredibly good

storyteller. I mean, for those who read

read the book, it's kind of I said it

should be a movie because it's kind of

insane how much it feels like you're

watching a movie. I mean, the same could

be said about like Harry Potter as an

example. You read the page and it's like

you can see everything that's happening

in front of you. And so what that is

really the remarkable thing about this

book. Um I'm just would love to hear uh

you know we want to tell great stories

on this show. Uh it's an incredible

skill. We think it's one of the most

important skills in the age of AI. What

is your advice for how to tell a great

story and how did you get so good at

storytelling?

>> Thank you. I don't know if I'm a great

storyteller. I think I I love the story

of people more than anything else. I

mean, it's interesting because people

have written about 1929 and have done

very well writing about 1929, but they

typically write in the context of

economics and cycles and systems. And

I'm fascinated by people because I

ultimately believe people make

decisions, good and bad, that ultimately

impact and create those economic cycles

and systems. And so, I'm always looking

to tell the story through those people.

And I feel like that's the most

relatable way. And frankly, for me, the

way I even understand the world,

um, you know, I'm not trying to be

humble or something by saying I'm not

that smart. I'm not that smart to

sometimes I hear people talking about

things in these sort of very to me it's

very confusing. I actually don't

understand what they're talking about uh

when they talk about certain things. But

when you tell me the story through a

person and the way they were feeling and

then why they were doing what they're

doing and then connect it to the

economic cycles and systems and all

those things, then for some reason I get

it. And so I find myself writing that

way.

>> I think that's the way we try to talk

about markets on this show too, which I

think there's a void in the market,

which is like it's it's all people

running society. So, if you understand

the people, then you'll start to

understand why things are happening and

the reason that things unfolded the way

they did. What is very interesting and a

little bit crazy to me about this book

is you're describing people who are not

alive, who you've never met before, and

I assume you had to kind of fill in the

blanks. How did you

uh get to know all of the characters in

1929 considering the fact that you don't

know them? I mean, this was literally

reading the diaries, reading the

letters, reading the transcripts,

reading the memos, reading all sorts of

uh materials, reading what their friends

were saying about them in those moments.

Um, you know, some of the material I

found wasn't just in the moment. It

might have been from 10 and 20, 30

years, even later. Um, you know, I found

materials that some of their kids had

written about some of the the

characters. And so, again, I think I was

just trying to figure out who they were.

And I think I try to put myself in their

shoes. I mean, I think I try to do this

today with people who are alive. I try

to think to myself, well, if I was so

and so, even when I disagree with them,

um, you know, why do they think what

they think? And so, I think I tried to

do that in this context, but everything

you read, if you see a quote or an

emotion or it came from somewhere. It's

there's hundreds of pages of endnotes in

this book to really so you can actually

see where the material came from. It's

not that I had to really craft it in my

head. Though I will say having covered

the crisis of 2008, I think that

actually helped me a lot understand sort

of the emotional state of humans in

those moments and sort of like what they

do and who they call and uh what happens

in those moments. So I was I think I was

purposely looking for some of those

things as I was going through the

material.

>> Just on that point of getting to know

people, I think you're good at it at

figuring out what's going on in their

head. Um, I'd like to throw out a few

characters. See what you think is going

on in their head.

Sam Elman,

he says, "We're gonna spend a trillion

dollars. He's cooking up these deals

with Lisa Sue. He's going to Larry

Ellison." Um, everyone's saying it's a

bubble. Everyone, many people are

calling him scam Alman. What do you

think is going through his head right

now when he comes out with these deals

that a lot of people believe are

dangerous that he's playing with fire?

Do you think he recognizes that? Do you

think he ignores it and believes that we

just have to build AI no matter the

cost? What do you think is going on in

his head?

>> I don't want to speak for Sam. I I've

known Sam for a while. I think and I've

covered, you know, a lot of what they've

done over these past years. I think that

he believes in his heart there's an that

there's an inevitability to this

technology uh its emergence and

ultimately to AGI that that he believes

that there is a straight line to that

and that whether he does it or somebody

else does it that's that's the end state

and so as a result I think he's thinking

I want to be the one who gets there

first And

while I do believe he's concerned to

some degree about the implications of

these things in terms of safety and the

like and their implications on our

society, I think because of that sort of

sense of inevitability that he is

convinced of.

If you believe that too, these other

issues oddly do sort of fall to the to

the wayside.

