In that time frame,

early '90s or just '90s I suppose writ

large, what was it like being a woman in

the police force? It was a really tough

environment when I first got there.

There were a few days in the very

beginning when I was an officer that you

know, the good thing about the officer

like when I got there the department was

85 probably percent African-American.

The city was largely 89%

African-American, so largely

African-American. Certainly very few

white females. There was very few

females. So I would think we were about

11% women on the department of 5,000,

5,200 I think when I came on

size of our department. So very few

women, very few white women. It's hard

to think back to 1990. Sexual harassment

was

commonplace. Nobody talked about it.

Nobody cared about it. It wasn't an

issue. Like it just it it happened every

day and you just

you know, you work through it. I grew up

with two older brothers, so I kind of

knew how to navigate it a little bit,

you know, I'd listen my brothers gave me

advice how to deal with some of this.

The good thing is as an officer

you very quickly establish yourself.

And I established myself as an officer

early on as a worker. Like I came to

work, I did my job. I don't need anybody

to do me any favors. You don't need to

look out for me. I don't need a partner.

I can ride by myself. I'm good.

Once I made sergeant though, the

harassment got worse. I mean I I had a

lieutenant that was really really

sexually harassing. I mean not just me,

but several women.

Physical harassment. I mean like getting

you in a on a midnight shift in a

sergeant's office and closing the door

and you know, putting her hands on you

and things like that. I remember saying

to my boyfriend at the time, I was like,

you know what? I got real thick skin. I

can take all kinds of comments. I don't

mind any of that stuff. But I'm not

going to let people put their hands on

me. That's just not going to happen. So

the harassment was pretty intense. It

was a it was a really tough environment.

So what happened? I eventually

So I had a a lieutenant when I made

sergeant, and I was sent over to um

Southeast Washington. I was patrolling

in Southeast. I had really a good squad.

I worked nights, permanent nights. So, I

had a lieutenant that was harassing me

and some other women, but me pretty

intensely. Calling me on the radio,

forcing me to drive him around, putting

me in a cruiser with him, making me

drive him around.

Just not letting me do my job. Constant

harassment, calling me on the radio,

bringing me to the office, make me drive

him somewhere, things like that. So, I

finally, after several times of asking

him to leave me alone, I finally filed a

sexual harassment complaint. He had put

his hands on me several times.

So, I filed a complaint, and I remember

going down to the EEO office and filing

this complaint, and they asked me to

write a list of anybody who had ever

Well, first of all, before I went down,

my partner, one of my fellow sergeants,

who was a a black male officer, said to

me one day,

"We were out riding together. The

lieutenant had called me in." And my

partner said to me, the other sergeant

said,

"How long are you going to let this keep

going on before you do something about

it?" Mhm. And I was like, "What are you

talking about?" He's like,

"I hope you're writing this stuff down.

I hope you're going to say something to

somebody because this can't go on like

this." Again, a man, not a woman,

another male police officer, basically

said to me, "If you're not going to

stand up for yourself, nobody else is

going to stand up for you." And so, when

he said that, it

clicked, and I was like, he's trying to

say, "Either you're going to allow this

to keep happening, or you don't want it

to happen, and you do something about

it." So, I after that conversation, I

filed this complaint.

I list all the people who had witnessed

because my harasser made no no effort to

hide it. He made horrible comments and

grabbed

women in front of others all the time.

So, I listed it 17 different witnesses,

and they did the investigation, and

literally, I left the EEO office, I went

to court, I had court that day, and I

was in court 20 minutes after I left the

EEO office from filing my complaint, my

harasser, the lieutenant, texted me on

my beeper. We had beepers back then.

And said, "I know what you're doing and

you're not going to get away with this."

Like, so it was supposed to be

confidential, but within 20 minutes of

leaving the office, the person who was

doing my investigation called him and

told him that I had made a complaint.

>> Gross. So, I had to go back to work in

that environment, one of the most

violent areas of Washington D.C. From

that day forward, he prohibited me from

partnering with anybody. He refused to

allow me to ride with anybody else. He

continued the harassment. He you know,

came into my office the next day, shut

the door and said, "Look, I know that

what you're doing, you need to back

down. You need to withdraw this

complaint. You're not going to win."

They sustained the complaint. So, the

investigation, all the witness I listed,

they were all men.

I didn't think any of them would tell

the truth. Nobody wanted to go against

us higher ranking person. And every

single one of them told the truth. They

all wrote down what they saw. They all

not only talked about what they saw him

doing to me, but what they saw him doing

to other women. And I was just shocked.

Mhm. I always say to women, you don't

realize when you're in these scenarios,

decent men that observe these things

going on, they don't like it either.

