I think it's actually still kind of hard

for me to talk about but I am down to go

there your Square chin makes me feel

safe

[Music]

what's our mission Penny the

conversation starts on a horn field and

Rural Illinois being a queer feminine

child is hard there was sexual abuse and

there was bullying but all that trauma

came back into the most self-destructive

era I've had my face and a plate of coke

then I discovered zuck's work I got HIV

I put myself in so many really dangerous

situations someone pulled a gun on you

take me into that movement

the startup hairdresser and now your

name is on the Marquee of Radio City

your schedule's been crazy how are you

feeling great fall and at the same time

it really frustrated I just see so much

transphobic garbage all over the place

people really think that there's little

kids going to school as a boy and coming

home as a girl this is really serious

and so this has been a really hard time

and I think being a public figure who is

constantly expected to be a ray of

sunshine it can be challenging but why

I've been able to get to where I am is

like because I think I'm resilient I

have been able to sit with a lot of

Shame and like a lot of heartbreak and

still be joyful can you talk about your

trauma without becoming your trauma

do I get to ask the question of the next

person yes and also they'll be turned

into cards that people will play with

their families and stuff so it can't be

what's the [ __ ] thing you've ever

done

Jonathan Van ness's Story is an

impossible Story coming from a place of

sexual abuse sex work depression and

despair

to becoming the leader in his industry

The Story You're about to hear is not

only hilarious because that is what

Jonathan is but it's also the evidence

that you might need that passion and

resilience will take you to the place

that you want to go to this conversation

is going to make you laugh it's one of

the more real conversations I've ever

had with anyone on this podcast because

Jonathan doesn't hold back his story is

heart-wrenching it is unthinkable

and it's incredibly important

over the last couple of months there's

been this huge rise in the conversation

around trans rights and there's been a

huge rise in transphobia you've probably

seen it

today I'm going to ask him about that

where has it come from

what is the truth and if you're someone

like me that feels quite uncomfortable

about the narratives we're seeing in the

world

what can we do about it how can we help

it's time to have that uncomfortable

conversation

[Music]

