I think out of everything

[Music]

she was worried about me do you know

what I mean like that was her last

thought like

[Music]

Davina McCall she's a TV presenter a

fitness fanatic multiple times

best-selling author rarely off our

televisions and what you see is what you

get it's good to be back after big

brother I thought what else can I do to

get famous so I was always a bit of a

show-off mum you made a mistake how

great I am that's at the back of

everything why

I did cope with my mum at 15. I did it

with my sister at 14. you were doing

drugs yeah like all drugs all my

problems I left my job no money I had

nothing I will literally do anything to

stop feeling like this I'm gonna find

someone for help I'm [ __ ]

ten years ago you lost Caroline

your half-sister it was definitely the

worst thing that ever happened to me

I was just trying to be really strong

for her and I kept saying to her I'm

gonna be fine

she'd put a fence around her and I

thought I'm [ __ ] climbing over the

fence and I'm gonna get in don't wait

for somebody to say that you've got six

weeks to live because the best seven

weeks of my life with my sister were

those last seven weeks of hers

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enjoy this episode tavino

[Music]

what was your first

defining

moment

oh

um definitely

uh realizing the moment I realized my

mum wasn't coming back to pick me up so

I got taken to my granny's my paternal

grandmother most amazing woman called

pippy

got taken to her house in the country

which I knew really well I used to spend

quite a lot of time down there with her

and my mum wasn't with my dad she was

with another man but I didn't kind of

question that they'd spit up but I

didn't I didn't know that or kind of

understand I don't think in my head I

realized what was going on

and she said I'm going on on holiday

and you know I'll be I'll be back

and I was like okay great and I stayed

with my granny and then after a couple

of months I thought

she coming back but then I thought I

didn't want to this was such a different

time you know I'm 55 so this would have

been over 50 years ago

it was such a different time that you

didn't ask people children didn't go

where's Mommy gone or when's mummy

coming back

I knew that I was a guest at my Granny's

house but I wasn't it had all been

planned my granny had been given my

custody my dad was coming down every

weekend to be with me

um they were sort of sharing custody but

my dad was trying to make money in

London and my granny was taking care of

me day to day

and it had all been sorted but I didn't

know that because they just thought well

she's young she won't really remember or

realize let's all just brush it under

the carpet and it's so interesting

because nowadays with my children

everything that happens we're like how

do you feel about that are you okay

let's talk it through blah blah blah

just didn't happen back in those days so

I grew up thinking that my mum had left

me

um and had enough come back so at about

probably four maybe six months after

after she'd gone

I realized that I wasn't gonna live with

her again but I was left feeling guilty

because I felt like my granny was

looking after me

and

she didn't want me in some way like not

that she didn't she was so loving to me

but somehow I was overstaying my welcome

so I think that was a defining moment

because it's set up a chain of events a

fear of Abandonment that kind of made me

make some really stupid decisions all

through my teenage years into my

twenties

um

and and something that I've worked

diligently on since my early 20s to let

go of

why did your mother do that

well my mum

grew up in France with two parents who

were very loving but didn't know how to

um

give her their time

so I think my mum needed

time and contact but they just gave her

a lot of money they were they were quite

wealthy and they just you know at 18

they gave her a lump sum of money she

went spent the whole lot on clothes and

each other on she got a food disorder

she's very thin it was the 60s she was

like a model she had a fade done away

nose job she she was incredible looking

lots of drugs quite a lot of drink like

crazy fun lady met my dad my dad was

super hot like young guy they were an IT

couple he was so in love with her she

was completely out I could probably a

sex addict when I when I looked back at

her life and unashamedly so the French

very she's French French are very

different about sex she was kind of you

know she was it's only bodies that was

her catchphrase like

you know oh

it's only bodies and you'd think no

that's someone's husband like that is

you know David so looking back she she

wasn't well herself but she was so young

like this was we're talking 22 23 when

she met my dad she'd already had a child

at 16 been forced to marry the father of

that child they'd got divorced then she

met my dad so she was

troubled herself right

and my Dad tried to help fix her but it

just wasn't going to work and she ran

off with someone else

um having had several Affairs and

everything and my dad was broken-hearted

absolutely broken-hearted and the courts

in the UK because I was born in the UK

and had been brought up here gave my

granny and my dad custody which was so

rare

so

um

I I I'm not sure how hard she fought I'm

not sure that she did but

um that was what happened but I did go

and see her in the holidays but that was

quite crazy like what did you see I oh

my God like what didn't I see I mean my

mum would

she would wear this was quite a Funny

Story I mean in some of it makes me

laugh now but it would be she'd go out

with me like in a floor-length electric

blue coat

and we'd get out and then she'd go like

that to someone and I'd think she'd

flash my God she's naked yes like she'd

be naked underneath her coat and she'd

flash someone she'd think it was

hilarious

and I'd just be like oh God somebody

please like make the world disappear

but at times

it's really hard to explain but I loved

my mother

like I really wanted her to pull some

