is body language really that important

yes for example when you change the

posture of people who are depressed it

reduces their symptoms tiny tweaks lead

to big changes Dr Amy Cuddy expert on

the Behavioral Science of power Harvard

Professor coined the term power pose the

second most watched Ted Talk of all time

now posture can affect some of the

biggest moments of Our Lives your body

language is betraying you fifty percent

of our first impression is based around

body language so the way that we carry

ourselves really affects your life

because if people feel utterly powerless

they see challenges as threats instead

of opportunities they are less creative

less authentic so that's my mission to

help people feel more powerful and

become more socially Brave and there's

all kinds of ways in which we can fix it

is there a relationship there as well

between our body language and

attractiveness yeah there's research

showing that if you

that body language

and in dating situations how we tell our

stories to ourselves matters as I've

read through your story there was

bullying in your life

it's the worst thing that ever happened

to me I had to leave my job after I'd

worked so hard to get there I almost

decided to die like I'm so afraid of

them still

um

I think this is fascinating I looked at

the back end of our YouTube channel and

it says that since this channel started

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[Music]

Amy

[Music]

there's lots of um myths around body

language and how important it is and you

hear all these phrases about oh 80 of

our communication is non-verbal or 90 I

can't remember the numbers but you hear

all of this stuff

is body language really that important

yes it is important absolutely and and

it it is it probably affects you know

about about half of our impression of

others

our first impression is based around

body language

I'm not maybe it's higher than that but

I would say it's at least 50 body

language isn't just us speaking to

others we're also speaking to ourselves

the way that we carry ourselves is

sending messages back to our our brain

about whether we're safe or unsafe are

we threatened or not threatened are we

you know confident or not confident and

so how do we know that well the the sort

of earliest studies looking at this idea

about

um Body Mind feedback we're focused on

facial expressions

and so we know that there are some

mostly universal expressions of emotion

that are facial and when I say mostly

there is some debate about

um you know whether they're entirely

Universal to every single culture and

exactly which emotions they are but you

have things like happiness and smiling

sadness and crying

um you know widened eyes and surprise

those things are Universal

regardless of where you grew up and what

you were exposed to so if they're

Universal that indicates that they are

hardwired that we're born with some

Association in our brains

so if they're hardwired can you reverse

the direction of that wiring can you can

you tell people to smile and will it

make them happier and so the facial

feedback studies showed that yes indeed

you can uh that you you know and the

first ones were were smiling and and

mood uh so you know they had people some

people hold a pencil between their teeth

in a way that made them smile and others

hold a pencil between their teeth in a

way that didn't make them smile the

people who were in this forced smile

which did cause the contraction of the

muscles around the eyes which which is a

real smile even though it was a fake

smile it's not just your mouth it's your

mouth and your eyes they were in a

better mood their mood lifted they liked

the experimenter better they liked

anything put in front of them better

they felt happier than the people who

were not in this forced smile it was

then expanded to look at some of these

other Universal facial expressions like

crying and sadness

and then

people started to look at things like

movement posture I would say the

earliest work really was on breathing

um you know when we get anxious we

breathe quickly and shallowly

and if you think about

and I'm not sure that you ever had this

experience but if you know you were

called on in class say in high school

and you weren't prepared or you had the

first time you had to give a speech in

front of class you know a lot of

students speak very quickly and you can

tell that their their breathing is

shallow and they're they're breathing

quickly that's that's a fight or flight

response and so

you know can you turn that around

um and and so the the people who started

studying this called this the relaxation

response where they got people to change

their breathing and I'm gonna I'm

oversimplifying this but in essence

you're breathing more slowly and deeply

and that triggers a nervous system

response that makes people feel much

more relaxed and more confident and safe

which impacts performance of their

speech whatever they're doing yes or the

context in which it was first studied

was medicine and trying to get patients

to feel calmer before stressful

procedures

her Benson at Harvard Medical School did

some of that early work I think you know

going back to the 60s and 70s so you

know that was but it wasn't sort of

linked quite to psychology because it

was coming from medicine when you have a

person who is suffering from major

depressive disorder

uh open up open their posture just for a

couple of minutes

and then have them fill out a depression

scale afterwards they are less depressed

when you treat people with PTSD

by teaching them you know yoga poses

that open them up

it it reduces their PTSD symptoms so you

know this is coming from all different

fields of study not just from social

psychology so there's a clear two-way

relationship between my posture and how

I'm feeling and then also how I'm

feeling in my posture which communicates

outwardly to the world about who I am

and exactly I don't know if you know the

answer to this question but it made me

wonder as you were talking do you know

how old language is I actually don't

know the answer I don't know it's like

how old is language

between 150 to 200 000 years old

and how old are humans

okay so we have

about 50 000 years of people not having

sophisticated language and having to

read each other's body language which a

lot of non-human animals are doing all

the time yeah exactly I mean you know

it's it's funny we have these squirrels

in our front yard

um and they're really active and there

are all kinds of body language signals

but also these different kinds of chirps

that they make and of course I was

curious I looked this up you know is are

they do these different chirps mean

different things like certain bird calls

really clearly mean certain things and

the ethologists the animal behavior

Specialists say that in with squirrels

they don't mean specific things but it's

it's still it's it's a body language

signal so even it's not formal language

but but they they still get the sense

that there's something threatening

happening or not

or you know sometimes it's mating

related but they're not as specific as

bird calls which are closer to our

language than say these squirrel chirps

when you did that Ted Talk some 10 years

ago I think from what I read it became

the most viewed Ted Talk of all time in

its moment it's it became second most

viewed

um and it has remained there for a long

time

so it it was never it was never the most

viewed but it certainly went viral

quickly

why why do you think people care so much

about this subject matter

it's funny because you know it still

gets five or ten thousand views a day

and it that's it's 10 years old

and I still get

10 emails a day from strangers who've

just seen it for the first time

thanking me

saying they felt that I was speaking to

them

and

so there must be something Timeless

about it that I that I didn't know I was

tapping into

but I think there was some universal

truth that resonated across people

across cultures and a lot of it was

about

feeling like an imposter I mean that you

know I talked about imposter syndrome

and the feeling like you don't belong

there and it turns out almost everyone

has this imposter experience and in fact

the women who who originally studied

imposter syndrome says she wishes she

had called it the Imposter experience

because syndrome indicates that it's

pathological and it's not it's just it's

so common so what I found you know I I

