I couldn't get it out my mind I had to

get hold of a psychologist

[Music]

can't go on

Jamie carragher is a Liverpool stalwart

730 odd appearances it's never going to

be another Jimmy character he's a winner

he will you know

it's just ridiculous I'm no huge Ronaldo

fan I think that's pretty obvious it's

sad for him the ways people are speaking

about Messi towards the end of his

career and Ronaldo and it's completely

different it's almost like he feels like

he's not racism I've got so much

admiration for him for his mental

strength to be able to withstand fresh

air criticism and I saw too many players

never recover from that I knew from the

first time I played football for me

winning was all that mattered if you say

to me what do I miss most of being a

professional footballer it's women

I'd rather cheat and win than not win

when Jaime loses a game is he different

that punish myself when I didn't perform

well and I regret that but absorbs that

thing of oh my God

I was just driving myself mad when I was

at my absolute Peak and best

that's when I needed more help the

feeling your stomach is that bad you

just you zombie there I always remember

and the only time I've ever did this in

my whole career

much of your success has been a result

of a winning mentality in some of the

toughest moments where does that come

from the reason why I've become the

player I have I think it's

before this episode starts I have a

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[Music]

Jamie when I

start this podcast I usually start with

people's childhoods but as I was reading

through your story I think this is the

first time I'm going to start before the

person was even born

because I I read that

there was a possibility that you weren't

even going to be born because of a I

guess a misdiagnosis that your mother

was giving about you

can you take me back to that story yeah

that was uh

would have been about let's say would it

be in about 1977 obviously 78 I was born

and I mean mum has had two miscarriages

before me

and then

when I it will she feel pregnant with me

did the doctors nurses didn't know what

was wrong with the new something was

wrong and initially they were saying

that we think your child has got Spina

bifter and I think

well I'm saying it in those days maybe I

don't know if it's the same now there's

a chance you could terminate the

pregnancy if the if the baby was

whatever in order

and my mom was I think was given that

option and she my mom's my mom's very

holy things the right way that probably

at that stage in the early 20s she would

be going to church every day

she still goes every Sunday now

so here thing was not with the way she

says to me was

if our Lord wants me to have

a baby who's got Spina bifter or maybe

something else that's that's what's

being decided for me that's fine it's my

child I love that child

and

what I find

fascinating when you think of sort of

today

is that

the closer it got to the me being born

it wasn't Spina bifter but they still

knew something wasn't right

and it wasn't until

I was born that I had basically my

insides were on the outside

so I've I've uh gastro's gastroskitas

it's called the condition now I've got a

big scar right across my stomach I mean

if if someone has that condition today

and plenty of babies do it's a really

small scar

but the the thing that I think is

fascinating or just makes me think wow

on my mum's side is the fact that as

soon as I was born I was rushed away

straight away to Alder hay children's

hospital hospital which is still going

strong today in Liverpool and because of

what I've gone to achieve I've got a

real link with the hospital

and

uh through our charity we actually

funded the uh the ward that looks after

babies who have oh really what I had uh

but

I get pushed away

to children's hospital and I mean mum

doesn't know anything

there's no phones there's no she's still

in the Zachary Hospital

obviously I've got a problem straight up

to older hey my dad go straight there

but again there's no the technology

isn't like that and I just think how

long it must have been before one we mum

knew I was all right what I had how

could it have to go you know you aren't

quite fathom that when you think about

today and how quickly even get in touch

with with different people so uh I just

think about what was going through my

mum's behind there for that sort of the

next hour or two until you know she

probably found out everything was okay

your knowledge of that story and that

experience has that

left a lasting impact or impression on

you in terms of the decision your mum

made your mum made or being whisked away

or the operation or having this guy or

anything like that has that left any

sort of impression on you at all

yes

all about me more I would say you know

to to

have had two miscarriages to have that

going through your third pregnancy to

think you could lose the baby the no one

can quite give you a definitive answer

about what's going on with you know this

child in your stomach and then to

to not know straight away I just I just

I only know of now and when people have

kids and I've had my own kids and

everything's so documented isn't it

whether it's you know the first picture

on Instagram you're there with the the

baby when the baby's born

I I wasn't actually maybe we can get to

that later I wasn't there for my uh

firstborn

and that's something I do regret but I

just think about how

my mom must have felt and and sort of me

look at my mom because I've been very

lucky the life I know leads the

experience about I've I've had

you know it's it's not there if anyone

doesn't make you know saying he says no

longer with me dad of course but yeah

for me want to sort of make that

decision and uh I'm still here today

what about your dad what what um talk to

me about him and his character and what

impact that had on you before the age of

10.

