your mission at the moment to myth bust

and call out disinformation as it

relates to Health Care let's get into

that okay Dr Mike verski he's the

actively practicing medicine doctor with

over 25 million followers who's created

one of the largest health education

Platforms in the world Dr Mike what's

the key to finding a diet that's going

to stick there's two real things that

you need to think about one calories in

and calories out is true second and this

is important you need to have what about

the prevailing narrative that if you

want to lose weight you got to get on a

running machine nutrition that's where

the majority of the change will come

from what's the Medical Advantage if I

go to the gym every day literally

everything else is vaping dangerous yes

and no one knows this by the way this is

why I do what I do but the more

dangerous part of it is what's your p on

supplements they will make you skip on

doing things that are healthy for you

and supplements have side effects you

have too many of them we notice that

they but no one talks about that because

you can't really sell that and then

considering you care so much about your

health why would a doctor to choose

boxing cuz I unfortunately lost my mom

to cancer to ask the doctors to stop

doing chest compressions on your mom

that is not something that I wish on

anyone and I got into a very unhealthy

mental state so boxing chose me instead

of me choosing boxing in the

circumstances that you lost your mother

where she was giv the all clear yeah did

that experience change your perspective

of the medical industry in any way

we've just hit 6 million subscribers on

the D Co um so me and my team would like

to do something we've never done before

as little thank you and we're calling it

The dire coo subscriber raffle and here

is how it works every episode this month

we're going to pick three current

subscribers at random and we'll send one

of you a 1,000 voucher one of you

tickets to come and watch the D behind

the scenes live with our team and one of

you will have a 10-minute phone call

with me to discuss whatever you want to

talk about if you're a subscriber you're

in the raffle thank you from the bottom

of my heart for allowing me to do

something that me and my team love doing

so much it is the greatest honor of my

lifetime and I hope it I hope it

continues uh off into the Future Let's

get to the

[Music]