one of them yes where do we need to

begin this conversation

to understand you

the conversation starts on a corn field

and Rural Illinois

in the late 80s

darling

what happens next oh

um well I went to school my I come from

a broadcasting family and like a family

of journalists I grew up my mom uh

worked in the local newspaper and

advertising and my dad worked in the TV

station uh so that's kind of where it

started I was born in 1987. I think that

was like another really interesting time

in queer history and what was to come

for the next few years

um being that it was like the height of

the height of the AIDS crisis and I

think understanding not understanding

that but

um being a very queer uh effeminate

small child in that time

um there was so much like anti-queer

vitriol then

um which I didn't like know that's what

it was called but I felt it and it's so

it's interesting being like this age now

and having like this Renaissance not in

the Beyonce way of like such anti-queer

sentiment you're five years old when

your parents separate

um

what's that like for you I actually just

had a joke about this in my new

um set my first reaction was like can I

have the ring like my brothers are

really devastated I just was like all

about that diamond like I've always

loved jewelry I was like oh my God that

would look great with my geodes so I

didn't really understand like any sort

of like emotional implication from like

my parents divorce

um love my dad love my mom but I was

like

I kind of I think I was like maybe too

young to fully understand I do think

that It ultimately set me on like um

like my stepdad and I I

my mom started dating him when I was

like six and I write a lot about him in

my first book over the top um his name

was Steve and so ultimately he taught me

so much about what it is to be a good

person what it is to have integrity what

it is to ask for help um he had been

sober for 28 years when he died in 2012

and he was like and me and my dad are

both really important to me but

Steve and my dad like were a really good

um you know role models in my life in a

lot of ways and but it took me like from

like six to like

16 to like like Steve uh but then I

eventually like really you know loved

Stephen appreciated him so much for all

the things that he taught me

oh thank you stay out

for context the shoulder thing is uh do

you want to explain Jonathan yes it's

like this gorgeous like little like tube

dress honey and what it can give you is

this like turtleneck moment but that's

giving me too much restriction it is

pride so we need the shoulder out

because it's really like this issiniaki

moment that's like the shoulders meant

to Peekaboo is that easy yeah that's

beautiful pretty right yeah I want to

screaming the microphone I just get so

excited talking about dresses

so he's just told us to what contingent

on this interview was us letting him

know whatever the the Izzy mizaki number

just slides a little too high we've got

to remind him to slide it down so if we

say shoulder that's what we mean

um how did you get on with your peers

when you're that age did you feel like

you fit fitted in per se no no

um but I did have some really good

friends and some people who I I think I

know I knew really early that friendship

was really important so I always had

like some really close friends

um but a lot of times I think there was

like you know quite a bit of like

widespread bullying but I think that

that really hit a fever pitch like more

like you know like sixth grade like post

sixth grade

like maybe pre that there was like

little murmurings and like a little bit

of weirdness but I think kids are like

so young at that age that they're not

really like or at least in my case it

wasn't like that horrific

um bullying wise at the time it was more

like post sixth grade I feel like but

also it's like so funny I just noticed

this like part of me that's like

like being 36 and still talking about it

like I feel like because I have

processed so much of it and I've worked

so hard on letting go of a lot of that

and

um

so like for me it doesn't really hold a

lot of

like

like Brittany Brown she talks about like

you know can you talk about your trauma

without becoming your trauma and I think

in like

I think it's actually still kind of hard

for me to talk about like I have this

like harder part that kind of comes up

and it's like oh like I just don't like

going there

but I am down to go there your Square

chin makes me feel safe but yeah you

know what I'm saying well you you take

me there you take me to where you want

to go because I I am in my own

experience only black kid in an

all-white school I grew up in Devon in

the southwest which is like the

countryside so I remember the feelings

of just const because it's a small town

as well and you're different this

constant feeling of almost

a constant state of like my body was

always in fight or flight almost just

like subtly and I read I read hints of

that in your story but please do tell me

um what your experience was no that

totally that absolutely resonates I

think I also write a lot about like this

idea that like

um like a lot of like joy and like

happiness can coexist with grief and

like shame like these emotions don't

necessarily like invalidate each other

so even though I did have

um a lot of hardships and there was

abuse and there was bullying and there

was a lot of othering like I think

that's why I'm still so obsessed with

figure skating and gymnastics like when

figure skating and gymnastics was on the

TV I was the happiest person of all time

like none of the other things mattered

so I think those kind of moments of like

escapism like were these really healing

moments why even now as an adult like

those types of things are so exciting

for me and I'm just like so into it

because it I think it like it strikes at

like that core memory of like

just being really into something else

um which I'm glad I'm still into that

even though I'm like more into my life

now than I was and obviously like I did

get out of there and I did like you know

a lot of my dreams came true

The escapism Well in that situation what

were you escaping from

feeling like really I mean it was like I

said a really queer kid and a very like

ciset world so my hometown is like my

family was like quite well known in my

hometown and I was really like

unabashedly myself and so there was a

lot of like feedback from that as I got

older

so that I think that was like a lot of

and I also was you know abused I'm

Survivor of sexual abuse so there was

like like I would hear about like other

kids and like you know whether it was

like poverty or like see it on the news

like kids or like even just like kids at

school like you know there's like kids

at school who like clearly are going

through it and like do not have the

access to the resources that you have

um but meanwhile I was like definitely

having people call me [ __ ] definitely

being sexually abused um and I remember

thinking like oh I'm glad I don't have

it as bad as like you know so it's like

it's interesting how like our

perspective like is like

just so funny like when you're a kid you

just don't have anything to compare it

to but looking back to it on it I'm like

I think I'm my little inner child and

like all the things that my nickname

growing up was Jack like what he went

through and I'm like oh my God honey

that was like so intense

you know like just growing up like there

and like having yeah it's intense

you've been really open about

um the incident of sexual abuse that

you've experienced and how that had a

sort of a skating impact on the rest of

your life is there a point where you

where someone around you highlights the

significance of that to you at that age

no I think that the problem with unlike

sexual abuse is so many and I you know I

don't like blame anyone for this because

it's just like what happens that there's

such this like an um insistence on like

like

not talking about it you know like like

don't let anyone find out and I

understand that because like you like

it's like you just don't want people to

find out like whether it's like bringing

shame on the church or bringing shame on

like why didn't anyone prevent this so

it's like it I don't think it was like I

think we just all wanted to like just

get through it and I don't think any

like there's so much shame and stigma

tied up in sexual abuse that I think

when it happens you're but at the same

time like my mom was really wanted to

deal with things like in a very head-on

way and like really when it was like

therapy like we gotta get like once she

knew she was like [ __ ] like God like but

then there was like other forces and

like other people and you know our lives

that were like I don't think and whether

that was like church leaders or other

people that were like I don't think

that's really you know like what happens

if you talk like does you really want

your kid to be like you know so they're

in essentially like small rural spaces

and I think that's part of what makes me

so angry when we think about

um you know when people say you know the

trans people are you know groomers or

drag queens or like all this idea like

queer people or groomers like there is

so much sexual abuse in churches there's

so much sexual abuse in rural

communities in urban communities and all

the communities and when you look at the

statistics most often it is like a man

that you know it is like a man in the

family A man in the church a friend of

the family it's someone that you know

it's like not random queer people

um and I just think

part of why we have these like

Fantastical ideas of like these threats

to our kids is because of the thing that

I was just speaking about that like we

don't talk about what really happens

because we want to keep it private and

we want to keep things really inside and

so when you're like um when you're

drawing like it just it makes it and

also it's like this like smoke and

mirrors thing when you're saying that

it's one thing it's like gaslighting

really from this whole other thing which

in this case is like the pervasive

sexual abuse in churches in um you know

in families and communities that is just

so you know not spoken about and we're

over here talking about drag queens and

trans people

you said that your mother was very um

proactive with going to therapy and

things like that which is an incredible

thing yeah so for the time so especially

because even now that's quite seen as

being quite a progressive thing to do

but but back then when you're 16 years

old for that to be one of the first sort

of suggestions to take you to therapy

seems to be honey I was in therapy when

I was five I remember like my parents

got divorced like I remember like being

in therapy when I was so little that

like I had to like look up at my mom

like this like holding her hand you know

what I'm saying like because then they

got divorced we went to like family

therapy so like therapy was always very

normalized for me and my mom

um it was just like one of the things I

just am so grateful to her for

that she like normalized therapy like

thank God I don't think I'd be alive

without if she hadn't done that what

about if I'd ask that 16 year old

version of you what are you gonna do

when you're older I always knew I wanted

to do hair right like but I think my

family was like you need to go to

college so I was like maybe I was like

I'll be a lawyer or something but then I

was like girl you can't be a lawyer

you're gonna I love doing hair I think I

knew I wanted to do hair yeah yeah I I

think about my teenage years and I think

I didn't know

the impact I use the word formative at

the start I didn't know how I'd been

formed until I was an adult and I saw

like patterns playing out

what were the prints sort of that left

on you from your earliest years that

stayed with you as an adult

I think my fur like I went I think one

of my big first phases of like

wanting to understand

more about like uh like my trauma or

like my story it was like Eckhart Tolle

and a new Earth and the Power of Now and

like

2008 or nine it was like when Oprah was

talking about him and then I was like

who's this that cartoli honey and then I

read The Power of Now And A New Earth

and I was like

hmm you go I don't have an ego what's he

talking about and I was like oh that's

like the story that we tell ourselves I

was like so like my stories that I'm

like this like gay kid from this little

town and I was like abused and like this

and that I love cheer and I loved it

like really I'm like The Observer of

that like I'm not really that I'm like

this like that was like when I started

to learn about like what meditation was

and what Stillness was and

um that really gave me a lot of healing

and kind of like Clarity and then I uh

that didn't last that long because I did

eventually get addicted to math like not

that long after that so but thank God I

had that introduction to that sort of

healing at that time because I was able

to come back to it so that and then I

think so then my stepdad got really sick

the one I was talking about earlier

um Steve he was diagnosed with cancer in

like 2009 and I was really far away I

was like living in La they were in

Illinois and I was in a really

um

you know

difficult working situation I was like

in my first serious relationship and

then all of those

um all that trauma manifesting itself

was came back in terms of like

um my sexual compulsivity so I'm like in

love for the first time and I just like

was having such a hard time like in my

first relationship like just cheating

Non-Stop and being like Oh like which I

talk a lot about in my first book

um and so that was when I was like okay

I really need help like I don't know

like so I'd had that versatile

introduction to Healing with like

Eckhart you know solo 2122 then Steve

gets sick he ultimately dies and then

it's after that that I'm like really

need help and that's like when I get

into therapy that's when I um start to

get into 12 step myself uh which I I

think being a non-binary queen anything

that's too much this or that it's like

so sobriety was like oh I just like I

want to be totally sober but I did get a

lot of healing there

um so I'm kind of a harm reduction Queen

but so all through my 20s I think and I

don't think that we ever get to a place

as much as I wish that we would where

you're just like ah dealt with my trauma

it's like in a box and I never have to

look at it again I never have to deal

with it again and I think it's

interesting the ways that your

circumstances change and then your

trauma or your you know that baggage or

your ego is like is Eckhart refers to it

will

like manifest itself in different ways

but I hope that we get or I hope I get

better at um

like not identifying with the trauma or

the ego like when it's like being a

nightmare even though that's like also a

constant struggle like ask my husband

like where the [ __ ] is my eyeliner you

went to um university right first

semester you dropped out like I did why

did you drop out I got really bad grades

and then I got addicted to drugs and

then I realized that I wanted to be a

hairdresser so what was I gonna waste

all that time and money for

was University or college I think they

call it in the US um the first time you

got addicted to drugs was that the first

time you started to seriously sort of

experiment with drugs

[Music]