mummy

business out the bag like I was like

come on

you can do this and

sometimes she'd give me a hug and I'd

think oh my God this is it like this is

what it feels like to be hugged by

mother but then other times you'd be

reading her right it'd be like well I've

got to be

I've got to be a sweet little girl oh no

I'm gonna have to take care of you well

like now I have to be really good fun

I've got I need to entertain you it's

always weighing a thousand different

hats to see how she was going and my

granny used to say to me when we did

start talking about it when I was older

she said we'd have to like

kind of it would be funny for a month

when you came back from France you'd be

a little bit on edge and we'd have to

just really get you back into your

favorite foods a routine at bedtime

safety re-ground me

so when I say I'm half done half Wild

Child it's because of that life that

I've had like

drugs at 12 with my mum like you were

doing drugs yeah like smoking weed at 12

Coke at 15 14. even I did cope with my

mum at 15. I did it with my sister at 14

you know it was like it was there was no

and then I'd get back to the UK and it

would it would be back into your

second-hand clothes and sort of safe

small life like simple my life was very

simple I mean I say secondhand clothes

just to give you an idea I was in my

grandad's jumper and an old pair of

jeans and I get to Paris and they go

what are you wearing his loads of money

go and buy some Posh loafers and get

your hair done and I'm 12 like I look

like a proper Lolita but I and I'd

quickly realized that my life in Paris

and my life in in the UK they must never

know about each other because if if they

knew

in the UK about my life in Paris they

wouldn't let me see my mum and I didn't

care how mad she was

I still wanted to see her that does that

make sense yeah

so my sister also was my lifeline in

Paris so my sister who's six years older

than me even though we did do drugs

together and I know that sounds bad but

she was my rock like she was my she

grounded me when I was in Paris so we

stuck together we understood what mum

was like we worked her together Caroline

yeah Caroline yeah

and then my mum you know but I I did

like going to Paris and also because I

was young and they didn't stop me from

doing anything it's crazy

having sat here with um stand-up

comedians I remember Jimmy Carter said

to me he said often it's assumed that

comedians themselves are depressed and

that they're cracking jokes to kind of

cheer other people up in an attempt to

cheer themselves up but he said to me

you should actually ask them which one

of their parents is depressed which one

of their parents were they trying to

please and entertain

you said earlier you know did I have to

be this one day or did I have to be a

joker did I have to take care of her was

your personality shape but that that

desire to

so to keep her in good spirits we'll win

over her affection

I think it taught me some amazing skills

and reading people

so um also my granny was unbelievably

good at this as well so people used to

think my granny was psychic because

somebody would walk in the room and

she'd go are you okay and they'd walk in

smiling but there would be a an eyebrow

raise or a flicker of an eye or

something and she'd go

you're right and they go oh God

like read me you can see straight to him

I feel like being with my mother she

could walk I could hear by the way she

walked

what person she was going to be when she

walked through the door I could hear the

steps coming and I'd think I know how to

behave the minute she walks through that

door

it's an amazing gift

and that's how I choose to see

everything that's happened to me I am

absolutely not a victim sure some of

it's been hard and it's like you said

I'm happy we were talking just before we

started I'm happy and yes life throws me

curveballs

but I choose to learn from those and

still be happy rather than cling onto

the curveball and let it pull me down

but I often wonder whether it's it was

the hardship

that made me when you know small wins or

little winds in my life were massive oh

yeah you know a hug from my mum that

felt a little bit like a parental hug

rather than a needy or an angry or

that would be a huge like I'd done out

on that for a month I'd be like but yeah

but I got a hug two weeks ago that was

epic

you know so I think you hold on to these

little things but I don't know some kids

might not they might not see or feel

that thing because they don't have that

in them I wonder whether we are born

with it it's such an interesting

concept positivity can you make yourself

positive

if you aren't

that have you ever spoken to the

speakmans I remember going on this

morning the speakmans are a couple Nick

and Eva

they're on this morning as kind of

psychology experts they kind of they're

like they help you train yourself out of

patterns of behavior those guys said

something that if you are a negative

person at the end of you know it's

raining and it's raining for the third

day in a row

you finish your negative sentence with

but luckily

and you have to say but luckily and then

think of something but luckily

but luckily it was so dry in the summer

it does mean that the reservoirs will be

full and you finish every negative

thought with a positive and they said it

takes about two to three weeks

to naturally start thinking but you know

that's probably not a bad thing

but it's just remembering to do that is

so hard

when you were when you were like 16 17

you know you said you'd started doing

drugs with your mother in in France but

what did you want to be when you were

older if I'd asked yourself I probably

probably need to clarify actually that

me and my mum only did drugs twice okay

I mean I know that's twice times too

many in my book but

I don't want to give this impression

that she and I were taking tons of drugs

together because that would be a false

impression okay

I just needed to plant so that put that

there yeah but

um

what did I want to be when I was 16.