was getting emails from first generation

you know

um

um uh black college students I was

getting emails from

white males literally Swiss Bankers all

of these different people retired people

um uh 12 year old kids who felt that

they didn't belong there what I think

resonated was first it's okay you're not

the only one who feels that way it's

normal but also there are some things

that you can do to to to get out of

feeling that way and so it very much is

about to me

um people feeling understood I feel like

it's when you

you know you love a song it speaks to

you it it it evokes a certain emotional

response because something about that

song makes you feel connected

and

I think something about the talk did the

same thing it made people feel

understood

um and not alone in their feelings of

powerlessness and not belonging

and it gave them a blueprint as such to

to be more

to feel more powerful yes and something

that was you know didn't require

technology that didn't really require

much of anything

um

to to change the way they felt yes and

what is that blueprint

I feel like there's we know so much more

now than we knew then

then we we were having people adopt

these expansive you know what we call

power poses for a couple of minutes and

looking at how it changed the way they

felt

um you know standing with their hands on

their hips for example or in the victory

pose with their arms up as if they had

just crossed the finish line and won you

know Usain Bolt for example and it

changed the way they felt so that was

the blueprint was was before you go into

this stressful situation you know find a

private space it's funny I said a

bathroom stall I had not scripted that

that's just what came out and so many

people say I stood in a bathroom stall

and um Power pose before the job

interview or before pitching an idea or

something like that uh and and it

changed the way I felt

and so that was the blueprint but I I

feel like the idea of being expansive is

so much more expansive than that

um it's it's the way we walk it's taking

longer strides

um swinging our arms more it's uh it's

talking more slowly it is which is

taking up temporal space it's that

breathing breathing more deeply and more

slowly it's all there are all kinds of

ways in which we can expand

that will change our feeling of agency

of power

not power over others but power over

ourselves or power too

and when that happens it activates what

psychologists call the behavioral

approach system and the approach system

causes us to see challenges not as

threats but as opportunities it causes

us to see other people not as potential

Predators or competitors but as possible

allies and Friends

it makes us more creative because we're

not feeling cognitively limited we have

more of an abundance mindset than a

scarcity mindset we don't feel as

defensive we're more able to trust and I

think maybe most important we're more

likely to act so when we feel powerful

we are more likely to take action not

just on behalf of ourselves but also on

behalf of others so when you look at

research on say bystander intervention

you know when do people step in and help

in emergencies one of the best

predictors is personal feeling

personally powerful when people feel

personally powerful they step in and

help they go hey something's wrong they

don't second guess themselves and think

well maybe I'm not the right person to

help they just do it they step in and

help

so you know it it has it has so that

that feeling of power is linked to so

many other

uh feelings and and sort of aspects of

our mindset that change how we approach

life

so as we expand

and step forward the world expands

so many people listening to this now

will be

unaware that they've been going through

their lives signaling to themselves and

to others a sense of they're in

powerlessness yes

um which is one of the first things that

I I was thinking about when I had was

reading through your work and watching

the videos was that most people don't

even know these are all unknown unknowns

so they're feeling a certain way they're

showing up in a certain way they're on

stage hiding behind the lectern in a

certain way and they have no idea the

profundity of that signal that they're

sending to themselves and others right

what is how do I know that I'm signaling

that to myself and to others what are

the signs I think I ask people to do a

kind of audit of their body of how

they're holding themselves and it's

funny when I when I'm giving a talk and

speaking to a big group of people and I

say you know now check your posture I

can hear everyone immediately moving in

their chairs even if the lights are low

but I say no don't move yet check your

posture because what you think you think

that when you're not the one performing

it your body language doesn't matter

because you again we're thinking we

think of body language as Just One

Direction what we're saying to others

but our body language is always speaking

to us as well so I ask them to think to

pay attention to what is their default

even just seated position are they

holding their shoulders up and forward

collapsing their chest are they wrapping

their hands or arms around their torso

or

powerlessness so like what's the it

really is you know your your limbs are

pulled in your shoulders are pulled

forward your chest is collapsed

um legs might be crossed and ankles

wrapped I think the wrapping of the

ankles matters more than the crossing of

the legs if you watch sports and watch

what's happening what what is the

winning team doing versus the losing

team you really see it I mean you see

you know these big basketball players

who are holding their heads in their

hands and you know leaning forward and

and they they look absolutely defeated

um even though they're they're just as

physically strong as they were five

minutes earlier when things were going

well so watching the body language of

like athletes for example and then

paying attention to what you're doing

yourself I think helps us to become much

more aware of how we're carrying

ourselves but you can do little things

like just when you get up in the morning

you know if you wake up all curled up in

the fetal position which is the most

common sleeping position 40 of people

sleep in the fetal position

and we know that when people wake up in

the fetal position

they are more anxious than people who

don't that is obviously correlational we

don't know the the causal Direction

because it might be that you're anxious

and that's why you're sleeping in the

fetal position nonetheless say you wake

up in the fetal position stretch out you

know into a starfish pose you know be

Usain bold in bed before you put your

feet on the ground on the ground one of

my research assistants said that he

would uh hold one of his hands on his

hip while he brushed his teeth like

little things that like that that sort

of

forced him to spend a little bit of time

expanding

really helped and I hear so many stories

like this people rearrange their desks

so that they have to stretch out a bit

more when they're working instead of you

know working like this over their phone

you know how are you sitting in your car

are you you know really close to the

steering wheel and kind of collapsed or

more open little things like that can

really change the way you feel so I

think it starts with just noticing how

we carry ourselves how we carry

ourselves physically how we speak how we

breathe it's so interesting because I've

got a

a guy friend of mine who is

um

would be the first to say that he's very

low self-esteem he's very disparaging of

himself so when he walks into a room

he'll

insult himself so he'll say sorry I

smile or sorry he'll apologize for

himself take up very little room sit on

the floor

um all the time and all of these things

which um

we've always kind of noticed it but when

you say all of these these things about

people can Contracting when they're they

feel powerless and taking up less space

and being sort of self-disparaging I've

always looked at that behavior in him

and thought I I don't I don't know it's

something deeper I don't know I don't

know what we can do to or he can do to

help himself what would you say to

someone like that who's feels like a you

know I mean like I was saying if you

look at the clinical studies the

research is pretty clear that you know

sort of Body Mind feedback

has significant benefits to people who

are feeling because that sounds like