episode Dr

Mike considering everything you do from

your podcast to all of the content you

produce across your channels to the

stuff you do in TV everything social

media all of it

how do you summarize the overarching

mission that you're on at this in this

phase of your

life the mission is largely to make sure

that in the sea of

misinformation my

patients my viewers are getting the most

honest transparent and engaging

information so that hopefully they can

make the best decisions Healthcare wise

for themselves and their family

members why do you care

when I was a medical student I would go

into rooms with patients and they would

be being seen by some of the top doctors

in the world I mean experts upon experts

credentials published work and the

second the doctor would walk out after

presenting all this accurate

evidence-based information the patient

would look at me as the med student and

say what did he say or what did she say

and I realized that the message wasn't

hitting home and I realized we need to

do a better job as communicators in the

healthcare space and then I said well TV

must be the answer media training must

be the answer and then as I became a

practicing physician in my residency

program I started seeing people being

influenced by those TV physicians in the

wrong ways they would be promising

Miracle solutions to any problem they

would be having snake oil being sold to

them they would think that they can skip

out on taking their medications or going

for treatments or making Lifestyle

Changes because of a solution proposed

to them for three easy payments of

1999 and I said oh man not only are we

not great communicators but we're being

edged by people who are trying to make a

profit in that in this Health Care space

and I viewed it as a mega problem I

remember in 2017 I wrote a blog post for

the American Academy of family

physicians and I said the lack of

evidence-based Physicians Online is is

going to create a world of a difference

in our patients lives it's going to

allow misinformation to come in

especially in this section I call the

gray Zone where modern science doesn't

yet have an answer to certain medical

problems to certain medical conditions

and they're going to come in and promise

you Solutions and they're going to be

quite successful at it what happened

three years later covid-19 pandemic

misinformation pandemic people confused

not knowing who to seek out for

information and for some very strange

reason a doctor with only 5 years of

experience uh after a residency was the

number one channel on YouTube being

watched and giving the answers when

people were not watching the CDC they

weren't listening to True experts in

said they were falling for

misinformation online and I had to be

there to set the record straight I

couldn't believe that that

happened for people that might not know

who you're referring to when you cite

that doct doctor that is you

you reach a lot of people every month

you have 12 million subscribers on

YouTube now you have other channels with

you millions of people following you

across the board and that's happened in

quite a short space of

time what is it about you that you think

has been so resonant with so many people

as it relates to sort of medical

information and spotting

disinformation I think it's not one

thing much like in healthcare this would

be a multifactorial situation I think

when I first started the reason why I

got popularity was because I was an

early adopter of Instagram and I would

share my medical Journey uh of being a

med student mostly because I wanted to

show people that you can have a life a

social life a family life a sports life

and still go through medical school

because I felt like there existed this

stigma you have to give up everything to

study medicine and while I was doing

that I got some followers on Instagram

and at that point having 10,000

followers was a huge win because it was

so new and being a broke medical student

to go to a club and say oh my God I have

10,000 followers let me in without

paying the admission that was a

win then fast forward just a couple

years later I'm in my residency program

BuzzFeed writes an article and they

didn't write an article about me being

the youngest doctor in my hospital they

didn't write an article about the fact

that I did some medical research they

didn't write about the fact that I was

passionate about putting out accurate

info they the title of the article was

you got check out this sexy doctor and

his awesome dog and I'm like oh that's

silly no one's going to read this I

thought it was cute I'd send it to some

friends and then boom that was the

moment everyone was going viral and it

seemed like every Outlet in the world

was reaching out and when I say in the

world I'm not exaggerating like Outlets

from the UK

from Budapest from Asia from the every

possible Outlet here in the United

States was calling for an interview and

I very vividly remember all the talk

show hosts were reaching out and I had

no idea about this world that there

existed so much competition where I

remember the Ellen degenerous show folks

reached out and they said if you do our

show you can't do the Steve Harvey Show

and Steve Harvey reached out and said

you know if you do our show you can't do

their show I talked to some friends I'm

like all right I'll do the own

degenerous show I think that'll be a

cool opportunity and they do the

pre-interviews I meet with the producers

I tell them about what I'm passionate

about and the day before filming they

call and they say hey we have some news

Hillary Clinton is announcing her bid

for the presidency of the United States

and she's doing our daytime talk show as

the first talk show and like the other

guests were like pink and Jimmy Kimmel

so you're the one getting kicked off and

I said no biggie I'll go on Steve Harvey

so I called Steve Harvey's people back

and they said oh no that was two weeks

ago we're not interested anymore and it

was such a wakeup call where the 15

minutes of fame statement was true you

were hot for a second people were

interested about this unique story and

then they move on but I said no way I I

still have to push this because I viewed

it as an opportunity to get people to

care about the

information but drawing their attention

to something else first if you look at

who's successful in media 20 years ago

uh in the healthcare space it would be

unfortunately people who corrupted the

health information for the

viewership and it feels like you often

times have to corrupt something to get

views and I felt that if I could corrupt

and have people come for the scandal of

sexy doctor but when they come for that

I instead give them some accurate

information or maybe have them come for

some comedy and give them some health

information that was a way to get people

interested because if we're being honest

Healthcare information textbooks science

it can be boring if you're not

passionate about it but if you can

present it in a way like some of the

amazing teachers that I've had over the

years in a way where it's fun it's

engaging they make it um almost like a

journey that you're going on suddenly

you pay attention you have a few

takeaways and then from those takeaways

you're better equipped to handle some of

the things that could come up with it

during life and I really took that to

heart in the beginning and over the last

five years I've really studied what

marketers have done so well in the

commercial space or what those snake

oils salesmen have done so well in

pitching their misinformation and take

those same principles but bring them to

evidence-based medicine allow people to

have fun while they're learning there's

a lot of information out there as it

relates to health what is your sort of

framework for deciding what you share

and how you share it when there's so

many a lot of these studies as well the

the methodology of the studies is often

hard to trust because of the way that

that you know certain studies where they

look at kind of they don't

isolate one variable so you look you

look at the study and it could be

anything they say you know they you hear

these studies about like veganism for

example where they say veganism is is

healthier but that doesn't remove out

all the other factors in that person's

lifestyle maybe okay maybe they're

they're eating less meat but it's

processed meat that they're having with

fries and hamburgers Etc so how do you

what's your framework for deciding if

something is true in a SP in a sea of

information every time I look at some

new

research I

treat it differently than most people

would in the media space and I also

treat it differently than an individual

would treat it so if you're a news

outlet and a breakthrough study comes

out they treat it like it's the answer

to people's problems like it's the new

and best I take that research and I

apply it to the existing data and

knowledge that I've gotten over the

years through my medical education and

position it in where it belongs so some

research comes out it might make me lean

in saying we need to move closer to a

plant focused diet it doesn't mean that

everyone needs to be on it doesn't mean

we need to eliminate everything because

in medicine extremes are rarely right

even when we're talking about

optimization you'll hear oftentimes

people say oh you can boost your immune

system you could hyper optimize this no

no no hyper optimization is Extreme

whenever you're going to those extremes

you start creating problems because

that's how the human body works it works

in homeostasis it wants to be balanced

and the enemy of balance is bad but also

perfect so what do you make of this

optimization longevity anti-aging live

forever culture that's emerged in the

last couple years I understand where

it's coming from uh We've made a lot of

scientific progress we believe that we

should have the answers to the one

problem that is facing all of us and

that's that life is not forever but I

feel like the field has been