yeah I was quite nihilistic I think in a

way I wasn't thinking about anything

except for the weekend

and where was I going to go and what

club could I go to and how could I go

out and what how could I party and that

was beginning I moved to London when I

was nearly 14. and when I moved to

London suddenly the safety of the

country had disappeared and I started

finding ways to go out and take drugs

and find people that took drugs in

London

I was living with my dad my stepmom and

they were very kind of solid straight

people but

my life did slightly change then so I

wasn't really thinking about anything at

that point really the time when I

started forming

an idea and I was basically just a

show-off would have been 18. I was

basically just a show-off yeah

um because

I think because I had this fear of

abandonment

if I was if I did look at me look at me

enough look at me I'm here everybody

don't leave me ah needy people pleaser

everybody like me like that that's what

that's who I was and actually what drugs

did for me at that time

was they made me feel

safe

they made me feel like I was being

hugged in that maternal way that they

filled this hole that I had here and

then as soon as the drug started running

out the hole would feel like sort of the

hole would be there again and I think oh

my God where's the nearest thing I can

get you know

um man laughter attention drug like help

fill the hole so I was always a bit of a

kind of

you know a bit of a show-off

and at 18 you drop out of University

nearly went to University

um didn't go to university

and this is always something that I

want to say to to kids I didn't really

know what I was doing I was an absolute

car crash I would say until I was 23 24

. so when I was 19

I

um I'd left school I went to Australia

for a few months

I came back and I thought I'm going to

save up money I'm going to get you know

go working I'm going to save up some

money I'm going to try and get enough

money to go back to Australia and live

there I loved it out there I was clean I

wasn't taking any drugs I was just

driving to the beat I mean it was such a

different me and I liked that me that

was the nun like my nun was freed in

Australia and I thought I quite like

this person I like who I am

and then A girlfriend of mine said

I'm going to Santa pay for two weeks do

you want to come and I was like yeah but

I haven't got much money because I had

all my savings and stuff and I didn't

want to delve into that she had quite a

lot of money and bless her she came on

the coach with me from Victoria down to

Santa pay and her parents had a house

there and then I started dipping into

the savings and then in two weeks I'd

spunked

800 pounds that I'd saved up for my

flight to go back to Australia and I

never went back and that was a kind of

you know that was the Wild Child me

dancing on tables in the Capture One

Santa pay until God knows what time in

the morning hitching a lift off people

in Ferraris trying to get back to I mean

awful danger danger danger everywhere

how I'm still alive I've got no idea

um

but hilarious you know it was just part

of my path but that meant that I never

went back to Australia and I I got a job

as a waitress I was a really really good

waitress

I loved waitressing did you ever do that

well my mum had a restaurant when I was

super young so I did did it a little bit

but I was so young that it was I was

more just of a gimmick you know he'll

get loads of tips because he's yeah

um but not not properly no I learned a

lot I bet you did

um I learned a ton from working in that

restaurant yeah about people in customer

service and stuff and then I worked in

like you know there was a shop called

Republic like retail a lot I worked a

lot I did that as well what did you

learn

um well just people I mean people skills

and what people want and that the

customers the most important person you

said people pleaser yeah I mean that's

my natural that was my natural habitat

so I'd go and I'd like make people feel

amazing while they're having their meal

and make sure that they had the best

service ever and it felt like a win to

me you know at the end of the night I

thought I've done a really good job I've

made loads of people really happy and

that made me feel good about myself so

it was a great job for me

when did you first realize that you

wanted to do something in media TV

um or was it more yeah no so that that's

quite a good story so I was working I

got a job at models one after the after

the and it was by chance it was complete

fluke I got a job at models one working

on Stephen

the mail model section at models one I

was a Booker for the male models I mean

I'm telling you 19 or 20 year old me

walking in there I was like

this is the best

of her all these gorgeous men okay I

fell in love every 30 seconds for the

first week

um and then what was interesting it just

became they just became normal I was

like oh there's another good looking guy

whatever

um desensitized yeah it's fun it's so

funny though how quickly that happens

but I'm still friends with loads of them

now again it was a great time in my life

slightly car crashed lots of drugs lots

of kind of Madness but also a very

kind of good time and time in terms of

work and having fun so I was at this

agency loads of beautiful models

everywhere I get approached by this guy

who knows I love music and he said you

want to run a club with me at

subterranea and I said yeah great and he

said bring all the beautiful people so

these club nights

caught the attention of somebody at MTV

who was going to launch MTV Europe and

they needed to for the launch of MTU TV

Europe and Amsterdam get loads of

celebrities from the UK to Amsterdam but

do it in a really cool MTV way

so me and this girl called Sarah

blondstein and

um a guy called Graham we were in charge

of entertaining the celebrities from

Victoria train station to Amsterdam and

back

and it was like Duran Duran

um zodiac mind warp I mean it was really

really fun

and I dressed up as a cleaning lady

lipstick on my teeth curlers in my hair

a tea earn full of champagne and it was

riotous and at the end of that night

when we were heading back

um from Amsterdam on the plane

I thought to myself

I'm gonna work at MTV that is the best

place

those are the best people and while I

was there at that night and this is

what this is another defining moment

that night when I'd gone

I said to someone can I get your number

because I'd love to kind of look at job

prospects at MTV would it be all right

and he's like yeah sure

like I had the number and I thought I'm

gonna I'm gonna call this guy and then I

called him and I said you know would it

be all right can I um to sort of send

you a Show reel if I did a show will

because I'd like to be a presenter on I

didn't even know the word Vijay then on

MTV and he was like yeah sure sure

and I started making show reels and I

must have sent him like

three a year and relentlessly called him

until he said please stop calling me

after a couple of years he said could

you just

like I can't give you a job at the

moment we only want European presenters

and I said can you give me someone

else's number

and I'll call them instead and he went

yeah you can take Mike Catherine's

number so I took my Catherine's number

and eventually a year later Mike Calvin

said

there's a vacancy so I'm 24.

I've just got clean

I'm I'm six months clean and sober I'm

absolutely radioactive I can't believe

I'm sober I still can't believe I'm

waking up with dry sheets

that my pillow you know we're talking

about small wins my sheets were dry in

the morning and I'd know when I woke up

and I saw daylight and I think I know

this is morning

this is amazing that's such a win I

think it's so dry yeah sweating I used

to sweat in bed withdrawing at night and

my sheets were dry is this what what

drug causes that so heroin so I I was

um in the end

um addicted to heroin for maybe the last

three months of my using but the nun

took over I think at that point and was

like you are addicted now you have to

stop what was that moment that where and

what was can you really zoom in on that

moment of you reach a point and you go

this has to change

[Music]