um

does weed count

then no yes yes then it was like it's

not to we but that was the first time

that I ever did like

really intense drugs

you're away from this the small town the

issues of your your teen years at that

point so what was um what was that

context and environment like

well my mom was so right she was like

honey you're too young and I was like

get [ __ ] I'm leaving and honey I was

so too young like I just immediately

just had my face and a plate of coke

like the first time I saw cocaine I was

like

like the first time I was like saw like

I was like that's ecstasy give me six

um and the next thing I knew you know

because like you like my parents got me

like that like thing that you get at

University like the little like campus

like card for the food so they're like

your food's paid for your dorms paid for

like you really don't need very much

money honey like so like my mom gave me

like 300 a month because like everything

else was paid for right like what else

could you [ __ ] mean like I didn't

have to work like because like they did

everything right like so cool right like

so but I was like well how am I supposed

to get all messed up on drugs all the

time if I only have three hundred

dollars like that math isn't working

so right like it's like that's like two

days you know if you're really going out

with your friends

um so then I just was like then I

discovered like sex work and then I was

like oh next thing I knew I was like

pulling tricks to like

um get drugs so that I could do more

drugs and then after doing that for a

few months I was like

and I dropped out of college like

through that um I was like

um

because my mama cut me off by then I was

like Mommy um I'm so sorry I'm like

literally selling my body like I feel

scared like can you just put some money

in the checking account like I'll drive

the car home I'll be like I'll just come

I'll

I'll be back in three days can you just

I'm scared and she was like Jesus yes

this is my baby and so she did them poor

Mom right

um and so she did that cutely though

like right before that I found this

kitten in the hood of a car

um who was my first cat bugged the first

and honest to God I write about him too

like he really gave me like the will to

like not be a sex worker and because at

first it was like for funsies for to

just get drugs for partying right then

once I got cut off it was like no like I

don't want to go back home and like show

that I [ __ ] up so I just need to like

figure it out but like that was really

not where I wanted to be it wasn't like

I was like doing sex work from a place

of empowerment I was doing it from like

a place of like deep trauma like wanting

validation trying to support a drug

habit like it was not a good place for

like an 18 year old to be I was like

really it was really like I put myself

in so many really dangerous situations

someone pulled a gun on you right yeah

it was really like a really really

dangerous situations

um and so yeah that was like I mean I

look back at some of the things that

happened and I honestly can't believe

that I made it

because

it was really like so touch and go in a

lot of situations like one little thing

different and it could have like so many

situations but that's true of anyone but

it was really you know traumatizing but

so I find this little cat and I realize

when I find this little cat I was like I

want this I want to raise this little

cat he was like this like little black

cat in the hood of this car and um but

that really was like so super healing

for me and I think that started like I'm

such a little like animal parent I have

like five cats and three dogs now with

my husband and that I really think it

was just like such a huge like Turning

Point like just like falling like just

falling in love with like cats and dogs

they're just like so healing finding a

little cat in the boot of a car seems to

be trivial but it's not is it because

really what I heard there is in a moment

where you were in a bit of a desperate

situation that cat gave you a reason and

a purpose yeah no it's a meaning yes and

then it has continued to be like a huge

source of like joy and like grounding

like in my life that is like really

so not trivial like really really was a

huge Turning Point quick one before we

get back to this episode just give me 30

seconds of your time

two things I wanted to say the first

thing is a huge thank you for listening

and tuning into the show week after week

means the world to all of us and this

really is a dream that we absolutely

never had and couldn't have imagined

getting to this place

secondly it's a dream where we feel like

we're only just getting started and if

you enjoy what we do here please join

the 24 of people who watch this channel

regularly and have hit the Subscribe

button means more than I can say and if

you hit that subscribe button here's a

promise I'm going to make to you I'm

gonna do everything in my power to make

this show as good as I can now and into

the future we're going to deliver the

guests that you want me to speak to and

we're going to continue to keep doing

all of the things you love about the

show

thank you thank you so much back to the

episode so if you go to her school yeah

where did you go la the Aveda Institute

at Minneapolis or Minneapolis yeah and

how did that go for you cute I got

better there I got better there and then

I

um and then I moved back to Arizona

after I finished school so I only lived

there for about a year

um in my mind I felt like my first

experience in Arizona because that's

where I went to college was like this

failure and I really wanted to like go

back and do better and like not have it

be a failure

um and so I moved back and then that was

like a really cute time like I got to

like I like worked before myself the

first time I had like my own chair at a

salon

um and that made me kind of feel like

responsible for like the first time and

like I turned 21 in that time and then

after a few years of that I was like I

felt like I couldn't really cut myself

out of a paper bag like I felt like I

was in a good hairdresser all I knew how

to do was like chunky Kelly Clarkson

highlights like Circa light Breakaway

2004 you know what I'm saying so then I

wanted to move to L.A and work at a

really good salon and have a devil worse

product experience so I did so then I

moved to LA and then that's when I like

really like figured out how to do better

hair because I got a good job at

assisting at a salon that was really

good and how were you doing at that time

how are you doing on a personal level

yeah yeah like 22 years old yeah like I

think it was it was I think I was like

handling the move to LA pretty well up

until my step dad got sick and then

that's when it was like and then and

then like my little like healing era

came to like a screeching halt

also the relationship it was like

falling in love and my stepdad's

diagnosis like together like yeah much

all my trauma got triggered in

was bad

was was there something in in hindsight

that you think could have been done to

stop the stepdad's illness situation

resulting in destructive Behavior was

there was there was there therapy needed

or a conversation or was there it was a

lack of a support network or something

that could have kind of caught you in a

moment where you were you were falling

Without Really knowing you were falling

no well I don't think so because I I

realized that I was like doing things

sexually at that time that like I

regretted and like I didn't feel good

about myself afterwards and that's how I

was kind of like oh I think this is like

a problem and then

um and that also kind of started

happening like right after I met like my

like my first love and so and I told him

about it I was honest with him I got

help

um so he knew I got a therapist at that

time but like

ultimately like I wasn't ready to to

deal with it and so no I think

that was kind of an interesting lesson

of like you can have all the support in

the world but if you're not ready to

like sit with your stuff like nothing's

gonna move you but um

he it wasn't until he left me and uh

Steve died that I and I got HIV that I

was like

okay I really want to like not do this

anymore and that was when I ultimately

like was able to get better but I needed

to really I did it with a lot of support

but I needed to

hit rock bottom and then get the support

I hear that a lot you know I hear this I

remember approaching

um I've got a friend who was in the