Right? They don't like it either. And

and those other men that I was working

with, they didn't like it either. And

some of them, this guy had harassed

their girlfriends or their wives or you

know what I mean?

So,

that really

made an impression on me that so many of

the men that I work with stood up and

did the right thing there. So, when when

it was time for him to be disciplined

for this,

when we got to trial board,

I walk in a trial board for the

discipline to come down and they told me

they had to drop the whole case and

throw it out. And I'm like, "Why?

What happened?"

And they said, "Well, we missed the 90

days." In the District of Columbia, you

have to bring discipline within 90 days

of the day that you knew or should have

known about the misconduct. They sat on

this investigation till day 91 and then

turned it in. So, literally after all of

that, they threw the case out and they

said, "Well, we'll just transfer you.

Where do you want to be transferred to?"

And I was like, "I don't want to be

transferred. I didn't do anything wrong.

Don't transfer me. Transfer him. I

didn't do anything." He later had

several other complaints come forward

and eventually was terminated for a

severe case with another

multiple other subordinates later on.

But I will tell you this. Now,

everything above the rank of

captain in the police department is

appointed, right? You civil service exam

for sergeant, lieutenant, and captain.

After captain,

it's appointed by the chief of police.

You're an appointed rank, and you're

also at will. So, if you can get

appointed to inspector or commander, but

you also can get demoted with no cause,

either. So, I remember one of my

mentors, another mentor, a lieutenant.

There was a captain and a lieutenant

that were both good mentors to me there.

The captain of the two mentors I had

there

pulled me aside after this complaint and

said, "You did the right thing.

He's been harassing them in here for

years, and somebody needed to stand up,

so you did the right thing." He said,

"But just know you'll never make it past

the rank of captain." Because my That

lieutenant was very well connected at

the time to the chief of police. So,

very friendly with the chief of police,

that whole administration. So, I said,

"That's fine. Like, that's fine." I

wasn't thinking, you know, long-term

longevity and promotion. That actually

ties into what I was going to ask you

because it strikes me as

an incredibly brave thing to do. I

imagine not everyone in your situation

would have done that. I mean, in fact,

they didn't, right? I imagine there's a

lot of fear around There could be a lot

of fear around the political or job, you

know, professional repercussions of

voicing something like that, especially

during a period when that was not

common. Well, remember my driver in

life, Tim. If you think about this, and

harassers work this way.

My goal in life is to take care of my

son. I'm a single mom.

After he knew I made a complaint, he was

threatening my job. He was really making

it very difficult for me to come to

work. Like it was terrifying to come to

work, you know?

And

I was fighting for my job. I can't lose

my job. I have a son to take care of and

I'm not going to lose my job because

somebody wants to be a bully. And that's

the motivation. It was It was terrible.

I was sick to my stomach every day. I

was going in the bathroom and throwing

up. I mean, it was when I got to work

and just every time I heard his voice on

the radio, it was terrible for me. But I

also couldn't afford to lose my job. I

was not going to let somebody to force

me out of my goal. And I had a a son to

take care of, so I couldn't afford that.

I was going to fight until I

knew that I was safe. Yeah. I mean, it's

sort of focusing forcing function,

right? I mean, having that singular

priority. So, it seems like I mean, the

predictions about you never rising above

the rank of what was it, captain?

Captain. Seems like that fellow wasn't

exactly the the Nostradamus of of

predicting the future.

>> [laughter]

>> Could you walk us through sort of how

things

progressed and why were you able

to continue to excel? Did his prediction

just turn out to be completely false? I

think it would have been accurate. I I

tell you what, it the stars aligned for

me. So, I took sergeant test at 3 years.

I was eligible for lieutenant at 5. I

took the lieutenant's test at 5 years. I

came in number one on that test. I took

the captain's test 7 years. I came in

number three on that test. So, I got

promoted bang bang bang, 3 years, 5

years, 7 years. I was a captain at 7

years.

I would have never gone past the rank of

captain that current administration. And

then Marion Barry gets arrested, our

mayor. Mhm. Marion Barry is taken out

and replaced by the control board.

The control board comes in 1998. I'm a

captain at the time.

Marion Barry is now taken out of play.

The control board takes over. They bring

in Chuck Ramsey, an outsider who knows

nobody Mhm. in the department. He

doesn't know anybody. He's got no click.

He's got no boys. Mhm. Everybody's

fresh. So, he comes in as I'm lieutenant

just making captain, takes over the

police department as a complete

outsider, and is doing his assessment of

what officials, what command level

officials he wanted to have on his team,

and he appointed me from the rank of

captain to be an inspector to take over

a major narcotics branch with less than

8 years on the job.

I was 29, I think.