it's a real big character yeah he's you

know he's

he'll be in the pope he'll have a debate

he'll get up and sing he'll he'll have

an argument with someone he's like a

real Larger than Life sort of character

who did you care about impressing the

most just not even in the context of

your parents but just who were you

trying to impress when you were young

because for me you know it might have

been my older brothers it could have

been my dad it could have been you know

a teacher who are you trying to impress

I mean the obvious wants to save me that

because he was the one who was always

there in terms of he talked about

football or like yeah

I mean mum never watched him play

football okay

I mean memo must have watched me play

five times in my life and that's nothing

to do with not being proud of me or not

being able I know it's not the done

thing now but it was always the case of

my dad took us the football and stayed

at all you know and and did what we

associate with women things and now

obviously

that type of comment or then thought

certainly back then be classed as like

sexist now and rightly so but that was

just the way it was it wasn't I don't

think my mum was

sort of badgered me dad to go to the

football she always just felt well okay

that's your thing to take them to the

football whether to be going to watch

everything as young kids or you know

play me games for

you know amateur teams little boys and I

want to start on that journey and when

you when he took you to football did he

have high standards and expectations

for you when you were playing

yes but I think that came not because he

was so desperate for me to be a

footballer I think that became because I

think he knew pretty early on

I had something

you know my dad had played football he's

had a

watched football my dad was a massive

football fan so he he done everything he

could do in football in terms of played

amateur football

managed amateur teams went to what you

have it at home and away so he was just

he was obsessed with football

so from a young age I think he was quite

tough for me a couple of times I'd Stand

Out only because he knew the standards I

could get to I'm one of those times is

like a story I put in my book

and I think sometimes with me Dad

listens back I think he

I think he doesn't like me to say the

story because I think he looks back at

it and thinks oh I wish I hadn't done

that but I've got no problem with it you

know I think it's part of my life past

my story that basically I was seven

years of age

and I didn't want to play in a game it

was that cold it was freezing it was

Hailstone and I got tackled and I

pretended that was a hair crying and

come off buddy me Dad and I'm the same

we we couldn't suffer bluffers or

phonies we'd say you know that's

hypothetic and he knew I was putting it

on

unless you say it was the last time I

did

and I read that part in your Memoir yeah

in your Memoir it says there was some

reigning football boots when you got

home yeah maybe there's a little bit of

artistic license there with the uh the

guy who wrote it but

no I think it was that and I think

throughout my football career

not much I'm talking about the big thing

for me and the big thing for me that I

want to pass on to my son

is having character

after me will will

take you to places that you don't think

are possible if you've got that

personality mental strength

character I think that overrides a lot

of things that's really why I'm asking

these questions because I could see

throughout your career that much of your

success has been a result of a winning

mentality and character in some of the

toughest moments and that's not the case

with all the footballers that I've

spoken to that's just the case with some

of them even when I sat with Peter

Crouch she referenced you as being

um so set on winning and so obsessed

with winning that you didn't even that

he didn't think you were ever enjoying

it and so I'm trying to figure out and

you smile when I say that because you

you know it's true I've read you I've

heard you say that subsequently but um

where where does that come from where

does that character and that obsession

with victory at all costs to the point

that you cause suffering in yourself

where does that come from

foreign

something like that maybe you know you

speak to a lot of probably

more people who give you that handset

than I do and maybe have a better

insight into it to me in some ways now

I'm not quite sure

but I knew from the first time I played

football

for me winning was all that mattered and

if you say to me what do I miss most of

being a professional footballer it's

winning

it's not the taken past not the training

a lot of people always say this I

footballers say this all the time I miss

the dressing room I don't miss the

dressing room

I missed the dressing room after the

game and we win that life you've done

something together

and I listened to crouchie's podcast

because I've seen it pop up somewhere I

think it was made online or some piece

of crowd said Stephen Gerard and Jamie

carragher race off players after 15 I

thought I better listen to this one uh

but

what Peter Crouch said Is Right

and he's probably looking at me a little

bit dumbfounds I can't understand that

but I can't understand him

for me Bill shankly said football is a

matter of life and death and

I don't think he meant that I think that

was obviously tongue and cheek at the

time and no football club knows that

statement

is not true more than Liverpool Football

Club

but it's very close to being true

that's the way I see it that's football

for me

is a way of life and and winning is all

that matters and for me when I played

I'd rather cheat and win

than not win and uh I don't ever be any

different

and that's why I think football is

taking me to places in my life

that almost means a tear to me I but

it's always taking me to places where

I'm like I don't feel like I'm ever

gonna get over it

you know results or something hasn't

gone well

you mentioned that that post-match

feeling is is the best and potentially

the feeling you missed but I've also

heard you describe it as relief you know

and that's um that's an interesting

thing because people would think the

post-match victory feeling would be

Euphoria and Elation but for you to

describe it as relief is a

curious word

because I knew how bad I'd feel if we

didn't win or they hadn't gone well it

was almost relief that I'm not going to

feel like that

for the next two or three days because I

would I think I punished myself a little

bit when I didn't perform well or we

didn't win

and I regret that but I don't know if I

could have done anything different

it was what it was me you know what I

spoke to a site at one stage I spoke to

I had to I had to

I wasn't asked to I had to get hold of a

psychologist sport psychologist that

were new because

what I was doing to myself was

I was just driving myself mad really

with the standards I was expecting of

myself and this I must say was not when

I was not playing well in shorter

conference this one was when I was at my

absolute Peak and best

that's when I needed more help

because I got to a stage where I felt I

couldn't make a mistake

if I if if I didn't play well I thought

we're gonna lose

yeah because I wasn't Daft I was playing

at my best I was a huge part of the team

and there's lots of other great players

around there of course but I knew I was

a huge influence in the Rafa beneath his

area era

and I felt I'd go into big games

thinking if I don't play well today I'm

not going to win

and

if I made a mistake and I always

remember the mistake I made it was aware

that Atletico Madrid

Champions League group game will win a

one nil but under pressure constantly

