Trauma is like a virus, and it gets

passed along to your children even if

their children are not born until years

later because trauma can change the

expression of our genes. So, we need to

understand whether trauma is afflicting

us, how it's afflicting us, and how we

can treat it if it's there. Dr. Paul

Conti psychiatrist, expert in treating

trauma

He's worked with Kim Kardashian and

saved Lady Gaga's life.

and been in clinical practice for over

two decades. How many people have some

form of trauma? Well over half the

population. And trauma can change us in

very negative ways. For example, the

odds of traumatic brain changes are very

very high. We know trauma makes us age

faster than our calendar age. And we

know that ultimately the root of

depression, addiction, Parkinson's

disease is from trauma. Modern science

knows this, but we'll give them pills

with the idea that pills is going to fix

everything, and then we're surprised

that tens of thousands of people die

each year from prescribed pills. And

we've let that happen. What should we be

doing instead? The key to all of this is

curiosity. So, for example, let's say

someone is addicted to their phone.

Oftentimes addictive behavior is meant

as an escape from something or even to

self-punish. But when you scratch the

surface of that, you might learn about

an episode of sexual abuse that happened

when the person was a child. This is not

uncommon.

What are the telltale signs that I am

traumatized? What can I do to alleviate

the trauma? And then, can you completely

get rid of a trauma? The answer is based

in hard science. So,

It's absolutely crazy to me that so many

of you have decided to watch our show um

and so many of you have decided to

subscribe to our show. We now have 5

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[music]

[music]

Dr. Paul Conti

On the front of your book, it says

trauma, the invisible epidemic.

Why did you use those two words,

invisible and epidemic?

[clears throat]

Well,

as a practicing psychiatrist, what I

started seeing over and over and over

again is that the the root cause of the

vast majority of what I was treating,

whether it was depression or addiction

or panic, that that ultimately the root

of it was trauma. That if we traced

back, what we would learn is that there

was something that had happened in that

person's life. It could have been acute

or it could have been chronic over time,

but that changed their brain. So, that

the brain is then different going

forward, and that is the root of the

problem. So, from that sense, I could

see there's an epidemic because this is

behind what is ailing us, right? The the

50% or more of complaints to general

medical doctors are coming from mental

health. Right? These are general

physical medical medicine doctors. So,

you imagine how much of what is going on

inside of us is affecting our health.

So, the the epidemic of trauma is

touching us in so many ways, but we're

not identifying it. We're identifying

different illnesses. For example, like,

"Oh, that that person has depression.

That person has cardiovascular disease

and had a heart attack." Right? But

those things may be linked, including

autoimmune diseases, all aspects of

mental and physical health, but we're

not seeing that at the heart of it is

the trauma that then changes us. And our

brains and our bodies are different as

we move forward. So, to start seeing

this commonality, that this is

everywhere, and we're not identifying it

because one of the impacts of trauma is

to make a reflexive sense of guilt and

shame in us. So, then we sort of hide

things away. So, we're changed, made

less healthier, and the the very trauma

itself leads us to have a tendency to

keep it inside, to not share, to not get

help, to not do the kinds of things that

would lead us to recognize the epidemic.

How many people

have some form of trauma? Because when

we think of trauma, sometimes people

think of PTSD, soldiers coming back from

war.

So, how many people does this subject

speak to in some way? The numbers and

estimates vary, but it'd be hard to

imagine you wouldn't have roughly one in

five. I mean, likely you have more than

that. But if you look at, you know, data

across demographics and data for

occurrences of traumatic events and and

the impacts we see downstream of these

brain changes, we're talking about a

very significant portion of the

population. And then, if you think of

people who are either

experiencing the post-trauma effects

themselves, right? The changes to

themselves, or experiencing those

changes through someone close to them,

through someone they love, a parent, a

child, a significant other. Right now,

we're we're well over half the

population that will that will

experience a significant and negative

life impact from something that either

was with high likelihood avoidable or

treatable. In other words, change

for the worse that doesn't have to be

that way. And again, it's not just as if

just mental health, we're saying

something small. I mean, mental health

is how we interface with the world, but

it's our bodies, too. It's Is that

person going to get lupus? Is that

person going to have a heart attack or a

stroke? And how rapidly is that person

aging? So, we know that trauma, by this

definition that changes us because our

coping mechanisms are overwhelmed, makes

us age faster than our calendar age. So,

you could say, "Well, that person is 40

years old by the calendar, but they're

really 46." Right? "That person is 65,

but really 73." If you look at the aging

that occurs in us as a result of trauma.

So, if, you know, I say this in part to

to really speak to how like concrete and

real this is. So, something that happens

and changes you so that you are actually

older than your calendar age, closer to

death, right? Than the calendar might

suggest, it is is so real and so

tangible. And it's this is the effect of

trauma. A trauma I said. And modern

science knows this. Modern neurobiology,

modern psychiatry, the research around

us tells us this, but the things that we

know aren't always at the forefront of

our consciousness in society, which is a

reason I think it's so important to

spread the word about it.

Why does this matter so much to you?

I had a youngest brother who died by

suicide when he was 20 years old. I was

in my mid 20s, which which had

um

um just a a terrible effect on the

family structure and upon me. And I and

I felt the reflexive sense of of guilt

and shame without really being aware of

it. I hadn't felt that before. You know,

I hadn't felt like I couldn't be in the

world or make my way forward in the

world. And I started feeling very very

different about myself. And I started

behaving in ways that weren't healthy.

You know, they were very unhealthy.

Drinking too much, unhealthy friendships

and relationships, and real change in me

that I was fortunate to be able to get

help for. Um that really

brought to the surface how much had

changed after the trauma. That I felt

very different about myself in the

world. Like so cursed and maybe our

family was cursed, and I couldn't make

my way forward, and bad things were

always going to happen. And it was the

realization that like I'm really

different, and this is not okay. And it

wasn't like just grief, you know, in the

sense that sadness and loss, of course,

were were a huge part of that. But but

realizing also like I am different. And

you know, that had a very big

effect on me. Um

both the depression and the the the the

issues in him that weren't seen and

addressed that led to his suicide and

then the downstream effect on the rest

of us. And that led me to to leave. I

had a business career, and I went back

to college and took some pre-med classes

and went to medical school and then

became very interested in psychiatry and

and and brain function, both the

psychology of how we think and the the

brain biology that underpins how we

think. And I've been very much

fascinated

uh ever since. Did you

process and or deal with the loss of

your younger brother, Jonathan, by

suicide at the time?