corrupted and it's actually the way that

healthc care has been corrupted across

the board so when we talk about health

insurance the Pharma

industry anti-aging industry a lot of it

has been

corrupted with capitalism and I take and

I say that as someone who's actually Pro

capitalism but I believe Healthcare is a

commodity that cannot be

lift I love the idea of being able to

call something on demand doesn't quite

work for healthcare you demanding what

you want for your body when you're not

the expert doesn't always yield the best

results we've seen that time and time

again I see it with my patients when

they come in and it's very clear that

they have a viral Illness but they

demand

antibiotics or they demand uh a

medication that's going to help them

live

longer doesn't exist we don't have yet

the evidence to sell these things to

people to explain them to people but

there will always be a person who will

take some new information some

preliminary data data from an animal

model from a petri dish and sell it as

the next great thing this happened with

the Fountain of Youth this happened with

literally snake oil hundreds of years

ago and now it's happening but with the

power of social media and the fact that

this misinformation a lot of times is

Insidious you don't realize that it's so

bad and so problematic because what it's

doing is it's actually tricking people

into not understanding how science Works

how when we put out a hypothesis an idea

of what we think could happen we

actually strive to disprove our

hypothesis so if I say this glass of

water here will help you live longer I

will actually as a scientist want to set

out to prove that it doesn't and I will

think of every way and I would bring on

people to disagree with me and find ways

that we could test that this doesn't

work but right now on social media what

you see is a lot of people just

supporting what agrees with them what

are some of those ideas that have

proliferated across social media that

irritate you the most and you think are

most harmful I think the ones that

create certainty in an uncertain world

and I think that could apply to pretty

much any field I talked about the gray

Zone earlier and I think the gray Zone

has

changed 30 years ago the gray Zone was

weight loss yeah and if you put on any

TV channel especially late at night

there would be a fat burner there'd be

some grapefruit diet or some next great

thing that someone came up with but

everyone forgets about all that people

used to sell you nonsense to try and

help you lose weight and all of it

didn't work it was not healthy even if

it made you lose weight it was in an

unhealthy way it ended up creating and

fueling this almost eating disorder like

cycle for most folks and then came out

some medic s like

OIC and people started actually losing

weight with an FDA approved medicine

that had Real Results now you see less

of those fat burner ads but you see more

of a new Gray Zone

anti-aging science doesn't have an

answer to stop us from aging we don't

have the answers perfectly to our

genetic code but boy there will be a

genetic test for sale that will tell you

exactly what you need to avoid but the

reality is we just don't know and it's

not sexy to say I don't know but I've

been passionate about encouraging folks

to celebrate those experts who come in

and say here's what we don't know but

here's how we're working to get to those

answers because that's what gets me

excited there's so many breakthroughs

being made in medicine and we don't talk

about those honest breakthroughs because

they're not always exciting but if we

could pair it with something cultural if

we could pair it with some comedy with

some fun I think we can get in front of

a lot of eyes one of the first things

you said there was was about weight loss

in a zmek and it's

a incredibly relevant and

um widely discussed subject at the

moment as zmek I I listen to the

research on a zek and I am someone that

typically has a bias towards not taking

medications if I can and pursuing a

natural route and and that is what we do

too yeah which is understated in most uh

circles

as doctors yeah yeah so our training for

example if you look at our we have a

reference called let's say up toate it's

a medical platform where we could go and

get guidance on any medical condition

and it could tell us what the

epidemiology is who gets sick with it uh

what is the diagnosis that we should do

to try and make it like what Laboratory

Testing what Imaging we should do uh

What treatments work first line Second

Line third line Etc if we look at pretty

much any crime disease treatment whether

it's high blood pressure um sugar

management from like

diabetes all of the first steps is

lifestyle

modifications that's what we're taught

is that because of the type of training

you had doctor you became or is that all

medical doctors that is all medical

doctors but what ends up happening is

twofold

one patients love a

shortcut they love having a medication

potentially do the work that they may

not be able to or don't want to you know

it's difficult to generalize here

because some patients truly have

difficult lives they have three jobs

they're a single parent they're uh

having a mental health crisis so they

may not be able to do those lifestyle

changes but then there's a portion of us

who could do it but prefer to take the

shortcut and that's pretty human of us

we we would like to get the shortcut we

would like to take the edge is there

such a thing as a shortcut in healthcare

no and I heard you actually say it on

your last podcast uh covering OIC that

there is no shortcut there are side

effects and trade-offs to everything and

you're absolutely right in that there is

no such thing as just something that is

all good

hydration you can't live without it over

drink you'll throw off your electrolytes

you could damage your brain you could

lose your life carrots healthy food I

would say eat enough you'll turn

orange same thing goes for medications

and that's why when people go and

villainize treatments

medications supplements it just depends

and there needs to be Nuance it's too

hard to paint medicine with a broad

brush but social media makes that really

tempting that that non aemp path if I'm

not going to take the the new sort of

fat burning magic pills or the appetite

I guess I guess they suppress appetite

um magic pills

that becomes another a bit of still is a

bit of a gray area in many respects

because we on the drug side of things

people now have an option that's FDA

approved but if they don't want to

pursue that path there's still all of

this other information around okay I

want to lose weight and there's lots of

opportunity for a lot of people to

present them with Solutions there's a

there's a roaring debate around calories

which seems to just be never ending and

um I wanted to get your take on that if

if someone was you know in your training

when you've been advised to suggest

Lifestyle Changes first and foremost if

I'm trying to lose a bit of weight I'm

you know at risk of being diabetic or

something what would you say to me as

your

patient it would be hard to generalize

it because it really depends on what

pre-existing conditions exist what have

you tried thus far what works what do

you have time for what do you have

budget for on that point of tried thus

far why is that why does that matter so

much if I have a patient who's tried

dieting

and

failed and I don't ask that question and

I recommend

dieting they may not take the advice

they may nod because they want to be a

quote unquote good patient and leave and

say not doing it but if I ask that

question they can say they tried and

failed then that gives me an opportunity

to ask what exactly did they try did

they try some really restrictive diet

that's out there carnivore keto what

have you and that set them up for fail

something that wasn't able to be

sustainable whereas now I can explain

that hey the thing you tried actually

set you up for failure and here's a more

reasonable recommendation that we can

try and now I can actually be a doctor

that recommends a dietary modification

that could help them what's the key to

finding a diet that is successful from

your experience what are the like the

foundational factors of that diet that's

going to typically make it stick there's

two real things that you need to think

about when it comes to dieting one

is its impact on your weight because

calories in and calories out as non-sexy

as it sounds as clinical and cold and

heartless as it sounds is

true second you also need to think about

the nutrients in your food because if we

just take one of those parts and ignore

the other we can get into a really bad

place I can uh even see those grapefruit

diets that people say like eat three

grap fruits a day and you'll lose weight

yeah you will because you're underc

consuming calories but is that healthy

from a nutrition side absolutely not on

the other side is you can get enough

protein enough nutrients but if you're

overeating calories you can get into a

metabolic problem where now you're

carrying excess weight and increasing

your risks of all sorts of conditions so

the goal is to get you in a place where

it's balanced in both a caloric weight

management standpoint but also an

ideally a healthy nutritional balance as

well well and what that means personto

person is going to vary it's going to

vary based on the medical condition they

have some patients who are anemic may

need certain nutrients that someone

who's not anemic doesn't need someone

who's prone to kidney stones may need a

slightly different diet than someone who

is IBS prone so we need to always take

into account that generalized advice

isn't great when it comes to Health Care

especially when it's very easy to create

Buzzy statements from truth

in healthare like I said on a podcast

not too long ago that exercise for

weight loss Almost Doesn't Matter and

that's a buzzy statement because on one

hand it's true but you also need to pair

it with some nuance and say exercise has