sort of

unusually low self-esteem right I would

say that's several standard deviations

below the mean if if that's how he

carries himself and speaks about himself

yes so everything you described was I

just saw him

I would say you know and again I'm not a

clinical psychologist but if you look at

the Clinical Psychology literature it

very clearly shows that if you get

people to change the way they carry

themselves they feel better they feel

different

um I think you know I think to me some

of the most compelling work is the work

on combat veterans with post-traumatic

stress disorder who feel utterly broken

and often feel that they their bodies

betrayed them

and

you know are living at home are unable

to keep a job or you know keep a

relationship going

and the research you know there are

researchers who have worked with them

and taught them these you know expansive

yoga poses and the effects are dramatic

it it just makes it restores their sense

of personal power their sense of agency

and you know these are self-reports when

I talk about the behaviors they're

self-reports but the researcher who did

a lot of these studies Emma sepula who's

at Yale says that she would hear from

these people a year later saying I no

longer live at home I have a job I'm so

much happier I'm dating

and it's because of this because of the

expansive yoga poses yeah breathing the

expansive breathing expensive yoga poses

but getting into the practice of doing

that changes their lives

you know I feel strongly that

encouraging people to open up even if

it's when they're alone you know because

sometimes people close up in social

situations because they have you know

complex PTSD they have experienced

trauma and they've or they've been

assaulted they've been harassed

um and they feel that they're protecting

themselves so I think you start at home

alone you start in PRI the privacy of

your own home where you don't feel

threatened

um and then maybe you build it into

these more social situations so instead

of worrying about the impression you're

making on others you think about the

impression you're making on yourself

first that's what matters how we tell

our stories to ourselves matters

100 agree

I've been really compelled by this idea

of what I've been calling the self story

which is kind of what you're describing

there which is

um we all have this kind of story about

who we are and how valuable we are and

what we're good at and what we're

capable of that governs Our Lives yes

and it's written in every small thing we

do that I sat here with um

it's a bit of a different example but I

sat here within a championship boxer and

he was telling me that when he's on the

treadmill at home it's a very different

example when he's on the treadmill at

home if he's told himself he's going to

do seven miles and he gets to six and a

half miles and gets cramped in his leg

he will limp the remaining half a mile

because he doesn't want to want to let

in his own words the demons in and what

he what he's really saying there is this

idea that even though I'm alone and I'm

No One's Gonna know or see I'm gonna

know and I'm gonna write him to myself

story just a new paragraph about who I

am when things get tough yeah and that

and I I thought so much about this

because

um lying kind of links to this in many

ways because lying is this kind of decay

of trust but also lying to yourself so

like making a commitment to yourself

that I'm going to do something and

continually breaking the commitment to

yourself even if nobody knows I think is

just so detrimental to our our

perception of ourselves like it's a

downward spiral of the perception of

ourselves absolutely I I I you know we

we own our narratives and

you know there's research even on

looking at older people

um and physical health outcomes I mean

mortality and and the researchers found

that older people who had more positive

personal narratives about how they got

to where they are in life lived

significantly longer than people who had

these negative narratives even if they

had the same job the same kind of sort

of on the surface they look the same

they controlled for all those

differences and still found that these

the older people with these more

positive personal narratives live longer

again that's correlational but uh it's

you know it's powerful and one of the

things that happens when people feel

powerless is uh that they are less able

to be authentic right so when they when

they present themselves

say they are in a job interview they

don't come across as authentic as

somebody who feels more powerful and

what's interesting is that the body

language associated with sort of lower

authenticity

is sort of on the same Spectrum with the

body language that's associated with

outright deception

right so when people are lying to

somebody else I mean knowingly lying

the body language that matters the most

is not eye contact that's what people

focus that they think eye contact is the

most important signal it's not because

people learn very different things in

different households and cultures

personality differences that change how

people

choose to make eye contact in different

situations

what matters is the asynchrony between

the emotions conveyed with the words and

the emotions conveyed with the body

language so if you're telling a happy

story but you do not look happy your

body language doesn't look happy you

know you don't come across as authentic

if you think about you know being a kid

and maybe you lied to get out of going

to school and you told your parents that

you were sick and you really weren't

you're telling a story that's not true

that's you know supposed to be sad so

you're trying to get the the emotions

right with your words but your body

language is probably betraying you

um you know because you're actually

excited that you're going to sit at home

on the couch and eat chips and watch

reruns or at night rerun is probably a

word that nobody uses anymore but TV

um uh YouTube Tick Tock whatever so

that that those asynchranies are the

same as the asynchronies that you see

when people aren't able to be authentic

and of course in those cases that's not

that the intention is not bad they're

not in any way trying to lie to the

other person in a way they're kind of

lying to themselves

um and then that spills over into not

being able to show an honest expression

of themselves to the other

and people and and the funny thing is

that people

don't can't quite articulate so if

you're an interviewer say in that

situation

it's very hard to articulate what was

off but they know something was off and

they'll say the person didn't seem

authentic but they're not going to say

oh well their words didn't match their

body language yeah they would no because

we you know when people are lying they

can choreograph they can script the

words but it's very hard to choreograph

all the body language to go along with

it it takes up too much cognitive

bandwidth so but it does come across to

other people I think one of the fun

places to watch for this is on Shark

Tank

um is to to watch the the sort of the

body language of these people pitching

and sometimes you have people who come

across at first as like super confident

but the something about the way they

tell their story does not match their

body language and and the Sharks feel

that you see them you see them almost

cringe there's something off and they

don't get the money

and then you might have somebody who is

you know let's say uh doesn't have a

business school education uh doesn't

have as much experience but really

believes in what they're doing and and

knows what they're doing you know yes

I'm not saying that you can be

incompetent you have to be at a certain

level of confidence

but they're able to convey their

authentic conviction and passion about

this project about what they're doing

and the Sharks warm toward them you see

them lean in toward those people and

those people are more likely to be to to

to to to find investors and the thing is

those those signals aren't just

short-term signals those people are also

more likely to stick with it to inspire

other people to uh to be promoted to to

be successful in the long run it's a

real signal that you're picking up on

that you just can't fake and it really

starts with how you tell your story to

yourself is there a relationship there

as well between our body language and

our attractiveness I does my is there a