No. No, at the at the time, I just went

inside. Like people didn't talk about

it, and we're overwhelmed, and you know,

we became less healthy and felt

different about the world, but there

wasn't an outlet

for talking about it. It just wasn't the

the how I had grown up. Like there

wasn't a way people would say, "Let's

check in. Like, how are you doing? And

maybe you should see someone." Like it

like it didn't happen. And and it took a

it took until I realized like I'm kind

of in trouble here. I need to get some

help to then, you know, I had an

insurance card and to look on the back

and say like, "Oh, maybe I should go

talk to someone." But that was a stretch

for me, and I felt even embarrassed

about doing that. Like I really didn't

understand neither what had happened and

nor how to help myself. And and then you

know, I went to someone, and you know, I

just remember just how amazing it was to

just have her tell me that, you know, I

wasn't

like I wasn't sick or crazy or or like

not going to be okay because I felt this

way that I helped normalize what I was

feeling and and helped me put some of it

into perspective and I realized like

well, that was very basic what was just

done for me and

you know, many many many people do not

get that and I almost didn't have it

myself and I was I was very struck by it

and by how much of a difference it made

to have a better understanding and get

some help. The impact it had on the rest

of your family. I was reading that your

mother was depressed for the rest of her

life almost because of

potentially because of that incident.

Mhm.

Yeah, and I think she was clearly

different afterwards, too and and was

much more isolated. Again, in hindsight,

it's so clear to see, but I think the

guilt and shame that she felt um

was was overwhelming and she didn't was

not able to get help, you know, no

matter how much encouragement. You know,

at some point I it was actually a

psychiatrist and I still couldn't you

know, couldn't get her to get help

because I think she was just felt so

ashamed and and

felt that help was inaccessible or that

it getting help was even more shameful.

And you know, the patterns changed. I

mean, there were still some happy times

in her life, but the whole tenor changed

and changed towards towards

progressively more depression and again,

it didn't have to be that way either,

but there weren't support resources for,

you know, mothers who lose a a child to

suicide and and my father who was more

extroverted you know, then just had more

natural support mechanisms and that's

what you see sometimes that that it

shouldn't be that one person does better

than the other because they just happen

to have different proclivities. You

know, but when we're not really paying

attention to this and we're just kind of

running forward, you know, and trampling

people then maybe the person who's a

little more introverted in a situation

like that a little more inclined to be

self-blaming, you know, like that's the

person who doesn't do okay and you know,

and my mother didn't and and died I

think much younger than she should have

of of cancer, but this kind of trauma

predisposes to the immune system not

functioning as it should and I can't say

that this trauma caused her early death

by cancer, but but certainly there there

a lot of scientific reasons to think

that

um

that it was likely a factor

in it and again, unless we're aware of

like what trauma is and what it's doing

to us that like we can prevent it. We

can identify it and treat it. These

changes to us don't have to stay the

same. Like the person who's blaming

themselves and ashamed and depressed

doesn't have to stay that way. The

person who is abusing a substance to try

and cope or to try and kill themselves

because they feel so bad it doesn't have

to be

living like that. Like we really and

truly can make change. The person who

has an autoimmune disease or heart

disease or rheumatoid arthritis that's

inflamed after the trauma. Like

everything is worse after the trauma

doesn't have to be medically

ill like that. Like it's the the message

I'm bringing is is one based in hard

science and it's one that has a real

message of change that it's not an

esoteric principle what we can and

should be healthier. Even you think

about more than 50% of complaints

brought to physical medicine doctors

that come from a mental health

perspective. I mean, how much of that is

based in trauma? It's the the majority

of what is ailing us and the numbers

actually do tell us that.

At the top of this conversation you

referred to aging and the impact that

trauma has on aging. Mhm. How does that

work? So, trauma makes me older? Mhm.

There's there are there's cellular

mechanisms in us, you know, people often

talk about telomeres which is one aspect

that change as we grow older cuz we're

very interested in figuring out like why

do we grow older? Right? So, there are

processes in us that sort of mark time

and that change across the aging process

of humans. Now, I mean, we don't

understand everything about this. If we

did, we could change it and we'll live

much much much longer, but we're trying

to understand about it and and I think

science has made a lot of very

significant headway in understanding and

part of that understanding is the

biological age of a person

is different from the calendar age. So,

if you you know, an example would be if

you took two identical twins at birth

and you know, one of them is able to

live in pretty good circumstances and

free of trauma and you know, has a

pretty good life going and the other

person lives in a way that has has

privation and a lot of trauma, maybe

direct physical assault or seeming seen

as less than denigrated by society. It's

a theoretical example, but the idea

would be you you go follow them 30, 40,

50 years later and you you find two

people who are not the same age anymore.

Right? The person who had the better

life if they're 40, well, they're 40 and

if you match up cellular aging

mechanisms and again, we don't know how

close a person is to death, but the

aging mechanisms are telling us how far

along our path we are so to speak. They

say, okay, that kind of matches with

being that person's age, but then you

see the person who has been through so

much trauma, the presumption here being

there are the brain changes of trauma,

there's a post-trauma syndrome. I that

that person is going to actually be

older in terms of how far they have

traversed down that path of the

machinery in them running itself forward

than what the calendar tells you.

Trying to figure out why and how that's

happening.

What is the mechanism that's causing

them to apparently accelerate in age?

So, the the less healthy environment

within the person. So, some of that is

is likely say the signaling molecules

that we we talk about is just not as you

know, the bloodstream isn't as as clean

and healthy and you know, running in as

lockstep a fashion as we might want, but

there are inflammatory signaling markers

and you know, that impacts cellular

function and cells are more likely to

die earlier than they might otherwise

and and elements of neurotransmission

and anxiety and tension states within

us. You know, it's it's really

environmental. One you know, one set of

aging machinery is in a healthy

environment and the other isn't, so it's

going to deteriorate more quickly. I

mean, it's it's one way of kind of

trying to capture that. The environment

is is very different in those two

people. So, how what is functioning in

that environment ages is going to

change. Like having a car maybe in an in

a

a nice warm dry environment, you know,

versus having a car where you know,

there's snow and ice 6 months of the

year and then it's terribly hot the

other 6 months. You know, it's that it's

going to be different. It's going to age

differently so to speak. Right? If you

go look at those two cars 10 years later

and to some extent

it's like that in us, too.

Death, disease and trauma.

A 2021 study by the British Medical

Journal found that adults who

experienced sexual abuse by the age of

16 have 2.6 times

the chance of dying in middle age than

those who didn't experience it.

It's

not commonly believed that trauma can

result in disease like physical disease

directly, but you argue that it can and

you also talk about how it can result in

new autoimmune disorders, things like

arthritis

um

Crohn's disease Crohn's disease,

ulcerative colitis, Parkinson's disease

probably has an autoimmune component.

We're learning that much much more

is autoimmune. So,

Do you believe that trauma is the

underlying reason behind many diseases

that lead to early death? Absolutely.

And think about what you just read. Can

can we take a look at that again? Like I

think what you just read is

absolutely momentous. So, think about

that. Sexual assault in the teen years

like

leads to a two and a half fold increase

in death risk.

That's staggering. What's causing that?

The whole cascade from the biological to

the behavioral. So,

gene transcription is changed. Healthier

genes are more likely to be off.

Unhealthier genes are more likely to be

on. That's not good for our blood

vessels. That's not good for heart

disease or possibility of having a

stroke and the immune system is more

activated and more likely to attack

itself and some of the mechanisms within

us that are protective against cancers

for example are less likely to function.