public Spotlight and I was trying to

figure out how I could help them because

they clearly were aren't R in a

difficult situation so I approached

their management and said what can I do

to be a supportive in this situation

their management said to me we've been

here quite a few times and in fact until

the person wants to make a change

um they won't and often we have to let

the person hit rock bottom before change

will happen and I remember at first

hearing that being really uncomfortable

with that the idea that you have to kind

of let someone get there on their own

and even if the route to there is

downward first before it's up it feels

really hard to accept I guess especially

when you love the person

do you think that's true yeah

yeah

but my subject always said you know like

not every like well he this is like all

12-step like well-known 12-step

phraseology but like every bottom has a

basement so I can always get worse and

also like you don't have to ride the

elevator to the bottom so like not every

like like everyone's Rock bottoms like

look different

like it doesn't mean that you have to

like oh yeah it doesn't mean someone's

gonna like bite it necessarily I mean

they might but

um some people are just like oh I got

like a DUI and that was enough okay

other people are like

you know yeah everyone's bottom looks

different

some people don't survive their bottoms

yeah

sex addiction something we don't talk

about enough we we talk about drug

addiction alcohol addiction we even talk

about social media addiction and Screen

addiction but having a conversation

about sex addiction seems to be

um harder than all of the aforementioned

forms of addiction I remember having

Terry Crews on the podcast

um when we're in LA and him telling me

that he had a porn addiction

um and it was just during his life on

the surface someone might find it hard

to understand how something like that

can destroy one's life

um you you talk about having a sex

addiction and going on a sex addiction

course I believe when you were during

that time when you roughly around you

the LA time what impact was it having on

your life and your relationships what's

interesting because I think if if I'm

correct I think like sexual sex

addiction

like is not like a recognized addiction

and like the DSD whatever DSM yeah DSM

um but it's whereas like you know other

ones are

um

so the effects I was having on my life

was like obviously I got HIV and but

even before that like I was already like

going to meetings and I'd already been

to rehab

twice before I got HIV so

um like a sex rehab no they were like

well one was one had like a sex uh like

a sexual compulsivity like course like

within the program and then the other

one that I went to I found like an

outpatient that that did that work so I

could like I went there like you know

during the day from like this other

rehab I had to be like in a you know

resourceful Queen

um

But ultimately it's like a process

addiction you know whether it's like

gambling food like sex it's like a it

was like a process

addiction so the way that um it was

affecting my life was like just you know

doing things that I regretted

um I describe a lot of like

disassociative Behavior like this like

inability to like just get off like

couldn't get off the phone couldn't stop

cruising like I just felt like I wasn't

like in control of like I wasn't in

control like so if you were to say like

and you know in part speaker like ifs it

would like like that firefighter was

like so Blended in my driver's seat like

I couldn't I couldn't get centered self

like into the goddamn car when you say

cruising you mean you were like

searching yeah it's like a queer a queer

term for like what like gays do when

you're like yeah whether it's like

you're cruising on grinder or you're

like in a bath house or like whatever

you're doing

can you tell me about that Journey so at

some point you realize that you've got

sexual compulsivity

at some point it becomes a problem in

your life and you lose your partner in

this case and there's you know you

realize that you've lost control of that

and then at some point you get to a

stage of healing where you become aware

and you understand where the origin of

this sexual compulsivity

that third Point understanding the

origins of that sexual compulsivity

when was that and how did that happen

well you know it's interesting I think

it's it's

um that reminds me of this thing that

this one guy in rehab said he said like

not knowing

why he was an alcoholic is not what made

him crazy it was needing to know why he

was an alcoholic is what made him crazy

um so I think it's a lot and and that

was actually a huge disappointment for

me and I think we put way too much

emphasis on like trying to like

understand your origin story because

like once I understood my origin story

and it was like really clear as day and

like I'd done all my work and I'd done

like all this processing and like all

the memories came back and like I

already had all the memories but then

like there was just certain things that

I was able to connect and like really

understand very clearly

um I was still left with the scarring

and I was still left with the patterns

like I still once I knew it wasn't like

I was like ah well now I don't want to

[ __ ] 20 strangers anymore

like it wasn't like that like all of

that pattern and all of that like you

know

feels insecure wants validation won't

stop till they get the validation then

they feel insecure again for doing the

thing and then it like it's just a cycle

that like repeats itself all the time

and we talk about that in sexual

compulsivity it's like the trigger and

then like the trigger to do the thing

and then you start cruising for the

thing and then you do the thing and then

the shame from the thing just makes you

go right back into it so it's just this

like cycle so

um

really it was just like understanding

through so much like repetition of

hurting myself like there's like oh I

don't really want to do this I don't

feel better after I do this like I think

I'm going to but then I don't and

um so it was really just like through

continually like really hurting myself

and then going back to therapy like

falling off the horse getting back on

like and also like meth use has a huge

part to do with this for a lot of queer

people at least and I mean there are

straight people as well but I think it's

probably like lesser numbers

um because of like you know the whole

like meth and sex like scene which is

you know quite prevalent in queer

communities

um so it was not quite prevalent but

it's like relevant it happens and so I

think once the further away that I was

able to get from meth the easier it was

for me to heal from because also it's

like and I talk a lot about this in my

new show fun and [ __ ] it's like

um sexuality isn't bad like sexuality is

good

um expressing her sexuality is good it's

lack of uh it's lack of consent it's

abuse population it's doing things that

you regret those are the things that are

not good

um but you know decoupling that like

kind of understanding that and

understanding like are you doing this

because you have a trauma response and

so you're doing this or you're doing

this because you really really want to

do it so there's like a whole you know

conversation about like sex positivity

to be had here too

um and you know a lot of people are

really opposed to the idea of sexual

compulsivity or sex addiction because

they're like that's really not sex

positive and maybe it's you know XYZ or

whatever but for me I think it's way

more important to recognize that like in

my case it was I didn't feel good and

now I feel better and I know a lot of

people like myself who were able to like

you know come more into a space of

healing and more into a space of like

balance with their like sexual self

so

um but again just like anything that's

never like all the way just like done

and dusted like you're always in

conversation with yourself and with your

trauma and and your behavior and like

how you want to regulate that or Express

that it would also be your Mist to say

like I mean I I already had a lot of

healing prior to meeting my husband and

I think that's part of like why I even

like met him you know universally

speaking anyway because I had done that

work but having a husband who I can be

open with and honest with and who you

know doesn't judge me for the things

that I've been through and he can like