so my best friend had said she was going

to take me to Santana she didn't use or

drink really she'd Had a Brain Injury

when she was younger and she couldn't

for 10 years so she didn't

and she got me into her car and I was

like I'm so excited about going to see

Santana I was probably what Santana um

it's a band ah

Stephen Bartlett I know sorry go and do

some revision okay can you just say

something

sometime I'm gonna like them really okay

um and

I got in the car

and she shut the doors and she said I'm

actually not going to take you to

Santana

I need to tell you some things I was

like yeah and she said

I know that you've been lying to me

weirdly I'd been off heroin for a month

at that point because I'd been away I'd

done a geographical I've gone away

looking after someone's uh nanny for

someone for two weeks and got clean and

then I'd I'd also been with my mum in

Morocco so I had no heroin for a month

but I had just come off the back of a

24-hour cocaine vendor which had made me

realize that heroin wasn't my problem

all drugs were my problem if I if I

wasn't taking heroin I couldn't take

cocaine normally either I I couldn't

just take it for four hours and then go

to bed I had to take it for 24 hours I

was an animal I thought oh my God I'm

I'm not just addicted to heroin heroin's

not it's all drugs I've got to stop

she gets me in the car and she goes I

know you've been lying to me we all know

you've been lying to us all your friends

and you are the topic of conversation at

every dinner party I go to and this

shame

starts piling on and I

I

started feeling a bit well [ __ ] you to

her and this is this is virtually my

only friend I've got left

and I do say well [ __ ] you like

[ __ ] you I didn't really know what to

say because I couldn't really argue with

what she was saying

and I said yo I didn't want to go and

see something really childish like I

didn't want to go and see Santana anyway

get out the car I'm trying to get out

the car she's slightly shut the doors

it's all eggy awkward slam the door walk

away from her immediately burst into

tears and think I'm not gonna turn back

around and let her see I'm crying you

know get inside go straight to bed my

parents you know I was um sleeping on a

camp bed in my in my dad's sort of

wardrobe I'd move out of my boyfriend's

home

his fault that I was using I'd got worse

I'd left my job I thought that was the

thing that was making me use I'd got

worse I had a car but no money to put

Petrol in the car I had not put nothing

I was on this Camp bed and I was sort of

walk into the like my room which wasn't

really room it was a cupboard

sit on the bed go to sleep

and then an hour later I wake up and I

think I'm gonna find someone for help

I'm [ __ ] I can't do this anymore I

phoned this woman who I knew was clean

and it was as if she'd been expecting my

call she goes oh hi Davina

and I was like I was just wondering if

you're going to a meeting

um tomorrow she's like yeah yeah I'm

going at six o'clock you know World's

End come and meet me there

I was like oh yeah you know I'm just

interested to see what you know like

what it's like it's just yeah great come

along if you want

she didn't ask me what's going on she

didn't ask which was exactly right

and the next morning I woke up

and I felt so full of Shame and I

thought I'll go and see Sarah so I went

to see Sarah at work at lunchtime

sobbed I said I'm not expecting you to

believe me

and I know I'm gonna have to prove

myself but I just wanted to let you know

I want to change and I want to do

something about it and I'm going to go

to a meeting tonight and I could see a

slight sort of

are you really like is this really gonna

happen I just thought I I don't know how

much more I can give you tell you but I

really really mean it so I went to a

meeting that night

just spent the next two weeks going to

meetings every day well and for 90 days

after sobbing just sobbing in every

meeting of surrender

I don't care what I have to do I will

literally do anything to stop feeling

like this and N A taught me how to live

and how to change

and how to heal myself I I owe an a my

life literally

but it also gave me my career

and weirdly having tried to get a job at

MTV while I was using all those years

the the time they say come in for an

interview we're going to finally screen

test you after three years of trying I

was six months clean

and I didn't mess it up you know I

turned up on time in fact I turned up a

bit early that was new for me

um I turned up clean and smelling like

flowers and with a smile on my face and

color in my cheeks that was new for me

you said and I taught you how to heal

what did you learn about healing

and what did you learn about why you

were

addicted to narcotics hmm well I learned

about fear of Abandonment I probably

hadn't heard that as a phrase

then I didn't understand from listening

to other people talk about their

experiences sometimes I think oh no that

wasn't quite my experience I don't think

that's why I used and then I remember

hearing someone and thinking

that's exactly me that whole and it

never fills up and you're constantly

trying to fill it with anything and then

when they said here is where I'm

learning to fill it myself and I thought

that's what I want I want to line the

whole with something impermeable

that means it will fill up and never

empty again

and there are steps in Narcotics

Anonymous and any 12-step program and

you know if you work through these steps

and it is like people would go oh it's

like a cult you know it's really bad but

I did replace my addiction with

addiction to Narcotics Anonymous but I

know which addiction I'd rather have

like

I went all the time often twice a day

because it was the only place where I

felt completely normal I'd be around

other people going yeah I felt like that

oh yeah I did that oh God I messed up

this or oh yeah I had

um

you know Liaisons with people that I

didn't

I didn't care about I didn't know but I

thought it would fix me you'd think God

these people are so honest it's

I've I realized the power in honesty I

mean that's your thing right

Speak Your Truth yeah

powerful yeah

freeing oneself isn't it hmm

so I learned I learned everything to

help me I did have like

another transformational moment

when I got hypnotized

um for a job that I was doing about

eight years ago

and that was like

that was when the impermeable seal went

on my fear of Abandonment and it was

unexpected because I wasn't going to the

hypnotist about that I was going to the

hypnotist about

not feeling anxious going in a submarine

to a thousand meters under the sea

tiny three-person submarine where you

can't stand up and there's no loo and it

takes 40 minutes to get to the surface

again and I thought I don't get

claustrophobia but I don't want to find

out at a thousand meters under the sea

that I am indeed claustrophobic so I

thought I better go and get hypnotized

just to make sure

and that was have you ever done hypnosis

no ah man I mean if you've got an issue

that

is something that you've worked on a lot

and it's hard to let go of

I mean I didn't even think really that

my fear of Abandonment issue was still

there but I do think

I do think it was and we did some

regression work

where I went back to me in the kitchen

looking at my granny thinking my mom's

not going to come back

and I don't know what to do and I feel a

bit guilty

I think I've overstayed my welcome and

the hypnotist said go get go get that

Davina

take it by the hand he said where's your

favorite place in the garden

said the oak tree

so he said take her to the oak tree so I

took her over to the oak tree little me

four years old

and he said okay sit her down

and sat her down and he said you know

Comfort I said she looks worried

and he said comfort her

I said I feel silly I don't know what to

do it's me I it feels weird and he said

imagine she was one of your own children

comfort her as if she was your child

so I put I put my arm around her

and I thought okay this is easier and

then her head went on my on my chest and

I was stroking her hair

I said I don't know what to say

I kept thinking he's looking to me to

say something profound and I've got no

idea how to do this

and he said well why don't you tell her

it's all gonna be okay

and I really started crying like really

crying

and he said the same thing it was up

and I said it was not going to be okay

I take drugs I make stupid decisions I

put myself in danger it's bad

and he won't but look at you now

and it was like

oh my God

Look At Me Now

I'm great

and it was like everything went you know

all the cogs and the wheels and my brain

all went click

I am gonna be okay

I looked at her

and I got like her head in my hands and

I was like you are gonna be okay your

life

is going to be amazing

and it will be full of you know ups and