certain body language that's associated

with me being attractive if I'm single

and I'm like you know I wanna

I want to increase my chances of finding

a mate yeah it's well it's interesting

because you know people I think there

were skepticism about whether women

would be punished for

um using more dominant body language and

which I thought was kind of sad because

it just reinforces The Stereotype but

but there's Recent research showing that

first of all they're not they're not and

I'm not talking about super Alpha body

language I'm talking about body language

that's confident and warm right that

that shows I feel good about myself and

I want to be here and I'm interested in

you that body language is is more more

effective both in the workplace and in

dating situations so people

there was a study that looked at dating

profile pictures on dating apps and both

men and women with more open body

language more confident body language

were seen as more attractive

so I I thought that was that that was

very reassuring and also suggested to me

that we're making some progress if that

was true for for for you know across

genders

so yeah people want to be with somebody

who is confident but not arrogant who is

comfortable in their skin and your body

language conveys that even in a still

picture it conveys that

wow if I am the type of person that is

feels powerless inside of myself I'm

suffering with a variety of a variety of

different reasons

um I know I know that there's as you've

described there's there's things that I

can do to tell a different story to

myself publicly and privately is this is

this a form of practice that one has to

do is this like a yes is there a CIS

like a like I go to the gym and I do

some of my favorite work in social

psychology is on what's called

self-affirmation Theory when people

think of self-affirmation they think of

someone looking in a mirror saying I'm

awesome I'm you know I'm the best I'm

gonna win I'm a winner we kind of know

that when we feel bad about ourselves

saying I'm great doesn't help because

now we just feel like we're lying to

ourselves so we feel bad already and now

we're like well I feel bad and I'm a

liar sounds

exactly so

so

self-affirmation is not that

self-affirmation is this what what these

experiments and there are hundreds of

experiments now in self-affirmation they

have people list the top two or three

values or qualities that make them who

they are like if I took that value or

quality away from you you would say I'm

just no longer myself like you are just

taking a piece of me away

they then have them kind of rank them

and then take the top one and write a

couple of paragraphs one paragraph about

um you know a time when they expressed

it and another maybe about how it felt

to express it that is it that's the

exercise they then have them do do

difficult things like take a difficult

math test for example or do a debate you

know do it be in a debate competition or

or

um whatever something challenging that's

unrelated right so if say I said

um

I value music you know I if if you took

the experience of of Music away from me

I just would not feel like myself and

then I I did a math test

I would do better on the math test

after doing that self-affirmation

exercise I likely I would be likely to

on average people perform better

they also even show decreases in levels

of stress hormones like epinephrine so

the idea is that you're anchoring

yourself in who you are and what you're

doing is reminding yourself that no

matter what happens on that math test

you're still going to be that person

when you walk out and so it that math

test becomes less important which

ironically or paradoxically makes you do

better on it and so I think that's a

really good start is to just spend time

you know kind of journaling about who

are you what do you value but really

what are those qualities that make you

who you are to you not to others not how

would others describe you what removes

you like what really moves you

it's not so interesting I've never heard

that before because a lot of the time

you kind of have to have the two camps

where one campus says look in the mirror

and tell yourself a bunch of lies and

there's a whole industry about yeah

I don't like it yeah and then there's

the other cam which is Maybe

uh I don't know if this is the other

Camp necessarily but it's probably the

school of thought I've always lived in

which is you need to go and build

evidence somehow new evidence about

yourself right like counteracting the

evidence that the limiting evidence or

the limiting beliefs that are standing

in your way yeah it's like

self-perception Theory right if you see

yourself doing it you you become it yeah

and that's just a reflection on the

areas in my life where I was like very

low confidence and how I got from that

place to being higher confidence came

from

straying outside of my comfort zone and

going and doing nothing more

um building evidence that I wasn't going

to die I feel and I that works too I'm

not saying that that self-affirmation is

the only way to do it I I'm much more by

the way in Europe I'm in your Camp I

I get really frustrated with

um it's all your mindset and you just

got to tell yourself that you you you

can create your life you know like how

yeah you know I just there's so much of

that and I feel like it's so confusing

and discouraging for people because they

watch people who they think are doing

that

in short clips and they're like well

there they did it why can't I do it but

but a lot of those people didn't get to

where they are by doing that lots of

people helped them get to where they are

yeah

um or you know they did other work but

it's it's just or or maybe they're not

where they aren't even where you believe

they are they're actually really unhappy

and just putting on this Brave face

because simple cells right simple cells

simple cells and you know

um simple inspiration cells

so just just just to close off that

point about because I feel like there's

going to be people listening right now

um that identify with feeling powerless

in their everyday lives and their

working lives and relationships they uh

they can spot all the symptoms you

described of that sort of like

contracted posture the self-affirmation

piece loved it never heard that before

um

what else to get me out of that

situation I'm thinking in terms of

things that I can like either practice

or you know how do I get from there to

there

well it's funny because I I talk a lot

about

how tiny tweaks lead to big changes and

I I called you know there was a whole

sort of nudge movement like how do you

change people's behavior through these

little nudges

and I I talk about self-nudging you I'm

not a I'm not a big believer in New

Year's resolutions because they're two

they're grandiose they require a million

steps you're going to fail somewhere

along the way and then quit I believe in

just doing a little bit better the next

time okay so the next time you go into

uh give a talk for example to anyone if

somebody's afraid of public speaking but

has to to do to lead team meetings for

example

I want you to focus on changing one

thing maybe it's your breathing you

breathe more slowly and deeply maybe you

make sure that you're not wrapping your

hands around your body by holding a

bottle of water or a slide advance or

something something that forces you to

keep your hands away from your body each

time you get a little bit better and

eventually you find that you're there

and my advisor my grad school advisor

Susan Fisk who I just adore

taught me that because I almost quit

grad school

the night before my first year talk

which is where you present the first

year of research you've done just to the

people in your department I was so

scared

that I called her and I said I'm I can't

do this I'm going to quit and she said

you're not quitting

she said you're going to do it and even

if it doesn't go perfectly which it

won't

you will have done it and learned

something and gotten a little better and

each time it's going to get better she

said and I want you to give every talk

you're asked to give take every

opportunity that you're that that's

given to you to improve and eventually

you won't notice the moment when you

know suddenly you've gotten there you'll

just look back and go oh my gosh I'm

here how did I get here through these

tiny nudges so go easy on yourself focus

on only one change in that next