create a safe space for you know to hold

my stuff with me is really helpful as

well

I was just chatting to some friends this

um this weekend Friday about how

we I was trying to figure out because

one of my the the people that I was with

the three of them they're all single

um they're seeking not to be single and

I was I was saying to them that I found

the right person in my life when I was

not necessarily the the completed

version of myself but I had to do a lot

of work to even find that jigsaw piece

that matched

me as a different shaped jigsaw piece

like I had to do a lot of work and I

wasn't all the way there because I do

feel like you go on a journey with that

partner but you have to kind of be

aiming in the same direction at least so

I guess my question to you this is a bit

of a tangent is do you what do you think

about that about like the the season

where we find the the right person how

much work do we have to do on ourselves

to be ready when we meet

that person

um there's this other type of therapy

that I love called pact therapy which

stands for like the psychobiological

approach to couples therapy which was um

invented by Dr stantatken so he created

pact therapy and so

he talks about an insecure functioning

relationship and a secure functioning

relationship so earlier when I was

thinking about my mom and my stepdad I

was like that secure functioning

relationship my first relationship was

an insecure functioning relationship

with my first partner that in

conjunction with like my stepdad's

illness and then just being like 24 and

25

out of my window of Tolerance could not

handle firefighters were activated all

[ __ ] up you know like my life kind of

so that's that so but Stan says that you

can an insecure functioning relationship

can turn into a function a secure

functioning one if both parties want it

if they're both willing to like work on

themselves work on the relationship and

also Stan says that like a lot of

um Brokenness or like trauma in oneself

can actually really be healed through

that sort of like couple's therapy so I

don't know if you really have to be like

a more that whole thing of like two

fully formed circles need to make the

chain because like if you're a

fragmented how are you like you're gonna

make a [ __ ] up so I think I think we

actually it pisses me off when people

get too much into that like relational

expert stuff because like just like we

all have our own experience like every

relationship has its own experience so

we can like pull from some like

you know um what's that called like uh

like we can pull from some like data of

or like but like not real day like just

like oratory like data of just people

talking about it and telling us things

and well my friend this and my friend

that but like ultimately I think that

like there is there's like a different

path for everyone to find like their

relationship and whether or not it

starts and I also think even in my

marriage like I feel like we've had

moments that we got married after like

six months like in the middle of a

[ __ ] pandemic like it was you know it

was wow it was a weird time you know

because we just started saying I love

you and then borders shut down and then

I was like if we want to keep I don't

know if I can just not get [ __ ] by you

for like years in like a respiratory

pandemic like I like you know like I

think I need you to like get over here

but he was British and I'm American and

so we just were like let's see what

happens and then once you get to the end

of that FDA Visa or whatever it's like

you either gotta get married and so it

wasn't the way I think either of us ever

imagined that like we would get married

but like we are so happy I'm so glad

that we did we've learned so much about

each other we're like it's like

I'm so happy that we did but like when I

was little I don't know if I was like

imagining they would like I'd get

married like a backyard like with only a

judge because like you know no one's

family could be there because there's no

you know what I mean so Something

Beautiful about that though it was

amazing and I'm like so happy that we

did it but I just think everyone can

have like a different like approach and

just because you've had this or that or

that like everyone just has like their

own way and I think that's like cool

movies [ __ ] us up there didn't they yeah

they really do you know it's expectation

expectation expectation and then that

kills happiness and makes us confuse

real with you know I don't know some of

the [ __ ] and

hmm that's a really great answer

it's a really great answer we do we try

and work out the perfect formula for

things too much in life but there is

really no Perfection when you're dealing

with such complex organisms yes forming

complex relationships so

you moved to is it St Louis yeah St

Louis yeah St Louis when you were 25

what was that about why did you leave it

alone

um wanted to be closer than my stepdad

and so uh yeah that was my and also

because I was like couldn't stop

I was like La is why I can't stop doing

drugs and having sex with strangers even

though I love this person so much like

let's and then unfortunately as my

stepdad always said no matter where you

go there you are so obviously leaving La

didn't fix anything and then he actually

passed away like three weeks after we

left LA and got to St Louis so it was

like bad on bad and then I really really

freaked out like then I was that was

like the most self-destructive era

take me into that moment

well

one two fine

it's in the book

yeah I read I read um I read I read that

that was a very difficult time for you

um

because I also think that like we don't

need to like I don't need to like War

Story which is like what we call it in

rehab like when you talk about like the

worst thing I mean there's a way that

you can do it like with respect and like

not speak you know it's like I was doing

this much things in these drugs and but

like

I also you know in protecting my energy

like I've been on an international tour

for 10 days like I've given myself so

much into like my new show like which

has been I'm so proud of it's like my

third like hour of Comedy but like

I'm not all the way in a space where

like I want to speak to that part in my

life right now so I'm just going to set

a really loving boundary so I don't

really want to chat about it that's fine

I respect that thanks honey what do him

if I if I when's the next significant

moment in your life then so you that

Stephen is his name Steve Steve passes

away

um causes a series of issues in your

life

um you move back to LA did you ever

think TV and media would be part of your

not in this way no and how exciting that

that like it was such like a curveball

but no I mean I just was like

accidentally telling a really talented

producer

um an actress and comedian friend of

mine uh who is a client about Game of

Thrones and I was like have you seen

this show it's like this and it's that

like I did a little impromptu recap of

it as I was like doing her hair and when

I was done she was like that's a series

and so then we did Gay of Thrones that

was like December of 12 and then the

next year we started doing gay of

Thrones that like

March and then

um The Game of Thrones came out and it's

going to be like one episode but then we

got Alfie Allen for our second episode

and then Funny or Die was like keep

doing this and so then I went really

from being like a hairdresser to

learning on the job how to be a

performer how to like improv how to

deliver scripted lines how to write how

to produce I mean I was writing and

producing and didn't even know that

that's what I was doing because I was

doing it on the job

so like I like I just learned like this

whole new skill set kind of like over

the years like for like three months a

year like I would do Gay of Thrones and

I just like kind of slow and then after

doing Game of Thrones for two years I

was like oh this is so fun I want to do

this more and so then that's when I

started my podcast getting curious

and then I did I got to like learn how

to produce that and learn how to

research for that and book clients for

that I mean I think I did like the first

50 episodes with like myself and a sound

engineer but I was like booking at

myself like it was like it was like I

was like just learning like all these

things that I had never really done and

so then I really started to get like

stung by that bee and I was like I want

to do this more and I always have loved