so many benefits outside of weight loss

of why it's important to participate in

exercise and the idea of weight loss

needs to come from

nutrition that's where the majority of

the change will come from Super

interesting cuz I've sat here with so

many people that have said that to me um

they've said that when you look at a lot

of the studies exercise as a if you if

you give prescribe someone exercise to

lose weight they probably won't lose

weight um but I would definitely say

that in culture people see exercise as

the many would see I reckon the primary

way you lose weight they think you have

to go for a run to lose weight and and

again you've Express the Nuance there

but I've even I've struggled with

understanding that because over here

people say exercise isn't super useful

for weight loss in the studies but then

the the prevailing narrative in society

is that if you want to lose weight you

got to get on a running machine that's

because they're equating in their

minds Health with a magazine

cover and health is not a magazine

cover they think that you need to have

big muscles to be considered healthy and

while you can have big muscles and be

healthy you could have big muscles and

be tremendously unhealthy so just

looking at someone's appearance doesn't

give you the full picture just like

looking at someone's weight doesn't give

you the full picture you need to know

more and when it comes to exercise and

weight loss let's just take for a very

simple example I used to go to the

movies when I was a kid I loved it I did

it all the time it is not unusual to eat

a tub of popcorn a little candy bar and

a soda well over over 1,000 calories do

you know how hard it is through exercise

to burn off a th000 extra

calories most of us are not physically

even equipped to burn a th000 calories

during an exercise session so it's just

about the science of not being able to

out exercise a bad diet what if I just

eat loads of salads I think I've been in

that mindset before where I thought well

I it's just really I could

have well I've been in periods of my

life where I've just just eaten more and

more and more good stuff quotequote good

stuff things that I thought were good um

but I also didn't lose

weight you are you're a really smart

person you're a person that wants to be

as effective as you can in your podcast

in your communication style and you're

amazing at it you want to do the same

thing with your diet and the hacks and

tricks that you use in your business

mind in your communication mind don't

work for healthcare you cannot find the

shortcut of the salad that's going to

fix everything that bothers you of the

probiotic Miracle supplement it's not

going to be there that's why some of the

minds that actually end up falling for

the most simplest forms of

misinformation are those who are really

good at

business because the things that work

very well in the business world and the

communication space don't work in

healthcare because Healthcare is not a

commodity healthare does not work well

with extremes you cannot do something so

good all the time without it having

negative repercussions you want to be

good not perfect when it comes to

healthare and the more you try and Chase

perfect number one you're going to get

the negative response but also number

two you're going to create anxieties

worries that are also toxic to your

body you have to be very careful so

perfect is not only Just an Illusion

it's a toxic

illusion I saw someone talking recently

about the calories in calories out thing

and the first comment was a lady who I

think had a pre-existing condition

basically saying because my because of

my pre-existing condition the calories

in calories out thing does not work for

me I've tried it and then the health

influencer responded and said it works

for

everybody both statements are true okay

dialectics are common in healthcare

we're two opposing ideas can both be

true someone can try and do calories in

calories out which through science works

but the application of it can fail well

I'm thinking not about the application

and like the science of it is it

regardless of whether I have a

pre-existing condition not

regardless pre-existing conditions is

part of the application okay the

individual is part of the application I

think she was making the case that

because of that existing condition that

the maths of it don't apply to her like

it doesn't actually work on her body it

shifts versus the applic okay it

absolutely shifts and that's the truth

for most medicine like when I try and

get my patients into a healthy blood

pressure range because we know that uh

having a resting blood pressure above a

certain number predisposes you to having

risks of heart attack stroke all these

cardiovascular

conditions when I treat them with a

medication after lifestyle changes

either didn't work or they weren't able

to go down that route

we have this really unique knowledge

public healthwise we know that

controlling the blood pressure on a

large scale will lower deaths

significantly we'll lower heart attacks

significantly but by me medicating this

one

patient I have no idea if it's going to

help this individual exactly but that's

because all we're doing in medicine is

doing our best with the limited

information that we have on

hand closing off on that point about

exercise so if if we shouldn't be

thinking about exercise as a way to lose

weight what what is the sort of Medical

Advantage the physiological Advantage

for me if I go to the gym every day and

I'm I'm active literally everything else

if I could bottle the effects of uh

exercise and sell it richest person on

Earth happiness

mood social connections strength ability

to decrease cancer risk decrease uh

increase ability to fight off cancer

increase longevity literally everything

else is the benefit of exercise and I

say that as someone who's been very

exercise focused but over the last few

months I've kind of fallen off I've

gained some weight I haven't been

exercising as much as I want because

sometimes life gets hard life gets in

the way things become problematic mental

health sometimes takes a struggle and we

need to be aware that that can happen

the idea that we need to make every

person perfect or if they're not perfect

they failure that's such a dangerous

Rabbit Hole to go into how much

exercise going to vary person to person

General guidelines say 150 minutes of

moderate intensity exercise per week

which isn't a lot two and a half hours

um moderate intensity meaning that you

shouldn't be able to speak full

sentences maybe one sentence at a time

until you're out of breath is a simple

way to put it when you you um have such

a broad view on medicine well I noticed

that in your content I was like this guy

really knows he really has a real much

more Broad View than the neuroscientist

I spoke to yesterday who's really

focused on you know maybe one part of

the body with that broad view what are

you concerned about in terms of macro

social trends the direction of travel

that we're going in with our health we

talked about misinformation and

disinformation but but actual realities

of the Western Health Care

condition first of all I think it's

important that we have both individuals

participating and having a seat at the

table the broad view primary care

physician and the single point expert

neuroscientist like you had on your

podcast before me we need both in fact

where I'm able to gather my information

from is from all those researchers that

are putting in those hours at the bench

making sure that they're checking their

biases showing the flaws of their own

research without them I am nothing right

like where did I get my knowledge from

from them so we absolutely need to do

this in a teamwork approach I think the

big problem that we face today is two

things one the loss of trust in our

health care world that's huge people

don't trust healthc care advice they

don't trust our agencies frankly the

loss of trust of doctors has been rather

shocking over the last decade and then

second is it's more of a philosophical

issue that I raise because I don't know

where it's going to go where we've

created this world of processed foods

unhealthy Foods foods that it caus us to

eat more and more and more and feel not

satiated and then we've come up with a

medication to solve that we've created

apps that pull our attention spans that

allow us to focus 10 15 seconds at a

time before we swipe to the next

thing now a lot of people are requesting

prescriptions for ADHD

medications there's people who want to

stay out all night and party and still

maintain their physical gains they get

on testosterone early when they don't

need

to how hyperm medicated are we going to

get as a

society to a point

of actually harming us and I don't know

the answer to it I'm not smart enough to

know the answer to that but I think it's

a good philosophical question to ask

ourselves are you scared about what

would happen if we had a pandemic that

is 10 times more deadly than the

previous pandemic break out now are you

scared because of that loss of trust the

more deadly the pandemic a lot of times

the less problematic it is isn't that

weird oh okay so initial SARS virus was

significantly moread than SARS Cove 2

which is the virus that causes covid-19

so initially when the reports came out

about The lethality rate of SARS Cove 2

covid-19 we said oh well it's not as bad

as SARS we'll be okay because most

people with SARS got really sick they

lost their lives but because

asymptomatic spread was a thing with

covid meaning that you could feel fine

or maybe just have a sniffles and spread

it it killed Millions more

people and that's what that brings me

back to that point of when I said

Insidious misinformation can be more

problematic than true

disinformation because when something

doesn't seem so

bad that can we can allow it to go much

further and cause much more harm

complacency can complacency and feelings

of safety like oh well this one's not as