challenge focus on the situations that

you approached with Dread that you

execute with anxiety and distraction and

that you tend to leave with a sense of

regret

each those challenges vary for different

across people you know for some people

it's public speaking for some people

it's giving negative feedback for some

people it's

um having a difficult discussion with a

family member whatever that challenge is

for you

I want you to do change one little thing

each time you go into it

so that you can in the end approach it

with confidence execute with this calm

confidence and leave it with a sense of

satisfaction that you showed up that you

did what you could do a lot of things

that you can't control

but it's much easier to accept a

negative outcome if you controlled the

things you could right if you know how

often do people walk away from those

situations and go I feel like they

didn't see who I am

you want to walk away and say they saw

who I am and now they get to make the

decision and I can't control whether

they you know how how they evaluate me

Beyond this I did I did my best that's

where you want to get to I always think

of um confidence and self-esteem and now

powerlessness or powerfulness the

feeling of it as an upward or a downward

spiral that we're all kind of on like a

self-reinforcing upward or downward

spiral if that kind of I think it is so

if I just to kind of I think that

say something I'm confident at public

speaking on stage for example I will

show up better which means I'm likely to

get a better reaction I'm likely to feel

better after which means next time I

show up better which means and the

Spiral goes up or conversely it can go

the opposite way downwards and the

people that are on that downward so

there's many areas of my life that I

think come on and up would spiral I'm

like I'm building positive evidence it's

all going well and everyone's black and

then there's some areas of my life that

I might be on a downward spiral um I

know I've got some good friends that I

think are so far down that downward

spiral that even telling them

what your lovely professor she was a my

advice my yeah she was a professor my my

graduate school advisor they're so far

down the bottom of that spiral that they

would have quit yeah a lot of people are

living in a state of survival which I

actually think of like self-preservation

or defense yes they're like just remove

all chance of threat from my life

and in that situation you never do get

to go upwards on that spiral no oh God I

just so many people are at the bottom of

that spiral in their lives I know and I

don't know what to do about it I I it's

you know it's my responsibility but I

just think no responsibility no it's not

but but also I I do think that more

people are in that state now than they

than that compared to three and a half

years ago how come I do I think the

pandemic really took a toll on people's

mental sort of

um stability their their sense of self

and I think we're going to be grappling

with that for quite a while I mean

people who we why did it why did it have

that impact because we are wired to deal

with a crisis that lasts

like a couple months not one that lasts

three years and not one that is yanking

us around back and forth like oh we're

emerging oh Delta we're emerging Omicron

you know like it was just this

constant back and forth and we so we

were living in this liminal state where

we had one foot on the safe side and one

foot on the threatened side we get

through crises using what's called surge

capacity which is you know it's called a

network of physical and and

Psychological Resources that help us

survive but that runs out pretty quickly

and a lot of people say for the first

two months of the pandemic they felt

very productive that was Surge capacity

and it's studied in the context often of

um of of combat soldiers so like the

first battle it's it's the emergency

phase and they they are focused the goal

is clear it's shared teams operate at

their best good leaders operated their

best then they go into this regression

in between where they don't know what's

going to happen next they lose a sense

of purpose they become disconnected from

each other they withdraw then they're

back in battle in that's how this is

gone it's going to take a little while

to put the pieces back together again

but I think I think that we we have to

have some Grace

and I mean toward each other with each

other with ourselves

I don't think it's going to be fixed by

if we're too hard ourselves I think we

do have to let ourselves off the hook a

bit and go oh we've never lived through

something like this earlier and we were

talking about the things that make you

feel powerless in your body language and

the way you conduct yourselves and all

these things the things that make

someone look and feel powerful

um

I imagine it's the opposite in many

respects but specifically if I if I want

to and I want to because I really want

to leave people with actionable things

that they can they can do in their lives

if I want to

um

become a better speaker present myself

better show up better for my employees

um or be a better podcast host and I

think about this people I've never said

this before people I spend so long

thinking about how I'm sitting when I'm

speaking to someone really yeah because

because when I'm not thinking I might

like fall into a certain posture I was

I've even been thinking about these

bloody arms on this chair

sometimes I'm like this and this is my

favorite situation to be in so like my

body's open right and then sometimes I

go like this and sometimes I crunch over

into a ball and stuff yeah and when I'm

having these kind of conversations with

people I think that the best approach to

take is to be open with my body language

yes and then hopefully they'll open up

with me yeah you know that's exactly

right so I think

to really simplify it and again as I

said I don't love like choreographing

but the body language that is I think

the the most uh effective is to be open

to be kind of leaning forward you know

Palms up not wrapping yourself up not

the whole time yeah but what what you

want to be showing is I'm comfortable

and relaxed with you I'm interested in

you yeah and so I think that's that's

the posture that you want to take on and

people will mirror that one thing that

people in general people mirror each

other's body language right that's a way

that we sync up but there's one

exception and that's when there's a

power differential so if a powerful

person is interacting with somebody

that's clearly less powerful the

powerful person tends to become more

dominant in their body language and the

powerless person becomes more powerless

and we call that complementarity so I

think it's very important for people in

leadership positions to be aware that

when one of their you know employees

comes to talk to them they're probably a

little nervous and

to be very mindful of their body

language because you don't you don't

want them to shut down you want them to

feel comfortable and tell you what's

going on share their interests or their

problem or their challenge

penguin arms I never had that expression

until chapter nine of your book what's

penguin arms it's when people people

don't know what to do with their head a

lot of people don't know what to do with

their hands when they're speaking and so

they kind of like pin

they pin their wrist to their like

around their hips and their hands kind

of stick out

oh okay you're gonna look like a penguin

yeah it's it's really common for people

who are afraid of public speaking you'll

like they're like kind of moving their

hands but they're afraid to move their

arms away from their body besides

penguin arms let me just get I've got

this correctly is this penguin arms you

mean this yeah but you're talking I'm

like

yeah exactly that's penguin arms okay

and it's again because I'm I'm

I mean one of the this correlation

between how much space you take up and

how powerful you feel right again that's

me trying to take up less as little as

space as possible right and I'm

signaling so I'm speaking to you by

doing that even though regardless of

what my mouth is saying and if I'm like

this

yes I'm saying you're sending a

completely different message exactly and

people are remember the audience like

even a whole audience is responding to

you so if there's this whole

self-reinforce there's reinforcement

between you and the audience and within