All of those things change biologically,

neurotransmission, endocrine function,

signaling markers in the bloodstream.

All of that is changing and at the same

time behaviors are changing. Higher

risks of depression, higher risks of

addiction, higher risks of impulsive

behaviors, risk-taking behaviors. You

have to put a lot of things together

before you get a death risk that is two

and a half times higher, but that's how

we get there because it does put a lot

of things together from the genes all

the way through to complex risky

behavioral taking. Do you think there's

anything killing more people than

trauma?

Fundamentally?

[sighs]

Not if we look for root cause. I've seen

many many things that kill people and I

I wrote about this in the book people

that I was taking care of who at times

died and I was always so struck by what

the death certificate said versus why

they had really died. You know, so the

death certificate might have said car

accident. Okay, I

understand that, but why was that person

driving 120 miles an hour in bad

conditions or why were they being so

reckless? Why they had five car

accidents? I know that's the trauma.

Right? Well, well, it's

heart attack. Why did that person have a

heart attack when they were

62? They didn't have huge risk factors

from other any way except the trauma and

its impact and

so if we're looking at root cause

analysis of what is hurting us,

what is hurting our quality of life,

what is hurting the quality of life of

people that we love and what is killing

us, I think that need we know more than

even just that.

And and there's so much we could we

could pile the information a mile high

that supports that piece of information

which I think is quite staggering. What

are the different types of trauma? Are

there sort of different categorizations

of of trauma from like small to big or

If we're if we're using the definition

that trauma is anything that overwhelms

our coping mechanisms, so so there there

are changes in the brain when our coping

mechanisms are overwhelmed and on the

other side of that our brains are

different. So that's the biological

definition. Then we would look at well,

how how do we how do we get there,

right? And and we it breaks down into

three categories that are acute,

chronic, or vicarious. So the acute

trauma is how we've traditionally seen

trauma. So if you think about the idea

that people were shell-shocked after

World War I,

right? That was acute trauma, combat

trauma. So our traditions of looking at

trauma come from acute trauma and it's

just more evident, you know, after

someone dies or there's an injury or

there's a car accident, like you know,

we can see that oh, okay, gosh, that

could what makes some difference in the

in the person, like we can kind of get

that and sometimes we can see the change

in the person from before and after. So

we have tended to equate

trauma and post-trauma syndromes, like

what happens to us after those changes

in the brain are now with us, to acute

trauma. But but again, it's not a soft

definition. It's based on do those

changes in the brain happen in other

ways? And the answer to that is yes,

that if a person is seen as less than,

for example, in a society for whatever

reason across time or even within a

household, a person is being abused, in

a household, a child is being neglected,

or a child is being emotionally or

physically abused.

at school? Sure, bullied at school,

absolutely. Right, this over So so

nothing happens all at once, right? But

that brain changes just the same. So

it's a scientific definition of

traumatic change and it is true in

situations of chronic trauma just as it

is in acute trauma. Now, it doesn't mean

all acute traumas or all chronic traumas

make these changes in the brain. And

then the vicarious, so the third

category there would be vicarious

trauma, which means like human beings

are empathetic, right? I mean, thank

thank goodness, right? That's how all

goodness comes in the world through our

ability to have empathetic connection,

but that also means that our trauma can

communicate from one to another. And

again, it's not a soft concept, so

people who are very much involved in

other people's trauma, so in health care

settings, sometimes in in journalism

settings, just in intimate home settings

and just spending a lot of time with the

news, right? Can become traumatized and

have the changes in the brain that look

the same as the person who lost two

family members in the car accident. So

it is true that vicarious trauma can

change us in just the same way. The the

modern field acknowledges that if it's

in the context of professional

endeavors, which actually makes no

sense, right? Like what we're talking

about are brain changes and brain

changes can come through acute trauma,

chronic trauma, or vicarious trauma

because of our ability to have

empathetic connection and compassion

with other humans. I want to make sure

that I've nailed this before we move on.

So the acute trauma is I get it, it's

the the big events, it's the going to

war, it's the car accident, big events

that happen typically in an instant.

Mhm. Typically. Chronic trauma, this is

things like racism, sexism, bullying

that happen over a long period of time,

gradually, that make you often feel less

than Right.

than other people. And the vicarious

trauma is the trauma that as you say,

you get from empathy. So feeling someone

else's pain, feeling someone else's

trauma Yes. and it becomes your own.

Yes. Okay.

Yes. And they can all lead us to the

same brain changes. But people have

different levels of susceptibility,

right? So one person may have three big

acute traumas and that person's brain is

still doing okay, right? It's not

changed towards greater vigilance,

right? It's not changed towards greater

inflammation in their blood vessels,

then, you know,

another person could have one incident

that might seem more mild than the other

three, the person and that person can

then have brain changes. So part of this

is who are we genetically, how are we

built, what kind of life experience have

we had, especially early life

experience, how susceptible are we to

one thing versus another? And then this

idea of the multiple hit hypothesis that

I could have a number of traumas and

then on a certain trauma that might be

even mild compared to the ones that came

before it, now it makes the changes.

What is that hypothesis? So the multiple

hit, which which which says that this

idea that what what doesn't kill us

makes us stronger

is completely wrong, I mean, in in

absolutely every way. What what doesn't

kill us often makes us weaker, right?

And that's why we have to be attentive

to what hurts us but doesn't kill us so

that we don't get weaker, we get

stronger. But what can happen is we can

become more susceptible to the more

likely that the next trauma, if we

experience one, will then create the

brain changes.

Cuz I have I've often wondered, I'm

the youngest of four kids. We all grew

up in the same household. We experienced

a variety of different traumas in my

opinion. Much of it was chronic, but

again, being the only black family in an

all white area, all these kinds of

things. But I thing I've always

reflected on is for some reason, I think

I experienced it much more, the trauma

of that, than my older siblings.

Yes. And I've pondered whether that's

because of the timeline. Being the

youngest, it was worse in the later

years. So I I think my hypothesis has

been that I experienced it more than my

siblings. Mhm. And I think I've embodied

the shame a lot more than my siblings

have, yet we both went through the same

thing. So Mhm. for whatever reason, I'm

like really like I'm a workaholic and

I'm exceptionally driven, not that my

siblings are, but I'm obsessed in a way

that's probably not completely healthy.

Mhm. And I look at my siblings and I go,

they're not [ __ ] up in the same way

that I am, but we all went through the

same thing. Part of what you're pointing

out is that the the variables of life

matter, right? So if circumstances are

different, say for one child in

formative years than for another,

the those children could be affected

differently, like economic

circumstances. So some of it

may be and and probably is impacted by

the things that you're saying, but there

probably are almost surely other

factors, too. This kind of nature and

nurture, that people have what sometimes

gets called different levels of

attunement of the of the emotional

compass. So you know, some people are

very sensitive and sensitized to things

and very aware of what's going on around

them and and aware of their own feeling

states. You know, and other people can

kind of go through life and, you know,

emotionally buffeting things can happen,

but they kind of keep going, you know,

and and look, there pros and cons to

both of those ways of being, but the

person with the sort of more finely

attuned emotional compass is the person

who's likely to to register more things

that are negative, like things like

subtle expressions of prejudice, right?