Hill we're good I I feel fine we're good

but when you look at it and you zoom out

macro oh my God it's Wrecking Havoc

across the world

and I've actually equated this to

vaping vaping is not as harmful

as cigarettes on

paper but because the odor is not as

offensive it's easier to hide you could

do it much quicker and get a bigger dose

because it feels like it's not as

harmful many more people can get hooked

on

it is vaping dangerous yes

why and how so many of my friends VIP I

think three three out of my six best

friends they're just like they're like

they're just absolutely addicted they

never smoked interestingly that's the

issue of it that it gets people who

maybe would have been turned off by

smoking to try and the chemicals found

inside are really rewarding to the brain

nicotine being prime example of it and

the more dangerous part of it is with

kids who have a developing frontal lobe

meaning that the part of their brain

that is responsible for complex

decision- making is not yet fully formed

so they're incredibly susceptible to

anything that can build a tolerance a

dependence uh an addiction to and it can

change the chemistry of their brain

moving forward so we don't want to make

it easier for them to start smoking

vaping should be used as a tool as a way

of getting you off of cigarettes not as

a way of introducing you to cigarettes

or nicotine at

all is it dangerous for adults as well

if you're coming off cigarettes no it's

a good choice but if you never all my

friends that Vape never smoked yep it's

not it's not something that carries

value healthwise and can only

potentially harm have they have they

done any I guess it's super difficult to

do studies on these kinds of things but

have is there any studies that have been

done around vaping yeah there's been

vaping related lung injury where that's

its own diagnosis code now um there's

been children that have been

hospitalized with it um there's been

even technical problems of the devices

blowing up in people's faces so it's not

the fact that I'm trying to fearmonger

here and say vaping is the devil I'm

here trying to explain that vaping can

be problematic because on the surface it

may not look as harmful by

comparison Everything is trade-offs

Everything is trade so interesting it's

like when I see all my friends vaping

they're all in we're all in Dubai a

couple of about a year ago and I thought

Poss me because they will have these

little like disposable Vape things now

so let me try I tried it and it was

really nice and I thought oh God I could

get into this and if it's not unhealthy

CU like we all know that smoking is

unhealthy I thought you know your head

you think oh what's the harm I could

have so easily gotten to it luckily I

just I'm always

skeptical when I don't know the side

effect I I would rather accept the side

effects yeah and it be super clear than

to someone say say to me there's no side

effects when someone says there's no

side effects I always well that's like

the whole nature fallacy when someone's

like oh but this is natural natural

first of all what does that mean because

like they say vitamins are natural but

they're made in a lab I don't know how

that's considered natural and also just

because something natural doesn't mean

it's safe arsenic cyanide natural but

deadly the ADHD point you mentioned Y

what are you seeing as a doctor you know

over the last couple of years the the

term ADHD neurodiversity has seems to

have become more and more prevalent

everywhere I look it feels like I'm

hearing a conversation around ADHD is

that because there's been a social sort

of heightened awareness to the subject

and now people are getting diagnosed

more are we creating more ADHD somehow

or is it somewhere in between yeah I I

assume it's something in between I don't

have a clear answer to it uh I do know

that neuro Divergence needs to be talked

about more and that's not just from the

ADHD perspective it's also from um

autism spectrum disorder uh situation as

well where it's folks are going to be

different and some people want treatment

for a condition others don't and we have

to respect people's autonomy even when

we talk about something like vaping if

an adult wants to vape as long as I can

convey to them as their doctor the

risks everyone's free to make their own

decisions no one lives a life where they

say I'm going to take no risks everyone

has a different risk tolerance level

everyone is comfortable with a different

level of care in life some people want

more care some people want less care

even at the end of life I have

discussions with my patients for end of

Life Care often and a lot of times

they're shocked by it they're like wait

do you think something's wrong with me

I'm 30 years old why are you talk this

is the time to talk about it when you're

healthy when you you aren't facing a

decision that you have to make right now

that's when you're going to be able to

spend some time and think about what

kind of medical care you want you know

I'm a doctor here that became a

professional boxer A couple of years ago

that is not healthy I do not recommend

it it increases all sorts of risks for

head and injury chronic traumatic incopy

all of that is true it's a risk that I

was willing to accept because I studied

the risks I accepted the risks I don't

doubt the risks but it's something that

I'm passionate about and uh I wanted to

go down that route enjoying it very much

so it's a great outlet for me why did

you choose boxing despite the risks yeah

I would say that boxing probably chose

me instead of uh me choosing boxing I uh

I did Taekwondo growing up so I was in

martial arts for8 years and then um when

I was in medical school I unfortunately

lost my mom to cancer and that was a a

really strong wakeup call for me being

in the medical field knowing what it's

like to be in the room to ask the

doctors to stop doing chest compressions

on your mom I mean that is not something

that I wish on anyone that's that's the

worst thing you can experience

especially when my father was there also

a doctor who was saying no keep going

but I knew was futile I knew we were

causing more harm and in going through

that journey I got into a very unhealthy

mental state I didn't leave my house

except to go to class I came home I was

socially isolated and after a period of

3 four months where that was going on I

said I need to get out of this I need to

take the my own advice that I give to

people and take the advice that you need

to have action before you get motivation

and the action that I took was to go

on guilt City do you remember that app

it's like a group ones app where you can

get a coupon to a a class and I got a

coupon for a boxing class and I went and

did this boxing session and then I ended

up boxing for 10 years after that

session fell in love with the sport and

then a couple years ago I ended up

fighting on Showtime pay-per-view in

front of an audience of 15,000 people

wow and uh it's it's been a unique

Journey so while it's easier to vilify

boxing and say that it's problematic for

some people if the trade-off is right it

might be something that uh they could

participate in and it could be very

healthy for

them losing your

mother for anybody I think is just

something that is unimaginably

unimaginably painful but in the

circumstances that you lost your mother

where from what I understood she was

given the all clear at one point with

her yeah so um she had this unique form

of cancer called

CLL and this is usually a cancer of old

age where you get diagnosed with it and

you end

up dying of something else other than

that cancer but she had a unique more

aggressive form of CLL where they needed

to really ramp up treatment and her

treatment took a toll on her body

like she did not look the same post

treatment she did not feel the same but

it was all in the hopes of curing this

cancer and I remember very vividly I was

I was going to Memorial Sloan ketering

hospital to pick her up one day and she

actually fell waiting for me at the

waiting area so the doctor came down and

talked to me and said maybe we should

keep her observation for a day or so um

but overall she's doing great she's just

very weak from the treatment and he

shook my hand in that moment and said

she's cured there's no more cancer in

her body now we just got to get her to

recover from all these treatments and

that's the greatest news anyone can hear

your hopes 10 out of

10 and just a few short days

later her weakness got so severe that

she got uh a very unique type of

bacteria called gram negative in her

blood causing gram negative sepsis

spread throughout her body she required

the use of Presser medication to

artificially raise her blood pressure to

prevent her organs from dying and it

didn't work and unfortunately she lost

her life and one of the hardest moments

there was watching my father go through

this who with my mom sacrificed their

lives to bring us to the United States

as immigrants gave up their lives he

went to medical school for a second time

in his life she went to University after

having a PhD in Russia to learn English

and be able to teach students math here

in the states

it it was um it was painful to watch my

dad go through it so I think for the

first few

months my focus was more on him than it

was even on

myself did that experience change your

perspective of medicine and the medical

industry in any way because in that

moment a doctor a doctor turned to you

and said your mother is cured and it

wasn't the it sounds like it wasn't the

cancer itself that did the harm it was

the treatment for the cancer that did

the harm

I never was mad at the doctor for saying

that it would have been easy to in a

situation like that where you thought

you were good but then it wasn't it

taught me a lesson about how life can be

cruel and take things away from you very

quickly after just receiving good news I

remember sharing a a meme on my

Instagram that it had like you colon I'm

actually happy right now and then life

colon hang on a