>> If you were going to start a media

company from scratch right now, what

would it look like? Maybe some it would

be a combination of what you're doing

mixed with what Alex Cooper's doing. No

joke. And by the way, I admire what the

TB TBN guys are doing. I mean, I think

it would be you'd be sort of a

combination of sort of podcast meets

video uh probably meets product and

selling certain types of products. I

think you could do I mean what's so

interesting to me this is a much longer

conversation is just how the audience

has shifted in terms of what you think

the sort of traditional rules should be

in the context of most people who are

involved in sort of this new podcast

realm you know are venture capitalists

or this or that and they have all sorts

of stakes in different things and for

whatever reason the audience I think

doesn't care so maybe the world has

changed I don't know but I think those

are some real questions but I think once

you crack that then I think the whole

whole thing opens ends up into doing all

sorts of interesting things.

>> I was asking this when you're on and I'm

I think people anyone who knows you

knows you're a pretty soulful guy. Any

thoughts for a guy like Ed who doesn't

have kids or a wife yet on your

learnings as a dad and a husband?

>> Be straight with me.

>> I'll be totally straight with you. First

of all, and I think Scott said this. I

think professionally when you're young

before you have kids, do everything. Do

everything you possibly can do. Um

because I do think one of the great

conundrums and challenges of being a dad

and being a father and having a

professional life is the complication of

trying to do both well and it's hard.

And I tell myself all the time, Scott,

that you know, if I write this book and

they see me working hard on it and they

see me care about something, hopefully

they're going to care about something. I

worry that, you know, they're going to

um they could have a, you know, there

could be a backlash. Interestingly, I'll

tell you about my own father. Um, my

father was a lawyer and he worked so

hard. I mean, he worked he acted like a

first year associate till he retired.

And I thought to myself, I'm never going

to work that hard. This is crazy that

he's working this hard. Why is he

working on the weekends all the time?

What's he doing? This is insane.

And

yet here I am. And what I realized I do

think is true. I think if you love

something, and I'm so blessed to have

found something I love, I'm hoping I'm

praying that if they see me love

something as much as I do and as much as

I love them, not to say that I love them

more. I mean, I love them more and I

hope they know that, but that they will

hopefully be able there for find a

passion or understand that you could

find something that you could love to do

that much. Again, these are all things I

tell myself and whether we'll we'll know

in 20 or 30 years when I get, you know,

the bill from the psychiatrist for the

kids. So, you tell me.

>> We're going to be billing you. Any any

marriage advice?

>> Find somebody who

you could talk to forever.

That's the thing for me with my wife. I

could talk to her forever. I just we

never get sick of each other. It's the

craziest thing. When I first met her, I

was actually scared to date her because

I felt like um I felt like I'd known her

so long. It was like a weird connection

thing. I was like, "This feels weird to

me." Um so yeah, if you can find that,

that's a pretty pretty special thing.

>> Andrew Rossin is a financial economist

for the New York Times and the editor at

large of Dealbook. He is also co-anchor

of Squawkbox, CNN, the NBC's signature

morning program. His latest book, 1929:

Inside the Greatest Crash in Wall Street

History and How It Shattered a Nation,

is available now. Andrew, uh, this was

fantastic as always.

>> This was a lot of fun. Thank you,

gentlemen. Really appreciate it. You

guys do such a great job.

>> Thanks, brother.

[Music]

>> Ed, what do you think of the Canadian

spy? You know that, right? You know, he

works for the Canadian Intelligence

Service.

>> Anyone that nice, he's definitely he's

definitely funneling back trade secrets

to Canada.

>> There's something wrong. He's too

successful, too humble, too kind.

Yeah, it's there's I there's something

off with him. There's got to be, right?

What do you think?

>> I'm fond of Andrew. I don't know him

well, but I know him and I like him and

I want him to succeed. And I find that

he's actually quite I think because he

has such a powerful seat at CNBC, he's

actually he gives it to you pretty

straight. He's not afraid to push back

or I I I really enjoy really speak uh

speaking to him. Also, his books, if you

write books, you see how hard they are

and within 10 or 12 pages, you can

usually tell if a they wrote it and b if

they did the work. And Andrew does the

work. It doesn't it doesn't surprise me

that book took him seven or eight years.

like when he writes a book, he really

takes it on. He does a lot of research.

He really goes deep. And so I his his

books kind of like I said, they put you

in the room and they they put you in the

period and they put you in that time. A

very talented guy. He nice family man,

good friend. Yeah. Just kind of one of

those guys kind of has it all. I would

love to see Andrew

uh run for office. I think he's very

pragmatic, very likable. I think he'd be

a great mayor of New York. I think he'd

be I think he'd win. And he's got a

blend of the kind of empathy and

humanity that you want and someone in

public service, but at the same time, I

think in New York, you have to have

someone who understands finance and

markets

and he gets those things. Your thoughts?