and I'm I'm playing really well I'm in

control

that was me and my elements away from

home in Europe

for Liverpool trying to get that clean

she's organized and talking to everyone

and a longboard and he scored

and in the airport on the way home

she's like this can't go on

uh this has got to stop you know that

what I'm actually doing to myself I've

played great I've made a little mistake

you know they've capitalized on it

but you can put yourself through that

what was the symptoms that you were

confronting in that moment why what

couldn't carry on so you had made that

mistake you're in the airport you're on

the plane whatever

what is the what's happening I couldn't

get it out my mind I couldn't I got like

shoot two nights when I was sleeping

I mean you want to say not to sleep and

I get a couple of hours I'll be like

constantly on my mind and wake up it was

the first thing to think about

and I was just like

what am I doing to myself but how would

you stop it but but the fascinating

thing was

when I spoke to the sports psychologist

that guy called Bill Bez we kind of knew

him from

the England squad

speaking to it and then it got to the

stage where I spoke to him probably two

or three times a season

almost like I reflect and you know

what's gone on

I couldn't change we actually got to the

bottom of actually this is what Tamika

knew who you are

this is the drive to sort of if you if

you did probably dismiss mistakes or

were not too bothered I'll be I'll be

fine next week

that wouldn't make I wouldn't make you

who you are and

I could still never Shake It Off I could

I couldn't but I almost by speaking to

him it made me understand and accept

that's what it was so I still went

through turmoil if I didn't play well

if I made a mistake I always wonder if

that was

like a byproduct of being a local player

I always think what would I have been

like about a plate for Aston Villa or

Tottenham you know I I didn't know that

many people you know I felt like you

were playing for

the club of the supporters of your

family and friends really if you know

did you ever feel anxiety in those

moments the feeling of anxiety so when

something is plaguing you so much that

you almost feel that kind of sense of

nervous energy that keeps you up at

night and you feel it in your stomach no

it was never anxiety I would say anger

and I want to put this rice it's like

I didn't even want to sleep when I get

to train in the next day did that come

out in your home life because it's hard

not to take that home with you yeah I

think it will have time

yeah

yeah 100 percent

I remember something came up

a year or two ago

on here on Twitter about

a group of players or a certain player

or maybe being a manager went out

another meal

or a few drinks after they'd lost

and with this big debate on uh on

Twitter well why shouldn't you know some

fannular fans are like he shouldn't be

like they shouldn't go out and there was

this few big debates and I think Gary

lineke mentioned something that I've

never not

chain I've never changed my plans on the

back of the results

okay that that sounds nice I thought it

was unbelievable I would change plans

every single week if that game didn't go

well

so that's where it was affected my home

life so in terms of organizing a night

owls going for a meal with friends

whatever it may be

I couldn't I couldn't show my face if

we'd have lost and I played poorly not a

chance and I couldn't believe that some

players

could could just carry on with the life

I'd be a bit like oh no you no you

because the feeling your stomach is that

bad you just you don't even want to be

he's gonna be there he's gonna be

whipped people you don't speak you know

that's that's what animal she got me and

I go back to that you know would it have

been different at another club I would

never wanted to play for another club

but that is the one thing I do think

about would it have resulted some

performances affected me differently

you come home after a you know

losing a game or something

you've got your family there your kids

run up hey

I mean to be fair me kids were quite

Young when I was still playing

but there was one game that stands out

when I couldn't get out of something I

was opening a restaurant I opened a

restaurant about 10 or 15 years ago

called Cathy Sports England

in Liverpool

and the two times we opened

those two games I didn't play well

and in my head before the game I'm

thinking I've got to play well in this

game because people will think of it

don't play well I've got my mind

somewhere else and I was probably too

focused on the game in some ways and

then I had to go and almost open the

restaurants and there was people here

I remember the second one it was like no

I went I was there 20 minutes I was like

I've got to go if I spoke to Nicola

which I might have done but I won't tell

you before this I asked the question and

I said when Jamie loses the game is he

different and what's he like what would

she have said to me

hundred percent yeah

100 what you said you reckon

he's not there

when I'm talking to him I think she'd

probably say that

maybe now at different times but I would

be I'll be in a chance

I'd just be sort of Daydream is people

will be speaking to me

and

it's probably best just to leave me

alone and not

try and get my mind off because

I couldn't

even if I if it did get my mind off I

know I'd go back to it

and you're talking about going home

I always remember one time when I said I

was in a trance where I was with the

players so I always remember

we were playing a game against Evan

which for me is the biggest game

I had a nightmare

in the game and we were going for a meal

afterwards with the team like an

official not a sort of few drinks it was

it was to to refuel basically this game

is an early morning kickoff we had a

Champions League game on the Tuesday

night in in Eindhoven

foreign

and we've gone to the center of

Liverpool for a meal just to make sure

eating the right food

and I remember just staring

just couldn't stop I was just I wasn't

even eating just just staring

and next I get a text message

Stevie Jared

it's just like he's there

he's gone don't worry about it it's gone

finished forget about you know just

you've got the time but I was just I

he could just see everyone was

devastated

but for me I just no I'm not trying to

make out that I cared more than anybody

else because everyone's got their own

ways of dealing with things but

I

yeah it was a yeah it was

it's a huge part of my life football it

always has been always will be I think

I'll always be affected by football

results

when I went that's when I was playing as

an Everton fan as a Liverpool fan right

now

football results will affect me it

sounds painful sounds like suffering

doesn't sound like well when you win I

can assure you I make sure I I I enjoy

them I know afterwards I said before

that it was relief but you had that

moment of sort of Joy the reason it was

difficult to enjoy

and why I'm probably different to a

Peter Crouch or certain players who came

in as a I think they'd come in from

clubs where they played once a week and

if they played well it was like I don't

need somebody to that game I'm gonna be

off for two or three days but as we have

a game Tuesday

Champions League or a cup game

and they'll be ready to enjoy that right

bang we're back on it now it was almost

like you're just on this train and you

nothing's getting in the way nothing's

not Unstoppable I can assure you it

wasn't the whole Doom and Gloom I loved

it and so many nights and times and

experiences but I do wish I was a little

bit kinder to myself on the back of a

poor performance or a defeat I mean does

what I keep thinking about one standing

out

we we we won the FA Cup Final in 2006.