That that someone with a less attuned

compass may just, you know, kind of not

see that or just it doesn't make it, you

know, into their conscious awareness,

whereas someone else who would be very

attuned might see a lot of those things.

So it's this part, like what is the

nature, like who is the person, right?

And then what is the nurture, meaning

like what are the variables, you know,

that that that seed sort of falls into

as we go through life. You must have

seen this a lot in your practice where

an individual went through a really

traumatic early event Mhm. and you've

got the person in your practice sat in

front of you that is an alcoholic, they

are

experiencing sort of suicidal thoughts,

but then when you look at the rest of

the family, the family are just doing

fine.

To some whatever that means, fine, but

Right. Well, one of the things to look

at is the rest of the family doing fine

cuz sometimes what it seems like on the

outside is not true on the inside.

And then we do think about genetics,

especially around alcoholism. There are

um we don't understand all of it, of

course, but but there are genetic

factors that can be very impactful.

Then we'll look at personality

structure, you know, is that person

built to sort of internalize externalize

blame, you know, so why alcohol for this

person and not for someone else? How

much is nature or nurture and how much

may be formative? It may be that, for

example, that person was in social

circumstances, just real example that

happens with some frequency, is they

middle late teens where alcohol was

accepted as a way of coping, right? And

and maybe other people in the family

weren't. The circumstances were just

different. The way they went to school

was different. Whatever and and they

didn't have it modeled for them that

this is how they cope. So maybe there

genetic factors that that push

alcoholism. Maybe there are social

factors, right? That it was modeled for

that person. So you know, you can put

those things together and which is why

and we follow patterns and there's a

science underlying all of this, but we

have to look at who is that person,

right? You have to look at

you know, the the family history, so the

genetics that may have been passed on

and what does that seem like may be the

case in the person. How can you be

informed by that? And what were their

formative life experiences? And you

start we start to

build a picture of what's going on

inside of us so that we can understand

and change by looking at our history,

which is why mental health doesn't often

do this. You know, it takes an inventory

of your symptoms now to reflexively

prescribe a medicine, right? So we need

to understand ourselves if we're going

to understand whether trauma is

afflicting us, how it's afflicting us,

how we can prevent it, how we can treat

it if it's there. And and I think that

means accepting that this is real and

this is real science, which which

actually when you were talking, it made

me think of an example. So if I say a an

example to the science of it, one one of

the earlier studies and I forget exactly

how many years ago this was, but 15 or

20 years, maybe, was looking at

immigrants. I believe they were

immigrants from Somalia to Holland. I

think I'm remembering that correctly.

And and so the incidence of

schizophrenia in the human population is

about 1% across the human population.

But when stressors are higher, right? It

they can predispose people to to having

to coming down to having the syndrome of

schizophrenia. So it's about 1% of the

population, but it's not evenly

distributed. If there are, you know,

people in sort of pressure cooker

environment, so to speak, become more

susceptible. And so they looked at at

immigrants who integrated into the

community in Holland versus immigrants

who lived in primarily immigrant

communities. And the incidence of

schizophrenia was higher in the people

who had integrated.

Right? So the thought is, and again

there've been subsequent studies and we

don't know for sure, but this the the

when you kind of look at that and say,

"What what is that?" is the feeling of

otherness, right? Is is different trying

to integrate into a society that was

looking at, you know, not everyone in

that society, of course, but there was a

much more pervasive sense of otherness

when people were integrating than then

when they were living in the communities

where food and dress and like the the

day-to-day of life was normalized.

What's otherness? I'm mostly sort of

cost of otherness.

I think otherness in the way I'm

defining is a sense of difference in a

way that's not good.

Right? A sense of difference in a way

that

involves either

being seen as less than, and again

sometimes it can be over prejudice, but

it can be also stratification of

opportunity. You know, just to seeing

that, okay, like in some way I'm not on

an equal I don't feel on an equal

footing

here, right? And then that there's a

there's can be a sense of isolation

there that that builds that the sense of

otherness then say building inside the

person, right? The person doesn't feel

quite as safe, right? It doesn't feel

quite as validated cuz you know, when

we're especially when we're young, we

look around us to see what's normal. And

if, you know, people are looking,

talking, dressing like us, like we just

feel validated in ways that we might not

feel if we see that we are different,

especially if the difference isn't

embraced, right? And we see this across

immigrant communities who you at some

point integrate, right? But initially

people will tend more to stay together

because there's there's a sense of

validation in the community. Um so then

the children often then will will

integrate, right? Which is why it's such

an interesting study to look at people

who were first generation immigrants who

would be likely to feel very strongly,

you know, whether they were integrated

or whether they were subsequent

generations, right? They're the

generation that just come from the home

culture that either they could still

sort of live in or

live in a new culture and not that

everyone felt a pervasive sense of

otherness, but there's more of that

sense of otherness. And the fact that

that would change susceptibility

to an illness that otherwise is

distributes itself across the

population, I think is a very profound

you know, marker of scientific proof

upon the things we don't pay attention

to as much, you know, subtle prejudices,

discriminations, whatever they may be

that are in our society that we kind of

look the other way and don't see that

we're really harming people who then can

come to the they come to the adult phase

of life in in a place where we have

marginalized them and we've we've made

things different inside of them that

makes it harder to make their way in the

world. And I think we overlook very much

whether it's bullying, many many things

that can be based upon what can make

people feel less than, but the effect of

it is is seen in actual brain biology.

And like we know this. We've known this

for a long time, but

in some ways I see that we're more

fragmented and pushing more towards

these experiences of otherness or

experiences of vulnerability and lack of

safety that push people towards the the

the chronic aspects of of traumatic

brain change. When we think about

trauma, we often focus on childhood. But

what you're saying now with this study

of the Somalis that emigrated to Europe,

um presumably those were adults.

Yes, so the the highest incidence of

schizophrenia is in people who are in

young adulthood. Yeah. So so we're not

seeing changes in people who are already

deep into adulthood, but the but the the

changes that we're seeing is in the sort

of transition to it to adulthood, which

honors both that

yes, we are much more impressionable in

all sorts of ways including how our

brains are forming when we are younger.

So these so these are people still their

brains still have enough formative The

idea is the thought would be they have

enough formative processes going on in

their brains that the brains can be

changed by the trauma. But when we talk

about these three types of trauma, the

acute, chronic, and vicarious, can you

experience these types of trauma in any

age, phase, chapter of life? Yes. The

earlier in the the lifespan, the the

more impactful. Okay. Yes, absolutely,

which is why childhood trauma is so

important. My in the book I interview

Darren Richer, who's a psychiatrist at

Stanford, and Stephanie von Gutenburg,

who's a child wellness advocate, because

we're talking about trauma from both

ends of the spectrum. So that the

chapter that's the interview with

Stephanie von Gutenburg talks about how

childhood trauma so deeply impacts the

the sense of self of the child. Like

things that we know, but I dedicate a

chapter to it because childhood trauma

is so tremendously

impactful. And again we don't pay enough

attention to helping children who are

traumatized and to to to projecting

ahead to the increased burdens of

illness and decreased role performance

and all the awful things that happen. So

so childhood trauma is one thing. On the

other end of the spectrum, Dr. Richer's

work has highlighted the fact that when

people are traumatized, they are changed

in ways that changes subsequent

generations. So if we're talking about

childhood trauma, we can talk about

traumatized children. We can also talk

about traumatized adults

whose trauma changes

their children even if their children

are not born until years later. How do

we know

that trauma

can and is being passed on? What is the

best evidence we have to support that?