the self so if you're acting that way

they might be mirroring you or feeling

kind of uncomfortable because you're

feeling anxious but you can make the

audience feel uncomfortable because

you're so uncomfortable for sure and

then and then you read that and you feel

more uncomfortable so it becomes you

know kind of re reinforced through the

interaction

this is this

interesting thing that happens to me

once in a while where I'll be speaking

to someone and it's usually someone I'm

gonna be honest right so it's usually

someone where

there's a lot of things about them but I

haven't told them

and I find it hard to hold eye contact

with them

and I notice this about myself to

certain people in my life where there's

like unaddressed things that haven't

fully spoken about and when I speak to

them I tend to not look at them and I

tend to just like be looking away or

looking down and I I will occasionally

glance over and look at them but this

broader point about eye contact and you

mentioned it briefly earlier on

what significance does it have in our

Communications and because I I find it

the hardest thing I can kind of I think

I can feign the body language I wish I

could make that I I can't give you a

simple answer and I that because there

are so many cultural differences oh

really in in when you make eye contact

so kids learn such different rules about

making eye contact

UM you know a lot of kids are taught you

don't make eye contact with an authority

figure right so and then they're seen as

lying because they're not making eye

contact uh you know um but but but

seeing it as rude to make eye contact it

means you know in a lot of East Asian

cultures eye contact you you don't hold

eye contact for as long it's seen this

very aggressive

um

in the U.S you can hold eye contact for

quite a while before people feel

uncomfortable

but it's you know it so yeah it's I

think it's one of the more culturally

constrained Expressions what am I in

primates I mean if I've watched all

these primate documentaries and it's

often the case that when primates kind

of look at each other for too long it

can it's often aggressive aggressive

yeah I I don't I and again I I would

have to defer to something like Bob

sapolski on that one but I think um I I

think that in non-human primates it you

know great apes it is it is a sign of

aggression

it is like bring it on yeah

and in certain contexts

yeah again it's so contextual and

cultural because as we were saying

before we start recording in the US if

someone stares at me in a lift I would

imagine that they're about to say hello

whereas in I don't know a rough part of

the UK

if someone stares at me I would check

where my wallet and my keys are and

assume that we had there's going to be a

problem yeah so yeah yeah I mean and

there are differences cultural

differences within the U.S too is it

possible to learn how to read people

better in terms of their body language

is that also something you can play oh

for sure I just think there's some

really great books like I I love Joe

Navarro's work he's a former FBI agent

he has a lot of images he really he's

not a researcher but grounds in the

research and has a lot of personal

experience the book that I love is is

what everybody is saying

um by Joe Navarro so I would recommend

that as a great way to start I think

there are some that are sort of like

more like

how to pick up women yeah yeah and I

don't like those this is just really

understanding people and what's

happening in an interaction I'm gonna

confess that when I was 18 I read one

such book about pickup artistry

and um it actually it actually was very

useful

had this conversation with my husband

it's so funny and

it's like the one thing he was like I

did read that oh yeah I mean yeah so it

was it was useful because I love

psychology I studied psychology at in in

school as well and um I chose that for

one of my a levels and it was useful

from that perspective I mean it's

probably why I do this now I was so

compelled to understand why humans do

what they do then I read this book which

I didn't intend to buy I'm gonna be

honest okay I've told the truth the

whole time so believe me when I say I

didn't intend to buy this book about

pickup Artistry my older brother ordered

it for home in the southwest of the UK

when he'd gone he put the wrong address

in when he was at University so it came

home and he goes I'll just keep it so I

open it and I opened up my bedroom floor

and I did not move until I'd finished

the entire book the first book where

from the first page till the last I

didn't move and it fascinated me because

it was just it was like someone turned

the lights on to this whole other

language that I'd been communicating my

whole life without knowing someone one

of the really things I always talk about

with my friends is this idea of pecking

which is this kind of invasion of

personal space that happens when you're

when you meet someone you're attracted

to yeah the music style out you lean

into their personal space

and how that signals like low value then

they lean out

um but all those things I found oh geez

I am the worst if I'm in a restaurant

and I see it a first date yeah

it is it can be so I want to slip a

napkin to the woman sometimes and like

like the guy will get up to go to the

bathroom and she is like you I'm I feel

like slipping a napkin and saying run

you know like it's just you can it's so

clear so quickly how it's going what are

the signs they are talking too much and

not asking questions oh my god um I mean

that that's I would say the most common

and and believing that they're very very

interesting

they are yeah so interesting

um and and it is leaning in and taking

into too much taking up too much space

and you can see the and I'm sorry I'm

talking about straight couples and so

because I I don't know enough about

um

other dyads but I mean in this in the

context of body language but

you see the woman clearly tensing up

she's making herself smaller to get away

she may not be literally leaning away

she's closing herself up and she women

were people in that situation when they

want to get away they often do these lip

presses like this

um and so you start to see the lip

presses

and then making themselves smaller and

you know and and leaning right in fact

um we were watching a TV show last night

that might be called The Bachelorette

this happened and the the guy was

holding her The Bachelorette like

hugging her

and like she wasn't

forcefully lean away but I was like oh

it's too close she really does not like

that but she was being very polite it

was like painful to watch so in real

life well I've had to bite my tongue at

times what's the opposite of that then

when you look over in a restaurant

because me and my girlfriend do this I

think everybody does this well not

everybody clearly but just weirdos like

us that are into psychology who look

over another couple and go they're

getting on really really great they're

into each other this is not because me

and my girlfriend we go to restaurants

we always think like is this a first

date how long have they been together

are they married are they into each

other obviously the really bad examples

is when they're both leaning out on

their phones yes and I'm like oh my God

yeah so not picking up their phones

leaning in toward each other yeah um

yeah good eye contact about balance and

in conversation expressions of genuine

curiosity where you can kind of see

their face light up when they hear the

person the other person say something

like they're really intrigued the other

one always one of them gets up to go to

the bathroom yeah and to me the the tell

is what does the other person do when

that person this makes me look like I'm

not watching you all on your dates I

swear you learn so am I

we both are and that's fine

but

when the other person goes to the

bathroom if the ones that at the table

is like you can tell their smile like

they can't stop smiling

um and maybe they're texting somebody

and they're but their cheeks like almost

you can tell her cheeks almost hurt from

smiling they're it's like they're

letting the they're so excited they

don't want to act over the top with the

person but when the person steps away

they allow themselves to feel that joy

that to me is the talent that's exciting

you're like oh that's so nice Something

Beautiful is happening and the little

grooming signals as well like when you

know they you know they might yeah that