doing hair but I was like I want to be I

want to write more I want to be more on

camera I want to like I want to do this

more often and then in 2018 the queer

eye or it was actually not 18 it was

2017. I read that the reboot was

happening and they were casting for it

and I was like

like this is what I've been waiting for

like this is the vehicle like I always

loved queer eye growing up my

grandparents and I would watch it

together it was like

I'm ready and then I I went to that

audition and that audition was

literally

like the scene in Mean Girls when

they're all at the fountain and

everyone's like tackling each other

um it was like that except for

everyone's like being really sweet and I

remember like this one creator of the

show like his eyes like I said this like

funny thing and I was like okay

you need to be like you are on Gay of

Thrones all times like you need to be on

15 and you just say [ __ ] one-liners

all the time like just be the funniest

you have ever even thought about being

for the next 48 hours capiche like

that's what I was saying like in my head

and I did like I was just like and I

just was like so on

why you

you know I think so I I hope not me

darling well I have my suspicions but I

for you to you know it wasn't just an

audition even the stuff you were doing

with um was it funny or die wasn't it

the the channel back then yeah Game of

Thrones yeah yeah

um

do you ever pause and think

like

what is it about you that made you

really successful in Game of Thrones and

then really successful in queer eye what

is it about you in your own assessment

I don't know really I really don't

because I think it could have been a

million people I think that I have I

think I'm resilient

I think that I have been told no so many

times and didn't turn around and go back

I like found a different way I think

that's really important we've got

resilience but you know just from

meeting you now you have a remarkable

talent for wit and humor you're very

funny and you have a very Unforgettable

personality you're like you're

unbelievable energy

and no I'm no but I'm I'm you know no

thank you no but you know something I

can't do what you do and I've only met

you for like I don't know an hour or so

and I can't be I'm not as

hilarious and witty and I don't know I

don't I can't almost describe it that

some people just have like a really

engaging personality and you have that

you have that like energy that's a huge

part of it surely your success

um because you're in you know especially

on TV and now I don't know I really

don't like I see people like I have I

know people that make me laugh that I

think are way funnier than me

like way funnier way more witty way more

like Unforgettable personalities but

like I think that a lot of the people

who I'm thinking of like had some

message from the like in their lives

where like they were like either or like

their moment hasn't happened yet it's

one of the two yeah yeah

um but I think for a lot of people like

maybe like backed away or like we're

like I don't want to like because like I

because actually in retrospect like I

really it's not just I think that like

oh I didn't chase my dream I actually

really did Chase this like with gay of

Thrones you know like I like I wanted

more than gay after I mean Game of

Thrones started in 2013 and I didn't

book queer eye until 2017 and then there

was no knowing if queer I was going to

work or not until like 2018. so I mean

2013 was 10 years ago like I've been at

this for a long time

um and so and there was like so many

setbacks like so many

setbacks through that time your

authentic self I've sat here with a lot

of people in TV and TV and media can

often make us it can incentivize us to

become a cat like not character but like

and I sat here with Jake Humphries in a

wonderful lady called Fern cotton who a

TV

yeah so Fern told me on on the podcast

that she spent 10 years as a TV

presenter and she I think realized at

some point that she was living outside

of herself and at least

um she wasn't able to reflect the full

array of her who she was

um and that resulted in panic attacks

and other sort of psychological issues

she had

um

and it's and it's made and now she's so

successful doing happy place where she's

able to be herself so this conversation

around

or like being your authentic self being

the the pathway to your greatest success

what is your take on that this idea of

like showing up as yourself regardless

of The Temptations or

disincentivizations or incentivizations

to be something else how important to

you has been being yourself regardless

even like because I I totally understand

but even that feels like um

I don't think like what is like all the

way authentic well it's like all the way

yourself because I always get leery when

we're like because like if if the

alternative is like I don't think that

there's a such thing as a vegan like all

the way yourself or not yourself at all

so I think it's like a spectrum like

everything is kind of really much more

like a spectrum than it is like a binary

like choice so and like when you were

saying with Fern it was like you know

she's like a TV presenter but she

couldn't show like the fullness of

herself so like that's why I wrote over

the top because I and I and I think in

love that's where I say like or no it's

an over the top I say like I love an

episode of queer eye just as much as the

next person but if I can't tell you my

full truth and tell you who I really am

then like I can't help other people like

me and I actually can't even be myself

and then the whole Crux of over the top

is and what I ask in the book is like

would you still want to have a selfie

with me like would you still love me if

you knew my whole story and so that's

you know and then I say and love that

story that the resounding answer that I

got from so many people was yes you know

I do still love you

um and like in most cases it was like

even more so but were there Parts

um I think we always have parts of

ourselves that are informed by external

factors like if I didn't get feedback

from people when I go like when I say

something funny that that if I didn't

get positive feedback from that would I

still be making all those jokes

like so does that mean I'm not really

you know what I'm saying like every

every way that we show up in the world

is because of like our socialization our

relationships like our communities like

I don't think that that makes you like

it's really like your relationship with

your self and I don't think that like

I don't think there's like authentic and

like inauthentic

there's like there's like sometimes I'm

more like this because of this this

thing and sometimes I'm more like that

because of that thing you know what I

mean perfect makes perfect sense

that's so interesting but it is the

truth and you know I think is actually

more authentic is like being able to

like speak to what you're actually

feeling like in the moment like I feel

like earlier when we were saying like

um like I literally caught myself I was

like oh like you know brene Brown says

can you talk about your trauma without

becoming your trauma and I was like

literally laying that up because I was

feeling vulnerable with you I was and I

didn't like it so I was like oh yeah I

totally can like I can totally speak and

it like doesn't really hurt me because I

don't really want to talk about it that

much because it's like but then it's

like actually that was really a

protector part that was coming up

because I didn't want to talk about it

and I felt like I was gonna become my

trauma like because I am a little tired

and I am a little run down like after

the last two weeks like I've worked my

[ __ ] ass off for these last two weeks

and another thing that's interesting

that I don't really want to talk about

but when I was originally supposed to

when we were going to do this the last

time I had like a really close family

member die super young super out of the

blue like which we don't but she got

strep throat and died in four days my

sister-in-law and so that's why I wasn't

in the United Kingdom which I also

didn't ever talk about publicly because

it's like not anything I wanted to talk

about but like it's I think really what

being authentic is is Having the courage

and like the vulnerability to say like

this is what I'm going through like this

is like actually the thought that I

actually had in my head like when I was

about to try to lie to you like this is

really what it was and like for me it's