personally out of the great season we'd

we kept 33 clean sheets which was one

away from a record which was which was

obviously a lot

we played the Cup Final I scored their

own goal I didn't play well Stevie Jack

had wins the final and we go on the open

bus tour

around Liverpool so I've had a great

season but not had a great last game

and my son's on the bus with me and I go

on the top of the bus to start with

but you're on the bus for maybe three or

four hours

within an hour I was downstairs I just

sat there thinking oh

it didn't go well I didn't do that you

know I didn't do and I was thinking now

when I look I'm embarrassed I'm like

what are you doing it was one game

you've had an unbelievable season the

team have we won the FA Cup we finished

the season with a trophy

but I couldn't it was almost like I was

up there acting because I didn't feel

like celebrating but we won the cup

you know just because I hadn't I I'd

made a mistake hadn't played

particularly well

I know most players will be able to go

I've had a great season there's only one

game we won

I found it tough people that have that

Winner's mindset they um as you kind of

alluded to a second ago they often

struggled to understand those that don't

to relate to them and they often have a

lot of friction with the people that

don't have the Winner's mindset because

when you see the world and that way I

saw it a lot in um Michael Jordan's

documentary Last Dance brilliant wasn't

that yeah amazing I think I've got a

poster upstairs book after I watched it

but um he had that mindset where he was

you could see he would like pick on

certain people who who wouldn't meet him

at his level did you ever find yourself

and Stevie doing that where if someone

came into the dressing room and they and

they weren't at that level you would you

would either you'd force them out or

you'd I mean that's kind of what Peter

Crouch was alluding to right that he was

kind of saying that you two would be

protecting the bar yeah I mean

I think what what happens is I think

what Peter was trying to mention which I

think is a little bit unfair the way he

described it was that when a new player

came in

I think

me and Steve were fans we ain't just

players we were fans it was like oh God

I hope he's good you know like a fan was

out this new Fella's good and when

you're coming after the first training

session it'd be more than a joke oh God

this doesn't look good does it or you

know what I mean that type of thing

about God because I hope this goes well

uh but I was Stevie

Stevie was different to me and I was

very vocal very emotional

Stevie's maybe body language on the

picture times will be questioned if you

know he wasn't happy with somebody he

might turn away

you know whereas I'd be

remonstrating screaming shouting you

know and not in terms of someone hadn't

played Paul poorly but might have been

more in terms of organization someone

doing the job for the team where are you

where you need to be I always felt like

I was

the coach of the team in some ways and

because I played a center-back and I

could you know see the whole team in

front of me yeah but we would be on top

of people but I don't I wouldn't like

that to come across in like a a bullion

way or you're trying to you know keep

people down here we loved

because you wanted to win that was all

that matter it wasn't about securing

your place or making sure I was

protected in any way it was that thing

of like

it's Liverpool it

the big clubs

it's not enough to play Ford man I know

some people think I played for this club

and it's on your CV and it's a great

achievement to get to a Liverpool or

United Chelsea City

but it's not enough to play for and

you've got to win the whole existence of

those clubs about winning if they're not

winning there's no point

you know so that was my thing my drive

at Liverpool was to win every single day

when Jared Julia came in came in as a

managers Julia so Julia Gerard we'll

just call him Gerard Julia

um when he arrived at uh Liverpool in I

think it was 1986 1998 1998 he came into

the the club

um

the place took to him at faster than I

read because he one of the key decisions

he made was around Paul lince

you see the players talk to him yeah and

no I think he found it difficult to

start with really I think it was a a big

split in the camp

in that the players would come before

that with Roy Evans and Jared Huli came

in he was new to it

and

yeah I think it was tough for him enough

for this season

yeah did that turn at some point did he

win the trust of the players yeah I mean

yeah he put Paul in great

fella I get on great with paulins great

player as well

didn't have the career that Liverpool

he's had maybe at other clubs

and I think gerardi just wanted to make

a fresh start and he wanted to I think

most a lot of managers do it

the the take on

you know the uh the big guy if you like

and it was certainly that he was I think

he was maybe England's captain or Vice

Captain at the time

but he wanted a completely

revolutionized Liverpool and completely

changer and yeah he had a Wedgewood with

paulins and the thing was not about him

having weeds as such but also the fact

that he didn't sort of back down he

really held his own he had a strong

argument in the team meeting I think wow

we just stood up to probably one of the

best Midfield players of his generation

what was that strong argument in the

team meeting it was it was over

Poland's question what we're doing in

training as senior Pros do at times you

know we're trying to get it right why

are we doing this why are we doing that

and I think General and Julia saw this

has this opportunity to sort of stand

his authority it was almost like I would

imagine he was glad

paulins had said it and it was what it

was Poland's in some ways and I don't

think the message was for Pauline

because I think he was always going to

get rid of NC I think the message was

the rest of us

you know don't don't try and take me on

this is what we're going to do publicly

in front of in the team meeting yeah

told Paul yeah basically but not you

wouldn't be at this club anymore but he

questioned his desire in a game uh

Anthony fairpoints was probably one of

the bravest footballers you'd say but in

a particular game against Manchester

United

we'd lost it 2-1 and we'd lost two goals

in the last minute and I think it was a

very so defeat for everyone

so I think everyone was a little bit

emotional about it

and because he had jumped up and said

something he just went straight back and

said he wasn't happy that he'd come off

he shouldn't have come off my captain

should come off on a stretcher from Old

Trafford and it was it was interesting

with Jared Julia in that

we we had him the first foreign manager

and all of a sudden people would

associate him with this flee football

and being maybe a bit nice but that was

that was what the Liverpool team was

before General Juliet came he completely

went the other way and was once a big

strong powerful player's aggression and

that's why me and him are such a great

relationship because I was such a

competitor maybe he didn't have the

quality that some of the players had in

the Roy Evans team if you're liking some

of the football they played was

outstanding

but he just wanted people who would die

for that [ __ ] because I I read that part

of the reason why his reign as manager

sort of came to an end was because he

made some bad signings and he was

he didn't really inquire enough about

the players that he was signing's

character and their personality and so

and I was just so compelled by that idea

that that's one of the most important

things when you're building teams is

finding people that have the same like

mentality and character versus just

great sort of technical players I think

about the same in business like I'm

always considering how someone will

um support our culture make our culture

better raise the bar in terms of like

that mentality versus just being able to

do [ __ ] a thousand kick-ups or

whatever and loads of skills yeah I I

think you do need the same mentality to

play for Liverpool what does that mean

and the other big clubs

to be able to withstand pressure

criticism

that comes your way so often I saw a lot

of Liverpool players who would start

really well

and it wouldn't it wouldn't make me

think we've got a great player here I'd

always think

let's see a couple of months down the

line because I knew what was coming

because every player goes through a few

by games he gets criticism whatever it

may be and I saw too many players never

recover from that

and that that tells me now for me the

top level football is mentality it was

do you have that personality character

to get you through

those tough moments and come back and

fight back and not give in can you teach

that I don't know you tell me what do

you think

um I tend to believe that it comes from

ex experience I think resilience and

that sort of character those character

traits come from being knocked down

loads of time so when the tenth failure

or knockdown comes or the tenth moment

of hardship comes you're more equipped

to deal with it

um so players that haven't been through

the tougher you know challenges in their

life maybe in their personal life maybe

where they come from don't have that

well it's interesting we're doing this

uh this afternoon and this morning

someone in front of the operation

yes indeed yeah right so he's going for

the operation he's a professional

footballer

and

painfully haven't been able to probably

sleep about it thinking about it you

know just

want to do as much as you can you know

to help them because it's your son

but the thing I keep jumping home to him

and I keep saying it almost every day

we're not using this as an excuse

this is not going in the way

it's like this happened is it okay boom

we're going again it's like

this I know for a lot of people or

players or young players or whatever it

may be

would be a hero to come across and

understandably so

but it's not in years to come gonna be

oh I didn't quite do what I wanted

because of that knee up yeah and this

never happened and that it's like no

there's there's going to be lots of

things in his career

as in my career obstacles in the way

you've got to get over them you've got

to get them all the way or you've got to

deal with it and then keep going

nuttings and that was always my mindset

and that's what I'm trying to put into

my son I'm pretty confident he's got

that mindset of not the structure

nothing getting your way you don't use

anything as an excuse or a reason why

something didn't happen that no excuse

mentality just you keep going nothing

gets not no obstacles in the way

you said earlier on that you might not

have cared as much as you did you might

not have had that that same level of um

sort of excruciating Obsession and and

care about the results and the outcome

and winning if you'd been at another

club and you were at another club which

is England and you didn't seem to care

as much you said that you remember I I

was quite shocked to read that that

remember the text message that said [ __ ]