So the the field of epigenetics, which

has really come to the So so epi

epigenetics really come to the forefront

in the last

two to three decades, which is the

understanding that our life experiences

can change the expression of our genes.

So so

you or I may have a gene that is active

now because we inherited an active gene,

for example. And then maybe that gene is

producing something it's it's helping us

in some way, bolstering mood, decreasing

anxiety. Then something can happen,

something can change in us that turns

off the expression of that gene. Or

turns on the expression of another gene.

So then even though you have that gene,

you don't have the benefit of it because

the gene has been turned off. And and

this is a very

I mean it's a very revolutionary

understanding that it's not just, well,

your genes are your genes. You know, we

could look when sperm and egg come

together, well, that's telling us what's

going on. And if we could understand

that fully, we would see, oh, here's the

array of genes that are active and the

array of genes that are not active. But

like that's not the story, right? That's

just part of the story. The the the

story continues that you that one's

experiences of life changes how those

genes function, which ones are on, which

ones are off, and how they get passed

along. So if the parent is not

traumatized, the parent may pass along

the active gene for something positive,

say, to the child. If the child then is

traumatized, the child may pass on that

gene without it being expressed. So it's

as if the gene isn't passed on.

So if you you think about that, it's

just amazing that our genetics in the

sense of what's actually going on in us

is not just the nature of what genes did

we get. It's the nurture, how has what

has happened to us affected the

expression of those genes.

There's one study that I I read about

which says scientists at Emory

University in Atlanta trained male mice

to fear the smell of cherry blossom,

shocking them whenever they smelled it.

So the mice got to the point where they

shuddered when they smelled it even when

they were weren't even being shocked. Um

the and

I'm guessing the children then had the

the same reaction. I mean, I guess

that's what the study concludes. But

also the

the children of Holocaust survivors are

another example of how trauma can be

passed on because Yes. Yes. It's hard to

think of a much more traumatic event

than being involved in the Holocaust.

Right. And for a long time the thought

was that the the reason that children of

Holocaust survivors had higher levels of

anxiety and of anxiety spectrum

illnesses was because of anxious

parenting that understandably that the

parents had a much more sense of

vulnerability, you know, so so across

the population they were they were more

anxious and they were raising the

children with more anxiety. And what we

have have learned is that that the

experiential aspect is part of it, but

that exactly what you and I are talking

about is part of it, too, because the

the experience of what they went through

changed genetic expression in the

children.

Right? So that's that's

just a sea change in understanding that

the the genes of the parents, the

genetic expression of the parents, and

the genetic expression that they pass

along to their children is changed by

the Holocaust experience itself. With

this understanding of epigenetics, do

you in your practice then consider

deeply what someone's parents went

through in their life and how that might

have changed someone's sort of genetic

expression that sat in front of you in

your practice?

Sure. Sure, I I think we all deserve, so

to speak, to to

think about our life narrative, right?

And and and so many of us don't. I if

we're trying to help ourselves, you

know, whether someone listening to this

like feels that they're depressed or

that they they don't have any mental

health issue, but they want to

understand themselves better, it's like

think about a narrative of okay, where

Well, let me start with like where have

I come from and like who came before me

and And then wait, this happened and

then that happened and And when we build

a narrative, it's remarkable how much we

can come to understand about ourselves

cuz often we don't do that. Like we have

isolated pieces of information about

ourselves, but we don't knit it all

together and and it's really remarkable

what can happen, what can be elucidated

by doing that. So, absolutely yes, just

for the the general understanding of the

person and also to understand what did

the parents

go through, you know, what what

experiences did they have, how might

that impact this person and you might

then ask questions of

let's say the family situation changed,

you know, between say

older siblings and younger siblings,

right? Then by learning about that

history and learning about older

siblings versus younger siblings and the

parents, I mean, think of how much you

learn then not just about

the person's experiences growing up, but

but just about the the biological

aspects of how were the parents

functioning, how did it impact the

children and what were the situations,

how were the children similar or

different? There's so much we can learn

from that.

You likened trauma to a virus. It's a

very interesting way for us to start

thinking about trauma because we seem to

think of it at least I did as being sort

of isolated to the person, but your idea

that it somewhat has a contagion to it

and that we can spread it

vicariously to other people that are

around us, but also

down through the family tree via our

epigenetics and via our our genes,

makes you kind of

understand both the importance of

treating it, but Yeah, I've just never

heard anyone describe it as a virus

before.

Yeah.

It It'll because

there's a reflexive guilt and shame to

trauma and our society doesn't recognize

it. It often gets hidden inside the

person, right? But when it's hidden

inside the person, it's still spinning

off symptoms. So, I think the best

analogy to use here is of an abscess in

the body. So, an abscess is a walled-off

area of infection in the body and it's

good that the infection is walled off

because if if it weren't it could be

fatal, right? So, it's good that it's

walled off, but the body is still aware

that it's there and it's still spinning

off symptoms because it's there. So, for

example, a person might have an

intermittent low-grade fever or just

feel kind of jittery or you know,

they're sweating and they're not

sleeping well, right? So, there are

pervasive symptoms that are impacting

this person, but it's not obvious that

the abscess is there,

right? So, what often happens in general

medicine is person is having

non-specific symptoms, you know, people

go looking, scan, they see oh, there's

an abscess there, right? Once we know

that, then we might have an

understanding for why that person just

never feels good, right? They always

feel lethargic or they never feel

comfortable. We know there's something

there now and we can go in and fix it,

right? And it involves, you know,

there's a surgical process, right? So,

something has to happen that's not a fun

thing, right? You go through surgery and

recovery. Now the abscess is gone. So, I

think the the example of the abscess in

the body is is a very good way to

understand what trauma does to us in the

mind. So, if we shove it down inside of

us, there's reflexive guilt and shame,

society isn't helping us take a look at

it. Now it's there inside of us, it's

going to spin off symptoms. And those

symptoms aren't always symptoms that

make say one person hurtful to another.

They They They may not. That person may

be very very vigilant and and just kind

as can be to to someone else, but across

the population, those symptoms inside of

us are not good. So, they give us

shorter tempers, right? We're more

likely we're more anxious, so we may be

more

quick to anger or we're less functional

in the world around us because of

depression, anxiety, sleep problems,

right? We can be more impulsive. Like it

works against us being in the world as

best we can be. Isn't that Isn't that

what you refer to as post-trauma

syndromes? Is that a similar thing?