downs but you are going to be okay

and he said you can take it back

let's take her back so I went back to

the kitchen

to down in the seat and she's smiling at

me and then he says we can leave now but

he said before before we leave I want

you to just turn around and look at her

one last time and tell me what she looks

like

she looks happy

and he said great and then he brought me

around I was like bawling

this is amazing what's happened what's

just happened and he said

we've planted a seed and he said let's

just wait and see what happens there he

said this this was basically to stop you

feeling like you're gonna

be abandoned at the bottom of the sea

but actually I think maybe we've done

something bigger here it might be kind

of amazing what happens

and a couple of things happened after

that that where I said actually it's not

okay

uh to treat me like that I would never

have said that before because I was

worried you'd abandon me if I I stood up

to you and said

not okay I'd think oh you might not like

me anymore

I I it was very important that everybody

liked me

and suddenly I was like actually I can

stand up for myself in a non-aggressive

way

and not actually mind if you like me or

not because I'm doing it for me

oh my God it was

and I feel like from that moment I've

been a different person

in all of my decisions

in my outlook on life

it's been Mega so your your career then

in TV

one of the things I read is that it was

heavily fueled we kind of talked about

this before we start recording by your

desire to be famous yes I mean the the

first MTV thing so I I'd wanted to be a

singer another desire to be famous I

wasn't good enough I was like I would be

an amazing backing vocalist

I my my nickname at home is the

harmonizer I can't listen to a track

without harmonizing to it I absolutely

have to that's annoying at some point

then isn't it yeah because all my kids

are like oh my God in in the car I'm

always like hmm

and you know like if they're going oh my

God like stop if I could have turned my

family into the Von traps and I really

tried like that we all made them all do

choir I all had to kind of do singing

lessons they just weren't buying it at

all and I'm so upset about that but if I

could have had the Von traps that would

have been my dream anyway

failed singer

what else can I do to get famous all of

this obviously mum

look at me

you made a mistake

look how great I am that's at the back

of everything right

and

I mean for example when I was 15 or 16

and I I did quite well in my o levels

they were o levels back then how old I

am and um I called up my mum to tell her

I'd done quite well on my own levels she

was really angry

because she felt like I was just trying

to show her up or that you know don't

think that you're she was drunk she was

drunk she took it badly she's like felt

that it was me trying to say that she

wasn't good enough or that she'd done

something you know I and I was so

confused by that

um that I thought I'm gonna show you

like I'm gonna make you want to

anyway my aim was I want to get my own

show on MTV that's what I want and I got

my own show on MTV and I presented the

first show and I went up to the dressing

room afterwards and I cried and I cried

and I cried and I couldn't figure out

why I was crying and I called my sponsor

which is something you you have a

Narcotics Anonymous who's there to help

you decipher yourself

and she said right you know we picked it

apart and picked it apart

and I said it hasn't fixed the whole

it

it didn't make me think oh my mum's

gonna want me back and then to top it

all off my mum did call me and say she'd

seen it because you could see it in

France because it was European

and she said what you know you think you

should stop pulling the faces you pull

these faces and I was like

that was not the desired effect I did

not want you to think that I wanted you

to think wow you're amazing you know

and um

so it was

a really

heavy moment and then I thought wow I

need to warn everybody

you know being famous

you've got to do it for the right

reasons I did it for the wrong reasons

and now I'm here and I've got this job

and I'm on the wheel and I don't know

how to you know I can't get off I didn't

want to get off I mean I was enjoying my

job don't get me wrong working MTV were

some of the greatest years of my life my

life but

actually it was probably his life so

I've had lived about 10 different lives

in my lifetime

and MTV was one of them

but I think that that realization that

the thing that I'd been aiming for that

I thought was gonna fix me and it didn't

was like again the end of something

and the start of another phase of my

life okay well you're gonna have to find

it inside

somehow

and that that hole You referred to is

that whole filled now filled

yeah I mean I've 100 I've never been so

happy

like I can't even

I sat oh

do you know it was really funny because

I said I said

to my boyfriend this morning I said I'm

going to do this thing with Stephen

Bartlett this morning and he was like oh

my God I said I am not going to cry

I'm like

I haven't done Piers Morgan specifically

for this reason because I was like I am

not gonna sit under but it's weird

because it's the thing it's took I could

talk about my pain until the cows come

home and not feel a thing because it's

so far removed from me and it was a long

time ago and I've processed and

processed and processed it

but feeling happy like is so alien like

a hundred percent like joyous

sitting on the train

and just feeling so good this morning

and it's not like

um Euphoria or a druggy happy or a fake

high it's content

oh my God it's like I can't I cannot

quite believe it

and I'd and I don't

you know I've been walking forwards

but I don't know how I got here just

walked forwards

you know but settling settling down

um I feel like I've I've grounded in a

way that I've never had before

and you know I think it's so important

to talk about this stuff because

at 55 if you'd have said to 30 year old

me

what's life going to look like when

you're 55 I'm gonna say really sad

I probably won't be doing

TV anymore it won't want me and I'd be

really boring

and I won't be having fun anymore and so

and I think I could be wrong or wrong

like I've got to go and tell everybody

quick tell everyone it's gonna be okay

Stephen

it's gonna be okay

never had someone say to me that

their feelings of Happiness make them

emotional oh

and when I think about it oh well

because I'm grateful and I think because

you know we were talking about what

makes you a positive person

I think it's because you think it it's

been a roller coaster right it's it's

for you it's been a roller coaster

but like it's not about the lambo or the

house or the Mansion it's about this and

your roller coaster and your journey to

money and making it and then realizing

it doesn't fix you and then you fixing

Yourself by being on a journey of

self-discovery which

you massively are by talking to all

these different people you're like

taking little bits from everything that

somebody says to you and think I'm going

to use this for me that was a great tool

thank you very much I'm going to have

that

it's like you are healing yourself this

is your n a meeting this is this is your

this is your recovery

yeah this is your recovery and how

amazing is that great it's crazy

privileged yeah but in you know and it's

just gonna these are all seeds that are

planted in you that just continue to

grow

so life gets better you know Mother

Nature throws you crepey knees and

crepey elbows and crow's feet

that it also throws you a full heart and

a peaceful mind

your career your your career in TV that

whole journey it's been one of the most

incredible

careers that I think most people could

ever hope for in any industry ever you

know you the top of your your game

um I first came to learn about you

because of big brother but there's a

career before that and there's a long

long career

after that

when you reflect on what advice you

would have given yourself or like why

you made it to the very top of that that

pyramid what is the answer Davina

this is another thing that I Marvel at

every day because

I've been many times in my career where

I've thought

this is it it was interesting after Big

Brother finished

um I contacted a friend of mine who was

like a tech

attacked a techie person

and I'd had this thought like after big

brother I thought who am I

and where am I gonna go and it could all

end and as the person that was

providing the roof and the food on the

table it was on like me I had to think

of my next step what was I going to do

I'm not sure how long television is

going to last I mean it's still going

which is amazing for me but

I thought I need to get into technology

and the internet and I need to go online

and I came up with an idea for