it it's only England and

um generally you didn't seem to be as

excruciatingly hard on yourself after

losing for England

as you did with losing for Liverpool

I think that was down to the fact that I

didn't carry the same responsibility

because I I never really played I was

like a squad player really I wouldn't

Clash myself as patriotic

not at all

can you be patriotic if you're on city

is that is that a word or is there

something I have no idea

I'm actually massively passionate about

my own city

um

maybe that comes from the way we're

brought up in Liverpool

you know the

thing of you feel as if like a lot of

the country's against you and maybe

that's

some of it's true some people outside

other people think oh that's a chip on

your shoulder but there is that so we

sort of buy into that and that doesn't

mean like

I'm against England as such

but it watching England now in the World

Cup would never take me to a place

emotionally

the way it would if I saw a Liverpool

playing it just wouldn't take me there

it's not like a conscious thing of ugh

I'm not gonna make I'm not gonna be

happy about this it's just

inside me and and that wasn't just when

I was playing for him that was when I

was a

child I'd be thinking why in England

because they haven't players you know we

almost felt like England was a team from

down south or a London team that's just

the feeling I had and but I think if if

I would have become a Mainstay of the

England team

I think I would have felt that I think I

would have got there and that's me one

disappointment in my football great it's

the only team in my life from when I

started five years ago I didn't dominate

I'm gonna say dominate was

be a Mainstay of the team be one of the

voices of the team be one of the leaders

because I wasn't good enough

that's a simple fact there's lots of

plays that you've encountered in your

career that didn't reach their potential

you're talking about Reaching Your

Potential doing your best getting to the

getting to the top of your potential a

second ago when you think about why

those players didn't reach their

potential if you had to point out

characteristics or behaviors that led

them to miss their potential what would

those behaviors be

the traits of losers hmm

I think blaming other people at

different times for their own

poor games mistakes

always looking for excuses I would say

I think I'm I'm pretty honest and I was

as a player and I always remember

when I was a young lady I had a bad game

I keep talking about games

you remember them more yeah but a very

famous coach it was a huge inspiration

to me was running around

and uh I played a game and played poorly

and I did the ninja after the game

saying it was my fault those goals were

my fault

you know this was the

a coach who was a a real sort of man's

man a legend of Liverpool Football Club

he wasn't the coach then he still used

to come in and walk around the training

ground

and he said don't have to do that again

he said you don't need to

open yourself up like that he should be

honest with an injection room and see a

manager but he said you know what I mean

somebody's got to be clever and look

after yourself a little bit and you

don't need to

be as honest you think you're doing the

right thing and I think

I knew exactly where he was coming from

I think at times you need to be honest

but I think it was probably a lot of the

times like that you maybe need to

protect yourself a little bit but you're

never hide behind the fact that it was

someone else's fault and again I keep

going back to me soon because I'm not a

coach or a manager and people say to me

you know could you give something back

but I was trying to give it back to me

soon and things like that don't question

them aren't you don't make excuses don't

blame the manager or if you come in and

say oh the culture the trainer well get

shot out of it don't don't be in the

direction I'm saying oh this isn't good

or that isn't good

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on the point of questioning the manager