Yeah, yes, post-trauma syndromes are

ways in which we can recognize the

changes in ourselves. So, higher levels

of anxiety, for example, lower levels of

mood, right? Um different changes in

sleep, uh physical health changes, um

and then changes in just how comfortable

we feel

in the world, right? So, what we'll see

is changes in behaviors that are driven

by just feeling differently in the

world. So, we have a we're in a

different self states, we have different

behaviors. The syndromes can do all

sorts of different things to us from

mood, anxiety, sleep, behavioral change.

So, someone who might want to find a

relationship partner, you know, stops

going to places where they could meet

someone, right? So, we we change our

behaviors. This is what shows us that

there is a post-trauma syndrome. That's

how we know we're traumatized.

Effectively cuz that's what I'm trying

to figure out like people be listening

to this now and hearing you talk about

these different types of trauma, what

are the sort of telltale signs? I'm

assuming it's this, that I am

traumatized. Right. Yeah, this is what

we're looking for, right? So, so someone

might present with

uh that person is depressed now and they

weren't before. That person is having

panic attacks and they weren't before.

That person is using alcohol to soothe

and they weren't before because in

medicine we look at just the surface,

right? What we want to look at is like

oh, why are you here? Oh, you're here

because you're drinking too much. Let's

talk about how you can drink less.

You're here because you're depressed.

Well, can we give you a depression

medicine, right? So, then we're not

looking at like why? Right? Why are you

depressed? I mean, some people

biologically will become depressed, you

know, no matter what, even when things

are going very very well, but this isn't

the majority, right? Most most of us if

we're depressed, there are likely

factors. Like so, we should be curious.

Why is that person depressed? Why is

that person having panic attacks? Why is

that person changed their behaviors,

right? And so, now if we get curious, we

get curious about the person, then we're

going to figure

we're going to figure out things we

wouldn't have before, right? So, if a

person gets depressed because everyone

in their family gets depressed every 9

to 12 months, no matter what, like okay,

let's let's come at that biologically.

We don't that that doesn't necessarily

map to trauma, right? But but if we

start looking at that person being

depressed, we see that

they kind of started getting depressed,

you know, a couple of years ago around

the time their sleep started being

a little bit different and you know,

they started behaving differently and

they you know, they didn't spend as much

time with family or then you start

getting more curious and and you start

learning oh, you know, there's something

happened then, right? Again, with acute

traumas it's easiest to see, but when

you look for the whole picture of like

might there be a post-trauma syndrome

going on here, you know, maybe that

person who's depressed and is drinking

too much started drinking too much when

their mood started decreasing after the

trauma or maybe they started drinking

after the trauma and it's driving their

mood down. Like again, it's not always

this, but we're never going to know and

understand unless we're curious. Like

this is how we trace to the roots of it

and this is how we get back to the

narrative, right? Of of what is going on

inside of me and have I changed, right?

And then the idea we started talking

about how the changes in behavior of the

post-trauma syndrome are the changes

that that make trauma like like a virus,

right? Because we start behaving

differently and for some people that is

the the the their mood isn't good and

it's not as healthy to be raised by a

parent who's depressed,

right? So, that can be a way in which

the virus of trauma gets passed along to

the next generation. Or maybe that

person is drinking or using a drug to

cope and that doesn't make for the best

parenting. That's how the virus of

trauma gets passed down

to the next generation or there are

times when when a reaction to trauma to

the feeling of disempowerment can be

aggression, right? Envious, aggressive

behavior. So, so not all abusive

children comes through the lens of

trauma, but a lot of it does. I'm

interested as well in the subtle

symptoms of trauma. You know, we've

talked about some of the big picture

stuff, which is like suicidality, you

know, becoming an alcoholic or all those

kinds of things, but the subtle ways

that trauma shows up in everyday life. I

was I Some of them I was hypothesizing

over are things like

phone addiction, being addicted to your

phone or video game addictions, these

kind of things that I think

maybe originate from the sort of more

chronic traumas, but are less easy to

spot. Right. Right. Yeah, I think the

key to all of this is curiosity, right?

So, let's say someone is like say

addicted to their phone. Okay, maybe

that's because phones are addictive and

the person has just spent too much time

on their phone, maybe, right? But

addiction mechanisms in human beings are

similar. Like it's the same machinery

across addictions, right? And and often

times addictive behavior is meant as an

escape from something or to soothe

against something or even to self-punish

because of something. So, addictive

behaviors that's similar brain

machinery, whether it's cocaine, it's

alcohol, it's brownies, it's a

telephone, it's sex, it's exercise. I

mean, there are things that people do in

addictive ways as routes of unhealthy

coping. So, so if we get curious, why

Again, why the drug, why the phone

addiction, why the things that might

seem more subtle

um and maybe are more subtle, but we

should scratch on the surface of them to

to try and understand if they mean

something. Is that phone addiction the

14th addictive behavior in a row, right?

Because that person has sort of

particularly adapted addictive machinery

inside of them and they're trying to

escape from something. Like that doesn't

happen all the time, but it is not

untrue that when you scratch the surface

of that, you might learn about an

episode of sexual abuse that happened

when the person was a child. Like these

are real examples, right? And that the

person isn't built to run from things

through addiction. And maybe they're

saying things about their own character

that's negative. They're saying negative

things about themselves and they feel

disempowered and they're disempowering

themselves. But if you go look at that

narrative, you know, that that person

that might have a dialogue running over

and over again in their head of shame

about something that happened 30, 40

years ago. Like,

this is not uncommon. So, we need to be

curious and we need to scratch on the

surface of things, whether they're

really big things or they're subtle

things. Like, which is why a life

narrative is so important. If you think

about changes like

after trauma that changes the brain, we

respond differently when we see a new

face. So, so without the trauma, it's

I'm simplifying a little bit, but you

see a new face we might be curious.

Like, oh, like

you know, could we could he be a friend?

Or if someone's romantically interested,

like, oh, my might that person like me?

Or might they not? People are interested

and curious. Whereas after trauma,

there's a there's a difference of

feeling a little bit on the back foot.

So, people tend less to look up and

engage and more to look away or to more

have negative thoughts. So, you don't

That person doesn't like me. You know,

instead of something that might be more

constructive. How do they test for this?

Is there a test that able to be done to

see if someone after trauma has like a

different set of sunglasses that they

view the world with? Mhm. Yes.

Yeah, there's a there test from from the

brain biology

all the way through to to very clever

psychological experiments. Like, we can

see all of this. And it's these these

signs we should be looking for in

ourselves. Right? Because it is very

obvious if someone who always was an

extrovert now won't leave the house.

Right? Like, we can tell something's

wrong and someone's probably going to

come ask something, right? But if we

just change in these more subtle ways

where we're just less interactive and,

you know, people notice their friends a

little bit different and less outgoing.

It's these things that, as you're

saying, the subtle ones, the subtle

signs and the nuances are often

very impactful and indicative of other

things going on under the surface, you

know, that can bring even greater

problems.