>> I'm struck by the book. I'm struck by

his ability to tell a story. I'm struck

by his work ethic as exemplified by the

amount of work that he does and all of

his different media outlets and the

amount of work the insane amount of work

that he had to put in to produce this

book. I mean, if you read the book and

you read sort of like the prologue about

how he did it, it's it's it's kind of

unbelievable. The thing that I am most

um impressed by with Andrew, I think, is

his humility and his kindness. And I

know that sounds kind of mushy and

whatever, but I I really am. And you

know, when we had him on the show for

the first time, I I've been a fan of his

for for a long time and I you know, I

reached out to him to uh get coffee and

and chat

>> and get a job. Is that what you're

telling me?

>> Wait, hold on. Just by accident, you

decided to have coffee with another

financial media personel. Yeah. Yeah.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Just you just

wanted you wanted him to you wanted him

to mentor you. Yeah. That's right.

That's right. Memo to self interviewing

with competitors. Okay. Great. Sorry. Go

ahead.

>> Well, the the it doesn't matter what I

thought. The most important thing uh he

he doesn't need to meet with me. I'm

like a pipsqueak compared to him. He

doesn't really get much out of it, but

he was so willing, uh, so interested, so

kind. Um, you know, met with me for a

long time, was very honest about the

struggles that he's had in his career,

what he thinks he's good at, what he

thinks he's not good at. Uh, a level of

humility coming from a person who was so

successful is just always striking. I

mean, the way he kind of was telling me,

you know, here's what I think I got

wrong. By the way, I think this is what

a lot of people appreciate about you.

Um, but I think my learning from it is I

think kindness

and generosity is not only a good thing

in of itself, but it also gets you very

far. And when you talk to anyone about

Andrew Ross Sawin, when you ask anyone

about, you know, what he's like, uh, the

kind of man he is, everyone's review,

it's a glowing review of how kind he is

as a person. And I do believe that it is

not all of his success. I think it's a

big piece of his success. It's it's why

uh people want to work with him. People

want to have him on their show. People

want to represent him. I think he is a

really good example of what kindness can

do for your career uh and the way it can

actually be quite powerful in terms of

uh your career ambitions.

>> I think there is a lesson there and

we've said this a couple times on the

show that there's a cartoon of very

successful people that they're Monty

Burns that in order to be that

successful you have to crawl over

people. And I think unfortunately that's

a common theme among the far left. Uh,

and I think where the right has gotten

right is they celebrate success whereas

I think sometimes on the far left were

suspicious of it. And what I have found

is that exceptionally successful people

generally speaking overindex on

kindness. They're generally good people

because one of the keys to success is

being put in a room of opportunities

when you're not physically in that room.

And the way you get there is through

kindness and doing things for people

where there doesn't appear to be any,

you know, expectation of reciprocal

benefit. and you just kind of memoed

yourself, I'd really like to do this

person a solid someday.

>> Yeah, I think I think there are

different ways to do it. I mean, I think

you can you can find examples of very

successful [ __ ] one of which would

be Trump, another of which would be Elon

Musk. But I think to your point there

there are several different ways to be

successful. And I think there is an

image that is being projected that if

you want to be rich, if you want to be

influential, you got to be an [ __ ] to

people. You got to steamroll over

people. And that actually is not true.

And there are many examples, as you say,

of people who actually got to where they

are because they formed connections and

friendships. They were generous. They

did people favors and it all comes back

to them in in in the form of career

karma, let's say.

>> Yeah. I also just I can't help be

triggered by whenever you mention Donald

Trump and Elon Musk, you also have to

define what success is. You're talking

about one person.

>> It's true, too. Those guys are not

happy.

>> Sleeps with a loaded gun next to his

bed. is radically addicted to ketamine

and is in custody fights with two

different women over custody of a child

that he has not seen. I would not

describe that as a success. And Donald

Trump's wife wants nothing to do with

him. The East Wing used to be with the

fir used to be the first lady's

residence and they quickly figured out

she doesn't need it. Have you ever I

mean literally has anyone heard from the

first lady? She wants nothing to do with

her husband. Nothing to do uh w- with

him. I mean, he's raising a bunch of

Nepo kids who Anyways,

different definition different. You're

more successful than either of those

people, Ed. All right, let's move on.

Clip it.

>> Clip it.

>> Clip it.

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