one of the things I read was that Gerald

Julia Julia cuts his bloody name Julia

Julia cool one of the reasons why he

ultimately ended up leaving the club

um was because he started to lose his

authority in the dressing room now Peter

Crouch said to me that

great managers even when they don't know

the right answers pretend they do

because they know that if they ever get

to a point where the players know that

they're not in control then the

Authority's gone and there was a story I

read about Gerard wholey a

um

picking a team and then going and asking

Jared if it was the correct team

and then Gerard said it's not the

correct team and changed it

this happened in

in spring in 2004 in in the run-up to a

Premier League match way to Manchester

United

Jared Julio picked the team but then

consulted with Gerard whether the

selection was right who said it wasn't

right and then Julia changed it

I don't I don't it rings a bell I don't

know the specific game if that was the

right game but I think towards the end

of his time

I think the results are going well and

marriages no matter who they are they

will lose confidence and Stevie at that

time was obviously a mega stat and

you're trying to maybe keep people on

side if you're like not that I think the

players were ever offside with with

Gerard Julia but that confidence and

belief in the manager starts to have

away when results don't go well I

wouldn't say Gerard Healy ever lost

digestion in terms of how we felt about

him

as a man but it was it was a time for

her to come to an end there's no doubt

about that and it's an interesting one

that does a manager lose the dressing

room

yes

he's always lost part of adjustment

because the players who he's not picking

but I think it's when that belief goes

really but for me

again I think I was different to all the

players because I never played for the

manager

ever

I always play for the club and again

because it was the club I always felt

like I played for the club and the

supporters and I'm not saying that too

Curry favor with the supporters as such

but

no manager bought me

you know I I didn't no one managing

anything as such I mean bro you haven't

given me me Debbie or supposing

but the managers played me but I never

had that sort of feeling that

we need to win this for the manager

Rafa Benitez comes in next what's the

difference between Gerard Julia and Rafa

Benitez in terms of style because I find

it so compelling that managers can be

great for various different reasons and

we think of management as like a formula

but as I sit here with football players

that I've had seven eight nine managers

they all say that managers are

completely different in their stolen

approach

yeah raffle was completely different

Jared Julia was a manager

I think Gerard wholey was the type of

guy who could

he could manage an organization didn't

just have to be football I think he

could have been a bank manager he could

have

been a CEO if you're like he organized

people get everyone focused on you know

what do we want to achieve and but the

actual day-to-day stuff of coaching I

thought it wasn't as Forte and I'd sound

strange I don't think he had a huge

knowledge of the game enough but it

wasn't somebody was going to say

something something to you in a coaching

session or a tactical point that made

you think oh I never did that before or

that's a bit different it wasn't like

that his thing was bringing people

together for a common goal and almost

what I've described them to other people

people say

Clive Woodward the the England rugby

College World Cup winning culture was

probably similar in that now he's had

all the cultures but he's always been

coming up with ideas to create sort of a

Siege mentality or togetherness whereas

Rapha was a coach he was on that

training pitch every day

and he was a lot colder than Gerard

Julia he was a lot more interested in

the kids the wife you know yourself you

know we speak ask me about my dad or

different things like that was Jared who

Rafa didn't want to get involved in

anything it was just football I mean if

the guy was obsessed with football Raffa

was just like he was probably above me

somewhere but it was different but it

doesn't

I I mean I'll be honest with you when we

describe managers

like the one who come a couple after was

Roy Hodgson and it didn't go

particularly well but we point it

when a new manager comes in

I want to get whatever I can from

so it may not work for Liverpool I may

not like

X but I might like lion's head I'm sorry

so

you're always going to be a sponge and

taking things in and learning things and

I think when John Julia came in I was a

bit Power Player

and then became a fully fledged member

of Liverpool's first 11 for the next

five years and then Rafa came in

and then we again stepped up a level to

become the Vice Captain and one of the

leaders in the team one of the best

players in the team

so I always think I got the most

from these these other managers coming

in you know certainly I don't think he

would have ever heard of me

maybe you know not too much but I think

it's important when people come into

your life figures of authority

you've got to basically squeeze

everything out of them to your advantage

and I think I did that with both

managers

let's do the biggest prone con then so

from what I of these individuals as

managers so Jared Julia you said he's a

great sort of man manager CEO type

that's probably from what I hear one of

his greatest strengths his downside is

maybe a lack of football knowledge is

that what you're I wouldn't say it was a

downside because he had cultures around

him

who who did the training sessions it

just it got to its its natural end right

in that

you know we shouldn't forget him and he

nearly lost his life managing Liverpool

and he's then making decisions is he

in a fully you know football focused

state of mind but he's actually

recovering from almost losing his life

and we made a few signings that didn't

work and and to be honest that's always

How It Ends for Liverpool managers when

it comes to the end that they have a

summer where they buy a few plays they

don't quite work out and then the next

manager has to has to come in because

you know the the energy and the

excitement not just from the squad but

also the supporters just peed at an

house so rapha's great tactically

obsessed with football obsessed with the

game but his sort of downside was if

there I mean everyone has a [ __ ]