On the subject of soothing that you were

talking about a second ago, there's this

quote that you say in your book, "Trauma

promotes pain, pain increases suffering,

and suffering makes us desperate to

soothe our pain."

Whatever form it takes. Sadly, we're

seeing the terrible cycle play out on a

larger societal level

with the opiate epidemic.

Yes. This idea of soothing, we will find

ways to soothe ourselves.

And some of those ways that we find to

soothe ourselves become destructive in

and of themselves. And it almost makes

me think that like our

sometimes our attempt, we think of like

alcoholism typically as people that are

self-destructing, but when you

understand

the soothing component of drinking

alcohol, it actually is them trying to

not self-destruct, not destroy

themselves, but to take care of

themselves Right.

in a weird way?

If we're under huge amounts of distress,

our perspective of the world narrows,

right? Very, very dramatically. If

there's an elephant standing on my foot,

I only have one thing I'm guessing I

would think about, which is the elephant

not standing on my foot anymore, right?

So, when we're under tremendous stress

and strain, right? Something that

soothes us in the short term, right?

Becomes acceptable because there's a

desperation in us that has us focused on

the short term. Like, I know that may

know that's not good in the long term,

but I'm just trying to get through

today.

Right? And and it's this

lack of perspective in the world and the

society around us

that if we're not recognizing what

trauma does to us or can it that it can

drive us to places of desperation, then

is it any wonder that short-term

soothing will have a big appeal to us?

And that could be soothe soothing

through excess eating. And now, you

know, that person is overweight and has

diabetes and wants to be healthier, but

like doesn't really feel that they can

stop and ping-pongs back on different

diets. And, you know, what they're

really doing is they learned

self-soothing with food in a way that

that was, you know, in the context of

really feeling some sense of despair or

desperation. The same way that person

may have learned that, oh, alcohol

soothes. Now, again, there's there are

genetic factors and there there are all

sorts of factors that come into play,

too, but unhealthy coping mechanisms are

beckoning to us

all the time, which is why, you know, I

did a lot of treatment of of opiates and

opiate dependence

over a number of years. And you know,

it's just outrageous to me that these

these are the most powerful psychoactive

medicines on Earth, right? Opiates.

Like, they soothe psychic distress.

Like, you know, feeling not good

mentally inside of us very, very rapidly

and effectively and almost immediately

start building tolerance and danger,

right? But I had no education and

training around opiates as psychoactive

medicines. So, so here we are in a

society that's so

is under appreciating trauma and and

where people are are at in a sense of

isolation or otherness or desperation in

so many facets of our society. And then

we start handing them the most powerful

short-term soothing mechanism with the

absolute highest risk of long-term

danger and death. And then we're

surprised that

how many tens of thousands of people die

each year from prescribed

opiates.

What kind of opiates have people being

prescribed?

So, how the opiate epidemic really began

was with opiates in pill form.

So, so

that they would be prescribed, say, for

for conditions of pain, but conditions

of pain that were more chronic

conditions or conditions not so amenable

to opiates. So, if you come out of

surgery, an opiate is a great idea,

right? Like, there's a lot of pain that

needs medicine to soothe that pain until

the pain decreases. But it's judicious

use of a very powerful medicine in high

acuity circumstances. What we started

trying to do, and part of this was, you

know, we know there's a whole story

behind the politics and the business of

this, was to say, "Well, people

shouldn't be in pain, so there's a

short-term solution." Right? No one

should be in pain, we'll give them

pills. Right? And opiates do not work in

those situations. They soothe a lot

early on, but they rapidly build

tolerance, addiction,

they suppress breathing drive. So, so we

started doling out opiate pills with the

idea that we're treating pain and isn't

that good, but with an absolute

inattention to the immense risks of

that. And I think it fits with the

short-term view of,

you know, of relieving all pain. Like,

we're human beings, we can't relieve all

of our pain, right? Sometimes what there

is to do is to work hard to mitigate

pain. And that might be that might be

pain, you know, from a mental health

perspective, it might be pain from a

physical health perspective. This idea

that a pill is going to fix everything

and now everyone has pain pills and

won't be in pain, you know, has resulted

in hundreds of thousands of deaths in

this country alone from prescribed

opiates. You know, let alone illicit

opiates. So, there's the short-term

thinking on the part of our society that

then almost lures people into the the

seduction of the short-term soothing,

right? You feel miserable and you want

things to be better, take this pill, now

you're seduced and addicted and at huge

risk. And, you know, we've let that

happen.

For us to know how to treat trauma, we

have to understand the physiological

consequences of it. How does trauma

change our brain? When we look at brain

scans, what do we see in a traumatized

person?

Brain scan data is more complicated and

harder to interpret. You can see

different patterns in the brain. We're

not at the point where brain scan

science can really can pinpoint. Right?

But what we do see is parts of the brain

that are sort of inflamed, so to speak,

by trauma. So, so the amygdala and

pathways around the amygdala, which is a

part of the brain that gets called

sometimes Grand Central Station for

negative emotion, right? We see that

pathways involving this part of the

brain become more prominent. Right? So,

we we see changes in brain connectivity.

Right? Because how our brains function

is by communicating from one place to

another. They function through

connectivity and which pathways are more

prominent. So, what we see then is

pathways that are involved in trust,

say, and feeling a sense of safety are

less prominent. Pathways that are more

activated when we feel less safe and

more vigilant or more activated. And

then we see the climate, so to speak, in

the brain change in a way that's less

healthy. And you may also see specific

aspects of a post-trauma syndrome. So,

so mood regulation areas are not

functioning as well because now there's

depression intruding. So, we see

patterns in the brain that show us this

change, although the science hasn't come

far enough to to pinpoint like at some

point we'll be able to do with much

greater accuracy.

And I've heard you talk about how that

creates cognitive blind spots, so blind

spots in our brain following a traumatic

event. What do you mean by cognitive

blind spots and what's the the harm or

risk of that? Right. So, a cognitive

blind spot can occur when we take a

lesson inside of us that is a lesson of

trauma, not a lesson of truth.

And then it changes how we may think

about things. So, so for example, a a

real and sadly

many examples of this I that I can bring

to mind and people's faces who come to

mind as I say it, but someone who felt

pretty good about themselves and able to

navigate the world and

striving for a better job and doing fun

things who then is assaulted.

Right? And after that assault, the

person

is much less present in the world and

internalizes a bunch of different

thoughts about themselves. Of I don't

really like being out, I like being at

home better, or never it goes well, I

don't get along with other people. Like

they think about themselves differently.

So, there is a cognitive blind spot,

which makes it

very, very difficult to think

with accuracy about say possibility. So,

that person may have say been striving

for a better job, right? But, if they

think of themselves differently, I'm not

the kind of person who can get ahead,

and people don't really like me, then

they don't strive for a better job. They

just take for granted that they can't

get it. It won't go well, they'll fail

at it. But, they never thought that

before.

Is this what you kind of see when people

refer to someone having daddy issues?