second and that's kind of kind of how

life

is so it taught me to be able to bounce

back from adversity and realize that you

have to put one foot in front of the

other while still being able to feel

because repressing emotions in the short

term is a valuable tool you know if

you're unable to function in terms of

high stress in the moment you could lose

your life you could make a really bad

decision you could harm others

you might not be able to successfully

hold down a job but if you do that for a

really long period of time even that as

a aute coping strategy can become toxic

and I was getting into that point where

it was becoming chronic and I was

blocking my feelings of not mourning my

mom not having the proper process and

for everyone that process will be

different you moved in with your father

after that yep if I was a if I was a fly

on the wall in that in that household at

that time what would

observed

two gentlemen trying to raise a dog very

poorly that's probably not what you

expected but I um in trying to always

find some kind of way to help um I

thought by helping my dad redirect his

feelings towards something else um I got

a Siberian Husky for him in that moment

which we always wanted a dog even my mom

wanted the dog and uh he took some time

to travel to more in my mother's

passing and while he was doing that I

raised a dog a little bit for a few

weeks got her at least potty trained and

then when he came home she was there he

was typical Soviet father yelling at me

and telling me why this is a bad idea

crying which I never saw in my father

before obviously until the loss of my

mom and

um then he started being happy

he started saying what should we call

her his Focus shifted his Focus shifted

to going for walks with her which

allowed him to think about my mom to not

be locked into the house as so many

people are when they're going through a

rough time so while I think it was

chaotic of us trying to raise this puppy

together it gave us something to bond

around in a moment of tough times there

will be a lot of people listening right

now that are maybe in the throws of that

grief or the throws of Their Own sadness

or depression for whatever reason right

and it's um when you're in the midst of

the storm when it's it's hard to see any

way out and you said something super

interesting which is you said you

realize that like action comes before

motivation yep if I if I'm someone

that's in that situation right now and

I'm listening what would you say to that

person put on your

shoes they'll you'll go somewhere

doesn't matter where you'll go Chim not

Jim walk dog park you can go to a dog

park without a

dog it's

therapy the biggest therapy that I think

I've ever had and I've gone through

traditional therapy was going to a dog

park with my dog after my mom passed

away it's such a weird thing but animal

therapy is

real and you know who actually gave me

that advice speaking of Dragons Den um

Barbara corkran oh really she said that

the way that she gets herself to

exercise cuz she doesn't like to she

hates it she's very vocal about it but

she says next to her bed are her shoes

her athletic shoes that if she puts them

on she's like all right well since I

have them on I may as well go exercise

and that one little step creates that

Cascade look will it work for everybody

is this the Miracle Solution no but it's

one step and even if you just do that

one step and nothing else the next time

it'll be easier to put on the shoes and

maybe try for the second

one putting on the shoes is hot as well

when you're in that in

showering is hard grooming is

hard the basics of all Basics is

hard that's why when I hear advice like

go make some friends online when you're

feeling down oh boy that's tough

advice that's not easy so the putting on

the shoes thing is simple in the sense

of doesn't require others to be around

you to judge you doesn't have any steps

after that just to put on the the shoes

and if you're at that point seeking help

from a medical professional is of utmost

importance because we've put this stigma

where if you go for mental health

treatment you're somehow weak but if you

go for treatment for a broken bone

you're not weak that stigma doesn't

exist for it and that's strange because

both things can have problems arise with

it especially from a mental health

standpoint especially with the society

we find ourselves in currently Society

is the most unnatural that's ever been

for

humans how would you describe the

journey you've been on with your own

mental

health I don't know how I would describe

the journey I I would say just like most

people it's had ups and

downs I would say the the thing that's

really thrown me for a loop is the

social media world of it all because of

how unnatural that that is but I feel

like a lot of people are working through

that without even having a social media

platform because at the end of the day

these days everyone's a content

creator right like when you make a video

and it gets millions of views you kind

of know what to expect being a content

creator you have experience but Johnny

Rebecca someone else putting out a video

on their social media at 16 years old

that too can get a million views and

they're not ready for what comes with a

million views in fact so many people

even in the medical community reach out

and say how do I go viral I'm like do

you want to go

viral that's thrown your your mental

heal through a bit of a loop yeah I was

obsessed with it checking it all the

time and I wasn't obsessed for it for

the reason most people think I was

obsessed with it from a place of growth

I was like even if they're 99% BS

there's some kind of truth there's a

kernel of Truth there that I could take

away and make myself better and you know

there is truth to that I did learn a lot

of things I did prevent some mistakes

I've improved my content as a result of

listening to negative feedback and

criticism but I've had to in working

with my therapist carve out moments

where I'm not in a place where that's

acceptable for me right now where you

just have to say this I'm not in a

healthy mindset to look what was the

symptom

of the impact it was having on

you um tremendous

anxiety where you're just worried at all

times and you're almost addicted to

checking it because you want to be ahead

of it you want to be safe you want to be

able to think of a

response and when you get to that point

you're never letting your mind rest

you're always in fight or flight and

when you're in fight or flight you're

not resting you're not repairing you're

not getting good quality sleep even so I

know how important that is I talk about

it all the time but as I said you know

we're all not perfect doctors are

probably the biggest Hypocrites when it

comes to their own health I guarantee

you some of the people that have come on

your podcast that talk about sleep or

talk about

this they struggle with sleep they don't

do those things just like how some

advice that I give I don't follow to the

tea my job is just to present the

evidence so I know certain things that I

should be doing better but just because

I know doesn't mean that I'm going to be

100% following it all the time this is

interesting thing that I I was just

thinking about as you're saying that

that um at like a philosophical level I

think we're all kind of just passing our

anxiety on to someone else like it's

like energy cannot be destroyed and must

be transferred I I noticed this because

on my podcast I have multiple guests

that often disagree with each other and

if I was to do a map of how those people

are feeling they're all suffering well

that's just Humanity as a whole they're

all like really suffering and sometimes

those people are suffering because of

someone else who suffered and then

because of someone else's it's almost

like this this chain of suffering

because of misunderstanding a variety of

different reasons but I think as you say

Humanity as a whole the person that's

leaving those messages or you know

attacking you is probably also suffering

in their own way of course it's a real

shame but I can't see any way out it's

it's a like the circle of anxiety is an

artistic way to put it for sure um but I

think there's there's some truth to it

you know uh even from trauma the odds

are that if you've experienced a

traumatic childhood that you will also

potentially cause trauma to others goes

up that risk does go up and that's also

pretty Common Sense even if you're not

looking at the medical research you

could just say that if you've been hurt

ozar you can hurt people what do they

say hurt people hurt people too right um

I think that that's like uh that Common

Sense logic that does get it right

what's the um did your therapist give

you any advice that's proven to be

useful well the advice that you put

perfectly in in place of logging off not

looking at certain things at certain

times of the day like literally I had to

completely shut off my phone at certain

times of the day because otherwise what

happens is I would get into the cycle of

okay I just finished in the hospital I

just filmed my video for the day now

it's sleep time and just before going

into bed let's check my phone one last

time and search the social media sites

what people are saying and it's like

why that's ultim Ely what I think

probably got me healthier like not

looking at it was very good in moments

of Despair because during those moments

I was just so fragile and it would not

be a good time to look but really where

it got me is what got me is don't look

unless there's something valuable you're

getting from looking at it so now if I'm

in a healthy place and I feel like I'm

looking and I'm doing some kind of

preventive task I'm learning from it I'm

like okay I'm looking at it but I'm

looking at it with some kind of

intention and that's actually true for

all of social media I think um he was on

your show as well Dr Robert waldinger

who ran the largest uh the longest

running study at Harvard of Happiness

talked about the different usages of