downside I have a downside as a manager

yeah yeah is is probably the the man

management stuff you yeah but I don't

think that's that stops US winning as

such yes nobody is everything yeah Alex

Ferguson is not a cult she's bought but

we more like a Gerard wholey type figure

and there's cultures there Rafa Benitez

people question his man management but I

I don't question the research and I

don't question Gerard who like oh the

managers you've just got to do what's

your strength that's your strength or

what if Rafa benite says his strength is

not the man management I'm putting this

act on it's all about being obsessed

with football and coaching every single

day do what you're good at and it is not

interesting is there's so many ways to

win because when I sort of sat here with

all the United players Rio Patrice Gary

they all say about Sir Alex Ferguson

they go manager but only came in the

training room dressing around twice in

26 years whatever and I and then you

hear about these other people like Rafa

who also tremendously successful

um won the biggest trophies you could

possibly win but wasn't that way

inclined history is written by the

winner it doesn't matter what you do so

if Sir Alex Ferguson doesn't do well at

Man United

those same plays be sent to you he's not

at the training ground yeah he's never

there yeah we don't do tactical work he

doesn't do any culture it it's all about

women

and and to be honest what you're saying

that is interesting because one time I

remember Rafa Benitez

he knew someone at United and he said

physician doesn't even coach because in

rapha's mind you've got to be

to be a top man you're a coach you know

I think when him and Mourinho came along

they were like cultures I probably

couldn't get their heads around the way

Alex Ferguson was and it was almost

it was almost a little bit dismissive

and it wasn't like I was trying to

defend the Manchester United manager it

was just a training if infection doesn't

even do the coaching I said so what yeah

it's like it doesn't matter he wins

there's different ways of winning and

that's my thing on TV now there's no

right or wrong way to play football it's

being the best you can be at what you do

and that and if that's for Rapides is

being on that training now coaching not

getting involved in stuff away from the

pitch well that's someone else's job

you know no one is perfect at any Alex

Ferguson wasn't a great coach so he

brought in great coaches I think that's

really important not just in in

in football management I actually think

in life in that for me I'm a little bit

weary of getting involved in things but

I think that's not my area of expertise

I think I'd be a little better arrogance

of Michelle to think I could just

parachute myself in there and

you know start running the show or you

get right involved in it so I think we

all got to know what our students are

and all God are no way we need help

because we all need help that's what

Richard Branson taught me

um you know reading through his story

but also getting to speak to him on this

podcast this is a guy who didn't know

what the difference between net profit

and gross profit until I think he was 50

which is the one of the key principles

like understandings of running a

business

dyslexic can't look at presentations if

you try and show him words on a slide

deck he'll he won't look at it he'll

only look at pictures he's got so many

deficiencies in areas that you think are

critical to business but

the one thing that everyone says he says

and everyone around him says was because

of all of his deficiencies he made up

for it by being the best delegator in

the world so he found people that could

plug all of these gaps and gave them

huge responsibility and you think you

know by the age of

at the same time when he doesn't know

the difference between net profit and

gross profit he's running 50 different

companies virgin is now 400 different

companies and you go how is someone

who's in his own words like not good at

business

doing that well just a supreme delegator

and Sir Alex focused in the same bad

coach but had can't remember his name

that guy that did it Carlos Keys lots of

different ones didn't he but I think I

think what you're saying

is really good because

the Creator I've had has afforded me so

many opportunities I'm so fortunate that

I I mean I'm speaking to you you know

you're speaking to other people who are

experts in their field

but when you speak to them and that

story about Richard Branson

is perfect in that

if you don't know them and you know say

my family and friends sometimes they're

fascinated by some of the people I meet

and I said I'm lucky to be in certain

situations and

they look at these people like that

they're extraordinary and when you've

got a sort of relationship with someone

whether it's someone I work on TV with

they're just normal people and they've

got the same sort of insecurities that

you've got but they've got something

about them where they've got sort of

maybe it's an opportunity that's a

reason they've grabbed it with both

hands they've an enthusiasm something

about them

put them in that position but do not

Extraordinary People they've got an

extraordinary talent for that you know

which finds themselves I feel it in that

field so

that thing where people are so impressed

with someone or think they're going to

give them these words that they've never

heard of before

I think the olds that are getting now I

realize that a lot of people in you know

great positions it's not because they're

some genius sometimes as I said it's

opportunity they've seen a niche in the

market whatever it may be they've just

gone out there and grabbed it you know

there's a real trap I've noticed based

on exactly what you've said where

someone's successful so what we do is we

assume that they get everything right

and so with Richard Branson because he's

a super successful entrepreneur we

assume that he's the best at marketing

branding Finance all of these things and

I noticed this a lot when I was in San

Francisco and we were it was when

Snapchat the app had blown up and we

were building a chat app and what you'd

see the team doing was whenever we were

trying to make a decision we the team

were going well what does Snapchat do

because Snapchat was successful we

assumed that their marketing strategy

every feature they had everything they

did with the login form we assumed

everything they did was right

um and I came to I came to sort of see

that bias in myself and it's exactly

what you've described if we see someone

who is at the top of the game

we assume that they are Godlike in

everything that's what you do with

Richard Branson she means the best

speaker in the world you've seen the

best salesman who know in reality from

what I've learned from doing this and

honestly looking at my own life because

I'm not actually good at business like

I'm not good at the business stuff I'm

not good at like Finance

um operations processes but I'm good at

this one thing and that's what I learned

from Richard is Richard's good at this

one thing he's like good I'd say he's

good at The Branding piece but he's just

an unbelievable delegator

um so that's yeah I mean that's that's

what I got from all of that but it's

it's funny having this conversation in

the wake of Richard Branson because he's

the the best example of that one of the

obviously one of the defining moments uh

I think in football generally not just

as live as a Liverpool player or a

Liverpool fan was that final away at

Istanbul

you uh you go in at half time I think

it's 2005 final you go in three nil down

when you go down that tunnel at three

nil down

honestly do you think you can turn that

game around no no no

not at all no what are you thinking when

you walk through the tunnel then there's

gonna be six nil is that what you're

thinking oh how can we stop it being six

nil

I think if you lose again three nil

it happens

if you lose five or six and it's

remembered

and that was my fear that was fear what

happened in the dressing room what did

Rafa say

not a lot

he wasn't a motivator he was he was a

tactician

and he made changes in this system-wise

strategically to change it but if I'm

being honest I think he changed the

changes he made was not to win the game

I think the changes he made was to stop

it becoming five or six nil

because we actually brought on a

defensive Midfield player Didier man we

went to

you can call it three at the back but

you can you can be B5 at the back if you

like rather than playing four

don't get me wrong the changes helped us

go on and get the goals but I think

initially we need to stop what AC Milano

doing otherwise this is going to be a

massacre why did the game turn around

I think the change is Rafa made

a little bit of luck

and Steven Gerard

hmm he scores the head oh 54 minutes or

something and then within a couple of

more minutes you've you're three now

three three but that's that's the little

bit of looking you just go so quickly

right after that that happens in some

games and

we did get a little bit of a look uh I

think the Lions would actually flagged

for an offside the referee didn't see it

and they carried on playing for 30

seconds so the lantern puts his flag

down

and that's in the run-up two was getting

our second goal

so we scored the second goal and then

generation it's just you know when

you're on a football pitch you smell it

it's 3-2

we knew it was good I knew it was gonna

be three three everybody knew it was

going to be three three just what is

that I don't know

you just the the

reason I know is because when we score

3-2

no one celebrated the goal scorer

everyone just runs back

he started celebrating he starts

celebrating but it's

he was going crazy I remember thinking

you shouldn't do that yeah but

everyone's back it's like everyone's

saying oof in his own and you don't need

to speak to other people

sometimes there's moments in games it

just you can smell it you can feel

something's happening is that a culture

thing as well because there's certain

clubs you have that when when they go

two-nil down three nil down no everyone

goes oh they're gonna do it they're

gonna come back and there's that

mentality where you go yeah we're not

safe here they're coming for us

I think Liverpool man united have got it

City you seem to have it now a city yeah

certainly in the last couple of years on

the Pep Guardiola

I've always felt Chelsea have had that

in the last 10 years or so even when

they went at the best they'd still find

a way to win

and yeah I know our club's got that and

we'll always have that you just it just

you feel like something's gonna happen

why why is Liverpool done so well in the

Champions League

I think a lot of that is emotion

belief getting winning those finals as

well yeah winning finals the history

that's gone before the anfield crowd

believe that the opposition coming to

anfield believe that something's going

to happen special this is a this is a