I thought about it in terms of an

Exhibition Center but you could put that

online where

you would have everything from money

advice personal advice mental advice

um kids advice I went and talked to a

few people about it and for whatever

reason it didn't happen

but it wasn't meant to happen I tried to

get it off the ground for like two or

three years I tried to make it a TV

program I tried to make it an exhibition

I tried to make it an online thing and

you know when you're

swimming against the tide with an idea

and at some point you've just got to

take your hands off the steering wheel

and go like that wasn't meant to happen

but then I got offered long lost family

now long lost family I've been filming

that program now for 13 years wow it

makes me feel so good that show and I've

helped so many people

on it which has been so wonderful to be

part of that moment in their life where

they learn something that's been a niche

that they couldn't scratch for years and

years and we can provide that scratch

um so I always think well just start

walking in that direction

and something else will come along but

never just sit down and wait

you know I've never sat down and thought

Oh I'm just gonna I'm just gonna stay

here and and wait for something to

happen to me I've got no embarrassment

or Shame about emailing a TV company or

a head of a TV company and going have

you thought about this what about this

can I present that if it happens can I

do this I've I'm literally begging ITV

to let me present mid-life love Island

I could fill a villa

in love island with middle-aged people

with the best backstories you have ever

heard in your life they've lived a life

they're widows they're people who have

been through horrific divorces they are

people who have split up with somebody

and decided they want to try going out

with somebody the same sex as them

they're like interesting people I'd

watch

that's really interesting yeah and I was

like I need to present it please what

are they saying they said oh we're

looking at something else that's quite

similar we might consider you for that

well if I hadn't sent them that email in

the first place they wouldn't have

thought about me for the other show

Maybe

you've got to make opportunities happen

they never just come to you

keep walking I'm always talking to my

kids just keep walking something will

come kind of form

build the foundations and just keep

walking as you're walking you're laying

more and more path

don't sit and wait for the path to be

laid because it'll never come to you

there's this word manifestation you've

used in this conversation what role and

what does that mean to you you know

you're talking there about

proactively like attacking the day I I

almost liken it to um the analogy I've

given before is when you get in your car

in the morning you set the sat nav which

is the manifestation but then you've got

to drive if you just do one if you just

drive you're gonna get lost if you just

set the satellite if you're going to be

in your garage all day you have to do

both together you've talked about how

you attack like send the email make the

phone call pass to the person at MTV but

then what role does like the

manifestation play

in all of that it's interesting because

you said you've got it's all very well

putting it in the sat nav is the

manifestation but then you've got to

drive the car yeah but in in my mind I

see that if you start if you know where

you're going

your car self-drives

like

you you almost are always walking in the

direction because you can see it

I know that at some point I will do this

interesting so I've sent this email to

this woman

um and I've just told you about it

because this this was a manifestation

it's triggered my memory that I've told

this I'm going to send a follow-up email

today

now is that is is my car self-driving it

kind of is like because I've been

telling you about a manifestation

because I had it in the first place

you've just reminded me I'm going to

send the email that for me is the

difference though because there's so

many people and we all know them that

have

sofa ideas they'll turn to you while

they're watching yeah I've got this idea

for this TV show sometimes they're

really good right fantastic but it

doesn't matter because they don't have

the the next bit which is I'm gonna get

up and send an email and like you've

just said I'm gonna send another one

that for me is turning the key in the in

the ignition yes maybe yeah some there's

a lot of people that are going oh I've

sat now for Tom Tom this is where I want

to go someday and then they just relax

back into the chair in the car and

nothing happens and then there's some

people I meet tends to be the people

that sit here with me that took that

weird kind of um nothing to lose first

step and you go that was rude or you go

oh really you just like all showed up

there or you just begged them on email

and those are the people that I tend to

sit here with

so Anita Roddick started the body shop

and she lit kind of my

um lit the wick of kind of interest in

lit the fuse I mean of my interest in

activism and she was saying

um you know if you don't think that you

have the power as one person then you've

never been to bed with a mosquito she

said be as annoying as a mosquito and I

was like

I think that's me I am as annoying as a

mosquito

and that when I meet somebody and I bet

you're the same Stephen when you see a

kid and a kid comes up to you and goes

Stephen can I have your number because

I've got an idea and I want to come and

Pitch it to you you would go yes

absolutely whereas other people might

think oh I can't do that because he's

Stephen Bartlett or I'll have to email

him or oh no I've seen him on the Telly

I can't approach him but when you meet a

bullsey kid yeah and they go can I come

and Shadow you for a day or

um uh give me a number I wanna you think

yeah sure because I always respect the

the tenacity and the asking I see myself

in it a little bit exactly yeah I

remember I was doing this podcast one

day and um I was recording with a guest

and then I got up to walk out and the

the person they brought with them in

their Entourage was their nepheus and

she goes to me hi Stephen I know this is

I know you're leaving and I know you've

just interviewed my auntie but I have a

podcast I've just started and I would

like you to be on it so can we record it

now did you say yes I was like of course

I was like let's sit down and we sat

down and recorded for like 45 minutes

for her podcast stop

isn't it she and she's killing it now

like when I say killing it she's

actually killing it she's like killing

it now but I remember doing a post on

LinkedIn about that moment tagged her in

it and said I just respect the ask you

know because my life has been riddled

with moments as I saw in yours where I

just sent the email had nothing to lose

whilst sucking stealing pizzas on my own

in Manchester what did I have to lose at

that point by just sending loads of

emails I remember Sam's I think it was

Panasonic or Samsung gave me free

cameras I sent an email they were like

here's all the free cameras to start

your business when I was 14 I sent these

emails to this vending machine company

they fitos secondary school with free

vending machines that we made profit

from so I I'd learned the power of just

like asking

nothing to lose maybe my ego might take

an out but he gives a [ __ ] I've got

nothing and what's the worst that could

happen but I think also when the worst

has happened yeah you're not scared of

it it's happened yeah yeah

you know getting a no to me is just a

yes that hasn't happened yet I'm always

like oh

you're saying No but

you mean maybe you mean maybe give me an

ask again

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tweets about your

the podcast I sat here with Professor

Galloway Scott Galloway and he told me

about the Ark of Happiness where he says

you know his idea was that our happiness

kind of looks like a bit like a smile

where kind of start happy at the start

of our life it gets a little bit

difficult in the middle and then at the

end the kind of 50-ish age when we go

into that second spring it's it's happy

again typically again this is not the

same for everybody it's kind of a

generalization but at the bottom of the

Arc of Happiness when things are most

difficult is when we start losing people

in our lives that we love

and I know 10 years ago you lost

Caroline your half-sister

um

talk to me about that that experience

and also

generally the process of how you've

dealt with that grief hmm

it was definitely the worst thing that

ever happened to me still to this day

like the worst

so I told you a little bit about

Caroline with my mum and that she she

was six years older than me

and she lived in Paris she was the

result of my mum's pregnancy when she

was 16.