social media how if you use social media

passively and you just look and consume

it can be rather disheartening and make

you unhappy but if you use it to form a

community to learn from it to better

yourself suddenly the social media may

not have as bad of a health impact and

can actually have a positive mental

health impact so if I'm looking at the

negative comments I'd have to do that

check-in with myself of am I doing this

because I'm actually benefiting from it

or is it destructive in

nature have you ever wondered if there's

something about you that makes

you more likely to look at that stuff or

to care about that stuff I've often

wondered about that myself yeah I I I

feel like I have I think it's a it's a

pretty natural thing I think most people

look um I think for me

I derive so much value in the work that

I do on social media because this was

never meant to be a financial Venture

this was not some Grand ideology that I

had to make myself successful this was

solely because of my frustration as a

practicing doctor which the first

question ever anyone ever asked me when

I got into social media is like now that

you're doing so well you must want to

quit medicine right like you're probably

out earning it yeah but that's not why I

do medicine I work at a community health

center most doctors that do really well

on social media either leave medicine or

maybe do concierge practice or you know

celebrity practice or something I work

at a community health center where 50%

of people don't have

insurance so that's been my goal and

social media is just a tool to help me

with that goal and when I see negative

comments I view it as a threat to that

goal have you ever considered quitting

social

media seriously I pondered what life

would be like um but I just viewed it as

a negative all around not just for me I

just VI view as social media such an

opportunity to help people it's like me

saying quitting medicine I don't want to

quit medicine I I want to be there for

people I want to be valuable and useful

I in fact I think about myself as like a

more practical useful person and every

strength that everyone has can also be

their weakness so sometimes I'm too

practical and that impacts you as a

friend as a partner as a family member

so sometimes being too practical is

problematic but because of my practical

nature I want to be useful to my

patients so let's continue with this um

this health related stuff supplements

and vitamins I wanted to get your take

on that there's a lot of you've

mentioned supplements and a few times in

this

conversation is that part of the gray

area is that snake oil what's your POV

on

supplements I want to say like one

sentence that is all-encompassing and

answers all those questions but it's

really hard because there's just so much

Nuance with it um

vitamins we can't live without them we

need them supplements supplemental

vitamins are not necessary the huge

majority of the time and are often sold

by people who are praying on

Securities promising

shortcuts and honestly people trying to

get

wealthy the evidence for almost all

supplements unless you have a very

specific reason for needing to take them

is

missing and what I've learned at through

my 10 years of being a physician

and the hundreds of years of practice of

medicine unless we're certain of some

benefit introducing new things

distracting people from things that work

is not a good solution is the harm of

supplements that they don't actually

work again with supplements is a broad

word so probably have to be is it the

harm that they don't work or is are you

saying that we should be getting all of

the things that we're supplementing from

our natural diet anyway or are you

saying both yes

and you can get all of your nutrients

again unless you have a specific medical

condition from foods

to they will make you skip out on doing

things that are healthy for you because

you think you can take a shortcut three

you're spending your limited health care

budget that many people have a very

limited health care Budget on things

that are very expensive making a lot of

promises and the thing that I'm most

worried about is when we enter the space

of people saying you need supplements

and not true Medical Treatments for

conditions that bother them or that

affect them if I'm someone that maybe

I'm not talking about myself here but if

I'm someone that has a very very limited

diet just because of my lifestyle

choices whatever would you recommend

that individual to take a multivitamin

supplement I probably

wouldn't but if they did I wouldn't

discourage them do they work that's what

I'm trying to figure out oh and then the

other point that I didn't mention is

that there's harm like you said

everything has trade-offs there's no

such thing as no side effects so

supplements have side effects they have

interactions with medications they can

create health conditions uh the term

antioxidants antioxidants are generally

healthy uh you know B vitamins are

traditionally labeled as healthy you

have too many of them we notice that

they become pro-inflammatory but no one

talks about that because you can't

really sell that so what instead gets

talked about is the promise of what they

could do but there's harms that come

from taking supplements especially in

our world where you know consumer labs

and Consumer Reports goes and pulls

supplements off the shelves to find out

that they don't have the ingredients

that are listed in them because they're

not regulated by the Food and Drug

Administration they have some

ingredients at 5 to 10x what's on the

label like vitamin A which is a fat

soluble vitamin and can actually be

really harmful so they're not regulated

they can cause potential harm their

benefit unless very clearly indicated is

in the air and not proven why recommend

them why sell

them and I say this as someone who can

make a

fortune I mean you said to yourself 12

million

subscribers you know I take a little

boxing selfie fit and say the reason I'm

this fit is because I take whatever

thing I bottled up in my house put into

those pills whatever powder I want no

one checks it and I could sell it and

become a multi-millionaire is that sure

that no one checks it no one checks it

no one checks this no one checks it

these supplements

no like right now we could bottle up on

the table our Miracle formula we can

call it a miracle formula yeah as long

as we don't make a claim that it treats

a specific medical condition that

requires the treatment of a medical

doctor okay and I just put buzzwords on

it so instead of

saying this helps your depression I just

say depression immunity support just

buzzwords feel good feel good happy

happy natural simple from the earth we

could sell it how much we don't have to

get anything we don't have to get

anything cleared by anybody how much you

think we'd

make too much money and that's why it's

like man I understand why people do it

and there is the notion that they could

potentially work there's always like a

little bit of evidence coming out

that're just going to cut break for

miracle M which is

on it's so tempting I get it and I get

there's also I don't want to label

everyone with a broad brush and say

they're evil and just trying to make

money some people do believe that they

work they they want the belief that this

is what alss us as a

society and I wish that was true I wish

it was as simple as giving people some

supplements or that eating eight almonds

a day will extend your life by 10 years

I wish that was the case um the subject

around gut microbiome is something that

I've talked about a lot on this podcast

because I've just had a lot of experts

talking to me about subject and

something that I didn't even know

existed three years ago I didn't realize

there was loads of bugs in my belly

um there are prebiotics probiotics all

of these things coming out now for to

enhance the what do they call it it's

not gut Flora is it microbiota

encompasses all of it is there truth

that prebiotics and probiotics are

useful for well there's truth in the

fact that we have all of these living

organisms inside of us there's a very

strong

interconnectedness between how we feel

disease conditions and and what species

of those bugs exists in us the counts by

which they exist that people who

generally eat specific foods that are

rich in them may have better health

outcomes than those who

don't but

manipulating those bugs has not been

proven or clear in the majority of ways

that people promise they do like we know

consuming fiber correlates With Better

Health less negative health

outcomes do we know that taking a

Prebiotic supplement does the same we

don't know do we know that having

specific bacteria in the gut gets

destroyed if you have a health condition

we do know that but does that mean

reestablishing it by taking it in a pill

will fix that condition we don't know

that but people will make that jump and

say no big deal we're trying to help but

to me it's a big deal because we're

promising something that we're uncertain

of without even some good evidence for

it there's very few conditions that

probiotics can actually help with well

what advice would you give someone that

comes into your practice and you

identify that they have some kind of gut

related gut microbiome related issue is

there anything that you would recommend

that they do to improve that got micro

micro well it would be focusing on foods

that are considered healthy for uh the

microbiome so foods that are rich in

fiber plants essentially um avoiding bad

habits poor quality sleep over drinking

alcohol smoking all those things are

unhealthy um the the the thing that

makes Health advice so boring is that

the things that grandma told us still is

what I say in my office and it's not

sexy and it puts people to sleep but

it's true that's what we know works we

don't have a perfect answer as to why

and right now there's like tests on the

market to check your microbiome to know

what food too preliminary to recommend