they smell well and things like right

I guess the I guess the last piece is

about

being able to fake body language

can people do that can we fake it I mean

you can try is it effective I usually

not it because you get those

asynchranies right so it's too much

think think about all of the non-verbal

challenge channels you've got vocal cue

they call it the paralinguistic cues

like tone of voice range of voice how

quickly or slowly you speak you've got

your your fingers your hands your arms

there's too much

to do to fake it for you know uh

and and to make it consistent with what

you're saying probably you know the

greatest actors can

pretty well

but I mean to me it's just it's it's so

likely to fail that it's not even worth

trying and I I don't think it's honest I

super interesting for me because between

the age of I'm gonna say 14 and

let's go for 21. I was in my view I

think I was kind of rejected by every

um woman that I pursued

and I think I was inherently low value

and didn't realize it so when I read

these books about pickup Artistry and

all this stuff I read all this work I

tried to do what the book said and it

was unsuccessful like fundamentally

unsuccessful my life changed when I

actually changed like when my actual

opinion of myself changed and I was

saying this to my friend the other day

who's who's going through a bit of a

process where

um they're struggling with that same

thing I said you know what I wasn't able

to lie to myself I tried waiting longer

to text back I tried this I tried all of

these things and my conclusion from that

chapter of my life is there's a thousand

little things that ways we communicate

it's exactly what you just said I said

to my friend the other day there's a

thousand ways we can communicate and you

might think you can control three or

four of them but as humans that have

evolved over those 200 000 years were so

good at knowing what someone really

thinks and feels

and so I guess my question here is like

I came to the conclusion and then this

was when I was giving my friends some

advice through the days you can't fake

it you have to actually go and change

yourself story like you can know the

tips and tricks but that wasn't enough

for me

to actually get the you know

and it was honestly the thing that

changed in my life was when my opinion

of myself changed right and it's and I

it sounds so weird to say but I'm sure

nobody's listening

um the profunda the profundity of the

change I just can't I can't describe it

not not even in the relationship being

able to attract people but just in every

context like I don't know what changed I

don't know what I did all I know is that

something deep within me my story of who

I am changed and that means that when I

show up in places I stand differently

yeah your non-verbal sort of experts

talk about Inside Out change yeah right

as opposed to outside in yeah

um because people have clicked this

video right now click this podcast

because they went outside in chain I

know they do I know and it's like I

always feel like look I'm a body

language person but that doesn't mean

I'm going to give you a hat full of

tricks

it just doesn't because it's not going

to work that wouldn't be right and it's

funny too because the quote that I'm

best known for is fake it till you

become it and

what I mean by that it is fake it till

you make it to me has always meant

pretend that you know things you don't

know for pretend that you are a person

that you're not until you get the job

but what do you do then you keep faking

it

so fake it till you make it is fooling

other people

fake it till you become it is expand

allow yourself to feel powerful enough

to really understand who you are to know

what your story is to be to be more

focused on the impression you're making

on yourself than on others

um to grow to be less afraid of these

challenges

and eventually

you know maybe you know standing in

those big positions

alone feels a little awkward at first

and you're faking it but eventually you

become that person and you know that's

what happened with my student who I talk

about in the Ted Talk who had not

participated at all the whole semester

and I I was gonna have to fail her and I

said you have to participate

and she finally raised her hand on the

last class I said I'll call on you and

first of all her comment was amazing and

people's head spun like they hadn't

noticed her but she continued to use

these ideas and she came back to me

later like six months or a year later

and she said she said to me I want you

to know I'm so happy now because she had

come into my office and said I feel like

an imposter I don't belong here I'm from

this small town I was like so am I if I

belong here you do

she came back to me after graduating and

finding and actually getting into

education and not business and she said

those things that we talked about I did

and I realized I wasn't faking it till I

made it I was faking it till I became it

and now I'm the person that I wanted to

be

that makes so much sense

so expand yourself

so that you can get the evidence you

need to become the thing that you

exactly our parents and grandparents

told us to sit up straight as a show of

respect to others and kids hate that

it's

kids you know to teach kids to sit up

straight as a show of respect to

themselves

and that allows you to be more open to

to be less defensive to allow the truth

of who you are in

it's hard to confront ourselves

it takes courage

so by adopting those powerful postures

by feeling personally powerful you are

generating the courage to confront

yourself to know yourself to introduce

yourself to yourself

ladies and gentlemen today is a very big

day for me because the Diary of a CEO

book is finally out it's been published

today the 33 laws of business and life

I've spent many years writing this book

but I've spent even longer about a

decade and a half compiling the

information that exists in this book if

you are somebody that has any intent at

some point in your life of building

something whether it's building a great

team at work whether it's a football

team a netball team a business an

organization a charity anything at all

that you want to build that's going to

require you to understand people

understand how to tell great stories and

maybe most importantly of all understand

yourself then I believe this book is a

must read and you know what I've written

a book before

this is my second book but this is the

one this is the book that will give you

the most value there's a link right now

in the description below and for 30

people that order the book

and post it on their social media and

tag me you'll be getting a very special

Gold version of the book

please read it then please message me on

every social media platform and let me

know what you think

thank you a quick word on huel as you

know they're a sponsor of this podcast

and I'm an investor in the company one

of the things I've never really

explained is how I came to have a

relationship with huel one day in the

office many years ago a guy walked past

called Michael and he was wearing a

heeled t-shirt and I was really

compelled by the logo I just thought

from a design aesthetic point of view it

was really interesting and I asked him

what that word meant and why he was

wearing that T-shirt and he said it's

this brand called heal and they make

food that is nutritionally complete and

very very convenient and has the planet

in mind and he the next day dropped off

a little bottle of fuel on my desk and

from that day onwards I completely got

it because I'm someone that cares

tremendously about having a

nutritionally complete diet but

sometimes because of the way my life is

that falls by the wayside so if there

was a really convenient reliable

trustworthy way for me to be

nutritionally complete in an affordable

way I was all ears especially if it's a

way that is conscious of the planet give

it a chance give it a shot let me know

what you think

as I've read through your story I came

across this moment where there was some

academic bullying in your life and this

appeared to me to be the a real pivotal

um hurtful chapter of your life it's now

the basis for

some of the work that you're doing and

some of the things you're writing about

what what do I need to know about what

happened there to understand the lessons

that you've taken from that

um chapter

I I would rather endure any physical

pain than go through that and I have