and she endured a lot

well a lifetime with our mum and that

was very hard on her and she was left

with many Hang-Ups from that

of um she was she she used to find it

hard to be completely honest all the

time so she'd tell big exaggerations

about things or make up stories but this

is because she'd had to lie to cover for

my mum her entire life

not all the time but just she'd make her

life a bit more exciting

by telling untruths and I I don't want

to do her a disservice in her death

because we talked about this when she

was alive and I go is that a Porky and

she'd start laughing she'd go well it

did happen but this didn't happen you

know but it was just trying

I understood her and she understood me

and all my defects of character

and she knew exactly why I did things

and she was an instiller person quite an

insular person and her favorite thing

would be to go she lived with me always

we had six dark years when we didn't

live together but she lived with me when

I had a two bed flat in Hammersmith

and

we were very friendly together like I

just understood everything about her and

she understood all my idiosyncrasies and

I got all of hers

and so her favorite thing in the evening

you know I love socializing I'm a people

person I like going out I am touch

she would be TV dinner food on lap foie

gras a ton of butter French bread gloss

of red wine spliff

if I would say to her do you want to

come for a walk around the garden she

was French fully French so her mum and

her dad were friends

and I'd say do you want to come for a

walk around the garden she'd go no

you know exercise not her thing

absolutely hilarious person so funny

but very secretive

and I was blah I would tell her

everything she would tell me nothing

it was very annoying

um I would walk around naked

in front of her all the time I go

come I'd find out I go Caroline come

come and talk to me when I have a bath I

mean I was so annoying I was an annoying

little sister right until the very end

so she'd come over to the house and

she'd sit on the floor and I'd go like

talk to me tell me everything what's

happened at work blah blah blah and then

I'd share something I'd talk about a

problem and she'd help me iron it out

she was amazing so good to talk to so

kind of wise always a bit painfully

honest with me yeah but you know you're

overstepping the Mark or you know you

shouldn't be doing this she's the only

person that could do that with me

but because she was so secretive things

were going a bit arise so she just had

her 50th birthday

and

she

sort of walked into a door once a door

was half open and she kind of walked

into I was like didn't you see that I

thought she's been

um and then she was sitting at the table

and she was talking to me and she had a

glass in her right her left hand it was

her left hand she had a glass in her

left hand and now she was talking to me

I was watching the glass her left hand

was tipping further and further over to

the side and I was watching the glass

and the water was just and I went

Caroline your hand and she went oh but

she had to look at it to tip it back up

and I was thinking that's very weird and

she became a bit clumsy and I thought

too much weed or menopause or something

she became a bit forgetful

she kept going off menopause I can't

remember what's going on

she had a sore back and she'd fallen

over we'd been in the garden and she'd

fallen over

and she kept going you know and I fell

over my back's like still not right she

used to cane the Advil I mean she was

terrible with like painkillers

she used to take sleeping pills you know

she's slightly medicate herself weed

sleeping pills Advil like all the time I

just thought she's on another planet

but it got to the point where I thought

something is up and I'd invited her to

come to France with us for half term she

always came on holiday with us and she

said no

which was very unlike her and I was like

are you sure she went I just want to

stay here I'm so tired I don't feel just

feel like I've got flu coming on I was

like okay

I got back she'd have flu all week she'd

been in bed all week I was like whoa

Caroline like but I think maybe you

should go see something she said no I

think I'm coming out of it then the next

morning

someone had been walking past our window

and they said

um to be nothing you should come I can

hear Caroline shouting for help so I've

got the key I opened the door she'd been

on the floor all night

um she was in her pajamas she soiled

herself she couldn't move she was

paralyzed down half her body and I was

like it's a stroke

quick call the ambulance the quicker we

can get our scene the better the rat car

comes the you know stroke X but he walks

in he goes

I don't think this is a stroke I was

like but it must be a stroke because

half her body's gone like this is what

happens in a stroke

they get her in an ambulance I'm now a

bit worried

I'm thinking if this isn't a stroke what

is going on

but I was just trying to be strong for

her I just go it's gonna be fine we're

going to get you to hospital and they're

going to get it sorted it's probably

you know bit menopause bit of whatever

maybe you're smoking too much we get out

of the hospital test after test after

test and I was thinking brain scan I

understand

and then they said we'd like to do a

chest x-ray and I was thinking why are

you doing a chest x-ray

if it's clearly neurological

or she goes to the chest x-ray and then

about an hour later we get a doctor come

in and he goes

we've got something to tell you

we're both thinking yeah we're in a e

right

and he goes yeah you have primary lung

cancer in both lungs

and you have two brain tumors it's

metastasized to your brain and the pain

in your back is where your lung cancer

is then going into your bone

so you probably have bone cancer as well

I was like

like that can't be right and she went

lung cancer and then she looked at me

and she went

it's all my fault

when it's not your fault

like it's not your fault you've got lung

cancer

and she could see her just going tick

tick tick smoking all those years

smoking they're smoking the weed and I

was like stop stop we need to think like

what are we gonna do like okay

what are we gonna do in the meantime I

have to I just said I'm just gonna go

and call

um my mum and dad I'm just gonna go and

call them and just let them know what's

happening

and I called them I

couldn't breathe I was like in the

corridor going I think I think I'm I

think I'm gonna have like some kind of

attack like I can't

I can't process it I don't understand

what's happening

that I think they're telling me because

they hadn't said the word die I think

they're telling me Caroline's dying like

she's got so much cancer that she's

dying

I said I'll I'll keep you posted I go

freshen up my face I there was a nurse

there that I've seen a couple of times

since when I've taken my kids into a e

and I always give her a bit of a special

hug because

she came up to me in the corridor

and she was like are you okay and I was

like I'm not okay she's like what's

going on I said well my sister's got

this and this and she was like really

sorry she just gave me a hug and that

was it and then she went but I've never

forgotten it you know that hug I needed

touch I needed someone to

I went back in kind of tried to dry off

my eyes or what have you and we just sat

there in silenced really and then lots

of people came in and were looking at

her

one of the saddest things was someone

lifted up her back to put the

stethoscope on the on her back and

listened to her

and

I saw another sign that sounds so weird

but I saw a black head on her back and

it was massive and it had grown into

kind of a a saw it looked horrible

and I thought

no one sees you

no one

no one sees you naked

no one

you don't let anyone in like I am the

closest and even I am not in

because you are so protective of that

painful child she'd never done the work

she'd never got to na or AAA she wasn't

really an addict

I mean you know she smoked a lot of weed

but I didn't I didn't see her as that

she wasn't an alcoholic she wasn't

but she