we don't know what to do with the

information the promises that they make

don't hold up when we look at it long

term genetic tests potential is there

for a lot of value most of them are very

preliminary unless you're working with a

geneticist on a very specific condition

so I think the hype often times speeds

up the selling of the products before

the evidence is there it outpaces the

evidence and in some instances medicine

does that too like traditional medicine

but it does that with some thought in

mind for example if we create an

emergency use authorization or if we

allow someone to have a treatment

exemption for something that is not

proven for a disease that's already

lethal that they're going to lose their

life anyway or if we don't act now we're

going to lose so many lives in the

moment then yeah there might be

instances where we can speed up the

process of certain things we can uh

create some shortcuts because we're

taking that trade-off that's thought

about but with a lot of these products

they come and go and there's just so

much misinformation around them you know

like one of the uh big individuals that

does this in this space and hate to

single out but it's just been such a um

a a voice in this community is Gary Brea

you know I I talked about him on my show

have you spoke to him no

and seems like a really good person

seems very passionate about what he's

talking

about but the the promises that are

being made are not

proven and the intention may be good and

good intentions can have bad outcomes

but if the information is not accurate

No matter how passionate you are about

the subject long term it's going to have

negative outcomes when you use the word

proven there do you mean that there's

not a significant or a a a reliable sort

of basis of research that's been done

yet to validate the hypotheses or the

statements or you're not saying that

it's been disproven it just hasn't been

proven yeah so that's a good point to

bring up the things that I say that are

inaccurate largely have not been

disproven because if I say the juice

inside this cup will help you live

forever would you say that's true or

not I Theory would be that that's not

true right but can you disprove it no

you would have to run a study to

disprove it yeah and that's how I

function as a doctor so I can't disprove

what he's saying because then I would

have to run my own study but based on

what we do know based on remember how I

said at the beginning when a new study

comes out I try and bring it to the

already the established information that

we have it doesn't Vibe with what we

know to be true if you want to go

against public health standards from

what we've established as science you

better have a good reason for doing it

and if you do I'm all ears I'm excited

for that kind of stuff if you have some

breakthrough of why you disagree with

the CDC with the wh with uh Harvard

Health please tell me why you disagree

but if you disagree because you said so

that's where things get problematic like

I'll give you the simplest of examples

there's a very famous clip that I

reacted to on my podcast where Gary Brea

says if you have headaches it's because

you're low on pink Himalayan sea

salt how many reasons do you think

people get

headaches many reasons you're not even

you're not even a doctor right my

brother has my brother has had chronic

headaches since he was since he was a

kid just you got a concussion you have

stress you have a hormone issue you have

a tumor there's so many you have

migraines you have a neck cramp what the

possibilities are endless right

to have the confidence to say this is

what you're

missing everything else Almost Doesn't

Matter the confidence is the

misinformation like notice every time

you asked me a question today it was

either I don't know it depends Nuance

for who it's almost annoying because I

can never give a clear answer but that's

what science is and that's actually why

people have lost trust in science

because we're not as confident as Gary

Brea when he talks about salt for

headaches sometimes you've been wrong

right of course sometimes you've I

remember reading um something where you

said I admit that I I change I've

changed my mindset when presented with

new information and I've explained why I

think when we we think about

doctors this is the part I think that

some people struggle with is if you look

over the course of sort 10 20 30 40

years some of the things we were told

were healthy back then are no longer

healthy and new information about I'm

well aware that this is a scientific

model but I'm I'm trying to the coun

trying to present the counter argument

put yourself in that shoe in that seat

yeah how do we know who to trust when

doctors say that they've been wrong and

they've changed their mind on really

critical things before and even you know

when we think about vaccine

disinformation right a lot of the

arguments you'll get from the right are

that you said this and now look what

happened so we'll never trust you again

how do we navigate and know who to

believe even doctors when doctors will

say information I gave you in the past

was actually no longer true you have to

take the hard route and do the work to

find out why they said what they said

then and why they're changing their mind

now so I'll give you an example y

actually maybe this isn't a doctor this

is um studies I remember having a guest

on my podcast that talked about I think

there was a bit of a crisis with um

depression drugs in the early years

where they had because of the way that

the tests had been done by the big

pharmaceutical

companies the CEO of the pharmaceutical

company knew that the depression drug

did not work and had all these side

effects but they pushed it through even

though the vast majority of the studies

had hadn't shown that the drug worked

they found one study that had they

pushed it through got to Market loads of

kids used it and then I think a decade

later I again I'm paraphrasing here I

link what I'm talking about below it was

discovered that the CEO of that company

knew it it didn't work but there was a

study and research that got it to Market

and people started using it I think

Johan hary who's been on my podcast

before he was the zmek episode we

released um he was one of the people as

a young man that started taking that

depression drug only to find out that

five six years seven eight years later

it didn't work and the CEO knew that it

wasn't really working so that was the

that was trust in the medical system it

that was trust in research that was

trust in big farmer much of the counter

movement we're seeing now is we think

big farmer is corrupt and we think

they're meddling with doctors to get

drugs into Market that maybe don't work

there's a lot of drugs on the market

agree

yeah if science is so problematic and we

shouldn't trust for all those reasons

why is it the one example that we're

stretching to find of the mistake that

was happened or the fraud that happened

with this one drug we're talking about

something that happened decades ago it

does happen fraud happens it happens in

healthcare it happens with policing it

happens politicians there is fraud but

pointing to that one episode and saying

we should throw the whole field away is

going to cause a loss for us and there

are issues with Pharma there's huge

issues with Pharma I frequently talk

about even from like the pricing

standpoint of Pharma how problematic

they are we've seen the issues with the

opioid epidemic how that was driven

largely by

Pharma but we're calling them out the

beauty of Western medicine of what we do

here is that we are the best at calling

ourselves out on our failures but

actually the more we call ourselves out

on our failures the more trust we've

lost and in fact when someone owes up to

their failures and seeks to learn from

them and seeks to make

change that's the person you want to

follow the person who is not confident

who is open to be transparent who

explains why these things are happening

without 100% confidence that's the

people that are giving you advice that's

true the same way that we said uh

earlier that everything is all natural

does not mean it's all

good everything for profit is not

necessarily evil my YouTube channel is

for profit I make a very healthy living

doing what I'm doing doesn't mean it's

evil so while it's easy to make

shortcuts and overgeneralize we have to

talk about specific instances and call

balls and Strikes as they are umpires

make mistakes healthcare industry has

made mistakes there's been vaccine

incidents in the past that have hurt

people we've learned from them we called

it out we've studied it we are con there

are doctors constantly

studying where we need to do better this

is ongoing at all times and the ironic

part is most people have no idea that

it's happening because we only find out

about it on issues we're passionate

about I recently did a video or I was on

a podcast where I was asked about birth

control I gave a very simple answer it

was

non motivated in any way it was just

kind of presenting the information as it

was there were a lot of very mean

comments in that information about how

birth control can potentially be harming

people that I don't believe the negative

side effects that can come with it all

these statements that were being made

and I found them to not be true I had to

do like a little soul searching to see

if they were true because I do that with

all the negative comments and I said no

birth control can have side effects just

like with any medication the reason why

birth control maybe is being brought up

is because this is a topic people are

very passionate about this is a topic

where doctors have discriminated in the

past about so it's a bit more triggering

to the emotional part of our brains but

if we look at what's leading

hospitalizations from a drug in the

United States Tylenol you don't see

anyone uproar making YouTube videos that

Tylenol is problematic what is Tylenol

acetamin paracetamol for you a