And the I was thinking as you were

saying that that my dad let So, is say

my dad left when I was four. Mhm. And I

internalized this idea that men don't

love me, for example. Right. And then I

go through life being an avoidant person

in romantic situations, or

self-sabotaging, or going for people

that are unavailable to avoid the

rejection. Right. Is that somewhat

similar? Like I've created a cognitive

blind spot, and now I'm living out that

as an instruction manual for my life.

Yes.

Absolutely, yes. And the the earlier in

life, the more powerful the lesson is.

And the brain doesn't go [clears throat]

back and revisit those lessons. So, I

think this is this is so amazing and

surprising to me that our brains

are so incredibly complex, right? More

complex than the greatest supercomputer,

right? Yet, our brains don't do some

very basic things. Like we don't reboot

and see is there a patch, or is there

something to fix, right? We don't go

back and look at these earlier lessons.

So, if you learn at age four, oh, men

don't love me. That's a hard lesson to

unlearn, because it gets solidified at

an early age, and then once those

lessons are there, there's an

internalized danger to go revisit them.

Like if you go revisit that lesson,

could you be disappointed, right? The

thought that's the way it is. And that's

the way it's going to be. Like that's

kind of how what we tell ourselves

inside the trauma kind of walls it off,

and then we don't just go back and look

and say, is that really true? Like here

I am, I'm an adult now, and now did I

just carry forward something when when I

was four years old that wasn't about me?

Is it really about the four-year-old,

right? Or is it about the adult? Like we

learn all these things, but we don't go

back and revisit the lesson. And then

yes, there's a person who could be very,

very avoidant in ways that that lesson,

that quote-unquote truth that is not

true, can change that person's life. And

that's why if we go back and look at

that, life can really change. We can go

back and look at why do you feel that?

It's interesting to feel that. Let's

let's think about it, and you know,

what's the story behind it? And we can

get to a place where that can be undone

and say, oh,

I took that lesson inside because

someone else made a choice that was

about them and not me. No four-year-old

is responsible for a parent leaving.

Right? But, I took something in that was

different, and it's really affected me,

and I came to feel differently about

myself. It's not that everything

instantaneously changes, but boy, the

world is different then.

On that subject as well of say the

father leaving at four years old, and me

thinking that men were Well, let's say I

was four years old, and my father was

violent. What you sometimes see is

people then are attracted to the

familiar when they grow up. So, although

it wasn't healthy,

they have a sort of bias towards being

attracted to something that was

familiar, even if it wasn't healthy.

Right. That gets complicated with

sometimes people will talk about as

repetition compulsions are are quite

complicated. Often, what a person is

doing then is trying to gain a sense of

mastery over a situation in which they

had no control.

So, you will see this in abusive

relationships, where you know, sometimes

a person will come

and say,

okay, I'm coming to see you, but I know

you can't help me, right? And then my

last like eight relationships have been

just awful. So, how can you possibly

help me? And then I might say something

like, if you can tell me how you had

eight different relationships that

didn't go well, maybe I'll believe you.

But, you're going to tell me about the

same relationship eight times over.

Right? Something along those lines,

because we repeat things that don't go

well

in an effort to gain a sense of control.

So, what often is the case in that kind

of situation is whether it's repeating

an abuse cycle, or just someone who is

inattentive, or isn't interested. The

the person is trying to feel better

about something from the past. So, if

the father was inattentive, and that

person has a romantic interest in men,

that person may choose men who are

inattentive, with a desire to make them

inattentive, to fix the the to soothe

the pain of the past, because the

emotion systems in our brain don't care

about the clock and the calendar. So,

you can solve the past in the present as

far as the emotion systems are

concerned. And if the trauma is very

strong in us, the emotion systems will

rule the day. So, they said the father

was violent, then maybe that person

chooses

a violent significant other, right? And

then that relationship goes away, and

the person chooses another violent

significant other. And then sometimes

the thought is, well, the person is

choosing that because

that's what they're comfortable with, or

that's it. But,

no the the the person is is trying to

make sense of something, and there's

some desperation inside to feel better

about themselves, and to fix and heal

something. Whereas why if we can

intercede there and say the problem is,

if you want someone who's attentive,

choose people who are attentive Choose

someone who's attentive, right? As

opposed to choose someone who's not

attentive and try and make them

attentive. Can we become addicted to our

victimhood?

Sure. There's no internalized victim

without an internalized persecutor.

So, if someone is victimized in the

sense of the law, right? Someone has

done something bad to that person. That

doesn't mean that person takes inside of

them that they are a victim.

Right? But, trauma can make us feel like

victims. After the loss of my brother,

when I felt like

um maybe we're cursed, and I'm not I

can't really get anywhere in the world.

Like there's a black magic to that.

Right? Then I feel like I'm a victim of

something. I don't I'm behind the eight

ball. I then have a sense of otherness,

right? And and now I've taken something

inside of myself, where we don't need a

persecutor anymore. I feel like I'm less

than. So, how's that going to go well?

Right? So, what we end up doing is we

take inside of us sometimes this sense

of victimness, but that

also takes inside of us the idea that we

are less than, that there is something

magical that is bad and negative. And

what we need to strive it against is

exactly that. That something may have

happened that we might say, okay, that

person is a victim in the eyes of the

law. They were assaulted, right? But,

that doesn't mean that person has to

take victimness

inside, guilt and shame. How many people

have I seen who were assaulted, and they

talk about how they're ashamed of it,

and it's their fault. Someone else

attacked them.

Right? But, the reflexive guilt and

shame of trauma can lead us to feel less

than. Then we start feeling

like victims. Then we feel less than, we

embrace this, and we don't need someone

to persecute us

anymore.

The limbic system, we're talking about

the brain here.

What is the limbic system, and what role

is it playing in cementing our trauma?

Yeah. So, the the limbic system is the

name for the emotion systems in the

brain. So, we're simplifying a little

bit, but the idea that there are logic

systems and emotion systems. The emotion

systems are limbic. Those are the limbic

systems, and they never lose when they

come face to face with logic. Right?

Like the limbic, the emotional always

rules

the logic if the two come head to head,

which is why if

the emotion of trauma, the fear of being

less than, the need to repair something

that was unfair in the past, if that is

driving us, logic will not have its say.

You know, logic would say,

if you've dated six people who've all

kind of seemed the same at the outset,

and then all behaved in the same

negative way, don't choose a seventh

like that, right? I mean, logic very

logic was saying that at the second

person, not let alone the third, the

fourth, the fifth. Why do we see

repetition of unhealthy relationships?

Because the limbic system, if it needs

to feel different, it needs, so to

speak, to solve that trauma by gaining

mastery, it's going to go look for the

seventh person who's just like the first

six.

But, once we take the energy, we lance

the abscess, so to speak, of the trauma,

then logic can have its say. And that

person who says, you can't help me

because the last eight relationships

were all awful, sees, oh, I did the same

things, chose the same person last eight

relationships. That's one paradigm, and

I'm changing it now.

And then things are different when they

thought they couldn't be.

Because they can see now what they

couldn't see before. The limbic system

isn't ruling the day anymore. There's a

whole balanced brain that has an

understanding of self, and uses that

understanding to move forward in life.