mythical football ground do you believe

they're the best fans in the Premier

League

I I wouldn't say that and the reason I

wouldn't say that because everybody

thinks they're the best fans yeah and I

think if I do say that

I won't be turning on my Twitter

notifications in a few days after this

podcast comes out but but no

um

I would say yes I

but every set of supporters what they do

to follow their team home and away I

think I'm feel special I don't think

anyone could deny that that there's

something special

Adam feel that doesn't happen at any

other places where

I think when we say that you know the

crowd suck the goal in well the

opposition manager would always say

before the game

no Spectators ever scored a goal

that's pretty obvious

but Adam field it almost feels like I

think even top managers even Pep

Guardiola he's his record that anfield

maybe the greatest manager of all time

he's had some of the greatest teams of

all time his record and I'm feels

horrendous and he

he hasn't changed his mind when he goes

to anfield it's just like the

environment the atmosphere just he

mad things happen at HomeField was that

the Pinnacle of your career that that

final battle oh yeah Istanbul

I have to be honest

I couldn't believe I was playing at that

level

well

I was a huge football fan

probably the biggest football fan in the

dressing room who was just obsessed with

football red watched everything

and I know about all the great teams you

know going back to the Real Madrid teams

of the 50s the Stefan postcas

um then you probably got to buy a Munich

teams of Beckham Bauer Krave teams just

before that

uh Total Football Holland then you've

got the AC Milan team the great teams

who dominate European football AC Milan

late 80s early 90s I could name all the

players

what they did guardiola's team of

Barcelona obviously that was after we

were involved in the Champions League

and

I'm very honest about

my capabilities of footballer

but I didn't think I was that level

some people may still think I'm not

that's obviously football's opinions but

I always remember when we won the

semi-final against Chelsea

I wasn't thinking right we're going to

win the championship meet me first few

days afterwards was I'm playing the

Champions League final you know this is

like Maldini berazi Crow you know all

these players who who I absolutely

idolize and know so much about the

defined by the European Cup

or a tournament I always think the

greatest players of all time

they've either dominated the European

couple they've won the World Cup of the

Euros or something it's winning leagues

is not enough to be really

put yourself on a level of the real

greats that's what they all do

and it was almost wow I can't believe

I'm I'm playing at this level you know

that made me think about Ronaldo

obviously he's he's out the World Cup

now and you've had a couple of strong

opinions on Ronaldo over the last couple

of weeks have I to be honest following

the interview he did and then I'm a man

united fan so I I didn't take it

especially well what he said and how he

did it and I thought it was very

self-serving and looked selfish Etc

um but there's probably another way to

do it and I wonder now I actually wonder

if he regrets doing it I regret I wonder

if he he knew it would play out like it

did and then he'd go to the World Cup be

benched again which almost kind of

validates Eric tenhag's position but

what's your whole stance on the Ronaldo

Saga

I actually only watched the full

interview a couple of days ago he did

with Piers Morgan I'd only seen clips of

it

and I watched the full interview

I'm not sure he's a guy who regrets

anything or too much if I'm being

totally honest or simply doesn't give

off that maybe in his private thoughts

I think the Poetry one will have hated

him but you know it's

he's fallible you know he's he's not

superhuman he's he's one of the greatest

players of all time he's special but I

I mean I'm no huge Ronaldo fan I think

that's pretty obvious and that's not for

his football and ability I actually I

got so much admiration for him for his

mental strength I just think it's

unbelievable

I think probably one of the strongest

players mentally

because he

he's had that thing his whole career for

how good he is he still had such a messy

on his shoulder it's always he could

never almost sit back and go

I'm the best almost relax he's always

had this constant yeah be not as good as

Messi and I know people it splits people

but I would say the majority of people

would probably side with Messi out I

would I would imagine I think that they

do

and I think to always have that and

always have that thing of trying to

prove people wrong and I've got that on

a completely different level

it's almost like he feels like he's not

rated even though everyone says he's one

of the best players of all time and I

and I can't help but admire that drive

because

I've got that drive but just not that

ability that he's got

but I just I mean I'm saying I don't

want him to sort of ruin his legacy with

interviews I mean I don't really care

it's not not my problem but

it's it's it's sad for him

the way people people are speaking about

messy towards the end of his career and

Ronaldo and it's completely different

and it's not to do with what's going on

in the pitch I think it's always that

idea that Ronaldo was about himself it

was the eagle whereas Messi has painted

this this like sync figure when I don't

actually think that's true

but people are talking about what messy

to win the World Cup you know with

Ronaldo it's like he's not the same

player but who is the same player to 37

so he's getting criticized for not being

the same player 37-38 when really he's

getting loads of that stage of his

career but because of the way he comes

across he storms off the pitch uh storms

down the tunnel he he's given that

interview people have obviously going on

Forum now and uh where does he go from

here because he because if he had had a

phenomenal World Cup then there'd

probably be a lot of doors open for him

some top sides would probably want him

even just for a year contract or

something but in the wake of being a

disruptive employer at his last role and

then going off to the euros and being

either a disruptive employee or just a

little poor performing employee he makes

you wonder like what manager is going to

want to take on that ego but also

without the upside you get with just

like incredible unfilled performance so

it's now just it seems like it's just

it's tilted the other way now yeah I

mean Ronaldo hasn't changed yeah he's

always been that sort of

character everyone's known that but he

was with the hassle yeah exactly now and

that's like everything in football you

know when we talk about a manager making

a decision

can you put up with that and it's not

it's in your business isn't it in your

life you know you don't cut off your

noses about your face but when I get to

that stage where you're thinking this

will become a more of a problem

and again I say that to be soon you know

when a manager looks at you as a player

every manager wants the same thing

performance low maintenance that's it

you know Satan players

you know and it's when it goes starts

getting weighted to the high maintenance

is basically the scales are more tilted

towards the high maintenance it's time

to go did you see any high maintenance

players in your career

that were specific particularly

troublesome

that weird or wind were

it's funny at Liverpool

in that

I think Liverpool's a unique Club

and I'm sure it's still the same

Liverpool supports have an obsession

with the manager that I don't think I've

seen at any other club

so when the team win it's about shankly

Paisley now it's klopp we know there's

great players

but the adulation I think starts with

Bill shankly

and when we when Liverpool win it's

about the manager and the players it's

not the players then the manager so the

managers are at Liverpool I think have

always had a great deal of authority

they've always had the people with them

so it's never a case of a players could

get a manager out and I never saw that

at Liverpool certainly not when I was

there Roy Hodgkin had a tough time at

Liverpool

he wasn't the right manager for the club

and the club moved around after about

six months why was he the right manager

he just he didn't get the club he didn't

say the right things in the Press

he was he was too defensive for

Liverpool for the top not just for

Liverpool but for any top club but

listen he'd had success in his career

playing that way and he wasn't going to

change when he was in the 60s so it was

just the wrong appointment it didn't

work I read that Gerard deliberately

missed a penalty to no that's not true

yeah I wonder I couldn't believe it was

true but I read that's what I read and I

thought there's no [ __ ] way that

Jared would miss a penalty I actually

went upstairs before you came and

watched it to see Gerald's body language

and Gerard did look pissed off

nothing like that and I mean I was I

felt sorry for him hey to be honest but

me points of making them what the club

is

I think it would always be difficult at

any stage

for a player to have this big ego to

sort of try and think he was more

powerful than manager because I think

that's why managers love being Manager

of Liverpool is because they'd always

get time you look at you can clap now

and there's a spell in in the season

the pandemic season where he's done he's

not amazing he's a Godlike figure

but other people actually lost six games

a whole against teams in the bottom of

the table in a row

and I'm not saying you should have been

exactly what I'm saying this I know the

clubs that question would have been

asked

I don't even mean one Liverpool support

as a saying one yeah it would have

actually even contemplated that for

anything because that's the type of

support that they've been brought up on

the manager knows what he's doing well

one of my best friends is um I love my

maybe my best friend in the world is a

Liverpool fan and I I said to him this

year when Liverpool was struggling I

said what would it take for you to

become clop out he wouldn't answer the

question I pressed him I pressed him for

weeks and weeks and weeks eventually I

was like if Liverpool get relegated are

you still klopping he was like yeah and

he just like leaves the group chat but

it's like a religious phenomenon yeah I

just I don't even with Vegas in a menu I

know he was he was a mumbly unbelievable

but I just think when I go to see man

United's past a big rival it'll be

George best and Bobby Charlton in that

and then maybe you know Maples becomes

after them in some ways maybe I'm wrong

but it just feels like different at

Liverpool I think that gives managers

huge power and why I don't think I've

ever encountered what I would call

player power as such at Liverpool

probably why Liverpool have been

successful though because many other

clubs have struggled with that even