like sometimes it's like if you come up

to me for a selfie and like especially

on that day like with Leslie my

sister-in-law like I wasn't taking

selfies it wasn't in a good mood when my

cat fell out of a window and you asked

me for a selfie I wasn't gonna take a

selfie

and sometimes I'll be like yeah like

let's just like let's do it but then

sometimes but you know normally if my

life is okay and I'm not going through

like some horrific trauma that's not the

energy I give you when you want a selfie

I'm like yeah girl like it's like let's

do it but sometimes I'm not always like

that and so I think that's really what's

authentic is saying that like just

because you always see me like or the

two episodes of queer eye that you saw

being five years ago and you remember me

saying some funny quippy things

what's really authentic is me being able

to be like that's not always who I am

and there's actually like a fuller

picture there it's like that is like

what authentic is but there is there

have been moments like where I was

probably like totally someone asking for

yourself and it's like sure girl let's

do it on the inside I was like I want to

die

like I don't feel good I feel awful

and then the expectation of someone that

I need to perform that for them

constantly no matter what's going on

that [ __ ] wears me out which is why I

can't do it all the time

so

like that's

yeah I like

I just think authenticity is like this

like buzzword that we use when like

really what it is is like are you

willing to like

be open about like what you need

like what your experience is like what

someone's like expecting of you

regardless of how the external world

might respond

positively or negatively to that yeah

gosh then if that is the definition of

authenticity it's even harder than I

thought because authenticity is it's

often portrayed as just like like being

being your personality what's in all

being that you know if my personality is

slightly weird in certain ways being

that regardless of company but in the

definition you've described there it's

like boundaries and like

staying true to myself regardless of the

consequences of that externally which is

as you say I have tied days I have days

when I'm in a bad mood when I'm when I

need some space where I don't want

anyone to talk to me and on those days

expressing that is authenticity yeah

yeah I love that my girlfriend came

upstairs yesterday when I was having a

shower and she said to me that she tried

the heel protein shake which lives on my

fridge over there and she said it's

amazing low calories you get your 20 odd

grams of protein you get your 26

vitamins and minerals and it's

nutritionally complete in the protein

space there's lots of things but it's

hard to find something that is nice

especially when consumed just with water

and that is nutritionally complete if

you haven't tried the heel protein

product do give it a try The Salted

Caramel one if you put some ice cubes in

it and you put it in a blender and you

try it is as good as pretty much any

milkshake on the market just mixed with

water it's been a game changer for me

because I'm trying to drop my calorie

intake and I'm trying to be a little bit

more healthy with my diet so this is

where he all fits in my life thank you

heal for making a product that I

actually like The Salted Caramel is my

favorite I've got the banana one here

which is the one my girlfriend likes but

for me salted caramel is the one

how are you feeling now yeah you know

your schedule's been crazy you've been

doing a lot of work lately yeah how are

you feeling

um

look I feel

I feel really

grateful

and at the same time I feel really

frustrated

um and that's the best way I can explain

it right now I'm going through a lot of

grief

I just lost my sister-in-law two months

ago

watching my nephews like grow up

you know dealing with unimaginable grief

I'm watching my brother deal with

unimaginable loss

um

so talking about you know how I'm

feeling and

it's just this has been a really hard

time and I think balancing

your private life with being a public

figure who is constantly expected to be

a ray of [ __ ] Sunshine no matter what

is going on

it can be challenging

um

so

I love my hairline I love what I get to

do with gbn hair I love that I get to be

a comedian I love that when

I want to like do a show I can like

there's people that want to come see my

comedy like comedy has been so healing

for me and it's like one place in my

career where I get to be irreverent and

I get to like I feel like I'm the most

myself on stage I think that's like the

most accurate and unfiltered like

version of who I am is like on stage but

I think like any artist when you like

like I just been burning the candle at

both ends for the last like 10 days so

like in this very moment in my life like

actually this particular moment I feel

frustrated and grieving

um

when I zoom out a little bit and give

voice to that frustration and now I can

like sit with this or like longer than

actually tell like give a larger answer

um I feel

like

actually it's the same I feel grateful

and frustrated like Dylan Mulvaney is a

really good friend of mine I love her so

much I like watch what's happened to her

in the press for the last few months I'm

like so frustrated I just see so much

like

just absolute garbage like just

transphobic garbage all over the place I

see really not very many folks

really interrogating their beliefs

around their transphobia interrogating

like where are they getting their

information

um and then even understanding like

our transphobia

that we experience in our culture is

like really truly rooted and like white

supremacy and colonialism and this

conversation goes back like 400 years

and so that's like a really big systemic

thing but then living in a state where

like

this woman literally just lost her life

because this guy thought that she looked

queer like there are kids that like

like their families are like moving like

they can't like they can't they like

their kids are like if they have already

started their transition and they're

like if they're you know 16 year old and

they're a sophomore in high school and

they've been living

and their gender identity since they

were like a five-year-old kid they've

been on puberty blockers uh when they

were you know little they had a concert

of doctors and their family who cares

about them and loves them deeply help

them transition

um because if they didn't transition in

some cases not all cases but some cases

like these kids will have such intense

gender dysphoria that they can commit

suicide they can do things that can

truly never be reversed and so we have

these people making these hyperbolic

claims about protecting children

um and about you know protecting

children from making irreversible

decisions uh bathrooms fairness and

sports all these things when like trans

people make up like at most like two

percent of the population

like gun violence is out of control

education's out of control like people

don't have access to the food to the

healthcare I mean my book's been banned

like my book like peanut goes for the

gold like they were talking about

banning I mean like this is really

serious and so like it's just

frustrating I'm grateful but I think to

like have had a lot of my dreams come

true like I said in earlier but then in

this like environment of like where you

feel like oh my God like if one person

decides that like something that I said

or did they can like I mean you

literally because so much of the

transphobia that we read about like when

you read like if you read an article

about what happened to Dylan

um like the way that people just speak

about trans people and non-binary people

like the quotations the the inferred

like threats or like not believing that

we are who we say that we are

and but then like how that actually has

like been taken farther now to like

revoking Health Care like you know

limiting Access to Health Care calling

Healthcare child abuse

um

it's just really frustrating because

it's such like a gigantic conversation

that there's a lot of nuance and a lot

of people have been exposed to

misinformation and disinformation don't

really understand and so then and then

I'm in this position of like

like how do I balance like what I'm

seeing happening to friends and people

who I love and then like running a

business and trying to grow my business

and then with this backdrop of all this

[ __ ] up [ __ ]