interviewed I mean it went on for years

I became

just fair game it was because the

bullies had been so successfully

diminished demeaned stigmatized me

that anyone else who felt the need to

act out could act out against me it was

okay so

the mountain of you know social media

um uh evidence of of this bullying is

overwhelming and I can't even look

through it I have to have someone else

sort through that I am not talking about

Anonymous trolls this was other

academics

this was about me it was personal they

they they're they were not

hiding behind anonymity every person

I've interviewed for this book has been

been bullied every adult has said

it's the worst thing that ever happened

to me

and

I felt like I was dying or I wanted to

die

for a long time because it is social

death it is social death and without

community

we we are we are in a bad place I mean

we we do need each other

the facts of my life were stolen from me

my story was Rewritten so much so that I

could not do an interview without having

to correct

all kinds of disinformation about me

right so the whole you know telling the

way you tell your story to yourself

matters peace wow that was hard I had to

keep doing that to survive it because

other people were telling a story that

was a lie and that was deeply hurting me

I mean emotionally professionally

um hurting my family I mean it was

terrible I was

I I almost died I almost decided to die

and

um

and that's very common for people who

are bullied

and

I'm not through it it's those I mean I'm

I'm through the worst of it but it still

it still comes up and and and there are

there are there's disinformation in news

articles that that these bullies sort of

got out there

that will always circulate I can never I

can't get rid of all of that right it

will pop up every once in a while and

people go but yeah but I heard you did

this and you're like no

that's incorrect

um and so every time that pops up

it's it's just like a dagger again it it

is an absolute theft of your life it is

it is

absolutely

it is absolutely devastating

and in the workplace it's remarkably

common

and

the estimates by people who study

workplace bullying are that

oh more than 90 of people who become

targets of workplace bullying

dis disappear from that job and when I

say disappear I mean they're either

fired because the bully flips it around

and they're seen as the difficult person

or their move to a different department

or they quit because they can't endure

it

or they die of a stress related illness

or they take their own lives

um

suicide rates are very high for for

adults for children and adult bullying

targets

if I was in your household around that

time what would I have seen and I asked

that question because

people never get to see that right they

get to see either silence or they might

get to see a statement but

um

you know what I'm thinking right now is

that my boys are going to hear this and

they're gonna be laughing and they're

gonna be they're gonna be saying that

I'm exaggerating you know like but who

cares why if they say that but I it's

still like I'm so afraid of them still

um

I was you know Raising a Son who is just

a lovely remarkable person I'm like

I can't believe that he

grew up to be such a wonderful person

because for so much of his teenage life

I was going through this and it was

so hard to be present but I had to be

like I need

there was this constant conflict that I

had how much do I tell him about

um

how much do I Shield him from it can I

Shield him from it because

you know my God my husband who

was just like wanted so desperately to

fix it for me and he he's a scientist

and he understood very well the

statistical arguments as better than

than most people in my field do and he

would engage with these bullies and that

would escalate he was he was for sure

traumatized by it

um

I was just curled up in a ball and then

amazingly I was still able to go out and

speak and for that hour

I was safe

and and then I would I would hide again

and

I was just so afraid

uh

I just felt like I was dying I would

just I think almost every day I said I

feel like I'm dying

uh it was it was I

it just the darkest of dark

um

they

like I'm grieving

still the loss

of

again the facts of my life

and a future that I thought I was going

to have even though

I and this is that whole Silver Lining

thing I'm actually happier now

in the life that I'm in

I had to leave my job I wasn't forced

out at all and in fact I want to be

clear because this isn't the bullies

love to say that I was denied tenure I

was not denied tenure I chose to leave

my Dean was incredibly supportive of me

I could not live in that toxic house

anymore it was filled with fumes it was

I I I would have died if I had stayed so

in Academia period you left your job yes

my my full-time you know tenure track

position and that's after I had been

promoted twice like I had worked so hard

to get there

I had an excellent record of research

um

I wanted to stay there I I wanted to

continue to do work around sexism and

racism I

I thought maybe I would eventually get

into the administration I wanted to like

that was the life that I thought I

hadn't and

they made it impossible for me to stay

yes it was my choice and no it wasn't my

choice

um they sold my future

now I have a different one maybe that's

maybe that's better but it doesn't take

away the pain of that loss it's sort of

like

it's like

losing a spouse a spouse dying Young

and then you get remarried a few years

later and you're happy in your new

marriage and maybe you're even happier

but you'll never stop grieving

the loss of that first person right it's

that's how this feels

um

and that's why it's taking me like four

years to write this book

because it's a lot it's a it's a lot to

tell my own story I'm scared and it's a

lot to

hold other people's stories because I

know how they feel I know how hard it is

I mean

I've interviewed people whose adult

children have taken their own lives

because they were so badly bullied in

the workplace

it was it was just torture

my

collaborators were tortured

and

lost so much

fighting this

disinformation and just this this

meanness

my son in the last six months has had

two friends who were taking psychology

courses

learn this disinformation about me in

their psychology courses because again

it just sort of lives on and so now he's

coming going

I don't understand

can I ask you everyone's question here

because I

did lots of research on you didn't

really come across any of that

it's amazing I didn't so I don't know

the details of it um what I what I've

have inferred from what you're saying is

that people try to discredit you yes and

your intentions yes is that accurate yes

okay so they try to discredit you me my

intentions my my actions

um

and to prevent me from

doing more work doing more work right

makes sense yes

what do you think their motivations were

I can tell you that

a small percentage of people I believe

are what I call primary bullies like

they are the ones who get the ball

rolling

if they're alone and I you know we

chatted about this earlier but if

they're alone they're just yeah

but when they recruit people then they

become bullies

and

they tend to be repeat offenders

what they want is status and recognition

they feel that they have not gotten as

much as they deserve

and they resent people who they perceive

as getting more than they deserved

and so when they perceive that

they'll start to go after that person in

little ways and I call that the bully

test the bullies testing to see if

people will

allow that to happen and if people don't

push back and this is where bystanders

could get involved right away and say

that's not okay

I so wish more people had done that in

my case

then they escalate very quickly and they

are basically they are gaining status by

taking away your status

it's I don't think it's about

power as much as it is about status

there are people who are very powerful

but still feel like they're not getting

the recognition and status that they

deserve and their bullies it is

motivated I believe in general again I

don't know what motivated my bullies by

a need for status

and

one of the commonalities across bullies

is that they tend to have a scarcity

mindset

they see the world as everything is zero

sum everything's affixed buy and that

means if if somebody else is getting

status or success it's somehow taking