she had she'd put a fence around her

and everybody was at the fence and she

had so many friends that loved her so

much but nobody got inside the fence and

I it made me so

so sad

and I thought I'm [ __ ] climbing over

the fence and I'm gonna get in

for however long you've got left because

you are not shutting me out we had the

best talks she was in hospital for a

month we had the most

amazing

brilliant talks like I thought God why

is it that when you're dying

we get to do this why did we not do this

a year ago like if anybody's listening

and they feel like they've got a

relative that they want to get into or

get do it now don't wait for someone to

die

because

the best seven weeks of my life with my

sister were those last seven weeks of

hers

and so she had a month in the hospital

and then

we I said I want to get her home

to her Cottage

I had to go around and find all her weed

and it was everywhere I literally could

have

you know started dealing she had that

much weed squirreled away I think she'd

forgotten half of the places that she'd

had it squirreled away

I chucked it all away

um I wasn't I didn't find that hard at

all like I wasn't I was never interested

in weed so it was easy for me I

um set up her house got the plumber in

put in things for her to hold

um occupational therapy came and told me

all the places where I need to put stuff

harnesses hospital beds blah blah blah

set up her whole Cottage got her back

home

and just hung out with her and we got a

carer and she she had chemo booked in

but the first chemo was booked in for

two days after she died

and we thought she had six months we

wrote a bucket list

and on the bucket list

was

um

just the sweetest stuff like go to

France one more time and

um see the kids we tried to make as much

of it happen get loads of her friends

down a lot of the stuff we couldn't do

again like why do people do bucket lists

when they're dying like do Bucket List

when you're alive and also I would

challenge anybody listening to this

podcast because this was a real thing

for me

if somebody said to me

Davina you have got

six months to live

what's like the most important thing to

you now

like what what really matters

don't wait for somebody to say that

you've got six weeks to live

say I love I say I love you to all of my

friends all of the people that I love

Non-Stop

check in with people call people make

sure they're okay spend time with people

make the decisions where you think if I

was to die tomorrow is this the decision

that I'd be happy with equally if you've

got somebody very toxic in your life and

they are really ruining your life

you know if you had six months to live

you would be the first thing I'd do is

let go of this toxic person do not wait

you know do it now and you deserve to be

happy

you deserve to not have this toxic

person in your life and Caroline

again I guess you know I'm always

looking for lessons she taught me so

much in her death she was so brave

she never once complained she never once

got frightened

she never cried and she tried to look

after me and one of my most I'm sorry

Stephen I know I'm talking a lot but

there was one moment I do want to tell

you about so obviously no one had ever

seen the naked and she had this amazing

caracal Claire oh my God

she was

the best ever

she was the most gentle she understood

respect

and dignity

and she knew Caroline almost straight

away she knew what kind of person she

was and Caroline would not let me

get her undressed or ready for bed

it was like I don't want you to see me

naked

and the night that she went to sleep for

the final time and then three days later

she died

she was doing this kind of knitting

thing with her hands she was really

uncomfortable you could see there was

something something had changed a bit

and I was like hey you okay and Claire

didn't come until maybe seven or eight

in the evening to to put her to bed with

the district nurse and um

and she said I I want to go to bed now I

know Claire was there but she needed

somebody else to put her to bed because

there was hoists and everything

and I said well look Claire and I could

do it but it would mean that it would be

me

and she went

okay but laughing and I was like are you

serious and she went yes and I went oh

my God Caroline thank you

thank you but at the same time I was

like well you know I'm gonna cry like

this is the

this is Mecca I've arrived you know

this is my pilgrimage to my sister I've

I crawled over the fence and I'm now at

her body

and I said to her would it be all right

if I did the dipra base because I needed

to dip a base her before she got into

bed so she didn't get bed sores and

that's like moisturizing every inch of

her body

and she went yes but you're not gonna do

it again like this is the only time I'm

going to let you do it once

and I said

and I got to she had the softer skin I'm

very furry

my my sister had no hair like at all she

was bald as a coot and her arms and

stuff was so soft I got the difference I

was like oh my God Caroline your arms

are so soft and she was laughing away

she's going oh my God you are ridiculous

it's gonna this is amazing

and I got to cream her whole body

and it felt like

she'd given that to me and it was

hideous for her

and even when she was dying

she gave me

a bit

of herself that I had never had before

and it was so nice

and she went to sleep that night and

actually in the middle of the night then

they came

and they gave her a bit more morphine he

said okay she was really distressed she

was calling me mummy

and holding onto my hand she'd never

been like that before

and she

that gave her some morphine and it

calmed her down a bit and then

for three days she just slept basically

but I was with her when she went and it

was really lovely

and I kept talking to her the whole time

because they say your hearing is the

last thing that goes

and I just wanted her to know I wasn't

crying I was just trying to be really

strong for her and I kept saying to her

I'm gonna be fine because I think out of

everything

she was worried about me do you know

what I mean like that was her last

thought like are you gonna be all right

because she knew how much of a backbone

she was for me that's what I meant about

it being a reciprocal agreement like it

wasn't just me taking care of her she

was taking care of me and she it was a

reciprocal agreement and she wanted to

make sure that I was going to be all

right and I kept going I'm going to be

fine

and I talked out all the time but in the

last five years so I had a huge grieving

thing seven years after she died I went

like

all summer she died on the first of

August and all summer I couldn't shake

off this

cloud

and as somebody online interestingly had

said often seven years after someone's

died it's like a bang and I was like

this is what's happening to me seven

years like so painful again

since then you know and me being in a

good place I keep telling her I keep

going oh man like I wish

I wish you were here like so I could

show you how great it is she'd be living

with me now and

you know she'd be so

happy we'd be good I imagine myself I

always thought that I'd be willing her

around I always imagined she'd probably

get emphysema and she'd have an oxygen

tank and um but I'd tell her that I'd go

if you carry on doing that you're going

to get employment I said but I'm happy

to wheel you around I am we're going to

live by the seaside somewhere and you

and me can be a couple of old grannies

and I'll

you know I'll take care of you

but I didn't never thought she'd die at

50. but she was a great person

and um

but her

her passing my dad you know when he died

he had Alzheimer's and I it was expected

we knew it was coming we'd spent 10

years preparing for it it was still

horrific but he was 78.

and

I knew he'd lived an amazing life but I

still felt my sister had so much more to

give you know

foreign

what is that process of grief like uh

you know I ask these questions because

I've been fortunate enough to not go

through that Arc of grief yeah and I

think about it it's been like I think it

haunts me a little bit in my head

sometimes