it's hard

so I'm like you know I'm grateful like

and I'm also like a hairdresser who

loves doing hair like I love good

products like I'm someone who in my 20s

like I would overdraft my checking

account to get the shampoo and

conditioner that I wanted like I because

I know when your hair feels good like

when you feel good about how you look

like you just feel so much better and I

would literally choose like products

over food all the time in my 20s and so

I wanted to make products that are clean

and But ultimately like more than clean

like I really wanted to make products

that work really really well that don't

cost like a hundred dollars for a

shampoo and conditioner like I just

wanted to make really highly functional

products that work on people's hair the

hairdressers love and that people love

that they can actually afford and I'm so

passionate about it but like there's a

lot of things that I can't even think

about the cool things that I've done

because I'm like

literally like if you read comments

right now but like who cares about a

comment I don't really care about

comments I care about like what's

happened in my state like in Texas like

I mean they're like like this like drag

band that was just passed like I'm

performing in Texas in Austin in

December like I have to make sure like

there used to be able to be like now in

this show fun and [ __ ] I wouldn't want

kids there anyway it was like an adult

show but like it is like

there is like I'm like there was there

was a lot they were talking about that

would like just force people to wear

clothes of their like biological sex in

public

that I didn't pass or there's a

conversation around it the way that

we're like trending and heading and any

time where you like talk about like

limiting a whole group's ability to like

you know access like information

Healthcare education or just like their

exposure to public under the guise of

like protecting kids like historically

we've really seen that a lot of times

like

against so many marginalized groups

so I think any time when that starts

happening we all really need to be super

leery especially because like sex abuse

is such a huge issue and it is happening

in families and in churches and it's

happening in schools um I'll tell you

where it's not happening is it drag

queen brunch

okay it's not happening there

um it's not happening in healthcare

clinics well maybe it could be in some

places like I don't you know

but really it's like it is not happening

in gender affirming care anything

happening at drag queen branches um it's

he's a dentist or you know some doctor

might put you under some those things

happen with these crazy [ __ ] CIS head

doctors who you find out where like you

know impregnating their [ __ ] patients

or like that is what it's like maybe

that but like in gender affirming care

and in drag queen brunch it's not child

abuse why why where's this because I've

noticed this what feels like quite a

tectonic shift

um in

transphobic narratives over the last

couple of months in particular

it seems to have been this this ground

and I can't figure out where it's come

from I was saying to this too earlier on

but if I don't know where it's come from

I don't really know part of it is

conservative thing tanks so when Biden

won in 2020

um and we saw this in Virginia because

the Virginia House of delegates uh it by

one vote State Republican and then

because they have off uh cycle elections

and Virginia has told 2019 it flips back

to or flips to Democrats and then 2021

it reverses again and goes back to

Republicans and the issue that they

really use there was bathrooms and trans

rights because the democratic-controlled

uh legislator in that 19 session had

done some things on trans rights and

they threw these conservative think

tanks because a lot of times Virginia

because it has off years like they use

that as like a Bellwether to like test

things like just on both sides like

Democrats and Republicans but they were

throwing everything at the wall they're

abortion hell no they don't want that

that's not going well for them right now

because most people support the right to

abortion so for Republicans like that's

not a winning thing right now but the

thing that in gay marriage that's not

really a huge thing anymore because most

people support gay marriage but when

they threw trans rights

when they through biological males

competing against women in sports

robbing you know your sweet pretty

little white girl of her you know

hard-earned sporting opportunities

that stuck

that stuck hardcore that got people

[ __ ] circling the wagons honey so

um

that is when we really started to see

and when you were like oh just in these

last three months it has not just been

these last three months that's because

of the way that elections work and

because we just had a midterm election

in November of last year and then they

don't take office until January and then

it takes months and months for things to

get through committee and stuff

all of this [ __ ] has been in the works

we've all been talking about this if you

look at my getting curious that was

canceled on Netflix last [ __ ] year

there's a whole episode about this and

it's it talks about the anti-drag bills

up until 2022. as compared to that time

we have four times more at that time and

the graph was like this

so it isn't new and it just takes a

minute but um I think another thing that

we're seeing is that like you know how

you were saying like oh the lion or like

the the thing of like the Tigers coming

for you run away from the tiger so

that's like negativity bias versus like

positive positive bias that's why a

story of like someone getting murdered

or someone getting abused is gonna go

way farther than like you know the good

news network story you know it's your

negativity bias so that's the other

thing is that like because we have so

much fear-mongering around trans issues

right now

um that's also part of like why like it

feels like it's going so much farther

because people really are actually

thinking that people really think that

there's like little kids going and

getting hysterectomies like going to

school as a boy and coming home as a

girl having like full you know what I

mean like people actually have been

convinced that like there's little teeny

children who are making you know

permanent medical decisions with no

parental supervision with no medical

supervision people really think that's

true another huge issue that we're up

against right now is that there's so

much distance from information around

like the fact that actually like

biological sex is in and of itself a

spectrum like that's not even a binary

like do you know what intersex is

do I yeah no I don't so that's the i in

lgbtqia there is like six intersex uh

there's six my friend Alicia Roth Weigel

is an amazing intersex activist her book

is coming out it's called inverse

cowgirl she also just helped produce a

movie that just came out that is called

everybody but statistics show that up to

two percent I've interviewed her I'm

getting curious if you ever want to

listen to it but up to two percent of

our population is entering you should

actually have her on this podcast

because she's [ __ ] major but two

percent of our population is intersex

we don't test everyone that's born for

what our chromosomes are so there's xx

and then there's X Y but then there's

also a variation that's x x y there's

also some there's like these multiple

variations there's six main ones that

qualify someone as intersex

um and so what happens is and is it like

if a kid is born intersex doctors they

don't even Mark that down like they will

take the kid they talk to the parent and

they say like whatever the genitalia

most appears as they're in literally one

thing that I have learned and have been

told is like doctors will literally say

it's easier to dig a hole than build a

pole so most people that are born

intersex they will make into someone

that looks biologically female but these

people will have to take hormones for

their entire life they have to have

gender they have to have genital surgery

like on their genitals when they are

babies I'm talking like operate on their

genitals when they're babies and then

when they're kids and then they have to

wear expanders when they're kids like

their parents have to teach them how to

wear expanders so they will have a

vagina that looks like other people's

vaginas so kids currently up to two

percent of people now when you say that

to transphobes they'll say like oh well

actually that study was wrong and it's

only 0.02 people it's not two percent

it's it's 0.2 and either way

two percent of the population of seven

billion that's hundreds of millions of

people who have intersex characteristics

of 0.2 that's still millions and

millions of people with intersex

characteristics and there's a lot of

people who look like they're men who are

actually walking around here with xxy

chromosomes a lot of men who can't have

kids it's actually because they have

they are intersex so intersex people

exist all over the place like intersex

is a real thing the idea of biological

sex being a binary isn't even true and

if you talk to biologists they will tell

you exactly what I'm telling you and

it's interesting in a lot of these

anti-trans bills for kids intersex kids

are specifically carved out

so in these bills it says you can't

commit no General mutilation no hormones

your kid must be the the biological sex

that they were born unless

they are intersex

and then we must do genital surgery we

must prescribe hormones we must enforce

the binary

so that's and if you think I'm being